Latest / Atmosphere with Emily Gracey / Sunsets: The Science Behind the Magic
Transcript
- Emily Gracey: The sun is getting low. The light has changed. Everything around you is softer now. The edges of the clouds are starting to glow, and the sky above you is slowly shifting from blue to gold to pink. Maybe you're standing on a beach. Maybe you're sitting on a porch with a drink in your hand. Or maybe you're driving home after a long day and you look out the window at exactly the right moment. And for a few minutes, you stop. You look up. You're not the only one. There's something kind of primal about sunsets. They can inspire artists. They can spark romance. They can turn a group of strangers into friends, and sometimes even evoke applause. It brings people together. But maybe what makes a sunset so powerful isn't just what's happening in the sky. Maybe it's what's happening inside of us. I think the wonderful thing about a sunset is it kind of gives you whatever you need. It can be the perfect ending to a perfect day. If you're on having a great time on vacation, it's just another pretty backdrop to the fun you're having. Or the comfort you crave. If you're going through a hard time, it's A moment of peaceful reflection and a reminder of kind of how big the world is and kind of gives you perspective. The beautiful thing about sunsets is that it just means whatever it needs to mean to that person at that moment. But why does the sky turn orange and red? Why do clouds make a sunset so much more spectacular? And what exactly is happening when, if you're lucky enough, you see that elusive flash of green just as the sun disappears? Today on Atmosphere, we are discovering the world's best sunset locations with a travel expert. We'll learn the recipe for a jaw dropping show. And we'll learn the atmospheric physics at play every evening as our star sets on the horizon. I'm meteorologist Emily Gracie and this is Atmosphere, a podcast where science becomes conversation. Each week I sit down with the experts behind the forecasts, the research, and the headlines to explore not just the science, but the human stories behind it. Through natural curiosity, we're making science more understandable, more relatable, and hopefully bringing a little more comfort in how we experience the world around us. Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Atmosphere. I'm meteorologist Emily Gracie. My husband and his friend David have been asking me to do a sunset episode for months, maybe even years. I kept putting it off because sunsets are very visual and this is an audio platform. But then I actually thought about it. A sunset is never just visual, it's emotional. It has scientific explanation behind it, too. And this week is my husband's birthday, so Here you go, Troy. Happy birthday. My first guest today is someone who has traveled the world in search of a good sunset. Cameron Hewitt is the director of content at Rick Steves Europe. He spends around 100 days a year on the road, mostly across Europe, updating guidebooks you've probably seen on a shelf somewhere. He's also, by his own admission, become something of a sunset aficionado. We get into what makes a really great sunset, where he has seen the most memorable ones. And why we react to a ball of light dipping below the horizon like it's something rare when really it happens every day. Later in the episode, I'll bring in an atmospheric expert to break down the real science, why the sky turns those specific colors, and what actually is going on with the green flash, that fast, easy-to-miss flicker that some people chase for years without catching. Here's my chat with Cameron Hewitt. All right, Cameron Hewitt. This is exciting. super pumped to have you on Atmosphere today. I could probably question you for days on travel because you are a wealth of information, but we're focusing in on kind of the sunsets and the sunrises of the world. So welcome. Thanks for coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yay. All right. So you work for Rick Steves. That's a big deal. Rick Steves is like the go to when it comes to travel. And you focus a lot on Europe, but You're an expert worldwide when it comes to travel, right? Yeah. I'm yes. I have my dream job. I do work for Rick Steves and our company is called officially Rick Steves Europe. We really do specialize in Europe, but of course, because I'm a traveler, I've also traveled a lot just personally, kind of worldwide and across the US and Canada. So I have a pretty, pretty broad, broad base of knowledge. So what do you do for Rick Steves? I'm the director of content at Rick Steves Europe. and what that basically means is I spend about a hundred days each year. Traveling all around Europe. I'm mainly writing and updating our guidebooks, our best-selling guide books. I've also worked as a tour guide on our bus tours. I've helped work with some of his TV shows that you might have seen on public television. So and then back in the office in the Seattle area, we're just constantly putting out content to help make sure people are really well equipped and well informed about what's going on currently in Europe. Awesome. okay. Well, this is exciting. I just got back from a big Europe trip and we were just chatting a little bit before the recording about that. today we're really focused on sunsets. but before we dive into that, I wanna can I quiz you on some of like because you just have a really cool life. Do you know how many countries are? If you bet, sure. Yeah, yeah. How many countries have you been to? You know, I stopped counting a while ago. I think it's around 45, and most of those are in Europe. I've been to almost every country in Europe. There's one or two left. One of them I'm hoping to get to next year. there any like surprises, places you haven't been that people would be like, what? Like Canada. Yeah, no, I've been to Canada. I haven't been south of in the in the Americas, I haven't been south of Mexico. I'd love to go down to well, I've been to Costa Rica, I guess, but I'd love to go down to South America. I've never been to Argentina or Brazil or any of those places. In Asia, my wife and I finally made it to Japan last year, but that's the first time we've been to any of the Asian countries, even though we're Seattle, Pacific Rim. We have pretty easy access. And so yeah, those are probably the big the big surprises. Okay, you said you travel about a hundred days a year. Yep. That's a lot. It is a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I by the end of those hundred days, I'm feeling it. I usually split it up over a few different trips. Gotcha. where do you keep going back to? Like favorite spots. You know, my specialty is Central and Eastern Europe. So places like the Poland and the Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia. I'll be going to Croatia in just a few weeks here. people are always surprised. My favorite country is actually Slovenia. I was just there again a month ago. and man, it's just this little tiny country used to be in Yugoslavia. It's an alpine country. So it's right up tucked against the Austrian and the Italian Alps. And it's this little tiny country with just wonderful people, beautiful scenery, great food, great culture. but I have really a lot of opportunities to go all over Europe. So I love going to the UK, I love going to Italy, I love going to Greece. I've been able to to get around Europe quite a bit. So just a little background information on this episode. I my husband's been hounding me for years to do an episode about sunsets. And I've kind of been like, you know, it's a really visual thing to do for an audio podcast. But then I thought about it and I thought there's so much human connection and there's so much science connection. And that's that's what this podcast is about. So I want to