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SMNTY Interviews: Molly Conger · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I've never told your production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And today we are excited to have a journalist, writer, creator,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: fellow podcaster dog mom because I've seen.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: This Molly Conger on the show. Hello, Molly, Hey, thanks
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: for having me. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners?
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, who am I question?
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Question?
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: Yes, my name is Molly Conger. I live here in
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: Charlottesville in Virginia. I have a new podcast on iHeart
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: I guess it's not new anymore. We're six months in
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: called Weird Little Guys. It is terrible stories of terrible
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: men that you've probably never heard of.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: Yay, it's true.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Just jumping into your podcast, I was like, this is
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: how did I describe it before? As like a kindly
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: told tale about really horrible people and fact that you
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: really didn't want to know but need to know, Like
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: it's just so much to it, and like your storytelling
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: is phenomenal.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: But before we jump into all of that.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Because you have a long and deep history in the
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: middle of the most intense events, I feel like, especially
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: in our generation, you were kind of in the middle
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: of the aftermath. I guess both in the Unite the
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Right rally which happened in Charlottesville. Right, you also kind
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: of were in the middle of the did you go
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: actually investigate the January sixth.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: As well? There? Yes?
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, so both of these things blew my mind. I'm like,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: what is she doing to herself? And why is she
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: doing this? Ay, that's the big question. Is she that
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: dedicated or is she a massacres? Like what is this question?
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Answer is yes.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: But with all of that, because I realized even though yes,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: you are a coworker and now friend, I have been
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: following you for a while on Blue Sky, I think
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I followed you. I did follow you on Twitter as well,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: because you are in the middle of all of this
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: intense labor in letting us know what was happening in
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: these types of aviz Can you talk to us about
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: how you got started in this intense work.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: So I don't have a background in journalism, Like I
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: didn't go to journalism school. I have not had, you know,
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: a professional journalism job. But in like you said in
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: the aftermath of Unite the Right, you know, living here
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: in Charlesville, I'm kind of looking around at this town
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: where I've lived for a long time, but had never
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: been really politically engaged with you know, I was living
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: my own life, and all of a sudden in twenty seventeen,
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: I was unemployed suddenly for unrelated reasons, and I'm just
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: looking around being like, what happened here? What?
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: What just happened?
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: To us as a city, to us as a nation
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: as a people, like what what just happened? And I
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: had the spare time to commit to sort of it
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: was a personal journey, right, Like I wanted to know
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: for myself, and as I sort of dug deeper into
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: trying to figure out what happened here, you just never stopped.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: And it started to become obvious that, like, other people
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: wanted to know too, and I was in a position
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: to help tell them.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, even without the background in journalism, you
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: are an incredible investigative journalist. Like it's interesting to see
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: how things have been uncovered as you do your good research.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: And by the way, we'll talk about this in a minute, Sophie,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: that's the first thing she told me outside about you're
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: an amazing person, but that you are an amazing researcher.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: You know, that's a huge compliment coming from Sophie as
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: I was say, yeah, as for our listeners, she's like
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: a producer over at coal Zone Media and a friend
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: of the show and co worker as well. But all
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: of that to say, you also do unexpected things. I
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: feel like you really are a detective, maybe a private eye,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: but you do is like being on a collective called
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: deeplatform hate, which I found interesting.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Can you kind of tell us what.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: That It was sort of a project from ages ago, right,
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: But it's stilling to know. So the idea of deplatforming, right,
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: I think it's it's less in the conversation now that
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: our mainstream platforms are run behind fascists.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: But there was a period of time where there.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: Was an idea that fascists and Nazis and misogynists and
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: anti semits did not belong on mainstream social media platforms, right,
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: They did not belong in our collective Internet town square,
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: and you could apply pressure to have them removed from
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: these spaces. Again, that dream has died. They run the show.
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: Now we're not getting them. You're not getting a nazi
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: kicked off Twitter because that's their playground.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: Now. It's one of those moments that you wish we were
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: could go back.
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: To there was momentum for a while behind this idea
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: that like, you know, if a Nazi is running a
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: T shirt store, you could contact the payment processor and say, hey, like,
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: is it your business practice to process payments that are
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: funding a hate group? And the answer is usually silence.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: But sometimes they would say that was not our intention.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: We did not know that, right.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I've really miss when it was there was accountability, like
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: this could have a whole conversation about cancel culture and
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: how that doesn't exist and that's not a thing.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: We need to stop talking about this as a thing.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: But it was interesting because I was like, when I
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: was looking all the stuff up about you, as you
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: know we do for our guess, she's got her own
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Wikipedia page.
