Latest / Glovisor Podcast / Broadway Is a Business of Risk - Sue Gilad on Turning Ideas Into Hits (In Fine Company) [Ep 56]
Transcript
- Joe: Behind every Broadway hit is a business machine, and behind the curtain is the blueprint entrepreneurs never get to see. Welcome to the Glovisor Podcast, where we explore business growth, communication, and personal development through real conversations with people that make an impact. Our guest is a Grammy and five-time Tony Award-winning Broadway producer and co-founder of Infine Company. For more than two decades, she's helped bring shows like Willin Rouge the Musical, Jagged Little Pill, and Angels in America from unproven ideas on paper to celebrated Broadway hits. Glovisor welcomes Sue Gilad Sue Gilad: Hey Joe, I want to take you with me everywhere I go. What's Joe: Yeah. Sue Gilad: so lovely? Hi, I'm so happy to be here. Joe: Looking forward to it. All right, so Sue, let's begin. Most people get to see the performance. We're all sitting here looking at these amazing shows, but you get to see the business side of it. What does producing a Broadway show actually look like behind a curtain? Sue Gilad: Well, I often say, Joe, that broadway producing is really entrepreneurship in one of the craziest businesses imaginable because we're assessing the risk, we're building the teams, we're raising the capital, we're marketing a product, we're managing enormous personalities, and then we have to respond to failure and hopefully we create something that people are willing to leave their homes and pay a lot of money to experience. So Each show is its own entrepreneurial venture. The success of one show will not necessarily assume or beget the success of another. And really the odds are against us in theater because 80% of the shows that we produce that make it to Broadway statistically, 80% of them won't make their money back while they're on Broadway. So you really have to have a long-tailed longevity point of view. So we know that Broadway will be the stamp of approval as seen on Broadway. And then off we go on our North American tour. Off we go to Australia, to the West End in London, off we go to the Netherlands, Germany, Japan, Korea. Our show, The Outsiders, will have its very first international production in Korea in 2027 in the summer. So everything that we have to do is bootstrapping with no foreknowledge that it might actually work. But then, if our audiences like it, then we have to focus on it for a very long time as it rolls out to the other 8 billion people in the world. Joe: Wow, you know what blows my mind is that these shows start with these unproven ideas. So how did you evaluate these raw ideas into becoming these hits? Sue Gilad: So for musicals in particular, I gravitate towards musicals, Joe, or plays that operate like musicals. And that means you're gonna have a very long development period because it's a collaborative art form. Which, by the way, in this age of AI, I think we're so proudly analog. I think we're gonna save civilization with theater because you have to collaborate to do it. So musicals, because you have the book writer, the lyricist, the composer, the director, the choreographer, the costume designer, sets projections, everyone coming and creating that same work of art together. It takes a tremendous amount of time. So the average Broadway show will be anywhere between five and ten years to get to Broadway. So the first thing that I look for is an evergreen title and an evergreen topic. So you won't see me producing a show anytime soon that is about today's political climate. Maybe it will be political issues that continue to To challenge us over time. For example, last night we had a group at Buena Vista Social Club on Broadway, and this is a beautiful show that toggles between 1950 Cuba and 1990s Cuba and deals with when the political atmosphere becomes personal and affects the person. But it walks a very fine line, not talking about or making a judgment about what's happening in politics. Rather, you learn to care about this. From following one person's story. So I'm gonna look for stories that are evergreen, like Moulin Rouge, like The Outsiders, like Purple Rain that we have coming to Broadway in 2027, and stories that people care about generationally, because I know it's not just about getting to Broadway in these five to ten years. It's about what happens in the five, 10, 20 years following as the rest of the world gets to discover us as well. Joe: Now, how many stories do you get to read through to really identify those shows that you want to pursue? Sue Gilad: Did you write a play? Is that what you're telling me? Joe: Yes. I wish. Sue Gilad: we so we first of all we're very privileged that we get pitched a lot. So and we have readers who will read scripts for us because it's just too many and we really do try. Somebody on our team tries to read absolutely everything. And then also because Broadway is an expensive notion, we jump on shows and co-produce and we have other co-producers that will work with us so that it's never just one person. So we'll go to developmental readings and developmental workshops. And that can be really exciting because if Gloria Estefan wrote a musical, she did, we'll be sitting in the room and she's watching it as well. And you're seeing it, no sets, no costumes, no magic, no lights, just simply the best actors in the