talk to you about not just sunsets and how they look, but also like how they feel, because I'm guessing you've seen some pretty spectacular sunsets in your travel, right? Yeah, I didn't start out as a sunset aficionado, but the more you travel, the more you become one, right? Because when you do find yourself in front of a spectacular sunset, you realize, wow, this could be a real highlight of the whole trip. And so I've been lucky to be in a lot of the right places at the right times. And you're right, there's something, there's something kind of primal about sunsets and it brings people together in a lot of the places that we'll be talking about. they can actually be overly crowded sometimes because everyone wants to be there for the sunset. So it's sort of a communal experience. it's incredibly beautiful. you the sky is turning colors that the sky is not supposed to be. so there's sort of little there's a miraculous moment for, you know, 10 or 20 minutes if you're lucky, where where sort of everything comes together. And I think it also there's something cosmic about it. It makes us feel first of all, we have a sense of the universe. When you can actually see the sun like slowly curving around the horizon, especially if you're on the water, there's something about you kind of understand how big the universe is and you also understand how small we are in the universe. I always feel very small when I'm watching the sunset. And I so I think there's something very primal about it. Yeah. A little reminder that we're not the center of the universe, that there's something else here. okay so you've seen so many. Can you tell me like what are some of the elements that go into a good sunset or sunrise? Yeah, and I appreciate being asked to do this podcast because I'd never really thought about some of these things. It's sunsets are something that you just kind of feel. And I thought, well, this is a good exercise to think about what's what's great about sunsets and what makes a good sunset. I actually spent some time scrolling through 15 years worth of pictures on my photo roll just to remind myself of some of my favorite sunsets. It was it's really handy. You just search for sunsets now and it'll pull up all your sunset pictures. yeah, I I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think a lot of us know intuitively. What makes for a great sunset, but I actually decided to like come up with a list, right? So first of all, it helps if you're facing the west. I've been in some very beautiful places where I was really excited for the sunset. And then I would realize, wait a minute. If you look west here, you're seeing, you know, mountains or a wall of of buildings or something. So you want to be facing the west. That's pretty obvious. I think water really helps a lot. I don't think you have to have water for a great sunset, but when I think of kind of the really spectacular ones, water is great. And then sort of interestingly, Mountains are often not great for sunsets. They can be, you can get lucky. But you know, I've been in places from the Swiss Alps to Palm Springs. And if you're really up close to the mountains, it's spectacular. But the sun dips very early behind the mountains. I always get confused in these places because I'm checking the sunset time. And then I see the sun actually going behind the mountains 30 minutes earlier, right? Yeah. So you can't time it. and so mountains are maybe not great for sunsets, although I have if if if the If you wait a little bit and the light is just right and there's some nice clouds, it can help. And then the other thing I thought of is actually clouds are great for sunsets, which is again something that is sort of we all intuit that, but I've had days in Greece where it's this beautiful, sunny, perfectly clear day, blue skies. And I think to myself, that'll be a great sunset tonight. And then you go watch the sunset, and the the part where the sun goes in the horizon is beautiful. But then you don't get that a spectacular after show where you get the bright colors on the clouds because there are no clouds. And so actually, yeah, weirdly enough, clouds are better for sunsets. And I've had in a lot of places really disappointing, cloudy, gloomy, rainy days where I'm just like, well, this day's a wash in terms of taking pictures or beautiful things. And suddenly the clouds just break up on the horizon minutes before the sunset. And then some of the best sunsets I've ever seen are on. Miserable days because if you get lucky and you get the reflection on all those clouds of all those beautiful colors, that's that's when you get a really special sunset. Okay, this goes along with my theory that like the unexpected sunset is is a good sunset. So when you go to a place where it's supposed to be famous for sunsets, your expectations are so high. And then like a cloudy day, you've had no fun, and then You know, this is the highlight of your day. Is it gonna feel like a better sunset because your day was just kind of crap before that? For sure. Yeah. Cause there's the and I'm very I'm outside all day long running around doing my guidebook work and I love taking pictures and it's always almost always better to take pictures when it's nice and sunny out. And so if it's been a really crummy day and I'm having to wear my raincoat and I take almost no pictures because it's so gloomy, yeah, it's like the this this day is. a real disappointment. And so then you get that bonus sunset at the end. I keep thinking about one of my favorite sunsets ever. It wasn't about the place exactly, but my my parents live along the Oregon coast. And we were down there around Thanksgiving. It was like 20 years ago. And we were just driving home from we'd gone and gone down to Florence or something. And we were driving back along the coast. And it was one of these days where it had just been cold and crummy and drizzly. But we just got lucky and as we kind of we happened to be driving on this road where you could see the whole sky and you could see the ocean. And the sun hit those all those clouds at the perfect angle. And it's just the most spectacular combination of colors I've ever seen. And it was certainly not something I was planning in November, you know. so yeah, there's something about it sort feels like a bonus. It feels really special. Do does it matter is another part of the recipe who you're with when you're watching the sunset? I think so. That not I hadn't thought about that, but you bet. Yeah. I think my favorite sunsets are when my wife's with me or when I'm with my family. That said, I've had some, you know, sometimes like you, like you were alluding to, because a sunset's a communal experience. Sometimes if I'm traveling alone for a few weeks, you kind of if you're all standing around at the top of a fortress in Croatia waiting for the sun to set, you kind of start to get to know the people waiting there with you. And so if you're if you're traveling by yourself, it can be a great way to sort of feel like you're a part of of a community almost. but of course, then you have that, you know, if you have someone with you, you have someone to share it with and to share the memory with. Okay, something that always cracks me up is the clap. When people clap after a sunset. Yeah. So where have you like seen people clap? Or are certain countries more likely to clap than others? I I would bet Americans are like a a clapping crowd when the sun goes down. It's it's a good question. You remind me it's there are certain European cultures where when the plane lands, people clap and it's the same thing. It's like, well, the palate can't hear you. He's he's up at the cocks bet. And it's more just like, well, it was really nice that we didn't die on that plane, you know? Yeah, yeah, I know. It's always alarming on a plane. You're