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When Lethal Injection Fails & the Cornell 7 (w. Professor Corinna Lain) · Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Brief Recess is nominated for a Signal Award, and you
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: can help us win the Listener's Choice Award. Go to vote.signalaward.com,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: navigate to Categories, select Genre, then click Activism, Public Service,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and Social Impact to find Brief Recess and cast your vote.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foote.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I'm Melissa Malbranch.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Today we're going to talk about paranormal activity on Broadway.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: We're going to do a PSA to stop taking your
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: dogs everywhere. We discuss the Cornell 7 and the Nolan
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Wells case. Then we sit down with Karina Lane to
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: discuss the recent failed execution in Tennessee. And we're going
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: to answer all your questions from the DMs. So stick around.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I did it in one take.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: You're a professional.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I get one cigarette now. That's my treat. One drunk
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: cigarette per year.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Leave that in. I want my husband to see that.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I want him to know.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: What?
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: That I'm going to have a drunk cigarette this year.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: A drunk cigarette?
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: One drunk cigarette a year I think is okay.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Surgeon's general warning. Just one.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Just one? One a year.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: They say it takes five minutes off your life.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Okay. I mean.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: What am I going to do with those five minutes?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Smoke. He's sick of me.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: He's so sick of my show.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Are you going to. Do a Halloween. Do you and
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Brad do stuff for Halloween? Yeah.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: No, no, no.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: We always do a Halloween like a couple's costume.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Or any costume.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Let's get into a sidebar about people who do fucking
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: couple's costumes.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Oh, boy.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I'm sick of it. Are you? I want a group costume.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: My friend wants to do the Gilmore Girls episode where
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Lorelai shows up to Chilton. It's laundry day, the first
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: day of Chilton. Is that too niche? Very. All right.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be a Byron gnome.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: That's too easy.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Let's be Lauren Bobert staff.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Ooh. Okay. I was, I literally just thought about it
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: and asked you a question and got more than I anticipated.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Brad and I did. Okay. So this was before heated rivalry.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: We did, we were, uh, Tattoo, all the things she said,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: the lesbian schoolgirls for Halloween. You know the infamous music video?
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Famous, infamous. Yes. We were the Russian schoolgirls one Halloween,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: but I forgot my skirt. I left my skirt at home.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: So you didn't do it. So Brad did it.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I was from the waist up. Yes, I was her. Yeah,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: but the skirt is... It was pretty integral. People were...
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Pretty confused.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I can imagine.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Andre and I, would I- Yeah, what did you do? Well,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: we haven't done anything in a long time, but we
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: used to do couples costumes. However, they were always like
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: super cheesy. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: like we didn't think about it really hard. I would
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: go and I would buy something dumb, like he was salt,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I was pepper. Like it was dumb, stuff like that. But-
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going with my brother and sister-in-law to take the
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: baby out for his first sort of Halloween.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: And I feel like I should dress up. But it
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: needs to be something that I could do myself.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: If one of you was like pizza and the other
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: was a rat? He was like a little slice of pizza.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: He was like a little slice of pizza.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I love that. If you're going to do a couple's costume,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: it's got to be high concept.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: I think it needs to be very cute.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Or cheesy so that people know that you're making fun
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: of it. Do you know what I mean? Not like, oh,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: we really thought about this.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Or super niche, like an electrocuted rat and then the
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: third rail. You know what I mean? You want it
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: to be kind of... Can we get into an algorithm
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: of showing actually about this?
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my algorithm has been nuts lately.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I fell victim to an online purchase.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: What'd you buy, Michael?
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Tickets to see Paranormal Activity on Broadway. Okay, and we
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: went for our anniversary.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: It was your wedding anniversary recently, yeah.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: We went to see Paranormal Activity on Broadway together because
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I bought the tickets on an Instagram reel.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Was it good?
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Melissa.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: What?
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: This show is so insane.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: But good insane?
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: No.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Or like, oh, no.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: No.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Oh, no.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: The calls coming from inside the house. Oh, no.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: Oh, no, no, no.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And the crowd of people that go see paranormal activity
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: on Broadway on a Saturday night.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Good seats.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Who is it?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Like, imagine someone who owns like a lizard store in Florida.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Like a snake wrangler in the Everglades.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Like the Tiger King?
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I'm in line for the bathroom.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Before, let me just ask you this. Did you, where's
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: the fucking bell? Where's my bell?
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: Ding.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Before you bought the tickets, did you look in to
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: see what it was? No. No. You know something? Not
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: even for a second. I don't know if you were
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: hoping that I would feel bad for you.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: No.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Don't feel anything for me.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: No, I feel nothing.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Because I wasted. And then I was like, you know what?
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: I'm here. I'm going to waste all my money just
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: buying food and candy and snacks and popcorn and soda.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I'm in line at the bathroom, though.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: I go into the bathroom. There's a woman waiting behind me.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: She seems just like a normal person. Brad's in line
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: behind her. I come out of the bathroom. He goes,
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: you won't believe what that woman said while you were
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: in the bathroom. She went up to an usher and said,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: I am so sorry. I have two broken ankles.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: What's going on? How was she standing? I don't know.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: And the usher goes, they didn't give you crutches? Instead,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: walk it off. Just walk it off. Take a couple Advil.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: She goes, I'm so sorry.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I have two broken ankles. Take some Robitussin.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Someone had a dog in the theater. Okay.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: I have a potentially controversial question.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I'm ready. Let's get into it.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I like dogs. Let me just put that out there.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And I really, really do like dogs. I wish Andre
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: has been annoying me about getting a dog.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I have two.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: And I want one, but you have to really be
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: home enough and take care of, and I am inside
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: the house a lot, but like, I don't know. Like
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: a dog is a really, really big commitment.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: And you need to be ready for it. You don't
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: want to be the person who gets a dog and
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: then give the dog back.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: So I like dogs. Okay. I have a question. Why
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: are people taking their dogs everywhere?
