Latest / Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface / Kaleidoscope PBTS: E8 Creativity | Consent | Connection

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Kaleidoscope PBTS: E8 Creativity | Consent | Connection · Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface

• 0:00
  It's back. Little unplug plug -in works. Yeah.
• 0:04
  Okay. That should be fine. How would you define
• 0:06
  yourself, Jess? Um... We haven't started yet.
• 0:09
  How would I define myself? Yeah. I can't just
• 0:12
  go with the umbrella term. Fucked up. Fucked
• 0:14
  up. Okay. Um... Creative. Over -thinker. Um...
• 0:21
  Lost. Create. Lost? Yeah. Why? Thank you. The
• 0:28
  way I'm going to introduce you is... I'm going
• 0:33
  to go through the spiel that we do for, like,
• 0:38
  Welcome to Kaleidoscope. There's going to be
• 0:40
  a second where the thing will play, like the
• 0:44
  intro I'll edit it in. And then after that, I'm
• 0:49
  going to introduce you. And then Luigi is going
• 0:52
  to introduce himself. And then you can introduce
• 0:54
  yourself. I'm going to say that you are a poet,
• 0:59
  a teacher. Anything else? Poet, teacher, performer.
• 1:06
  Socials? Um, yeah, aimer, underscore, moon, um,
• 1:11
  underscore, musing. Has that changed? No. Author?
• 1:16
  Oh yeah, right in the dark. Yeah. Really? That's
• 1:20
  cool. Poetry book. She gave me one and then I
• 1:23
  immediately lost it. I meant to bring another
• 1:24
  one, but I completely forgot. Shame. I've written
• 1:26
  another one for you. I've written a novel as
• 1:29
  well, just speaking with publishers. Really?
• 1:32
  Cool. Wasted my life. I'm going to, I'm going
• 1:41
  to kick it off. It's completely unscripted. It's
• 1:43
  like a nonchalant, almost irrelevant conversation.
• 1:47
  Ten, we're really drunk. Ten, we're really, it's
• 1:49
  a pity we don't have alcohol. We can, we can
• 1:51
  order wine. If you - Don't do it. You can't.
• 1:57
  Let's, how am I gonna start? Tough questions.
• 2:01
  Honest answers. Oh, the messy truth. your perspectives.
• 2:10
  Let's begin. Welcome to Kaleidoscope. Hi, I am
• 2:20
  RubyRaelio. I'm what happens, well, I'm the cyberpunk
• 2:26
  NPC we all wish was in the game but never downloaded.
• 2:32
  This is Kaleidoscope. where we explore the art
• 2:37
  of becoming through performance, writing, rhyming
• 2:43
  and teaching. Welcome to Kaleidoscope! Yay! We're
• 2:49
  joined today by, as always, the co -host, Luigi.
• 2:53
  I'm Luigi and I don't understand long sleeve
• 2:57
  shirts with shorts. And my dear friend, Jessica.
• 3:03
  Hi. I am just trying to make sense of the world
• 3:07
  through writing and creativity. Beautiful. Jessica,
• 3:10
  welcome to the podcast. I am honored to have
• 3:13
  you here in Suzhou and to be inside your hotel
• 3:19
  room, even though it's quite gothic. You say
• 3:23
  that like it's a bad thing. No, it's quite fitting.
• 3:25
  It's got a good vibe. It's quite fitting. Are
• 3:27
  we going for like dark? I like dark today. Yeah.
• 3:30
  Fine. Wait, wait, let me be more smoldering.
• 3:35
  When we do this podcast, we tend to share a perspective
• 3:40
  or ask a question and or just state an opinion
• 3:45
  and the rest of us kind of riff off of that.
• 3:49
  Do you have a perspective, opinion or something
• 3:52
  that you would like to share? I was hoping that
• 3:53
  we could talk about the function of creativity
• 3:56
  in the scope of mental health. That's a good
• 4:00
  one. I don't know. I thought we were going to
• 4:03
  talk about something else. That's better. Let's
• 4:05
  go with that. This is good. OK. What do you think?
• 4:10
  How do the two connect, mental health and creativity?
• 4:13
  I think for me, like, creativity is a lifeline.
• 4:16
  Like, the act of being able to create something
• 4:21
  even in a place that isn't necessarily a light
• 4:25
  place. So using the dark to create something
• 4:28
  beautiful, transmute it into something that could
• 4:30
  connect with others. I think you're right. And
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  it makes me think very quickly. It very quickly
• 4:37
  made me connect to a place where there is a lack
• 4:41
  of creativity. And I think that the two in some
• 4:44
  way are linked. Because when you're in a dark
• 4:47
  place, it means that you're inherently sensitive
• 4:50
  to your environment. Right. And there's a group
• 4:53
  of people that lack creativity. but they steal
• 4:57
  it from others. They steal art. You expand on
• 5:01
  that. Fascist Nazis. What do you mean? They take
• 5:06
  creativity. Fascist Nazis. Yeah. I need you to
• 5:10
  elaborate. It's kind of vague. I think AI, but
• 5:12
  you know, whatever. I thought that's where we
• 5:14
  were going with that. Okay. Maybe eventually.
• 5:16
  No, I want to focus on this fascist Nazi thing.
• 5:21
  My opinions about AI are changing. Yeah. my opinions
• 5:26
  on... So if you look at American culture as a
• 5:33
  cross -section, creativity, art and culture within
• 5:38
  American society, and I think in many ways through
• 5:41
  all of time, comes from the bottom rungs of society.
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  And if you like pizza, cheese fondue, fashion,
• 5:54
  music... Okay. Like, innovative art comes from
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  the bottom rungs of society where people are
• 6:01
  oppressed, denied, and obstructed in the way
• 6:06
  that they can function. And I think the moment
• 6:08
  that you start, like anybody who starts to try
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  and raise themselves above society through forceful
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  means, like fascist Nazis, like I don't think,
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  I'm sure that they were princes and princesses
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  and kings and queens. and were born into that
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  and kind of expressed through that. But they
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  always tend to, like if you watch shows or read
• 6:30
  history, they always tend to go down in society
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  to get that. So it sounds like you're talking
• 6:35
  about like appropriation. Yes, they take art.
• 6:38
  They steal it. The Nazis steal art. Nazis steal
• 6:41
  art. They steal creative... I mean, historically,
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  Nazis stole some art. Yeah. But did they steal
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  like an aesthetic and produced it? I do think
• 6:52
  so. Like, okay, right now. There's a big thing
• 6:55
  about the new Superman movie. Okay. Film me in.
• 6:59
  Film me in on the latest tea. It's coming in
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  woke, okay? Is it? And the director has said
• 7:09
  that Superman is about... Superman is an illegal
• 7:12
  immigrant. Is that part of the plot in the movie?
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  I feel like that is. I don't know why. That sounds
• 7:17
  so familiar. That's canonically what Superman
• 7:20
  is. Yes, he's an alien. Yeah, you can make those...
• 7:23
  I don't think the creator of Superman thought,
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  oh, this is a metaphor for immigration. I think
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  that he did. I think that he did. I think there
• 7:32
  was a little thing online. I think he needed
• 7:36
  a premise for a superhero to jump over buildings.
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  And he used an illegal immigrant to do it. Because
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  it's built on the premise of what America is.
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  America was built on illegal immigrants. It's
• 7:49
  built on immigration, sure. Illegally? They didn't
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  come in for friendly attention. Not all of them.
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  I mean, historically, you know, there were people
• 7:59
  they wanted, or there were people America wanted
• 8:02
  to immigrate, sure. But okay, I'll go with it.
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  Okay, tell me more about the Superman movie.
• 8:09
  And now you've got characters like Ben Shapiro.
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  Is he in the Superman movie? No, no, no, no.
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  He's not a character in the movie. He's a...
• 8:17
  character within the societal mindset. And he
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  is saying that it's ridiculous. Superman is American
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  at its core, which is fine. The movie is American.
• 8:31
  Yeah. But Superman as a character is not and
• 8:35
  never was and never will be. Otherwise, it's
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  not Superman. Hmm. You mean he's not American
• 8:39
  because he's an alien. But Ben Shapiro is making
• 8:43
  the opposite statement. Well, I would say to
• 8:46
  Ben Shapiro actually isn't Superman Canadian
• 8:48
  in origin, but more importantly, I think a Canadian
• 8:53
  created Superman. I can fact check in a second,
• 8:57
  but I think Superman is American. He came, okay,
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  let's say the world Superman exists in is America,
• 9:08
  a kind of America, right? A fictional America,
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  but he landed in a spaceship. He did not understand.
• 9:13
  He was an orphan, he crashed, whatever, right?
• 9:15
  And then some parents, a couple found him and
• 9:17
  they raised him. So would that not mean he is
• 9:20
  American? Does the Poisoning Man have all those
• 9:22
  good values? He's an immigrant. He is, sure,
• 9:25
  he's an adopted little orphan baby, but American
• 9:31
  nonetheless. Not according to what's happening
• 9:33
  in America right now. Okay, so we need to really
• 9:36
  define... The flashpoint right now is Donald
• 9:40
  Trump's... deportations. That's what the argument
• 9:43
  is about. And the fact that the director has
• 9:45
  said that Superman, his movie, is a story about
• 9:50
  empathy, understanding, and immigration. Oh,
• 9:53
  so the director explicitly stated that. He made
• 9:57
  it. We'll see how many people watch the Superman
• 9:59
  movie. People will still flock to it. Yeah, of
• 10:02
  course. It's just pumping. I mean, I'll watch
• 10:06
  it until I see the dog, which I think is silly.
• 10:09
  I saw that part in the preview. Superdog? Took
• 10:11
  me out of it. Yeah. I haven't even seen it. I
• 10:14
  have zero interest in DC movies. Why do you think
• 10:17
  that is? Quick aside, why? Just because they're
• 10:20
  not as cool as Marvel? Why? Ask yourself why.
• 10:23
  Yeah, why? Why are they not as cool as Marvel
• 10:26
  movies? Budget? No. Characters? No. DC comics
• 10:30
  are cool. I'm X -Men all the way, so I don't
• 10:32
  know why you're looking at me. Yeah, but why
• 10:34
  is Marvel cooler than DC? Because X -Men is Marvel.