right. It's like, who are we clapping? We're clapping for the universe. We're we're clapping for but but no, I think it's I find it's people on vacation, really on vacation. So we're we're if places not in Europe that I like to go on vacation include Hawaii or Puerto Vallarta Mexico, which are also both great for sunsets. And then when I think about places where people clap. Or they ooh and they it's not always clapping, it's ooh. but yeah, I think it's people on vacation because you're escaping your day to day and you're really relaxed and you're really, you know, something about traveling and getting out of your daily routine really helps you be open to the world and kind of be present, you know. And there's no better thing to do when you're want to be present than being in the sunset because it's like there will never be another sunset like the one you're about to watch. There never has been another sunset exactly like the one you're about to watch. And so when you're on vacation, I think you're in the right headspace for for that sort of thing. Hmm. And maybe when alcohol is involved too. I was on a I was on a beach in Menemsha in Martha's Vineyard and I think that played a role in the clap. I think you're right. And then the other the other thing. I'm sure you've heard of the green flash, you know, this is this phenomenon. Yeah. And I think that's the thing that really if people are enjoying the sunset and then they that's when it's sort of like you're watching the fireworks and there's a little bit of oing and a ing, and then the finale comes up, and that's when everyone kind of goes nuts. And the places where I've heard the most appreciative reaction to a sunset is when you get that green flash. speaking of drinking, there's actually San Diego actually has a brewery called Green Flash Brewing Company because it's such a phenomenon down there. Okay, you're also a photographer. And what you see and what you document can be very different sometimes. I this is a problem I have. And then also there's kind of this internal turmoil of do I even take a picture? Do I sit here and relax and enjoy? So tell me about the photography side of things if you do want to take a good picture. Absolutely. And I l photography is a huge part of what I do. It's sort of a it's more of a hobby. My mainly I'm doing writing and I'm taking notes and I'm writing it up. I do take a lot of pictures that end up in our guidebooks and in our socials. but I'm it's sort of for me, I I do a lot more photography than I need to just cause I love it. And any serious photographer knows that the subject of any photograph is actually the light. It's not what you think it is, it's how the light is playing off of the thing that you're taking the picture of. And so sunsets are kind of a particularly complicated version of that because again, it's always changing. You can't anticipate it. If I'm in a town that has a famous landmark or there's a particular mountain like the Matterhorn in in Switzerland. You've kind of located early in the trip and then you can kind of keep an eye on it and you watch the sun change. So you know that's the right moment, that's the best light today to get that shot. But the sunset, you just don't know. You just have to show up and be ready and take what comes. I also just love the time just before and after the sunset. it's the magic hour, you know. Because if you go early in the day, even if it's a beautiful, especially if it's a beautiful, bright, sunny day, you get really high contrast shadows. So as a photographer, if I'm trying to capture a picture of a square or a street in the middle of the day, even if it's perfectly lit by the sun, half of the shot will be in in the shade. But in the late in the day, as before and after the sun goes down, the light kind of evens out and it gets really soft and the sky is sort of glowing. There's not one source of light, sort of the whole sky becomes a source of light. So some of my favorite photographs have been in the 30 minutes before and after sunset. so I actually, you know, I I I'm very busy. I don't have time to prioritize the sunset. everywhere I go, but more and more I find if I'm booking a reservation for dinner, even a few weeks ahead, I'll actually look up the time of the sunset to make sure that I'm available both for the sunset and also for the time before and after, because those are some of my my favorite photographs. And then you just show up and and hope you get it. I'm I'm with you. I I don't necessarily think you want to see the whole sunset through your camera. And there's always that, even for me, it's always like, how many pictures do I take? How much do I just let myself enjoy it? In the moment. And I think it's good to find the balance. and a lot of times sunset photographs, sometimes they turn out way better than you think. And sometimes something that seems so epic in person is kind of disappointing when you look at it later. And that's where I think the clouds come in. So I guess one tip is my best photographs of the sunset are really of the clouds around the sunset. it when I look back at pictures I've taken of the actual sunset, if I'm in a place looking west over the water, when you're actually seeing the sun dip into the water, there's something so majestic about experiencing it. But when I look back at it, it's just this little red glowing dot. Right. And it's so far away, it doesn't photograph that well. But the really great pictures are the in fact, sometimes I wait for the sun to set and then I turn my camera up and I get the clouds because it's after the sunset that the clouds get those incredible colors. so that's I guess that would be the tip. Focus on the clouds rather than the sun setting itself. Gotcha. And do you recommend not putting people in the picture with the sunset? I see a lot of people trying to get in the photo and then it's like, what are you focused on? And if you tap with your camera on your phone, if you tap on the sunset, it looks good, but then you can't see the person. If you tap on the person, the sunset looks bad. Yeah. One of I hate to say one of my pet peeves in Europe is people who are taking pictures, especially if they're blocking, you know, blocking a whole street and they're getting in everyone's way, taking a picture with a bright source of light right behind them. Because I just having taken a lot of terrible pictures in my life, I know. Most likely you're just gonna have a shadow in front of something. And that's often what sunset photographs look like. There again, though, if you get an angle rather than having, here's me with the sunset right behind me, if you take it at an angle, I have a you know great shot. We were in Hawaii with my parents for Christmas a couple of years ago, and I have a beautiful shot at the sunset, and it's not of the sunset. I just turned my camera 45 degrees up the beach. And it was us waiting for the sunset. And that again, the light in the sky was just perfect and they were really well lit. And you don't see the sunset in the picture, but you can tell it was taken at sunset. And so I think don't if you try to shoot any subject next to a light source like a setting sun, it's not gonna look good later on. Yeah, they're backlit. okay. So Let's talk about specific locations because there are places around the world that are famous for sunsets and then huge crowds gather. Like some of them that come to mind for me are like Mallory Square and Key West, is one spot where, you know, I see the people clapping and everybody's excited. And and then like I've been to Santorini in Greece, and that's another spot where it was just huge crowds, and I was like, This must be spectacular. And then it was a crystal clear day. So it was like, it was good, but I've seen better. You know? So tell me some of the spots that kind of have