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ECLIPSE: archetype of awe, wonder, and triumph · This Jungian Life Podcast

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
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Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
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Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
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Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day. I'm
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Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
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Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
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Speaker 3: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
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Speaker 2: Hello, everybody. Today, we are going to talk about the eclipse,
0:42
Speaker 2: which makes perfect sense. Lisa has gone down to Texas
0:47
Speaker 2: to watch the eclipse, and our video engineer, Jano, has
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Speaker 2: also gone down to watch the eclipse, so it seems
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Speaker 2: that the power of the eclipse is thrumming through our
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Speaker 2: little community, and of course, it's captured the imagination of
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Speaker 2: so many millions of people, and we thought we would
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Speaker 2: just walk around that and talk about it for a
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Speaker 2: little bit.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. That's what, to me, is so compelling, is that
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Speaker 3: this event has captured the attention, the imagination, energy of so,
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Speaker 3: so many people that they want to go, they want
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Speaker 3: to be in the path, they want to witness it.
1:34
Speaker 3: And we're not witnessing it, Joseph, you and I.
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Speaker 2: What does that say about us, perhaps? Which is another problem, maybe.
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Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness. That we're somehow missing this opportunity to
1:48
Speaker 3: access the numinous. Although I am curious about how numinous
1:56
Speaker 3: this is. What a compelling event it is. to have
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Speaker 3: the world blacked out for a total of eight minutes,
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Speaker 3: I think.
2:09
Speaker 2: I think that the total eclipse is something rather brief.
2:12
Speaker 2: But of course, all the excitement leading up to it
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Speaker 2: and the collective tension about what this means.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. It is a celestial event that overtakes everything in
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Speaker 3: its path. The plants... the animals, birds return to their roosts,
2:35
Speaker 3: bees return to their hives. And this man named Daniel Beverly,
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Speaker 3: who was, I think, a postdoc student in 2017, he
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Speaker 3: measured plant leaves, sagebrush leaves, and he could tell that
2:52
Speaker 3: they showed signs of stress when the eclipse occurred, that
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Speaker 3: everything living knows that this is out of pattern and
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Speaker 3: that it is threatening, that darkness is not expected at
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Speaker 3: this time and it's not okay. You know, this celestial
3:15
Speaker 3: event unifies us, doesn't it? That we take the sun
3:21
Speaker 3: for granted and it shows up every day. And then
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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, it doesn't. And we are all
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Speaker 3: caught in that experience. The world turned upside down, plunged
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Speaker 3: into darkness during the daytime.
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Speaker 2: And if we imagine living in an ancient world where
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Speaker 2: it may happen very, very, very infrequently where we live,
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Speaker 2: I mean, right now people can fly and drive hours
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Speaker 2: and hours. They know when it's going to happen. But
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Speaker 2: 500 years ago, you may have never seen an eclipse.
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Speaker 2: Or if it happened, it would have happened maybe once
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Speaker 2: in a lifetime. And as much as it would happen
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Speaker 2: as a total eclipse right where you live, where it
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Speaker 2: can be visible. And with lack of astronomic information, it
4:17
Speaker 2: would come upon you suddenly. I mean, there you were
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Speaker 2: working in a field, middle of the day, and all
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Speaker 2: of a sudden, the birds are acting strange, the animals
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Speaker 2: are strange, the light is changing in the sky, the
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Speaker 2: shadows apparently do very, very strange things, and your vision
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Speaker 2: experiences all kinds of distortions. And then all of a sudden,
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Speaker 2: for those eight minutes, this shocking, perhaps even terrifying, has
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Speaker 2: occurred without explanation.
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Speaker 3: And I can imagine that it would be terrifying. One
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Speaker 3: of the little historical facts I uncovered was that in
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Speaker 3: ancient Greece, somewhere around 600 BC, the Lydians and the
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Speaker 3: Medes had been at war for some number of years
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Speaker 3: and there was a solar eclipse and And they were
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Speaker 3: all so stricken by this, of the awesome power of
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Speaker 3: it and being plunged into darkness, that the meaning that
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Speaker 3: they made of it was that they just had to
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Speaker 3: make peace, that the gods had appeared and interfered. And
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Speaker 3: if a celestial event of this magnitude could take place,
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Speaker 3: that human concerns about human enemies and Being at war
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Speaker 3: somehow had to come to an end in, pardon the
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Speaker 3: pun here, in the light of such darkness that petty
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Speaker 3: human concerns and warfare had to stop.
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Speaker 2: And that goes to that really deep feeling that we
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Speaker 2: have that there is a relationship between the microcosm and
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Speaker 2: the macrocosm.
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Speaker 3: Exactly.
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Speaker 2: Exactly. What's happening in the heavens echoes in what's happening
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Speaker 2: in human beings. But here, what's happening in human beings
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Speaker 2: is echoing somewhere in the realm of the gods. And consequently,
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Speaker 2: this massive sense of responsibility that then emerges.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like that, Joseph. And it touches on
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Speaker 3: the alchemical mantra of as above, so below. As below,
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Speaker 3: so above. that there's resonance between, let's say, individual human
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Speaker 3: beings or plants and Earth, us as individuals, and the stars,
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Speaker 3: the movements of the planets. We affect each other, that
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Speaker 3: there are parallel processes. So when the solar eclipse comes,
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Speaker 3: what does it mean for you as an individual or
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Speaker 3: for me? Because we're connected. to the cosmos.
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Speaker 2: I think that's the instinctive draw to astrology. And even
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Speaker 2: people that don't think of themselves as particularly new age,
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Speaker 2: quote unquote, they're sitting down reading the morning paper and
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Speaker 2: you just can't quite resist going to the astrology section and,
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Speaker 2: and hoping even that something that's happening in the heavens
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Speaker 2: has some resonance to my personal, um, behavior that day,
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Speaker 2: to the magic that's going to happen to me as
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Speaker 2: I'm going about the business of my life.
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Speaker 3: Well, we get, and Jung certainly got with his theory
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Speaker 3: of synchronicity, you know, we get that we're part of
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Speaker 3: a bigger field. We get that there are connections. Sometimes
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Speaker 3: we can't totally explain them, but I think an event
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Speaker 3: like this solar eclipse brings us close to something astonishing
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Speaker 3: in its magnitude, of that the sun in the course
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Speaker 3: of its journey across the sky, the Greeks had Phaeton
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Speaker 3: pulling a chariot with the sun hitched to it across
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Speaker 3: the sky. that something amazing is happening that has awe
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Speaker 3: in it, even though we now know all the science, right? Oh,
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Speaker 3: this is because of this and this, and the trajectories are,
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Speaker 3: and we can plot it down actually to the second,
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Speaker 3: that it still catches us up in something greater, right?
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Speaker 3: And I'm so curious about what people have written about
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Speaker 3: witnessing an eclipse of how eerie it is that people
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Speaker 3: look like those old photographs of sepia-tinted photographs. Things look
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Speaker 3: tinny is the word that's used. So our perception of
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Speaker 3: everything is distorted. And what is the connection between transcendence, reverence, wonder, awe, dread,
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Speaker 3: and terror, and the uncanny. They're all wrapped up in
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Speaker 3: this experience that people are traveling in order to experience themselves.
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Speaker 2: And that speaks to something about the modern psyche, that
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Speaker 2: we're so exposed to images and experiences and In a way.
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Speaker 2: I mean, we can type into YouTube videos of previous eclipses.
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Speaker 2: and we can watch them and then trick ourselves into thinking, oh, well,
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Speaker 2: now we know what that's like, because we have some
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Speaker 2: kind of imagistic representation. We can know so much about everything,
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Speaker 2: maybe anything that's going on on the planet, which gives
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Speaker 2: us a sense that The ordinary has infested all things.
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Speaker 2: And the danger of that is that it tricks the
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Speaker 2: ego into thinking that it is the master of all
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Speaker 2: things because it can dispassionately catch a glimpse of all things.
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Speaker 2: And yet something inside of the soul wants the ego
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Speaker 2: to experience awe. wants it to be in right relationship
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Speaker 2: to things that are larger than it. And this goes to,
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Speaker 2: I think what you were pointing to a moment ago, Deb,
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Speaker 2: the enormous amount of energy that people have right now
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Speaker 2: to travel down to Texas so that they can be
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Speaker 2: right there, right in the right spot to have this experience.
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Speaker 2: There's many dimensions, but this feeling of awe which I
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Speaker 2: think is respect and fear and wonder, all in a moment.
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Speaker 2: And how rare that is. As we're talking about it,
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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the first moment that I ever experienced awe,
11:36
Speaker 2: which came upon me very surprisingly. I was in my
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Speaker 2: early 30s, and it was not something that I thought
11:46
Speaker 2: too much about, but I was really delving into Jung's work, reading,
11:50
Speaker 2: and just really beginning to think deeply about it. I
11:55
Speaker 2: had occasion to go to the West Coast with a
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Speaker 2: friend of mine, and we were driving down the coast,
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Speaker 2: and we just stopped fairly early on in the process
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Speaker 2: and came to the edge of a West Coast beach,
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Speaker 2: the Pacific Ocean.
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Speaker 3: And the.