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  I think the characters in Marvel have more of
• 10:39
  a struggle. as human beings exactly yeah they
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  are relatable because yeah that's true all of
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  dc's heroes are superheroes that are trying to
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  be normal but all of marvel's heroes are normal
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  people that are super like things have happened
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  to them exactly so dc characters are kind of
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  like interlopers yeah except for batman we're
• 11:02
  all thinking it except for that which is everybody
• 11:05
  loves for some then iron man is just marvel's
• 11:07
  batman he's significantly Cooler and more light
• 11:11
  -hearted. Yeah, but I would argue people don't
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  really why do they like Iron Man because he's
• 11:17
  because he's cool I don't really like Iron Man
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  because of explicitly because of those reasons.
• 11:22
  It's too perfect. It's too smart and successful
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  He doesn't have a struggle He's dead in like
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  them the the movies Canada movies, but like if
• 11:31
  we talk about the comics, I don't know. There's
• 11:34
  so many iterations Yeah, I'm not as much of a
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  comic book buff as I'd like to admit So, you
• 11:40
  know, I've consumed the movies for the most part.
• 11:42
  Yeah, but anyway. Back to Nazis and fascism.
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  Jess, how do you feel about what we've said so
• 11:52
  far? Superman, Nazis. I'm thinking WTF. I mean,
• 11:56
  I've stared clear of... the new Superman movie
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  and any updates, because I'm just sick of films
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  being regurgitated, if I'm honest. Fair point.
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  But, you know, if a director is using it to make,
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  you know, a really valid and important statement,
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  particularly with the world that we're currently
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  living in, like, that is super cool, because
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  that puts, you know, puts themselves and their
• 12:24
  work on the line. And then we have, you know,
• 12:28
  lots of... Lots of people who have influence
• 12:32
  and who have power either staying silent or making
• 12:35
  some really shitty comments like, you know, it
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  would be good to see someone with power actually
• 12:41
  using it for good. Yeah. As long as it's like
• 12:44
  actually followed through and not just, you know,
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  throw away comments to try and make themselves
• 12:49
  seem appealing. I don't think he's using it to
• 12:51
  make a political statement. Unfortunately, he
• 12:54
  just went on an interview and made those statements.
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  But I don't think the movie is directed in that
• 13:00
  way. Because it would have been completed before
• 13:02
  Donald Trump. You think he just does it to get
• 13:05
  more viewers? To like pacify people? No, I think
• 13:08
  the movie was filmed before Donald Trump had
• 13:11
  his second term and hopefully everybody thought
• 13:13
  that not Donald Trump was going to win. So the
• 13:16
  director's retroactively just making comments
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  to... Well, no, I don't think his comments are
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  invalid. No. I don't think he's making those
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  comments for any other reason other than that
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  they're true, or within the spirit of the Superman
• 13:31
  canon. Hi there. If you're still here, I'm very
• 13:36
  sorry about that long political tangent. It was
• 13:41
  related because I thought that art is being appropriated
• 13:47
  by fascist Nazis and claimed for themselves.
• 13:53
  I don't like that and I don't think anybody should
• 13:55
  like that. I'm vehemently against Nazis. That
• 13:59
  being said, we're about to start with the actual
• 14:01
  question, the relation between mental health
• 14:04
  and creativity. Please don't forget to subscribe,
• 14:10
  comment, share. You can follow us on YouTube
• 14:16
  at Ray Leo or Instagram, firefromheat or TikTok.
• 14:22
  Heat from fire. Enjoy the show. What was the
• 14:25
  original question? Creativity and mental health.
• 14:29
  So I've made a statement. I've gone off way on
• 14:32
  a tangent here about... It's because I'm trying
• 14:36
  to avoid talking about my own mental health.
• 14:40
  I think my mental health is fine. Creativity
• 14:45
  has taken a big part of kaleidoscope, actually.
• 14:48
  so far. The first episode, my perspective was,
• 14:52
  my creativity disappeared during high school.
• 14:56
  Right, you talked about this, yeah. And you know,
• 14:58
  I wouldn't have attributed it to mental health
• 15:02
  then, and I didn't. But I think that, yeah, part
• 15:05
  of it is definitely mental health. I think people
• 15:08
  are naturally creative, and when it becomes an
• 15:12
  issue of mental health, it's because people have
• 15:15
  been taught, you know, it's not worthwhile to
• 15:17
  be creative. for whatever reason and so you don't
• 15:23
  use it and you devalue it and then so in that
• 15:25
  respect you might become you know a little sad
• 15:28
  and a little miserable because you don't want
• 15:31
  to express yourself not everybody obviously it
• 15:33
  doesn't affect everybody but that's what I think
• 15:35
  I think that's kind of two sides of the same
• 15:37
  sort like either mental health being like a negative
• 15:42
  experience a poor mental health and not creating
• 15:46
  or using that as a way to create something else.
• 15:49
  Like I find myself, I'm most inclined to write
• 15:52
  songs, to write poetry when I'm feeling my worst.
• 15:55
  And it's actually some of my best work. A fucking
• 15:58
  horrifying and awful to read in the like heart
• 16:02
  wrenching sense, but some of my favourite pieces.
• 16:06
  Do I wish I could tap into that when I'm like
• 16:09
  not feeling low? Of course. It's, as you say,
• 16:14
  being given the space to freely express that.
• 16:18
  And I do think as well, as well as devaluing
• 16:20
  creativity, there is also still the pervading
• 16:23
  sense that if you are struggling with your mental
• 16:26
  health, you should be quiet and suffer in silence.
• 16:29
  Yes. A lot of people do not want to hear about
• 16:30
  it. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I also agree with
• 16:33
  the idea that, yeah, when you're at your worst,
• 16:37
  you might be the most creative because it does
• 16:40
  act, it is therapeutic and it's cathartic. That's
• 16:42
  the word cathartic, right? Yeah, when I used
• 16:46
  to, when I was young and more emotional than
• 16:50
  I am now, though I'm pretty emotional, who do
• 16:52
  you know? Yeah, I would say the poetry I, because
• 16:55
  I like to write poetry, the poetry I enjoyed
• 16:58
  writing the most, or I thought was the best,
• 16:59
  was because I was, you know, in a... In a state
• 17:04
  of emotion. In a state of, what's the word when
• 17:08
  you're simping hard for girls that you love?
• 17:10
  I don't know. In love. Smitten. Smitten? I was
• 17:15
  beyond that. But like my poetry that I loved
• 17:17
  to write when I was young was the majority. Named.
• 17:21
  Named. Named. Hysterical. No. You never. But
• 17:27
  yeah, like definitely. And I couldn't recreate
• 17:30
  good poems when I was in a good mood, right?
• 17:33
  I agree with that. Maybe it's just, I mean, some
• 17:35
  people I think that's the case. Some people don't
• 17:37
  write poetry for that reason. This is hard for
• 17:39
  me. to think about now because I have always
• 17:43
  written from the time before when I was creative
• 17:48
  the poems that I wrote were from a dark place
• 17:51
  and I leveraged that emotion to write them but
• 17:56
  now I think like my bandwidth was fucked completely
• 18:01
  like my brain was way too busy doing other stuff
• 18:05
  that I you know for like 20 years I did nothing
• 18:08
  and then now I'm doing a shit tonne. But all
• 18:14
  of it is from a place of joy. And I'm looking
• 18:17
  down, I'm drawing from horrible emotions, but
• 18:20
  I'm not writing in a state of a bad emotion.
• 18:24
  So that's interesting to me. Would you argue
• 18:26
  that heightened positive emotion is still just
• 18:30
  like a heightened state? Because obviously mental
• 18:32
  health is like a spectrum. Lots of people...
• 18:35
  You use the phrase to just mean like ill mental
• 18:37
  health, but actually it's the there's both things
• 18:40
  Obviously, there's like a neutral but the positives
• 18:42
  and the negatives so like drawing on that strong
• 18:45
  emotion. Yeah for sure I think that strong emotion,
• 18:49
  but then again like the nameless ship the newest
• 18:52
  poem that I just finished It was it was the first
• 18:56
  poem I've ever said to myself I want to write
• 18:59
  a poem that evokes images of these CSS ship talks
• 19:04
  about Ubuntu and connects like action and existence.
• 19:08
  So those are mental health issues. And if you
• 19:11
  if you apply them personally, but I was like,
• 19:15
  this is what I want to write. I thought about
• 19:17
  it for maybe two days. And then I was like, maybe
• 19:21
  not. And then I sat down and I just wrote it
• 19:24
  in in one sitting, which was like my feelings
• 19:30
  were flat, you know, like I was I wasn't in it's
• 19:33
  obviously not. apathetic to my own poetry, but
• 19:36
  I wasn't feeling a particularly strong emotion.
• 19:41
  Okay, interesting. Do you think there's sometimes
• 19:43
  a difference in how you approach your own personal
• 19:46
  writing in terms of like planning for a specific
• 19:48
  purpose? Because I do similar writing tasks in
• 19:52
  where I'm like, I want to either use these words
• 19:54
  or focus on this topic. And when I write in that
• 19:57
  sense, it's still me, but it reads different.
• 20:00
  It's a different version of my voice. So I'm
• 20:03
  just wondering if that planning process changed
• 20:06
  anything for you? For this particular poem, no,
• 20:10
  because I was just walking around thinking about
• 20:12
  what I want to write and thinking about the story.
• 20:15
  There's another story that actually, when you're
• 20:18
  talking about voice, so there's another poem,
• 20:20
  the previous one that I wrote, that I wrote in
• 20:23
  a similar planning methodology. It's called The
• 20:25
  Book That Would Not Open and The Nameless Ship.
• 20:28
  Those two things are also kind of connected.
• 20:31
  And it's a lot of descriptive emotive imagery.
• 20:35
  And then it brings it into the physical where
• 20:39
  there's actual dialogue or the observer speaks.
• 20:42
  And then it closes with a final resolution. So
• 20:47
  that voice is quite similar for both of those
• 20:49
  poems. And the structure was very similar for
• 20:51
  my planning. But other poems, yeah, you're right.
• 20:53
  They're different. Some I write with, it's called
• 20:59
  the velvet labyrinth. It's a bunch of questions
• 21:03
  that you ask yourself. Like connect a wound with
• 21:08
  an adjective. Fevered constellation is another
• 21:14
  part. That's the title. And then you go through
• 21:16
  like a very structured format. You can make it
• 21:20
  elaborate. You can elaborate on each point or
• 21:23
  you can just write a couple for it. Anyway. then
• 21:26
  that's obviously a different voice. And then
• 21:28
  if you think about when I was smitten with someone,
• 21:30
  hard for me to think about because I think that
• 21:33
  the most, the poem that sticks into my mind the
• 21:37
  most, I was interested in the girl because of
• 21:41
  gender envy, not because of anything else. I
• 21:44
  wanted to be her more than I was in love with
• 21:46
  her. But the, okay, the point is I think that,
• 21:50
  and this is something I think is bad about creativity.