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: It's getting crazy.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Like, why? And again, I piss somebody off, I'm sure.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: But I am genuinely asking, like, why are you taking
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: your dog everywhere?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: You can't take Fido in the MRI machine. Like, people
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: are just getting– and the tea is that, like, people
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: are taking their dogs everywhere to places dogs don't want
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: to be. It's no longer, it's actually worse for the
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: dog to be at paranormal activity. Right. Fourth row, center.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Unless it is a service dog. And that's very, very different.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: There's no Bichon Frise that's a service dog.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's true.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: Is that not true?
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: It's possible. I think that any dog can be a
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: service dog.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: A teacup Yorkie.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's a not a service dog. Like
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: an emotional support dog?
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Benefit of the doubt. But I was just like... If
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: you're so anxious that you need the dog with you
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: all the time, is this really ableist of me?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: But you're not so anxious that you're still going.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: To paranormal activity.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: You're getting the poop scared out of you, but you
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: need your dog for comfort? That is actually kind of crazy.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Maybe we've gone too far.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe. I don't know. She's going to get upset with me.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: The woke.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: She's going to get upset with me, but I have
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: a friend who had a dog and she loved this dog. Loved, loved,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: loved this dog. And she would get upset if we
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: went someplace, like to a restaurant, and they were like, sorry,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: no dogs.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: And I used to always just be like, well, not everybody.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Some people are afraid of dogs, right?
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Is it a big dog?
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: It's a really sweet dog. A King Cavalier. So like
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: a sort of a medium size.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: It's pretty well behaved.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Very well behaved.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: It was a very civilized, medium sized dog.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: I'm okay with that.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Right. So am I, usually. But you can't. You can't
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: be upset at a restaurant owner who's just like, I'm sorry,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I don't want dogs in my space. And also that
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: there are people around you who may not want to
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: be near a dog. Yeah. The dog people are going
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: to come after me.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Or if they're allergic to a dog.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Allergic to a dog, afraid of a dog. Yeah. Don't
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: like dogs. Some people don't like dogs.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's crazy. If you don't like dogs,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: I think there's something wrong with you.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Do you remember this person that we knew?
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: You can be allergic to dogs. You can be afraid
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: of dogs, but if you just don't like them, you
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: have a problem.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the person that we knew who said.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: That- I like that we're holding hands.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Your hands are really cold. That they did not like,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: they didn't like kids or animals. Do you remember?
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: I know who you're talking about.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Do you know who I'm talking about?
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Remember?
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: We talked about her.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, I know her.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Yes. It's weird because she seemed like a cat person.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: She did seem like a cat person.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: She seemed like someone who was like- like cats.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: But she was like, and I remember it coming up
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: in the way that she said it. She was just like,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I don't like animals and I don't like kids. And
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: I was like, I think it's okay.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: You were like, whatever happened took a morning.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Well, like, I think it's okay to not like one
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: or the other, but you can't not like both.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: You can't.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: It's okay if you don't like kids, but you like animals.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Or it's okay if you like animals and you don't
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: like kids.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I know the commenters, their fingers are smoking on fire
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: as they're typing under this video.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I just felt like, whatever, man.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: But I love it. But you know what? We're born
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: with so many fucks to give.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: And I'm running out of them.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: And we're running out of them.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: I'm running out of them.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I'm running out of them because I've got two broken
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: ankles and I'm seeing paranormal activity.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: With my dog.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: With my service dog. It was a different person. It
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: wasn't even her. It was a different person? I'd be like,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: all right, she's got, like, I get it. Yeah.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: What's in your algorithm lately?
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it was paranormal activity. Okay. Okay, and now
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: there's this guy who makes these glittery drinks, and then
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: he drinks them. His name's, like, Dr. Sips.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: The drinks have glitter in them?
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: And then what?
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: He makes, like, glittery, it's actually heroin, because it's, like,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: glittery Halloween cocktails.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: And then, like, Lauren Boebert.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Ben would never drink that.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Ben would never. Never. Lauren Bober. Yeah. It's like hopping
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: between politics and Halloween.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: I need to go back to the glittery drink guy.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: It's actually deeply.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: And then what?
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I'm worried. Because he starts the video by taking a
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: giant ice cube and putting it in the glass. But
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: he always pulls the ice cube out of his costume.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: He's always in like a Halloween costume. We don't know
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: where that ice cube's coming from. And the comments are
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: really worried about where the ice cube is coming from.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Because it's always... That's enough. Yeah. What about your algorithm, Melissa?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Because mine is disturbing.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: My algorithm has been actually incredibly disturbing, actually. I've been
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: getting a ton of the stuff about the Cornell.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Cornell 7.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: The Cornell 7. Terrifying. And I had said this on
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: my personal social media, and we talked about this before.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: The amount of people who have to buy into a
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: terrible idea, right? And so the seven men who sexually
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: violated this woman repeatedly, that's one thing. But they were
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: on a group text with about 40 some odd other guys.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: And I need to understand nobody on that group text
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Thought that they should say something to somebody because I
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: get it. I get it that you saw this and
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: you were like, oh, get the fuck out of here.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I don't I want no parts of this. But you
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: knew it was happening. You knew it was going to happen.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: And these are the same kind of people who love
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: their moms, love their grandmoms, love their sisters, their girlfriends,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: their partners, their friends. that woman is one of those
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: things to somebody.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Well, and I know that the Exactly Right Legal team
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: is going to be all over me about this, but
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: I don't care what is going on at Cornell where
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: that is so culturally instituted that none of the 49
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: people on that text thread thought that there was a
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: red flag there that they needed to raise with the administration.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: There were 1,200 accounts of sexual violence on Cornell campus
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: in the past decade.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: 1,200 complaints.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I actually really wonder what the development office is going
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: to do about this. The fundraisers. I mean, the fundraising office.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Because I mean, this is really terrible PR, right?
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God. And deservedly so. Yeah. But so what
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: is the conversation in the board of directors meeting? Right.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: The trustees. What is the conversation? What is the messaging?
