Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 13. Interview with Tanasha Martin: Finishing an Entire Novel

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13. Interview with Tanasha Martin: Finishing an Entire Novel · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:07
  Welcome to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vadori, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction and nonfiction that will wow your readers, broken down step by step.
• 0:20
  This show explores writing techniques and shows you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writing careers and coaches writers live on their pages so you can learn and transform your own storytelling.
• 0:31
  Whether you're just starting out crafting, editing, or currently rewriting your first book or maybe even your 10th, this show will help you unlock the writing skills you didn't know you needed but you definitely do.
• 0:45
  I'm looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas for from your mind onto the page in an exciting way for both you and your readers, so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams while having fun doing it.
• 0:58
  Let's dive in.
• 0:59
  Welcome everybody.
• 1:03
  So I have here with me, Tanasha Morton, Tanasha, welcome.
• 1:09
  Thanks.
• 1:09
  Hi Suzy my pleasure.
• 1:11
  Congratulations on launching your podcast.
• 1:13
  It's been so fun.
• 1:14
  And Tanasha, I'll explain how we've been working together.
• 1:17
  It's been exciting, but I honestly, Tanasha, I've been looking forward to talking with you all day on this podcast.
• 1:23
  And I met Tanasha in 2022.
• 1:26
  When she had a huge, brilliant idea for her YA fantasy novel.
• 1:31
  And she had some scenes written, but was ready to really dive in and wanted to take it seriously and get it done, and it was such a huge project.
• 1:39
  She's originally from Detroit, Michigan.
• 1:41
  And she's a member of the writing journey in Chicago and has taught workshops in the writers group, the brain and writing, which I want to take that workshop, by the way, because, you know, I'm all about writing how the brains work or the brain and maybe the brain and readers is, is, uh, is more what I'm into, uh, working out ideas, poetry, Myers Briggs personality types and characters and writing memoir.
• 2:04
  And she's published poetry and flash fiction and short stories and additional works.
• 2:08
  And you can find those all at TanashaMartinWrites.
• 2:11
  wordpress.
• 2:13
  com.
• 2:13
  Tanasha, we've had a number of guests already on the podcast and we're talking about, you know, mostly with people who've already published and, and going out there, but I really was excited to have you on here because we have so many writers who are writing their first book or in the throes of writing a book and, you know, aren't ready for all of that other information yet.
• 2:35
  They're, they're waiting or they're, they're in the throes of writing.
• 2:38
  And this is what I wanted to talk about.
• 2:40
  I asked you specifically to come on.
• 2:42
  Because your book was so complex and so, so amazing.
• 2:47
  And there was a lot of work involved.
• 2:49
  And so you used a lot of tools and because of your writing background, because you teach writing, you got all these extra tools that we ended up using when we coached together.
• 2:58
  I've been working with Tanasha since 2022.
• 3:01
  She has finished a draft and then I developmentally edited it and she's finished those changes and she's just getting ready to query it.
• 3:09
  So we're kind of at that stage.
• 3:10
  It wasn't, uh, it wasn't maybe an easy choice for you, Tanasha, right?
• 3:14
  To come on here today.
• 3:17
  No, I'm, I'm, I'm an introvert.
• 3:19
  I also don't love when things are focused on me.
• 3:25
  Teaching is a little bit different though.
• 3:27
  So it helps that you said this is a conversation between the two of us, so it's definitely a conversation.
• 3:33
  So we'll just pretend I'll watch the comments and I'll pretend that their questions come from me if that helps.
• 3:38
  Okay.
• 3:39
  Okay.
• 3:40
  So tell us, I mean, I, I absolutely love working with writers who just work hard and so a lot of the shows and the, that we're recording and the guests that I'm bringing on, I want to teach you, if I could bottle that energy that it takes to finish that first book, that first full book and actually sell it or give it, I give it to all of you, uh, give you guys that energy.
• 4:03
  I give you guys that knowledge, then I would do it because it's so hard and the only way that you can sort of see is for people to share their stories.
• 4:12
  And what I'm hoping is that the listeners today will really identify with what you went through and all of the pieces and understand and that they're going to get some great ideas about how to finish their books.
• 4:23
  So tell us a bit about your writing experience so far.
• 4:27
  How long have you loved to write, Tanasha?
• 4:29
  I think I started writing down my fury and frustration as a little girl at about eight.
• 4:38
  I think I wrote before this, but it was just in my head.
• 4:41
  And then I actually started like finding a little composition book, you know, these little yellow composition books.
• 4:48
  And I started writing my frustrations because they were things I was afraid to say out loud.
• 4:53
  But I was upset about them, and it actually got found by my Aunt Jackie.
• 5:01
  Hopefully she wasn't in there.
• 5:03
  Were you frustrated with Aunt Jackie?
• 5:03
  I thought for sure I was toast.
• 5:05
  I thought I was getting a whooping.
• 5:07
  I was seriously afraid.
• 5:10
  But instead, she read, um, what she had read.
• 5:13
  She said, you know, this is really good.
• 5:15
  Keep going and she gave it back to me and I was shocked that that happened.
• 5:21
  Yeah, you're like whoo dodge that bullet, right?
• 5:24
  Yes, I don't know encouraging because she also is a Poet.
• 5:31
  Yeah, I don't know if you can see in the comments, but I see I see a lot of thank yous I see introverts tonight.
• 5:37
  Thank you.
• 5:38
  Thanks for one introvert to another so glad you're here Thank you, Tanasha.
• 5:42
  I'm also an introvert, big time.
• 5:44
  So, you know, like, you're not alone.
• 5:46
  In fact, many times, writers Because, like you said, instead of, that's how you were dealing with it, and as a child you kind of wrote all of that frustration down because you were trying to find a channel for that.
• 5:59
  I've actually been challenged, because I like to call myself the only extroverted writer in Canada, I don't know if that's true.
• 6:05
  I'm sure it's not true, I'm sure it's not true.
• 6:07
  But I actually was challenged by Brandon Mull, I don't know if any of you know him, but He's an amazing writer that I had the opportunity to host at a conference and I spent a lot of time with him.
• 6:18
  And he's like, you know, I've been watching you all weekend at this conference and I'm confused here.
• 6:21
  He's like, how is that even possible that an extrovert is a writer?