• 21:55
  or rather a true a person this is when I doubt
• 21:58
  a person's creativity maybe I'm wrong is that
• 21:59
  they have to depend on these kinds of like really
• 22:04
  emotional situations that's where the idea of
• 22:07
  the muse comes from right so like imagine having
• 22:10
  to depend on like your agony to turn out work
• 22:13
  and then I think that I think that's why mental
• 22:16
  health and creativity is so connected because
• 22:19
  it is a tool to help you overcome whatever pain
• 22:25
  you're going through. But the problem, or maybe
• 22:28
  the challenge happens for artists, the challenge
• 22:31
  for them is they don't recognize that and then
• 22:34
  so they try to, they wanna commodify their work,
• 22:38
  they wanna be successful, they wanna be an artist.
• 22:40
  And they don't have that agony to write and then
• 22:42
  it's kind of manufactured. Or maybe they start
• 22:44
  with agony and then it fades? There are, I think
• 22:48
  there are people who are creative and they can
• 22:51
  be creative. and they are like so intelligent
• 22:54
  and emotionally, I don't want to say emotionally
• 22:57
  stable, but like, how do you say it? Emotionally
• 23:00
  regulated. There you go, emotionally regulated.
• 23:02
  And they create. And then there's the other kind
• 23:04
  of people who can only create because of like
• 23:07
  that misery and agony. But I think what they
• 23:09
  need to recognize is they're using it as a tool
• 23:11
  to address, you know, some kind of mental challenges,
• 23:16
  problems, whatever. I can say, like, I'm not
• 23:18
  naturally, I don't think I'm naturally creative,
• 23:20
  but when I was, when I used to write in the past,
• 23:23
  it was all because I was angsty. Like a little
• 23:25
  scene kid. Not that I had the hair. Why aren't
• 23:28
  you turning on poetry right now? I think about,
• 23:30
  right? Like, I think, like, wow, I love the poems
• 23:33
  I wrote, but I don't have that kind of motivation
• 23:37
  for it. I don't have those people, because I
• 23:39
  don't have those people that, like, I'm, like,
• 23:41
  obsessed over. For me, the poetry was a tool.
• 23:45
  Little Luigi, it was a tool for Little Luigi.
• 23:47
  It was kind of dishonest when I wrote, you know?
• 23:49
  Because what it really was was me being like,
• 23:51
  I'm gonna write this poem and she's gonna fall
• 23:53
  in love with me. Kind of, kind of, kind of slimy.
• 23:56
  What a slimy thing. Shame. Shame on Little, Little
• 24:00
  Luigi. So bad. That's why I can't write, I think.
• 24:03
  Unless I'm like, maybe someday. Or there could
• 24:07
  be a myriad of reasons why I don't write, you
• 24:08
  know? Creativity could have been bred and shamed
• 24:12
  out of me, you know? In the world, because it's
• 24:15
  not practical, you know? I get my legs up on
• 24:19
  this couch. For me, as an adult, I'm just, you
• 24:21
  know, you go to work, you make money, and that's
• 24:24
  it. I can't reconcile just being creative for
• 24:28
  the sake of being creative. I find it really
• 24:30
  interesting when I speak to non -writers. Yeah.
• 24:33
  Because I have no choice but to write. Yeah.
• 24:37
  A poem starts in my head. And that's it, like.
• 24:39
  Yeah, I understand that. And there's no like,
• 24:43
  I guess like, yeah, I could ignore it. Like I
• 24:45
  could be like, no, not today. But like, I would
• 24:50
  say that almost some of my writing is involuntary,
• 24:52
  like to just need to get it out. Not even like
• 24:55
  all dark ones, some of them, you know. Yes. Yeah,
• 24:58
  yeah. Some of them positive, some of them love,
• 25:00
  some of them, you know, frustrations at the world
• 25:02
  because the world sucks. Sure. But. Yeah, they
• 25:06
  just form. So when I speak to people and they're
• 25:09
  like, oh, I'd have to sit and think about writing
• 25:11
  a poem. And I'm like, man, that's what I would
• 25:13
  do. No, I understand that because there was a
• 25:17
  time in my life when I was just motivated to
• 25:19
  write and I always wrote because I had ideas
• 25:22
  and I wanted to get them out there. And so I
• 25:24
  wrote all the time about just a myriad of topics.
• 25:27
  But now it just doesn't happen. And I'm just,
• 25:30
  I don't know, old and adulty. I just want to...
• 25:33
  make a humble living. I don't know, that kind
• 25:35
  of urge is not there. Maybe I'll get it back
• 25:38
  someday. I'm really old, a lot of poets do that.
• 25:41
  Do you like any other forms of creativity? Like
• 25:44
  do you like draw or like make other things? Okay,
• 25:49
  so like I loved, again, a long, long time ago,
• 25:51
  before this didn't sound bad, before I came to
• 25:54
  China to work, you know, and started my career
• 25:56
  here, you know, cooking, writing, you know, about
• 26:02
  whatever, restaurants, writing just like academic
• 26:06
  think pieces. Like those are my forms of creativity.
• 26:08
  When I was younger, I liked theater and acting
• 26:10
  and I worked in theater and stuff like that.
• 26:13
  But then when I just came here and had to like,
• 26:15
  like I said, be an adult, I guess, you know,
• 26:17
  you just get up, go to work, manage your money,
• 26:19
  et cetera. So those, those like drives are gone
• 26:25
  in some respect. And I think objectively it is
• 26:29
  kind of sad. but I just don't have that drive
• 26:31
  anymore, it's disappeared. But there are some
• 26:33
  things, I think it manifests in different ways,
• 26:35
  so like we're creative in different ways, like
• 26:37
  I like, this sounds lame, like me and my houseplants,
• 26:41
  like I like my houseplants, I like them a lot,
• 26:43
  I like to grow them. We still have, we still
• 26:46
  have like these connections to like be creative
• 26:49
  and create, they might just not be as uh like
• 26:54
  overt maybe let's say. I think that One of your,
• 26:57
  one of the expressions of creativity that I have
• 27:00
  seen from you. Arguing. It's an art form. You
• 27:06
  spent today, you spent like 30 minutes on your
• 27:10
  own volition. More than that, making sure that
• 27:12
  just that one... Was in the right spot. Yeah,
• 27:17
  I do like... That's not neuroticism, that's creativity,
• 27:22
  I think. It's focused on the shot and placement.
• 27:26
  Right, yeah, well that's true. Yeah, that's creativity.
• 27:30
  That's not superficial at all. I think it's kind
• 27:33
  of superficial. Yeah, I agree, that's the kind
• 27:36
  of creativity. I think what you mean is that
• 27:38
  it's not necessarily that it's superficial, but
• 27:39
  it's not like... what society, brands and ties
• 27:43
  in a bow as what creativity is, which is kind
• 27:46
  of part of the problem. Not overtly, yeah, there's
• 27:48
  this kind of, it's weird because that is, that
• 27:51
  what I was doing I think is probably one of the
• 27:54
  most important kinds of creativity that people
• 27:56
  don't pay attention to because it's so, it's
• 27:59
  so pervasive and like natural. It orbits around
• 28:02
  like how, we're such a specular society now because
• 28:06
  of, you know, social media, YouTube, all these
• 28:09
  things are planned. how they set up, how everything's
• 28:12
  staged, but it's in the background and people
• 28:14
  don't really pay attention to it unless it's
• 28:17
  so horrendous, it kind of takes you out of the
• 28:19
  experience, right? And we still have these ideas
• 28:23
  of the creative as being this kind of cliche
• 28:28
  caricature of an artist. That makes sense? Exactly,
• 28:32
  yeah. It's like the more practical creative things
• 28:36
  we think, they're so normalized. we don't pay
• 28:39
  attention to them as being. What about authenticity,
• 28:42
  then? Does it exist within our society right
• 28:46
  now? And the reason I ask this is because, like,
• 28:49
  going back to high school, one of the... In order
• 28:52
  to graduate English, we had to write a confrontational
• 28:59
  speech. And mine was, originality is non -existent.
• 29:04
  Only authenticity remains. And my opinion or
• 29:08
  definition of authenticity was like the authentic
• 29:11
  idea, the root of something. For example, even
• 29:16
  if you look at binoculars, it's just an augmentation
• 29:19
  of sight, right? And sight is the authentic thing
• 29:24
  that you're playing with. And there's nothing
• 29:26
  original that exists anymore. So, but now we
• 29:29
  like from a different perspective of authenticity,
• 29:32
  is there authentic social media? Because I would
• 29:35
  like to think that this is authentic, even though
• 29:39
  there are elements of staging. Okay. I have kind
• 29:42
  of a gripe with the buzzword of authenticity.
• 29:46
  I don't like it. I don't like... When people
• 29:49
  say, like, I'm being authentic, I don't know.
• 29:51
  I'm always skeptical of that. I don't know what
• 29:53
  it is. Authentic right now, I think that's a
• 29:57
  flag moment. Same with people calling themselves
• 30:00
  woke. Woke. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you say you are
• 30:03
  woke, you are not woke. You're performing. It's
• 30:06
  a performance. We have to really define these
• 30:08
  terms though. I don't even think people can define
• 30:11
  what woke is and I don't even want to try and
• 30:13
  give it a definition right now. Okay, I'll do
• 30:15
  it. Okay, go for it. You guys can tell me how
• 30:17
  I do. Woke comes from the 1930s. Black American
• 30:23
  culture. And it was used to identify or it was
• 30:30
  used to identify people who were able to highlight
• 30:34
  and understand the systemic oppressions that
• 30:39
  existed within their society and around their
• 30:42
  culture. Those were work people. And since then,
• 30:45
  it has been appropriated by... I don't want to
• 30:48
  say Democrat because... No. Left people on the
• 30:55
  left? People on the left. To... be a much broader
• 31:00
  sense of outside of only black culture in America,
• 31:03
  like all systems of oppression, all systemic
• 31:08
  snuffings of freedom in a way. And then I think
• 31:13
  that some people on the very far left maybe took
• 31:17
  some elements of being woke a little bit too
• 31:20
  far too quickly. And that's a very touchy thing
• 31:25
  because I'm struggling with that. with my own
• 31:28
  opinion on that right now but then what happened
• 31:31
  is someone on the right with enough influence
• 31:34
  became so offended by this one person standing
• 31:37
  up for their rights and trying to highlight something
• 31:40
  and there was such a disconnect of understanding
• 31:43
  that the right appropriated woke as an insult
• 31:47
  and did what and now we're stuck with with this
• 31:52
  rhetoric that is happening today and you get
• 31:55
  truly woke people I think there's three of them
• 31:58
  sitting in this room. But then you get people
• 32:02
  that are being performative in their statements.
