Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Teen girl Abby kidnapped, tortured in plastic cargo container by American History freak

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Teen girl Abby kidnapped, tortured in plastic cargo container by American History freak · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm a lot of way
0:13
Speaker 1: before the it was don't presiditating factors to this. We
0:20
Speaker 1: didn't have a fight. I'm just started and still like
0:25
Speaker 1: stoned and shocked, even after six months out of town.
0:29
Speaker 1: Zen Your Hernandez spoke to us by phone Monday, just
0:32
Speaker 1: after she published this message to Abby on the website
0:35
Speaker 1: bring Abby home dot com. Sen your rights quote. In
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Speaker 1: the beginning, minutes and hours lasted eternity. Hours turned to days, weeks, months,
0:45
Speaker 1: and the first days I didn't think I could survive
0:47
Speaker 1: the blinding shock, not even for a week. But over
0:50
Speaker 1: the past six months, then you has how have you
0:53
Speaker 1: been even coping? Oh? I don't have a choice? Uh
0:59
Speaker 1: show and I just don't have a choice. We have
1:01
Speaker 1: to do. We're talking about Abigail her Nandez, a teen
1:08
Speaker 1: girl who goes missing, last scene on school surveillance video.
1:13
Speaker 1: How can that happen? I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
1:18
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls.
1:21
Speaker 1: Nine zero nine four nine two seven four six three
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Speaker 1: nine zero nine four nine Crime Abby her Nandez. There's
1:29
Speaker 1: been a stunning break in the case, but it all
1:33
Speaker 1: goes back to the moment she was taken, the moment
1:39
Speaker 1: she was kidnapped to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold
1:44
Speaker 1: Case Research Institute, let me just introduce everybody an all
1:48
Speaker 1: star lineup just for you right now. Cheryl McCollum with me,
1:53
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute. Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor. Dr
1:58
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall renounced like analysts out of l A. Veteran
2:02
Speaker 1: defense attorney Troyce Layton, also from l A. Dr William Maroney,
2:08
Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner and author of a new book American Narcan,
2:13
Speaker 1: and Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley. Cheryl McCollum,
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Speaker 1: you have two children. I have two children. I don't
2:21
Speaker 1: get it. She's on school surveillance, everything's fine. Then she's
2:25
Speaker 1: just gone like she never even existed, Cheryl, biggest nightmare.
2:30
Speaker 1: You drop them all. You think they're fine, You think
2:32
Speaker 1: you know, they've got teachers that normally care about them.
2:35
Speaker 1: There's generally a school resource officer, and this child literally
2:39
Speaker 1: vanishes with everybody around her that knows. Abby Hernandez, a
2:44
Speaker 1: teen girl, seemingly just vanishes off the face of the earth.
2:49
Speaker 1: How did she go missing? John Limley. Well. The mother
2:51
Speaker 1: Zenya Hernandez really didn't think anything was strange at first.
2:55
Speaker 1: When her fourteen year old daughter Abigail didn't come home
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Speaker 1: from school on in October afternoon, she thought, well, she
3:02
Speaker 1: could be anywhere. She's probably at school with her friends.
3:05
Speaker 1: Zenya is a nurse, happy life in North Conway, New Hampshire,
3:11
Speaker 1: raising two daughters, Sarah and Abigail, also known as Abbey. Well.
3:15
Speaker 1: As a new high school freshman, Abby studied German robotics,
3:20
Speaker 1: love classic rock, so she was a busy kid. So
3:23
Speaker 1: her not showing up from school, she was off exploring life.
3:27
Speaker 1: And so when Abby didn't answer her mother's text, Zenya, well,
3:32
Speaker 1: she did eventually begin to worry. Abby had never just
3:35
Speaker 1: not shown up at home from school. Yeah, that was
3:39
Speaker 1: the first alarm right then when she didn't answer her
3:43
Speaker 1: mother's texts to Dr Bethany Marshall Psycho Alice joining us
3:48
Speaker 1: out of l A. I mean with me and the
3:50
Speaker 1: twins are about to turn eleven. You can't come down
3:53
Speaker 1: on them every time they do, like for instance, when
3:56
Speaker 1: John David places thirty one minutes of the Evil Fortnit
3:59
Speaker 1: or as we call it, Fortnight. Uh, I can't come
4:03
Speaker 1: down on him for that, or Lucy once again, we're
4:07
Speaker 1: up at ten o'clock at night doing the homework she
4:09
Speaker 1: was supposed to do at three thirty. Yeah, but long
4:11
Speaker 1: story short, if you if you beat him over the
4:13
Speaker 1: head every single time they do anything, pretty soon they're
4:17
Speaker 1: gonna be climbing out in the bedroom window and you're
4:19
Speaker 1: not going to see him at all. So you know,
4:21
Speaker 1: you gotta temperate. So when Abby didn't answer the mom's
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Speaker 1: first couple of texts, moms like, Okay, I don't like it,
4:27
Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna come down on her. But then
4:29
Speaker 1: it went bad. It went sideways. Well it went bad
4:33
Speaker 1: um just about two fifty seven, because that's when Abby
4:37
Speaker 1: texted her boyfriend who was riding home on the bus,
4:40
Speaker 1: and texted a little heart emoji to him. But I
4:43
Speaker 1: think that might have been her last text. And you're
4:45
Speaker 1: talking about John, David and Lucy. You know, there's such
4:48
Speaker 1: a fine line between loving your children and then intruding
4:51
Speaker 1: into them. I find with my nephews and nieces, I
4:53
Speaker 1: always want to say, how is your day, how are
4:55
Speaker 1: you doing? Did you do your homework? But pretty soon
4:57
Speaker 1: they start to feel intruded on and control, so this
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Speaker 1: mom was trying to give her daughter a little space.