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: Congratulations, humiliating, humiliate. When I saw that, I was like,
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: I'm not telling anyone about this. I don't want anyone
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: to know about this. Don't look at it to know
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: I don't look at it.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't either, honestly, I wouldn't either try.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: To say it. I'm honestly like I had a nightmare
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: ahead a Wikipedia.
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: Page probably not correct, and I just like I can't
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: I can't engage that like, I think my birth year
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: is wrong, and it's like that's just.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: They haven they didn't notice that. I was like, okay,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: that's interesting.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: But every year on my birthday, I make a joke
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: about how I get two birthdays because the year I
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: was born, my birthday was Labor Day, and so it's
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: not always on Labor Day.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: So I feel like I get both days.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: And it's like, if you know approximately how old I am,
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: you know what year that was labor Day?
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: They did not do they do not.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: But it's really good because it is glowing, like it
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: is like complimentary of what you have done. So I
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: will give you that as someone who just recently looked
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: at it. Okay, like this, it made me want to
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: be your friend for sure.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: I was like, okay, we're definitely friends. Wow.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: So we are interested in your podcast because all all
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: of this, all the things that you've done and the
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: investigative work that you've done, has led to this podcast
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: weird Little Guys. Can you tell us a bit about it?
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah? So then Sophie actually came up with a name.
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: I love Sophie because I guess, you know, work related
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: and casual friend friend conversations with Sophie like, I'm always
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: sort of like bursting into the room like the kool
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: Aid man, with like, look at this weird guy I found, right,
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: because I'm always sort of digging around looking for I
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: don't even know what I'm looking for until I find it,
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: just sort of digging around. And sometimes you find a
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: guy and you're like, what is going on with this guy?
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: This guy's got a weird situation. So I'm always saying, like,
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: look at this weird guy I found.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: And eventually she was like.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: You know, You've got a lot of weird guys. You
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: can make a whole show about these weird guys. And
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: so every episode is theoretically centered around an individual man.
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: You know, women women can be weird little guys too.
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: I'm actually working on a woman right now. But these
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: are sort of figures in the white power movement, in
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: white supremacist movements, neo Nazi movements, and they're sort of
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: biographical sketches, but it uses each man as sort of
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: an entry point into the world he was operating in. Right,
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: So these the way these figures intersect with each other
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: and with events in history, the way these movements are shaped,
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: the way they interact with mainstream politics. You know, I
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: think marketing tagged its true crime, which I think is
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: a very interesting conversation to have, but sort of the
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: nature of true crime as a genre, because I don't
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: think that's incorrect, right, Like from a marketing perspective, these
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: are stories of crime and they are true, right, But
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: I know, no shade to the true crime girlies, like
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: it's my one of my guilty pleasures. I do listen
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: to a lot of true crime shows, but I find
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: that genre typically sort of sensationalistic or exploitative, or sort
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: of focused on finding the worst aspects and focusing on
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: that without exploring what it means. So my weird little
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: guys there are they're monsters, right, they are true monsters.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: They are beating their wives, their molesting children, they're making
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: they're trying to overthrow the government. They're doing the worst
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: things you can think of, and they are what you
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: would describe as monsters. But the goal of the show
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: is to show you that they're also just men. They
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: are human men with strange personal lives and massive personal
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: failings and the weaknesses of men. Because it is hard
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: to think of facing a monster, but it's easy to laugh.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: At a man, which is the title is fantastic.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I will say so between you and Sophie creating that
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: is a beautiful title. Weird little guys because it does
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: kind of take away some of that power that they
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: are desperately trying to get over people in general. But
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: as I was listening to it, you also in each
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: of your episodes, it's like a big tangled web of
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: people and organizations that have like you really lay out
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: how these people came about, Like how these creations of
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: these monsters or these men doing these awful acts came about.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: And I find that interesting in itself. Also, with a
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: lot of your conversations and talking you have a like
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: unearthed people who may be cops who are obvious supporters of,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: you know, the alt right supremacist movement, as well as.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Calling out new people.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: I know, I know people are listening hate listening, trying
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: to figure out if they're going to be swept up
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: in to your conversation of an organization. Have you gotten
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: any reactions from any other people you've talked about or reference.
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: The fascinating answer to that question is no, really right,
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: So I've been doing this work for years now, right,
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: sort of talking about these men, unearthing them, digging them out,
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: you know, discussing their legal problems, their personal lives. Have
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: been digging into these people for a long time, and
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: for years it was this sort of.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: Conversation. It was bidirectional.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: They were aware of me, and I was aware of them,
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: and I could see them talking about me in their
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: spaces as I'm talking about them in mind. And you know,
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: sometimes the communication was direct in ways I do not prefer.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: But since I started the show, I don't see that,
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: and I think it's because they're afraid of being on
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: this show.
