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195. Freedom from Emotional and Spiritual Manipulation · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:12
The courtroom was packed. Every bench in the gallery was
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full. Neighbors, coworkers, family
0:20
members. All waiting to see justice.
0:22
Unfold a quiet. Tension hung in the air, thick
0:26
as humidity before a storm. At the front, under the great
0:30
seal of the state, a judge sat like a stone Sentinel.
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He had seen hundreds of cases, but he even looked uneasy about
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this one. The defendant, a woman in her
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mid 30s named Rebecca Hale, sat at a table beside her attorney.
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She was neat, calm, almost fragile looking, her hair tucked
0:51
perfectly behind one ear, her face pale but composed, her
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hands folded tightly under the table, knuckles white.
1:00
On the other side of the courtroom set the plaintiff,
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Michael Adams, our former business partner, shoulder
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stiff, jaw clenched, eyes tired. Between them, years of
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partnership, trust, friendship and betrayal.
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The case was simple on paper, complicated in reality.
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Rebecca was accused of defrauding the company that they
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had built together, moving money, falsifying reports and
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convincing others to cover for her.
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But beneath the legal language was a darker thread.
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She hadn't stolen with force or threat.
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She had stolen with charm, persuasion and emotional
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pressure. With one simple force behind it
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all, Manipulation. Michael and Rebecca had started
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their company 10 years earlier, Adams and Hale Consulting.
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They were good at what they did marketing, business strategy,
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client relations. Michael handled the operations
2:01
and the finance. And Rebecca?
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She was the visionary, the rainmaker.
2:06
You could say she was the face of the company.
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She could walk into a boardroom and walk out with a contract
2:12
twice the size of anyone else's. She could make you feel like you
2:17
were the most valuable person in the room, Michael would later
2:20
say. Like you were seen, valued and
2:25
respected. That was her gift and her
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weapon. It began innocently enough, A
2:31
missing receipt here, a payment that didn't quite add up, a few
2:35
1000 unaccounted for. When Michael brought it up, she
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smiled and said, Oh, Mike, you're such a good numbers guy.
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You're, you're so good at this stuff.
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Honestly, I could never keep track of it like you do.
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I must have just filed it wrong. He believed her.
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Why wouldn't he? They were friends, partners.
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She made him feel like the protector, the steady one, the
2:55
reliable rock that she needed. But over time, the gaps grew,
3:01
and so did her explanations. When a client questioned the
3:04
late invoice, she'd say, you know how demanding Michael can
3:08
be. He insists everything that go
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through three layers of approval.
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I'll smooth it out for you. When employee questioned a bonus
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discrepancy, she laughed and said, Michael's just under
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pressure right now, I'll handle him.
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And piece by piece, she shaped the perception of those around
3:25
her. Michael the control freak, the
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warrior and the killjoy. She was the patient,
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understanding one who held it all together.
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She wasn't stealing yet, but she was sculpting the outline of
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what was going to happen. She was beginning to soften
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everyone's defenses with sympathy.
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And that's how manipulation works.
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It rarely storms in and and seeps in.
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It doesn't demand. It sort of suggests it doesn't
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accuse. It just wonders.
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One Friday afternoon, Michael stumbled across a series of
3:59
payments to a small, unknown vendor.
4:02
RH Marketing Solutions took him a few clicks to realize that RH
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stood for Rebecca Hale, and she'd been quietly funneling
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money through a shell company that she owned, paying herself
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consulting fees on top of her salary and bonuses.
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When he confronted her, she didn't flinch.
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She looked hurt. Michael, she said softly.
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I can't believe you'd think that of me.
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After everything we've built. You know how hard I've worked,
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how many nights I've stayed up making sure your clients were
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happy while you were home with your family?
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He felt the sting immediately, the guilt, the shame, the
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suggestion that he was the ungrateful one, the cold one.
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She didn't deny it. She made him feel cruel and even
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asking. That's sort of the genius of
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manipulation it it shifts all the spotlight instead of asking
5:02
whether something was wrong and makes you ask whether you were
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wrong to even ask to begin with. Michael backed down for a while,
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but the truth didn't stay buried forever.
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The client eventually called him directly asking about a
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suspicious retainer. When he investigated, he found a
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pattern. 10s of thousands of dollars misallocated over
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several years. That was when he realized what
5:25
he was up against. It was not just a seat, it was
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control through emotional leverage.
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He went to the board, he went to the authorities, and now he sits
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in a courtroom finally telling his side of the story.
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The prosecutors case was airtight, had bank statements,
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emails, memos, every piece of evidence pointing in One
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Direction. Yet as the trial unfolded,
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something unexpected begin to happen.
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Rebecca didn't argue facts, She began to argue feelings.
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When she took the stand, she didn't speak like a thief.
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She spoke like a martyr. Her voice trembled as she began
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to describe her struggles, long hours, the pressures of keeping
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the company alive, the emotional toil of working with someone so
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demanding and perfinistic as Michael.
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She even said, I guess I made mistakes, but it was only
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because I was trying to keep him from losing everything.
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Gaffes filled the courtroom. The audience leaned forward.
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You could feel the doubt creeping in.
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Maybe she wasn't a villain. Maybe she was just been
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misunderstood and that's the power of manipulation.
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I can twist the knife and make you think, think the hand that's
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turning it. During cross examination, the
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prosecutors pressed her. Miss Heil, did you create RH
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marketing solution? Yes.
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Did you authorize payments to the company from Adams and Hale
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Consulting? Yes.
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Did you disclose that you were the owner of that company to
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your partner? She hesitated, then smiled
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faintly. I didn't think that mattered.
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I wasn't hiding it. I just assumed he knew we were
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so close. Even in confession, she framed
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deceit as innocence. Every statement carried A subtle
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emotional undertone. I'm not bad, I'm misunderstood.
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You're not wrong. You're heartless.
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And when the verdict finally came?
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Guilty on multiple charges of fraud and misrepresentation.
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Rebecca. Cried not out.
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Of remorse, but outrage. You all believed him over me,
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she whispered, shaking her hand. And everything.
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After everything I've done for everyone in this room.
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Even the judge sighed before sentencing Miss Hale, he said
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you didn't just manipulate finances, you manipulated
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people. You use the trust as a weapon,
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and that in some ways is the deepest kind of theft.
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After the trial, Michael didn't celebrate.
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He sat in the courtroom long after everyone had left.
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Victory didn't feel like freedom, felt like grief.
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He had one, yes, but the cost was high.
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Friendships lost, a business shattered, Reputations bruised.
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He'd spent years doubting his instincts, questioning his
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sanity, and apologizing for things he had never done wrong.
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You see, dear friend, that is the aftermath of manipulation.
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It doesn't just break systems, it breaks spirits.
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In the months following that, Michael rebuilt what he could.
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But something that changed. He noticed manipulation
9:05
everywhere now, Not always in the courtroom, but in
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conversations, in relationships and church committees and family
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dinners that he was attending. The subtle art of emotional
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control, the unspoken pressure to conform, to please, or to
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yield to whatever someone else is thinking.
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He began to see the manipulation isn't always criminal.
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Sometimes it's cultural. Sometimes it wears a smile and
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says I'm just trying to help. Sometimes it begins to even
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quote scripture, as we'll look at today, and begins to hide
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behind even tears. But whether in a courtroom or a
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kitchen, the pattern is the same.
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Twist emotion to cloud truth. Use guilt to gain control,
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appears a victim. And eventually you can avoid
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responsibility for a time. Months later, a journalist
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interviewed Michael about the case and asked What was the
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biggest lesson you learned? She asked.