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Speaker 2: Unbelievable violence of the ocean, which I had never seen
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Speaker 2: having been raised on the Atlantic. The power, the crashing
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Speaker 2: of the waves, the deafening sound, seeing the seals, the
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Speaker 2: heads of the seals bobbing in and out of the waves,
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Speaker 2: it just knocked the breath out of me for a
12:38
Speaker 2: minute or so. And I had this feeling that The
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Speaker 2: ocean could kill me, which had never occurred to me
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Speaker 2: as a child being raised on the water. And this
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Speaker 2: combination of respect and fear and wonder for the power
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Speaker 2: of this moment, this natural force, it just made me gasp.
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Speaker 3: There is something here about accessing the infinite through the
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Speaker 3: power of nature, which is as old as man, of
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Speaker 3: man ascending mountains to get closer to something transcendent. The
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Speaker 3: power of the Pacific Ocean that is so wild that
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Speaker 3: and crashing. I understand. I was raised on the Atlantic too,
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Speaker 3: and I was like, holy cow, this isn't what I
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Speaker 3: was expecting when the first time I saw the Pacific Ocean,
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Speaker 3: which is far from Pacific. So there is something here
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Speaker 3: about the power of nature to reflect and evidence and
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Speaker 3: give us an experience of the infinite. And Jung says,
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Speaker 3: and I'm quoting from his memoir, Memories, Dreams, and Reflections,
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Speaker 3: the decisive question for man is, is he related to
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Speaker 3: something infinite or not? That is the telling question of
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Speaker 3: his life. Only if we can know that the thing
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Speaker 3: which truly matters is the infinite can we avoid fixing
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Speaker 3: our interest upon futility's and upon all kinds of goals
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Speaker 3: which are not of real importance. He writes this in
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Speaker 3: a chapter, Late Thoughts and Life After Death, you know,
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Speaker 3: after his very, very long life and in his late years,
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Speaker 3: that this is what he writes as the key question
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Speaker 3: for man. And we have intimations of it when we
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Speaker 3: see the ocean or an eclipse, that something can catch
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Speaker 3: us up in it, that there is other, that we
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Speaker 3: live within it. I mean, if you're in the path
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Speaker 3: of the eclipse, you will be witness to it. You
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Speaker 3: will be inside it, so to speak. something greater will
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Speaker 3: have your full being in its grasp.
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Speaker 2: At least that is the hope.
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Speaker 3: Yes.
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Speaker 2: That there's something, there's an instinct inside of us to
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Speaker 2: want and to hope that that will happen, even in
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Speaker 2: this age of enormous rationality since the age of enlightenment.
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Speaker 2: And we've benefited greatly, of course, by moving away from superstition,
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Speaker 2: let's say in medicine, to be able to stop bloodletting
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Speaker 2: as a primary tool of treatment and expanding science into
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Speaker 2: all of these areas. And yet we've lost something that
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Speaker 2: the world used to be enchanted and our rationality has
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Speaker 2: disenchanted our lives. In some ways that's helped us, of course,
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Speaker 2: And yet, what is it that people are hoping for
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Speaker 2: to be right there in the path of this total eclipse?
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Speaker 2: And what I think we were saying is the possibility
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Speaker 2: of the re-enchantment of at least those eight minutes, that
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Speaker 2: the universe can be spectacular, amazing, be full of feeling
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Speaker 2: rather than just full of thinking.
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Speaker 3: I think you've really hit on something very important. I
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Speaker 3: like your word, enchantment, of the feelings of awe and
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Speaker 3: wonder and dread and all that. And it takes me
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Speaker 3: to the dance. What is the dance between science and enchantment? Wonder, awe, feeling,
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Speaker 3: being part of something greater. Because If we reduce everything
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Speaker 3: to a series of calculations of, you know, here's the
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Speaker 3: path and here's the time that the eclipse will be
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Speaker 3: there in your area to a hilltop near you, it's
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Speaker 3: simply science. It's simply fact versus the feeling of enchantment.
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Speaker 3: I am part of something greater. I am part of
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Speaker 3: a mystery. And we want to feel awe, wonder, mystery.
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Speaker 3: We want that feeling. And I think science and all
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Speaker 3: our technology and machines, we live so far from nature,
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Speaker 3: most of us. And that is our original source of enchantment.
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Speaker 3: There was a time when The trees spoke, and we
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Speaker 3: had totem animals, and the world around us was alive.
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Speaker 2: And we have memories of this as children, the fact
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Speaker 2: that children play with dolls. And when we're very, very young,
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Speaker 2: we have a feeling of certainty that your doll needs
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Speaker 2: to be fed, or it needs to be tucked in
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Speaker 2: next to you, that your doll is feeling something. in
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Speaker 2: some fashion. I mean, that's that primary instinct inside of
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Speaker 2: us to ensoul the world around us and to make
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Speaker 2: it in some way responsive to humanity. And I think
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Speaker 2: with the idea of the doll, that these seemingly inanimate
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Speaker 2: objects also need things from us. And so one of
19:11
Speaker 2: the things that Jung writes about is that when he
19:16
Speaker 2: was in his investigations and meeting with various shamans, he
19:22
Speaker 2: had a conversation with one who said that part of
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Speaker 2: the responsibility of the tribe was to help the sun
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Speaker 2: rise each morning and that something catastrophic would likely happen.
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Speaker 2: Very much the way a child thinks, my doll needs
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Speaker 2: to be fed and kept warm and needs to be tended.
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Speaker 2: And that's another side of that miraculous magic that people feel.
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Speaker 2: that not only are we reliant on the sun but
19:54
Speaker 2: the sun may be reliant on us and there are
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Speaker 2: some accounts in ancient manuscripts that during an eclipse people
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Speaker 2: might fire arrows yes into the eclipse because some demonic
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Speaker 2: force was attacking the sun and everyone in the tribe
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Speaker 2: needed to help defend the integrity and the life of
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Speaker 2: the sun.
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Speaker 3: Yes, there are accounts of that. And of course, there
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Speaker 3: are so many myths around the world of the sun
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Speaker 3: being eaten during an eclipse of Biogen. a dragon or
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Speaker 3: a frog or a jaguar, or I think there's quite
20:37
Speaker 3: a list of something, the sun being devoured, an image
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Speaker 3: of the light of consciousness, life itself, that we are
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Speaker 3: in relationship to it. You know that if you You'll
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Speaker 3: go out and try to defend against it. You'll shoot
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Speaker 3: arrows to kill the demon that has swallowed the sun.
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Speaker 3: That is living in an ensouled world. And I don't
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Speaker 3: think it's possible to have an ensouled relationship with an
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Speaker 3: iPad or a phone or social media. Somehow I think
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Speaker 3: those things... lack the inherent capacity of imagination and wonder
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Speaker 3: versus something like this eclipse, which calls so many people
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Speaker 3: to an experience of wonder and awe and feeling part of.
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Speaker 3: So we need a relationship. That's what it boils down to.
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Speaker 3: We need a relationship with the world and with Our
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Speaker 3: own souls feeling part of, feeling touched, feeling.
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Speaker 2: And I think as you're talking about needing the relationship,
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Speaker 2: is that we need a true encounter, not the fantasy
22:08
Speaker 2: of an encounter.
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Speaker 3: Oh, that's exactly.
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Speaker 2: So, I mean, people have these internet affairs with people
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Speaker 2: that they've never met through emails or texting, which is
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Speaker 2: the fantasy of a relationship or the fantasy of an encounter. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Or even the fantasy of the eclipse.
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Speaker 3: Yes.
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Speaker 2: So I understand that people, they want to drive to
22:28
Speaker 2: that first date with the moon. They're just texting. Texting
22:33
Speaker 2: the moon is not going to really cut it. You've
22:36
Speaker 2: got to drive down to Texas and you've got to
22:38
Speaker 2: meet the experience head on. And then, as you were saying,
22:43
Speaker 2: through the lived experience, that's where the relationship is possible,
22:49
Speaker 2: as it is between two people. Mm-hmm. I was thinking
22:53
Speaker 2: about this idea of eating. A couple of little fun facts.
22:58
Speaker 2: The Chinese idiogram for the eclipse is the same idiogram
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Speaker 2: for the word eat. So I think there's something very
23:11
Speaker 2: alive in that image of the moon impinging on the
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Speaker 2: sunlight and to fantasize that something dark and mysterious is
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Speaker 2: taking bites. of the Sun until it's just a crescent
23:26
Speaker 2: and then finally is simply a black circle ringed with fire.
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Speaker 3: Another sort of fact that I uncovered is that because
23:40
Speaker 3: of the size of our Moon, and the Sun and
23:45
Speaker 3: its distance from the Earth, we have the opportunity to
23:50
Speaker 3: see a total eclipse. The Sun can be completely blocked
23:56
Speaker 3: out by the Moon, which is 400 times bigger. That
24:00
Speaker 3: is some 400 light years away from the Sun. But
24:05
Speaker 3: the math works out perfectly that it wouldn't be a
24:09
Speaker 3: total eclipse unless the distances and sizes change. of sun, moon,
24:14
Speaker 3: and earth made it possible. So who knows? We may
24:18
Speaker 3: be somewhat unique, at least in this universe, in even
24:22
Speaker 3: being able to have a total eclipse. So I'm curious
24:28
Speaker 3: as to the psychological parallels in what gets eclipsed in us. How,
24:39
Speaker 3: when do we experience an eclipse with the sun as
24:44
Speaker 3: the solar principle of light and consciousness? And it's long
24:50
Speaker 3: been a symbol of light and consciousness. And then comes
24:55
Speaker 3: the night when things are dark and things slither around
24:58
Speaker 3: in the dark. That's long been a symbol for the unconscious.
