Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Life from the Middle | a conversation with Lisa-Jo Baker

Transcript

Life from the Middle | a conversation with Lisa-Jo Baker · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Hi friends, welcome back to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: It means so much to have you choose to take this conversation along with you today.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm Amy Wixerhost, and here at Simply Wholehearted, we provide perspective, purpose, and plans to help you love God, love others, and live your best life.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you may have heard of Lisa Joe Baker's name before.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: But in case you haven't, I'm honored to get to introduce her to you.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: She is a well-traveled South African, former attorney, she is also a longtime community manager at Encourage, she's an author and champion of women everywhere.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: And best of all, she believes the ordinary can be extraordinary.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Now, you know the Enneagram was going to have to be a topic I had to cover.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: So I jump right in to highlight one of my favorite chapters in her new book, The Middle Matters.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: There is so much gold in a conversation, so I'm not gonna even attempt to try to highlight it for you.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: But just trust me when I say you need to listen to the entire thing.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: I know you'll be so glad you did.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: I look tired and like I've had a long summer of kids and book launch, but I feel full of joy.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: And that's all that matters.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: And I would, I'm just gonna give you a heads up.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: My house is full of kids, like full of joy.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: I told mine don't come out of the room and give them their iPads.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: So let's hope that works.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have this really bad habit.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, when my husband leaves town, I take on extra kids.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: It's like this disease or this need to, I don't know why I do it, but I do.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I have six kids in my living room.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow, that's amazing.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: They are being entertained by the you know screen on the wall.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: So we'll see.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: We'll see how this works.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: But I'm easy.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: I I figured out of all the people that I could talk to and have six kids in the background, Lisa Joe was the woman because you know a little something about this.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you just a little bit motherhood, and and I have to point out right away because I got really giddy because I got an advanced copy from your publicist.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was so excited.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: And um, so I immediately I said, Oh yeah, I would love one, and it's going to the top of my pile.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm reading through it, and I had already heard that you were somewhat familiar with the Enneagram, but then I read the chapter where you talk about the Enneagram without talking about it.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: She is brilliant.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: I like her.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: She needs to be my new BFF because this is so good.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Could you guess which number I was based on that chapter?
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: There was a couple of things for sure, too.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, though I with your husband, I was thinking, what did I think?
2:45
SPEAKER_00: I knew he was in the inward stance, but I'm like, he's either a five or a nine.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: He's actually a four.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: A four.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: All right.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, which he just like holds it all in his head.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: He has all these deep thoughts and conversations, and then it's like he thinks I know, and like he'll like be upset as if I and I'll be like, You realize we didn't actually talk about this, right?
3:05
SPEAKER_01: Like you had a conversation in your head.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: You didn't let me into it.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: For me, I don't know what's happening right now.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, totally.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: No, I thought about that whole because the inward stance in particular has a bad habit of doing that.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: They resolve things in their mind.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm married to a nine, also in the same stance, and it's the same thing.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: He can like pull away, he can roll over and go to sleep right after having an argument without any sort of resolution.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was a man thing, and now I realize it's a type thing.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: What type are you?
3:38
SPEAKER_00: I am a three.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: So right?
3:40
SPEAKER_00: A neighbor.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: I've always gone back.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: Am I a two with a three-wing or three with a two-wing?
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And and I even I thought it was really interesting because in one of the topics you had talked about mirroring other people's emotions.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think that is along the lines of an Aneagram two, Aneagram Three, some of the struggle that's there of mirroring emotions and what that can hinder really in us.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: The problem is because that's how you see the world, you start to assume everybody sees it that way, right?
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Because that's your viewpoint.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: So then you become frustrated because you think to yourself, well, why doesn't my partner realize he needs to like let me off the hook at some point?
4:21
SPEAKER_01: Like I need to be done with this day, with these emotions, with serving all these people.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, how come he's so selfish that he won't give me permission to take a break?
4:30
SPEAKER_01: Permission, yes.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: The blessing.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: Why won't he give me permission?
4:33
SPEAKER_01: And I only realized through talking to a counselor and learning more about the Enneagram, oh, other people don't see the world this way.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And I was listening to an interview recently, I think it was on Annie Downs' podcast where she was talking to a two.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Isn't that Enya Summer that she's done is so great?