these ingredients and places you've seen really good sunsets. And both of the places you just mentioned are on my list, by the way. So we're on the same wavelength, so to speak. I guess the first thing I would say, because you asked me to kind of think about great sunsets. And the first thing I would say is, yes, there are places known for their sunsets. I'll give you some ideas. But I really think y it's really about being lucky, being in the right place at the right time, when you happen to be there when the clouds and the sun are kind of in perfect alignment. So some of my favorite sunsets have not been in famous sunset locations. So I would say planning a whole trip around that, it's sort of like trying to plan a trip around the northern lights. If you get to see them, it's spectacular, but you could go all the way to Iceland for a week and it's cloudy and you never see them. So or they just aren't going on at that moment, you know. that said, I thought a lot about sort of my favorites. I'm gonna start off in Europe because that's really where I specialize, and there's a lot of great sunset locations in Europe. And Greece is on the list, but actually I thought about this carefully. Above Greece, at number one on my list, is Croatia, also on the on the Mediterranean there. I've traveled a ton in Croatia, and when I thought back, where are some of my favorite sunsets? Man, I've had some incredible ones in Croatia. there's the an island called Fod, H V-A-R. And there's a fortress right over the old town in the harbor. And every evening are people hike up to this fortress, and you want to be positioned right there to look out over the you've got the town, the rooftops, the harbor. And then this particular location has lots of little small islands just offshore. And so it's there's a lot of subject. If you're taking pictures, it's not just the sunset, it's the whole kind of scene. But even better than that, one of my absolute favorites is in Dubrovnik, which is down at the southern tip of Croatia. And in Dubrovnik, there's a mountain right behind this. Historic old wall town called Mount Surge. And there's a cable car that goes up. So in the evening, everyone kind of plans their evening around that and crowds onto the cable car. And I've had some really incredible ones because you're at the top of the mountain. You can see the coastline as far as the eye can see in both directions. The spectacular huge medieval wall town is just right at your feet. And then, like in the other island I mentioned, there's lots of little islands just offshore. So there's just so much to look at. and and it's just really, those are just spectacular places. And then just south of Croatia, if you're from Dubrovnik, if you drive an hour south to Montenegro, is another country. But there's some beautiful places there. The Bay of Kotor in Montenegro, there's a cable car and there's a twisty road that goes up to the top of the cliffs. Very similar. It's just it's about the sunset, but it's also about the amazing landscape around the sunset. Awesome. Okay. other spots? The next on my list is Greece, the one that you mentioned. And I've had some incredible sunsets in Greece, especially on the Greek islands. And some of them are really famous. You know, you mentioned Centorini, the especially the little village of Iat up at the tip of that island. Yeah, that's where it was. It was pretty crowded. Yeah. Yeah. The number one destination maybe in the world for sunsets. and then Mykonos is another famous island. There's a row of old windmills on a ridge that everyone goes there for the sunset. But I mean, I've been on little Greek islands that most people haven't heard of that also have spectacular places. And I always think it's not just the sunset, it's there's got to be kind of a nice setting, like the windmills and centerini or mykonos. So, for example, the island of Naxos has this old Portara. It's this old kind of squared off ancient gateway, basically. And that's the place where everyone kind of goes out on this little spit right near the old town. And if you angle yourself just right, that's that's great. And then there's another little island near Santorini called Philigondros, which I just love. It's a much lesser known island, a really kind of charming little getaway off the beaten path. And there's this very twisty path that leads very steeply up a rocky hill. And at the very top of the hill overlooking the whole little village is a giant church. So everyone goes up there at sunset. And from it's such a small island that from the hilltop you can literally see the entire island. You can see the whole island from one place. and so that's another, another great place. So those are just four examples of Greek islands where I've had amazing sunsets. Okay. All right. So Croatia, Greece, what's next? I've had some very beautiful sunsets in Italy. But you know, the thing about Italy is a lot of the main destinations are not on that west coast. So, even when you think of Venice, Florence, Rome, you know, Venice is on the water, but it's not fit really facing west. So you don't get them in those places. But I've just been, for example, in the Tuscan hills, in the hillsides of Tuscany. Sometimes you just get lucky and the clouds and the sun are just right, especially if you're at a viewpoint looking out over rolling hills and Cypress line driveways and kind of these romantic old villas. And suddenly all the clouds sort of light up with the perfect sunset. That's pretty great. Also in Italy. There's a very popular little chain of five little towns called the Cinquitera, which is on the Italian Riviera. And those are fantastic places for the sunset. Each town has its own kind of unique landscape, and they're all facing west. And depending on which town you're in, if you angle your camera just right, you get just some great shots where you again, it's great to get not just the sunset, but there's a town called Rio Maggiore. And if you're out at the harbor, you can actually get most of the town itself, kind of these randomly tall and short. multicolored buildings and this stone breakwater and then the sunset just beyond them, sort of dipping into the water beyond them is a really nice, really nice sunset. Hmm. I'm seeing a theme here where there's a lot of like, it's not just the sky, it's what's on the ground too. Yeah. There's something about the whole scene. Obviously just looking out on the sea and watching the sunset is is pretty amazing. But especially I think as a photographer, when you want to sort of take a great picture, it helps to have Things in the foreground and background. But you know, that can be a downside. We were talking about Santorini, I was talking about Dubrovnik. Some of these places are so popular because everyone wants to take the same picture, they can be almost it can almost become a distraction. There's a fine line, right? Where it can be fun to see the sunset with a bunch of other people, but if there's too many other people, it becomes a problem. So I'd say first figure out where the sunset is going to be. But then the other tip is if the place is too busy, too crowded. Maybe consider finding an alternative. So that IA in Santorini that we talked about is this northern village on the tip of this sort of crescent-shaped island. Everyone wants to be in IA for the sunset. And I've been there, I think a couple of times over the years at sunset. And it's just gotten the word's gotten out. And it's so well known that the the town starts to fill up an hour before sunset, people are showing up just to stake a claim. And if you kind of get caught up in it or cut it a little too close. You might find yourself kind of trapped in this little lane, like shuffling along with a human traffic jam and miss the sunset if you're not in the right place at the right time. It