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Speaker 2: So in alchemy, there is a not well-known image called
25:08
Speaker 2: the the sole Niger or the black sun. Hmm. And
25:13
Speaker 2: it shows up occasionally. I believe in the splendor solace,
25:16
Speaker 2: which is one of the alchemical texts on a somewhat
25:20
Speaker 2: barren landscape. There is this very somber image of a
25:26
Speaker 2: sun with rays coming out from the back of it. Clearly,
25:32
Speaker 2: I think in a naturalistic interpretation, it is the eclipsed sun.
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Speaker 3: Hmm.
25:39
Speaker 2: And even apparently as we look at the Sun when
25:44
Speaker 2: the eclipse is in its fullness, and apparently one can
25:48
Speaker 2: safely look right into the phenomena when the Moon is
25:52
Speaker 2: totally covering the Sun, and there seems to be these strands,
25:57
Speaker 2: these strange strands of light that are emitted around the
26:04
Speaker 2: shadow of the Moon. But of course it looks like
26:08
Speaker 2: the black sun is emitting a secret light. And the
26:13
Speaker 2: alchemists call that the lux occulta, the hidden light. In
26:20
Speaker 2: one sense, that's true. Even astronomically, when the moon totally
26:27
Speaker 2: eclipses the sun, that there are phenomena of light that
26:31
Speaker 2: we normally wouldn't see, including suddenly the stars become visible,
26:36
Speaker 2: planets that are nearby suddenly become visible. visible in the
26:40
Speaker 2: middle of the day and light seems to rise up
26:43
Speaker 2: from the horizon as the reflected light from a distance
26:47
Speaker 2: continues to bounce off of the earth and a number
26:50
Speaker 2: of other things. But the idea that in the midst
26:53
Speaker 2: of darkness, there is a secret light that is only
26:58
Speaker 2: visible when the sun is eclipsed. And so when we
27:05
Speaker 2: think about, just as you were saying, the kinds of
27:08
Speaker 2: psychological things that can eclipse the light. And we were equating,
27:13
Speaker 2: or you were equating, that light is often associated with
27:17
Speaker 2: consciousness and with the ego because when there's light, let's say,
27:21
Speaker 2: in the room, we can perceive what's in the room.
27:25
Speaker 2: If the room were plunged into absolute darkness, I mean
27:30
Speaker 2: that kind of darkness where you can't even see your
27:31
Speaker 2: hand in front of your face, that Our ability to
27:35
Speaker 2: be aware of the environment is, of course, eliminated for
27:39
Speaker 2: the most part. So it makes sense that light and
27:42
Speaker 2: consciousness would go hand in hand. And so one way
27:47
Speaker 2: we can think about the soul in Nigeria is what
27:51
Speaker 2: happens during a creative depression, that the unconscious reaches up
27:57
Speaker 2: and kind of takes our life force and plunges us
28:02
Speaker 2: into this strange dark. psychological state where often our first
28:08
Speaker 2: impulse is to feel like we're drowning and run to
28:11
Speaker 2: the doctor and get an antidepressant and call our friends
28:15
Speaker 2: and say, listen, take me out on the town. I
28:17
Speaker 2: need to shake off this feeling of darkness in myself.
28:22
Speaker 2: But Jung might have given us better advice saying, there's
28:26
Speaker 2: a secret light in the midst of your depression, which
28:31
Speaker 2: requires you to look very carefully at into new places
28:36
Speaker 2: inside of yourself to see what is suddenly available, perceptible
28:44
Speaker 2: inside of you, which is often potential that you have
28:48
Speaker 2: not noticed before. Because in the light of consciousness, there
28:52
Speaker 2: are so many very subtle things that are happening inside
28:57
Speaker 2: the psyche that are kind of blotted out by the
29:01
Speaker 2: drive and ambition and agenda of the ego when it's
29:05
Speaker 2: in its really solar radiant determination.
29:10
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about what Jung says and what we all
29:14
Speaker 3: know and the darkness of depression and this light that
29:23
Speaker 3: comes through in some mysterious way and that we are
29:27
Speaker 3: simply called to face it. And Jung is very clear
29:35
Speaker 3: about that, that we are called to confront things. that
29:41
Speaker 3: terrify the ego. And I'm thinking about, of course, the eclipse.
29:46
Speaker 3: It's not that way for modern people, but ancient people
29:50
Speaker 3: would have been terrified. And what do you do during
29:53
Speaker 3: the eclipse? Can you bear it? Can you bear the
29:58
Speaker 3: not knowing and all of a sudden darkness comes? Can
30:04
Speaker 3: we simply have the ability to be present when there
30:11
Speaker 3: is an eclipse, an inner eclipse that is psychological? It
30:16
Speaker 3: could be depression. It could be a compulsion, an addiction,
30:21
Speaker 3: a trauma, a complex event. Can we somehow simply face
30:28
Speaker 3: it without thinking we have to defeat it? Because if
30:33
Speaker 3: we literalize it to the eclipse that's taking place today
30:37
Speaker 3: in North America, there's nothing you can do about it.
30:41
Speaker 3: But can we bear to look? Can we bear to
30:45
Speaker 3: be present without collapsing? You know, and I'm thinking about
30:51
Speaker 3: Jung's answer to Job. You know, we're at the very
30:56
Speaker 3: end in the biblical story and in Jung's work. Job
31:02
Speaker 3: has the audacity to confront Yahweh and say, hey, you know,
31:08
Speaker 3: in effect, I have been a really good guy. I've
31:11
Speaker 3: been your obedient servant. I've done everything in my power.
31:16
Speaker 3: What gives? Why have all these terrible things happened to me?
31:21
Speaker 3: And the answer, of course, is not an explanation of like, well,
31:24
Speaker 3: you know, here's what I was up to. It's simply
31:28
Speaker 3: Yahweh basically saying, I am greater. Your ego, your mortality
31:35
Speaker 3: cannot question this. It will not fall into these kinds
31:41
Speaker 3: of ego categories of explanations or even morality. It simply is.
31:49
Speaker 3: And I think that's maybe part of what eclipses call
31:53
Speaker 3: on us, inner and outer, is can I bear it?
31:57
Speaker 3: Can I look at it? Can I acknowledge it and
32:02
Speaker 3: still be present? Or will I be cast into simply
32:10
Speaker 3: terror or taken over or lose my sense of self
32:16
Speaker 3: in the face of what's going on?
32:18
Speaker 2: And I think Jung's work with amplification is trying to
32:22
Speaker 2: do just that by at least surmising that all of
32:27
Speaker 2: the things that eclipse the ego, all of the complexes, terrors, traumas,
32:34
Speaker 2: they are organized inside of our souls around an archetypal phenomena,
32:40
Speaker 2: an archetypal structure. And when we really get a sense
32:46
Speaker 2: of of how the archetypes influence us so profoundly, both
32:51
Speaker 2: painfully as well as positively, we might have a sense
32:57
Speaker 2: of the numinosity of what has overtaken us. That the depression,
33:04
Speaker 2: in fact, could be seen as awe-filled, awful, as the eclipse,
33:13
Speaker 2: the death of humanity. a beloved one in the family,
33:18
Speaker 2: or even the death of a beloved pet, that in
33:23
Speaker 2: the midst of the pain, there is still something larger
33:28
Speaker 2: than us in what has happened. I think that religious
33:33
Speaker 2: feeling plays some part of that, that there is part
33:37
Speaker 2: of a plan or a larger unfolding that is happening
33:44
Speaker 2: that can also bring us to our knees psychologically and otherwise,
33:49
Speaker 2: and that something is added to us, strengthens us, I think,
33:56
Speaker 2: when we can have that sense of, as you said, transcendence,
34:01
Speaker 2: the spiritual, the greater, the awe-filled in our troubles and
34:08
Speaker 2: in the times when we feel that we have been
34:10
Speaker 2: blotted out temporarily.
34:12
Speaker 3: Yeah. This takes me to the idea of surrender and
34:18
Speaker 3: that sometimes we have to surrender. As an ancient human
34:26
Speaker 3: on the planet, when this happened, we would simply have
34:30
Speaker 3: to surrender to probably the dread of what is going
34:36
Speaker 3: on and is the world coming to an end? Sometimes
34:42
Speaker 3: we have to surrender to something like a depression. If
34:47
Speaker 3: we could think our way out of a depression, oh
34:49
Speaker 3: my God, we would. Anybody would, any day of the week.
34:56
Speaker 3: That there is something here, not of my creation and
35:02
Speaker 3: not of my choosing. I have to bow to it.
35:06
Speaker 3: The ego is forced to to surrender to something that
35:13
Speaker 3: looks dark as well as something that looks luminous and luminous.