4:51
SPEAKER_01: So good.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: And she was talking to a two who said she never tells people how she's feeling because she just assumed they knew.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Because that's how twos see the world.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: Like we can for everybody else.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like why wouldn't you know that I'm upset?
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, how can you not feel it?
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can feel what you are feeling.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: How could you possibly not discern that I'm upset or I'm excited or whatever?
5:15
SPEAKER_01: And it was so eye-opening to me to learn, oh, how I see the world isn't natural to Peter.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't experience it this way.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: Because I would think, how is it possible at night now, after a long day, that he can just sit down and like decompress without feeling the anxiety of needing to check in with everybody else before he does that?
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Or do all the things.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Why isn't why isn't he letting me like also relax?
5:43
SPEAKER_01: And I used to say, like snidely to him, Oh, it must be so nice to just check out.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, can't tell.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: There's all this that has to happen.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: And so actually, as our relationship has progressed, I he has learned to say to me, Lisa Joe, you have permission to leave the dishes or you have permission to go to your room now, because he's learned I can't do that for myself.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: I really struggle to.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And so even though I don't need his permission, right?
6:07
SPEAKER_01: It's so helpful to have him verbalize what I then can say to myself.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Lisa Joe, you have permission.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: So in terms that's like the permission question for me, which goes hand in hand with the mirroring other people's feelings and emotions.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: I've learned to be able to say now about my children, because that's where I experience it a lot, or in my friendships, right?
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Like out loud to myself, Lisa Joe, like you are not required now to stop your entire afternoon and resolve that for them.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: Like that's not your job right now.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Like you can hear their frustration, but maybe your friend just needed to vent something.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: You don't now need to rearrange your afternoon to go fix that for her.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: So insightful.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: It took somebody else saying to me, what you're doing isn't actually required and it's not the norm.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: I just assumed with my perspective on the world that everybody saw the world this way.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And so it was very, very difficult.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's why that chapter, that essay is called A Time to Fight, because we would fight all the time.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And I would think, why is he so selfish?
7:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, can't he see what he's doing?
7:10
SPEAKER_01: And I know he was thinking, what is wrong with her?
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, why can't she just disconnect from these things?
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I it's so fun that you saw that about that chapter.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: I didn't name it, but I described those two.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: You did a beautiful job, really.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I read that and I was like, she's so brilliant.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Because you just articulated the pain points, the thoughts, and without without saying it, which is kind of I feel a passion about that, you know, not only to get the Anneagram out because I'm an Aneagram coach, but to use it in kind of how you illustrated, where it was this insightful tool, not this box of, okay, this is how I have to be, and it's a license to be this way or that way, but instead it's empowering you to have communication with your husband and enrich your marriage.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: And then for you, even so how do you take that knowledge of you're waiting for permission?
8:06
SPEAKER_00: And how do you just take it for yourself or do the things and build it in to your everyday where you get what you need so you're not resentful by the end of the day?
8:15
SPEAKER_00: Because I think most moms need to know.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it's like it's practice like anything else.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I practice it now.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: I've added that tool to my toolkit of being a mom now for how many years?
8:28
SPEAKER_01: 14, 15 years.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Like there are many things I've had to add to that toolkit when it comes to my own temper or managing my kids' bad choices.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: And now it's one of those things I can help myself not feel like I'm gonna be a banshee psycho by the end of the time.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Everybody has demanded something from me.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'm actually just, you know, my kids are older now too.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: So what I'm really good at doing when they come in and just you know how children will just like literally walk into whatever situation is happening with oblivious to the context and just start asking for something.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, like it is.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: And I'm so much better now at saying to them.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to verbalize it.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: It helps me learn and it helps them learn.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm able to say now, hang on a second, look, what what am I doing right now?
9:14
SPEAKER_01: And then they'll be like, You're taking a shower, or you're making yourself lunch, or you're you know, working on your computer.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: And then I can say, yes.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: So when I am finished this, I can help you with that, but you're gonna have to wait.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: I love that boundary.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: It it helps me because I can direct them and say, Look, what you're in, look, look and notice somebody is busy with something.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: But I say it for myself, even as a grown-up, to remind myself, look, Lisa Joe, you're in the middle of something.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: You're not required to drop everything, you know, like nobody's bleeding, nobody's having a heart attack.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Like they can wait 15 minutes.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I'm not doing anything.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'm reading a book and eating a snack, and somebody has something like this has to be washed for soccer.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: And I will just be like, that's nice for you.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: And you are gonna have to figure out how that gets done.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: I am resting right now.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Do you see me resting?