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He paused, and with a statement, he said truth doesn't always
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shout. Sometimes it whispers, and you
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have to stop listening to guilt long enough to hear it.
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She tilted her head, sort of in confusion, and asked another
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question. Did do you think Rebecca will
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ever understand what she did? He smiled sadly.
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Manipulators rarely do. They believe their story is so
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deeply that it feels like truth to them.
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They're that that. That's why they're so
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convincing. They've manipulated themselves
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first before anything else. You see, what make Rebecca's
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manipulation so powerful wasn't her intelligence or charm.
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It it was the way that she weaponized people's hearts.
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She turned compassion in the compliance, trust into control,
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and kindness in the currency. And if you and I were honest
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with each other, we've all may have been on one side of that
11:15
equation, or maybe even both sides of that equation.
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The story of Rebecca and Michael isn't just a courtroom drama.
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At times, it's a mirror. Because manipulation isn't
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limited to crooks and con artists.
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It's it's it's the quiet parent who controls through guilt.
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It's the friend who plays the victim to avoid confrontation.
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It's even the pastor who uses fear instead of faith to keep
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people in line. Spouse who holds.
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Affection until they get their way.
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And in the end, the trial of manipulation isn't fault in a
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courtroom. It's fault in the heart.
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Every day we stand in the courtroom where we choose
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between influence and integrity, between emotion and truth,
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between control and trust. The judge in that moment isn't
12:09
wearing a robe, but it's our conscience illuminated by God's
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word. And that's where the.
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Gospel cuts through the fog. You see, Jesus never manipulated
12:19
anyone. He didn't cohorse.
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He didn't want to try to convince someone to believe.
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He didn't twist emotions. He never guilted people into
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obedience. Jesus came and he spoke truth
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and he invited surrender. He invited people to a better
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way. He appealed not out of fear, but
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not not to fear or to shame, but to the conscience and to the
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heart. So maybe the question isn't
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who's manipulating me, but where am I tempted to manipulate
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others? You see, because freedom doesn't
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come from controlling people, it comes from trusting God enough
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in your life to let go and see what God's plan is for you.
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Man, that was a great cold open. I think you should do that
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professionally, James. I'm here to do a you do an
13:24
excellent job at it. But for welcome back to the Four
13:28
Freedom podcast. It's that time of year.
13:31
It's fall. I hope you got your pop pumpkin
13:34
spice lattes and got your pumpkin spice potpourri going on
13:39
in your house because it is that time.
13:42
It's a Thanksgiving time and we've got the big Turkey holiday
13:45
coming up and man, I'm looking forward to having my Turkey and
13:49
my deviled eggs and my Mac and cheese.
13:51
It's one day a year I can load up on the carbs and very
13:55
thankful for carbohydrates and protein on Thanksgiving Day.
14:01
But man, I'm just excited to be in the ministry.
14:03
I'm excited to be on the floor. Freedom podcast with Doctor
14:07
Reverend James Seyfried. Brother, tell us, how are things
14:11
going in North Carolina? Man, we're cold.
14:13
We, we had a little cold snap these last couple of days,
14:18
Monday and Tuesday or Sunday and Monday.
14:20
One of those days it got to like 3029°.
14:24
I was loving it. It was great.
14:27
We had a wonderful time at our convention.
14:29
We had 1600 people there. It was the largest convention
14:34
that North Carolina has had in 20 plus years.
14:38
And so that was encouraging to have a lot of people around.
14:40
So we just got back from that, had some late nights hanging out
14:43
with guys, getting to connect a little bit.
14:45
My voice is a little strangely right now from that and with the
14:49
weather changing. But yeah, it is, it is great.
14:52
Brett. The other day I went by Sam's
14:54
Club and they had a ginormous, I mean bigger than my desk.
14:59
It looked like pumpkin pie. So we bought it for our meeting
15:03
that we had at the church. It was like 5 bucks for this
15:06
massive pumpkin pie. I don't know how many
15:08
compliments I got from how great that pumpkin pie was.
15:12
Like my kids were taking platefuls of pumpkin pie home
15:16
because of how great it was and it was like 5 bucks.
15:18
It was so cheap. So I am very much excited about
15:22
Thanksgiving in just a couple of weeks, the day where we can
15:28
indulge ourselves in gluttony and thank the Lord for the food
15:33
that he's given us and sin all at the same time by eating too
15:36
much food. It is a wonderful holiday.
15:39
Deviled eggs, all the stuff in the Turkey, the deep fried
15:43
Turkey, the hams, the hanging outside with the guys and
15:47
smoking cigars while the girls are inside cooking.
15:50
It's a it's a wonderful, wonderful experience.
15:52
I'll tell you, it's something that my wife makes that I
15:55
absolutely just love. She makes pumpkin chocolate chip
16:00
muffins and they're moist and good.
16:04
And you know, we were going to, we, we bought some to bring to a
16:09
church function. Then we ran out of time to make
16:11
them. So I'm going to make a
16:13
suggestion that we make those for our small group next week.
16:19
But man, you get one of those you, you, you ZAP it warm.
16:22
You put some butter on the inside, man, make you want to
16:26
slap your mammy. And so I'll tell you what, last
16:29
night we got a little treat. I know you were tuckered out,
16:33
but we got a little treat with the Northern Lights.
16:36
Now listen, I've seen since I lived here in Carthage, I've
16:41
seen the Northern Lights a couple of times through my
16:44
phone. But last night was the first
16:46
time I ever seen it with my naked eye.
16:49
I mean, it was very, you could see, you know, the sky was
16:54
purple, the horizon was green. You could see it without.
16:58
Now, the phone made it where you could see it a lot better, but
17:02
it was the first time I could ever see it with the naked eye.
17:05
It was awesome. But you're not going to miss out
17:08
because tonight, I know this won't do any good for our
17:11
listeners, but for tonight when we're reporting this, it's going
17:17
to be even bigger tonight. So you're going to have an
17:20
opportunity to see the Northern Lights tonight.
17:23
Yeah, Brett, the other day speak.
17:25
I I when I get talking about food, it's hard for me to stop
17:28
talking about food. And you said something that your
17:30
wife had made those pumpkin chocolate chip muffins, which
17:34
sound delightful. I mean, I just, I'm excited
17:37
right now thinking about that. But I saw something the other
17:39
day. I'm going to make it this year.
17:42
Let me know your thoughts on this, Brett.
17:44
It is a pecan pie cobbler. Yeah, Yeah.
17:52
Interesting. Pecan pie filling the way you
17:55
would make pecan pie, but instead of putting it into a
17:57
filling dish, you do like a almost like a lasagna.
18:01
Layers like filling pie crust filling, pie crust filling pie
18:05
like you layer it like a lasagna and then you bake that thing and
18:09
it puffs all up. You get the pie, but you get the
18:13
pumpkin pie of the pecan pie. I I'm a pecan pie like
18:17
enthusiast. So that, so I love pecan pie.
18:21
I saved it immediately. I said to my wife immediately
18:25
because I couldn't not have that.
18:27
And I told her, I said I'm making this at Thanksgiving
18:30
because I'm going to indulge myself and if it's not good, I
18:34
don't know what I'm going to do because it looked fantastic.
18:37
Listen, that sounds fantastic. Listen, pecan pie is the
18:41
especially the filling. It's next level.
18:43
Yes, it is like if I'm on a diet and I can only have one thing of
18:47
multiple desserts, I'm getting a piece of pecan pie.
18:50
You know, they got that as you were talking about that, that
18:53
cobbler, you know, they got that Starbucks little bear, that
18:57
little class Starbucks cup that sold out recently.