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Speaker 1: And this mom also no new Abby. She knew her daughter,
5:07
Speaker 1: She knew that her daughter had a big life. A
5:09
Speaker 1: John Lemley described love robotics, loved you know, all kinds
5:13
Speaker 1: of things, and was also a very friendly young woman.
5:16
Speaker 1: So she gave her a little space. So unfortunately, um
5:20
Speaker 1: it was space in which bad things started to happen.
5:23
Speaker 1: Little did mommy know then that her little girl Abby
5:28
Speaker 1: would soon be held in a cargo container wearing a
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Speaker 1: shock collar around her neck. Listen as her friends beg
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Speaker 1: her to come home. Dear Abby, I cannot tell you
5:41
Speaker 1: enough how much you are missed. I know you probably
5:44
Speaker 1: have heard at some point that you are missed, but
5:46
Speaker 1: I don't think it can be described and missing that
5:49
Speaker 1: goes on the words we miss you, Abby. Flash across
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Speaker 1: the new video posted on the Bring Abbey Home website.
5:55
Speaker 1: It's filled with messages from friends, updates on high school
5:59
Speaker 1: moments she's missed since she disappeared. Hi, Abby, I know
6:03
Speaker 1: I haven't seen you in a while, and I wrote
6:05
Speaker 1: you a letter. But first I'd really like to show
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Speaker 1: you around my room because I repainted it and I
6:11
Speaker 1: read it all. I really need you back because nobody
6:14
Speaker 1: else like you. You're not only the funniest person I
6:18
Speaker 1: will probably have the ability of meeting, but you make
6:20
Speaker 1: my day just bias talking. It is another attempt to
6:23
Speaker 1: reach Abby Hernandez last scene leaving Kennett High School in
6:26
Speaker 1: North Conway last October. In December, her mother revealed that
6:30
Speaker 1: she had received a letter from Abby, but no clues
6:33
Speaker 1: were released as to why she vanished or where she
6:36
Speaker 1: could be. Letters are also posted on the website. One
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Speaker 1: friend writes, I am missing our walks down to lunch
6:42
Speaker 1: from algebra and our talks about the most random things.
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Speaker 1: Another says, one of the hardest things is knowing that
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Speaker 1: I can't talk to you when I need you the most.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, we just really really miss you. Abby. Please
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Speaker 1: be home soon. That's our friend Jane mcken. At w
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Speaker 1: M you are earlier, we heard from Nick spinetto at
7:01
Speaker 1: w M. U are trying desperately to find Abby, her
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Speaker 1: friends posting videos pictures begging her to come home. They
7:08
Speaker 1: had no idea that at that moment she was being
7:12
Speaker 1: held in a cargo container by a freak who was
7:16
Speaker 1: forcing her to call him Master and wear a shock
7:20
Speaker 1: collar around her neck. What does that main to? Dr
7:27
Speaker 1: William Moroney, you know, a veteran medical examiner, author of
7:33
Speaker 1: a brand new book on Amazon American Narcan. Dr William Ronny.
7:36
Speaker 1: We always here shock collar. What is a shock collar?
7:40
Speaker 1: A shock collar is a conductive metal to bring a
7:46
Speaker 1: charge from a battery to the skin. And the shock
7:51
Speaker 1: collar is designed to be around the neck because that's
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Speaker 1: some of the thinnest skin on the human body, and
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Speaker 1: those are also some of the thickest neck muscles, and
8:03
Speaker 1: they run up to the head and it causes pain.
8:05
Speaker 1: It causes pain in the head, it causes pain and
8:08
Speaker 1: back of the head, it causes pain in the jaw,
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Speaker 1: Whereas if you try to put a shot collar on
8:13
Speaker 1: a somebody's thigh, it's not going to make the same
8:18
Speaker 1: negative contribution. There's no negative feedback when you shock a big,
8:23
Speaker 1: huge muscle, So you put it on the neck because
8:25
Speaker 1: there's very thin skin and those muscles run up to
8:28
Speaker 1: the head. Negative reinforcement. And it's operated by remote control,
8:34
Speaker 1: infrared or ultrasound. They're used only sparingly on animals, usually
8:41
Speaker 1: in training or for discipline, and then when the animals
8:44
Speaker 1: learn the parameters of a yard and they no longer
8:48
Speaker 1: run out of the yard. People take the shot collars
8:50
Speaker 1: off or around small children to teach animals not to
8:55
Speaker 1: impede on the space of a small child. But on
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Speaker 1: the human there's a big thick code of fur. And
9:03
Speaker 1: like I said, those are very thin skin parts and
9:06
Speaker 1: they go up to the head, very very negative reinforcing.