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And so that's been a big thing for me to be able to let go.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And what's hard though, as a parent and a two, is if I am resting, say in the bedroom, and I hear my kids whining for something, and then it's up to my husband right now, he's gonna try to resolve whatever's happening.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: But I can hear he's not resolving it in the way I think it should be resolved.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: That is difficult because I will pipe up from the bedroom.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: And Peter, bless him, has learned to say back to me, hey, do you want me to handle this or not?
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm handling it now.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: You have to let me parent this in the way I'm choosing to parent it.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: So I do now, but it's it is an ongoing discipline to manage.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: And so um, I you know, it's funny though, it's fun to talk Enneagram a little bit.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: I haven't had this conversation in the middle of this book launch, really focused on the Enneagram.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think part of what I struggle with in the description of it too is that we're servant-hearted because I don't feel that way.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't feel naturally that I want to serve, I feel much more like a slave to that thing.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Like an obligation, right?
11:09
SPEAKER_01: Like I can't relax or have peace until I have checked these things off the list that this person wants from me, which makes me annoyed and resentful toward that person.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: And I can tell when I'm moving into Unhealthy 2 territory, when even like Instagram, like people who've sent me messages of kindness, of compliment, of excitement.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: And I feel annoyed when I see all those numbers, 16 messages, 20, 30.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: And because now I'm like, oh, why can't you be alone?
11:38
SPEAKER_01: Like now I have to respond to you jerks.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm like, wait, no, what is happening?
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, dial it back.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: They are not trying to impose on your time.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to respond to them.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: But um, so I struggle.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't, so I really don't like I'm not the person at the church function who wants to be in the back in the kitchen serving.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Like I've never that's never been the nature for me.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's been much more like a genie attached to a lamp somehow, who when the person rubs has to come out and say, How can I help you, whether they want to or not?
12:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't like that characteristic of my two-ness.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's definitely not like a generous or Christ-centered kind of service at all.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Like this begrudging annoyance that I'm required to give because I'm somehow enslaved to it.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of it is born out of, you know, they talk about our types being born out of brokenness from childhood.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: I know there's disagreement on both sides of this, but I like I really grew up in a home where my father was a very unpredictable personality given to violence and rages.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: And so I really was groomed into my tuness to please him, to calm him, to say the right thing, to diffuse the situation, to serve and to keep the waters smooth.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think my resentment is attached to that.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't like feeling obliged now to meet other people's needs.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: And so as a grown-up, I'm learning I don't have to.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: Like it's okay to wait, you know.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, this is beautiful.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: I think you've given an incredible insight into a true enneagram, too, because one of my sisters is a two, and I know that unfortunately, because of our Christian culture and evangelicalism and what um especially women are to look like, you know, quote unquote.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Um a lot of women tend to test as a two and are like, yeah, I'm a two.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: And because I know the wrestle of my sister and what you just articulated very clearly, I'm pretty sure when you land on your number, whether it's a two or not, there's a little bit of like, I'm a whatever.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Because it you do, you realize, oh man, while there are great things, there's that hidden side, that shadow side, the kind of the chain sometimes that we feel to who we have been and how we've been operating.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: And that is a piece of it that I think for a two, the motivation is there to to be able to help and to be needed in return and to receive what it is that we're longing for.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: But it's this vicious cycle if you're approaching everything from that way, which people have to see every every type out there to should be like Christ and lay their life down and everything like that.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: But that's not exclusive to the Aneagram too, nor even their actual motivation.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: It just sometimes presents its way in what seems like what we're looking for at the church or what we're supposed to be as the you know classic American Christian woman.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think the part of my two-ness I really lean into and resonate is much more to do with connection of people and championing people and being able to really understand people's motivations and to help them like achieve their fullness in who they are, which really, if you look at my trajectory of my career, like as a human rights attorney and now who was an advocate for women and now a writer who continues to be an advocate for women, absolutely the natural fit for me.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I did, I remember thinking at first I like I embraced being a two and I was really excited.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And then I kind of dug more into it.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: And the more I heard people talk about, oh, it's so great to have two friends because they'll just do anything for you.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: I started to feel super resentful.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is that about?
15:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, I am not your GD.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Stop rubbing my lamp, you know, the opposite of the Christina Aguilera song.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: I was talking to a wise friend who's been a spiritual mentor to me for a long time, and she's like a spiritual director.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: And I was saying to her, Nicole, it's just so maddening to me.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm just supposed to embrace this woundedness of who I am in order to, you know, somehow redeem it.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Like it makes me mad.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want to own this part of my past.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say this is who I am.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Like I I hate that that I got broken in my childhood.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And somehow in my adulthood, now people are like, yay, I'm so glad you're like that.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: I hate that.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And she said such a wonderful thing to me.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: She said, Listen, the thing about God is when he looks at you, he doesn't see your 18-year-old self, you know, as a standalone and your 40-year-old self as a standalone and your 70-year-old.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: He sees all of it.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: He sees wholeness when he looks at you.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't see, oh, you're broken now and now you're fixed.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: He sees you intrinsically as a knit together whole of the trajectory of who you are in a timeline because he's outside of time.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Like he's able to see you as a soul.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not like you have to say to God, okay, I am who I am now because I got broken in this way, because he doesn't see us as broken in that way.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: He sees who we are becoming always.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: But but somehow he's able to see that at 18 when I felt my most broken, and at 40, and whoever I am.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: And I hope, you know, even Richard's sense of who I am at 70, somehow he's able to hold all of that at once when he sees that.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if it makes sense, but it helped me so much to feel like I'm not somehow having to claim this broken part of me, because that isn't how God sees me.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: He sees me as this whole creation shaped by his story and his grace.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: And somehow that broke the chains of my two-ness in a way that I was able to lean into the gifting that came out of that story because somehow, you know, God sets us free by how he sees us.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: And I don't even know if I'm able to communicate that clearly, but for some way it was able to really liberate me from what I felt like had become a lamp I was trapped in.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Now, if you haven't already gathered, the Enneagram is something I chat about often on this podcast, and of course, in my everyday.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: So I've created several ways to help you learn more about this invaluable resource.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: First, you can check out our Instagram feed for weekly Enneagram postings, and then you can get the Wholehearted Enneagram Quick Start, which is my step-by-step guide to help you gain clearer understanding on your dominant type.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: Now, if you're looking for an overview, my wholehearted Enneagram Summary gives you the highlights of all nine types on one page.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: It is super helpful as you talk to others about this awesome resource.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: And last but not least, I have a few more coaching spots so you can get on the wait list for a free 30-minute consult.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: All the info is in the show notes or at simply wholehearted.com.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: It's so true though.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: I think it's really easy to see because again, it goes to the lens, the illustration, how the enneagram is a description of the lenses that we're looking through in life.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: And so just as you projected that everyone else saw a certain way or felt a certain thing, I think we do that with God, that he must see us from our perspective when it's so much bigger than that.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: And when he sees, he actually sees the fact that we hold all nine characteristics of him, every beautiful shade of it, and we get to illuminate one, and he wants to um help us live in the fullness of that as a reflection unto him, not as a a trap to be, you know, the broken part here on earth, but in the wholeness and the beauty and the radiance that we were intended to be all along.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And not not just stuck.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: And I I actually had a conversation with Chris here Ritz.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: He was, I actually did a summer in the Anneagram as well.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Um and it was one of those things that was one of my favorite podcasters, Annie F.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Downs, did the same idea.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, great minds think alike.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: And um he so he wrote Sacred Anneagram.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: And as a eight, he is very passionate about the mission that he, you know, feels called to.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: But that's one of his big things too, is that we just talked about this whole idea of not wanting people to surrender to this idea of you know the characters or the memes of the type, but the fullness of what they can be in the the wholeness um that we're really looking for, which is the whole idea.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: One of the one of the things I love to talk about is the superpowers of each type, and I like to highlight those, right?