world standing at music stands and reading through and singing through the script. And it's our job to identify is there enough of a juicy story here? Does it do all the highs and all the lows and give you catharsis? And by the end, maybe you're sobbing or maybe you're screaming with laughter, hopefully both. Is this a show that I'll be able to invest the next five to ten years in and champion it everywhere I go so that it gets itself to Broadway and then out into the hinterlands? So we when we're not putting up a show right this moment. We are going to as many developmental readings and workshops as possible. And that happens over time in the life of a show because you want to make sure you have an audience. We never know if a show is going to work until there's an audience. So we usually do an out-of-town tryout in a city that mirrors New York. So the outsiders started in La Jolla, California, the La Jolla Playhouse. Moulin Rouge started in Boston at the Emerson Colonial. Purple Rain, of course, Minneapolis, Prince's hometown, where they were like, you know, it was like a rock concert. It was amazing. So we're our director and and our choreographers, they're paying attention to what's going on on stage. So are we, but I'm paying more attention to my audience. What I'm looking for, Joe, is like that moment when you lean in and you've you're just mesmerized by what's happening on stage. What I'm also looking for, more importantly, in early development, is like where are people kind of like fumbling for their phones, like, no, I'm not supposed to watch them. Be on my phone because I'm watching a show, but I'm restless and looking at the other audience members. And those are the moments that I know. Great, we're gonna go back and review that with the creatives. Joe: what's interesting to me personally is how do you have more bandwidth than the rest of us? Because as a producer, how many productions are you working on at one time? Sue Gilad: So this is the moment that I tell you that I actually am obsessed. I have been a theater kid since birth. My big sister went to dance class, so I went to dance class, but I don't know if you know this, Joe. You're not supposed to talk in dance class. So obviously that was a terrible place for me. And they said, loudmouth, go next door to the musical theater kids. They never shut up. and I I really I loved that environment. I was never very good at the acting, singing, or dancing, but I was I was transfixed by the all of us coming together as strangers and then making this piece where everyone is equally important. The star, the stage manager, the third tree from the left. That was usually me. and I was on stage as an actor for quite a long time, making friends with people who had real talent. And then, luckily, super lucky, after years of doing that, some of my friends said, Look, you're the biggest theater fan we've ever met, Sue. I wrote this thing. How do you feel about producing it? And I was like, yay, of course I'll produce it. What does that mean? What do I need to do? And that's how it happened. And so, well, you know, you need to you need to find the theater and and pick the director and raise the funds and sell the tickets and never shut up about it. And I thought I would pay money to do this. So for me, nothing that I do occurs as work, but also my kids know if they want to find me. They'll find me in a theater. Joe: Now you brought up raising funds. How difficult is it to raise funds for new startup musicals? Sue Gilad: Yeah, it's as hard as the show is a fit for you. So I always know, and this is my cheat sheet, if I am having challenges raising the funds for a show, I need to give a hard look at that show. Maybe, however wonderful it is, however good it looks on paper, maybe it's not my show. Maybe it's not the show that resonates with me. And that's where the art comes into play. This is where it's so subjective, Joe, that people in grown-up business, business that actually its job is to make money, real estate, finance, they are baffled by theater. Because theater at its core is art. And art is subjective. And you can have one per you are gonna love one show and you're gonna recommend to your audience, see the show, and then you're gonna get I rate podcast viewers that are like, I hated that, how dare you Joe. Subjective. So when we raise funds, if I am shouting it to the hinterlins and everybody is like, I am absolutely on board with that show. It might not be the best show in the world, but it's my show, and I'm really proud of it. So, how we go about raising funds, my gosh, there are a million different ways. So initially it's front money, we call it front money in the business, and that means we don't even have the option to produce the show yet. We need to actually get the ball rolling with some contracts. So that's lawyers' fees and our general manager's fees. And front money is considered such high risk, as in you don't know if the show will even happen. that we actually give, we promise all of our producer profits down the line for that amount of funds, we give those away. So if we have an a a successful show front money is going to be very expensive for us. And then as you get closer to production, once you have a workshop, once you have a script and the script has those two magic words, the end, woohoo, then you have something a little more special. You've shown that you've