• 6:25
  And I was like, I'm not really sure.
• 6:26
  Can I get back to you?
• 6:27
  So the next morning I saw him at breakfast and I was like, Hey.
• 6:30
  I have an answer for you.
• 6:31
  I realized that because he said, you know, introverts sometimes turn to writing on purpose because it's a, it's a way to express things.
• 6:38
  And I said, I have an answer and my team's going to laugh at this.
• 6:42
  And by the way, I couldn't put together this event without my amazing team.
• 6:45
  Thank you guys for all being here today.
• 6:48
  The answer that I realized was that I said, well, nobody.
• 6:52
  That I know wants to hear all of what I got to say.
• 6:57
  I can't, I can't possibly share it all because they'll hate me.
• 7:00
  Or they'll be bored or whatever.
• 7:02
  I'll drive them bananas.
• 7:03
  So I have to write it down and that's my outlet.
• 7:05
  So there's different reasons, right, why we come to it.
• 7:07
  Right, right.
• 7:08
  Yeah, you poked me out of my cave today for sure.
• 7:12
  Well, we're happy to have you roaming free here.
• 7:17
  Oh, we've got a fellow, I've got one.
• 7:19
  Katie says I'm a big extrovert, but and a writer too.
• 7:22
  Perfect.
• 7:22
  Um, so, okay.
• 7:23
  So a lot of people, let us know in the comments, if you were somebody like Tanasha who wrote a lot as a child.
• 7:30
  And so what happened to that writing?
• 7:31
  Where did, where did you go from there?
• 7:34
  Actually, I started writing with a band for a little while, uh, writing songs.
• 7:39
  I know.
• 7:40
  Yes.
• 7:41
  And, um, throughout, Was it college?
• 7:45
  I was doing that for a little while and I did write a short story during college and it like won a little prize and I got to read it to everyone else and it was really validating, you know, instead of me keeping it to myself.
• 8:03
  I found that It made a difference when people heard it, they came up to me after and they were like, Oh, I never thought about it that way, or that's an amazing experience kind of thing.
• 8:15
  And so it was something that.
• 8:17
  I kind of felt like in the back of my head, if I were rich and I had all the time in the world, what would I do?
• 8:24
  And I would write.
• 8:26
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:28
  Absolutely.
• 8:29
  And so what made you want to take the plunge and finally tackle like a huge novel?
• 8:36
  What was it about that moment in time?
• 8:39
  At that moment, I had a few ideas.
• 8:43
  Tucked away or worked on a little bit and then I did some short stories through the writing journey and They were it was an experience that helped me get to the point where I knew it was also going to be hard work Not everything was going to be sparks and lightning strikes and inspiration, it was also going to have to go through numerous revisions and various people who are critiquing you.
• 9:11
  And then you have to recover from the critiquing and then go back into your work and actually make it work.
• 9:17
  So I think I learned a lot then, and I started writing several books at the same time.
• 9:25
  You did.
• 9:25
  And when we met, You had, okay, I really want to coach.
• 9:30
  I'm gonna, I'm gonna finish a book and, but here's all the things I'm doing.
• 9:35
  And I was like, okay, let's pick one, right?
• 9:37
  Let's pick one.
• 9:38
  But why did you choose athletes, which is the working title, or maybe it's going to be the title.
• 9:44
  I'm not sure.
• 9:44
  Why did you choose your book athletes that we ended up working on?
• 9:47
  What was it about that one?
• 9:50
  Well, I decided to make the plunge too because I had been working on it for a few years, these, all these 14 projects and that were novel size.
• 10:03
  And I decided that that one would be mine, my first, because I just had a real passion for it.
• 10:11
  And it kept, the world kept getting bigger and bigger and it kept growing and growing.
• 10:16
  And.
• 10:18
  I felt like it was alive for me.
• 10:20
  I also, I had been saving up to go back to school.
• 10:27
  I had gone to undergraduate.
• 10:29
  I had gone for a master's degree, but those were in teaching.
• 10:32
  And I thought, well, maybe I need some schooling in, in writing and all these little things I can't quite figure out.
• 10:40
  And instead, it was suggested to me by a friend, uh, my friend, Sarah, who also worked with author accelerator that I try book coach.
• 10:51
  And I was talking about it with my husband and he brought up the fact that he was like, it's just a different way of learning.
• 10:59
  That can be your university.
• 11:01
  And for me, that made a big difference because I really didn't want to go.
• 11:05
  And I, I loved going to school, but.
• 11:07
  I didn't want to go back and do the professor's suggested activities.
• 11:13
  I wanted to learn while writing my own book.
• 11:16
  And so with you, I was able to do that.
• 11:19
  Yeah.
• 11:19
  And I think that's, that's just it, right?
• 11:21
  You can go and take a course and you can go and take things.
• 11:25
  I mean, all of the courses that I design, of course, are around your book, right?
• 11:28
  Like every course that I designed, I'm never going to say, Hey, write me some flash fiction and here's your writing prompts.
• 11:34
  Because it's so distracting.
• 11:35
  Right?
• 11:35
  Like we have so many things on the go.
• 11:37
  And for someone like Tanasha, who loves to write, but didn't really ever finish one of those projects, really, right?
• 11:44
  Like you finished the small ones, but the big ones, you didn't take them to that next level.
• 11:48
  You really needed to choose something.
• 11:50
  And, and so it's amazing because then whatever it is, or whatever is, whatever you needed to learn, you've got to practice while writing your own book.
• 11:59
  Which was awesome.
• 12:00
  And was it hard to put the other projects on the backburner?
• 12:03
  I feel like you're going to tell me, no, I was writing them the whole time.
• 12:06
  I mean, I feel like we chose one and we worked on it.
• 12:09
  You're going to work on all those other books, cheating on that Athlings book, right?
• 12:14
  If it didn't take you slapping my hand and going, concentrate, focus on this one.
• 12:19
  I would totally still be stretching all of my energy across the project instead of Focusing and concentrating on finishing that one.
• 12:31
  The other one, I won't lie.
• 12:33
  I do sneak in if I'm inspired, I do sneak in, write down notes, but I don't spend a lot of time in it.
• 12:41
  I just give myself a direction or if an epiphany comes to me in a way that I can work it out.
• 12:48
  Then I go ahead and write it down.