35:20
Speaker 2: And even the things that are luminous can be just
35:25
Speaker 2: as dangerous. We tend to fear the darkness more. But
35:32
Speaker 2: that is just, as you were saying, that fear of
35:36
Speaker 2: loss of power. or loss of immediate perception. You know,
35:42
Speaker 2: I was thinking about the stories of how damaging that
35:47
Speaker 2: it can be to simply stare into the sun during
35:52
Speaker 2: the partial eclipse because the sunlight seems to have diminished.
36:00
Speaker 2: I'm sure that in the ancient world this had to
36:02
Speaker 2: happen because there were no optometrists giving people advice about this.
36:08
Speaker 2: So the sun begins to fade. I'm sure you had
36:11
Speaker 2: entire villages who were staring right into the sun as
36:15
Speaker 2: the moon is gobbling it down. And optometrists and ophthalmologists
36:21
Speaker 2: can actually look at the cornea and see the shape
36:29
Speaker 2: of the damage and predict at times that there are
36:33
Speaker 2: actually small crescents that has been burned out of the cornea.
36:38
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
36:38
Speaker 2: From staring at the sun. And because the cornea has
36:42
Speaker 2: no nerve endings in it, you can't sense pain. The
36:46
Speaker 2: next morning, all of a sudden you get out of
36:49
Speaker 2: bed and you can't see the people across the table
36:53
Speaker 2: from you, that you've been moon struck, so to speak.
36:57
Speaker 2: And that doesn't come back. So I'm sure another part
37:01
Speaker 2: of the fear of the eclipse is is that hundreds,
37:07
Speaker 2: if not thousands of people innocently staring at the eclipse
37:11
Speaker 2: the next morning and from then on can never see
37:16
Speaker 2: correctly again. So staring right at the light sometimes can
37:22
Speaker 2: be just as dangerous as what we fear the darkness
37:25
Speaker 2: will bring. But being able to look at the eclipse
37:31
Speaker 2: when it's in its fullness, apparently that is not damaging
37:34
Speaker 2: to the retina. So there are certain things that happen
37:39
Speaker 2: in the psyche, perhaps even certain things that happen in
37:42
Speaker 2: the world around us, that we have to shield our
37:45
Speaker 2: eyes from. We do this instinctively with children. We won't
37:49
Speaker 2: let them see certain things. We don't want the image
37:53
Speaker 2: of certain horrible things burned into their imagination. And as adults,
38:00
Speaker 2: we often foolishly feel that we can be exposed to anything,
38:05
Speaker 2: that we can now, see every image of every terrible
38:09
Speaker 2: thing that's happening on the planet through the internet and
38:13
Speaker 2: keep looking at it the way an uninformed person might
38:17
Speaker 2: stare at the sun during an eclipse as it burns
38:20
Speaker 2: away and injures us in some fashion.
38:23
Speaker 3: You're making such a good point that I'm enlarging on
38:30
Speaker 3: taking a jump over to video games and social media
38:35
Speaker 3: and all that stuff that catches people up on screens.
38:40
Speaker 3: And it's feeding ego. You know, we're entranced by it.
38:46
Speaker 3: The same way that someone might have been entranced by
38:50
Speaker 3: looking up at the sun during the solar eclipse and
38:54
Speaker 3: damaging cornea and retina. Are we feeding our egos the
39:01
Speaker 3: light of all the stuff on screens and all the
39:06
Speaker 3: sensationalist stuff, all the stuff that's in the news? It's
39:08
Speaker 3: all the time. It's, hey, did you hear about, wait
39:11
Speaker 3: a minute, there was a story. We get excited and
39:16
Speaker 3: ego gobbles it up. You know, what kind of psychic
39:22
Speaker 3: burns are we sustaining, so to speak, from feeding our egos,
39:30
Speaker 3: you know, all day, every day, and living most of
39:33
Speaker 3: us lives very distant from nature versus living in an
39:41
Speaker 3: enchanted or an ensouled world? world in which our egos
39:49
Speaker 3: are relativized, which is a sort of awkward but very
39:54
Speaker 3: Jungian phrase, that we need to realize that our egos
40:01
Speaker 3: are not running the show, although we like to think
40:05
Speaker 3: that our egos are, that there is something greater that
40:09
Speaker 3: Jung called the self, and we can get glimpses, intimations, hints,
40:19
Speaker 3: and experiences of it when we see something filled with awe,
40:25
Speaker 3: like the eclipse or like your first time seeing the
40:28
Speaker 3: Pacific Ocean, that there's something greater. My ego is not
40:35
Speaker 3: all there is. And we long, I think we long
40:39
Speaker 3: to know that. to feel it, to see it, or
40:44
Speaker 3: hear it, or really experience it in vivo, which I'm
40:53
Speaker 3: going back to my rant about screens. You can't do
40:55
Speaker 3: that on a screen. You could be excited on a screen,
41:00
Speaker 3: but an experience of true relationship, felt connection to something greater,
41:07
Speaker 3: I don't think so. And we fill our lives with,
41:13
Speaker 3: with that and are hungry for the transcendent, which on
41:20
Speaker 3: a more hopeful note takes me to the rebirth theme.
41:25
Speaker 3: The sun dies and it reemerges.
41:29
Speaker 2: Even if we were in the ancient world and no
41:32
Speaker 2: one had ever told us about an eclipse, the fact
41:35
Speaker 2: that the sun does reemerge even when we are uncertain
41:40
Speaker 2: that it could that we emerge after, let's say, a
41:45
Speaker 2: terrible loss, a period of mourning, that we also rise
41:50
Speaker 2: like the sun in a way that we could not
41:53
Speaker 2: have predicted. And to have had that even once in
41:58
Speaker 2: one's life can give us a sense of certainty around that. Yes.
42:06
Speaker 3: We don't doubt the things that we experience. We're just
42:11
Speaker 3: not made that way. And I often use the analogy
42:16
Speaker 3: of when you know something, you know it forever. And
42:19
Speaker 3: my simple homespun analogy is when you're six or seven
42:24
Speaker 3: years old, five years old, you learn to ride a bike.
42:29
Speaker 3: You know that. You know you can ride a bike forever.
42:34
Speaker 3: And you will know how to ride a bike for
42:36
Speaker 3: the rest of your life, even if you haven't ridden
42:40
Speaker 3: a bike like me for 20 years. I know how
42:43
Speaker 3: to ride a bike. I know what it feels like.
42:48
Speaker 3: I know it in my cellular structure. And I think
42:54
Speaker 3: when you have an experience of awe, you know it
42:59
Speaker 3: in a way that is beyond doubt. I felt it.
43:04
Speaker 3: I saw this. I know. And I not only know
43:10
Speaker 3: with my eyes and my body and all of that,
43:16
Speaker 3: I know with my psychic organ of apperception. We have
43:21
Speaker 3: the ability to experience things psychically. And that's how we
43:27
Speaker 3: know and feel and live into an experience of awe
43:34
Speaker 3: and dread and reverence and all of those things is
43:39
Speaker 3: through our ability to perceive something psychically that is just
43:45
Speaker 3: as real as touch or hearing or sight.
43:51
Speaker 2: And when we come through that cycle of death and
43:55
Speaker 2: resurrection internally, it imparts a kind of lived authority, which
44:00
Speaker 2: is what you were saying, Deb, that If one has
44:04
Speaker 2: gone through a thing, we know. We don't speculate. We know.
44:10
Speaker 3: Yes. And that's exactly what Jung said at the end
44:14
Speaker 3: of his life. He was being interviewed for, I think,
44:18
Speaker 3: a BBC presentation. It's still available. And the interviewer asks
44:24
Speaker 3: him if he believes in God. And Jung says, I
44:28
Speaker 3: don't believe. I know. So that there is something more,
44:34
Speaker 3: there is something greater, and we are part of something greater.
44:41
Speaker 3: We are part of an earth and a planet and
44:44
Speaker 3: a cosmos and stars and, and, and. How do we
44:51
Speaker 3: feel held in that? Can we trust it? Is there
44:59
Speaker 3: meaning in it? Do we belong?
45:04
Speaker 2: When we turn sometimes to myth, ancient images, symbols, texts,
45:12
Speaker 2: that we're looking for the language that can help bridge
45:17
Speaker 2: our ego state to something that is larger than us.
45:22
Speaker 2: And this is why myths and religions have such a
45:25
Speaker 2: lasting quality, is that they create some of that psychological
45:31
Speaker 2: bridging between the smallness of our ego and at least
45:37
Speaker 2: the promise of something that is more transcendent. I was
45:41
Speaker 2: coming back to the idea of the eclipse and the
45:45
Speaker 2: things that we survive that eclipse the ego and about
45:50
Speaker 2: the idea that when we have experienced that internal eclipse
45:55
Speaker 2: and have come out the other side of it, that
45:57
Speaker 2: we carry a kind of authority, a lived authority. Thinking
46:02
Speaker 2: about how we seek out people who have had that
46:07
Speaker 2: kind of lived authority. For instance, someone who's just discovered
46:13
Speaker 2: they're going to go through a divorce. They'll often go
46:17
Speaker 2: to someone else that they know well and say, hey,
46:20
Speaker 2: you came through the divorce. You went through this eclipse
46:24
Speaker 2: and came out the other side. I need to talk
46:28
Speaker 2: to you. I need I need to know something or
46:31
Speaker 2: know what it's like to enter into this eclipse and
46:35
Speaker 2: to come out the other side, changed perhaps, but intact.