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: That's amazing. I think they are amazing.
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: Hear the you know, these narratives where I'm dissecting someone
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: and just you know, reading them to filth, and they
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: don't want that smoke because I don't hear from the
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: you know, the guys I used to hear from.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: That's fascinating because I would have thought someone would have reacted.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I know you've gotten threats previously. I don't know if
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: it's been around the podcast, but like any of your other.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Stuff, but that is interesting.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I really thought you would have gotten some type of
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: reaction by your podcast. Maybe it's because, like I said,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: your storytelling is so good that they're like, wait, it
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: sounds like it's if I do this, she's going to
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: do it in a way that I can't combat her.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: What are you saying. I don't know.
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: I think they are nervous about it. This was before
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: the show started. I wrote a piece, like I say,
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: a year or two ago now about about a man
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: in particular that I did have a bit of a
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: personal history with. He'd been on a podcast, a Nazi
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: podcast that often discussed me in ways that were very
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: violent and disparaging, and then he got into some legal trouble,
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: and I wrote an article about you know, his legal
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: trouble at that moment, and sort of in the style
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: of the show, I guess before the show started, you know,
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: was talking about his life leading up to that moment.
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: A friend of mine, another female journalist, had a source
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: relationship with this man from an unrelated situation, and after
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: the article came out, he contacted her and said, how
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: did she know that thing about my grandmother? Like he
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: was startled that I, you know, I dug up details
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: about his life that he thought were secret or private
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: or you know, so far in the past that why
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: would anyone know that, and it's like, it's because I
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: built a family tree and I read every issue of
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: your hometown newspaper for every year of your life. Like
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: the answer to that is that because I'm good. The
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: answer to that is because I spent way too much
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: time on this.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, I love that, but I love you.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: They have that anxiety that like I don't want you
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: to know my grandmother once killed her neighbor's dog, you know, right,
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: like don't know the.
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: Secrets of my past. Please, thank you, thank you very much.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: And then just at sidebar listening to that of to
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: your most recent episode, who voiced Donald Trump?
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Who did that? That is my editor, Rory. He's so good,
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: He's he's so good. I had anxiety. What why? Because
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: I did? I yelled at my radio listening to because
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: I'm always like.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: Down to the wire, like I don't have good time
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: management skills. So like I'm turning the episodes in like
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: hours before like the last second where he could start
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: editing it and I couldn't.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: I was like texting the work group chat.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: I was like, does anybody can anybody do these these
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: Trump line reads for me?
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: And like nobody, nobody would do it?
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: And Rory was like, as he was editing it, because
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: I had just read them in as placeholder because I
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: thought someone would step in and then.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: Where he was like, do you twot me to try it?
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: And it was perfect?
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: It was perfect.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: Tell him compliments because I got I was like, no,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: I don't like I don't like this. Who is doing this?
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: But with all of that, again, like we were saying,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: our coworker and friend Sophie was complimenting about how you
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: are such an amazing researcher.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Obviously as you were talking about digging up.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: The grandma and all those things, the recent episode about
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Scott Still and the overturning of DEI, there's so.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Much that you were getting.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: You were getting minute day stayls about the councilwoman by
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the way, I was like, good god, she just went
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: down that family tree. With all of that, And as podcasters,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: as researchers, we know how important that skill is. We
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: know how big of a deal and how it can
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: make and break a podcast. Any really good written work
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: in general mediums like this, can you give advice on
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: how to navigate in getting good, reliable, correct information like that.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: I'm a primary source girl. I love a primary source.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: I like I said, I don't have a background in journalism,
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: and so like the idea of like talking to a
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: source makes me nauseous.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: I don't like that. I don't want I don't not
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: only do I not.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: Necessarily trust the things that come out of the mouths
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: of the kinds of people I would need to talk to.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: I just I don't like the idea of doing it.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: But I love a document, so I rely a lot
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: on court records. The nature of truth I think is slippery,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: but at least with the court record, you could say
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: this is legally true, right, And so I love an
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: archival newspaper. I love a court record. I do a
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: lot of open source research, so you know, I construct
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: an entire family tree, so for you know, for people
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: who are currently living, you know currently you know, young
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: enough to have a face Book or have a mom
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: who has a Facebook. Like, I'm looking at your I'm
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: building a family tree, and I'm looking at your cousin's Instagram.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Wait, I'm seeing a conspiracy board happening on your wall
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: when you're.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Talking about a specific family moving the red lines? Is
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: that happening? Okay, I'm just kidding.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: It's gnarly, and I don't always know what I'm looking for, right,
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: because you know, you build out, when you're building out
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: a whole world, and these all these sort of details,
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: they add a lot of texture to the story, They
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: make it more real. You don't know what you're looking
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: for until you find it. So I spend most of
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: the week collecting information I'm not going to use right, right.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I feel like that happens a lot, a lot or
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: you just have the pile of like, well, that was
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: things I could have looked at but I didn't need.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: And again what you talk to us about it? And
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: you actually said it again in that Scottsdale episode where
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: you talk about sometimes you don't know what your next
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: episode is going to be about, and sometimes you're in
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: a moment of like, oh god, what do I do?