• 12:50
  I give myself an hour.
• 12:51
  To write it down, and if I'm driving or anything like that, I pull over and write it down while it's still exciting, while it's still that sparked lightning bolt.
• 13:05
  I love it.
• 13:06
  So yeah, and then I write my direction and hopefully I can still get the spark back once I, once I go back to the idea.
• 13:14
  Yeah.
• 13:14
  And it's hard, right?
• 13:15
  Like one of the things that happens is, and that's why the first exercise I always do in all of my courses and with all of my writing clients is to talk about why you're writing this one and what is that spark that you came up with in the first place?
• 13:28
  Because it's true.
• 13:29
  That does change over time.
• 13:32
  And when you step away from a project, you may go back to some of those other projects, and they may still be exciting, and then you'll be able to write them.
• 13:37
  You'll have this body of work that's kind of already in progress once you're done, athlings.
• 13:42
  And, and, but.
• 13:45
  You may find that you're no longer as excited about it and that's where I see sometimes we wonder should we be walking away from a project and that's the answer.
• 13:55
  If you're not excited about it anymore, then walk away and that's okay, right?
• 13:59
  If you can put it aside, the good test, you can put it aside and not think about it.
• 14:06
  Then let it go.
• 14:07
  It wasn't meant to be, but if you put it aside and you're still like have to pull over your car on the freeway, you're going to write that book eventually.
• 14:15
  Right.
• 14:16
  You're going to write that book eventually.
• 14:17
  I just love, love, love the way that your brain works and how many ideas you can generate.
• 14:23
  So glad.
• 14:25
  Yeah.
• 14:25
  Well, ideas is not usually the problem.
• 14:27
  Okay.
• 14:27
  Because I think because we're writers and we're all here today because we share that passion.
• 14:32
  Right.
• 14:32
  And I think it's interesting because people from outside of writing, like other people in your lives, friends and family or strangers, they hear that you're a writer and they think that the problem is ideas and they want to give you your idea, their idea.
• 14:45
  And you're like, right, enough to do, right?
• 14:48
  You go write your idea.
• 14:49
  Okay.
• 14:50
  So tell us a little bit about somebody in the comments asked what the book title was.
• 14:53
  It's the Ashling series.
• 14:55
  Oh, the athlete series.
• 14:56
  Okay.
• 14:57
  And tell me, tell us a little bit about your vision for it.
• 15:00
  What's it about?
• 15:01
  Well, uh, I started off when it popped into my head.
• 15:07
  Of course, I'm a very big game of Thrones fan, very big.
• 15:12
  I've watched it at least 10 times through.
• 15:15
  And, uh, my husband was with me.
• 15:19
  A lot of times where I was watching those episodes and I'm like rewriting it out loud and saying, well, how come they didn't do this?
• 15:27
  And they didn't do that.
• 15:28
  And don't come for me internet, but it was George RR's vision.
• 15:33
  It wasn't mine.
• 15:35
  And I really wanted a queen on that throne.
• 15:39
  And if I wanted a queen on that throne, I'd have to Go with my own vision of what I would want that story to be like, so I started there.
• 15:50
  I, I'm very much a feminist and I believe that even though your society tells you, you can't do things.
• 16:01
  You can do them, you can find a way.
• 16:04
  Yeah.
• 16:04
  I love that.
• 16:05
  And so when we first met and I saw sort of the outline and some of the chapters for it, and you told me that I want a woman on the throne and this is about the power and all these, you know what I'm gonna, you know what I'm gonna say.
• 16:17
  Right?
• 16:17
  And then we looked at it.
• 16:19
  And one of the first things that, that we usually talk about is that there is only one, every book in the world is only one person's story.
• 16:27
  Now I'm going to talk about Gavis Rowans before you come for me in the comments there.
• 16:31
  I'm going to talk about it, but, but it's only one person's story and a lot of times we have these dual points of view.
• 16:38
  So if you're writing a book and you've got, You know, different characters speaking in different chapters, which is what Game of Thrones is like, you flash from different places and you've got all these characters in this huge wide world.
• 16:50
  So a lot of, a lot of writers want to construct this and they say, well, all the characters are important.
• 16:55
  Right.
• 16:56
  And, and so the trial, I can see it's an agile space.
• 16:59
  That's so awesome.
• 17:00
  I know where this is going.
• 17:02
  Yeah.
• 17:02
  And so will you feel free to butt in and go.
• 17:06
  Um, so, so the, the thing is, is that.
• 17:08
  At the end of the day, when you're plotting a story, though, it's the easiest way is to plot it around one character's arc.
• 17:16
  And so you choose one of those characters to map as the backbone of your, of your arc, right?
• 17:22
  What, what, what change did they undergo?
• 17:25
  And then you weave everybody else's story mirroring or contrasting or hitting these moments that are either friction.
• 17:36
  Or, you know, or they're coming together and there's harmony, all of those wonderful moments you can't do if they each have their own darn story.
• 17:45
  Right.
• 17:45
  So one of the first things I asked you was whose story is it?
• 17:50
  And do you want to talk about that a little bit?
• 17:51
  I said, yes, I said, this is Jabari's story.
• 17:56
  And I started, I have three points of view in the story.
• 18:00
  There's Kala, Jabari, and Mai.
• 18:04
  And I said this is Jabari's story.
• 18:05
  It's from his perspective.
• 18:07
  He's the main backbone of the book, but my theme of the book on the strength and character of women in society that doesn't accept the That they're valuable doesn't really match up with that.
• 18:25
  And it took me a little while to, I'm convincing you, you were very professional and very kind and you out logics me to figure out that even though he contributes a lot to the story.
• 18:41
  He isn't the story.
• 18:43
  My main character is Kala in the story and the only reason I was determined with Jabari was because those were my lightning scenes.
• 18:55
  Those were the ones that I wrote down first.
• 18:58
  He's the character I knew best at that time.
• 19:03
  And so once I chose Kala to be the, really the main character, I had to really get to know her before I could feel her voice flowing through.
• 19:15
  Yeah, and I think, I mean, a number of things, just to be clear, this is not me saying, I don't think you should choose this, but I'm listening to this writer telling me I'm just exactly what you said, unprompted.
• 19:26
  I'm a feminist.