also means that buses to and from this town are completely crowded for the hours around sunset. Hotels were restaurants and bars and any kind of tourist services are just overloaded. so that's a case where I've I've seen the sunset from there a couple of times. And now when I go to Santorini, I actually don't want to go there. It was it was very pretty to see it. But it's a huge island and there's a huge swath of it that faces the west and gets great sunsets. And you could be a half mile down the road from that town and enjoy just as beautiful a sunset with zero crowds. yeah, I've been to I, that spot that you're talking about in Santorini. And the thing that cracked me up there were the photo shoots going on, like professional, like women who were on vacation and like somebody brought them a giant flowing dress that they're wearing and they like throw it in the wind and then they take their picture. There's there's this whole culture of like photography going on that local photographers are are taking pictures of tourists. It was wild to me. I had no idea. Well it's and it's not just like you said, not just photography, but costumed photography. I've seen that there in Dubrovnik people wear Game of Thrones costumes because a lot of Game of Thrones was filmed in Dubrovnik. So you see people dressed up like You know, Circe or something, or dressed up like one of the great characters. And then I remember we mentioned Naxos, the Portara in Naxos when I was there with my wife a couple of years ago at sunset. It was spectacular. But it's an ancient ruin. It's protected by the government and it's a very precious kind of cultural site. And there was there was one tourist there who was wearing this kind of Greek toga flowing dress with like the laurel wreath. And she was standing right at the edge of the marked-off area on the path. And just as the sunset, she stepped over the the rope into the protected area. And like you talk about people clapping at the sunset, everyone started booing at this person because it was like the costume, okay, we could look the other way, but now you're actually like breaking the law and like entering a a a a protected space for your photograph. And the the crowd turned on her pretty quickly and she didn't mind. She just took her picture and left. Yeah, all for the clicks. All right. okay, so where else? Where else should we go? so that's for Europe. I've had a lot of other great ones in Europe. and like I said, a lot of them are along the water, but not always. I've had some beautiful sunsets in Paris, especially you've got the big wide, the Seine River, this huge river in the middle. And if you're in the right place, it's not an ocean. But if you get some water, it can be and it's a very romantic city to begin with. So that I've had some great sunsets in Paris, the west coast of Portugal. There's a a town called Nazare, which is mainly famous as a surfing town. But it's this very charming beach town and and facing just due west. So that's another great place for the sunset. And there again, you can go up to the upper town looking down over the the beach in the lower town. And if you angle it right, you just feel like you're getting a whole scene, not just the sunset itself. going beyond Europe, I was thinking back on trips around the United States. for me, number one, and probably in the top top five in the world, I s we spend a lot of time in Hawaii. That's kind of our vacation destination. And I've enjoyed sunsets from Several Hawaiian islands. We go to Poipu Beach on the south shore of Kauai quite a bit and have enjoyed some great sunsets there. Maui has some great west facing beaches. the big island has what's interesting is they all have these great west-facing beaches. If you've been to Hawaii, if you spent time there, the the west and the south shore tends to be more gentle, and that's kind of where the swimming beaches are. And the north and the east shore tends to be rougher and more like surfing beaches. And so it really works out well that the best sort of mellow swimming beaches also generally are facing into the sunset. So those are great places to enjoy the sunset. Other spots in the US? Yeah, other spots in the US include the Oregon Coast. my my folks live down there and we've just had some incredible sunsets there. Again, it helps you think the public the Pacific Northwest is cloudy, which maybe makes it less appealing for a beach break during the day, but the clouds in the evening make for some really fantastic sunsets. And where I live here in Seattle, we're kind of an interesting situation because we do have water, but we also have the Olympic Mountains that are between us and the ocean. So we get some great sunsets, but you don't get to see the sun actually dipping below the horizon in the water like you would on the Oregon Coast. so I would say Seattle's kind of a mixed bag. San Diego has great sunsets. Of course you mentioned Key West has great sunsets. And I'm from originally was born in Denver. I grew up in Ohio, but I was born in Denver. And so I'm a lifelong Denver Broncos fan. And I think there's something about it's where the planes meet the mountains, and there's something about the quality of light there that I know Denver, and I've seen some of them, is really, really famous for some spectacular sunsets. And in fact, as a Denver Broncos fan, you may know our colors are blue and orange. Orange is one of our big colors. And I have a bumper sticker since I was a kid. And I think it says, if God is not a Broncos fan, why are sunsets orange? So I think in in Denver, they actually make it sort of it's part of. the football identity and the city identity, these beautiful bright orange sunsets. so I think Denver is another great place for sunsets. Okay. I wonder if does pollution help? You know, we talked about clouds. I wonder if like air quality like poor air quality tends to actually make for some pretty cool sunsets. Yeah. And I was thinking about this and I was listing what are the best features for sunsets. And I I kind of unfortunately I almost put that on the list because yeah, it is true. Pollute pollution can really juice up a sunset. It can bring out more colors. It can bring out more of the oranges and the blue and the and the and the bright reds. you know, here in Seattle, we're one of the parts of the country where we're getting more and more wildfire smoke, especially in the late summer. Like often in August, we have a couple of days where the the air quality is is not healthy. And boy, on those days, it's a different kind of sunset though, right? Like we we go out for a walk sometimes and the air quality's is not getting is getting into the danger zone. And the sun, it almost looks like you're at Star Wars on Tatooine, right? You have this bright red sun that just doesn't almost look natural. And so I'd say that it's a fine line. Yeah. Like like pollution in the air can can kind of it's almost like if somebody takes a photograph, but then they play with the colors a little too much and it starts to look unnatural. And I think a little bit of of particles in the air can I guess improve a sunset, but too much. it starts to get kind of creepy. I've got one in the US to add to your list that I love. it's where I live, Charleston, South Carolina. And I know it's on the East Coast, but hear me out. So we often, especially in the summer, get these afternoon thunderstorms, but they clear out by sunset. So there's a lot of clouds in the sky. And then also because of the way the coastline is, it's not really facing east. It's in some parts almost facing west. And so if you're on the beach or if you're close to the water, you're not. looking at the sun going down behind you necessarily. It's kind of at an angle, at that angle we were talking about, where you can get some really good pictures. So I think like even with all my world travels, I think like here is where I've enjoyed some really surprising great sunsets. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And I think you just just also described a perfect recipe for a sunset. It's it's not a perfectly clear day. It's a cloudy day. And the rain, you know, I I've been in places like that where you get the afternoon kind of thunderstorm that cleans out the humidity. That also is great for sunsets, right? Because you have the big clouds, but you're getting all that kind of haze out. So you get a nice strong crisp light. Crisp, yeah. Exactly. And it and then it hits those clouds on top of it. and so I I'd almost rather it rained just before sunset than not at all, because otherwise it could be kind of hazy and disappointing. And you know, I grew up in I grew up in central Ohio and I've witnessed spectacular sunsets in central Ohio. Again, it's not a place we're not on the water and you know, it's it's it's not a part of the country known for its dramatic landscape. but man, I was looking through my photo role and I I remember Christmas a few years ago, we ha we were in Ohio and just bright pink and purples in the sky. And, you know, again, it's it's it's about destinations. It's also just about being in the right place at the right time and just being lucky. Is it about and this kind of goes into the like the deeper personal meaning too? Is it about too like where you are in life and can like sunsets ever provide like peace and comfort and like quiet and focus. You I think the wonderful thing about a sunset is it kind of gives you whatever you need, right? If you're on a having a great time on vacation, it's just another pretty backdrop to the fun you're having. If you're going through a hard time, it's a moment of peaceful reflection and a reminder of kind of how big the world is and it kind of gives you perspective. And I think that might be part of that's now that you mention it, boy. I think you're exactly right. I think the the beautiful thing about sunsets is that it it just means whatever it needs to mean to that person at that moment. And the people, again, the people that you're with, the place you are in your life. You know, it's if you're having a wonderful trip and you experience one of your all time favorite sunsets, it's just like the icing on the cake of a wonderful trip, you know? What about sunrises? They don't get as much of the press, but they're pretty cool too. They're great. You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm a night owl. I was gonna say if you wake up in time. Well, listen, we may be setting the clocks all weird. You know, if daylight saving changes and we could be looking at sunrises at 9 a.m., you may be in luck. That's a good point, especially here in Seattle. I think there's a lot of us who'd love to have more daylight at the end of the day, but of course the trade-off is some very late sunrises. No, I have colleagues who are the opposite of me. I'm a night owl, so I'm if if if the I'm rarely, especially because I'm often traveling in the summertime and so the days are long. I'm not getting up at 4 a.m. for the sunrise, you know. But I have colleagues who are early risers and they they are absolutely love it. I have a couple of colleagues who are fellow guidebook researchers or tour guides and they're runners. They love to go for a run in the morning. And they've they've told me there's some of their f all-time favorite moments in Europe, for example, is when you get up and you're out there in kind of those magic hours as the sky is getting lighter. And also then you have the experience of the city is like waking up around you. You kind of feel like you're the first person, you're getting a sneak preview of what could end up being a very busy day, especially in a popular place where maybe a few hours later it could be a mob scene. Well, at this moment you have it to yourself. And then you also have the added beauty of of watching the sunrise and those soft, those same soft colors that I love at sunset. different quality, but you have a very similar kind of a very serene kind of a beauty early in the day as well. I bet it's good for your your like circadian rhythm too, to see the sun go up and the sun go down. It tells your body like it's time to go to bed or it's time to wake up. Especially when you're jet lagged, it's probably a bit of a jump start for your your internal clock. For sure. Cameron, is there any other spots you can think of? Costa Rica's another place because you've got this, especially if you're on the Pacific side, you've got this long, long west coast, endless beaches. We were in a place called Uvita, which is down kind of in the southern part of of the west coast of cro of Costa Rica, and just enjoyed You kind of already are on a beach that kind of you can go look in either direction and all you can see is sort of where the jungle meets the beach. And then when you're there when the sun sets, that's that's pretty spectacular. I also mentioned Puerto Vallarta in Mexico. I think there's a lot of places in Mexico on the west coast, especially that are like this. People love the cabos, you know, Los Cabos. but we spend a lot of time not in Puerto Vallarta, but we're in a little town just north of Puerto Vallarta, very often called Bucerrias. And Again, that's a place where we will plan our day around the sunset and try to get as high as pop as possible if there's like a rooftop bar or something, because you're sitting in the middle of this great big bay, and it's just a beautiful thing to watch the sun slowly setting there. And then my wife and I made it to Australia a few years ago, and this is a very different one. but we decided this is sort of a once-in-a-lifetime we wanted to go to Uluru, which is sometimes known as Ayers Rock, which is this big, beautiful red rock formation right in the middle of Australia, deep in the outback. And so we went and spent a couple of days there. And one of the the little tours that we did was we went and watched the sunset right next to Uluru, which is the if you've seen pictures, this is a rock that's just naturally this bright, bright, deep red color. And the sand is also all around it, is also this sort of bright red color. And so the colors, even at any time of the day, are really striking. But you can imagine at sunset when you have that rich kind of reddish glow that's also lighting up these surfaces. That was another place. Uluro in Australia was another place that that was that was an unforgettable one. And the best part about that was after the sunset, we had dinner and then it was perfect timing. They did a stargazing expedition because there's almost no light pollution there. So the so the stars are incredibly visible. And for us coming from North America, being in Australia, the constellations are in a completely different place than we're used to. And so that was that was sort of a twofer. we got to go out into the outback and do a sunset. At this beautiful and very spiritual rock. It's very important to the Aboriginal people. And then minutes later, we've got someone who's narrating the southern sky as as a kind of a constellation tour. So that was that was a great experience. Yeah, you know, that makes me think of like kind of the historical value of sunsets too, and just sun angles and how long people have been studying this and the culture behind it. I was in Scotland recently, and there were these. 