46:41
Speaker 2: We go to someone that's perhaps overcome a terrible illness
46:44
Speaker 2: that we've been diagnosed with. We want to be around
46:48
Speaker 2: people who have survived the eclipse of a terrible illness
46:53
Speaker 2: or other kinds of eclipsing experiences.
46:58
Speaker 3: And that these things happen to us. That when you're
47:03
Speaker 3: in it, you're in it. And that, you know, I'm
47:08
Speaker 3: going back to your idea here of the black sun
47:12
Speaker 3: or the light in the dark. That we're not alone
47:18
Speaker 3: in it. We're still part of something greater. We'd like
47:24
Speaker 3: to believe that. all the time in what ego would
47:27
Speaker 3: construct as a happy ending of the terrible illness of
47:32
Speaker 3: someone who is needed and beloved and important in a family,
47:40
Speaker 3: that it may not be fixed from the ego's point
47:45
Speaker 3: of view. And we are in the midst of something greater, darker,
47:53
Speaker 3: and connecting if we can find it. We can be there.
47:59
Speaker 3: And one way or another, it will change. And we
48:05
Speaker 3: are in the hands sometimes of a mystery of how
48:10
Speaker 3: will it change? How will we come out the other side?
48:16
Speaker 3: We don't always know.
48:17
Speaker 2: We don't at all. And that is part of both
48:22
Speaker 2: the fear and the... the beauty and the transformational possibility
48:29
Speaker 2: of some of these things. Leaning into that, in the Gospels,
48:38
Speaker 2: there is a description that only shows up in the
48:40
Speaker 2: book of Luke, who is recounting the crucifixion. And he writes,
48:50
Speaker 2: It was now about the sixth hour, And there was
48:54
Speaker 2: darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while
48:58
Speaker 2: the sun's light failed and the curtain of the temple
49:03
Speaker 2: was torn in two. And so, in that surrender to
49:12
Speaker 2: the events that we cannot control, whether they're internal events,
49:17
Speaker 2: like overwhelming psychological state, life events that are thrust upon
49:24
Speaker 2: us for all kinds of reasons, that there is a
49:27
Speaker 2: darkness and there is a feeling that the light has failed,
49:33
Speaker 2: that something has been torn apart inside of ourselves, and
49:40
Speaker 2: that we are in that stasis, that we are waiting
49:47
Speaker 2: in that torn darkness inside of ourselves, waiting for something
49:53
Speaker 2: deeper to reorganize our ability to cope, to move forward. Again,
50:03
Speaker 2: Jung speaks to this and suggests that it is the
50:07
Speaker 2: archetype of the self that there is an archetype of
50:11
Speaker 2: wholeness that is capable of reordering the internal heavens, reordering
50:18
Speaker 2: the stars inside of us, reordering our attitudes, our priorities
50:27
Speaker 2: that activates inside of us in a way that the
50:31
Speaker 2: ego cannot control or command. And then we come forward different.
50:37
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like that idea of the internal cosmos, of
50:43
Speaker 3: our internal stars being realigned, and that the self mythologically
50:53
Speaker 3: can act on us in these very sudden, unanticipated ways,
50:59
Speaker 3: as it must have seemed to ancient man, that all
51:03
Speaker 3: of a sudden, oh my God, what's happening? And being terrified,
51:07
Speaker 3: taken by surprise, as a metaphor for the self, for
51:13
Speaker 3: the divine, that the divine can engineer an intervention, so
51:20
Speaker 3: to speak, that just stops us in our tracks. And
51:25
Speaker 3: in the Christian tradition, of course, the self knocked Saul,
51:29
Speaker 3: who would become St. Paul, off his horse, and he
51:33
Speaker 3: was blinded for three days. So it is an experience
51:38
Speaker 3: of the self, the divine, in all its power that
51:45
Speaker 3: can just take us by the scruff of the neck
51:50
Speaker 3: and shake us to the core. And that when we
51:55
Speaker 3: come out of it, we are different. We have a
51:59
Speaker 3: different alignment. We we know we are part of something
52:04
Speaker 3: greater because something greater eclipsed us in a way that
52:10
Speaker 3: we cannot doubt. And then I think the next step is,
52:15
Speaker 3: you know, that we have, we all from time immemorial,
52:21
Speaker 3: mankind has had a relationship with the gods, the God
52:27
Speaker 3: it's as it's been imagined in so many ways. And
52:32
Speaker 3: what does that relationship look like in daily waking life?
52:40
Speaker 3: I love that image of the warriors shooting arrows at
52:46
Speaker 3: the demon that swallowed the sun. We're going to ride
52:51
Speaker 3: to the rescue, so to speak. I'm mixing metaphors. You know,
52:56
Speaker 3: I'm going to engage this in the best way that
53:01
Speaker 3: I know how. We can approach it and we can
53:03
Speaker 3: feel scared, we can feel heroic, we can feel awestruck,
53:08
Speaker 3: we can feel all kinds of things. But how are
53:12
Speaker 3: we going to have a relationship with the something greater
53:18
Speaker 3: after the event has passed? And then there are all
53:24
Speaker 3: the dreams that come from that internal cosmos that you've referenced, Joseph,
53:32
Speaker 3: which I really like, of what is that area that
53:36
Speaker 3: is just in me, in you, comes through me, comes
53:41
Speaker 3: through you, and we can't pinpoint it. To this day,
53:45
Speaker 3: no one knows really what the physiology, so to speak,
53:49
Speaker 3: of dreams is that resists being captured by science. So
53:55
Speaker 3: we do have an internal cosmos, and it is alive.
54:00
Speaker 3: So there are all these ways, I think, of connecting
54:04
Speaker 3: with what is greater between me and me or you
54:08
Speaker 3: and you through a dream, in lived relationship in waking life,
54:14
Speaker 3: taking time out to simply look at the clouds, to
54:20
Speaker 3: have a reverie, to pray, to do what people may do.
54:25
Speaker 3: And then these huge cosmic transcendence experiences where the heavens
54:32
Speaker 3: themselves turn our lived experience upside down.
54:37
Speaker 2: And that we seek them. We need them. That they
54:41
Speaker 2: are a kind of nutrient for the soul. Yeah. Something
54:46
Speaker 2: in us is starved for it.
54:49
Speaker 3: Yes.
54:50
Speaker 2: Even if we don't realize, we find ourselves taking days
54:54
Speaker 2: off from work, driving all the way down to Texas
54:58
Speaker 2: from Maine, and feeling that something is carrying us. There
55:02
Speaker 2: is a determination to do this thing, to have this
55:06
Speaker 2: encounter at all costs. And maybe it's witnessing the eclipse,
55:12
Speaker 2: but there are many other things that we could equate
55:17
Speaker 2: to that same calling. that same vocatus, the thing that
55:22
Speaker 2: I just must encounter, the thing I must do, the
55:26
Speaker 2: thing that I can't explain or nobody seems to understand
55:31
Speaker 2: why I just have to do this thing, that there's
55:36
Speaker 2: a call for the encounter. Finishing up here with the eclipse,
55:43
Speaker 2: that in this world where there is so much suspicion
55:49
Speaker 2: and doubt about the validity of an internal spiritual experience,
55:56
Speaker 2: that we are called to look upon something that cannot
56:02
Speaker 2: be invalidated. And so those many hundreds of thousands of
56:09
Speaker 2: people that have flocked into the path of the eclipse
56:14
Speaker 2: to stand there, and I would suspect that part of
56:17
Speaker 2: them has already experienced the way in which their egos
56:22
Speaker 2: have invalidated the numinous. We have all had numinous moments.
56:28
Speaker 2: As you said, if nowhere else in a dream that
56:33
Speaker 2: we woke from something transcendent, how easily we dismiss how
56:41
Speaker 2: easy and facile the ego has become at pushing something
56:48
Speaker 2: larger than us away So to find ourselves there on
56:54
Speaker 2: the ground, staring at the eclipse and being reduced to
57:00
Speaker 2: something that we can't invalidate, no matter how hard we try,
57:04
Speaker 2: and that we need that somewhere.
57:09
Speaker 3: We need that somewhere. And here with the eclipse, there
57:16
Speaker 3: is the experience of that cannot be denied, cannot be invalidated.
57:22
Speaker 3: And it's an experience of such a unity of that
57:26
Speaker 3: everybody will experience it. Down to the smallest insect, mouse, bird, bee,
57:36
Speaker 3: there's a wholeness in being caught up it. And we
57:43
Speaker 3: need it and can have it in other ways. We
57:48
Speaker 3: can relate to the something greater in a lot of
57:53
Speaker 3: ways in our lived lives. And we have access to
57:57
Speaker 3: dreams that I think most people who pay attention to
58:02
Speaker 3: dreams are gifted with a numinous dream from time to time,
58:09
Speaker 3: a sense of I did not create this. I have
58:14
Speaker 3: no lived experience of this particular kind of mountaintop with
58:21
Speaker 3: fire at its crests, let's say, that we know there
58:26
Speaker 3: is something more and we need it and we can
58:33
Speaker 3: have it.