19:00
I had a picture of that cup in it and people like it because
19:03
it's clear. You can see through it.
19:05
That cup filled with pecan, pecan pie filling, and you're
19:10
just sitting there slurping on it.
19:11
That would be so great. Yeah, I'm, I'm right there with
19:15
you. I love pecan pie.
19:16
I love it. Well, we are in our holiday
19:20
season, Brett and just a couple of things that are coming up.
19:24
We'll start out if you haven't went out and checked out our
19:27
cigar company, my I've made some great connections over the last
19:30
couple of weeks of just talking to people through that and go by
19:34
and check out. We're running specials this this
19:37
past week, you may have not seen it, but we ran a 25% off special
19:41
for one day on November 11th. And there'll be some other
19:44
specials that'll be dropping through the 1689 website and all
19:48
that applies to our products as well.
19:51
And so you could have got some great deals there.
19:54
Go by and check out our sampler pack, our individual pack or our
19:57
experience box. We've got just a couple of those
19:59
left. Those are great ways to support
20:02
the podcast and also support other ministries.
20:04
That we're helping out, that we're a part of, and so
20:07
hopefully you'll jump on board with that.
20:10
Brett, January's right around the corner.
20:12
What's coming up, man? Man, we are going back to the
20:14
Holy Land, Israel. We've been talking about this
20:17
for so long. I'm excited that it's finally
20:20
here. It it's almost here that the
20:22
window to go is shortening. And listen, our listeners, they
20:27
know about it. They want to go.
20:29
They know they can sign up for it.
20:31
Man, I just can't wait to go back.
20:33
I can't wait to see some of these places that we've seen
20:36
before. You know, the fighting's over
20:38
and now it's time to get back to business as usual.
20:42
And I'm excited for some of the places we're going that we
20:44
didn't go last time. Church of the Flagellation, I
20:49
think we're going to where David killed Goliath, couple other
20:53
places, things like that. And so I'm excited to get to go
20:58
back to Israel, go with the Holy do the Holy Land, and we're
21:03
going to get to go back with our buddy Marcus Merritt.
21:06
That's when we first met Marcus over in Israel.
21:08
I mean, he has been a friend to us.
21:11
He's been a friend of the four Freedom podcast.
21:13
We've had him on several times. And he is he is he is that they
21:17
call him the doc over there at Luther Rice the great doctrine.
21:22
And so I'm excited to go back to the Holy Land with him.
21:26
You try to explain when you go. And I know this episode intro
21:30
we're talking all about food, but I have just tried to explain
21:34
the buffets at this these hotels, how long they are and
21:38
how a plethora is. And you wouldn't think that a
21:42
breakfast buffet that doesn't have any pork on it would be
21:44
very long, but you would be wrong.
21:47
The stuff that they put on these buffets and they're they're
21:50
great. They're awesome.
21:52
So you, you, I mean you stay in five star hotels getting first
21:56
class tour buses. They take you to the real
21:59
biblical sites that bring the Bible to life.
22:03
It's just awesome that we get to go back and I can't wait.
22:07
Yeah, Brett, my life is made around food.
22:09
I love food. I love gathering and eating.
22:12
So if if I'm around somewhere, we're going to be eating and
22:14
it's going to be good. You you read the gospel of Luke,
22:18
all Jesus did was eat and talk about food.
22:21
That's right, Brian Edwards big shout out here.
22:24
Brian. I know we mentioned different
22:25
people. If I'm somewhere that I don't
22:27
really know where I'm at and what's good around, I promise
22:30
you I can text Brian Edwards. He may not respond that day.
22:33
It may be the next week or the next month, but Brian's going to
22:37
text back and he's going to tell me all the crazy great hole in
22:40
the wall restaurants are in that place with him traveling with
22:43
his dad. He went to all these little
22:45
places and he just, he just knows them.
22:47
The other day we last year we met up for breakfast or
22:50
somewhere and, and I said, Hey, where do you want to go?
22:52
And he said, meet me here. It's a great place.
22:54
I've never heard of it before. And so we met and had breakfast
22:57
and it was one of the best breakfast experiences I ever
23:00
had. And the man just knows food.
23:03
So if I'm going to be hanging out with people, it's going to
23:05
be with food and it's going to be a great time.
23:08
Last up that we've got coming up, we've got our what were the
23:12
two things? June, we've got our convention
23:14
there in Orlando. If you're going to be there or
23:16
be in the area, definitely hang us, hook us up, message us.
23:20
We'll have a house. We've already got some people
23:22
that said they're going to come over and hang out a couple of
23:23
nights. Be a great time for you to
23:25
connect with us, ask some questions.
23:28
And then Brett, we just had an opportunity open up for us.
23:31
It's actually going to work out where we can both go down.
23:33
In July, our churches are going to go down to Nicaragua and
23:38
we're going to do a joint trip again.
23:40
But we've been asked to go down and do a spiritual legalism and
23:44
abuse pastoral conference. And so we're going to be
23:47
speaking 5 or so sessions on what that is, how to live in
23:51
grace and live from spiritual legalism and abuse.
23:55
And just train about 100 pastors on what this looks like.
23:58
Give them some resources, some books, a brand new Bible or
24:02
reference study Bible. An awesome opportunity has
24:05
opened up with Lee United Christian Missions and a
24:08
partnership they have with Provision Financial Ministries
24:11
where they've got some grant money they're going to spend for
24:14
us to help train these pastors. And so I am so excited about
24:17
that. I've been praying and thinking
24:19
on over some notes and some topics that we've got that we've
24:23
been working through. And so I'm excited about that
24:26
and how the Lord's just opening some doors for us to be able to
24:29
do some things through the ministry of the podcast and we
24:33
we are excited for what is going on.
24:36
I mean, have the opportunity to train over 100 national pastors
24:41
from all over the country. It's just a great opportunity
24:45
that the Lord has given us and we want to be good stewards of
24:48
it. And we're looking
24:50
forward-looking forward to it. And I'm excited to go back down
24:54
in there. I was excited to go just to go
24:57
down there and help out, but have this opportunity to train
25:00
these pastors. It's going to be great.
25:02
We're at our church. We're going to have an interest
25:05
meeting I think the first Sunday in December for the Nicaragua
25:10
mission trip and get our get our, get our money raised, get
25:13
our funds together. But yeah, I'm excited about it,
25:16
man. It's going to be great.
25:18
Absolutely. One last thing before we jump
25:20
into our episode, we have been given a grant as well for the
25:25
podcast and the ministry to distribute our newest book that
25:29
came out from Brokenness to Freedom.
25:31
We've got about 200 copies that are going to be purchased with
25:34
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And so if you're interested in that, please, please let me know
26:35
so I can get that for you for. Freedom set me free.
26:40
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee.
26:43
Bracelet the flame. Now I'm puffing peace, cigars
26:46
and victory. Justified.
26:47
Released. Welcome to the Four Freedom
26:51
Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
26:54
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
26:58
everyday issues. I ain't.
27:00
Saved by dress codes, not by what I eat.
27:02
I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head
27:04
to feet. No tally of tradition.
27:06
No man made code. Blood bought my freedom.
27:09
Now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see
27:11
smoke rings rise, but my praise still ascends past the legalist
27:15
cries. Christ plus nothing.
27:17
That's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws
27:20
and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting
27:23
with Saints. Slipping grace from the bottle.
27:25
No room for face. I like one for liberty.
27:28
Toast to the king. Every ash of sermon.
27:30
Death has lost its sting. For freedom He set me free.