• 32:06
  Right. Sure. And disingenuous. And then you get
• 32:10
  people on the right trying to insult us. Hard
• 32:12
  idea. I'm glad that you at least had like the
• 32:15
  origins correct. Because I was like, oh, please
• 32:17
  don't make me school you on the origins of the
• 32:19
  word and why I'm not OK with it. So kudos. OK.
• 32:23
  Proud of that. You said appropriated. I would
• 32:27
  say from the start it was misappropriated. It's
• 32:31
  a word that was taken by people who it was never
• 32:33
  intended for. And I think that's part of my issue
• 32:36
  with it. I am all for people. Cross -culture
• 32:43
  sharing is fantastic when it's a sharing. But
• 32:46
  time and time again, people who are white, Caucasian,
• 32:51
  however we want to say it, have... taken things
• 32:54
  from people of colour for their own purpose and
• 32:57
  I feel like this is exactly what what the word
• 33:00
  was used for you know taking something that wasn't
• 33:03
  originally ours to be like hey I'm so cool I'm
• 33:06
  so down with the peeps and actually not really
• 33:08
  understanding even the origins the amount of
• 33:10
  people who don't know where the word came from
• 33:12
  what it was originally intended for and I just
• 33:15
  think well how can you possibly embody a word
• 33:18
  if you don't know if you don't know what's come
• 33:20
  before it And I think that's the issue that I
• 33:22
  take with it. So I think you're right in saying
• 33:24
  that there are certain buzzwords that actually
• 33:26
  get my heckles up a little bit as well, because
• 33:28
  I'm a bit like, but what do we even mean by that?
• 33:33
  Hashtag a token word that we can throw in that
• 33:35
  will get ourselves views. Back to the originality
• 33:42
  versus authenticity. I see what you mean in that
• 33:45
  actually. Everything is a replication in some...
• 33:48
  in some way which you know is inevitable when
• 33:52
  the world has existed for this long. I think
• 33:54
  back to music quite a lot when I have discussions
• 33:56
  about originality because there's what like 16
• 33:58
  notes and whenever people are like oh this has
• 34:00
  the same chord progression I can play 24 songs
• 34:03
  that rely on c e g so you know there's there
• 34:06
  are you know certain limitations in that you
• 34:10
  know until we create something new and that is
• 34:13
  an argument of itself do we ever really create
• 34:14
  something new? you know if we think of AI was
• 34:17
  it created or was it just did we discover it
• 34:20
  so you know there's there's so many there's so
• 34:23
  many arguments to say that yes actually nothing
• 34:25
  is in and of itself original I think that the
• 34:29
  kind of part of your authenticity is with being
• 34:33
  original with the material I think that's phrasing
• 34:38
  I feel a bit more comfortable with than like
• 34:40
  authentic okay fair enough I've had this conversation
• 34:47
  with a lot of people and they're synonymous.
• 34:50
  Two words, originality and authenticity. I would
• 34:54
  say the lexicon is quite different because original
• 34:59
  is to do with the origins of something and how
• 35:02
  it was created. Whereas authenticity is more
• 35:06
  about what you've done, who you are. Honesty?
• 35:11
  Yeah, see that's why they're there's such it's
• 35:14
  such a difficult turn can you be original and
• 35:18
  inauthentic oh You create something you still
• 35:21
  be a disingenuous person That thing is it is
• 35:25
  it an authentic thing? This is a very because
• 35:28
  authenticity is around the truth of something
• 35:31
  right like is it is it what it claims to be I
• 35:33
  don't know that's the that's the problem with
• 35:36
  the word is that so many people define it in
• 35:40
  certain ways, in certain contexts. So we could
• 35:42
  very well say, this is what it means in this
• 35:44
  context for us. And... Greatest. But for me,
• 35:49
  I think like it seems like it seems so because
• 35:51
  everyone's trying to define it as something specific.
• 35:56
  And that's why I'm kind of just like, eh. Because
• 35:59
  words have multiple meanings in different contexts,
• 36:01
  so authentic or authenticity is definitely one.
• 36:04
  Trust me, I've had this conversation about the
• 36:07
  meanings of our word quite a lot. Right, but
• 36:10
  usually how we're looking at it is I guess in
• 36:13
  like a kind of academic context, which I just
• 36:15
  can't, I don't think I have the capacity to really
• 36:18
  pin down. I think that words should probably
• 36:21
  somewhat, never mind, I don't want to say that.
• 36:26
  Now I want to know. Scandalous. Maybe words should
• 36:32
  be updated more often with more definitions or
• 36:39
  there should be a progression of definitional
• 36:42
  updates within a dictionary. I think it's to
• 36:45
  do with what someone does with the word, isn't
• 36:47
  it? There's how many people on this board with
• 36:51
  multiple different thoughts, feelings and wonders.
• 36:55
  they're going to, you know, human nature is to
• 36:59
  make sense of things in a way that we can relate
• 37:01
  to. By categorizing, right? And everyone's category
• 37:05
  is going to be different because everyone's lived
• 37:07
  experience is different, their heritage, their
• 37:09
  culture, where they live, where they're coming
• 37:10
  from, where they're going, etc. So to be able
• 37:13
  to find, like, for subjective terms, there isn't
• 37:16
  going to be like a black and white, this is what
• 37:18
  it is, because everyone's experience is so different.
• 37:21
  Yeah. And anything outside of objective science
• 37:24
  is subjective. And even objective science is
• 37:29
  logical. Mass. Well done, mass. That's true.
• 37:36
  Yeah, so I think it's just, you know, the word.
• 37:40
  Morality, if you're a Christian. Joking. Good.
• 37:48
  Yeah, but again, these things are so hard to
• 37:49
  pin down because it depends on so many, you know,
• 37:52
  groups of people making an argument for something
• 37:55
  and using it as a tool to get others to understand
• 37:58
  it. That's how I look at it. So that's why for
• 38:01
  me, authenticity. Oh, I never really liked that
• 38:03
  word. And there was a period maybe 10 or 15 years
• 38:08
  ago when it was so overused that people were
• 38:11
  kind of like, what does it really mean? And so
• 38:14
  now I don't even I just stay away from it. which
• 38:16
  is, it's not very good of me to do, but, you
• 38:20
  know, I can think of in education when they say,
• 38:23
  you know, they want, you have to use unauthentic
• 38:26
  text for the students and that has a very specific
• 38:28
  meaning in the context of education. Okay, so
• 38:31
  I asked this question based on the art and the
• 38:35
  performance of... Okay, the reason I asked this
• 38:39
  question was because you mentioned social media...
• 38:42
  and the way that everything is staged. And then
• 38:46
  I said, well, is it authentic or is it original?
• 38:49
  And really the reason I ask those questions is
• 38:51
  to bring it back to how does that affect the
• 38:53
  mental health of viewers? Because we spoke about
• 38:56
  it before as well, and I mentioned the social
• 38:58
  bubbles that we put ourselves into through social
• 39:01
  media. Where nobody wants to post bad things.
• 39:04
  Nobody wants to talk about mental health issues.
• 39:07
  Nobody wants to say how sad they are online.
• 39:10
  I think a lot of people do. Now that you say
• 39:12
  that, I think that's true too. But for the vast
• 39:16
  majority of social media posts, it's done to
• 39:20
  make people look good. I would say that the people
• 39:24
  who do do it, it is kind of performative, and
• 39:27
  I'm always skeptical of someone putting that
• 39:29
  part of their life on social media. Is that a
• 39:32
  problem? I think it is problematic, yeah. What
• 39:35
  do you think, or the fact that they put it on?
• 39:38
  It depends why they're doing it. If it's like
• 39:39
  a cry for help, then it's one thing. But I think
• 39:41
  for the most part, it's they want a bunch of
• 39:43
  clicks. They want, you know, a million views.
• 39:46
  They want to monetize themselves. So when I,
• 39:50
  this is my opinion is when I see things like
• 39:52
  that, I think they're not really being honest.
• 39:56
  I could be wrong. I think it depends on the context
• 39:58
  of which they've posted as well. You know, if
• 40:00
  the rest of their content is... not of that way,
• 40:04
  and then they post like a singular post of them
• 40:07
  crying or saying that they're really struggling.
• 40:10
  Why do that? That I would struggle with. I mean,
• 40:13
  I follow quite a few accounts that are, you know,
• 40:15
  based on mental health or, you know, shadow work
• 40:18
  growth, all that type of stuff, which actually
• 40:20
  regularly there are creators, you know, exploring
• 40:23
  the worst sides of, you know, being neuro spicy,
• 40:26
  having a specific mental health condition, etc.
• 40:29
  So like, in that context, it doesn't feel out
• 40:31
  of place and therefore There's very little skepticism.
• 40:34
  Right, that's one thing. Those are tools to help
• 40:37
  people with mental issues. But it's the person
• 40:39
  who just films himself crying out of nowhere.
• 40:42
  You have to wonder, are you really in pain? Because
• 40:45
  you made the conscious choice to turn on your
• 40:48
  phone and cry, and then upload it. So I don't
• 40:51
  know if that's really honest. I can see... Okay,
• 40:56
  that connection and that question, I can see
• 40:59
  the validity of it. Because I would think...
• 41:02
  I've often, now, I'm trying to post more and
• 41:06
  I'm trying to gain traction. I want to be paid
• 41:09
  for putting things online. But then I see some
• 41:11
  of the things that people post and I think, how
• 41:14
  could I do that? And then you see 10 ,000 people
• 41:18
  are doing the trend. And then I'm like, well,
• 41:21
  fuck that shit. I don't want that. But it's tempting.