• 19:27
  I want to tell this story from a woman's perspective.
• 19:30
  I want to show their power.
• 19:31
  And then you made a male, a main character who was going to get all the glory and all the agency.
• 19:36
  And I was like, I don't think this is, this is not, again, we talked to, you know, I talk about this a lot, but.
• 19:42
  But it's, it's not me saying it's not going to work.
• 19:44
  I'm sure it would have been a terrific book, but the point is that isn't what you actually meant to say.
• 19:50
  And so to think about it from the beginning and plan for that, it's pretty hard if you've got this main character energy being a male and, and you want them to, we're rooting for them above all others.
• 20:03
  It's their main story to get across a theme of feminism, for example, right?
• 20:08
  Like it's just gonna, you're going to have a more difficult time.
• 20:10
  So.
• 20:11
  We ended up, and it's hard, right, because you had some of those chapters drafted, like you said, in particular, you had a lot of the Jabari chapters already drafted, and so my suggestion was, because this is, this is important too, if you have a multi point of view story, and I see this a lot, where we don't think about that main character, and then you start with Jabari, well, automatically, The first character that we meet is going to be the one that the reader is hooked on, right?
• 20:37
  Um, the one that they are rooting for the most or the one that they assume is the main character.
• 20:41
  And so it can be really tricky or really confusing to then figure out later that somebody else is the main character.
• 20:48
  And so, yeah, so you had to do some thinking about that structure.
• 20:52
  I did.
• 20:53
  I did.
• 20:54
  And because I think of it like movies that run in my mind and I, that's how I see it.
• 21:00
  And that's how I want the audience to see it.
• 21:03
  As this, the same way I see it in my movie, in my mind, I want them to see it that way.
• 21:08
  And you know, I, once I started taking that perspective and going, he can't encapsulate, he can't encapsulate all of the things that I want, said, all the chords I want struck.
• 21:23
  And so it did take a a lot more, I'd already written 30,000 words before I met you and rewrote them and rewrote them and rewrote them.
• 21:32
  And I was kind of going like in a circular pattern, and I really believe that that was it.
• 21:38
  That was because I had them in the wrong order.
• 21:42
  So, I had to change the order of events.
• 21:45
  Not necessarily the characters themselves, just the order of events.
• 21:49
  And in order to get that first chapter moving.
• 21:53
  When Kala was going through her problems in the very beginning, I had to then put my background in that chapter instead of his chapter.
• 22:03
  So I did have to do some maneuvering there, moving things around.
• 22:07
  But once I did it, I really had a solid foundation I could leap from.
• 22:11
  And then I wrote another 30, 000 words.
• 22:14
  Yeah.
• 22:14
  So, yeah.
• 22:15
  And it just was coming.
• 22:17
  It just was coming and you had to get that.
• 22:20
  And so a lot of times, you know, when, when we work on things, if you can be open, if there's an issue, it doesn't mean rewriting it to not just talking about, she was rewriting it and rewriting it and writing over the same things again.
• 22:32
  That is not what coaching does.
• 22:34
  Right.
• 22:35
  In fact, it's like, okay, here's all the things that you were inspired by.
• 22:39
  What if we rearrange them a little bit, use them, tweak them, but to have them flow in a different way.
• 22:46
  So I want to talk about Game of Thrones in a minute because it comes up all the time when people say, when I tell writers, okay, it can only be one person's story and I get this argument.
• 22:56
  Well, Game of Thrones is a lot of people's stories or, or, um, dual points of view in particular in romance when you have that sort of back and forth between the two love interests.
• 23:06
  That, that it's both of their stories.
• 23:08
  And I would tell you that in the romance, it's not.
• 23:11
  It's going to be one or the other primarily that you're rooting for and the other one and how they grow and push one another kind of weaves together.
• 23:20
  But in Game of Thrones, it's a tricky one because people think that there's a lot of characters.
• 23:26
  But.
• 23:26
  I don't know if you remember, we probably talked about this because I do talk about it in some of my courses, but, but the, the main character there is the throne, right?
• 23:36
  So when, even Tanasha, you proved it when you said, I was watching that and I wanted a woman on the throne.
• 23:44
  So what you cared about, the only thing that you care about in that sequence is the throne.
• 23:49
  No, but you just, you just like totally made my case for me.
• 23:52
  You care about the throne.
• 23:53
  I love the story.
• 23:56
  I loved, I loved watching it.
• 23:58
  I loved reading it.
• 23:59
  It's just, that's what I wanted.
• 24:03
  Yeah.
• 24:03
  So in order to make that happen, I had to write it.
• 24:06
  But you felt passionately enough about it that you went out and wrote a whole book to fix what, what was bugging you, right?
• 24:12
  But what you were cheering for was the throne.
• 24:14
  And in that series, the throne takes on a life of its own and has kind of, like it almost calls people to it or pushes people away.
• 24:21
  And you feel like everything that happens is being controlled.
• 24:24
  And so, yeah, it's, it's not about each of their individual stories, it's actually that I would, I would argue that the plot, I haven't talked to George about this, but I would, I would, uh, I would argue that the plot is all based around that central character.
• 24:38
  And so then people will say to me, well, okay, then fine.
• 24:41
  My.
• 24:41
  My, my central character is the friend group.
• 24:45
  Well, maybe, right?
• 24:47
  And if you can make it as passionate, if you can make Tanasha root for the throne, right?
• 24:53
  Then, then maybe, right?
• 24:54
  And it's a very difficult construct.
• 24:56
  And, and you guys probably all know this, but Game of Thrones is not done.
• 25:00
  It's not wrapped it up.
• 25:01
  He has not finished it because it's such a difficult construct.
• 25:05
  Right.
• 25:05
  And so it's, it is a really difficult thing to do.
• 25:08
  So choosing all of these decisions.
• 25:10
  When I interviewed Jenny Nash earlier for the podcast, she mentioned.
• 25:16
  Yeah, all the decisions that you have to make in a book and that's exactly it is, you know, that first decision.
• 25:24
  If you can just choose a character and then weave everybody else around it, then it's going to make that path so much clearer and it's not going to feel like a bunch of scenes that you don't know what to do with.
• 25:34
  It's going to be a path that leads your reader all the way through.
• 25:39
  So, okay, so.