27:35
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee Grace, Let the
27:38
flame, now I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory justified
27:42
Release For freedom He set me free, not for change, not for
27:46
guilt, not for Pharisee grace let the flame now I'm puffing
27:50
peace, cigars and victory. Justified, Released.
27:54
Let grace begin for fruit on me, dead me, free.
27:57
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee.
28:00
Grace, let the flame down pop. Now here your host James
28:04
Seyfried and Brett Martin. Time to tackle our subject
28:08
today. And you know what we're talking
28:10
about today. It's uncomfortable, but it's
28:14
important. As you pointed out in the cold
28:16
open, the subject of today is manipulation.
28:20
And if there's anybody that you know has been through legalistic
28:25
background, one thing they know is manipulation.
28:28
Yeah, absolutely, Brett. We have, we've talked about this
28:32
before on the podcast. It's been hundreds so episodes
28:35
ago. So it's been a long time ago
28:37
since we actually addressed the topic of spiritual manipulation,
28:40
emotional manipulation. And so it was on my mind a
28:44
couple of days ago. I sent you a text.
28:46
And so when I got back from the convention, I just, I was
28:50
talking to some guys while I was at the convention and there was
28:52
just some manipulation that kept coming up in the conversation.
28:56
And so I really felt pressed. Hey, let's just put a pause on
29:00
where we're at. Talk about this idea of
29:02
spiritual and emotional manipulation and what that looks
29:05
like. Because one of the tricky things
29:07
about manipulation is it can often come from people we love
29:11
and we respect. You know, it's not always loud
29:15
or it's not as even obvious. It's often emotional and even
29:19
spiritual at times. And so having to figure that out
29:21
and having to recognize that, having the tools to recognize
29:25
that is an important thing to do.
29:29
Right. And so you know we need to ask
29:31
question what is manipulation. So at the at the top, let's
29:36
define it. You know, Webster Dictionary
29:38
says the manipulation is to control or play upon by artful,
29:44
unfair or insidious means. Yeah, the the biblical angle of
29:51
this is manipulation is used in unbiblical means to control or
29:59
influence others. I believe it was last year,
30:01
Brett, that the word of the year was love bombing or something
30:07
along those lines, or it was just this bombing.
30:11
Someone would love to cover up what was going on.
30:13
And that, that's really what manipulation can be in a lot of
30:16
areas. One of the words that I recently
30:19
learned was gaslighting. And you know.
30:23
Gaslighting. Yeah, for a long.
30:25
Time I didn't, you know, I didn't know what gas lighting
30:29
was, but man, and I have, especially in, in the church,
30:32
I've been gas lit like one of my pastors just gas lit the fire
30:38
out of me. And once you once you see it and
30:42
you recognize it, you have the tools equipped to deal with it.
30:45
It helps. But yeah, it, you know, it's
30:48
just not getting your way. It's using guilt, fear, emotion
30:52
to push someone to react instead of respond biblically, and
30:57
that's what we're here to address.
30:59
Yeah. Another way to put that would
31:00
be, Brett, is it's about controlling the outcomes through
31:05
emotion instead of through conviction.
31:08
And how we can do this is, is we we sometimes we do this not even
31:13
thinking about it. We already have the end goal in
31:16
mind. And so we have to manipulate the
31:19
situation to get what our end goal is.
31:23
That's manipulation. We're manipulating it to get the
31:26
outcome that we're wanting. And it can be for good purpose.
31:30
Some manipulation is for good purpose, right?
31:32
You want your kid to brush their teeth in the morning so they
31:35
don't have stinky breath and get made fun of at school.
31:38
And so you sometimes manipulate cohorts, you know, tell them,
31:42
convince them to do the things they need to do because of a
31:45
good outcome. And so there are some things
31:48
that you can do in a good manner.
31:51
And so we want to address that in, in, in the proper
31:54
perspective of life. Right.
31:57
Lou Preolo points out that this can show up through things like
32:01
intimidation, coercing someone by making them feel guilty or
32:06
threatened if if they don't comply.
32:08
And how often, you know, do we see this?
32:10
You know, you, you were just talking about, you know,
32:14
sometimes manipulation can be a good thing in certain contexts,
32:18
like your kid or whatnot. It's funny, I was studying
32:20
second Samuel, no, no, first kings today and it was how
32:24
Bathsheba and Nathan were kind of manipulating David that you
32:29
know, you know, to get Solomon on the throne.
32:32
And so, you know, so things like that.
32:35
But I, you know, making some, I've been made feel felt guilty
32:40
before. I've been threatened before.
32:43
So these are all all parts of manipulation that we are trying
32:47
to address. Yeah, and Lou Pirelli's book on
32:50
manipulation. I've got it here on my desk.
32:52
We'll tag that. Great little book.
32:54
Lee Pirelli wouldn't be with Lord just a couple of years ago
32:57
he passed away, but he put out just a little mini book here,
33:01
2530 pages on how do we go through manipulation?
33:05
How does manipulation look at our life?
33:07
How does Jesus respond to manipulation?
33:09
And we're going to use some of these things today as we talk
33:12
through this. But a great book.
33:14
If you've ever been in that, it's a great little resource for
33:17
you. George Simmon Simon, who also
33:21
wrote a book, he wrote a book called In the Sheep's Clothing,
33:25
put it like this. Manipulators often know us
33:28
better than we know ourselves. They know what bushes, what
33:32
buttons to push, when and how hard.
33:37
And if you've ever been manipulated or ever been cohorts
33:40
to do something, whether that be emotionally, spiritually, or
33:45
even physically, you know this better than others because
33:49
they'll say something and you just like your body freezes, you
33:52
don't know how to respond. You don't know what to do.
33:54
You go into that fight mode or just you begin to freeze and
33:58
they now have control over you. And now they're going to push
34:01
into what they believe and why they what they want you to do.
34:05
And you'd really you feel like you don't have control over
34:07
anything. You know, it's, it's scary
34:10
because it's true. You know, sometimes
34:12
manipulators, they use our compassion against us.
34:16
They act helpless, they act hurt or wounded when what's really
34:21
driving them is control. When I can tell you that, you
34:24
know, I've, I've kind of always been a pastor, but I experienced
34:28
this some whenever I was, you know, over the old change shop
34:32
and I had some, some people that worked under me try to
34:35
manipulate, use the fact that I was a pastor and play on the
34:40
fact that I went to church and I'm a pastor.
34:43
And, you know, I'm trying to punish them.
34:45
I'm trying to, you know, maybe fire them in some cases because
34:49
they weren't doing their job and they're just pleading with me.
34:53
Oh, don't, don't, don't write me up.
34:54
Don't do this. I'm, you know, I'm trying to
34:56
feed my family, whatnot and just trying to manipulate just like
35:01
this. We, we talked about it.
35:03
They're acting helpless, hurt, wounded.
35:06
And what's really, you know, what they're really trying to do
35:08
is just control you. Yeah, it's going to know those
35:11
things. James 4123.
35:13
This is the half brother of Jesus here in James.
35:16
He he let me read it for you and then I'll sort of give without
35:18
notes. It says where do wars and
35:21
fightings among you come from? You do not come from your own
35:24
lust that warn your body. You lust and you do not have, so
35:27
you kill. You desire to have and cannot
35:29
obtain. You fight in war, yet you do not
35:32
have because you do not ask. You ask and you do not receive
35:36
because you ask a miss that you may spend it on your passions.
35:42
Gives us the spiritual reason behind manipulation, right?
35:45
Our desires are out of order. And when our desires are out of
35:49
whack, we begin to want things that are not good for us.