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: And I, because I'm not tapped into that part, but
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I would love to know what the Cornell alumni think.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: What has been the chatter?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Because I imagine– and, like, this is all conjecture, so
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: don't sue me. I imagine the reason why the administration
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: buried this rape on campus and had the campus security, right,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: they filtered through the accounts to the prosecutor's office. They
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: didn't actually get any firsthand statements from the victim.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I imagine they buried it because they didn't want a
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: purifier storm and that they didn't want this. And now
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: it's you type in C-O-R into Google and it fills
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: out the rest.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I think that people at some point
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: or another, especially in the world that we are living
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: in today.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: There are no secrets.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: There are no secrets. It would have been better. I mean, obviously,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: this should not have happened to her at all. There
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: should have been a culture on campus of not violating people. However,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: if this were to happen, they should have gotten in
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: front of it. They should have put their support behind
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: this woman.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Looked to see who was involved. People needed to be expelled.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: And no essays. The idea that there was somebody who got.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: And now the Cornell name is synonymous with sexual violence.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, truly, if you mention Cornell to someone in
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: America right now, they will fill it out, continue and say,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: it's like saying Columbine.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: People don't say, what a great curriculum at that school.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: No.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Right? Like you say Columbine, they say shot and killed.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: Speaking of which, I just Googled it. That 1200 number.
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: It's 1,200 reports of sexual assault over seven years, which
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: led to 162 formal investigations, which led to seven people
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: getting expelled.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: CJ fact-checking me, that's more accountability than the assailants.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Correct.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Literally.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: And the other thing I'm thinking about is, I mean,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: there's so many parts of this, right? Kids applying to
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: college and Cornell was the dream. Yeah. And now what? Right.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: The freshman class of Cornell this year.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: I would love to see what the enrollment numbers are
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: next year.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: The applications for next year. Because Cornell, it's October.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This is the time.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: So there's freshmen on campus. They're bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, ready
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: to go to their first class. And what is it?
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: A media nightmare.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Could you imagine?
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: What's going to be the transfer rate?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Very high. Very high. And I've said this before.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I will say this again. I don't know how many
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: more examples we need to see to realize that this
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: country does not give a shit about women. They don't care.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: The president of the United States is a serial sex offender.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: He is a rapist.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: He's defending the Cornell 7.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Of course he is. Of course he is.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: He's like, I feel bad for what they're doing.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I feel bad for them. And we don't want to
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: ruin the lives of these young men. Get the fuck
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: out of here. They do not deserve to work anywhere. Anywhere.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: And I'm glad I heard, I read somewhere, and I
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: don't know if this is true or not. My understanding
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: is at least two of them were working at a
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: big firm and they got fired. Good.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Good. I.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't be newsworthy when there's accountability.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I want to see some punishment. It should not be.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I want to see some punishment.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Prosecution.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: So that's been my argument.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Quite a lot. I got a message. Laura Dunn wants
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: to come back on the podcast. She's a survivor of
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: campus rape and has advocated for this in legislation in D.C.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: So she's going to come back on next week. She
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: couldn't do it today. But she's going to come. So
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: it'll be next Thursday.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I... I love the idea that we have
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: had some really interesting guests who are well-versed in certain
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: topics and that we're able to use them as a
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: resource to have them back on. I just wish we
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: didn't have to.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: We didn't have to keep having on.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad that Karina's going to be on today.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Because Laura Dunn's coming next week. Karina Lane is coming
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: on today to talk about executions because of that botched
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: execution in Tennessee.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: And I just wish that we didn't have to have
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: them on. Do you know what I mean? It's great
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: to be able to.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: I would love to have a comic on every week. Sure. Yeah,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: it would be nice to not have to have on
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: the death penalty expert.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Because of a botched death penalty. Not because we're trying
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: to get educated.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Not because we don't love her, yeah.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Not because we're not looking for education, but because we
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: want her to discuss all the ways this went wrong. Yeah.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Ugh.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it is so, it's so distressing.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: It is distressing. And I mean, and the other, I'll say, sorry,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: I'll say the other thing that's been in my algorithm
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: is I am.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: I.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Am so dialed in to this Nolan Wells case. So
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: this country does not care about women at all. And
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: we know that they don't care about young black men either.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, I don't care what
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: they say. Those boys did something to Nolan Wells.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Well, he didn't drown.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: He didn't drown. He didn't drown. He didn't drown. And
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: his phone was manipulated. Yeah. So you tell me. There's
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: a part of me that just wants to sort of
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: gather up like young black boys and girls and just
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: try and explain to them why. they need to be
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: choosy about who they allow near them. I say this
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: to everybody, all the young people in my life. I
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: say this to KP all the time. You are the
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: most important person to us. And we want you to
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: be safe. We want you to come home every day.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: And not everybody should be allowed to be near you.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: And you need to be really choosy, no matter how
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: cool you think they are, how much fun you think
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: it is. It's not safe. It's not safe. I find
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: it really upsetting.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Excuse me. And it's good parenting advice, right? Like just having,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: making sure your kid is, I mean, I don't have kids,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: but I can imagine who you surround yourself with is
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: just as important as the choices you're making, whether it's
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: like a dangerous choice or not. Right.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I think, yes, it's important for kids
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: to know that. It's important to bring home that message.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: But I think it's important for us, right? Like, you know,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: think about the shitty relationships that you had in your early,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: you know, in your 20s, in your 30s. Do you
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? And like, or, you know, anyway.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I think Everybody needs to take home that lesson.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Be careful. Be really, really choosy. If somebody makes you
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: feel like shit about yourself or you feel uncomfortable. Right.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: It's not even just about like a Nolan Wells situation, right?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: It's about everything.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: It's about access to you. It is about everything. But
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I am really thinking about Nolan Wells. And I'm thinking
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: about young people of color who find themselves the only
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: one in their friend group. And you got to be careful.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: And I make no apologies for that. You know, you
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: have to be careful because it seems to me that
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: we are living in a world where black and brown people,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: queer people, women are disposable.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Right. No, it's true.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And no one cares about what happens to them. So
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: we need to care about what happens to us. Right. Right.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: So as a black woman who loves black people, that
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: is what I want to do. I want to protect them.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I keep thinking about the prosecutor, the chief investigator, that woman,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: that white woman in Mississippi who held a press conference
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: about how the white kids' families were getting threats.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Never mind about the dead black kid.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: In your district.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Didn't have a press conference over that.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Right, right. And just looking at Nolan Wells' mom talking
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: about her son, really, really just, it breaks my heart.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: It's such a waste. It's such a waste of a
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: young life, somebody who was full of potential and.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I have like no words. No, I agree.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: It's there's, I mean, there isn't, I don't know if
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: there is anything.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: It's just, it's just, it's, um, it's heartbreaking. It really,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: really is. Yeah. Right. And I mean, and, and the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: thing about it is, you know, there's, there's no reason,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: you know, we always trying to, um, We try and
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: have a really good time on our show, right?