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: How do you come up with these epitets?
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: So it's what what is like a way of trying
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: to get past that, like.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: Block, I have no control over what the episodes are about.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: And I don't mean there's like a producer somewhere telling me.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: I just mean like I choose it, but I don't
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: know it chooses me. You know, from week to week,
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: you know, I almost always start out with an idea
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: that isn't what ends up happening. Like, Yeah, the two
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: episode arc I'm in the middle of writing the second
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: half of Right Now wasn't what I sat down to write.
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: I was thinking about a particular guy and I started
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: sketching out his life story and I found this one
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: incident from his life that looked interesting to me, and
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: I was thinking, like, oh, that could be an interesting
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: focal point for the story of his life. But that
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: particular rally from twenty twelve, I was looking at the
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: other people in the picture and like, who printed those banners?
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: What was the impetus for this moment? And it's not
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: about him at all anymore. It's not about him. He's
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: not even in the story because this other story presented
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: itself to me, this story of actually what I'm in
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: the middle of writing right now is an international fascist
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: mercenary network that was trying to prevent the first post
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: apartheid elections in South Africa.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Right which, by the way, Like I came in to
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: that episode thinking you were talking about Elon.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: Musk, Like that's what we're gonna be talking about.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I was like, Yeah, this is absolutely ze On par
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: and then it traveled into this woman in Louisiana who
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: was like, let me tell you about this person.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: I was like, wait, that took a hard left.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: That was really anticipating that we were just gonna have
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: a drag down of Elon Musk. But I was like, wow,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: this is an intense level of conversation, especially when you
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: start putting like international levels, how it does affect within
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: our own government, which in itself is horrifying.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: And led by a woman.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: Oh, she's she's an interesting character, but it is It's
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: like I'm just following. I'm just following the story where
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: it takes me. And you know, I thought it was
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: a story about a guy in Arkansas, but now I'm
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: trying to track gun smuggling from Bosnia to South Africa,
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: like it was an accident.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: That is insane, and all of these stories. I sit
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: here and wonder for you, because when I listen to
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: these podcasts, this type of research, the people that you're
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: researching who seem heartless and like, who are monsters a
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: little monsters in that they are trying to take away
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: people's rights, people's lives, all of those things, and with
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: all the substances do research does that not affect you
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: at all, or does it?
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: I mean sometimes I think if you listen carefully, you
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: can tell that I'm crying. No, you know, you do
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: as many takes as you can, and you edit out
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: the parts where you can really hear the sniffling, But like,
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: sometimes there's just no getting around it. Like you could
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: hear in the episode that like I've been crying because
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: it does. I think it has to. And if it doesn't,
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: you have to stop. You have to walk away, right, Like,
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: if you can immerse yourself in this story of truly
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: the most the most evil things that human beings can
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: do to one another and not feel it, you're not
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: doing it right.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: You're not doing it justice.
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: You're you've hardened your heart to the point that you're
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: not okay anymore.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: But you're not telling the story right.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: There's this this idea of this you know this, I know,
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: this holy grail of this journalistic objectivity. And I don't
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: think that's healthy. I don't think that's how you should
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: be telling these stories. I think it's a disservice. I
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: think it is actively harmful to seek that, right.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine hearing some of these stories again
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: talking about going back to the Scottsdale because I know
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: you had really invested in this conversation and it really
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: dug up a lot of the details. And just for
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: the listeners, they were talking about the fact that the
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: local council had overturned the DEI initiative. That am I
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: saying that right? Right?