put in sweat equity. So the terms to the investors or the producers will go down. And then by the time you have like locked in a Broadway theater, as we just locked in the majestic theater for Purple Rain. I mean, Purple Rain, all the funds were invested a long time ago. You can't get into that show. But usually by the time you get a Broadway theater, that's when you raise the bulk of the funds, because now you're going to be looking at advertising, marketing, rehearsals, your cast, your costumes, all the things to make the thing, right? So but as you get closer to actual production and having a real show, the terms become less attractive. Joe: So after everything you described, the chances of making any money for these investors is very small. Why do they keep doing Sue Gilad: Well, I can Joe: it? Sue Gilad: I can promise you a really good opening night party. And sometimes people will just want to meet Josh Groban, right? Honestly, and that's fine, that's a good reason to invest. we will equate it with alternative sleeve We will say, okay, you're a family office and your recommendation is to buy a Picasso. That's excellent, that's fantastic. But what about today's artist that might become the next Picasso in 10, 20, 50 years? So what we say with our art is it's all alternative sleeve. It might become a moulin rouge or it might never even open on Broadway. And we have a fund actually because we want to mitigate the risk of our investors because our track record is is getting better over time, I would say. And we do, we've been so fortunate with the show. Our shows, people love our shows, and we're very, very lucky. So we just created a fund so we can say you can have exposure to these five shows that we have coming down the pike. And some of them have already been so successful on Broadway that we're putting them out on tour, and that's where we're going to put your funds in something that's as close to guaranteed income as possible. Because on a tour, in effect, you're renting the show to each individual theater. So the the risk is as as low as risk can be in theater. Still high risk, but lower. So why would you invest in theater? A, you're like me, you are bonkers for Broadway, and you just want to be close to the magic. You want to have an incredible night. You want to be able to have access to the press before the press comes out. You want to have bragging rights. You want to maybe have a slight chance at a runaway hit that's gonna run internationally like a Moulin Rouge, like what we think will happen with Purple Rain. Who knows? but if you need to pay rent next month, you know what? Just buy a ticket in the mezzanine, cheer us on, and be the person who starts the standing ovation. And that's good enough for me because my directive, my personal feeling is to turn every kid into a theater kid and I don't care how I do it. Joe: Now, even before the first ticket is sold, how much money is invested in these productions? Sue Gilad: Yeah. So we've seen a huge escalation in costs because of really two things, supply chain and labor. So the average, the average Broadway musical used to be somewhere between 10 million and 20 million dollars. You contrast that with a play, which is about 4 million to 10 million, 10 million if it has bankable stars above title. So the musical used to be 10 million to 20 million. Moulin Rouge was an outlier when it opened on Broadway in 2019. It was a $28 million raise, which in today's dollars would be about $34 million, Joe. But now what we're starting to see is $25 to 30 million all in is becoming the norm to go from initial option all the way to opening night. Now you hope that once you open, Then your ticket sales and your merchandise sales will actually cover your weekly costs for doing business, but you want to leave a couple million contingency in there just in case things go south. So what's now becoming more and more common is a $30 million raise all in for a Broadway show that's opening this coming season. And the way to do it, it really does take a village. So we're seeing a lot more producers, general partners. Co-producers, people who will raise parts of the funds in exchange for being part of the production and maybe sitting in the room while the decisions are being made and learning at the feet of how I learned was being a co-producer on other people's shows and going, What decisions are you making today? You know, because I there was no master's degree in producing when I came up in the industry. Now I think there is, actually, which I wouldn't mind taking or maybe teaching. but it's it's a lot. It's a lot of team building. And what I really love about it, really love, especially since every conversation in the last year has been AI, is we are really the opposite of. You have to be in the room where it happens. And honestly, a lot of people who work in tech, they will come to the theater as as the balance for what's going on in their real life, staring at a screen all day. Joe: Now producing a show seems to be a startup. Every Sue Gilad: Mm. Joe: single project seems to be a new startup for you. Sue Gilad: And that's the joy. If you're A D D, if you were the kid in school where you know your math teacher said sit down, then producing is the perfect thing for you because you raise Joe: Yeah. Sue Gilad: one baby and you pay attention to it and you feed it and you water it and then you