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Speaker 1: You know, Dr William Moroney, as learned and experienced as
9:14
Speaker 1: you are, I guess you never thought you got a
9:16
Speaker 1: medical skill to talk about a shot caller. Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst.
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Speaker 1: He's telling me the physical impact of a shot caller.
9:24
Speaker 1: But you look at it in a different way, Dr Bethany, Well,
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Speaker 1: I look at it as sadism. I know we've talked
9:30
Speaker 1: about this so many times, but sadism is one of
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Speaker 1: the five perversions listed in the d s M. And
9:36
Speaker 1: sadism is when a perpetrator wants to inflict pain on
9:40
Speaker 1: a victim to enhance is his her own sexual arousal.
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Speaker 1: That's what it is, the end of the day. And
9:47
Speaker 1: so you know, sadly, as soon as this perpetrator um
9:51
Speaker 1: kidnapped Abby, I think he started to set up conditions
9:54
Speaker 1: in which he could inflict pain upon her. I'm sure
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Speaker 1: there was psychological torture or physical torture. As you at earlier,
10:01
Speaker 1: she was had held in a plastic container. I don't
10:04
Speaker 1: know how big that container was. But one of the
10:06
Speaker 1: things we know about sociopaths is that they have very
10:10
Speaker 1: poor sexual arousal outside of inflicting pain on their victims.
10:16
Speaker 1: In other words, they can't get turned on without hurting
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Speaker 1: another person. So the m O of the kidnapping, the abduction,
10:22
Speaker 1: the infliction of pain is that it's a highly sexually
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Speaker 1: motivated crime. And when I think about this fourteen year
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Speaker 1: old girl being held and reportedly a cargo container wearing
10:35
Speaker 1: a shot collar, it's almost more than I can think
10:38
Speaker 1: my mind. Twins are soon to be eleven, that's just
10:42
Speaker 1: three years away. Speaking of inflicting pain, if you have
10:48
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10:51
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10:55
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11:00
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11:04
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11:07
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11:12
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11:16
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11:21
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11:27
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11:31
Speaker 1: sixth Central on Oxygen, the new network for Crime. He said,
11:36
Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking of finding something a little more
11:38
Speaker 1: humane for you to keep you quiet. So I'm thinking
11:42
Speaker 1: of a shock collar. You know, they're like dogs. Where
11:46
Speaker 1: a shock collar. I remember he put it on me
11:49
Speaker 1: and he told me, okay, try and scream, and I
11:54
Speaker 1: just slowly started to raise my voice and then it
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Speaker 1: shocked me. So he's like, okay, now you know what
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Speaker 1: it feels like. You know, did you ever learn his name?
12:02
Speaker 1: Did he say anything about who he was? Actually, he
12:05
Speaker 1: told me, um, call me, call me master. What a freak,
12:12
Speaker 1: What a freak, A horrible monster that stole fourteen year
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Speaker 1: old Abby Hernandez, last seen on school video. Mom had
12:22
Speaker 1: no idea what was happening. You are hearing our friends
12:26
Speaker 1: at ABC's twenty in the voice of Abby Hernandez. Abby
12:32
Speaker 1: Hernandez kidnapped and taken taken away from her home from
12:36
Speaker 1: her mother from her school. It's hard for me to
12:40
Speaker 1: take in Troy Slayton. You are the defense attorney, the
12:43
Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney joining us out of l A. How
12:47
Speaker 1: do you defend the use of a shot caller on
12:51
Speaker 1: a little girl. You certainly can't. You can't defend the indefensible.
12:55
Speaker 1: So in a case like this, you're simply looking to
12:59
Speaker 1: make the best deal for your client and spare his life.
13:04
Speaker 1: And so in this case you're trying to find any
13:07
Speaker 1: mitigating circumstances. There anything possible in the case. Uh So
13:13
Speaker 1: you can structure a plea deal, a plea bargain, as
13:17
Speaker 1: it's known. Two. So that way that your client um
13:21
Speaker 1: has is spared the pain of a trial and opens
13:28
Speaker 1: up the possibility that he could be paroled at some
13:31
Speaker 1: point in the future. You know, it's just just hurting
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Speaker 1: me to hear you even say paroled someday in the future.
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Speaker 1: We were talking about Abbe Hernandez, a fourteen year old
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Speaker 1: school girl tortured, horribly, repeatedly sex assaulted in a shipping container,
13:50
Speaker 1: held for nine months. The reality is Cheryl McCullum, director
13:55
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, the fact that she
14:00
Speaker 1: survived is the miracle after the first week. Statistically she
14:05
Speaker 1: should have been dead. No question that in and of
14:08
Speaker 1: itself is a miracle. But I'm gonna tell you something.
14:10
Speaker 1: While the defense attorney is going out trying to figure
14:13
Speaker 1: out a mitigating circumstance to get his hunt to best deal,
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Speaker 1: if this were my case, I'd be hit in the
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Speaker 1: streets talking to every prostitute I can find to tell
14:21
Speaker 1: me stories about this guy. I'll be going to every
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Speaker 1: six shop in that town finding out stories about this guy.