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: No, I know.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: But we want to also talk about things that make
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: all of us a little uncomfortable because it's important. It's important.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want people to get involved in that investigation.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I think because it is... Mississippi, I feel like people,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: and it's a black kid, so many people are focused
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: on things like Lindsay Clancy. I keep talking about it,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: but they came up around the same time in my feed,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: in my algorithm, in my fan base. And I just
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: feel like that attention needs to- There's not.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Enough attention on this.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: There's not enough attention on this.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: There's not enough attention on this. There's not enough attention on.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Don Lemon's doing a great job. Yes. Don Lemon every
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: single day.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: He is.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: He is. But, you know, also the lynchings that are
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: taking place in the South.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Nancy Grace has, like, come back and, yeah.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: It's just not enough. And, you know, and it doesn't
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: help that, you know, the presence of the United States
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: is a disgusting, reprehensible human being. Right.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: And he's literally, like, it's not even a dog whistle anymore.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: It's just a whistle.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Like, they're wearing the hoods in public.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: They are.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, they are.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: And he's doing the same for the Cornell 7, right?
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's doing the same thing there. So, I mean,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: these are hard conversations. It doesn't mean we don't have them.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: And I think having people like Laura Dunn and Corrine
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Alleyne on to talk about it. So we have some
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: expertise in the room.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we need that.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay. We'll be right back. We're going to talk
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: about the death penalty. We're going to talk about the
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: recent botched execution in Tennessee. That defendant is currently on
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: life support. Unbelievable. But Karina Lane is going to take
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: us through that case and talk to us about how
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: did we get here in this country with the death
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: penalty in America. So stick around. Welcome back. This is
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Under Oath. Today we are pleased to have joining us
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: virtually Karina Barrett Lane, who you may remember from our
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: podcast a few months ago. Karina Barrett-Lane is a professor
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: of law at the University of Richmond School of Law.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: She's one of the nation's leading authorities on the death penalty.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: And we thought it was important that we invite Karina
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: back here today so we could talk about the Pike case,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: which is dominating headlines right now in Tennessee. I was
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: actually in Tennessee for a trial for a totally different
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: case at the time that this was happening last week.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: So thank you for joining us.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: It's good to see you, Karina.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: So nice to be here. It's nice to see you again,
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Michael and Melissa.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Let's just jump into it, Karina. I would love to
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: know if you could tell us a little bit about
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: this case, give us a brief overview of the background,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: maybe people who missed the headlines last week.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: She was supposed to be executed by the state of
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: Tennessee last week. They tried multiple times to insert an IV.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: They were able to get the IV, and then they
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: injected two full 5-grams uh injections of pentobarbital and she
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: didn't die and um you know she's still right now
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: she's still in the hospital on life support apparently she's still.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Unconscious and so how this sort of how this sort
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of functions just so people can get sort of like
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: backed up into this is how um this is not
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: uncommon that people have a botched execution in america right
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: this is like a pretty In your research from working
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: on your book, this happens all the time. Maybe not
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: this exact specific pack pattern, but it's pretty common.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: You're so right, Michael. Botched executions really do happen all
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: the time with lethal injection. The botch rate for lethal
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: injection is twice that of other methods. Now, it depends
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: on the year, but typically it's 7% to 8%. All
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: the other methods are around 3%. But in 2022, it
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: was like 35%. One in three of every executions that
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: year was botched. And now we have some executions that
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: have been so botched that the person survives their own execution,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: which was nearly unheard of before lethal injection.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: And what happens to the person who survives? I mean,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: are they surviving and they're back in jail or are
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: they sort of surviving by being kept on life support? Yeah.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Well, we've never had one like in ever to my knowledge. No,
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: I would know. Um, we've never had one where they're
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: being kept on life support where it's, you know, botched
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: and they're in this middle in between space. Um, we
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: have had numerous ones where they've survived their own execution
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: and under current Supreme court precedent, the state can try again.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: So in 2024, the state of Alabama executed two people
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: that it had botched so badly they survived. One of
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: them had been punctured 18 times with a needle, you know,
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: which is just torturous. And then they came back in
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: 2024 and gassed them to death. So You know, oftentimes
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: these are people, this is a geriatric population with really
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: poor health. So a lot of times they die on
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: their own before the state can get around to executing
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: them again.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: And I guess like, why is it that it takes
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: so long for a state to get to an execution
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: with a criminal in most of these Southern states?