• 41:25
  And I can see how then my content can be... degraded
• 41:29
  into fucking fluff pieces about me opening my
• 41:33
  eye. Okay. So with that in mind, are we recognizing
• 41:38
  that we are entertaining first? Does it have
• 41:43
  to be honest if it's just for entertainment?
• 41:46
  Or is it honest because it is just entertainment?
• 41:51
  But this is what I want to say. I think that
• 41:54
  talking about and Posting on social media and
• 41:58
  receiving an empathetic response from people
• 42:01
  should be normalized. It shouldn't be a bad thing
• 42:05
  for someone to share their pain. No. And they
• 42:08
  shouldn't be necessarily seen as disingenuous.
• 42:11
  I think that questions are fair. If you've posted
• 42:17
  yourself just randomly crying with no reason,
• 42:20
  and if you're posting yourself, nobody plans
• 42:23
  to cry. So how are you filming your tears? I
• 42:26
  think that's the thing. For me, it all comes
• 42:27
  down to what feels like the intent. So if someone
• 42:32
  is, you know, sharing themselves crying or sharing
• 42:35
  themselves, like in a really bad way, having
• 42:38
  a panic attack, dealing with suicidal idealisation,
• 42:42
  to share with the intent of, you know, education,
• 42:47
  outsourced community, that makes sense to me.
• 42:50
  But that would all... be evident in the content
• 42:53
  and the context. All of the creators that I follow
• 42:58
  would never just have a post, for example, that
• 43:01
  has something that could be triggering. There's
• 43:02
  always a cover. There's always a content or a
• 43:05
  trigger warning. And for me, that feels very
• 43:08
  intentional and I can see the purpose of them
• 43:12
  sharing that. And I think that's what makes me
• 43:15
  buy into it a little bit more. So I think the
• 43:18
  posts that seem disingenuous or like they're
• 43:21
  just for attention or traction tend to not have
• 43:24
  that. The intent of them just wanting attention
• 43:28
  or wanting traction I think comes across quite
• 43:31
  clearly for someone who does engage with that
• 43:33
  type of content. So I think that's why for quite
• 43:36
  a few people it probably doesn't land very well.
• 43:39
  This comes into my topic that I wanted to talk
• 43:43
  about. Which is spicier. I try to bring in the
• 43:48
  lightheartedness. It's about consent. And it's
• 43:53
  about fucking. And sex. And sex positivity. And
• 44:00
  my perspective is consent isn't spoken about
• 44:04
  enough outside of the idea that you know through
• 44:09
  essay. And then it's too late. consent feels
• 44:16
  like rules but really it's a playpen because
• 44:22
  you set up the rules and you have your area for
• 44:25
  consent and that's how it should be and everybody
• 44:28
  should be clear on that and sometimes you get
• 44:31
  into a position where you tell someone okay i
• 44:34
  can see what you want this is what i need and
• 44:37
  then suddenly they disappear well then that's
• 44:39
  a problem i think 99 % of people don't understand
• 44:42
  what consent is No, I would agree with that.
• 44:45
  I also think as well, you know, when we're here
• 44:47
  saying that consent isn't spoken about enough,
• 44:49
  the fact that consent is only spoken about within
• 44:52
  a sexualised way as well is just wild. And that
• 44:55
  is partly, partly due to the world that we live
• 44:58
  in, you know, trying to create people that are
• 45:00
  not autonomous, rethinking people, because, you
• 45:02
  know, that is the intention of this world. You
• 45:06
  know, children, for example, should be taught
• 45:08
  that they have consent, they have bodily consent
• 45:10
  of what? people do. So I have quite a few spicy
• 45:15
  discussions with friends when I arrive and they're
• 45:19
  like, oh, give Jess a hug. And the kid clearly
• 45:22
  doesn't want to. And I've actually lost the best
• 45:24
  friend over this. I hadn't seen my best friend
• 45:26
  for about two years. We visited with their son,
• 45:29
  who is highly autistic, hadn't seen me for two
• 45:32
  years, probably didn't recognize who I was, which
• 45:34
  is absolutely understandable. And my friend tried
• 45:38
  to force them to give me a hug. And instantly
• 45:40
  I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's all
• 45:42
  good. It's all good. You're a good bud. And yeah,
• 45:46
  my friend was really mad about it. And I tried
• 45:48
  to have a conversation with them to be like,
• 45:50
  yo, this little human has bodily autonomy. You
• 45:54
  know, you should be teaching them that actually,
• 45:56
  they don't have to be touched if they're saying
• 45:58
  no, they need to understand the value of their
• 46:00
  no. And actually, I don't think that this is
• 46:02
  something that we're teaching children. So of
• 46:03
  course then, how do we have the language? How
• 46:05
  do we have the understanding to then have it
• 46:07
  within a sexualized day? Yes, really, really
• 46:11
  well. Start young. Let's go. I've never thought
• 46:15
  about it from the perspective of, yeah, children
• 46:19
  and bodily autonomy and things like that. Like
• 46:22
  something as innocent as, you know, saying, oh,
• 46:24
  go hug your aunt. But it's a very good point.
• 46:28
  Yeah. That's part of why now suddenly it's not
• 46:31
  fun anymore. Now it's great. Now you gotta take
• 46:34
  it serious. Sorry. No, it's fair because, OK,
• 46:38
  if this is where it needs to go, it needs to
• 46:40
  go here. Yeah. Because this question, this statement
• 46:45
  directly goes into the consent of a woman saying,
• 46:50
  I don't consent to having this child that is
• 46:53
  growing inside me. And then you have people who
• 46:56
  don't understand consent and think that that
• 46:59
  woman must now be forced to have that child.
• 47:04
  Okay, so when we were driving over here, I told
• 47:06
  Luigi what my topic was, and I asked him, define
• 47:10
  consent in three words. And I couldn't do it.
• 47:13
  Couldn't you? Because I'm reading a book on consent,
• 47:15
  actually, and it's so complicated of a topic
• 47:19
  that I'm just overthinking, and I just can't
• 47:22
  really put it in three words. I can give you
• 47:24
  three words. Okay, wait, let's see what her three
• 47:25
  words are. Let's see if they're the same as mine.
• 47:28
  Do you want to write them down? Okay. Originally,
• 47:32
  it was four words, but it can be three. Just
• 47:36
  slightly less. Well done. Here we go. That was
• 47:40
  one. The other one was... It's three words. It's
• 47:44
  four words. OK. Sorry. Cheat. Four words. Maybe
• 47:49
  there's another one. I don't remember. Is that
• 47:50
  the one? Yeah. OK, go. OK. Enthusiastic. Oh,
• 47:55
  that was it. Reversible. Yes. I said retractable.
• 48:00
  So mutual, freely given, or enthusiastically
• 48:03
  given, and retractable at any point. Talk about
• 48:06
  this at some point. So there's something that
• 48:08
  already says this about consent? BDSM. Yeah.
• 48:11
  Whenever anyone says to me, how do you know so
• 48:14
  much about sex and consent, because I do consent
• 48:17
  workshops, BDSM has taught me more about what
• 48:22
  I have the ability to say I want or not want
• 48:25
  than anything else in my life. Right. As well
• 48:29
  as giving me the tools to start navigating how
• 48:31
  to do that, which, you know, as a people -pleasing
• 48:33
  little neuro -spicy bean. Sure. Not my biggest
• 48:36
  skill. Right. So yeah, I think that gives a certain
• 48:42
  lens to looking at consent. And it's also, I
• 48:45
  think, what a lot of the, you know, the typical
• 48:48
  tropes that you hear about when, you know, there
• 48:51
  are lots of people who sexually assault someone
• 48:53
  and they do not realize that they are sexually
• 48:55
  assaulting them. Yeah. I think that's almost
• 48:58
  sadder than all of the sexual assaults coming
• 49:01
  from people that knew. But, you know, the, oh,
• 49:03
  but they said yes. Were they drunk? Were they
• 49:08
  enthusiastic? Did you pressure them? Were they
• 49:10
  coerced? Without having those nuanced understandings
• 49:15
  of that enthusiasticness, that being able to
• 49:19
  reverse it, you know, the whole thing of, oh
• 49:21
  well. They said that, like, they were thinking
• 49:24
  about this. It's like, yeah, but did they say
• 49:26
  in this specific moment, I want you to do text
• 49:28
  to me? For me, in all of my lessons, when I teach
• 49:33
  this with younger people, it always brings me
• 49:36
  back to the tea video. I don't know if you've
• 49:38
  seen it, but I absolutely love it. Explain it.
• 49:41
  Essentially, like, there's a couple of different
• 49:44
  things. You know, if someone says they'd like
• 49:46
  to come over for tea, and then they change their
• 49:48
  mind and they want something else to drink, that's
• 49:50
  OK. don't try and pour it down their throat.
• 49:53
  If someone says they want tea and then they fall
• 49:56
  asleep, you know, don't choke them on it. And
• 49:59
  it's all these type of little scenarios of how,
• 50:02
  you know, someone can revoke their consent that
• 50:05
  they've given and actually like, don't be a dick
• 50:08
  about it. But it's such a good video. That is,
• 50:10
  it's funny you bring that up because that is
• 50:13
  in the book I'm reading. I've been reading this
• 50:16
  book for so long in bits and one of the... One
• 50:20
  of the parts is consent is not like blah blah
• 50:23
  blah tee. Gotta find out what it's called. Give
• 50:25
  me a second, folks. Talk amongst yourselves.
• 50:27
  What is it called? So I've been approached by
• 50:32
  people who claim to be experienced mistresses
• 50:38
  or whatever, sadists. And they're just not. Because
• 50:45
  they don't even begin to understand consent.
• 50:50
  It's crazy to me. And that's why I think that's
• 50:53
  why a lot of these... Oh, that's what it's called.
• 50:56
  The Joy of Consent. That's what I'm reading.
• 50:58
  Cool. By French thinker Néanone Garcia. That's
• 51:02
  her name. But that's why, yeah. It's a complicated
• 51:08
  topic, obviously. There's like the superficial
• 51:10
  aspects of it, which is like, you know, asking
• 51:12
  permission and knowing how to interpret it. Well,
• 51:16
  maybe that's kind of cut and dry then. you know,
• 51:19
  as a concept, as an idea. Any questions? What,
• 51:22
  consent? My topic? I think people's understanding
• 51:26
  of it isn't, though, because, you know, we've
• 51:28
  seen time and time again, you know, the stats
• 51:32
  on, you know, female SA are devastatingly high.