14:27
Speaker 1: He didn't go from zero to the shipping container to
14:31
Speaker 1: kidnapping this child with a shock caller. There are stories
14:35
Speaker 1: all over the place about this guy, and I would
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Speaker 1: get every one of them, every single one. Cheryl McCollum
14:43
Speaker 1: to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. She's right, this guy didn't
14:48
Speaker 1: go from zero to to fifty uh mph, just like that.
14:52
Speaker 1: He's got to have a history before he did this. Wendy,
14:55
Speaker 1: you bet, and I'm gonna say amen, Cheryl. You know
14:58
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of incidents out there that the prosecution
15:01
Speaker 1: can find, although they didn't need to in this case
15:04
Speaker 1: because after he let her go by the way, not
15:06
Speaker 1: out of the grace of his heart, but because he
15:08
Speaker 1: thought the police were going to raid his home. You
15:11
Speaker 1: talk about mitigating circumstances, which Troy has to that's his
15:14
Speaker 1: role in the case. But in terms of aggravating circumstances,
15:17
Speaker 1: the duration, the length of time, the sophistication, the shock collar,
15:21
Speaker 1: all of the extent to which he took and that's
15:24
Speaker 1: another reason. You know, he didn't go from zero to
15:26
Speaker 1: the shipping container. All of that they can put together,
15:29
Speaker 1: including whatever they can find in the community. It is
15:32
Speaker 1: a miracle he didn't get ten tho life sentences out
15:36
Speaker 1: of this case. But I think we can all rest
15:37
Speaker 1: easy that he will not be paroles Well do you
15:39
Speaker 1: think he won't? Right? But remember remember I'm so often.
15:44
Speaker 1: For instance, Charles Manson at the time was going to
15:48
Speaker 1: get the death penalty, but then suddenly, whoops, they reversed it.
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Speaker 1: So he managed to live out his life basically dying
15:54
Speaker 1: from old age. After having Internet relationships and money making
15:59
Speaker 1: machine Sheen, celebrity visitors, the works. Things happened. I fully
16:07
Speaker 1: believe he could easily be paroled in a number of years.
16:10
Speaker 1: And what threw a lot of people off was that
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Speaker 1: she was caught. She Abby, the little girl was caught
16:17
Speaker 1: on security surveillance video at her mom's home walking in
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Speaker 1: the front door looking like everything was okay. In fact,
16:27
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it right now. There she is. She's
16:30
Speaker 1: dressed in a striped top and dark boots. She's holding
16:34
Speaker 1: her hand up to her mouth, which is a uh as.
16:38
Speaker 1: She's walking alone, which is a sign of fear or
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Speaker 1: shock or trepidation. And she's walking along a short path
16:45
Speaker 1: that leads up to the doorstep of her home in Hampshire.
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Speaker 1: People saw that and went, oh, she just went out,
16:51
Speaker 1: she's been on a walk about, she ran away and
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Speaker 1: now she's home. But Cheryl McCullum, you're right. He let
16:59
Speaker 1: her go for a reason that s ob He did
17:02
Speaker 1: not want to get caught and think about after nine
17:06
Speaker 1: months of torture physically, sexually, mentally, psychologically. He has been
17:13
Speaker 1: messing with her for nine months, four hours a day.
17:18
Speaker 1: She's probably almost walking up to that door in a fog,
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Speaker 1: like is this real? Am I really going to be safe?
17:24
Speaker 1: Am I really going to be in my own house
17:25
Speaker 1: with my mom in my own bedroom. She was probably stunned.
17:30
Speaker 1: You know, I'm trying to take in what really happened
17:32
Speaker 1: to her. Dr William Moroney with me, very well known
17:37
Speaker 1: medical examiner joining us the author of a brand new
17:40
Speaker 1: book on Amazon American Narkan Dr Moroney. She was thin,
17:48
Speaker 1: she looked emaciated. It's like she had been a po w,
17:53
Speaker 1: a prisoner of war. Dr Maroney. That's exactly what happens
17:57
Speaker 1: to the body in prisoner of war camps from World
18:01
Speaker 1: War two a way through Southeast Asia. What you have
18:06
Speaker 1: is a lack of access of good exercises causes muscle atrophy.
18:11
Speaker 1: People lose their tone, and you can never keep up
18:15
Speaker 1: a good calorie count, so you lose weight in general,
18:20
Speaker 1: and then the body begins to burn fat because you
18:25
Speaker 1: don't have enough calories. Then you get sunken eyes, you
18:30
Speaker 1: you lose um, good, solid, healthy round facial features. Now
18:36
Speaker 1: these can all come back with exercise and a good diet.