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good question, Michael. And I think
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: that's a really important question because the time between death
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: sentence and execution is 21 years now. That's the national average.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: That's not just Southern states. And I do hear a
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: lot of people saying, well, just hurry up. Krista Pike,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: she was on death row for 31 years. It was
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: 31 years ago. So she's above the national average. But
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I do hear people say, hurry up. And I don't know.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, you tell me what you all think. But
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: for me, at least- I look at this and we
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: now are in the 50th year of the modern era
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: of the death penalty, which started in 1976. We've had
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: 1,670 executions. And in that time, we've also had 203
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: people exonerated from death row. So when you put those
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: two things together, for every 8.5 people that we've executed,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: there's one that the state is like, oh, I'm so sorry.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: We got that one totally wrong.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: And then even aside from actual innocence and exonerations, anywhere
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: from 50% to 70%. of all death sentences are overturned
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: on appeal. Um, and the top two reasons are grossly
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: ineffective assistance of counsel and prosecutorial misconduct. So, you know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: those are not misplaced paper clips. Those are serious constitutional
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: errors that go to the truth-seeking function of trial. So
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, I'm with Justice Breyer who once said,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: he wrote, you can have a fast death penalty or
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: a fair death penalty, but you cannot have both.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Interesting. So the way it's sort of structured now, the
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: duration that it takes from conviction to the actual execution
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: almost serves the defendant, in many instances, right? Because during
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: that time, these are overturned, these are appealed, these are,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: you know, there's an exoneration. It seems like a significant
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: number of exonerations.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, it does, but it also doesn't, right? So
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: like somebody who has been on death row, like Karina said,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: for 21 years, and then something happens and they're able to,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: that person being able to be exonerated, that's great. You've
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: been found that you didn't do what you were accused
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: of doing, but you spent all this time in prison.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Waiting.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: And not just in prison and serving your sentence, but
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: in prison and waiting, anticipating when the day comes where
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: someone's going to, the state is going to kill you basically, right? Yeah.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: We talked about this last time you were here, just
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: sort of like the concept of justice when it comes
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: to a death sentence, right? Like what is that transaction, right?
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: We're saying this person committed this crime, we're going to
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: execute them, and that's going to hopefully give some sort
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: of justice to the victim, to the family. I found
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: that when I was preparing for this interview, when this
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: was in the headlines last week, In conversations I was
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: having with people in my life was this knee-jerk response
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: that I was hearing from people when I brought up
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: death sentence and this person, Krista, Krista Pike. As I
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: was talking to people about this case, the crimes kept
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: coming up. Everybody wanted to talk about what the crimes were.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Everybody wanted to talk about, well, this happened to this person,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: this botched execution. Everyone was pointing to the crime.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Well, as if the botched execution is what you deserve.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: That's the punishment worthy of the crime, right? And it
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: just really got me thinking about when we start to
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: whittle away at the amendments, at the Eighth Amendment, and say, oh, well,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: it only applies to people who don't commit heinous crimes.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Or it only applies to, right? Like we start to
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: kind of chip away at the foundation of that. amendment
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: and what it means and how it is applied in
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: the constitution.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And, you know, one thing that I hear from
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Capitol defenders is that are talking, you know, litigating these
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: execution method cases is my client was sentenced to death.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: He was not science sentenced to torture.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Right. Yes.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: You know, and it's like, right. And here's an interesting
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: thing about, that crime. So it's a terrible crime. We
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: should just, we should talk about that. It was a
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: terrible crime.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: What was the conviction?
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was capital murder, but she was with
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: her boyfriend and they lured this, you know, friend or, or, or,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: you know, a classmate into the woods. They bludgeoned her
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: to death. They even took a little piece of her,
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: of her skull. And then, um, a pentagram of was
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: carved into the body. And so it really fed into
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: this sort of satanic panic that was going on in
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: the 80s and 90s at the time. And so, yes, terrible.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: But also, you look at it, she was 18 years old.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: And when you look at the little clip of her
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: when she's sentenced to death, she's got acne all over
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: her chin. She's crying for her mom. She was born
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: with fetal alcohol syndrome. She had suffered horrendous, horrendous sexual
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: abuse all throughout her childhood. And then she was also
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: violently raped as a teenager. She, you know, she goes
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: to trial, the boyfriend, right? who allegedly is the one
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: that carved the pentagram, he gets life with the possibility
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: of parole. So he could walk, you know, and yet,
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: you know, here we are. And I think one of
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: the things that I had heard from her, and this
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: wasn't her last statement. This is when the death warrant
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: came down. So she had a date and she said,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to quote a couple lines. She said,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: I was a mentally ill 18 year old kid. It
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: took me numerous years to even realize the gravity of
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: what I'd done and even more to accept how many
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: lives I affected. I took the life of someone's child, sister, friend.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: It sickens me now to think I had the ability
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: to commit such a crime. And I think what's interesting
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: is the death penalty, it requires us to freeze someone
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: in a moment in time.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Like you are this person, your wholesome, everything before, everything
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: after is in this one, you know, heinous act. And
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: you look at her and I'm like, okay, who are
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: we executing?
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: You're going to tell me that is a monster. That
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: is someone who's amoral, that person. Right. Because she's not
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: the same person. And that's what's hard, I think.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think that because this case has gotten
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: so much attention and it's not the first botched case,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: do you have a sense that there's some kind of
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: a change coming that maybe we as a society, we
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: are going to look at the death penalty in a
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: different way? That maybe they'll say, you know what, this
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: is not who we want to be anymore. You know
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: what I mean? And so, like you said, that attorney
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that you had spoken to had said to you that
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: their client was sentenced to death, not sentenced to torture.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: So is that something that you think is going to
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: have an impact on how we move forward?
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: Melissa, I love your optimism.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: I know, isn't it nice?
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: I love the hope, even in the question. And, you know,
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I mean, I don't know. If there's any
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: good that will come of this, I think... I hope
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: it will spur conversations not only about how we kill,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: but about whether we should be killing. And I said this,
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: I think, the last time I was on your show,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: but I think lethal injection really just does one thing well. Like,
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: it is so deeply problematic. This death row population is
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: a geriatric population with histories of poor health. IV drug use, terrible,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: notoriously weak veins. She's an example of that, but it
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: could happen to any state in any person. They can't
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: get the medical doctors. They can't get the drugs. It's just,
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: it's so expensive. It's all under the table. So why
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: are they doing it? And I think lethal injection just
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: does one thing well, and that is it really hides
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: the what an execution is. You know, it hides the
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: violence inherent in taking someone's life. And I just, I
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: was thinking about this statement I had read, the heart
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: stops reluctantly. And, you know, what they were talking about
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: is before the heart is ready to stop beating on
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: its own, it takes physical force. It takes violence to
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: stop the heart from beating.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: So it could be a car accident or homicide or
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: an execution, but it's going to take physical force. It's
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: going to take violence. And the thing that lethal injection
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: has been doing for the last 45 years is allowing
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: us to deny that, to tell ourselves, These people are
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: just drifting off to forever sleep. It's like putting down
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: a beloved pet. And the truth is, it's nothing like that.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: And they've used a paralytic and they've done this and
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: that to make us think that. But then you have
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: these instances where it's like, oh, wait a minute. This
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: is actually a really violent act.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: And we're sort of covering it up with a medical
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: procedure and sort of like glossing over it. And then
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: I also think that Even just to get there, the
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: notion that, what would it be? I'm bad at math,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: but you said there were 1,600.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there were 1,670. You got to keep an eye
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: on Florida. They're executing people left and right. But 1,670
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: and then 203. So I just rounded up to 1,700
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: and rounded down to 200 and got 8.5. That's a
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: really high exoneration rate. It's terrible.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: It's a terrible number. And if we're looking at trials,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: we're executing someone now. The trial took place 30 years ago.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: How were we looking at evidence back then?