• 25:42
  I want to talk about you chose a very complicated book structure to write like you've got all these multiple points of view.
• 25:48
  You've got this huge world and I love that.
• 25:50
  I never tried to discourage you from it.
• 25:52
  I did.
• 25:53
  I did lay out.
• 25:54
  Okay, there's these complicated pieces.
• 25:57
  Sometimes I will discourage a writer, especially if they're like, I just want to write a full book.
• 26:01
  quick draft and get it out there.
• 26:03
  It's like, okay, well, here's the work that's gonna be involved in doing this structure.
• 26:08
  And sometimes, like, if you're really methodical and you do the work, it's gonna pay off.
• 26:13
  Like, your book is absolutely brilliant the way that it all weaves together in the end, right?
• 26:18
  How these characters, I won't give any spoilers, but they do end up, you know, kind of coinciding at some point.
• 26:26
  And so, Did this complicated structure weigh into your decision to approach this process so methodically?
• 26:34
  Because you're very disciplined about your writing.
• 26:36
  You have a very methodical way that you got this completed.
• 26:41
  It involves some math and some stickers, right?
• 26:44
  I'll let you explain that.
• 26:47
  But yeah, I mean, you, was that why you did it?
• 26:50
  Because it was so difficult?
• 26:51
  Or do you do that with all of your writing?
• 26:53
  Like even with flash fiction?
• 26:54
  I don't know.
• 26:55
  It depends.
• 26:56
  I like trying new things.
• 26:58
  And for this one though, remember I said this one was that.
• 27:02
  Flash that spark.
• 27:05
  And so I already had an idea of what I wanted it to be.
• 27:09
  And so to keep track of all of it, I did make different charts and graphs and trying to keep track of the magic and what it's based on.
• 27:22
  And one of the hard parts is doing the work of it is the hard part.
• 27:28
  The inspiration starts.
• 27:31
  That's fun.
• 27:31
  That's easy.
• 27:33
  It's already there.
• 27:35
  But for that stuff, I have to still figure out how I'm going to get to where I want to get using those powers or those abilities and using the politics and the cultures.
• 27:49
  And so it takes a lot more.
• 27:52
  A lot of decisions and a lot of the documents, a lot of the documents that you actually ended up using.
• 27:59
  So I like to call them brainstorming docs and you had a ton right to keep track of things and I call them brainstorming docs on purpose so that people don't think, okay, I'm going to go do this exercise and then it becomes a chapter in my book.
• 28:10
  It does not.
• 28:12
  Right.
• 28:12
  And since Tanasha is shaking her head.
• 28:14
  Yeah.
• 28:14
  And so, and so what was really fun about working with you Tanasha is that you are a student of writing.
• 28:20
  Okay.
• 28:20
  You.
• 28:21
  read more in writing than I do.
• 28:24
  And you know more, like, you know, as much about the different methodologies and you pull all of those things in.
• 28:29
  And so it was really fun because when we reached a point in the manuscript, when you realize that you didn't have the depth or you realized that you hadn't made a decision.
• 28:38
  You would use these really awesome tools to bring them back.
• 28:42
  Can you just share with us a couple of like the tools that you use or the types of documents?
• 28:47
  Cause I would get 20, you know, when you coach with me, you can send in 20 pages at a time to get feedback, but I would also get, I would get the 20 pages and then I get, here's the other documents I worked on this week and they were really awesome because they helped you make decisions.
• 29:02
  Do you want to just share with us some of the things if you can?
• 29:05
  Well, for, okay, so the book, the Affleck series is a young adult, three point of view book, and it's told in first person, and it's in a fantasy continent of a Kanye that has three kingdoms, and simultaneous coups happen where each of the royal families are wiped out, and any male bastard Or athling who could inherit the magic were chased down or pursued in order to keep them from inheriting, but they did, they failed to consider that it was female bastards.
• 29:46
  They didn't even think about that would be in, end up with some of that magic.
• 29:51
  And so in order to base my magic, I needed a deity that also.
• 29:59
  It's where it came from a mythology and so I love avatar and the dragon prince and I can name a bunch of them, but I like how they put it in the very beginning and they start to say in a world that kind of thing.
• 30:19
  I took the Dragon Prince in this case, and I did show you it was the Dragon Prince, and I wrote out the beginning of that show, what they always say to ground people in their world, and then I did it with my own.
• 30:33
  I just took the format of it and did it for myself, so that I would know.
• 30:39
  where the powers came from, how they were passed from one person to another.
• 30:45
  That was also a spreadsheet of the powers and how it got split and where it all went and how many threads there were.
• 30:51
  And like, it was fantastic.
• 30:53
  And I just got to read you this from the comments.
• 30:55
  Kim C.
• 30:56
  Tanasha, this sounds amazing.
• 30:58
  As do your methods to the madness of writing an epic fantasy, please teach me your ways, right?
• 31:03
  Like Just, it was just an incredible ride to watch you, but, but it can be easy to lose track as you're keeping all of these things.
• 31:12
  And so we kept a really tight inside outline.
• 31:16
  Jenny Nash's inside outline is what I used to teach.
• 31:18
  We kept it really tight.
• 31:19
  And so we'd be like, okay.
• 31:21
  But here's what we're actually filling in, but all of this can be used for decision making, but I think that you were really smart about it in that you knew that you couldn't just put that in your writing.
• 31:32
  And one of the mistakes that I see a lot of writers make is when they're trying to figure that out, they'll make it into a chapter about, you know, so and so got the magic from so and so got the magic from so and so and like all of this stuff.
• 31:44
  Doesn't belong in your book.
• 31:46
  I didn't want it to sound stilted.
• 31:49
  So that part of it was just for me, I just wrote it for me to, if I'm writing a scene, I have to stop and think about, okay, what's the whole purpose, what.
• 32:01
  Mythology in the attack, attaching it to even the outline.
• 32:05
  I remember coming to you and I go, I outlined it.
• 32:08
  I use this, this, this, this, this, and this.
• 32:12
  And you said, well, I think it might help if you use this outline to do it.
• 32:17
  And I remember that you, I don't know if you remember, but you only told me to do this in five pages.
• 32:24
  You said use five pages.
• 32:26
  I said three.
• 32:27
  I said three.
• 32:28
  At first, and then I convinced you I needed a few more pages.