20:12
unknown: Right.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: It's so funny, you just said that because I literally was gonna say those words like in our house with my kids, we talk about what your superpower is.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: That's and so feeling deeply or feeling somebody else's emotions is a superpower, yeah.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: It is, it absolutely.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna say, so for you, how does that translate when you're looking at wholeness and operating in motherhood as a wife in your community, in your home?
20:36
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like to operate in the superpower that brings life to you?
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And you do it from a place of wholeness instead of a dry well.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: I think um, you know, I feel like this book I wrote is almost a collection of stories based out of that because one of my superpowers is truly being able to feel the feelings of a moment, right?
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Like what's happening right now.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: And then as a writer, I think one of my gifts is being able to let people step into those feelings and so I wrote this collection of essays because I wanted to, like a photographer, I wanted to capture these moments that happen in the middle of our completely ordinary days.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: But if you tune into the feeling of that moment, you're overwhelmed by how powerful it is.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of women like me are on a roller coaster, a hamster wheel of sameness.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm trying to figure out new ways to make chicken.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: I have to pick up three kids from three different places, I have to feed these teenage boys, like, you know, I have to do the laundry at the same time as doing work that matters to me, like commuting.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, but every now and again you trip over buried treasure right there in plain sight.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: And so whether it's my son, you know, running his first race in a track meet or my daughter asking questions about God and is are her doubts real?
21:55
SPEAKER_01: What does she do with them, or you know, about fights into my own marriage and how we resolve them?
22:00
SPEAKER_01: When I'm in that moment, sometimes I'm able to say, Oh, it's happening.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: Like here it is.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: So powerful.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: It's so beautiful.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: How do I write it in a way that other women can tap into it and then emerge from my story and look around their own life and say, Oh, I have moments like that too.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: So my superpower is to feel the feelings of powerful moments that are completely ordinary.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people are missing as they go past them because I'm channeling like what my kid is feeling or his exuberance or his devastation, and how I'm able to step in and connect with him in that moment, how the Holy Spirit meets us, and then by writing it down, offer other women a way to look around at their own lives and then feel those things too.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Is and it's funny, I've never quite described the book that way, but I do think it's how I'm using my Enneagram number two super to give women a new way to feel their own lives.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you have done it, and you've ar articulated exactly.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna highlight the idea that this is really a collection of essays, and you said that a couple times now, where a lot like Surprise by Motherhood, I think about that, and I know what when did that book come out?
23:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I remember it being early on in my motherhood when I got it.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was thinking about that.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: I I feel like it was like maybe 2015, like maybe four or five years ago now.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: It seems longer ago.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: It was so impressionable.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: It was.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to, I don't have it's funny that I don't know that offhand.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to measure it.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: My daughter, Zoe, was she was born in 2011, and I feel like the book came out like a year or so after she was born.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: That sounds a little bit a little more closer to when I was thinking.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh just it was so impactful, but it that is exactly what it did, and I likened it just in that where it let me feel the feelings that I had.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Because as a three, I'm actually a feeling repressed, even though I'm in the heart triad, I struggle articulating what it is that I feel, or I have this underlying angst, pain, shame, whatever, but I I have a hard time putting words to it.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And in the journey of motherhood, uh when I read your book, I felt like you articulated so much of what I was wrestling through, even though my story looked different.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: You were putting words and language to what my experience was.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: And just as this, I'm turning 40 this year.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: We have kids similar ages going through a lot of the same, you know, life and joys.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: And I'm reading these words and I'm going, yes, she gets it.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's it, that's it exactly.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so rewarding to hear.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: I know, and it's funny because as a two, you assume, I did for a long time in my writing, especially with Surprise by Motherhood, that that it was what I was saying was obvious.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: But but often women will say this thing to me, oh, you put into words what I've never known how to put into words.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: And then I would always think, What do you mean?
24:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't like you don't even understand what that means.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Like it took me a while to realize it's not innate to everybody to verbalize the experience they're having.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think of this book I wrote, and yes, a collection of essays.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: And I talk about, you know, there are all these different middles, like the middle of failure, the middle of marriage, the middle of doubt, and then the middle of my muffin top, like writing about I my hope was to write about things we all think, but we don't all put into words.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: And so to give women, you know, vocabulary for their lives, but also a new pair of lenses to look at their lives and say, Oh, I spot what Lisa Joe was talking about is my hope to gift to women, because we live in a culture that seems to tell us we're supposed to live viral lives.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Like if not viral, somehow they're not meaningful.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: Right, or it didn't happen.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: It's ridiculous.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: Like 99% of life is just completely ordinary.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: And if that is where the kingdom of God lives, as Jesus said, the kingdom of heaven is now on earth.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: Like if that's true, there has to be something here that's weighty, that's worth actually paying attention to instead of trying to get to the next thing.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: And so this book, I describe it as a love letter to ordinary life because it's just a way of telling women, look, your literal ordinary Thursday has got magic buried in it.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Let me help you see it.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you have, you really have.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: It's it's just incredible.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think along those lines, we're kind of at the change of seasons, we're heading into the school year, which I can't believe the summer for me has zoomed by.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure with the book launch, it has zoomed by for you as well.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: We've got we've got a while still.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of people go back in August.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: We don't go back till after Labor Day.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: That's the way it should be.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm torn out how I feel about that.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: This is true.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: This is true.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: I know.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: I do feel there is there is some permission, or summer has looked very different than I thought.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: It started with an injury for me, and one thing has just led to another.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: So I kind of dubbing it as a summer of weakness, and that's not a woe is me, because I I know how the Lord is, well, I'm leaning on him more than I would have.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: But summer for moms in general is kind of a time, yes, where you have to figure out what you're gonna do with him, but there's also a pace that is joyful and feels for some personalities a lot easier than the school year.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: And I I thought it'd be really neat, just as you are, you know, kind of the classic mom, right?
27:17
SPEAKER_00: The soccer mom.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: You really just this is everyday, ordinary life is yours, and you've embraced it.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: So for for you, as you're giving wisdom to moms who are looking at starting a new school year and jumping right in and transitioning, what wisdom would you have to offer as we look for the extraordinary, but also uh just start doing it with intentionality?
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I think that I think you just give your permission, give yourself permission not to put too much pressure on yourself about like, even though I talk about this glorious ordinary, but not to have too much pressure to have to seize the day every day.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: It's just too much, it's too much to expect of ourselves.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that way about my summer because a lot of people are taking beautifully meaningful vacations and trips.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: And this has been the summer of home for us.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Like everybody's home.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: We are we haven't gone anywhere.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: We don't have a big plan this summer.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Mom's launching a book, like that's the plan.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've done little trips to the museums, and by we, I mean my husband has taken them.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, they've had soccer every now and again, they've gone to friends' pools, but mostly we've been home, and it doesn't live up to this idea of seizing the day.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: And I've had moments where I felt a little paralyzed this summer, like, oh my gosh, did I waste it?
28:29
SPEAKER_01: Have I not done enough meaningful things?
28:31
SPEAKER_01: And I realized, you know, no, like the message of of really embracing your life is not is to just live in the joy of it without this sense of constantly putting a pressure on yourself to make every moment meaningful.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: Because I think if we just accept that the story we're living is really imbued with like this weight of heaven, this glory of who God sees us as, that the kingdom is now lived out with us, just in our routine where some days we're watching Netflix too much, some days we're at the pool.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: There's something about knowing that Christ inhabits those moments with us that's enough.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't have to manufacture meaning.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is meaning because we walk alongside him.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: And so it's been a summer, really, too, that's been special because of that.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: There's something about just being home with each other and in each other's spaces and annoyed with each other because we're in each other's spaces so much.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: But that cements a family together, you know, that makes you remember, oh, we're each other's first people again.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And so I guess I just keep taking that reminder with me that I don't have to seize the day, it's enough to see the day.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: It's enough to see the day, and not every day, every day even, but uh, but most days there's something I can see and think this was a good day today because of that thing.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: And so I just I feel like I'm all about taking the pressure off moms, not to feel this pressure to head into the school year and have to make magical, meaningful memories.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: It's enough to live together, it's enough to do life, it's enough to sign the homework folders and show up occasionally for the school activities.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: I I think we underestimate the power of presence, of being together.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: That we don't have to create more than that, we don't actually have to add a huge plus to that.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: That that is in fact enough.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's it's important to see that it's the simplicity of stripping the other things away, the distraction and being present.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Because I think that is sometimes well, for me, again, going back to the Aneagram, are the time orientation each type has.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: So for a two being present focus is a gift, like that is something that they can offer and remind the rest of the world, along with the the one, the and the six.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and for me as a three, uh I'm always forward thinking.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm always thinking about it.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: How can I maximize what comes next?