35:53
And when someone resorts to manipulation, it's because they
35:57
either want something that's wrong or they're wanting
36:00
something too much. And our desires that the Bible,
36:04
the Puritan said like this, we have in orate desires.
36:07
We have desires that have been changed from what God has
36:09
designed us to have. And so our desires can turn into
36:14
manipulation because I want something.
36:17
I'm afraid you're going to take it away from me.
36:19
I feel threatened. And so I'm going to manipulate
36:21
or I'm going to coerce you into getting what I think I need
36:25
because I'm afraid it's going to get taken away or I may never
36:28
get it. And so I'm going to manipulate
36:30
the situation to get whatever it is that I want.
36:34
And if there, if we could look at one model to try to
36:39
understand how to deal with manipulation and manipulators,
36:45
we need to look no further than Jesus because he is the perfect
36:51
model when it comes to this thing, when it comes to this
36:56
stuff. Because listen, Jesus,
36:59
everybody, that everybody tried to manipulate Jesus, all the
37:03
Pharisees and the Sadducees, they're all trying to be
37:06
manipulated with him. And he was just a master at how
37:10
to handle people trying to manipulate him.
37:12
He never violated truth. We keep the peace and that's
37:16
another thing we can admire about.
37:17
That's good. That's really good.
37:18
Brett. You know, he never allowed
37:19
people to leave a conversation thinking they had outsmarted him
37:23
or even justified themselves. My mind immediately right now
37:26
goes to the thought of Jesus when he is coming right where he
37:33
was coming to the temple grounds.
37:34
And the, the, the, the Pharisees came to him and they asked him
37:39
about John the Baptist and, or I'm sorry, they asked him a
37:43
question and he responded, if you can answer my question
37:46
correctly, then I'll do what you want me to do.
37:48
And he asked them about John the Baptist.
37:50
And it says that the Pharisees reasoned within themselves and
37:54
said, if we affirm what he's saying about John the Baptist,
37:58
then the crowd's going to kill us.
38:00
And if we deny, we get wrong. If we deny that John the Baptist
38:04
was the prophet, then, you know, he was one of us.
38:08
And so that he put them in this pickle to where he allowed them
38:12
to understand what it is. And you know, this is what Jesus
38:15
did. He he did not allow the
38:17
conversation to be outsmarted or people to be able to justify
38:21
what they're saying and what they're doing.
38:24
Right. And you know, that brings us to
38:26
another passage of Scripture, and that's Proverbs 26, four and
38:30
five, which a lot of people see this as actually a contradiction
38:34
in the word of God. You're like, how can these two
38:37
things be true at the same time? And let me read you the verses.
38:40
This is Proverbs 26, verse four and five.
38:43
Verse 4 says, don't answer a fool according to his
38:46
foolishness or you will be like him.
38:49
So don't answer a fool. But then you go to the next
38:51
verse, verse 5, it says, answer a fool according to his
38:54
foolishness or he'll become wise in his own eyes.
38:58
So you know, you, you've got these two two, you know,
39:01
paradoxes here, you've got these two sides, the same coin.
39:04
Do we answer a fool according to his folly or or do we not?
39:08
And the answer is sometimes you answer fool and sometimes you
39:11
don't. Jesus model perfect discernment
39:15
and knowing which way, which approach to fit the moment.
39:18
And you know, sometimes, no, you're casting pearls to the
39:22
swine when you answer a fool. But other times, if you let them
39:27
go unanswered, they're going to they're going to mislead other
39:31
people, they're going to lead other people down the wrong
39:33
path. So you have to have discernment
39:36
and wisdom as a Christian to know when to keep your mouth
39:39
shut and when to say something. Yeah, discernment is a huge
39:43
thing. Man, we oftentimes I will put my
39:47
foot in my mouth. I will insert foot in mouth
39:51
moment often. And man having that discernment
39:54
to know when to say what to say, why to say things is massive.
39:58
And it's, it's part of that's the Holy Spirit allowing the
40:00
Holy Spirit to guide us and, and to go through those things.
40:04
Priola he he notes 2 key things. With the way Jesus responds and
40:08
we're going to let Brett go through a couple of examples
40:11
here of how Jesus responded the the the two ways that he did it.
40:14
He's the first thing is he appealed to their conscience.
40:19
He reminded people of their biblical responsibility.
40:23
I love the Lord your God, your heart, soul, mind and strength.
40:26
The rich young ruler comes to him and he says I want to follow
40:29
you and he tells him deny your cross.
40:31
Take up your cross daily and follow me.
40:33
He's telling them of their biblical responsibility they
40:38
have as people who are in this world.
40:41
We're in this world, but not of this world.
40:43
And Jesus reminded them of that and reminded us as we look back
40:47
on the words of Jesus, this is our heart that we must get right
40:51
as we go through these moments of we respond to manipulation.
40:57
The second thing here is he appealed to the God's Word,
41:01
holding up truth as the standard, not emotion.
41:05
Often times, Brett, I'm guilty of this.
41:08
And one of the most common things in biblical counseling in
41:13
my life over the last couple of years is I don't feel like doing
41:18
that. I don't, I don't feel like they
41:20
deserve my forgiveness. I don't feel like they deserve.
41:24
But what happens is it goes into that emotion and God is telling
41:28
us that truth is the standard truth of the word of God.
41:32
Truth of what God has said and what he has declared as truth is
41:36
the standard we live by. We don't live by our feelings or
41:39
emotions, as hard as that is, because we're emotional
41:42
creatures. We must live in the realm of
41:46
truth because our emotions are going to lie to us.
41:49
Our emotions are going to tell us that we need things too.
41:52
I went yesterday and we have went to an all you could eat
41:55
sushi restaurant, Brett. My emotion was telling me that I
42:00
need to eat more. And so I eat more because it was
42:03
all you could eat. And I'm trying to eat more and
42:05
more. And I got to the point where I I
42:08
did a dinner last night and then I had a heartburn because I ate
42:10
so much food because emotionally I was telling myself I needed
42:14
more. Truth of the matter is I didn't
42:18
need anymore. I hate too much.
42:20
I paid the price later. But when you listen to your
42:23
emotions, if they're going to lead you out of whack, we've got
42:27
to live in the foundation of God's Word and the truth of
42:30
God's Word. Exactly and you know, just let's
42:34
just think there's some examples in the gospels.
42:37
First you have Martha and Luke chapter 10.
42:40
You know, you've got these two sisters that Jesus is, is
42:45
visiting and, and Mary sitting with Jesus and Martha is like
42:49
man Jesus, tell her to get up and help me and kind of throwing
42:53
it on Jesus like Jesus, how come you're not helping me?
42:56
How come you're not, you're not, you know, telling her to come
43:01
here. I'm doing all this for y'all.
43:03
I'm, I'm trying. And listen, Jesus, like, hold on
43:05
a second, Martha, hold on just a second.
43:08
Think about what you're doing. She's doing the greater thing.
43:11
You know, she's here. She's listening to me.
43:13
And this is kind of what you need to be doing.
43:15
You need to take a step back and Martha's letting her motions,
43:18
like you said, you know, get in front of the fact that the Lord
43:23
Jesus Christ is there and the Jesus wasn't always going to be
43:26
with them. This was a temporary thing.
43:28
They wouldn't always have Jesus. So sitting there listening to
43:32
Jesus was the place where they needed to be.
43:36
Another example is Mary and Joseph when Jesus was 12 years
43:40
old. And Jesus, you know, they, they
43:42
couldn't find him for a couple of days.
43:44
And so they go back to the city and they're looking for Jesus.