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: So, the city of Scottsdale, Arizona, had one of the
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: first in the nation a full time city employee position
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: dedicated to a diversity initiative. So in the late nineties
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: they were one of the first cities in the country
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: to do this. And in two thousand and four, a
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: klansman sent a mail bomb to try and murder the
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: director of that office, Don Logan. He was injured pretty badly,
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: but he survived and he kept doing the job and
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: the office did not close. Like he kept doing the job,
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: you know, Helmos had his hands blown off, and then
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: in February of this year, the city council voted to
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: close the office.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: And like you're telling of the story, it was it
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: was gut wrenching because not only did you add the
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: audio of that council meeting where they were making this vote,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: but you also had interview with the director had almost
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: died for this center is literally saying I have shed blood,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: I've given my blood to this, and talking about why
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: it was important, and even talking about the original intent
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: of having that was because of the corruption, not because
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: they were being quote unquote woke, but because it.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: Was so bad because of wokeness.
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: It was because there cops couldn't stop doing discrimination, not
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: like violating everyone at the violations of people's civil rights, right,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: So it really wasn't unresponsibil like, let us be extra
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: in this, No, let's just make sure we stop before
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: everybody dies and we have a riot essentially, But in
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: this level of like storytelling, you do an amazing job
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: of bringing that empathy and care to these stories.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: How how are you doing this? That's a good question.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: I mean part of it is that I love it.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: I think it is.
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: It is the only thing I can imagine doing, you know,
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: because I I think I've talked about this before on
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: the show and elsewhere, But I started telling these stories
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: from my own community, right, Like I sort of became
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: sort of an accidental community audience surrogate for trying to
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: figure out what happened to us as a community. And
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: so my approach to telling these stories was, as you know,
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: it was personal, right, and because it was for people
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: in my immediate community, it was about us. It was
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: about what we experienced. And I haven't changed the approach.
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: So even though I'm telling stories for a broader audience,
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: an audience of people that have no connection to me,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: about places I have no connection to. Right, I'm not
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: a part of these stories anymore, but bringing that same
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: approach to it, I think makes it more accessible and
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: more real.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Accessible and real, and like it does feel again like
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: caring you literally, I feel like allow for the listeners
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: to care about these individuals who have been victims to
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: these monsters and making it a more reality of like
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: this could happen and anywhere it has happened so many places.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: You just haven't uncovered that story yet. Which, Yeah, you
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: should come to Georgia and.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: Oh you've got you've got some weird little guys down there.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: Oh you need to down here, a guy on my
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: list that I am very interested in.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Excited, I'm excited and nervous because it feels like a constant,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: like dystopian level of being in Atlanta. And I'm sure
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: you under say of being in Atlanta but in an
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: area where so conservative al right, and it's increasing power
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: here that it's like what I.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: Mean, there's a very prominent white supremacist attorney who owns
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: a lot of real estate in Atlanta.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what ends people here actually, Like
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: the understanding when you start discovering what is happening and
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: who is who is here and who has control and
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: what families have been here.
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: It's disgusting anyway.
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: It's deep and and I think that's important to remember too,
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: is that part of what I'm trying to emphasize in
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: these stories is that none of these guys exist in isolation.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: These aren't like one off freak occurrences. This is part
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: of a recurring pattern. This is part of an interconnected
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: web of people and organizations Like these guys aren't just
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: springing up like mushrooms after the rain, right right.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I know, Like we just had an incident where one
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: of our state House representative I think, got arrested because
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: he was angry about the former. Now, did David Ralston,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: who had been representative here hadn't done enough for the
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: white people like it was? And if you know anything
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: about David Ralston, he was completely concerned, like he was
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: one of the harshest when it comes to like religious
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: rights and all these things. So interestingly that that's how
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: it's growing. Instead of being like they loved him and
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: that was sufficient enough, ano they're growing even darker.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: It feels like I could be wrong. I mean, he
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: did get arrested.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: Of course, who's more oppressed than the white men of Atlanta?
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Obviously, look at here.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Can you tell us Obviously we've been talking about future episodes.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Can you tell us and give us more hints about
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: future episodes?