• 32:31
  But I was like, alright, fine, you got three characters, you can do it, fine.
• 32:33
  But when it ended up, when I really dived in, and I knew my story, I ended up with 16 pages.
• 32:42
  And it was starting to flow together.
• 32:44
  It had that part that, where it was solid, solid scenes.
• 32:50
  And it was flowing as a story and that really helped with the inside out.
• 32:56
  And it was magic, right?
• 32:57
  And I think one of the things that was funny about, because you're, you are very methodical and that is such a strength and you got really stuck on the, I want to go 1, 2, 3 for the characters.
• 33:08
  I want to go 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, right?
• 33:11
  Like I want each one to be.
• 33:13
  And we ended up doing that pretty much.
• 33:15
  I think maybe at the end, there was a couple.
• 33:17
  Did we ever break that?
• 33:19
  I can't remember now.
• 33:20
  Tell me, did you break it?
• 33:21
  At the end, I shorten it to go quicker.
• 33:26
  Well, anyways, not to spoil it, but there may or may not have been more than one character in the scenes.
• 33:31
  And so she didn't need to do that anymore.
• 33:33
  When the world's kind of aligned.
• 33:34
  But they still have to go in order for me.
• 33:36
  It's just the way my brain works.
• 33:38
  Yeah, no, and it was great.
• 33:39
  It kept you on track.
• 33:40
  One of the most exciting parts of this entire book is the world and the magic system that you created.
• 33:47
  Can you share a bit about where it came from and how you came up with such a fantastical world?
• 33:52
  So you said.
• 33:52
  You know, some of the influences and some of the deities, but where did that, where did that spark of that idea come from?
• 34:00
  Cause it's, I mean, it grew over time, but where is the original one?
• 34:04
  I was actually working on a different book at the time and I had gotten through the first draft of it.
• 34:11
  And I was starting on the second book when I had this idea for this book.
• 34:16
  And although I love the other book too, that book is going to probably be that series.
• 34:25
  And so this one I thought of and it was I just knew I could picture it in my mind that it was three books and it just kept coming.
• 34:35
  And so it's like Legos.
• 34:37
  I started off with that foundation stuff and I'm big on characters.
• 34:42
  So characters were big on my foundation.
• 34:46
  And then I started to build the world and I started to build the, the politics.
• 34:52
  And, and as it, I took some things out and put new things in so that it would work for the story I wanted to tell.
• 35:01
  I think Stephen King said something like that, like make your world into the story you want it to tell.
• 35:07
  I mean, so I started making up things to fit in this world so that I wanted it.
• 35:16
  Yeah, that was one of the things that you also had to make some decisions about early on because initially you had all three worlds with kings and queens and then, you know, they were starting to kind of blend together.
• 35:27
  And so one of the things that you did was you actually took a step back and said, No, I got to have different political structures and different names for them and so that they, you know, We talk about, especially because you wrote in first person, you have three points of view, and you have three completely different worlds that you're writing about, or not different worlds, but different territories that you're writing about with different characters.
• 35:47
  And so the easiest way to ground us in where that was, it's in first person.
• 35:51
  So like, it's a little bit disorienting to be like, now I'm somebody else, right?
• 35:55
  I am somebody else.
• 35:57
  And so the more that you built around that, the easier it became, the language was different.
• 36:03
  The voice was different.
• 36:04
  All of the things were different so that your reader was like able to actually orient themselves every time you dropped us in.
• 36:12
  And they probably, I know, even though you did one, two, three, one, two, three, and it was in order for you.
• 36:18
  The reader, we talk about this, the grounding, and I know that you, you really picked up on that, that's something that you check in every scene because you have to, because your, your structure, you are somebody who goes through at the top of every single scene and make sure that you've got the grounding right, which is who's cat are we in, right?
• 36:36
  Where are we?
• 36:37
  Those are the two that you really had to do.
• 36:39
  And then who is in the scene and where are we in time and space relative to where we just left, right?
• 36:43
  Those four things.
• 36:44
  Yeah.
• 36:44
  are the grounding, but for you, they had to be so clear because they're all I, uh, they're all I.
• 36:52
  And so you had to be really clear and you had to make those worlds really different, which you did a fantastic job of.
• 36:57
  Okay.
• 36:58
  So as you know, this interview is for my podcast, my new podcast, Show Don't Tell Writing.
• 37:03
  You know that I could talk about this all day long.
• 37:07
  How does the concept of showing play into your scenes when you're writing that fantasy novel?
• 37:14
  Sometimes it comes naturally and then sometimes as I'm writing and I know what the scene is, if I know that's a spot where I need to put it, I just put in brackets, you know, include really depressive feelings here, or I will like express it later.
• 37:34
  Sometimes in the beginning, it's harder for me to do that as you.
• 37:38
  As you noticed, when we were going through the book, it was easier for me to do that at the end.
• 37:43
  But in the beginning, I didn't know my characters as well.
• 37:47
  So once I really got to know them, it came a lot easier to be able to show how they felt about the environment, what things annoyed them, what things were bothering them in the environment.
• 38:00
  So you would all automatically kind of see who it is, you know, in, in the way they spoke.
• 38:07
  And the way they made decisions or the things that they thought about.
• 38:11
  And so that made that a lot easier.
• 38:14
  I was very confused with show don't tell when I was doing flash fiction.
• 38:19
  But one of the things I found was the, I could tell the story faster if I included those things.
• 38:26
  And so I did, even though this one is 110, 000 words right now, which is totally appropriate for a YA epic fantasy.
• 38:34
  That is fine.
• 38:35
  You know, sometimes I'll say.
• 38:38
  But that's too long.
• 38:39
  If you're writing your first novel in other places, then, then maybe that's too long.
• 38:43
  But here, that's completely appropriate.
• 38:45
  So know your word count.
• 38:46
  You know, you've done your research.
• 38:48
  I just love by the end of the book, when you're submitting pages, sometimes you'd be like, You put your own comment in almost like people say that they can hear my voice in their head, right?
• 38:58
  Like you're learning.
• 38:59
  You're like, I know insert a few showing details here, right?
• 39:03
  Insert a few showing details here.
• 39:05
  And, and sometimes that was really fun.
• 39:07
  Cause I would be like, how about this?
• 39:08
  How about that?