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: How were we looking at biased juries back then? What
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: was the DNA samples like in the 80s? You know
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: what I mean? I think- it gets so concerning and
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: the further back you look and then the evidence is
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: older and older and older. For me, people are always
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: asking me, how could you possibly defend a criminal? How
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: could you possibly defend someone who did something wrong? I'm like,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: where's the accountability? We've got to make sure that if
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: anyone's going away for anything, that accountability was followed and
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: that they're there because that's exactly what happened and they're
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: serving the time for that crime, not because we accidentally
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: put them there through some oversight. Right.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: I love, Michael, it's such a defense lawyer thing, but
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: I love that that is your perspective because I was
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: talking to someone else and they said, well, what if
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: we could get it right? What if we didn't have
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: to worry about that? What if we were sure? And
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: I said to him, they're always sure. I feel that
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: the juries, I don't think any jury is going into
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: this going like, oh yeah, let's give him death. And
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: so you think of the Texas cases and it's like, no,
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: now they're dealing with shaken baby syndrome. But the people
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: that got death, on that evidence, you know, you had
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: experts saying, no, I'm sure you could never get this
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: brain damage, you know, just by somebody falling down the stairs,
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: you had to have done something. Now they're like, oops,
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: sorry about that.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: We were wrong.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: Same thing with fire, you know, arson evidence, same thing
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: with bite mark evidence, you know, and so same thing
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: with eyewitness testimony, false confessions, confessions, no one would ever,
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: confess to a murder unless they did it. Why would
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: they do that? And yet, we have DNA exoneration.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: It happens often. Yeah.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: So, this execution was clearly botched. She's now on life support.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: What happens now? Like, where does this go from here?
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: Boy, I think we're all holding our breath on that one. So,
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: what we know is that if she recovers, the state
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: can try again.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: So, like, Now, I will say, just because there was
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: a botched execution does not stop the state from trying again.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: The state can try again. But there's also a competency
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: requirement to executions. So the state has to show that
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: she is aware of the state trying to kill her
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: and the reason. She doesn't have to remember the crime.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Why is there a competency requirement?
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, it goes to the basic punishment purposes of
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: the death penalty.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: They want people to know that.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Do you know what you did?
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: This is why. But, you know, there was a case
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: several years ago and the man had organic brain damage
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: and it was, you know, something that you could see. Like,
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: there was no chance. He was malingering. He didn't remember.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: He couldn't say his ABCs. And the court was like, yeah,
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: you know, I think, you know, but as long as
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: the state tells him we're We're killing you for this.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: And as long as he understands it in that moment,
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: I think we're good, you know? And so for her,
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: even though a botched execution wouldn't necessarily stop the state
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: from trying again, if she's, you know, got permanent brain
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: damage or she's, you know, on life support or something
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: like that, she's not competent to be executed. So they can't,
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: you know, for that reason, they can't try again.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Wow. Wow.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: So it's so heavy. Sorry.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: It just feels so heavy.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Tennessee.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, Tennessee.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, Tennessee. CJ hit us with Tennessee's state slogan. Tennessee
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: done this before. They're out here botching executions. They're known
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: for it.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: I had this conversation with some friends over the weekend
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: about this particular case. And the amount of people who
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: don't know how this happens is astounding. And again, and
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: the only reason why I know is because of the
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: conversation that we had. And so here I am educating
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: other people about this thing. And I think that people
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: do think you just kind of like drift off to
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: sleep and this is completely nonviolent. And that's why I
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: was wondering- Because of this case, the people who've been
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: paying attention now know that it is not quiet or gentle,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: that it can be very violent. And that's why I
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: was wondering, is there any sort of chatter about how
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: we should go forward? This is not about setting somebody
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: like Krista Pike free. There's a difference. There's a difference
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: between making sure that she serves out her life sentence
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: versus being executed or not really executed. Because now she's
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: in this in-between place. I mean, she's alive, but barely, right?