• 51:38
  Yeah. And when you look at, you know, conversations
• 51:42
  like, you know, a bear or a man, the backlash
• 51:46
  of that. And, you know, the lack of understanding
• 51:51
  of just how pervasive the, I guess, the fear
• 51:55
  of non -consensual activity through lived experiences,
• 51:59
  particularly for a woman or female -presenting
• 52:01
  person, is, you know, it's wild. But actually
• 52:05
  so many don't understand the nuances about it.
• 52:10
  Yeah. How can we fix it? How can it be fixed?
• 52:14
  What's needed? to fix the world. I think that
• 52:17
  beyond starting younger and discussing consent
• 52:22
  within a wider frame and a wider context, even
• 52:27
  using the word more, consent has always been
• 52:31
  made to feel like a dirty word, something that
• 52:34
  shouldn't be spoken about, similar for some groups,
• 52:37
  even just discussing sex. And actually, I...
• 52:42
  If a friend shares a picture with me that I haven't
• 52:46
  consented to see, I will actively use that word.
• 52:49
  And yes, it causes arguments and it makes people
• 52:51
  uncomfortable. But if someone, for example, forwards
• 52:54
  me a picture of one of their partners, which
• 52:58
  I'm polyamorous, I have had that happen, to be
• 53:02
  like, yo, A, I don't consent to seeing that.
• 53:05
  B, do you have consent to share it? you know,
• 53:08
  normalizing use of that word. And I think unfortunately
• 53:10
  a lot of it comes down to is just that lots of
• 53:13
  humans do not treat other humans decently. And
• 53:15
  that's something that's cultivated. That's not
• 53:19
  something that, you know, we are asked to focus
• 53:21
  on when we are younger, when we're teens. That's
• 53:24
  something that's almost bred out of us because
• 53:26
  if we are willing to use and abuse each other,
• 53:31
  then the higher -ups get more out of us. Do you
• 53:33
  think there's... Like confusion between Because
• 53:39
  I hear what I hear how you're using consent the
• 53:41
  word But do you think people consider consent
• 53:44
  and permission interchangeable words or they
• 53:46
  very different things like if I said I don't
• 53:49
  give you permission to Let me you know to show
• 53:52
  me that could it be the same as saying I don't
• 53:54
  give consent. I think it's similar Yeah, but
• 53:57
  I think in in the world that we live in we're
• 53:59
  almost Courage to you know to not say when someone's
• 54:06
  done something that upsets us, to kind of just
• 54:08
  let things go, to have clearer boundaries. So
• 54:11
  I think even things like permission is still,
• 54:13
  you know, something that most people would link
• 54:17
  to like, you know, a permission form for something
• 54:19
  specific, et cetera, as opposed to, you know,
• 54:22
  something that should guide your daily actions.
• 54:25
  Right, yeah. Yeah. Deep thoughts. Like, I'm still
• 54:29
  dealing with a lot of... Sometimes I... I think
• 54:35
  the reason that this is such a touchy topic for
• 54:40
  people is it directly calls into question every
• 54:45
  single action that they've ever done in their
• 54:47
  life. And there are going to be times in everybody's
• 54:53
  life where they have violated consent in some
• 54:56
  way. It's not going to relate to necessarily...
• 55:00
  a heinous crime, but I think everybody violates
• 55:04
  consent. Are you talking about consent in a sexual
• 55:09
  sense or just consent, anything? In general.
• 55:12
  In general, okay. Sure, yeah, people making assumptions,
• 55:15
  yeah. But then also by extension for most adults.
• 55:19
  Now is that because? Sexual as well. Right, now
• 55:22
  is that because it's implied? See, this is the
• 55:25
  thing. This is the problem. This is the straw
• 55:28
  the challenge of consent is that it's not clearly
• 55:31
  defined like Okay, every culture has different
• 55:36
  ideas of consent and like you're in Europe for
• 55:39
  example in France their ideas of consent are
• 55:42
  different than America American consent the idea
• 55:44
  is way more strict than let's say France and
• 55:49
  so, you know, there's that that becomes the challenge
• 55:52
  of defining it and Really policing it. I'm talking
• 55:58
  about consent between two people more than society's
• 56:03
  concept of what consent is. But between two people,
• 56:07
  that idea is a result of how they're socialized
• 56:10
  around the concept. Yeah, sure, but in any situation
• 56:15
  like that, one of them is the power dynamic is
• 56:18
  not equal. It's never equal. No. No matter what.
• 56:22
  And I think that with partners, consent evolves.
• 56:30
  I'm not saying that it evolves beyond the boundaries
• 56:33
  that we've set and the definitions, but the way
• 56:36
  that is given and revoked and managed during
• 56:39
  an interaction of any kind evolves into something
• 56:44
  different. It becomes maybe a more mature, more
• 56:48
  nuanced version of... revocation and give a like.
• 56:54
  For example, if you, tell me if I'm wrong. If
• 56:58
  you are with, and tell me if I'm wrong. If you're
• 57:02
  with a partner and you've been with this partner
• 57:05
  for a long time, they can revoke their consent
• 57:12
  to do something in that time, even if you've
• 57:14
  done it before, with a sound. or a movement,
• 57:18
  or a look. And you will know what that means
• 57:20
  because you know them intimately. But yeah, so
• 57:23
  that's my point is like it can evolve over time.
• 57:27
  I think looking back to what you're talking about,
• 57:29
  Luigi, yeah, there are different understandings
• 57:32
  of consent. And I think the biggest aspect of
• 57:34
  that is generational. You know, if we look back
• 57:37
  30, 30 years. horrifyingly in some cultures less
• 57:43
  than that. You know, consent wasn't something
• 57:45
  that was discussed because, you know, it was
• 57:47
  a man's right. So actually these nuanced discussions
• 57:51
  around consent for some cultures are, you know,
• 57:55
  really quite young. We look at, you know, let's
• 57:58
  adjacent. I hate that word. If we look at laws,
• 58:01
  there are some countries where up until the early
• 58:05
  2000s, men were legally allowed to rape their
• 58:08
  wives. So in a cultural context of that. you
• 58:14
  know of course there's going to be some blurring
• 58:16
  lines and I think you know when we take I would
• 58:19
  say people who are of our generation we're kind
• 58:21
  of straddling two sides of kind of we grew up
• 58:25
  learning from what we saw in TV media our parents
• 58:28
  perhaps and that was kind of the old ethos whereas
• 58:32
  you know moving into a space where it is more
• 58:35
  acceptable to have these open discussions about
• 58:38
  it like you know even I was engaging in BDSM
• 58:41
  when I was younger than I should be. And even
• 58:44
  then I didn't have the language and no one had
• 58:47
  ever taught me I had the language. And it wasn't
• 58:50
  until maybe 10 years ago when I'd been practicing
• 58:52
  BDSM for over five years that I realized that
• 58:57
  I was allowed to say yes and no to certain things.
• 59:00
  I was allowed to say yes or no between scenes
• 59:04
  with the same partner. And I think the ethos
• 59:08
  around it has changed a lot because before that,
• 59:11
  you know, even outside of marriage, my first
• 59:14
  experience of heteronormative sex was as the
• 59:18
  woman, I accept whatever the man is giving and
• 59:22
  wants. So I think, yes, there is some there is
• 59:26
  some blurred lines, but I think that's a time.
• 59:30
  Do you think that was like a like a cultural
• 59:33
  construct of like being woman? Like, you just
• 59:38
  kind of passively accept a man's behavior in
• 59:42
  that respect, like, you know, oh, boys will be
• 59:43
  boys. I guess I can't, like you said, you don't
• 59:46
  know about consent. I think that was part of
• 59:49
  it, particularly as someone who I had come to
• 59:52
  terms with my own queerness at that point. But
• 59:55
  definitely when I was with male partners, I felt
• 59:58
  the need to be that feminine stereotype. Right.
• 1:00:04
  Interestingly, I started having conversations
• 1:00:06
  about what we do or didn't want, and that's kind
• 1:00:10
  of how consent was initially framed when I first
• 1:00:12
  started learning about it, with women far younger
• 1:00:15
  than with men. And even now, I find having these
• 1:00:20
  conversations with women far easier. There are,
• 1:00:23
  you know, certain groups of men that seem really
• 1:00:25
  receptive and really willing to have those conversations,
• 1:00:28
  particularly if you open them up. But I have
• 1:00:31
  still had, you know, in recent years, men turn
• 1:00:35
  around to me and be like, we don't need to talk
• 1:00:37
  about this, and instantly be like, goodbye. So
• 1:00:40
  it's definitely a shift and a cultural shift
• 1:00:44
  at that as well. But yeah, I think there is so
• 1:00:48
  much to one pick and ultimately you have to want
• 1:00:52
  to. And there are still just some people, because
• 1:00:56
  of who they are, because of how they've been
• 1:00:57
  brought up, that don't care. and therefore don't
• 1:01:01
  want to learn and don't want to navigate having
• 1:01:04
  these discussions or engender an understanding
• 1:01:07
  of consent. So they don't care about these things.
• 1:01:09
  Do you think, why don't they care about these
• 1:01:11
  things? Because we know it's bad. Like we know
• 1:01:15
  not giving consent is bad. So what I can't understand
• 1:01:18
  is why these people don't have no fear of them
• 1:01:21
  doing something bad. If you can rape someone
• 1:01:23
  and still be president, why would they be fair?
• 1:01:25
  Fair enough. Yeah, terrible. But yeah. That's
• 1:01:30
  a very good point. I'm still coming to terms
• 1:01:33
  with and learning about a lot of these things
• 1:01:36
  and breaking down my own misogyny that was ingrained
• 1:01:43
  in me. And I think a lot of... But to answer
• 1:01:46
  your question, I think it's just the patriarchy.
• 1:01:51
  I know that right now for a lot of people that
• 1:01:54
  will sound just radical and then they just...
• 1:01:57
  They think radical feminists and then they shut
• 1:01:59
  it down or they reject it. They think buzzwords.
• 1:02:02
  They've had buzzwords, exactly. Yeah. We have
• 1:02:07
  to figure out a way to work around these buzzwords
• 1:02:11
  that just shut it down because of rhetoric. Anyway,
• 1:02:14
  recently I made a comment on Facebook. It was
• 1:02:18
  a radio show about why Father's Day isn't big.
• 1:02:23
  Why Father's Day isn't as big as Mother's Day.