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Or you're like, I don't know yet.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: The thing is, so I have a list, right like
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: I you know, been so even before the show started,
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: and as I go along, when I come across a
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: guy and I think, oh, that would make a good episode.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: So I have a list of like it's like, you know,
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: fifteen pages long of just these sort of like little
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: ideas that have occurred to me. Guys I'd like to do,
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: guys I'd like to come back to. I almost never
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: picked something from the list, just so like I'll never
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: run there's no risk of like running out of guys.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: I can always go back to the list. But like
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: from a week to week basis. It's just like a
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: new thing I thought of, Right, So.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Actually I did this to Antia.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Drives are crazy, like I will have beginning of outlines
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: that have been sitting there for years, and she's like,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: we've never done this on an archive.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: It like it was a good idea.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: Then you could always come back to it, you know,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: in an emergency, I can always just come back to
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: willing Luther Peers, you.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Know, like we're talking of like I've still got in
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: our list.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I think we were talk about goth and how like
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: the feminist movement brought back in and we need to
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: talk about that goth is for the girls, thank you.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: But it's been sitting there for a year now.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Think I'm about to move that to our pending folder.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: It is bothering me, so fair enough, fair enough. I'm
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: not very quick to this. Obviously.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: I've got a whole folder of like not just you know,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: not just the list, but there's a folder of like,
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: oh episodes in development where I did I spent a
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: whole day starting an episode.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't want to do that. I'm not
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: doing that this week. Yeah, I do feel like thirty
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: of those to be fair.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: We also have uh the outline for understanding Project twenty
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: twenty five.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: It's too late.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's too late.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: But trying to understand it ourselves is like, that's just
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: current events now, Yeah it is, and that's exactly where
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: we are. We're like, we don't even know at this point.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: It's too late because we have to talk about so
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: many things, and I'm like, yeah, it's gonna be outdated.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I can't wait for our future selves to come back
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: to these episodes and look back, and I'm I'm hoping
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: it's gonna get better instead of being like, yep, that
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: shouldn't That was the warning sign.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: It will get better eventually. That's that's right.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: I don't know what the time scale on that is,
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: but at some point things will be better than they
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: are now.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Like I need that, Yeah, I need it to be
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: in my lifetime, in our lifetime instead of after the.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: Fact that I'm less confident about, you know, I get like,
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: you know, we I think, you know, I tell these
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: stories of great darkness, right, they don't have happy endings.
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: It's not like, you know, at the end of the story,
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: like and everything's fine now because he went to jail.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: And it's like, because these aren't isolated incidents. You know,
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: even if the story ends with this guy died or
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: this guy went to jail, it's that's actually not a
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: happy ending because the movement he was a part of
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: did not die.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: So the stories don't have happy endings.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: And so you know, you might think like, well, these
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: are stories of hopelessness, and I don't think that's true.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: I think there is always hope right in understanding where
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: these men have come from. There is hope that we
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: can stop that from continuing to happen. Right There is
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: hope that by understanding them we can prevent some of
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: the harm that they do. But I think that hope
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: exists on a very long time scale.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: That's a good line.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Hope is on a long time scale, is coming right
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: now exactly.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: When I think it is important for all of us
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: to do everything we can, you know, behave as if
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: you think that hope is for you, but know that
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: maybe it isn't.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: The hope is for who comes after you, right.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is a message we get a lot when
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: we do. We have a series called Female First, and
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of the women we feature on there, they
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: were doing it for the generations that were coming after them,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: and I think that is incredibly important. I'm just curious,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: do you have you noticed doing this podcast some themes
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: that are recurrent when you're talking about weird little guys.
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, I guess this is something we talk about
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: in sort of the modern political climate, right that, like,
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: pointing out their hypocrisy is not like it is not
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: a sharp political weapon, because there is so much inherent
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: hypocrisy in the way the right behaves. Right, they're the
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: party of traditional values, but like they're not living traditional values.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: But the hypocrisy is stunning, right, Like, so many of
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: these guys have these secret lives that are very shameful,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: and maybe maybe that is part of what motivates them
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: to lash out or to project an image that is
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: contrary to the life that they're living. A lot of
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: them have inappropriate relationships or attractions to children. A lot
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: of them are hiding parts of their own background. You
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: know a lot of these white supremacist leaders have a
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Jewish grandmother or a Hispanic mom. It is really common
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: and the hypocrisy is interesting to look at, But I
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: don't think is that it is an.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Incisive political tool. Other themes.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: They all hate women, right, so we'd little guys come
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: in a lot of stripes, right, there's I mean a
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: lot of them are equal opportunity haters, but I think
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: for most of them, there is a driving force.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: They are anti black, they are anti Semitic, they are
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: they have a specific sort of niche within the movement.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: They have their own little you know, their hobby horse.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: But regardless of what kind of guy he is, he
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: hates women and that is what unites them all.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: It is the driving force of white supremacy.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: All right, even the ones with them that are women.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, right, oh no, they definitely they're out there.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: This is as we've been discussing a lot of heavy
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: stuff that you deal with, a lot of stuff that
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: impacts you emotionally. And we are always interested when we
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: talk to people who are doing this kind of work,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: what are some of the things you do to disconnect
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: from all of that.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: So I always feel so guilty when I answer this question,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: Like I was recently speaking to a college class and
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: like that's something when I speak to younger people, that's
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: the question they're always most interested in. It's like, how
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: do you do this? What is the emotional toll of
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: doing this. How do you counteract that? And the answer is, like,
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: I wish I could give them like a tool or
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: something that is useful or inspiring. And the answer is,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: I don't think you should do this to yourself because
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: it's not good.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: I'm not good.