• 39:09
  And then I just get to go off.
• 39:10
  Right.
• 39:11
  And, uh, sometimes, I mean, You know, when your editor makes suggestions, if you love them, keep them, right?
• 39:17
  You don't have to, like, that's, that's, that's part of it.
• 39:20
  But sometimes it's even more fun if you're like, Susie, you're off the wall.
• 39:23
  My character would never do that.
• 39:25
  Right.
• 39:25
  And I have to be brave as an editor.
• 39:28
  I have to be brave because I'm guessing, right?
• 39:30
  I'm like, I'm trying to show you.
• 39:32
  What could go there, but I'm not in your head.
• 39:34
  I don't know what that character might do as well as you will.
• 39:38
  So then they could, they could sort of, you know, even if you're like, Susie, that's totally off the wall.
• 39:44
  It's sometimes it's awesome.
• 39:45
  Cause you'd be like, okay, no, they would never say this, but then you know what they would.
• 39:48
  Right.
• 39:49
  And so that's a conversation I have with writers.
• 39:51
  Right.
• 39:51
  It's not that I want you to like, take my ideas or like over, I'm trying to push you.
• 39:57
  To figure this stuff out.
• 39:59
  Right.
• 39:59
  And, and a few times, but I did take your advice in a couple of times, but you didn't take offense, which I was very happy about.
• 40:10
  You're the god of your own story.
• 40:13
  You know, like the, the nice thing about working.
• 40:17
  I am stubborn too.
• 40:19
  Probably.
• 40:20
  Aren't we all?
• 40:20
  Aren't we all?
• 40:21
  Do you have plans for book two?
• 40:23
  I mean, we just talked about like 18 books that you're planning to write.
• 40:26
  So, so now that you have tackled and finished your first novel and you're going to be, you know, getting it out into the world and querying and finding it a home next, and that's a whole other topic.
• 40:37
  How are you going to, how is that process and what you've learned going to change how you approach book two?
• 40:43
  And what is it?
• 40:44
  What are you going to work on next?
• 40:45
  I am doing book two.
• 40:47
  I wanted two and three with it.
• 40:48
  When I envisioned it, it was a trilogy.
• 40:51
  And in the first book, I mainly wanted to establish the world, the magic system, and the characters.
• 41:00
  So I needed to have that all in place, and I started taking some things out of the first book and saving it for the second book and saying, no, this belongs in the next book, the expansion of it.
• 41:15
  And you kept telling me I couldn't go over a certain number of words.
• 41:20
  I had to say, okay, this can wait till later.
• 41:23
  Well, you'll end up with, you know, your, your hope is, is to pursue a more traditional route, right?
• 41:30
  And so and so you've gotta pay attention to what the reader's expectations are in that.
• 41:35
  Okay.
• 41:35
  I'm gonna flip to questions.
• 41:37
  I'm excited to see Travis, do you have tips for a beginner writer?
• 41:42
  I have the materials and resources to make a good book, but I don't know how.
• 41:47
  He's a former police officer and has three boxes of reports.
• 41:50
  And tickets to write about covering six years of law enforcement.
• 41:54
  So you've got a lot of material, as you do, like your ideas and everything.
• 41:58
  What, what's your best advice for a newer writer taking all of those ideas and turning them into something?
• 42:05
  For me, and I won't, I'm saying that as a caveat because I know other people do it differently, but for me, characters come first.
• 42:14
  And so I know who I want in that situation and I start to build on them.
• 42:18
  Like I said, taught the 16 personality traits, the Myers Briggs, and I'll go through and make a file and it's literally a file folder and I open it up and I have a picture similar to what I want that person to look like and who I want that person to be and what angst there they went through.
• 42:45
  What lessons I want them to learn through throughout the book.
• 42:49
  And so then I can put them in those situations and be able to explain why they feel the way they do and why they react the way they do.
• 42:58
  And so it could be real reactions because now I know who they are.
• 43:02
  So I start out with, I mean, even though I wanted somebody to be on the throne, I start off with who they are first.
• 43:09
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 43:10
  And I think Travis also added in the, um, in the comments, and that's what I was going to ask you, but you read my mind, Travis, that he is the main character of this book.
• 43:18
  And I think, Travis, so what you're writing is technically a memoir, which would be sort of your own experiences, because it's true, and you want to write it in probably an entertaining format, right?
• 43:29
  And so one thing that you can choose, like Tanasha, you may have a million books in you.
• 43:34
  I think she's got a million books in her brain.
• 43:37
  But choose that story arc.
• 43:39
  So choose yourself as the main character.
• 43:41
  And make yourself the backbone and then pick and choose the stories and which ones you use in which situations and show that growth.
• 43:49
  So I don't know, like, depending on where you're going, bookend that growth.
• 43:54
  It's not when you became a rookie cop and then you retired, right?
• 43:57
  We don't want that whole story.
• 43:59
  That might end up coming out.
• 44:00
  I don't know what your timeline is, but pick something, pick something that really pushed you to grow and change because that is what readers are going to want.
• 44:08
  And you can pick a small slice of it and then you've got more books, right?
• 44:12
  So pick a small slice, map out what you want to show, and then pick and choose those ticketing scenarios or the files or whatever that you want those scenes to build in order to show your, your arc of change.
• 44:26
  Does that make sense?
• 44:27
  And then you might have more than one memoir.
• 44:29
  Yeah.
• 44:30
  When I did memoir, what I'm working on now.
• 44:35
  That I'm not supposed to be working on is to go through and like, I know that Forrest Gump is in a memoir, but it's something we're all familiar with.
• 44:45
  So if you were to think of it like that, you didn't see just a typical day, you went right for the person that we got to know at Forrest went right for those big things.
• 44:58
  That changed his life and how it moves on from there, every scene then is connected and how that changes life changes perspective changed how he reacted to things.
• 45:13
  And I think it's a good example of a snapshot of a portion of his life, not a timeline.
• 45:23
  And I love Forrest Gump, as an example, it's like a faux memoir, right?
• 45:27
  Like you feel like it's real, but it isn't.
• 45:29
  And, and I actually did work on a memoir with a writer this year.
• 45:33
  And one of her comparables is Forrest Gump, even though it's a memoir, because she literally was somebody who was in all the right places in her long career and at all the right times.