• 1:02:28
  My comment was, I don't remember exactly what
• 1:02:31
  the conversation was, but basically one of the
• 1:02:34
  questions was, should we cancel Father's Day
• 1:02:38
  altogether? Because there are some fathers that
• 1:02:43
  are good. Anyway, my comment was, and then you
• 1:02:46
  get some men who complained, who will complain
• 1:02:51
  about this being canceled. But the bottom line
• 1:02:55
  is show up. and then we'll have a discussion.
• 1:02:58
  Right. Show up first. The reaction was that a
• 1:03:01
  whole bunch of fathers replied to me, right?
• 1:03:05
  And they're like, you know, we're here, you're
• 1:03:08
  just ignoring us, this is erasure, blah, blah,
• 1:03:11
  blah, blah, whatever. But none of my comments
• 1:03:13
  were about that. The point is society has created
• 1:03:20
  a scenario where even good fathers by no fault
• 1:03:25
  of their own are stuck at work bread -winning
• 1:03:28
  and they will think that a comment like that
• 1:03:33
  targets them explicitly because I'm saying that
• 1:03:37
  they they they are assuming that I'm saying that
• 1:03:41
  they're bad fathers and then they'll be like
• 1:03:44
  there are bad mothers there are absent mothers
• 1:03:46
  you know of course there are nobody made that
• 1:03:49
  claim But your problem isn't with the fact that
• 1:03:52
  you can't be at school on Father's Day. Your
• 1:03:56
  problem is by the fact that you are stuck at
• 1:03:58
  work and not able to go. And that problem is
• 1:04:01
  because of the patriarchy. Because you are supposed
• 1:04:05
  to be the breadwinner in your heteronormative
• 1:04:08
  society. So fix that first and then show up for
• 1:04:13
  feminism and then we can talk. It's equal. You
• 1:04:16
  think that will fix consent? How did I go from
• 1:04:19
  there to consent? I think that yes, when the
• 1:04:24
  power dynamic shifts to something that is seen
• 1:04:27
  in society as truly equal. Oh yeah, definitely.
• 1:04:32
  Where gender norms are broken down to a point
• 1:04:36
  where it doesn't really matter. what you are,
• 1:04:40
  how you present and who you feel like. And I
• 1:04:43
  think that's probably why there are, you know,
• 1:04:47
  less issues. And I'm not saying there's none,
• 1:04:49
  because of course there always is, but there
• 1:04:52
  statistically are less issues with consent in
• 1:04:56
  BDSM where there is less distinction of power
• 1:04:59
  in terms of the power to gender ratio or queer
• 1:05:04
  couples. So... addressing that would kind of
• 1:05:08
  hopefully help. Yeah, exactly, because in a BDSM
• 1:05:12
  scene, it's really the masochist who has all
• 1:05:16
  the power. The sub holds ultimate power, and
• 1:05:19
  only Dom, who says they don't, is not left the
• 1:05:23
  way insult. Exactly, because that is the person
• 1:05:25
  who says, we stop now. Who sets the parameters
• 1:05:28
  of which it takes place. But they both agree
• 1:05:34
  to consent. so okay do you both this is for both
• 1:05:40
  you uh do you think consent is a contract between
• 1:05:44
  two people it's an on i think it's an ongoing
• 1:05:48
  agreement contract i was going to ask if you
• 1:05:51
  would use agreement as um transposable for contract
• 1:05:56
  for me they're different words that some people
• 1:05:58
  see them as the same like a contract you necessarily
• 1:06:00
  like sign on a piece of paper but consent is
• 1:06:05
  And to it and once the terms have been agreed
• 1:06:09
  on it it carries on but that might see the challenge
• 1:06:12
  was instantly revocable It's an ongoing agreement
• 1:06:16
  that can be ended by either party at any moment
• 1:06:19
  sure or amended or amended Yeah, and that might
• 1:06:22
  be why consent is such a tricky topic especially
• 1:06:25
  in law because it it is contractual but paradoxically
• 1:06:28
  it's it's not because people essentially they
• 1:06:31
  they can break it but it It's almost like it
• 1:06:35
  shouldn't be broken once you agree. That's that's
• 1:06:38
  where people that's where let's say the the bad
• 1:06:42
  The bad people get angry, you know, you broke
• 1:06:46
  the contract so they feel like they've been What
• 1:06:51
  what's the word such yeah, that's such a rabbit
• 1:06:53
  hole because the moment you said that I thought
• 1:06:55
  oh You know that trans panic. It doesn't make
• 1:06:59
  it right. Definitely Like, a person should be
• 1:07:02
  able to change their mind, but I think that's
• 1:07:04
  one of the big challenges with consent, especially
• 1:07:06
  in, like, you know, law and things, is that when
• 1:07:11
  bad things go down, when bad things happen...
• 1:07:14
  Can I not plug it in? When bad things happen,
• 1:07:19
  they can't... They can't, I forget, I don't know,
• 1:07:24
  I lost the train of thought. They can't defend
• 1:07:25
  themselves? Is that not just like the same as
• 1:07:28
  the men who expect, like expect sex? So for example,
• 1:07:33
  you know, that's just like, that's just bad.
• 1:07:35
  It's just toxic masculinity. Like that's bad.
• 1:07:38
  But it's kind of similar, isn't it? It's a similar
• 1:07:42
  way of thinking. That's kind of like coercion.
• 1:07:44
  Those men who do... who, you know, force themselves
• 1:07:48
  on women and the women acquiesce. I think that's
• 1:07:50
  a form of coercion and it's bad. But even without
• 1:07:53
  like pushing themselves on them. So for example,
• 1:07:55
  like I've been on dates and I've had like a guy,
• 1:07:59
  a guy offer to pay and me be like, no, I'm okay,
• 1:08:03
  thank you. Because I stopped letting men pay
• 1:08:07
  on the first date because that led to so many
• 1:08:10
  conversations around, oh, I paid for your dinner.
• 1:08:12
  So what do you mean we're not going back to your
• 1:08:14
  house? And that happened quite frequently, more
• 1:08:20
  often than not, which is why it led to me no
• 1:08:23
  longer allowing people to pay because that payment
• 1:08:27
  seemed to be considered transactional for sex.
• 1:08:31
  And I think that is the mindset that I mean kind
• 1:08:37
  of akin to the concept of consent being like...
• 1:08:41
  Well, I've signed the contract. I've said yes.
• 1:08:44
  Yeah, it's it's that similar paradoxical mindset
• 1:08:47
  of right. Oh, this is well, this is kind of comes
• 1:08:50
  down to a man's expectation of my right. Right.
• 1:08:53
  Exactly. Which is so in your younger years, you,
• 1:08:58
  you, you, you kind of you accepted that when
• 1:09:02
  they paid for dinner, you thought, oh, I guess
• 1:09:03
  I have to. Yeah, there are definitely times when
• 1:09:06
  I have done things with people that I felt obliged
• 1:09:09
  to. There are times when I felt unsafe to say
• 1:09:12
  no. Right, yeah, there's another big issue. There
• 1:09:15
  are times when I had said no and then was coerced
• 1:09:21
  or convinced. Here's something that I think is...
• 1:09:29
  What are the cool aspects of consent working?
• 1:09:32
  is all of a sudden what becomes okay. Once you
• 1:09:37
  have a proper playpen set up and the agreement
• 1:09:40
  is there and trust is built, objectification,
• 1:09:44
  sexualization, all of these things suddenly become
• 1:09:46
  acceptable within the framework of consent, fetishization,
• 1:09:52
  everything. And that, to me, is much more exciting
• 1:09:56
  than the effort it takes to get consent to to
• 1:10:02
  a point, and if only people could understand,
• 1:10:05
  like, oh, if I engage with this structure, this
• 1:10:09
  contract or agreement in a proper way, then this
• 1:10:13
  person's body is my oyster. Right away. Yeah.
• 1:10:17
  But again, it comes down to like being given
• 1:10:18
  those tools. And unfortunately, you know, there
• 1:10:21
  are, you know, if we look at, for example, Tramporty
• 1:10:25
  Long's kids, you know, they're not going to have
• 1:10:28
  been taught how to have conversations about a
• 1:10:30
  woman's body. I don't know about that. Not Trump,
• 1:10:33
  but Elon has a transgender child. He's disowned.
• 1:10:37
  Yes, but she's still his kid and she's still
• 1:10:39
  intelligent. No, no, no, no. I think that she
• 1:10:43
  discovered that on her own and she will happily
• 1:10:47
  inform her siblings about it, but it's not going
• 1:10:50
  to come from Elon. So you think those kids just
• 1:10:52
  won't learn about it? I think they won't be given
• 1:10:54
  appropriate tools to have conversations in the
• 1:10:57
  way the modern world expects. I think the world,
• 1:11:00
  I think they have those things. I think they
• 1:11:02
  have access to them. I think it's an issue of
• 1:11:05
  power. And that's a kind of class issue. Like
• 1:11:09
  they understand where they are in the world.
• 1:11:12
  And if they are true, not saying they are, but
• 1:11:15
  if they're bad people. If they're bad people,
• 1:11:20
  they'll do bad things because they have, you
• 1:11:22
  know, so much power to exercise. Anyway, which
• 1:11:26
  is terrible. That's just another topic. You're
• 1:11:28
  right. I brought it back to Nazis. I think I
• 1:11:31
  went there with Elon. We can take mutual responsibility
• 1:11:35
  there. I had no idea Elon Musk's family were
• 1:11:40
  Nazis in Canada. I had no idea. I think his dad
• 1:11:44
  is pretty woke. Actually, I'm using that term.
• 1:11:50
  In a way, like... Tolerant? Tolerant, understanding,
• 1:11:56
  progressive, liberal, advocate for equal rights
• 1:12:02
  in South Africa. But owns diamond mines, or emerald
• 1:12:05
  mines. Owns a diamond mine, so... Yeah, exactly,
• 1:12:10
  emerald mines. I'm not sure how far that goes,
• 1:12:13
  but he was part of the... by the groups within
• 1:12:17
  the universities that fought for equal rights.
• 1:12:21
  How that squares with him marrying an actual
• 1:12:25
  Nazi, I have no idea. So... He didn't know she
• 1:12:30
  was a Nazi. Great. I don't think Nazis are good
• 1:12:34
  at hiding what the heart wants. The heart wants
• 1:12:36
  what the heart wants. When you love somebody,
• 1:12:37
  you will accept how crazy their family is, right?