43:47
And it turns out Jesus was in the temple the whole time and,
43:51
and they finally found Jesus and they said to Jesus, Jesus, why
43:55
did you treat us this way? And Jesus like, no, you're not
43:59
that. I've been about my father's
44:00
business. I mean, once again, AP, you
44:03
know, they, they got so wrapped up in, in their emotion that
44:06
they didn't think about the fact, hey, this is the son of
44:09
God. Where else is he going to be?
44:11
He's going to be, you know, about his father's business.
44:15
We've talked several times about the Pharisees and scribes
44:19
constantly trying to trip up Jesus, laying traps for Jesus,
44:24
and Jesus would just shut them up each time.
44:28
And I think this is an example of when to answer somebody, when
44:33
to answer a fool. According to his filing, Jesus
44:36
answered the Pharisees because these were leaders, this was
44:40
public. These were public discourses and
44:43
if Jesus. Would have just.
44:44
Walked away from these instances.
44:46
These Pharisees would have led people astray, and that's not
44:51
what Jesus is there to do. So Jesus is, you know, these
44:55
Pharisees and scribes are constantly trying to twist
44:58
truth, to trap him. And then, of course, you've got
45:02
Missus Zebedee trying to get, you know, her sons to sit at the
45:07
right hand and left hand of Jesus.
45:09
You've got a mom lobbying for her son's promotion and trying
45:14
to get the sons to ask Jesus certain questions and use
45:19
Jesus's words against him to say that they get to be, you know,
45:24
greatest in the Kingdom. And Jesus hit a Mac with look,
45:28
you know, the the greatest, the the greatest on earth is least
45:33
in the Kingdom. If you want to, you know, if you
45:36
want to lead, if you want to be great, then you got to serve
45:38
somebody. So he flipped their
45:40
expectations. He didn't let them set the
45:43
narrative. And you know, like I said, this
45:45
is just a master class of how to deal with manipulation.
45:49
You go through the life of Christ.
45:52
So this is, it wasn't just Pharisees and Sadducees and
45:56
scribes trying to trap Jesus. These were his followers.
46:00
These were his just own disciples trying to trap Jesus
46:04
in his words and manipulate him to get what they wanted.
46:08
Because at the end of the day, we're humans and we're selfish
46:11
creatures. Yeah, I love that illustration
46:13
of of Martha and Mary because when Jesus responds, we get this
46:18
beautiful picture of what it truly looks like it and you said
46:20
it. He redirected them to the God's
46:23
truth and to their own heart motives.
46:25
He looked at Martha and he said, Martha, Martha, why are you
46:28
worried and bothered about so many things?
46:31
He, he, he puts this back on her and he says, look at your own
46:34
conscience. Look at where you're at and look
46:37
at how you have a better responsibility.
46:39
And then he brings us back around.
46:42
And he said, there's only one thing that is necessary.
46:45
And Mary has chosen the good part, which shall never be taken
46:49
away from her. And he gives us back to God's
46:52
truth and God's principle of how we can live a perfect life, how
46:55
we can live a life for God, how we can have our actions and
46:58
truth go into that way. And so in all these cases, Jesus
47:03
responds calmly. He redirects them to God's truth
47:07
in their own heart and says, hey, let's examine where you're
47:09
at. Let's examine what you're doing
47:12
and how you're going through this in your own life.
47:16
Amen. That's good stuff.
47:18
You know, how do we detect manipulation?
47:21
We have to get our feelers out. We got to see it coming.
47:25
The one thing the manipulators love to do is accuse others of
47:29
sin that they didn't commit. And so that's one thing we got
47:33
to think about. That's exactly right.
47:35
It's one, one person said like this.
47:38
It's emotional blackmail, shaming someone into compliance.
47:43
You're you know, a lot of times when you would join a sorority,
47:47
they would make you do crazy things and they would video or
47:49
they would take pictures of it. A lot of Colts, if you've ever
47:53
read and and looked at any of that, they would have what they
47:56
would call blackmail that they would actually have to if you
47:59
ever left that or turned them in, they would have something
48:02
against you, a writing of a letter, something that you went
48:06
through that you could, they can manipulate you into keeping you
48:10
into submission. This is the same way when we
48:13
have and sometimes the shaming, you know, don't tell mom and dad
48:17
this because you know, I don't want to get in trouble.
48:20
But if you do tell mom and dad, I'll tell mom and dad what you
48:23
did. One of the ways, and we're going
48:26
to go through this here in a minute couple of different
48:28
illustrations was me and my sister, right?
48:31
My sister was two years older than me and she had begin dating
48:35
a black guy and my dad was against that for many years.
48:38
And so her and this black guy, Reggie, who she's now married to
48:43
was dating. And I was playing football and I
48:46
had a little bit of a potty mouth, my custom football field
48:49
and did some things I should have done, said some things I
48:51
shouldn't have done. And so she came to the one day
48:53
and she said, if you tell dad that being Reggie you're dating,
48:57
I'm going to tell dad that you've been cussed on football
48:59
field, right? It was emotional blackmail to
49:03
keep me from saying things that I should have said, not should
49:07
have said at the moment, But, you know, out of out of the
49:09
protection of her in that moment, what I could have
49:12
thought that would have been. But she was manipulating me to
49:15
get what she wanted to keep me into checking in the line
49:18
because I didn't want to get in trouble either.
49:19
So, yeah, that that could happen.
49:21
Brett, why don't you tell us some types of relationships that
49:24
this can happen to and see if maybe any of these fit into your
49:27
contacts, listener of where you're at?
49:30
So manipulation happens in every type of relationships.
49:34
You know you've got friend to friend manipulation, you know
49:39
who knows you better than your friend.
49:40
And a lot of times friends can use the information that they
49:44
have on you to manipulate you for your purposes.
49:48
Another is is parent to child. And you know, the parents try to
49:54
manipulate the children and even children try to manipulate the
49:58
parents, pitting mom and dad against each other.
50:02
Listen, I'm going to tell the bad news to this parent because
50:06
they're the good cop and I'm going to avoid the bad cop over
50:09
here. And, you know, I'm going to, you
50:11
know, if I ask so and so, they'll say no.
50:14
But if I ask so and so, they'll say yes.
50:16
And so you got to watch out for this.
50:18
And, and you had told the story of your siblings.
50:20
I've, I've been, you know, manipulated by my cousins
50:24
before. I remember one time my cousin
50:26
Richie drove up to my grandparents house on my dad's
50:30
tractor. And he's like, before he left,
50:34
he's like, your dad gave me permission to drive a tractor.
50:37
And I, I knew that wasn't the case.
50:40
And he's just trying to manipulate me and, you know,
50:42
thinking I wouldn't tell dad about it, but husband and wife
50:47
and wife to husband. There's, you know, manipulation
50:51
there employer to employee. And then of course, there's
50:55
church leader to church member. And listen, I can, you know,
50:58
I've told this in my testimony that I gave back when I first
51:03
started on the podcast, but I had to pet my pastor, straight
51:07
up just emotionally manipulate me to get me to stay in his
51:13
church, running his children's church.
51:17
I came in there and just as excited because, you know, I've
51:21
been there wanting to be a pastor.
51:23
And I was excited that I had a church looking at me.
51:26
I was going to go candidate in this church.
51:28
So I came in there and said, hey, preacher, listen, in two
51:31
weeks, I'm going to be gone on Sunday because I've got this
51:35
church. They want me to come candidate
51:37
and preach to be their pastor. That man took his hand and
51:41
slammed it down on the desk just as hard as he could.
51:45
Shocked me it because I had never seen him that way.
51:49
I've never seen him that mad before.