58:34
Speaker 2: Maybe that's it. Yes, that's a perfect transition into our
58:38
Speaker 2: dream for today.
58:40
Speaker 3: So let us wish all those viewing the eclipse the
58:45
Speaker 3: clear skies and the experience I hope you're going to
58:49
Speaker 3: have today. It's all you hope it will be. And remember,
58:54
Speaker 3: it's available in smaller amounts and through different channels all day,
59:01
Speaker 3: every day.
59:07
Speaker 2: I need just a moment to share something with you.
59:11
Speaker 2: We started this Jungian life because we believed wholeheartedly that
59:15
Speaker 2: Jung's ideas are universally helpful and healing. Our mission is
59:20
Speaker 2: to make his work relevant to everyone by showing how
59:23
Speaker 2: it can be applied to everyday problems. Many of you
59:26
Speaker 2: have written in telling us it's working. Now our next
59:29
Speaker 2: stage of growth is up to you. The algorithms that
59:32
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Speaker 2: also tap the tiny bell on the upper right corner
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Speaker 2: of your screen. And follow us on Spotify. Tap the
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Speaker 2: bell there too. You can do that right now. Just
59:57
Speaker 2: tap or click. That's it. Thank you for caring enough
1:00:01
Speaker 2: to help us. Our dreamer is a 27-year-old male who
1:00:12
Speaker 2: is in the military. And he writes, The dream starts
1:00:18
Speaker 2: in a run-down house. In front of me there is
1:00:22
Speaker 2: an unattractive woman and a good-looking guy making out on
1:00:26
Speaker 2: the sofa. I get bored and ask if we can
1:00:29
Speaker 2: go somewhere more interesting. They have evil grins on their
1:00:33
Speaker 2: face and say, yes. We go to an abandoned factory-like complex,
1:00:39
Speaker 2: meet an Asian man there who follows us down very
1:00:44
Speaker 2: deep underground. We climb down metal staircases and everything is
1:00:51
Speaker 2: pitch black. We get to the basement and there is
1:00:55
Speaker 2: a dark robed figure. It says, it's good that you
1:01:00
Speaker 2: came here, but come back tomorrow and all will be explained.
1:01:06
Speaker 2: The other people I'm with get disappointed. We leave the
1:01:10
Speaker 2: complex and I go home. The next day I get
1:01:13
Speaker 2: the call from the unattractive woman and she asks if
1:01:17
Speaker 2: I can pick her up for the meeting with the
1:01:18
Speaker 2: dark-robed figure and I comply. When we arrive, she asks
1:01:25
Speaker 2: not to tell that she's here with me to the
1:01:28
Speaker 2: dark road figure. I go to speak with the figure
1:01:33
Speaker 2: and he takes off his hood and it's my chief
1:01:37
Speaker 2: from the military unit who I get along with. We
1:01:42
Speaker 2: go down to the same basement and there are a
1:01:44
Speaker 2: lot of people all looking like fighters. The dark road
1:01:50
Speaker 2: figure will call him K. Now says that I need
1:01:56
Speaker 2: to go first into the ring I see my opponent.
1:02:01
Speaker 2: He's strong and fit, and he's bad-mouthing me. He's saying
1:02:06
Speaker 2: how the fight's going to be so easy for him.
1:02:09
Speaker 2: The fight starts. He kicks me. I grab his leg,
1:02:14
Speaker 2: and I make a painful move on him. It's not
1:02:18
Speaker 2: to traumatize him, so I let go. He boasts how
1:02:24
Speaker 2: I was lucky while coming back to Kaye. Kay is
1:02:30
Speaker 2: very disappointed and says that I should have finished the job.
1:02:35
Speaker 2: I still hear my opponent bad-mouthing me, and that angers me.
1:02:41
Speaker 2: So I grab a machete off the ground and start
1:02:43
Speaker 2: whacking my opponent and everyone else in the basement. Kay,
1:02:48
Speaker 2: the unattractive woman, the guy she was making out with,
1:02:51
Speaker 2: the Asian man who joined you. We kill a lot
1:02:55
Speaker 2: of people in that room, and we are soaked in blood.
1:02:59
Speaker 2: And Kay says to me that it's finally time for
1:03:05
Speaker 2: me to meet him. Kay tells me to wait in
1:03:10
Speaker 2: the dark staircase that leads to the basement. The unattractive
1:03:15
Speaker 2: woman says to me, whatever, don't look at them. I
1:03:23
Speaker 2: hear Kay's voice and two other distorted voices talking. but
1:03:29
Speaker 2: I only hear one set of footsteps that are walking
1:03:32
Speaker 2: on metal stairs. The figures start descending the stairs with Kay.
1:03:39
Speaker 2: I get a glimpse through the corner of my eye
1:03:42
Speaker 2: that one of the black figures is smaller and the
1:03:45
Speaker 2: other bigger. The smaller one approaches me. I don't look
1:03:50
Speaker 2: at its face. I only look at its feet. But
1:03:54
Speaker 2: I only see some sort of dark smoke The smaller
1:03:59
Speaker 2: figure says to me, You are interesting, and tells the
1:04:05
Speaker 2: other bigger figure to approach me. I feel immense pressure
1:04:10
Speaker 2: around me. The dark figure grabs my chin and says
1:04:15
Speaker 2: it's fine to look at him. I look at where
1:04:19
Speaker 2: the face is supposed to be, and I wake up.
1:04:24
Speaker 2: He gives us a bit of context. and writes that
1:04:29
Speaker 2: he is currently on a path to change his career,
1:04:32
Speaker 2: and that he had some relationships, problems with a crush
1:04:36
Speaker 2: that he was talking to. He says the main feelings
1:04:41
Speaker 2: in the dream were, surprisingly, that he didn't feel fear
1:04:46
Speaker 2: or scared, even though the dream looks quite dark and
1:04:50
Speaker 2: cruel and gloomy. But he was feeling relaxed and even
1:04:55
Speaker 2: in some sort of a bliss. And then he adds
1:05:00
Speaker 2: that he really wants to know more about the dark
1:05:03
Speaker 2: figures that appeared, also the Asian fellow and the unattractive
1:05:08
Speaker 2: girl and the good-looking guy. And he says that the
1:05:12
Speaker 2: only figure that he met in real life was the
1:05:15
Speaker 2: dark-robed figure that turned out to be Kay, whom he
1:05:19
Speaker 2: actually knew. So one just little bit that I'm... I
1:05:24
Speaker 2: know we've said many times in the podcast that This
1:05:28
Speaker 2: guy's 27, and he is moving towards his first Saturn
1:05:34
Speaker 2: return astrologically. And I don't think of myself as an
1:05:39
Speaker 2: overly knowledgeable astrologer. I'm kind of an armchair cocktail party astrologer,
1:05:46
Speaker 2: but just enough to be entertaining. But that right about
1:05:50
Speaker 2: every 27 to 30 years, Saturn returns to the same
1:05:55
Speaker 2: position it held at the moment of your birth. And
1:06:00
Speaker 2: it's said that there is a kind of spiritual activation
1:06:04
Speaker 2: that happens inside of us that can be very challenging,
1:06:09
Speaker 2: but it does forward our growth, often by awakening an
1:06:14
Speaker 2: internal pressure. So I'm thinking about this guy going down
1:06:20
Speaker 2: into the unconscious and encountering this dark figure that initiates
1:06:26
Speaker 2: him into this enormous amount of shadow, and it reminds
1:06:31
Speaker 2: me of Saturn or Kronos there in the underworld, forcing
1:06:38
Speaker 2: him to know something, and that even though in a
1:06:43
Speaker 2: naturalistic way the images are frightening, but psychologically it's almost
1:06:48
Speaker 2: blissful for him to come into contact with all of
1:06:53
Speaker 2: this dynamism that is somewhere in the unconscious.
1:06:59
Speaker 3: You know what this dream made me remember? The movie
1:07:03
Speaker 3: Fight Club. Looking for transcendence through violence. And, you know,
1:07:13
Speaker 3: that may seem like such an impossible thing to even
1:07:18
Speaker 3: conceive of or say, but violence is a way of
1:07:23
Speaker 3: achieving transformation. You know, when we kill something, it is transformed. When,
1:07:32
Speaker 3: you know, we conquered the Wild West, politicians running for
1:07:38
Speaker 3: office talk about how they're going to fight for you,
1:07:41
Speaker 3: their constituents. It's very alive in our culture and certainly
1:07:47
Speaker 3: in the psyche. And here is the descent. Our dream
1:07:52
Speaker 3: ego has a descent. They go into this basement. There's
1:07:56
Speaker 3: a dark-robed figure who is our dreamer's military chief, the officer,
1:08:05
Speaker 3: I guess, to whom he reports. But anyway, a figure
1:08:10
Speaker 3: who is senior to the dream ego. And so he
1:08:16
Speaker 3: gets along well with them. They all go down. The
1:08:19
Speaker 3: opponent thinks the fight will be easy. And our dream
1:08:24
Speaker 3: ego says... I make a painful move on him not
1:08:29
Speaker 3: to traumatize him, so I let go. And then Kay,
1:08:35
Speaker 3: his superior officer, the dark-robed figure, says, you should have
1:08:39
Speaker 3: finished the job. You shouldn't have let him off. And
1:08:44
Speaker 3: the opponent is still bad-mouthing. And then there's this whole
1:08:49
Speaker 3: melee of the ugly woman, Kay, the guy she made
1:08:54
Speaker 3: out with, the Asian man, And it's a real bloody...