4,000 year old rock circles that apparently line up with like the winter solstice sun. Like that's wild to me. Have you seen anything like that that is just like evidence of people thousands of years ago looking at sunsets? Absolutely. And I'm glad you reminded me of this. But sure, the sun I I was thinking about the British Isles. I've traveled there a lot. I love it. I've seen some nice sunsets there. I don't know that it's it's Greece or Croatia. But the one thing you do have there is what you just said, which is the British Isles are just covered with prehistoric stone circles. The most famous one is Stonehenge, of course, but there's that's just one of hundreds of these, or standing stones. You'll be driving in the middle of nowhere. And if you know where to look, you'll see suddenly in a field, here's, you know, a 300-yard long line of stones standing at regular intervals. and the more that they kind of learn about these, these were done by prehistoric peoples. We have no idea, there's no written record of why they were doing this. But the more we've learned about these, the more we understand it almost always has to do with the solstice, either the summer or the winter solstice and the direction of the setting sun. And I've been in some incredible tombs. I'm thinking there's there's if I'm trying to remember the details, but I think in Ireland, at Bruneboyne, there's some really impressive old dome tombs, new grange and and and some of these. And if you're in the right place at the right moment, I want to say if you're at the winter solstice at exactly the right time, it's the only time of the year that the sun comes shining through this corridor and it lights up this one point on the wall. And it's very clear this is not a coincidence. They designed this to capture the setting sun at this moment, once a year. and so that you're right. There's a there's some very deep spiritual underlying kind of DNA, I think. involved in in some of these sunset places. It's wild what what they knew, what ancient people knew about sun cycles and the seasons. it's crazy. Well Cameron, I don't have anything else. Is there anything else you can think of that you want to add about well I'm curious, Emily, you've traveled a lot. What are some of you mentioned a couple of your favorites? Let's compare notes. I'd like I'll I'll write these down. What are some of your favorite sunsets that you've been I mean I think I told you some of them like I said Charleston is my favorite spot or minor league baseball stadium overlooks the water, the marsh in Charleston. And so often the games are happening, they start at like seven o'clock. Often you go out there right about the start of the game and you turn around and you look in the marsh behind you, and usually spectacular sunset going on right there. So our minor league baseball stadium in Charleston is a great spot. I got a really good sunset picture. I'll send it to you of my daughter. It was unexpected. It was in Dornick. in Scotland last week and it was one of our last days and she was just playing on the beach and I think it was like the tide was going out. So there was a lot of like water sitting on the beach. It was very reflective and there were some clouds. It had just cleared out and it wasn't the sun the the sun was going down like behind her on the, you know, over the dunes. But it was just a really great picture, really beautiful. That was one of my favorite spots. And then yeah, Greece. I mean I think We, you know, not necessarily there in Santorini, but we stayed in Paros and there were some really good sunsets. And I think part of it too is like my husband and I were celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary. We're just like laid out, relaxed, and just, you know, it was part of it was the experience of what I was doing in my life at the time. So like we talked about, that plays a huge role. Yeah, I would say Greece, you kind of can't go wrong if you want sunsets. Go to the Greek Islands. I'm sure you'll you'll you'll certainly have at least one good one and maybe every night. And I put Croatia on the list too. Yeah, those are great. Well, those are wonderful. I love the idea of the baseball stadium. We in Seattle here, we're Seattle Mariners fans, and our stadium is is kind of on the water overlooking the port in downtown. And there's a little terrace, same thing. There's a terrace behind the level that we usually sit at. And if you go outside at sunset, you're you've got the stadium on one side, and then you've got the downtown skyline and the mountains and the and the harbor. And the sunsetting right there. Isn't it great when you have wonderful sunsets close to home? I think that's the way it should be. Everyone's favorite sunset should be the place they live. So we've talked about what the sunset means to us. The memories, the places, the people, the emotions we attach to those few minutes at the end of the day. But what actually is happening up there? Why do some sunsets explode with color while others barely register? And what makes that green flash possible? To answer those questions, I talked with Jan Knoll, a certified consulting meteorologist and an expert photographer of the Green Flash. He has spent years observing and photographing these fleeting moments, and he can explain the atmospheric science behind what we're seeing. Here's Jan. Can you give me an explanation as to why during the day we're looking up and we're seeing generally like a blue sky, but then come sunset, things start to light up with these like oranges and reds? Dur during the daytime, when the sun is high in the sky, it's it's coming coming through the atmosphere. And most most of the the light is is coming on down to the surface. And we're looking like right at the sun or close to the sun. It looks Very bright and yellow. But every place else the sky is blue. That's because the sk the size of the molecules in the atmosphere are scattering out that blue. And so that's what we see. And it's coming through a relatively thin area of the atmosphere during the daytime. Nighttime, when the sun is low on the horizon, it's coming through a a deeper gash in the atmosphere, if you will. And so everything is filtered out except the the reds, yellows and and oranges, the the the end of the worry biv a rainbow. Okay. And then sometimes there's this little flash of green that people see in pictures or sometimes I guess even in person. And I know you were the person to talk to you about this because you have been searching for this for a long time. You've you've finally found it, right? But you had to move. Yes, you know, as a d as a meteorologist and probably in my you know one of my first meteorology class classes where they talked about optics. You know, they talk about rainbows and sunsets and you know, sun dogs and everything else, and they talk about the green flash. Living on and near the California coast my entire life and having traveled you know, Hawaii and other places where it's supposedly fairly prominent, I've been looking for it for, you know, over 50 years. But it wasn't until I moved to the coast back about six years ago and started photographing sunsets on a regular basis and especially using a pretty big telephoto lens, but I could start seeing details in the sun. There's a lot going on out there. It's not just this this nice yellow, orange, red disc dropping dropping into the into the ocean. But there are all sorts of, you know, waves in the atmosphere of different temperature temperature gradients, if you will, in the atmosphere. And as light goes into an area with a different temperature, it gets refracted differently. And so refracted is it's bent. It's like going through a prism. It's the same thing that happens with a raindrop causing causing a rainbow. With the green flash, you get this this little bit of green or emerald yellow color. Typically at the top, it I has I have actually photographed it at the bottom of the sun before the sun gets real close to the ocean. But you have just the right refraction. And the the type of type of weather that where where it really happens. is when you have some you have stratified layers where you have a nice