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: I mean the answer is dissociation, compartmentalization, and like, those
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: are not healthy strategies that I would recommend.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: But like.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm I'm I have formed a system that
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: works for me, but I would not recommend it to others. Right,
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: you know, you're asked about January sixth, like that to me, like,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: this is this is something I.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Should seak to a therapist about.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: Like but like in my memories of that day, I
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: see myself externally, like so completely dissociated that my own
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: memory of events is not a POV from my own eyes.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: So the answer is you set up a separate part
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: of yourself that experiences these things.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can understand that. Let me ask you,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: how often do you just cling to your dogs?
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: The dogs are the dogs are my most important research assistants,
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: right right? I have two doc sins Auto and Buck.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: They are perfect angels cut they are. I think we
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: could all learn a lot from Auto. I mean, Buck
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: is a very thoughtful dog. He often looks very pensive,
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: like he's got the weight to the world on his shoulders.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Otto has never in his life experienced sadness. He doesn't
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: think about anything, nothing is, nothing matters. He is just
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: pure vibes. He has reached nirvana, and I think we
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: could learn a lot from him. And not that he
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: hasn't experienced hardship. He's experienced great hardship. He had back
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: surgery a few years ago. It was really touch and go,
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: like you know, we were all very scared for him.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: He did not care.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: He did not care. He was living all the good
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: drugs and just like a better I'll be better. Yeah.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: I mean even when he was paralyzed, he was like whatever,
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: I'll just crawl.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: He didn't care. He's like to next place.
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: So that's very aspirational, I think is to to live
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: like Otto.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: It is aspirational. I want to put that.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I want to put his picture because my dog is
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: just pure sadness. She just uses that as a way
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: to guilt trip me and everything, being like, look how
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: sad I am.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Give me things. Is it a hound dog?
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Now, she's a mixed terrier, wired haired terrier with attitude.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: She's a very quirky character.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: I said, depressed terrier has got to be a little
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: bit dysfunctional, right, because that's a very high energy creature. Right.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, she's both.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: She's not necessarily depressed, but she gives me the set
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: a lot. The sad face works well. And knowing that
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: she will go out often, she'll get treats often, and
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: she'll get all the attention often.
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: But that is I think such an important part of
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: the day. Knowing that, Like, no matter what I'm doing,
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: no matter how deep down this weird, Like I just
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: signed up for a South African genealogical service, I had
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: to convert currency to rand. Like, no matter how deep
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: down the hole I am, every two hours, I have
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: to get up and go outside. Yeah, otherwise someone's gonna
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: pee on the rug.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Who knows, or gonna make you move, They're gonna make
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: you see the sunlight.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: It's like it's time.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: I think without that I would I would have completely
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: lost my mind.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that this is and this is where
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: we're talking about having to disconnect and using whatever you
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: need in order to get to there, and if it's
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: a live creature to being like, hey, you have to
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: take care of me too, and be like, oh yeah,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: let me just look at your face, who's just seemingly
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: happy in this non you don't know what's happening in
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: the world vibe.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: I love this. He can't even be part of your world.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: Good for him, Good for him.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: But you know, with all of that, like on top
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: of everything you're doing, obviously, telling these stories are so
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: important so that we don't pretend like it's not happening.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: We have to know what's going on. We need to
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: know the history, we need to know the background. We've
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: got to understand that this is a part of history
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: and why this is horrible. But we need to keep
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: moving forward and understanding and unearthing the truth of it all,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: so that in itself is an activism that has to
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: happen for those of us who aren't necessarily going to
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: research and not necessarily going to you know, get into
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: the depths and darkness. What kind of advice you would
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: give would you give to us to make sure we're
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: spreading more of these truths and more of these stories. Obviously,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: outside of telling people about your podcast.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely download my podcast. My mom says it's really good. No,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: I think you know. I'm not a political organizer. That
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: is not a role that I fill in society. But
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: I do think that everyone should at least try to
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: engage on an extremely local level. Like I'm not saying
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: you should canvass for your senator. As a matter of fact,
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: I don't care about that at all. But I do
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: think you should know who's on your school board. I
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: do think you should know who's on your city council.