1:09:00
Speaker 3: real bloody mess. I am very curious as to what
1:09:07
Speaker 3: needs to be battled. What is the fight in the
1:09:13
Speaker 3: psyche that is taking place down below in this basement
1:09:20
Speaker 3: with these other dream figures against an unknown opponent. And
1:09:27
Speaker 3: the smaller figure says at the end, you're interesting. And
1:09:32
Speaker 3: our dream ego feels immense pressure around me. And the
1:09:37
Speaker 3: dark figure says, it's fine to look at him. So
1:09:41
Speaker 3: I'm wondering about the archetype of battle and of fighting
1:09:45
Speaker 3: to the finish. And some kind of heroic aura that
1:09:52
Speaker 3: this has taken on in the dream.
1:09:55
Speaker 2: I take your point that, well, one, there is something
1:10:00
Speaker 2: in the unconscious that he must encounter. That's undeniable. I
1:10:06
Speaker 2: want to just come back to the beginning of the
1:10:09
Speaker 2: dream for a moment as we then talk about what's
1:10:11
Speaker 2: going on in the basement. Jung talked about in very
1:10:16
Speaker 2: general terms, that there are three stages of development. One
1:10:21
Speaker 2: is shadow work. The second stage is the anima animus work,
1:10:26
Speaker 2: this encounter with the contrasexual. And if we then can
1:10:30
Speaker 2: blend with these opposite personality qualities, then we set the
1:10:35
Speaker 2: stage for the incarnation of the self, which is the
1:10:38
Speaker 2: fullness of the personality. So it starts, and the dream
1:10:44
Speaker 2: ego is seeing the beginning of a connection between the
1:10:48
Speaker 2: feminine and the masculine. These people are making out on
1:10:52
Speaker 2: the sofa. If that were to continue, maybe they would
1:10:57
Speaker 2: become a more intimate kind of union. But the dream
1:11:01
Speaker 2: ego can't relate to that. It says, oh, I need
1:11:05
Speaker 2: something more interesting. So it seems like there is a
1:11:09
Speaker 2: bid for him to become interested in this animus integration
1:11:17
Speaker 2: But for him, that the female or the feminine is
1:11:21
Speaker 2: not attractive enough. It's troubling to him, which may have
1:11:26
Speaker 2: something to do with work that he needs to do
1:11:29
Speaker 2: with his inner feminine. But because he cannot relate to
1:11:34
Speaker 2: the kunyuntiyo, he can't relate to the integration of the anima,
1:11:39
Speaker 2: then he is sent back to do more shadow work,
1:11:43
Speaker 2: which is how it happens, that We have to integrate
1:11:48
Speaker 2: enough shadow in order to move on to the next
1:11:52
Speaker 2: stage of development towards individuation. And they say, sure, we
1:12:00
Speaker 2: will lead you to this other piece of work for you.
1:12:05
Speaker 2: And then, of course, we go into the underground and
1:12:08
Speaker 2: there is a test. So it's an artificial battle at
1:12:15
Speaker 2: first because there's a ring. There's a boxing ring or
1:12:21
Speaker 2: some kind of a context. And he's sparring, and he's
1:12:27
Speaker 2: using his sparring skills just as one might do, let's say,
1:12:32
Speaker 2: in a dojo or a karate studio. You're not supposed
1:12:36
Speaker 2: to actually hurt the people you're training with, but you're
1:12:38
Speaker 2: practicing his skillful moves. He kicks, grabs the legs. You know,
1:12:45
Speaker 2: he gives the guy a little... twist, let's say, a
1:12:48
Speaker 2: little pain. He doesn't want to really injure someone because
1:12:53
Speaker 2: he's just sparring. But there's something inside of the psyche
1:12:58
Speaker 2: that says, this isn't a game. You can't just spar
1:13:03
Speaker 2: with your life. You're really in a battle with something
1:13:09
Speaker 2: inside of yourself. And one, we could say that the
1:13:14
Speaker 2: psyche is wants him to know something about his own lethality.
1:13:21
Speaker 2: The psyche needs him to come out of this encounter
1:13:25
Speaker 2: with a full sense of responsibility for the way in
1:13:29
Speaker 2: which he can be dangerous and to not hedge about it,
1:13:34
Speaker 2: not make any silliness. You are capable of being very dangerous,
1:13:41
Speaker 2: perhaps as a military person, but also just as a
1:13:44
Speaker 2: human being Now, it seems that he needs someone to
1:13:52
Speaker 2: give him permission. His natural tendency is to just spar.
1:13:58
Speaker 2: But K, I'm not sure exactly what K represents inside
1:14:02
Speaker 2: of him, says, no, you have to finish the job.
1:14:10
Speaker 2: And then somehow he has access to anger, which was
1:14:14
Speaker 2: not present earlier. And then he's able to go into
1:14:20
Speaker 2: this great kind of berserker mode.
1:14:23
Speaker 3: Yes.
1:14:23
Speaker 2: Like the Vikings.
1:14:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. It does feel very much like berserker mode.
1:14:32
Speaker 3: Is this really something about a battle? Our dream ego
1:14:38
Speaker 3: is sparring at first, and then it shifts into this
1:14:43
Speaker 3: berserker kind of process. that everything, there's a machete and
1:14:50
Speaker 3: there's blood everywhere, they kill everybody in the room. Maybe
1:14:54
Speaker 3: the dream is raising the question of what are you fighting?
1:15:01
Speaker 3: What are you fighting for? What are you fighting against?
1:15:05
Speaker 3: How do you fight? Where is the difference between sparring,
1:15:10
Speaker 3: not taking it really seriously enough, versus just going berserk?
1:15:16
Speaker 3: this is not a warrior stance that our dream ego
1:15:22
Speaker 3: is evidencing.
1:15:23
Speaker 2: If you wax the opponent and everyone else.
1:15:28
Speaker 3: Exactly. So it's somewhat indiscriminate. And in the comments, he
1:15:34
Speaker 3: says that he is currently on a path to change
1:15:38
Speaker 3: his career. And as you noted, the time of the
1:15:42
Speaker 3: first Saturn return, which as it just so happens is,
1:15:46
Speaker 3: astrology aside or not, happens in the late 20s. There
1:15:52
Speaker 3: is a real realignment and redirection of what am I doing?
1:15:59
Speaker 3: I've been out there oftentimes in my first career or
1:16:04
Speaker 3: continuing education or traveling or a hundred things. And then
1:16:09
Speaker 3: there's a reorientation along around our late 20s. of, oh,
1:16:15
Speaker 3: I need a new orientation, a new stance, a new attitude.
1:16:20
Speaker 3: And I wonder if that is very much what's happening
1:16:23
Speaker 3: for our dream ego of how do we engage? How
1:16:28
Speaker 3: do we fight? What do we fight for? Who are
1:16:31
Speaker 3: we fighting? We usually find out that we're fighting ourselves.
1:16:38
Speaker 3: So it feels like our dream ego is just approaching
1:16:42
Speaker 3: this A reorientation that's going to take energy. It's going
1:16:50
Speaker 3: to call him to engage.
1:16:53
Speaker 2: So if I step away from some of the lurid
1:16:57
Speaker 2: imagery and I just sit with the bones of it,
1:17:02
Speaker 2: I'm only sparring. Some other internal figure says, but you're
1:17:08
Speaker 2: not finishing your jobs. He gets angry and then he
1:17:12
Speaker 2: goes wild. So this is a situation that many of
1:17:16
Speaker 2: us find ourselves in at times in our lives. There
1:17:19
Speaker 2: is a task set before us that we just can't finish.
1:17:23
Speaker 2: We can't get any traction on. Maybe it's finishing your dissertation.
1:17:27
Speaker 2: You did all your PhD work in your ABD, all
1:17:31
Speaker 2: but dissertation. And there's a final battle to kind of
1:17:35
Speaker 2: write that dissertation. Or there's some very complicated certification that
1:17:41
Speaker 2: you would need to take to become a project manager
1:17:46
Speaker 2: at a whole new level. And you'll spar with doing
1:17:51
Speaker 2: your dissertation. You'll pretend that you're going to take this
1:17:55
Speaker 2: very complicated project management certification. And then something as science says,
1:18:01
Speaker 2: you're not finishing the job. When are you going to
1:18:05
Speaker 2: finish the job? And then there's a provocation. The opponent
1:18:11
Speaker 2: starts bad-mouthing him and said, yeah, you're a loser. this
1:18:14
Speaker 2: and that, which of course happens inside of us, but
1:18:18
Speaker 2: it's access to anger. And anger is, in general, that
1:18:23
Speaker 2: energy that allows us to push through an obstacle. It
1:18:28
Speaker 2: gives us enough redness to get the engine going. We
1:18:32
Speaker 2: have to get angry enough on ourselves for being avoidant,
1:18:36
Speaker 2: that we kind of do the job that we've been
1:18:39
Speaker 2: avoiding doing. As you had said, Deb, that this doesn't
1:18:45
Speaker 2: seem very skilled. So everything's getting whacked without discrimination. Although
1:18:54
Speaker 2: it does seem adequate enough for him to take some
1:18:59
Speaker 2: kind of next step, which we don't understand.