18:41
Speaker 1: But it's a very common syndrome that we saw all
18:45
Speaker 1: the way through. Most likely it's it's dramatized by some
18:50
Speaker 1: of the pictures we saw from Auschwitz. People lose body fat,
18:55
Speaker 1: people lose muscle, then they're weak, they have poor posture,
19:00
Speaker 1: and don't forget the internal organs they're suffering because you're
19:05
Speaker 1: not eating well. And where's the sunshine and the fresh air,
19:12
Speaker 1: and how about cleaneliness. You lose the opportunity to have
19:17
Speaker 1: a natural um biological just kind of good healthy bacteria
19:25
Speaker 1: on you, the good stuff that keeps the bad stuff away,
19:29
Speaker 1: So you're prone to disease. You're prone to infections, fungal infections,
19:34
Speaker 1: yeast infections, bladder infections, skin infections, so all sorts of
19:40
Speaker 1: things go wrong and you don't have an immune system
19:43
Speaker 1: to fight back. It was during an interview that Abigail
19:47
Speaker 1: Hernandez told detectives from the Conway Police Department and New
19:51
Speaker 1: Hampshire State Police that it was Nathaniel Kibbey that helder captive.
19:55
Speaker 1: According to the affidavit, Abigail told detectives that at one
19:59
Speaker 1: point during her confinement, Kimby quote handed her a cookbook
20:03
Speaker 1: that had the name Nate Kibby written inside, and he
20:07
Speaker 1: also provided her with a ruler that had the initials
20:11
Speaker 1: N E K written on it. Abby says she used
20:15
Speaker 1: paper from a notebook and was given a pen so
20:17
Speaker 1: she could write a letter to her mother and her boyfriend.
20:20
Speaker 1: When asked by detectives if she could provide more details
20:24
Speaker 1: about where she was being held, Abigail quote remembered seeing
20:28
Speaker 1: a framed copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on
20:31
Speaker 1: the wall a leopard print blanket on the bed. At
20:35
Speaker 1: the end of the interview, detectives presented a photo lineup
20:39
Speaker 1: of eight men that included a photo of Kimby. The
20:42
Speaker 1: affidavit says she immediately picked out Nathaniel Kimby without hesitation,
20:48
Speaker 1: and that she broke down emotionally and said she was
20:52
Speaker 1: percent sure the man in the photo was the man
20:54
Speaker 1: who took her. You're hearing our friends at w m
20:59
Speaker 1: U are detailing what happened after Abby came home and
21:05
Speaker 1: how she revealed to the police who kidnapped her. Okay,
21:09
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just gonna put it out there.
21:12
Speaker 1: I love the Declaration of Independence, and yes it's me
21:15
Speaker 1: that carries around a pocket copy of the Constitution. But
21:19
Speaker 1: you know what, this freak had the Declaration of Independence
21:23
Speaker 1: framed on his wall. That tells me a lot about him.
21:27
Speaker 1: But hey, I'm just a j D. You're the psychoanalyst
21:31
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall out of l a way in Well.
21:35
Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty ironic to the Declaration of
21:38
Speaker 1: Independence on his wall while he's putting a choke caller
21:41
Speaker 1: on a fourteen year old or a shock caller and
21:44
Speaker 1: asking her to call him master. There have to be
21:47
Speaker 1: other people in his life that he had ultimate power over,
21:51
Speaker 1: whether it was a girlfriend, um, a prostitute that he
21:54
Speaker 1: picked up the quite a minute right there, right there.
21:58
Speaker 1: You know he's been with hook I mean, please, I'm
22:02
Speaker 1: telling you, Cheryl McCollum. Dr Bethany's right, he has been
22:06
Speaker 1: uh exerting the same genre of hateful conduct toward hookers.
22:12
Speaker 1: I guarantee you, Cheryl, there's no doubt about it. And
22:16
Speaker 1: I'm telling you some of these women, unfortunately, are not
22:21
Speaker 1: going to come forward. They're not going to call the police.
22:23
Speaker 1: But everyone they might be. Dad, Cheryl, have you thought
22:26
Speaker 1: of that? Absolutely? I will get into that. But again
22:30
Speaker 1: with this guy, I am telling you those were his
22:33
Speaker 1: test humans. Those were his test subjects. He has lived
22:38
Speaker 1: out part of this fantasy repeatedly on women that he paid.
22:43
Speaker 1: Now you see him living it out for real. That's
22:47
Speaker 1: all this is in his Fifty Shades of Perversion. You
22:50
Speaker 1: know to Dr William are only medical examiner and author.
22:53
Speaker 1: Listen to this. He had the Declaration of Independence on
22:56
Speaker 1: his wall framed. Nothing wrong with that, turns out he
23:00
Speaker 1: was a gun nut that believed there would absolutely be
23:05
Speaker 1: a zombie apocalypse. Help me, Dr Maroney, here's the problem
23:10
Speaker 1: with a lot of the people that buy into that genre.
23:14
Speaker 1: I don't know how you're gonna finish that sentence with
23:16
Speaker 1: just one problem. Here's the problem. There's so many problems,
23:20
Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, with this gun zombie A copyn live in
23:24
Speaker 1: this real world, can't follow laws. People feel bored and
23:29
Speaker 1: they look for some television, big style movie lifestyle saving
23:34
Speaker 1: the world fighting zombie. He's delusionals. As a medical person,
23:40
Speaker 1: when you see somebody like this, you look for activities
23:43
Speaker 1: a daily living. Can they function, Do they have a job,
23:46
Speaker 1: do they have friends? Do they pay taxes? And at
23:49
Speaker 1: every level he's probably deficient. The only thing we haven't
23:53
Speaker 1: talked about is is he suffering from rabid substance abuse?