share it with the world. That's your Broadway opening. And if the world likes you and you hope they do, then a part of you gets to focus on selling tickets and advertising and bringing new niche markets and then going out on tour and then you know gradually expanding outward like a child does. And then at the same time you have one or two or seven shows in various stages of development because it does take a very long time to get to Broadway. So it's it's not only encouraged but it's required in my profession to make sure you have several, if not many balls that you're juggling at the same time because you never know. Because again, art Joe, you never know when your show is gonna pop and the world is gonna say, It's ready. Or conversely, one of the theater owners will say, one show that was supposed to come in fell through. Are you ready? Joe: What an opportunity. Sue Gilad: listen, if that's your vibe, if you thrive on bonkers madness, if you thrive on Joe: Ha ha ha. Sue Gilad: being on instability, I would say and there are a lot of people who do. I'm I'm just lucky that I'm both a theater kid and I really like playing games that aren't safe. I would say this is not safe, but in the best, most joyous, most self expressed way. 'Cause you know Theater kids, until we find each other, we're a little bit lost. And then we find each other, and all of a sudden the world makes sense again. So one of the initiatives we have that I'm really proud of at the outside, I don't know if you know the outsiders, right? It's a famous book. Susie Hinton wrote it. The Greasers, The Socies, Tulsa, 1967. And it tells the story of the haves and the have nots, which, Joe, a universal story, particularly in America, particularly now. So we have the Outsiders on Broadway and it really speaks to young men in particular. So we have an initiative, the Stay Gold Project, that brings in high school students from high schools in the New York area that have never seen a Broadway show, pays for their tickets so they come for free. And then we have a pretty robust study guide that goes along with it so that their teachers can actually talk about the themes and they can really make it personal for them. So one of my favorite things is to stand at the base of the mezzanine and watch them as they watch our epic rumble scene, our crazy fight scene in the rain and the mud and everybody's getting bloody and it's i i you have to see it to believe it. But I watch them watch the show and I can point out for you three theater kids that never knew they were theater kids before. It happens every single performance and it gives me chills every time. So I just Joe: Two Sue Gilad: I want theater to be like one percent as cool and one percent as funded as sports. That's all. Joe: conversion in live action. You get to see it right then and there. Sue Gilad: It's special and I will say something that technology does for us that's really wonderful, Joe, is we have Hamilton on Disney Plus. We have a show called a beautiful show called Come From Away on Apple that you can watch. Legally Blonde has a complete and total screen capture on YouTube. You can watch all of these YouTube for free. and we find theater kids who are in places where they don't go to the theater, they don't have a theater, it's not part of their culture, it's not part of their family. I'm a theater kid because my mom was an English teacher and she loved good stories. So she would introduce me to incredible literature. I became such a bookworm, and then we would go to see shows that were wildly inappropriate on Broadway, but again, before internet, before cell phones, you'd just walk up to the half-price booth and say, What do you have available? So here I am seeing shows at age 13 that are like, these are not topics you should be watching. But I felt so Safe and seen in the audience as this story was unfolding in front of me. It just wanted to be there forever. Joe: Now, as a producer, what would you say is your biggest challenge? Is it the team? Is it the funding? The strategy, the execution? Sue Gilad: Okay, so my my biggest challenge first is when nobody cares. When we raise you know, you raise your baby. Anyone who has kids understands this. Don't you think your kid is the most magnificent human in the world? And then they don't Joe: Absolutely. Sue Gilad: get into the preschool of their choice, or some kid throws dirt in them in the playground and you're like, What on earth? Well, each of my shows is a baby that I believe in one hundred percent and that important to me. And then a critic says No. You know, or Reddit. People on Reddit, they see it in previews and they say, Here's what's horrible about this show. I will say the flip side of that is we get a lot of like our own focus groups information when a show's an early development and super, super theater insiders, kids like me, voice their opinion on the internet. Sometimes that will change the trajectory of the show and fix it and make it better. So you guys keep chattering. those of you who are chattering on the internet with early development, keep doing it. We need you. but first and foremost. You put all your heart and all your soul into it and you don't get good reviews and you don't get audiences coming even once. Forget about what we want is audiences coming back again. You know, at the outsiders we call them insiders, people who come back five, ten, thirty