1:19:03
Speaker 3: Yeah. The dream ends with a smaller dark figure saying
1:19:07
Speaker 3: to the dream ego, you are interesting. And then he
1:19:13
Speaker 3: tells the other bigger dark figure, the man's military superior, K,
1:19:20
Speaker 3: to approach. He says, I feel immense pressure around me.
1:19:24
Speaker 3: The dark figure grabs my chin and says, it's okay
1:19:29
Speaker 3: to look at him. So something with our dream ego's
1:19:34
Speaker 3: engagement has created this ending of now the dark figure
1:19:40
Speaker 3: his military superior, Kay, they're looking face-to-face and eye-to-eye as
1:19:49
Speaker 3: a result first of this dissent, then the sparring, and
1:19:54
Speaker 3: then this berserker sort of bloodbath with anger and feeling. So, no,
1:19:59
Speaker 3: it's not very skilled. Just grab a machete and start
1:20:05
Speaker 3: whacking at everybody around you. No, not skilled. And it
1:20:11
Speaker 3: is maybe a first necessary stage of engagement.
1:20:17
Speaker 2: But he still ends up feeling pressured, as often happens
1:20:20
Speaker 2: when we don't get the job done. Yeah. So I
1:20:23
Speaker 2: got really angry, and then I started, I don't know,
1:20:26
Speaker 2: furiously reading a bunch of books, and then I wrote
1:20:29
Speaker 2: a bunch of paragraphs, and then I threw it all away,
1:20:32
Speaker 2: and then I wrote it again. And then at the
1:20:34
Speaker 2: end of it, I actually just ripped up my entire
1:20:37
Speaker 2: dissertation that I had worked on because it wasn't good enough.
1:20:40
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, I feel a lot
1:20:43
Speaker 2: of pressure.
1:20:44
Speaker 3: You're re-evoking everyone's thesis experience here. But I think that's
1:20:52
Speaker 3: an important distinction that the feeling of anger gets him activated,
1:20:58
Speaker 3: not in a skilled way. And that is different from
1:21:02
Speaker 3: the job that needs to be done. Of what is
1:21:06
Speaker 3: the job you're here to do? And where is there
1:21:09
Speaker 3: some kind of a different choice between kind of fooling
1:21:15
Speaker 3: around sparring and going berserk? And I'm perceiving the end
1:21:22
Speaker 3: of the dream as, as a very positive comment that
1:21:27
Speaker 3: the dark figure grabs my chin and says it's okay
1:21:30
Speaker 3: to look at him. Look at me. He has a
1:21:33
Speaker 3: positive relationship with this man in waking life. It's a superior.
1:21:40
Speaker 3: So this may be a kind of initiatory dream. This
1:21:45
Speaker 3: is what the first engagement looks like.
1:21:47
Speaker 2: It's messy.
1:21:48
Speaker 3: That's okay.
1:21:50
Speaker 2: His first task was actually something we often all have
1:21:54
Speaker 2: to do when we're not getting the job done is
1:21:56
Speaker 2: we go into the unconscious and there's an inner figure
1:22:00
Speaker 2: that's just bad-mouthing us.
1:22:03
Speaker 3: Yes.
1:22:03
Speaker 2: You know, like we go to write the thesis and
1:22:05
Speaker 2: someone's like, you big dummy. You don't know what you're doing.
1:22:08
Speaker 2: Who do you think you are? And then something in
1:22:11
Speaker 2: the psyche says, I think you need to do battle
1:22:14
Speaker 2: with the bad-mouther and triumph over him. And then you'll
1:22:18
Speaker 2: get the job done. So he, he goes at, The
1:22:23
Speaker 2: bad mouther, he does seem to win that battle. But
1:22:26
Speaker 2: of course, now the dissertation's in pieces. Everything's soaked in blood.
1:22:34
Speaker 2: But it may be possible that he did triumph over
1:22:37
Speaker 2: the bad mouther, even though there's a lot of cleanup
1:22:40
Speaker 2: that's got to happen down there.
1:22:43
Speaker 3: Overall, I think this is a really, it's an encouraging
1:22:46
Speaker 3: dream of where's the battle? What kind of fight is
1:22:52
Speaker 3: called for? what kind of job needs to get done here.
1:22:56
Speaker 3: He's 27 and it's, he's embarking on a new career,
1:23:03
Speaker 3: a new life path. He's right on track, right on time.
1:23:08
Speaker 3: And we never know exactly where psyche is going.
1:23:13
Speaker 2: Absolutely. But it seems to be that the wildness has
1:23:17
Speaker 2: calmed down and there's a couple of internal, I suppose,
1:23:21
Speaker 2: authority figures that, that are ostensibly going to help reorganize
1:23:26
Speaker 2: a little bit of something. I also want to offer
1:23:29
Speaker 2: one more amplification that I think is interesting, is that
1:23:33
Speaker 2: everything is soaked in blood, but it's the inner feminine
1:23:37
Speaker 2: that gives him advice, which is often what the anima
1:23:44
Speaker 2: will do inside of a man's psyche. Although he's been
1:23:49
Speaker 2: swinging the machete around, creating all kinds of carnage, The
1:23:53
Speaker 2: inner feminine says, whatever you do, don't look at them.
1:23:59
Speaker 2: She's still trying to help him. And it reminds me
1:24:03
Speaker 2: of the fairy tale or myth of Culhannan, which in
1:24:09
Speaker 2: Irish mythology, Culhannan was this amazing warrior and was responsible
1:24:16
Speaker 2: for protecting all of Ireland. But what would happen is
1:24:21
Speaker 2: when he would go into war, that he would enter
1:24:25
Speaker 2: into a kind of unstoppable frenzy, which was incredibly helpful.
1:24:29
Speaker 2: But as he went from battle to battle to battle,
1:24:33
Speaker 2: Kulhanin would start just turning on his own men and
1:24:38
Speaker 2: just go into a killing frenzy. And then there is
1:24:40
Speaker 2: one time where they just cannot stop him. But he
1:24:45
Speaker 2: is the perfect warrior, so no one can stop him.
1:24:48
Speaker 2: And what they decide is they need to find the
1:24:52
Speaker 2: most beautiful warrior woman in the village who is able
1:24:56
Speaker 2: to slowly approach him and touch him and bring him
1:25:01
Speaker 2: back from the frenzy of war. And there's just a
1:25:06
Speaker 2: little bit of that in the dream. It's not exactly
1:25:10
Speaker 2: the same, but in the end, on the field of battle,
1:25:14
Speaker 2: that there is a feminine figure that's still there with him,
1:25:17
Speaker 2: trying to give him advice. Now, he doesn't take the advice, unfortunately,
1:25:24
Speaker 2: He finds the woman not attractive, which I think is
1:25:28
Speaker 2: another piece of growth that he needs to take on.
1:25:33
Speaker 2: Because she may be quite right that even though the
1:25:38
Speaker 2: figure says, look me in the eyes, but his soul said,
1:25:43
Speaker 2: don't do it. Don't do it. Something that's not good
1:25:47
Speaker 2: for you might happen.
1:25:49
Speaker 3: And his work right now may be much more with
1:25:53
Speaker 3: with shadow figures than it is with his inner feminine,
1:25:59
Speaker 3: the inner opposite with his anima. It may be, you know,
1:26:05
Speaker 3: on the battleground of where his life is moving now.
1:26:13
Speaker 3: And the model in waking life that K, the dark
1:26:18
Speaker 3: robed figure, presents for him So he may be more
1:26:23
Speaker 3: on hero's journey mode for the time being because at
1:26:28
Speaker 3: the end of the dream, I'm not sure whether it
1:26:32
Speaker 3: is the anima figure who says don't look at them,
1:26:36
Speaker 3: whose advice should be heeded, or whether it's the dark
1:26:40
Speaker 3: rope figure at the end who says it's okay to
1:26:42
Speaker 3: look at me, to look at shadow. We don't know
1:26:47
Speaker 3: and we can just... Imagine that more dreams will be
1:26:52
Speaker 3: shedding more direction, light, and insight on this life passage
1:26:58
Speaker 3: for this dreamer.
1:27:00
Speaker 2: Absolutely. He's in the middle of a really intense process. Yeah.
1:27:08
Speaker 1: You've been listening to This Jungian Life. From our website, thisjungianlife.com,
1:27:14
Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter, like us on Facebook,
1:27:17
Speaker 1: help us produce future episodes by funding us through Patreon,
1:27:21
Speaker 1: and submit your dreams for possible interpretation on another episode.
1:27:25
Speaker 1: We'd like to thank our listener who shared a dream
1:27:28
Speaker 1: for today's show and hope you'll let us know what
1:27:30
Speaker 1: topics you'd enjoy hearing more about. Until next time, keep
1:27:34
Speaker 1: living this Jungian life.