51:51
And you know, what are you doing?
51:53
Why are you doing this? How did you find out about this
51:57
church? Was like, well, I sent him my
51:58
resume. Oh, you're looking for a church
52:00
like you're looking for a job at McDonald's.
52:02
When God wants you, he'll call you.
52:05
You know, you'll get a phone call one day.
52:07
This ain't like trying to get a job at McDonald's.
52:10
And I found out the root cause of him trying to do this was
52:17
because he didn't want to lose me as far as it's like I was
52:21
doing good doing the children's church.
52:23
We had a hundred kids in children's church from the
52:25
buses. And if I was gone, he wouldn't
52:28
have anybody to run it. So it was a very selfish thing.
52:31
And man, he lamblasted me that day.
52:34
And you know, not use that as an opportunity to hit other soft
52:39
spots in my life. And I walked out of that room
52:41
shaking, shaved my beard off that day because he said I'll
52:46
never go to good church if I have a beard.
52:49
And then that was kind of, that was the instance that broke me
52:52
because it was about 3 or 4 days later when I woke up, I was
52:55
like, oh, oh, I was being manipulated.
52:58
And that's when I woke up to the situation I was in.
53:02
And I got out of there just as quick as I could.
53:05
But man, just a lot of manipulation there.
53:07
You heard it here first. Brett became woke in that
53:10
moment. When John's episode, he said
53:15
something similar to that and I made the exact same statement.
53:17
I want to give 3 illustrations here to sort of bolster those
53:21
points. The the I'm going to give the
53:22
husband and wife illustration and the church leader to church
53:25
member illustration and some phrases that maybe you may hear.
53:29
For instance, the husband made to say to his wife, if you
53:32
really loved me, you would cover for me.
53:36
The biblical response we can give for that is, you know, love
53:38
doesn't rejoice in iniquity, but you know, love what it does, it
53:42
rejoices in truth. And because I love you, I'm not
53:45
going to lie for you. I'm not going to lie to you.
53:47
I'm going to tell you the truth. You know, when someone, it comes
53:51
into the counseling room and they tell me what's going on in
53:54
their life and they tell me what's going on in the world, I
53:56
love them enough to tell them the truth.
53:58
And I'm going to tell them the truth that what they're doing is
54:00
wrong or wicked or sinful, and they need to change from those
54:03
ways. And so that's that's a huge
54:05
thing to do. Another way would be a wife to a
54:07
husband. And it may say like this, that's
54:10
just like you men, you're all so selfish.
54:14
And and the biblical response could be, you know, Bible
54:17
teaches that men and women are both sinful.
54:19
Men and women are both selfish. And so we can begin to address
54:24
this from a biblical perspective.
54:26
And I'm sure we've got a dear listener on this episode.
54:30
I don't know who you are. I'm not saying this because I
54:32
know exactly who I'm talking about.
54:34
But this is a statement that I know you've heard because I've
54:37
heard it is if your priorities were right, you'd be at church
54:42
every time the doors were open, every time.
54:45
Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Friday night,
54:47
sold, winning Saturday, Sunday morning, Sunday, whatever it is,
54:49
you're going to be here, right? And that's the manipulation of
54:53
the spiritual leader from the pulpit.
54:56
You know, the biblical response could be this.
54:58
You know, brother, could you show me in the Bible where it
55:01
says that Christians are supposed to be at church every
55:03
time the doors are open? Haven't you told us that God has
55:07
given Christians other priorities besides they're just
55:10
church responsibilities? And so as long as we're being
55:14
faithful and we're giving faithfully and we're serving
55:17
faithfully, then that that that would be what we need.
55:20
But not this man made ideology of Sunday morning, Sunday night,
55:24
Wednesday night. You're not going to find a
55:26
Sunday night service in Scripture.
55:28
Brett, you say that and I'm going to come back and talk just
55:31
a minute on the history of Sunday night services.
55:34
I've I've got just one more thing to add in there too.
55:36
I'm going to speak to the parent child manipulation because I
55:42
think for a lot of our listeners and our audience, this speaks to
55:46
their context. Because you've got kids who've
55:49
grown up and now have left the IFB and mom and dad are still in
55:54
legalism, They're still in the IFB and they're trying to
55:58
manipulate their kids to come back to the true church and come
56:03
back to the IFB and come back to the KJV.
56:07
And some different tactics that a parent might use on their
56:11
children, even grown adult children, for instance, is like
56:15
good guilt tripping. Guilt tripping is another
56:18
manipulation form. You know, after all I've done
56:21
for you, how can you you do this to me?
56:25
I've guilt trip so many times it's crazy.
56:28
Another it is the silent treatment.
56:30
Maybe they'll shut you out and, and not talk to you or limit,
56:35
you know, limit responsive to you or what not.
56:38
And this is just a way to get you to bend to their will for
56:42
them to control you by shutting you out.
56:46
Conditional love, a conditional love is where they're only warm
56:51
to you when they, when you do things that they like, you do
56:55
things that they approve of that as soon as you step out of that,
56:59
they're cold to you again. It's another form of
57:02
manipulation. And, and here's the big one.
57:05
It's just playing the victim. You know, you may, you just made
57:08
me so sad. I don't know what I did to to
57:11
deserve this. And you know, just it.
57:14
These are just different tactics that so I want you to recognize
57:18
these. So if if your parents are trying
57:21
to even you're you're you're grown, grown adult, but your
57:24
parents are still trying to manipulate you.
57:26
Maybe if you see these you can recognize Oh my parents are
57:31
trying to manipulate me. Yeah.
57:33
You know when I wanted to go back for just a moment that
57:36
Three to Thrive idea, because I was reading somewhere recently
57:40
about sunlight services and how they started.
57:43
And I was amazed that the actual reason that sunlight started,
57:46
but you may not even know this was because we used to always
57:51
meet at locations during the daytime.
57:54
We couldn't meet at night time because it was a power
57:56
electricity and they were had to use candles when it started
57:59
getting dark. It was just inconvenient.
58:01
It wasn't a great way. But when the inventation of
58:04
electricity and the light bulb happened, some of the places,
58:08
the first local places that got power was churches because they
58:11
needed power to do things. And it was, you know, you would
58:14
reach the hub of whether the the church was the center of the
58:17
hub, you would reach there and you'd sort of branch out.
58:20
So some of the very first locations in America that got
58:24
power and light bulbs were churches.
58:27
And so a way that churches use this as an evangelical tool was,
58:31
hey, come to church on Sunday night, we'll turn the light
58:36
bulbs on and you can experience preaching and teaching and
58:39
worship on a Sunday night. And it was this outreach tool
58:43
and evangelism tool that brought people in on a Sunday night.
58:47
They had nothing else to do because there was nothing else
58:49
to do on Sunday night. They had no power that no, they
58:51
just sat around their house and did whatever they were doing.
58:53
And so this was a way to bring people into a different style of
58:57
service, very vigilistical. I got saved to the Sunday night
59:01
church. OK, That's that's where I, I
59:02
made my decision to follow Christ.
59:04
That was the Sunday night church, but that's where it
59:06
started at. There was never like this
59:08
biblical mandate to do it. And so now I have sort of went
59:14
backwards. I I want to go and be with my
59:16
family or be with other people's family on Sunday night because
59:19
there's so much more intentionality to that.
59:23
So, yeah, you know, as we sort of wrap up this episode and sort
59:26
of go through some foul things, you know, this is not limited to
59:29
personality. This is a hard issue.
59:32
Every single person that has ever existed can fall.
59:36
Privy to. Manipulation, Social, spiritual,
59:40
emotional, physical manipulation.