• 1:12:40
  How many times do we hear that? This is not...
• 1:12:43
  A rose by any other name would still smell as
• 1:12:46
  sweet in that way. I just don't think you've
• 1:12:49
  loved someone so much that you just have to accept
• 1:12:51
  their crazy family. That's the cliche. I'm reporting
• 1:12:54
  from popular culture. I certainly haven't. Elon's
• 1:12:57
  mom, I don't think she was... It wasn't like
• 1:12:59
  her family was that and she wasn't. I think she
• 1:13:01
  was actually also. I'm not sure. No more diverging
• 1:13:05
  to Nazis. Go back. That's coming back to consent.
• 1:13:08
  Okay, so consent. Should we depend on the law?
• 1:13:12
  to help us no with consent no really no why because
• 1:13:16
  it's written by men for the purpose of men i
• 1:13:19
  was just gonna say not all men there must be
• 1:13:24
  some women law female lawmakers come on it's
• 1:13:27
  all made luigi until it's no men i understand
• 1:13:30
  like yeah consent even in even in law the the
• 1:13:35
  like This is something I learned recently. I
• 1:13:37
  don't know if it's criminal law or there's so
• 1:13:39
  many terms for law, but the point is if a contract
• 1:13:42
  is made and it still disrupts the social order,
• 1:13:46
  it is null and void according to the law. And
• 1:13:49
  that's why I think when it comes to consent,
• 1:13:51
  the law is important and can be helpful for things
• 1:13:53
  like consent. I think it can be helpful, but
• 1:13:56
  I also think it can be... used to, I guess, uphold
• 1:14:00
  like certain groups' agendas. Take like sex work,
• 1:14:03
  for example. Yeah. I think that someone should
• 1:14:06
  be able to decide whether they consent to selling
• 1:14:10
  their body or services for money. Sure. As well
• 1:14:13
  as someone being able to consent to purchasing
• 1:14:15
  that. But if you think about how many countries
• 1:14:18
  have put laws against either one or both. So
• 1:14:23
  I think the problem with us relying on law for
• 1:14:25
  consent is it becomes a Well, the law says XYZ
• 1:14:29
  and anything else is outlawed. And the criminalisation
• 1:14:34
  of that and typically how that impacts women
• 1:14:36
  and female presenting people, people who are
• 1:14:39
  queer, people of colour. So if you look at, you
• 1:14:42
  know, the types of people, if we continue on
• 1:14:45
  the like, strand of sex work, typically lower
• 1:14:48
  class people, the disproportionate amount of
• 1:14:51
  people who are, you know, people of colour, Hispanic,
• 1:14:53
  etc. and they're already, you know, at risk and
• 1:14:57
  vulnerable. So it's looking at whether the law
• 1:15:02
  gives protection to everyone or just the groups
• 1:15:06
  of people who benefit from those laws. Well,
• 1:15:08
  I would hope the law protects everybody. Unfortunately,
• 1:15:12
  I think it comes into the... Depends on a good
• 1:15:15
  lawyer. We cannot codify... concept. And I think
• 1:15:19
  that consent is a concept based around bodily
• 1:15:22
  autonomy and personal proximity. Well then now
• 1:15:25
  this just depends on just how good human beings
• 1:15:28
  are to each other. You just have to hope, you
• 1:15:31
  know. Anybody who's not a good human being to
• 1:15:35
  someone else is violating consent by definition.
• 1:15:38
  I guess for me I can't reconcile the idea or
• 1:15:43
  the term of consent without some kind of greater
• 1:15:46
  authority to uphold it. And that's where I am
• 1:15:50
  kind of like, oh, consent now is just like a
• 1:15:53
  thing we're saying informally between two people.
• 1:15:58
  OK, but OK, here's the question. Because if something
• 1:16:01
  bad goes, sorry to cut you off, but if something
• 1:16:03
  bad happens, what's the one person going to say?
• 1:16:06
  You were wrong to me. How does the person who
• 1:16:09
  breaks that, you know, contract of consent, the
• 1:16:13
  informal contract of consent, how do they get
• 1:16:17
  punished or not do it again or pay for their
• 1:16:21
  crimes? See, now I'm using a lot of legal language.
• 1:16:23
  Tough. I think those are good questions. Here's
• 1:16:26
  a question. I think sex work is a good allegory
• 1:16:32
  for it. It's your body, right? Okay. And your...
• 1:16:39
  ability to sell your body exists only with you.
• 1:16:43
  And if it's not that, it's slavery. Yeah. And
• 1:16:45
  for someone to deny you that ability directly
• 1:16:49
  affects your autonomy as a human being. Okay,
• 1:16:52
  how about this? Sometimes you have to work or
• 1:16:55
  else you'll starve and die. So really, do you
• 1:16:57
  have a choice? Why do you have to work? To make
• 1:16:59
  money. That's my point. We shouldn't need money.
• 1:17:01
  We shouldn't need money. No. Well, it would be
• 1:17:04
  nice. Like your basic needs food or... should
• 1:17:08
  be provided, right? That's like basic tenet of
• 1:17:11
  all human rights. Okay, who's going to provide
• 1:17:13
  these things? In my opinion, it should be provided
• 1:17:16
  by the state, the community that you live in,
• 1:17:21
  whichever community that might be. And for us,
• 1:17:24
  our communities are ultra massive. So the state.
• 1:17:30
  Because at my heart, basically, what I'm saying
• 1:17:33
  is I learned... So, shouldn't the state, doesn't
• 1:17:40
  the state, or rather shouldn't the state have
• 1:17:43
  a right to create rules to maintain order so
• 1:17:46
  everyone can have their free food and free shelter
• 1:17:49
  and things like that? But who gets to decide
• 1:17:51
  what is and isn't disorder? Like one person saying
• 1:17:54
  that sex work is disorder. We all have to, we
• 1:17:57
  have to have people who represent us and then
• 1:18:01
  they have bigger groups. And elective visuals,
• 1:18:04
  obviously. See, it's complicated. I don't think
• 1:18:09
  anybody's advocating for nobody being a leader
• 1:18:12
  of necessarily some kind of guidance. We spoke
• 1:18:18
  about this yesterday. Some rules are required
• 1:18:20
  for some interactions because that relates directly
• 1:18:23
  to insight. But what shouldn't be controlled
• 1:18:30
  by anyone? is the production of goods. Okay.
• 1:18:35
  And that's communism, right? When the production
• 1:18:40
  of goods at least becomes collectively earned,
• 1:18:43
  then everybody suddenly has food. I'm thinking
• 1:18:48
  of something to say, but I don't want to say
• 1:18:50
  it. I'm just thinking of how to say it. So there's,
• 1:18:54
  you know, people who own the means of production
• 1:18:58
  and then capital and the person selling their
• 1:19:01
  capital. to create something. No more capital.
• 1:19:04
  Means of production goes to the organized state.
• 1:19:08
  You get to keep your farm, but all of your debt
• 1:19:11
  is wiped out. You can keep it or you can move
• 1:19:14
  out. But the crops that you have, the land, becomes
• 1:19:18
  property of the state. You can stay in your house.
• 1:19:20
  You can probably still run the farm. You have
• 1:19:23
  everything you need. And by everything you need,
• 1:19:26
  it's not like, oh, you need... It would be like...
• 1:19:29
  Hey, I'm doing a podcast. You know what I need?
• 1:19:32
  I need five of those cameras. And then those
• 1:19:36
  five cameras get delivered to me. Who's going
• 1:19:38
  to make all those cameras? What if somebody wants
• 1:19:40
  more cameras than you? And they can have them
• 1:19:43
  if they need them. If they need them. That's
• 1:19:46
  the that's the thing, isn't it? If they need
• 1:19:48
  who's going to decide you're needing too much.
• 1:19:50
  And then, OK, so my personal opinion comes like
• 1:19:54
  I like the idea of no, there's no ownership of
• 1:19:59
  of production. That's owned by the state. But
• 1:20:03
  you still own your personal production. The art
• 1:20:08
  that you make is not owned by anybody else. But
• 1:20:12
  that is not something that anyone else needs.
• 1:20:15
  But you might want that. So as a social lubricant,
• 1:20:19
  money may exist for you to purchase some of that
• 1:20:23
  with universal basic income. So you are able
• 1:20:27
  to acquire wealth and get things that you want,
• 1:20:30
  not need. So economic activities that are not
• 1:20:35
  related to the means of production of basic human.
• 1:20:39
  I think that's the thing though as well, like
• 1:20:41
  I would argue that a camera is not a basic human
• 1:20:44
  need. Sure, that's fair. So I think, you know,
• 1:20:47
  when we're talking about... But if I say I want
• 1:20:49
  to do a podcast, I'm starting an entertainment.
• 1:20:52
  But that's still not a basic human need. That's
• 1:20:55
  fair. We're all gonna be farmers and just...
• 1:20:58
  No, no, no. This is it. Perfection. What's it
• 1:21:00
  in? Perfection. Yeah, literally. Run a farm.
• 1:21:04
  Don't have to worry about work. Be able to make
• 1:21:06
  some art. Literally the goal. Well, that's your
• 1:21:08
  goal. Yeah. I think that there's a space for
• 1:21:11
  technology within this perfect communist society.
• 1:21:15
  And I think that nobody's going to say, you can't
• 1:21:18
  have food for yourself. Like, you can still have
• 1:21:22
  your own cow. What if I'm still hungry? What?
• 1:21:26
  Sounds great. We've diverged far from consent.
• 1:21:29
  How did we get here? It comes from rules of this
• 1:21:33
  state. Basically, what I think is what we're
• 1:21:36
  coming to is the concept, at least for this particular
• 1:21:40
  instance of the podcast, the concept of consent
• 1:21:42
  is the discussion is closing. I don't want to
• 1:21:45
  talk about anything. We've been at this for two
• 1:21:51
  hours. Really? Yeah. We're gonna wrap it up!
• 1:21:57
  I loved how you loosened up. I could have talked
• 1:21:58
  about kink. Yeah, you started off a little bit
• 1:22:01
  nervous. I told you, I am really not good at
• 1:22:05
  this type of stuff until it's stuff that I really
• 1:22:07
  care about. Oh, then we should have talked about
• 1:22:08
  shit you really cared about. Don't forget to
• 1:22:13
  subscribe, comment, share. You can follow us
• 1:22:18
  on YouTube at Ray Liu. or instagram fire from
• 1:22:24
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