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking forward to it with anticipation, like a seven might.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm also a little bit, you know, being self-critiquing of looking in the back, you know, the the rear view mirror of like, oh, I didn't do all these things that I meant to do by then.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, therein lies, you know, the gift of what you're talking about is of going like I don't have to perform in this moment that I have with the kid.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't have to make it extraordinary.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I just have to be engaged and available and present and doing life together.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I would say because the extra already lives in the ordinary.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't have to manufacture that, I just have to see it, is what I'm saying.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: And so I think there are a lot of moms who are working moms all summer, you know, like they're not there creating meaningful moments every day at the pool.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, and so they're taking a big vacation because that's the time their families are together.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome, you know?
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And then there are moms who've are stay-at-home moms, and now their summer feels the same and it's you know hard.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: I I just think what I'm saying is we we don't actually have to manufacture, like the extra lives there, it's already in your house.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: You just have to see it or it's on your vacation already.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, you don't have to feel like, oh, this vacation didn't live up to my expectations to be so extraordinary.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: No, like the extra is there already.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what this book is.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a help manual for moms to look at it and be like, oh, these completely boring things Lisa Joe wrote about are when I read them, I want to cry.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
32:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: And so my point is because the extra is already there, you just have to see it, and I want to help you do that so you don't feel pressured to manufacture it.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you read it and you go, Oh, yeah, I'm doing those things.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: That is my life.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to go buy something, right?
32:35
SPEAKER_00: Go book a trip or you know, create my house to look a certain way in order for this to just be a reflection of experiencing.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: It's so good.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, what is one more thing that you would love to share about your book or your experience or what you hope in this whole process of sharing your life and your heart and your feelings in through these words?
32:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I think my first book, Surprised by Motherhood, was the book I wrote because what I wanted to do really is go up to new moms, total strangers in malls with babies, and like buy them flowers and just be like, You're my hero! That would be creepy.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: I wrote a book about it.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: So this one, The Middle Matters, is really the equivalent of me wanting to go up to women and be like, oh my gosh, we're in the middle of our story.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Like we're living the glory days right now.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Like these are the stories.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: It's what we had looked for, right?
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Like we have been so excited about it, yeah.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: For so long, and now we're tired, and I get that you're tired, and it's so annoying to make dinner every night, but oh my gosh, like we're living the stories that will line our empty nests one day.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Don't miss it.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to tell women, don't miss it.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: I want to tell myself that because I struggle as much as the next woman to like, it's not like I'm saying revel in every second until your fingers are pruney.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying every now and again, look up from the grind and look around you because you are living the glory days right now.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: And so I want to help them just catch a glimpse of that, even if just out of the corner of one eye.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, you have successfully done that through your words, through this book.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: I I, you know, every once in a while I get a book across this table that I'm like, everyone needs to read it.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: And I just can't wait and excited and it touches me in a special way, and I'm passing it all around to my mom friends for sure.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: So that means a lot.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: That's always the highest praise for a writer that someone would pass your book on.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes, buy copies for everyone when you know, gifts for birthdays or whatever.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: Any any good excuse will do.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, Lisa Joe, thank you so much.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate your time, and all of these, all of this is sincere and true, and I feel honored to have gotten to help share this message just a little bit in some way.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, listen, I'm so grateful.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: This was such a fun conversation.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: It's always fun to do an interview and have a whole new angle on the book.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: So this is good.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's been super fun.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and a good friend.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, I promised you a great conversation, and as I listened again, I think I delivered.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: Lisa Joe is so kind, and I'm honored to have had this opportunity to chat with her and share this meaningful message.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: I'd love it if you'd run over to her website and order her book, The Middle Matters.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And of course, if you aren't already following her on the socials, you'll have to do that too.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, when you click any one of my affiliate links in my show notes, your purchase will support this podcast at no extra cost to you.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: And that, my friends, is a win-win.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for being a part of this community.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: What a gift it is to record and share these conversations.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Let's continue to invite others to join us as we pursue perspective, purpose, and plans for a simply wholehearted life.