59:42
We also can be the victimizer of manipulation.
59:46
Any of us can be tempted to use manipulation when we feel
59:51
powerless. This is typically when it comes
59:53
up is when we feel that we have no longer power to control the
59:56
situation or we're not controlling the situation where
1:00:00
we want to, and so we use this power to manipulate others.
1:00:04
Right, let let me read a verse for you.
1:00:06
Proverbs 1528 says The heart of the righteous ponders how to
1:00:11
answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
1:00:15
What do you think about that verse, James?
1:00:17
You know, I hear this first and I think, you know, instead of
1:00:21
reacting and often times I'm the guy that I'm very clear there.
1:00:25
I'm thinking of the answer before the the word driven
1:00:28
finished speaking. What it's telling us is
1:00:30
sometimes it's good to pause. Sometimes it's good to pause and
1:00:32
ask yourself, am I responding biblically or am I responding
1:00:36
most emotionally? You know, the heart of the
1:00:39
righteous ponders how to answer. Am I stopping and thinking, am I
1:00:44
saying this because this is going to make James safer, feel
1:00:46
good, and look good? Or am I saying this because this
1:00:49
is what the Bible says that should be said and this is what
1:00:53
God has commanded us to do and this is how Jesus would have
1:00:55
responded. One of the things that was this
1:00:58
last weekend when we were talking with some guys at the
1:01:01
convention, I made the statement because one of the men that we
1:01:05
were with, great guy that we met, his name is Tim, Pray for
1:01:08
Tim. I hope to meet Tim again one day
1:01:12
and get to hang out with him again.
1:01:13
We had a great conversation, but but Tim made the statement.
1:01:16
He said, I just as I go through life and I begin to think
1:01:22
through the evil things that happened in this world, he said,
1:01:26
I think about how Jesus would have responded and I got to walk
1:01:29
through Luke and then just walk through what Jesus did.
1:01:31
And I said, Jesus sat with sinners, He went to the woman at
1:01:35
the well. He there was a woman caught in
1:01:37
adultery and Jesus lovingly cared for her and cared for all
1:01:41
these different people. But the one thing he did at the
1:01:44
end of every single one of those stories is he looked at those
1:01:46
people and he said go and sin no more.
1:01:50
I said we have to love people enough to tell them to no longer
1:01:54
sin, to tell them that what they're doing is wicked and
1:01:56
ungodly. And that's not making me look
1:01:59
better. I didn't look good in Tim's eyes
1:02:02
when I told him that, but I gained some respect from them, I
1:02:07
think because of the way we responded later on.
1:02:09
And that's how we can respond. Biblically is telling each other
1:02:13
the truth, not necessarily out of emotion.
1:02:16
Right. And listen, if you're on the
1:02:18
receiving end of manipulation, don't play that game.
1:02:23
Don't do it. Respond with truth and grace,
1:02:26
not guilt or fear. You have the tools to recognize
1:02:32
when somebody's trying to manipulate you and go back to to
1:02:36
the Proverbs. You know know when have
1:02:39
discernment, know when to answer a fool, know when to walk away
1:02:43
and and know when to answer them.
1:02:45
Know when to be silent. Know when to speak and look to
1:02:50
Jesus, looked at his life, look to how he handled the situations
1:02:56
because he he was he was a master at dealing with
1:02:58
manipulators. Yeah, it reminds me of the old
1:03:03
song by Kenny Rogers back in 1978.
1:03:05
Brett called The Gambler. Got to know when to hold them.
1:03:09
You got to know when to fold them.
1:03:12
Let me. I pulled the lyrics up just now.
1:03:14
You. Want me to walk away?
1:03:16
Got to know when. To run.
1:03:17
Got to know when to run. You never count your money while
1:03:21
you're sitting at the table. There'll be enough time for
1:03:23
counting when the dealer's done. You got to know when to hold
1:03:26
them. You got to know when to fold
1:03:28
them. And that is a great point.
1:03:30
Love that song lyric you brought in the, you know, the RFP guys
1:03:34
always brought up Casting Crowns.
1:03:37
Maybe Kenny Rogers is the guy we bring up.
1:03:39
And we start bringing up a Kenny Rogers song every.
1:03:42
Every time we're there, you go, yeah, You know, I like how you
1:03:47
said that the, if you have been manipulated, how to do that.
1:03:50
But maybe you've realized that you were the manipulator.
1:03:53
And maybe you look over the last couple of weeks of your life and
1:03:56
you begin looking and hearing some of these things and go, you
1:03:59
know, that was me. I was manipulating someone in
1:04:01
that area. Now is the time to repent.
1:04:04
Now is the time to confess that that desire for control was
1:04:08
ungodly and to replace it with trust in God's sovereignty and
1:04:13
understanding that you don't have to be in control always.
1:04:16
You can trust the Lord. He is the God that is sovereign
1:04:19
and in control when there's provision there in His ways.
1:04:23
And maybe that was where you're at today.
1:04:25
That's right, you know. Ultimately, freedom from
1:04:27
manipulation, whether giving or receiving, comes from letting
1:04:31
Christ be the one in control. Yeah, it's great stuff.
1:04:34
But I think, I think this is something we all struggle with.
1:04:37
We just don't think about it enough.
1:04:39
And the more we think about it, the more we can actually begin
1:04:41
to say, am I doing this out of control?
1:04:44
Am I doing this out of love or out of what Lord wants me to do?
1:04:48
And you know, and listen, manipulation isn't always evil
1:04:52
looking, you know, sometimes it comes dressed up, sometimes it
1:04:56
can wear the mask of concern or I'm just concerned but you don't
1:05:00
want to recognize it. Yeah.
1:05:02
And one of the things that I've learned over my years is, is
1:05:05
this one little statement, truth and love, when they come in
1:05:08
contact with each other, when the love that you have towards
1:05:11
someone and the truth of God's Word comes in contact with that
1:05:14
same love, the control that we have will lose its grip because
1:05:19
we love someone so much that we're going to tell them the
1:05:21
truth and we're not going to try to control what they're doing.
1:05:23
But if either one of those is out of balance, you'll continue
1:05:27
to have control and you'll continue to fight to manipulate,
1:05:30
to have that control over others or someone's going to manipulate
1:05:33
you to have control over you because they don't truly love
1:05:36
you or truly have the truth for you.
1:05:38
And so understanding that is a massive, massive way.
1:05:43
Amen. Amen.
1:05:44
That's good stuff. Well, thanks for joining us if
1:05:46
this episode, if this episode has helped you share it with
1:05:49
someone who needs biblical clarity on this issue.
1:05:53
And James, you got anything else?
1:05:55
I think that's it, man. It's been a great talk and we've
1:05:57
got just like two or three episodes left for this year and
1:06:00
then we'll take a break for the winter.
1:06:02
And so be on the lookout for that.
1:06:04
Thank you for listening these last couple of weeks.
1:06:06
And like I said of the earlier part, go by and check out our
1:06:10
products that we have on our website.
1:06:12
Go by and if you're interested in Israel, reach out to us, get
1:06:15
rest of those free books. Let us know.
1:06:17
And we are looking forward to what God is going to do for us
1:06:20
in 2026. We've already been planning for
1:06:22
it. We're excited for what he's got
1:06:24
going on. And until next time, to God be
1:06:26
the glory. Great things he has done found.
1:06:31
My new name found that good grace.
1:06:35
I found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when I
1:06:39
found my beginning that has no ending.
1:06:41
I found that second chance, found my best friend, found my
1:06:43
forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since.
1:06:45
I found my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
1:07:03
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