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Something is keeping her alive. I don't know.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: I really like that you circled back to this, Melissa,
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: because I think right now states, executing states around the
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: country are looking at her situation and saying, that could
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: happen to us.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: Easy peasy. That could totally happen to us. All of these,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: you know, people have notoriously weak veins. So like what
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: happened to her could happen to all of, you know, anyone.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: And I wonder if they're thinking it's 31 years later.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: Let's think about what we've done. This poor victim's mother
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: has been waiting 31 years. And of course she's bitter. And,
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: you know, of course she's livid. And who's talking about
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: the victim? Everyone now is talking about Krista.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: And it's like, I wonder if states are thinking to themselves.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: I kind of hope they are. But again, Melissa, I
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: don't know that I have your optimistic spirit. But I
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: wonder if states are thinking, gosh, we can take life
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: without asking some poor prison guard to kill somebody.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: We can take life. It's called life without parole. They're
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: never getting out. And by the way, you will save
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: millions and you'll let that poor victim family go. Because
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: here's the thing.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: They're stuck in limbo. They don't get the closure.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Right. I feel like we, if we were really being honest,
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: you know, with the, with the surviving, you know, family
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: members of the, of these homicide victims, we would say
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: to them, you just lost the most important person in
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: your life. And now to vindicate that life, we're going
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: to take a couple decades of your life. Yes. And
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: you will not move on. You're going to be there
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: with all the appeals, all of the clemency hearings. You're
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: going to know when they go to the infirmary, you're
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: going to be stuck in this holding pattern and you.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Will get there.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: And it's just like, why wouldn't you just let them,
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: you know, let those people go take the money that
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: you'd saved. I mean, put it in a victim compensation fund,
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: put it into solving cold cases, which are now at
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: an all-time high. Like, I just, I wonder if they're
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: having that conversation.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: They're not.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, so you're not as optimistic. No, not at all.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: You know what it is? I'm not actually optimistic. I
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: wish that I was, which is why I ask questions
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: like that, right? Because show me that people are thinking.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Show me that people are considering that, having those conversations.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Like you just said, hey, you know what? Because that
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: makes me feel like people care about justice, actual justice.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Because like you said, now Colleen Slemmer's family Colleen has
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: gotten forgotten.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Right. We're all talking about Krista.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: We're talking about Krista.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: And so had they just said, you know what, we're
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: going to put Krista in prison forever, then her family
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: would have been able to say, you know what, this
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: person is, this is the best that we could do.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: They're going to be in prison forever. And that's the
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: end of it. And now we can try and move
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: on from this horrible loss that we've suffered. Right.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: That's the thing. Like all the research shows closure comes
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: from closure. Like closure comes when.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: The case is done.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: And that's not the death penalty. Here's another thing that
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about because I was recently in Oklahoma.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: And I was thinking, you know, who do we talk
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: about when we're talking about the Oklahoma City bombing? Who
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: do we talk about? We talk about Timothy McVeigh, right?
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: We talk about the guy we executed. But do you
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: know he had a co-defendant? He had a co-defendant. He
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: got life. Do you even know his name?
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: We don't.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Terry Nichols, you know?
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: And it's just like, if you want to throw someone
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: into the trash bin of history and never talk about
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: them again, it's that guy that got the life sentence.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Everyone's forgotten about him. He's just dying in a cell.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you brought it up earlier. Krista's boyfriend
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: at the time was a co-defendant here, right? I mean,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: he had his own trial. He got life in prison.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: It sounds like some of.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: With parole.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Right. And some of the conviction was maybe put upon her.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Like there was a deal struck with the prosecutor. Like
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: some of the maiming of the body was potentially... He
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: testified against her maybe? I don't know. But the notion
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: that she got the death penalty and he got life
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: with parole for the same exact crime.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Right. Oh, yeah.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: Just illustrates... how you can ask 12 jurors and get
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: 13 opinions about any given case.
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: You know, the other thing about Krista Pike's case, speaking
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: from a lawyer's point of view, is all of the
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: abuse that she had been through, all of that stuff,
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: Her lawyer at the time, like the jury didn't see
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: any of that. And so she had a claim of
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: ineffective assistance of counsel. And the Sixth Circuit looked at
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: it and said, oh, geez, like this is a constitutional violation.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: This woman may get a new trial. We're just going
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: to put the execution on hold until we can actually
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: get a full hearing on whether or not we can
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: even kill her.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: And this United States Supreme Court lifts the stay on
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: the shadow docket. No briefing. No, no opinion.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: They just said go forward.
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: They just said go for it.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: And that was recent. That was the current Supreme Court.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: That's our pro-life court.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: So, you know, they're pro-life until you're born.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. I call that pro-birth.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: After that, yes, exactly. Yeah, that's pro-birth. Yeah. Wow. You're
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: blowing my mind.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and I hope that you're blowing the minds.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Of everybody who hears us. Yeah, a lot of people.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, your book is so.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: It's, again, because so many people really don't understand. They're
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: thinking about vengeance and justice, but this is It's not.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: It's nuanced, right? Just look at fetal alcohol syndrome alone.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: What we knew about it, what we thought about it
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: as society in the 80s versus today, I mean, the
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: studies on it alone, the notion, she would have been
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: tried probably as an incompetent person with a severe disability
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: today versus in the 80s.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Or at least it would have been introduced. Here's what
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: you need to know about Krista. This is how she
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: grew up. This is what happened to her. She's been
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: fighting this uphill battle her entire life because of X, Y,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: and Z. But the jury never heard any of those things.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: So she was just this monster.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: Who did this thing.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: She was just this monster who did this thing.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Did the boyfriend testify and say... It was all her idea, right? Like,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: we don't know.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: We don't even know. We don't even know.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Do you cover similar cases to this in your book?
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness. I mean, you know, the book, I
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: don't make an argument in the book at all. What
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: I do is relentlessly document what the state is doing
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: in our name. And so it's story after story after
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: story after story. that are just like this. And I
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: think what people should know is this is inherent in
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: the project of lethal injection. You're going to have veins
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: that you can't get into and have to puncture 18 times.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: You're going to have veins that collapse. And so just
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: like in her case, the drugs are going into the
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: surrounding tissue and then you've got chemical burns and I mean,
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: this is inherent in this. You know, what you were
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: saying about, you know, what the jury heard and didn't hear,
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: it's important to realize that at trial, it's literally life
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: or death. It is true life, life without parole. You're
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: never getting out or death. And so that's the stakes
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: on the table. And so what a jury is looking
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: at is, is this person such a monster? So bad.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: That they are the worst of the worst. And when
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: you have someone who's been sexually abused from the start,
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: who didn't have a chance from the start, like that's
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: when you look and say, they should, you know, as
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: Melissa said, they're never getting out. I'm not saying let
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: them out. Right. What I am saying is, is that
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: person the worst of the worst? That's your worst of
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: the worst? The one that didn't have a chance from
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: the start?
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Right. And is that how it's being framed to the jury?