• 45:44
  And she was like the first doing so many things in her, in her life that were shocking and amazing and, and just really incredible.
• 45:51
  So.
• 45:52
  Yeah, Forrest Gump, good example.
• 45:53
  Okay, John.
• 45:55
  wants to know Tanasha, how much time do you work on profiles in lieu of writing the story?
• 46:01
  He says, I haven't done that yet, but I have characters in mind, and I think that's a baggage from just writing short stories.
• 46:08
  So how much time, like, are you balancing?
• 46:11
  And Tanasha's project, just to be clear, is super complex.
• 46:15
  And the way that it came to her was very complex.
• 46:18
  So she used those for organizational.
• 46:20
  So depending on your project, you may not have all of that, you know, in a, in a fantasy, you've got to come up with a magic system.
• 46:27
  She built three worlds, right?
• 46:29
  She's basically writing three books at a time.
• 46:31
  So she had a lot more information, but do you want to share how much, I don't know the answer to this.
• 46:36
  How much time do you spend on that versus the writing?
• 46:38
  I can get lost in character profiles because it's also something I used in teaching.
• 46:44
  But I like to get to know people.
• 46:46
  I like to know what, what makes them tick.
• 46:49
  And so by going through those though, I was able to ask myself, once I chose a personality for this person, what are other personalities that will conflict with this person and they could become other characters.
• 47:04
  And I would ask myself, okay, so he's this personality.
• 47:10
  How would he handle this person that comes up and says, You can't come here.
• 47:17
  You can't help these people, but you want to help, you know?
• 47:19
  So I would ask myself questions of that and put it in my profile.
• 47:23
  So I knew the person.
• 47:25
  Really, really well.
• 47:26
  I myself am an INTJ, which is kind of a bad guy.
• 47:31
  We're not that far.
• 47:32
  I'm ENTJ.
• 47:33
  For those of you who have never, you know, if you're younger than us, you may not have ever done the Myers Briggs personality test.
• 47:39
  There's other, there's so many other ones out with, this is the OG.
• 47:43
  I'm the INTJ.
• 47:44
  So I'm the criminal mastermind.
• 47:46
  Nice.
• 47:49
  You're the sleeper.
• 47:50
  You're the like, right?
• 47:52
  Yeah.
• 47:53
  Once I found that out, I was like, I'm comfortable with it, but I've tested three times and I'm pretty solidly INTJ, but I know how I would react to things, but it was a learning experience to find out how others would react to things.
• 48:08
  So their experience is not the same and my reaction would not be the same as theirs.
• 48:15
  So I had to learn the other personalities to really get.
• 48:20
  What makes them tick and what makes them make their decisions and it really helps with dialogue.
• 48:25
  Yeah, and we're all different and that's exactly it is, you know, they say write what you know, but you don't want to make everybody exactly like yourself.
• 48:33
  That's part of the fun of it and part of the learning that you do as a writer is to put yourself in your character's shoes and to kind of.
• 48:39
  Like, you know, not in a cultural way, you know, but, but in a reactionary way, for sure.
• 48:45
  Try it out.
• 48:46
  Try on different personalities.
• 48:47
  Awesome.
• 48:48
  So what is your best writing advice that you would like to share with the world, Tanasha, that you have learned that you wish everybody knew?
• 48:57
  I wish everybody knew, let's see, your story is important.
• 49:03
  What you want to say is important and other people do want to hear it.
• 49:07
  For the longest time, I was writing for myself.
• 49:09
  And I was like, nobody else wants to hear that.
• 49:12
  Nobody else wants that.
• 49:14
  And my aunt came along and read that, that poetry and said it spoke to her.
• 49:20
  You know, and that to me was a big encouragement that I could know that Somewhere out there, there are people like me who will love this book or love what I'm saying.
• 49:32
  They're gonna love this book.
• 49:33
  So a few people, just so you know, you could have sold a few copies today.
• 49:38
  People are asking to find your book at the margin.
• 49:40
  Um, so just to be clear, Tanasha has just finished all her revision cycles.
• 49:45
  And so she does not, she has not decided how or where or what to publish.
• 49:49
  That's next.
• 49:50
  What she's tackling next, we wanted to bring her on the show to show you guys when she's still fresh in the thick of it and not talking about, you know, I love talking with writers about their launches and their promotions and their publishers and all those things, but really it starts with writing an amazing story.
• 50:07
  And it starts with discipline.
• 50:09
  I do meet with my writing partner, Cass, three times a week.
• 50:14
  At the library away from home away from responsibilities or the phone ringing in order to we share our goals and we get right to work.
• 50:23
  And so it's accountability as well.
• 50:27
  You're your own boss.
• 50:28
  And for me, that's not a great thing because I'll tell myself it's okay not to do something.
• 50:34
  It forces you to progress.
• 50:37
  Yeah, forces you to progress and it's really good for those days where you go, I don't have any spark.
• 50:45
  I don't have any spark.
• 50:46
  Let me see where I can go.
• 50:49
  And then maybe it'll spark later.
• 50:51
  And sometimes it does.
• 50:53
  They have a mind of their own, these characters, anyway.
• 50:56
  Yeah! And people say that, right?
• 50:58
  You can hear them and you can only control them so much, but sometimes it's awesome when they, when they, when they take off on their own.
• 51:05
  Okay.
• 51:05
  This has been amazing, Tanasha.
• 51:07
  I hope you're feeling awesome because people are so thankful.
• 51:11
  Thank you, Tanasha, for coming.
• 51:12
  for having me.
• 51:12
  Bye, guys! Bye! Thanks for tuning in to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vidori.
• 51:25
  Help me continue to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing.
• 51:29
  planning to write.
• 51:30
  Please consider subscribing to this podcast and leaving a review on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening.
• 51:37
  Also visit suzyvedorey.
• 51:39
  com period slash newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list to stay inspired and be the first to know about upcoming training.
• 51:47
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• 51:47
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• 51:49
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• 51:58
  Transcribed by https: Remember, drop book, your writing is gonna open doors you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make it the absolute best to convene.
• 52:08
  Transcribed by https: You're feeling called to write that book.
• 52:09
  Transcribed by https: Keep going and I'll be right here cheering you on.
• 52:13
  Transcribed by https: See you again next week.