times. At Moulin Rouge, there's a famous dance called the Can Can. You know it, Joe. It's a knee Joe: Yes. Sue Gilad: and a kick and a knee right. So the the the super fans at Moulin Rouge, we call them The fan fans, right? They come back again and again and do the can can with us. And we love those people. But if you have a show, and and every producer has had this show, sometimes many times, where it just doesn't go. It doesn't even get to Broadway. It doesn't open on Broadway. It doesn't have a North American tour. It has trouble getting a regional out-of-town tryout. That for me is devastating and it's a part of our business. So the profound rejection is real. And that's why I think I'm grateful that I started out as an actor. And remember, I mentioned not a very good actor. So I got rejected all the time. So rejection to me is okay. It actually gives me fuel. But you have to be ready for that in our industry. It is an industry of closed doors. It is an industry of no. It is an industry of the deck is stacked against you artistically and fiscally. So you've got to have a pretty thick skin in order to stay with it. Joe: our whole lives, we've heard it made it to Broadway, it's on Broadway. What is the process of getting on Broadway? Sue Gilad: Yeah, that's a great question, Joe. So there are 42 Broadway theaters. many of them are owned by names you might know, the Schuberts, Niederlanders, and then what used to be Drew Jamse was just purchased by ATG, the Ambassador Theater Group, which has a huge hold in Europe. Really, they do both theater ownership and theater management. They do it beautifully. And then you also have a few nonprofits on Broadway, like Lincoln Center and The Roundabout and Manhattan Theater Club. So, if you want your show to be on Broadway, somebody of that group has to say yes to you. with a show like The Outsiders, we were very fortunate that the Schuberts took a shine to it early on. So we knew in fairly early development with the outsiders that we would be in a Schubert theater, and we the theater we got, and this is another concern because a Broadway theater, the criteria is you have to have at least 500 seats. But there are some theaters that have 1200 seats, 1700 seats, 1900 seats. So you know you have to know what story am I telling and what's the scope. So the outsiders, which is a very intimate, very beautiful, very personal story, we wanted a thousand seat theater. So you don't just need a theater, you need the right theater, and we got the right theater with the Jacobs. Likewise for Buena Vista Social Club, which lives next door to the Jacobs Theater at the Schoenfeld, same size house, same scope. Storytelling. But with Purple Rain, a big big story, a big big motorcycle, a big big Waterstein, get ready. That's gonna be in the Majestic Theater, almost 1700 seats. So you want to make sure that you have relationships, and again, another clue: if you're having trouble getting a Broadway theater, maybe your show doesn't belong on Broadway. Maybe you should try the West End in London. Maybe you should try another regional production or a North American tour. There are shows that go out with great titles like Dirty Dancing and Flashdance and The Bodyguard that are not Broadway shows. But boy do they like them in Boise. Joe: Now, if someone wanted to bring an idea to life, whether a show or a business, what's the first step they should take? Sue Gilad: Write the thing. Please write the thing. Even if it's gonna be based on Metallica's music and you don't have a relationship with Metallica and you don't know how you're gonna get the rights, write something, it's going to hone your skills. Have a piece of art that says the two magic. Do you remember the two magic words, Joe? The end. Right, those are the magic words. If you have that, I can't tell you how many people say, I'm working on an idea, I have a draft, I have a treatment. We don't do treatment. You want treatment? Go to LA. We need a script, darling. So finish your first script, whatever it is. Then pay for pizza as you sit in someone's living room and have your favorite people who read with expression, preferably actors, but if not, people like you. Who can read the script and you record it so you can hear the rhythm? Because reading it is very, very different from hearing it. Then tweak it as much as you need to. I like to tell writers or ambitious writers. What got you into writing? Who would be your mentor if you could have your pick? Well, you know what? There they are waiting for you on Instagram. Send them a very polite, very short DM that says, I'd be remiss. If I didn't tell you that you are my favorite writer because specific reason, specific moment in specific scene, in specific play. I would be honored if you would consider a 15-minute Zoom with me. If you're in my city, may I please take you to coffee? I I I would love to have you as a mentor. I understand that's a big ask, but you are the person who inspired me to be who I am today. Worst thing that happens, they ignore you, right? But the more eyes on you can have on something before you share it with someone who's a decision maker, the more likely it is to be ever closer to production. Because of course, our writers say it's a cast of 40. And the producers say terrific. Can you get it down to a cast of four? Do you think? So you want to have as much art as you can, but then