inversion down down near the down the near the ocean surface so warmer air on top of colder ocean air and then sometimes you and then have multiple layers of of air and that's when when things get really interesting with looking at the sun through through a a a telephoto lens so you get these little typically one or two seconds bursts of green light at the top of the sun. Now, one of the misconceptions about green flash, it only happens right after the sun has dipped below the the ocean's horizon. But you can also see it when the sun is still above and you get that light is rippling through these different layers of the atmosphere. And again we're looking looking sideways. So it's going through lots of different layers. And so you get these, you know, the the stratified layers in the colors of the sun, but then you also get these little green elements that will pop up off the top. And photographing or looking through a telephoto lens, you can, you know, you're able to see the see that little area kind of begin to separate. And sometimes that will happen multiple times during the course of the sun going from being a full disk and then dropping all the way, all the way into the ocean. Again, I had never seen it with naked eye and actually, you know, having looked at it look for it. But through a telephoto lens, no, you know, all the all the cautions, you know, need need to be in play. Don't look directly into the sun when it's, you know, right until it's almost right on the horizon. It's still awful bright. But even at that point, the the sun is relatively bright and your pupils get dilated and your color perception is really off. You can't see a lot of detail. And that that is another reason that it's often is often missed. Plus, it's very short lived, a second or two. It's typically one the amount of time. So, you know, I'll I'll have a a fairly fast shutter release and you know, go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and be able to pull out the one where it's just at at the per at the perfect point. So it's a it's a really fun challenge as a meteorologist to be able to photograph. And I I'm lucky being both a meteorologist and a photographer that I'm able to. combine those into into something that is you know I I think a fairly fairly interesting thing. Yeah, I bet. So does the sun have to be going down over the ocean for this to happen or can it happen over land too? Does it have to be over the ocean? That's the only place I have seen it, but I have seen seen it photographed over over land. The overland you don't have the you know the real stratified temperature inversions that you have out over the ocean. And plus it is at the ocean at its lowest point relative to the horizon. Overland you're gonna at least have a little bit of of elevated area. So it's not gonna be quite quite as dramatic. And you don't see the you aren't into the reds and oranges and some of the effects that that you have when it's right at the horizon. Okay. Well going back to like sunsets as a whole, a lot of times sunsets are more beautiful if there's like some clouds in the sky. Is there some science behind that? Yes, and I I don't know the precise size, but I know the types of clouds that again as a meteorologist and I I want to be looking for, I want to be looking at mid-level clouds. typically alto ultrostratus, alto cumulus. We had some subtropical moisture come up into the San Francisco Bay Area over the last few days, and the sunsets have been spectacular. And so yeah, you want the mid-level clouds? It seems that the when when this when the sun has set. below the horizon. And here here's a something I've learned after making many mistakes over the years. Wait at least 20 minutes before leaving wherever you're photographing the sunset, especially if you have mid-level clouds. Because the colors seem to get more, more brilliant. They go from sort of yellow, orange and get into into some reds and magentas and really, really awesome colors after the sun has gone down a little bit. It's a lot of people go, Sun's down, head into the car, you know, I remember times where I'm in the parking lot and I go, crap, I have to turn around, turn around and and and and get off the tripod again. So but it it seems that the the elevation angle of mid-level cloud, so we're talking 10 to 20,000 feet, it's gonna be in that range, is when you have the right refraction to be able to be able to get the colors. And are those types of clouds more common certain times of year in certain parts of the world during certain weather systems. Where's where's our like perfect spot here? So you know, w the the times, you know, as a as a meteorologist, when I'm looking for, you know, the the middle clouds, number one, when we start getting see some subtropical moisture. So and not associated with the front because typically you have a a very broad area of clouds associated with the front, but maybe well out ahead of a front or being moisture that's been spun up off of an old tropical storm. and then f farther north, you you can get so you know you get the some some out alto clouds in the in the cold air back behind the front. So there's lots of lots of lots of different places. any clouds you can start getting some color, but it's been my experience that you know it it's the it's that mid level is when you're gonna gonna have have the best and when they're not All the way down to the horizon. So you want some breaks. So you can get some sun, some of that sun getting up under those clouds and and lighting them. What about the famous crepuscular rays at sunset? How do those happen? If there's some clouds down on the horizon, they will block part of the sun, sunlight coming coming upward. And so you you sort of have this this pattern where it's where it's spreading up. And so in between the clouds and up up like this area, you have the The sunlight is interacting with dust or other particles in in the air. And that's typically the times when you'll see those crepuscular rays. Do you have a most memorable sunset that you can think of or place you go back to time and time again? gee. Well, I have a number of spots here along the California coast. I live in Hef Moon Bay and I'm about 20 minutes from a Pigeon Point Lighthouse. And it's sort of one of my favorite foreground. places to photograph sunsets. Also in the middle of the night, the the Milky Way, it's a nice dark area. And if it's a fog free night, when there's no moon, that's that's another another spot that I'll go to. If you want to check out Jan's photos of the Green Flash, I'll put a link to his website in the show notes. I'll also link Cameron's social media account so you can follow along on his adventures. Do you have a favorite spot for sunsets? I want to hear about it. Reach out on Facebook or Instagram. I'd love to share your photos on my social media channels. On Facebook, I'm Emily Gracie Meteorologist, or on Instagram, I'm Atmosphere Podcast. For those who like to go beyond the audio, I'm also publishing deeper dives, episode recaps, and extra content every week on Substack. If that sounds like your thing, I'd love for you to subscribe and join my community there. I'm now publishing the uncut video versions of the podcast there for paid subscribers. If you enjoyed this conversation, taking a second to follow Atmosphere on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts ensures that you won't miss the next one. Leaving a rating or review also makes a huge difference in helping new listeners find the show. And if you know someone who loves science, sharing an episode with them is the best support you can give. A big thanks to both Cameron Hewitt from Rick Steves Europe and to Jan Null for joining me today. Our meteorologist Emily Gracie thanks for taking the time to slow down, stay curious, and explore the atmosphere.