24:01
Speaker 1: Is this guy lost in illicit drawing? Are you making
24:04
Speaker 1: excuses for him? I thought you were on my side, Maroney,
24:08
Speaker 1: because there's tens of thousands of people out there like
24:11
Speaker 1: him that just start locking teenage girls up in boxes.
24:15
Speaker 1: All sorts of people believe this not my neighborhood. But
24:21
Speaker 1: what you're telling me is you think he's got some
24:23
Speaker 1: mental defect. Really you think so. So, if he's got
24:25
Speaker 1: a mental defect, Maroney, how did he manage to keep
24:28
Speaker 1: it a secret for nine months? He kept keeps this
24:31
Speaker 1: girl in a storage container on some secluded property. Nobody
24:37
Speaker 1: could find her. He's right there under their noses. He
24:41
Speaker 1: outsmarted everybody crazy like a fox. This guy isn't crazy, Maroney.
24:46
Speaker 1: It's antisocial personality disorder. He keeps away from other people.
24:51
Speaker 1: It's we're gonna have a hard time finding people that
24:54
Speaker 1: really know him. And in the end, it's isolation instead
24:59
Speaker 1: of cohabitation. If he'd integrated healthy in junior high, in society,
25:06
Speaker 1: in an occupation where he could be normal, pay taxes,
25:10
Speaker 1: have a job, none of this stuff develops. It's when
25:14
Speaker 1: you pull yourself in and you live with a computer
25:17
Speaker 1: screen and you're only on the internet, and you really
25:19
Speaker 1: believe in the stupid zombie garbage. Then you reach out
25:24
Speaker 1: and locked people up in containers because of strange relationships.
25:28
Speaker 1: These are all abnormal relationships at different levels. He may
25:32
Speaker 1: need lifelong, instant institutionalization and therefore never get parole because
25:38
Speaker 1: his brain is so scrambled. It's like a frittata on
25:42
Speaker 1: the south side of Manhattan real thought about it like that.
25:47
Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, Uh, this is where you come in. I say,
25:50
Speaker 1: the guys totally sane. He's just evil. And Troy Slayton,
25:54
Speaker 1: I know you're too sophisticated and educated to believe that
25:58
Speaker 1: there is evil like the devil in this world. But
26:01
Speaker 1: I am telling you, Troy Slaton, there is, and this
26:04
Speaker 1: guy Kibby is the devil. Evil Troy, Is that a
26:10
Speaker 1: defense in the codebook? It's certainly not. But there are
26:15
Speaker 1: there are plenty people that are evil that don't go
26:17
Speaker 1: and do things like this, like Dr Moroney described antisocial behavior.
26:23
Speaker 1: So as a defense attorney, I am looking, like I said,
26:27
Speaker 1: for any anything that could be mitigating, including a potential
26:33
Speaker 1: uh mental defect that would have caused him to engage
26:38
Speaker 1: in this activity. That might provide the opportunity for him
26:42
Speaker 1: to receive mental health assistance while he's incarcerated, so that way,
26:49
Speaker 1: maybe at some point in the future he can be
26:53
Speaker 1: rehabilitated and restored to society. Listen, I noticed on the
27:00
Speaker 1: door there were wires. They were like screws and then wires.
27:06
Speaker 1: And he told me that he tripped the door so
27:08
Speaker 1: that if for any reason it was busted open, the
27:11
Speaker 1: room would catch on fire, so that you couldn't survive
27:14
Speaker 1: if somebody found this, somebody kicked open the door, that
27:17
Speaker 1: I would quickly go up in flames, basically, So there
27:20
Speaker 1: was a lot of psychological intimidation and fear. Here were
27:24
Speaker 1: you on edge all this time? Yeah, I was afraid
27:29
Speaker 1: that the room would set on fire. And there was
27:31
Speaker 1: a camera that was always blinking like a security camera,
27:35
Speaker 1: and I thought he was watching me. That's from our
27:37
Speaker 1: friends at. It was almost like it was a shock,
27:42
Speaker 1: like I had a shutter and I couldn't believe what
27:45
Speaker 1: I was saying. That was such a beautiful moment. She
27:49
Speaker 1: remember just the look on her face. I remember seeing her.
27:52
Speaker 1: She looked different, she really did. I could see stress,
27:58
Speaker 1: those months of stress in her face, and it kind
28:02
Speaker 1: of killed me a little bit. But I was just
28:03
Speaker 1: so relieved to see you are hearing from our friends
28:07
Speaker 1: at David Muir and Amy Roboc That is Abby seeing
28:12
Speaker 1: her mother for the first time. And I'm totally covered
28:15
Speaker 1: in goose bumps right now. Cheryl McCollum. Sometimes I start
28:19
Speaker 1: crying when the twins. My eyes cheer up when the
28:21
Speaker 1: twins come out of school. For me, to pick him up. Okay,
28:24
Speaker 1: can you imagine one of your two beautiful children coming
28:27
Speaker 1: up the Oh, it's too much. And Cheryl, you are
28:32
Speaker 1: the director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Most of
28:35
Speaker 1: your cases you deal with, the parents have never had
28:37
Speaker 1: that moment where the child comes home. It never happens.