people who are in the industry say, look, These are the producer's concerns. And if you can allay those concerns before you hand this work to a producer, if you can hand it producer ready, then you're gonna have a much likelier chance of building a relationship with that producer. And then maybe not this piece, because it's your first one, but maybe the next one you can work on together. So we like to develop longstanding relationships with the people who are best in in class, because one show is not your only show. You know, you you could be Stephen Sondheim. And you could write hit after hit after hit. because we got a long life. So if somebody wrote the great if you wrote the greatest American musical, my audience, please send me a lovely, respectful, specific email that says, I heard you on this podcast. This resonated with me. This is what I have completed writing. Please don't send me your treatment. Please don't tell me, send me act one. Joe: you've helped turn many scripts into hits. What's the one message you want entrepreneurs to remember from today's conversation? Sue Gilad: you really have to trust your gut. We've had projects going south that I was like, my head said, it's your responsibility to do this, you need to do this, and my heart was drowning, like, no, this is not your project. This is a mistake. Danger, Will Robinson. I really want everyone in whatever you're doing, whatever you're entrepreneurial about, is it going in the right direction? There's usually at least one bad apple in there. Your job is to cut out that bad apple as soon as possible. And if you can't cut out the bad apple, then it's your time to cut and run. And we learn this lesson over and over in our shows. It is the rare show that is smooth sailing from day one. Sometimes you need to start over with a different writing team. And you didn't know that in early development because again, it's art. So you have to get in the room together to determine is this going in the right direction? So really in your heart of hearts say, is this my My A team. I have a producing partner, Joe. I'm really fortunate that Larry and I met in 1996, I think. We were both rent heads. We were both doing shows. He was working at Disney. I was doing an off-Brawway show. We went to go see Rent. we were just kindred spirits. And then when it came time to be producers, it was like this this is the only person I really want to hang out with and I trust with my life and who's basically my family. We raised our kids together. and Larry is good at everything that I'm not good at. So he's remarkable at seeing something that is a sketched out idea and saying, This is the diamond in the rough. This is the idea that's going to be universal and change people's minds and open their hearts. And then he'll say that my skill is as the thing gets closer to development and more established, I'll say, these are the elements that are missing, or these are the elements that need to go. So we really balance each other out beautifully, but mostly we have such a great time. We're always laughing. If we're the only people who showed up in the room for something, we're still gonna have a great experience. It's you know, you celebrate your wins, you definitely celebrate your losses. So surround yourself with a team like that. And even when things go south, because statistically, things will get messed up, you can still be proud of who you created it with and what you created. Joe: that's great advice. Now finally, where can our audience go to explore more about your work, learn more about the business of Broadway, and stay connected Sue Gilad: Okay, so first you have to see a show. If I didn't make you go see a show wherever you are, if if if you live in Dallas or Des Moines, please find a local theater and go see something. It will bring you joy. Don't sit on an end, sit in the middle, turn to the people next to you, say, Hey, what brought you here today? Are you friends with somebody that did you did this woman on a podcast tell you you needed to see theater to be a better person? so see if you can get involved in theater. Then each of our shows has its own marketing. Press team, so you can go online and you can literally search for Purple Rain, Moulin Rouge, The Outsiders. We're gonna start touring the Who's Tommy? So if you're like a Pete Townsend fan, you're gonna love that show. Our company name is In Fine Company. you can always follow me at at SugiLod and at In Fine Company, but really One of the things that's great about being a producer is we like to stay in the background and we like our our beautiful actors, our stunning performers to be front and center and our shows to be front and center. So if you want to follow what I'm up to, simply follow each of my shows and you'll get an idea. I'll show up somewhere in there. Joe: Now Sue, thank you so much for pulling back the curtain for us. And we really Sue Gilad: Yeah. Joe: appreciate your time and the value you shared. Sue Gilad: I like what you do, Joe. Thank you for bringing so many different people to the fore. Like I'm I'm learning a lot from what you bring to the table. So keep on keeping on. Joe: Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening. If this episode inspired you, make sure you share it with someone. And don't forget to follow the Glovisor podcast for more conversations that make an impact. Till the next time.