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: Probably not.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for joining us. I so
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: appreciate you coming on at the last minute and talking
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: about this case. I saw it in the headlines and
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: I thought we had to have Karina on. So thank
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: you for joining us.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: It's good to see you and great to talk to
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: you again. Thank you so much.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: You all are amazing.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: This is Tales from the DMs. We're going to read
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: all your wicked and wild and crazy comments from the internet.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: We're going to get into it. We're going to read
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: your reviews. Some of y'all need to put the fucking
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: pen down.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Friends, friends. What do I always say? While Michael is
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: a lawyer, he's not your lawyer. So get your own.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: We had a lot of really fun feedback from our
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: chat with Clay Aiken. And I will tell you that
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: I walked away being very charmed. He was so funny.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: He was so funny and so real. And it just was,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: you know, we end up with.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: People on our show sometimes because I got drunk and
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: DM to them from the back of a Uber at
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: four in the morning. And I think Clay might've been
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: one of those folks. And then I wake up and
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: sometimes they respond.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: And then they're like, yeah, CJ booked them. Let's do it. So, uh,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: someone said, I didn't realize Clay was this funny. I
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: love it. The three of you together is amazing. Thank you. Uh,
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: I've watched many interviews of Clay. This has been one
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: of his funniest by far. So glad you had him on.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Not forgetting, he is an awesome singer too. Really, we
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: didn't ask him to sing.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Is he allowed to sing?
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: I guess it's his song. Next time we have him on.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know if people are allowed to sing on
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: our show. CJ, are people allowed to sing their songs
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: on our show?
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: No, it's probably owned by some record label, but he
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: could have sung like Happy Birthday.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, right.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Don't get me started on Happy Birthday.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: What's wrong with Happy Birthday?
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Do we have time for this story? Well,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell the Happy Birthday song story next
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: episode because it's a whole thing. It was a whole nightmare. Anyway,
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of people love the bell. Why? Get my
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: fucking agent on the phone now. Sophie has a question
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: about Nolan Wells. Since there's a grand jury declined to
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: bring charges, any next step for the family to seek justice?
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Can they bring it in front of a grand jury again?
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: So grand juries, you can go back if you have
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: no evidence. There's no double jeopardy in grand juries. So
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: it is super sus to me that the grand jury
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: went forward without all of the information. I think it's–
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: my perspective on that was that– Thank you so much.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of political influence there. So that was
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: sort of my POV watching that grand jury go down.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: I think there probably will be some additional grand jury scrutiny.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: But so it ain't over. Right. Yeah. What were you
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: laughing at?
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Somebody. Sorry. I was just reading somebody. Her name is Krista.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: She sent us a really long message and I was
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: reading it.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: But.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: I read the part where she says, P.S. On your
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: May 11th episode, Transracialism, we have questions still. Melissa talked
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: about how upset she gets when people spell her name
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: wrong and said it's really her parents' fault. I don't
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: remember saying that, but okay. I'm here to confirm that
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: it is, in fact, 100% her parents' fault. I'm dead.
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: I love that.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: I love that so much. Just catching straight.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: It's okay.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Malbranch family.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: I know your memory is probably terrible. It is. I
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: don't remember you. I met you at the My Favorite
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: Murder Brooklyn show. Of course I remember. Yeah, I remember
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: that show. I couldn't speak.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Uh-oh.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: See a doctor. You saw the excitement and asked if
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: I'd like to take a picture, which I accepted. I
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: do that sometimes. I feel like such an egomaniac when
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: I'm like, do you want a photo with me? Because
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: people sometimes freeze up. And I don't think it's because
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I'm famous. I think it's because I'm enormous. I'm huge.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: And so people, and then they're like, all right, Michael,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like six, five.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: Are you?
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: Six, five.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: Get the bell. Where's my bell?
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: We lost our bells.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: What's on your phone? Okay.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: So, this I think is funny. Do you remember a
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: couple of months ago that somebody said they like our
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: show a lot, but they get annoyed at me because
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: I uh-huh and mm-hmm all the time? Do you remember that? Okay.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Can I tell you?
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: What?
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Melissa came into the studio that day. She was so mad.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: I wasn't mad.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: You were mad.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: I wasn't mad. No, no, no. I was not mad.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: I was just like, oh, that's annoying.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: She was like, she.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: That's annoying.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: And then you were acting weird. So I'd say something
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: and she'd be crickets. Say nothing. I would say anything.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: The lights are on. No one's home.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: So this person, Yay Gadget, did an update. No, I
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: love it. They re-reviewed the review. Update. Melissa heard my
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: feedback and those I hear you, I'm following along sounds
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: are much better.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Big improvisation.
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: Yes. That is sick.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: That is sick. Not the people pleaser in you. Yes.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Because honestly, I did not know that about myself until
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: I sort of really listened back. And I was like,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: I do do that. And that is very annoying. I
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: should stop. So thank you, Yay Gadget.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: And if you have any complaints about anything I say
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: or any of my idiosyncrasies, you can keep them to yourself.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: Keep them coming. I like them.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: Keep them coming. Melissa likes them. She'll eat that up.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: Unless you're telling her to get a dog, in which
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: case she's going to punch you.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: There is a really cute dog.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Get the fucking dog.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: I can't.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: Arthur Weasley does not like other animals.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: I'll get over it. No. What do you mean?
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Arthur Weasley does not like other animals.
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: I guess he's got three legs. He's already got enough
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: going on.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: He does. I mean, that was the whole thing. He
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: got two broken ankles. When he got adopted, they were like,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: do you have any animals in your home?
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: And I was like, no.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: And they were like, he doesn't really like other animals.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: And I was like, okay. So I can't get a dog.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for watching this episode. We'll see you
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: next week.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: Bye.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: This has been an Exactly Right production recorded at iHeart Studios,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: hosted by me, Michael Foote.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: And me, Melissa Malbranch. Our producer is CJ Ferroni.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: This episode is edited by Mark Schroeder.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: is Patrick Kottner.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Tom Breifogel with artwork
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: from Charlotte Delarue and Vanessa Lilac, with photography by Brad Obono.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Department or on TikTok at Michael Foote.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Malbranch.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: Got legal questions? Reach out at briefrecess at exactlyrightmedia.com. Listen
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: to Brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we're a
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: podcast with video. Search for Brief Recess on YouTube.