28:41
Speaker 1: And then at a miracle, the mom sees like the
28:45
Speaker 1: prodigal son at a distance, she sees her daughter coming
28:49
Speaker 1: up to the front porch. Is the miracle, Nancy, And
28:52
Speaker 1: then you know to say they have that moment, which
28:55
Speaker 1: is just unbelievable. It is absolutely a miracle. And then
28:59
Speaker 1: all of this information comes out about what happened to
29:03
Speaker 1: that child repeatedly every day for nine months in a
29:07
Speaker 1: cargo container, wearing a shot collar, being sex assaulted, raped
29:12
Speaker 1: and beaten every single day. And the ways I want
29:16
Speaker 1: to say one thing about whether or not this guy
29:19
Speaker 1: knew right from wrong. He damn well knew it was
29:21
Speaker 1: wrong because what he thought the police were coming he
29:23
Speaker 1: had to get rid of. He absolutely had the capacity
29:28
Speaker 1: to understand what he was doing was illegal. His action
29:32
Speaker 1: fruit absolutely and that's just where I was head at CHERYLD.
29:37
Speaker 1: Thank you, John Limley, and all cracked wide open because
29:41
Speaker 1: of another girl. This is why Abby Hernandez was released
29:45
Speaker 1: and probably why she's alive right now. A young girl
29:47
Speaker 1: that had fallen in with the wrong craft and they
29:49
Speaker 1: go party at a local hotel for the weekend, and
29:53
Speaker 1: she decides to go onto a dating website. And she
29:56
Speaker 1: goes on to a dating website and who should show
29:59
Speaker 1: up to her her hotel room but Nathaniel Kimby And
30:04
Speaker 1: then what happened? Give it to me in a nutshell, Limley, Well,
30:07
Speaker 1: this is where two cases come colliding. Lauren Monday did
30:11
Speaker 1: go on this date with Kibby. She knew absolutely nothing
30:15
Speaker 1: about Abby, that he was holding a team captive. And
30:19
Speaker 1: it all came down to Monday using counterfeit money that
30:23
Speaker 1: Kimby had given her. So Kibby leaves a couple of
30:26
Speaker 1: fifties when he leaves, and she tries to use him
30:28
Speaker 1: at Walmart. The next day, she's picked up for counterfeit money.
30:32
Speaker 1: And she's so mad at the guy that left at
30:34
Speaker 1: her date, Jay going by the name Jay, so she
30:38
Speaker 1: calls him and blesses him out on her cell phone.
30:42
Speaker 1: And that's when Kimby, as Troy Slateman, have you believe
30:45
Speaker 1: is insane? Thought? Oh, no, She's called me on my
30:48
Speaker 1: cell phone. Cops are gonna come here, and he lets
30:51
Speaker 1: Abby go. Let's Abby go. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. You
30:58
Speaker 1: know what, the truth is ranger than fiction, right? Oh?
31:01
Speaker 1: Amen to that as well. Not only is the truth
31:03
Speaker 1: stranger than fiction, but one of the reasons that this
31:06
Speaker 1: is such an inspirational story in retrospect is you talk
31:09
Speaker 1: about evil, you also talk about good and the what
31:12
Speaker 1: this woman did, This young woman, this brave young woman
31:14
Speaker 1: who prayed every single day and actually, according to some
31:18
Speaker 1: of whom have looked at this in retrospect, was the
31:21
Speaker 1: textbook victim. In terms of talking to this guy. This
31:24
Speaker 1: is another thing that belies the notion that he was
31:27
Speaker 1: insane or mentally deranged. In some sense, actually had the
31:31
Speaker 1: wherewithal to bond with this guy. He knew what he
31:33
Speaker 1: was doing. She became a sort of trusted confidante to
31:37
Speaker 1: the extent that he gave her books to read, one
31:40
Speaker 1: of which had his name in it. So you talk
31:42
Speaker 1: about resourcefulness. Also, this also goes to the aggravating circumstances
31:47
Speaker 1: that I would argue as a prosecutor. He knew exactly
31:49
Speaker 1: what he was doing. The entire time he held her captive,
31:52
Speaker 1: and that is one of the things that will be
31:54
Speaker 1: considered and was considered in his sentencing. You know, Dr
31:56
Speaker 1: William Rowney, um estaimed medical examiner and author of a
32:01
Speaker 1: brand new book on Amazon American arcan Dr Maroney. You
32:05
Speaker 1: know they don't like you to talk about this on TV,
32:08
Speaker 1: but I can tell you this much, and I think
32:10
Speaker 1: you'll agree with me. It wasn't just resourcefulness. It was
32:14
Speaker 1: a miracle. This girl did pray every day that she
32:20
Speaker 1: would be free to see her mother again, and she
32:24
Speaker 1: was delivered. I firmly believe that, Dr Maroney. Sometimes you
32:29
Speaker 1: have to admit what breaks down in everyday life is
32:33
Speaker 1: we have good and evil, and we have choices. We
32:37
Speaker 1: can make it take us down one path or another.
32:41
Speaker 1: Her salvation was her faith. His reprehensible sick behavior is
32:50
Speaker 1: the consequence of evil. Clearly, whether it's medicine, science, law, entertainment,
33:00
Speaker 1: every day everything breaks down. Do we have choices between
33:05
Speaker 1: good and evil? Now some people want to soften that
33:08
Speaker 1: a little, between good and bad. I only think it
33:12
Speaker 1: comes down to good and evil. I'm gonna take Dr
33:15
Speaker 1: William Moroney's ethical philosophizing, with which I agree. I'm going
33:19
Speaker 1: right back down the crapper with Dr Bethany Marshall. Okay,
33:22
Speaker 1: here we are, Dr Bethany, as we have been so
33:24
Speaker 1: many times before. You know, what's interesting about what you
33:27
Speaker 1: said earlier, You know, you and I we get right
33:30
Speaker 1: down in the mud. Okay, Dr Bethany. What you said
33:33
Speaker 1: earlier about the sato messochistic aspect of how he could
33:37
Speaker 1: only enjoy being with her if he were hurting her.
33:43
Speaker 1: When he was with Lauren Monday, they fell asleep cuddling
33:47
Speaker 1: and there was no sex right probably because he couldn't
33:52
Speaker 1: he couldn't get an erection. He couldn't, he couldn't maintain
33:55
Speaker 1: an erection and arousal unless he's inflicting cruelty on someone.
34:00
Speaker 1: So there there's actually a very specific reason for this,
34:02
Speaker 1: and the idea is that sociopaths have inner deadness or boredom.
34:07
Speaker 1: Dr William Moroney used the word a board earlier in
34:10
Speaker 1: the show when he was talking about you know tibbitts Our.
34:12
Speaker 1: Ma'm sorry, um Nathaniel's preoccupation with zombies and he was
34:18
Speaker 1: a gun nut. But so we know that they have
34:20
Speaker 1: inner deadness boredom. They can't experience excitement in the normal ways,
34:25
Speaker 1: whether it's sexual arousal or just the excitement of being alive.
34:28
Speaker 1: They can't just look at a flower, watch a movie,
34:31
Speaker 1: enjoy their relationships. The deadness leads them to a psychic
34:36
Speaker 1: situation where they use cruelty, sadism, um, aggression, and seeing
34:43
Speaker 1: fear in the eyes of the other in order to
34:46
Speaker 1: ride the excitement of the infliction of pain in order
34:50
Speaker 1: to gain that sexual arousal. And so that's why often
34:53
Speaker 1: with sex crimes, I mean, take someone like the beat
34:55
Speaker 1: k killer, there's often not we don't find at the
34:59
Speaker 1: crime scene that semen honor in the body. Often there's
35:03
Speaker 1: either no semen in the room even or the semen
35:07
Speaker 1: is deposited somewhere completely away from the body because they're
35:12
Speaker 1: so they're so busy inflicting the pain that the normal
35:15
Speaker 1: type of sexual interaction never even occurs. It's like they
35:18
Speaker 1: masturbate in frustration, maybe hours after the infliction of cruelty,
35:24
Speaker 1: but they cannot have normal ejaculation while with the victims. Okay,
35:28
Speaker 1: Down in the Mud with Dr Bethany, you know that
35:30
Speaker 1: sounds like a great podcast. Down in the Mud with
35:32
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany. Guys, I am amazed to say that there
35:38
Speaker 1: is a happy ending. Listen. There were no cars coming
35:41
Speaker 1: either way, and he said get out, So I got out,
35:46
Speaker 1: and then he yelled, give me my hat back, give
35:48
Speaker 1: me my hat back. I took the hat off, I
35:50
Speaker 1: threw it in the car, slammed the door, and he
35:52
Speaker 1: drove off, just like that, Just like that, that was it.
35:58
Speaker 1: I remember looking up in Las laughing, just being so happy, like,
36:03
Speaker 1: oh my god, this actually happened. I'm a free person.
36:08
Speaker 1: I never thought it would happen to me, but I'm free.
36:12
Speaker 1: And I just walked home, just never before seeing footage
36:16
Speaker 1: of Abby returning home caught on the family security camera.
36:20
Speaker 1: I remember when I came up to my doorstep. I
36:23
Speaker 1: could hear my mom talking on the phone. I could
36:25
Speaker 1: hear her voice opening the door and I said, Mom,
36:29
Speaker 1: I remember she said Abby, and remember she ran out.
36:33
Speaker 1: It was almost like it was a shock, like I
36:36
Speaker 1: had a shutter and I couldn't believe what I was saying.
36:40
Speaker 1: That was such a beautiful moment, she remembered. Just to
36:43
Speaker 1: look on her face, I remember seeing her, and she
36:46
Speaker 1: looked different, she really did. I could see stress, those
36:52
Speaker 1: months of stress in her face, and it kind of
36:56
Speaker 1: killed me a little bit, but I was just so
36:57
Speaker 1: relieved to see her from our ends at ABC's twenty
37:02
Speaker 1: well a miracle. Abbey is alive and Kimby is behind
37:08
Speaker 1: bars for a very long time. All I can say
37:12
Speaker 1: is p t L. Nancy graces Crime Story, signing off
37:17
Speaker 1: goodbye friend.