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: You know, go to a committee meeting that no one
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: else goes. To get involved on this extremely local level,
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: because that's going to be our last line of defense here.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: And I will say the local school board is a
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: breeding ground for weird little guys. It has been a
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: strategy cultivated on the right for decades now to run
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: their weirdest little freaks for local office. And so your
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: local school board may have a guy on it who
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: doesn't think dinosaurs are real. We had one a couple
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: of years ago in the county, not in the city.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: So get involved on the local level. Find your local
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: weird little guy, because you know, before they start hurting
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: people they're just out there being kind of a weirdo.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: And I bet you have one in your town.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: So get out there and get out there and thwart him.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: Thwart him. I feel like you're threatening me. You got
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: weird little guys? You do you do?
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: There is a guy on your city council who probably
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: doesn't think women should vote.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: You know, like, yes, you the listener invariably wherever you.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Live, go find your weird little guys.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying you should do anything to him. I'm
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: just saying you should know about him. I'm not advocating
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: anything here that's going the wrong way.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: It no, because there's there's if there's one thing they hate,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: it's you knowing about them.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, that's great advice. And right
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: now that's we keep talking about that too. It's the
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: importance of local politics and being really aware about that,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: trying to find your little for a little guy.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: And knowing that this happens everywhere where.
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: After Unite the Right, people were looking at Charlottesville like wow,
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: like what's wrong with Charlottesville, right? And the answer is
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: this could have easily happened anywhere. It has, it does
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: it will, it could happen anywhere, and so you know,
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: these aren't exceptional stories. It's just we are not allowed
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: to think of them in context because these stories are
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: not told in context. Like I hear from listeners all
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: the time where you know, their town gets mentioned and
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: they're like, I didn't know that happened here. I didn't
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: know that guy lived here. I got an email from
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: a listener who I mentioned in passing an incident where
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: the Klan tried to blow up an elementary school in Columbus,
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: Ohio in nineteen seventy nine to prevent bussing for integration,
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: and this person had gone to that school in the
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: years immediately following that, and he's like, I didn't I
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: didn't know they tried to blow up my elementary school
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: to prevent integration. I didn't know that happened here. And
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: it happens everywhere, but we don't tell these stories. We
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: don't know these stories, and so it's not something that
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: happens in another town to other people.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: It's happening where you live.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a great point, because we get that a
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: lot in the South, and we were we made the point,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: you know, after Georgia unfortunately went read this election, but
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: it was so close, and that's amazing because it normally
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: isn't and there's so many obstacles in place that keep
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: it that way, and so it can happen anywhere. And
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: now we're getting the dismantling of DEI, the Department of Education.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: The information part of this and what stories do get
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: told is really important. And it doesn't surprise me that
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: the listener would write in and be like, I've never
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: heard of that, even though I lived here. It went
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: there soon after. So, well, are there any other things?
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: We know that your episodes are kind of in flex,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: but aren't there any other things in the future that
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: you're looking forward to? Anything you're working on?
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: Oh gosh, looking forward to hard to say. I mean,
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: I I do get genuine joy out of like digging
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: around and finding my little, you know, diamonds in the rough,
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: little my horrible little facts amidst the you know, the
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: the avalanche of research.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: That I do.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: So I don't I don't want to give the wrong
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: impression that I'm you know, I'm out here suffering. I
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: genuinely enjoy the research process. It's it's satisfying to me.
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: So I love making the show. I hope I get
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: to make it forever. Actually, I hope I run out
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: of guys. I hope they stop making new guys and
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: I run out.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Of Double Edged Sword.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, and we enjoyed your podcast, I immensely. It is
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: so good. Your storytelling is amazing. Your ability to really
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: show a lot of empathy and compassion the victims and
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: the people that you're talking about is beautiful. Your layout
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: in your stories is really really like it it gets me.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: I'm like sitting in the car and not want to
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: leave trying to finish out the story because it's just
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: so enticing.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, I love my tangled little webs.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I think I lately I find myself focusing
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: more on trying to more explicitly connect these things to
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: our current political situation right that like these aren't fringe
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: ideas anymore, and sort of drawing these direct through lines
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: to like, you know, here's this Nazi at a rally
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: in two thousand and four, and here's this idea and
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: how it's destroying your life right now from the White House.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: YEP, which is very that's so important. It's so important
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: and necessary. So thank you so much for doing that work,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Where can the good listeners
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: find you?
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: You can find Weird Little Guys wherever you get your podcasts.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: Any podcast app that you like it is there, so
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: please listen to it so that Sophie will be proud
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: of me.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: We all want Sophie's approval. Approval.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: Yes, so listen to Weird Little Guys wherever you get
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: your podcasts. I'm on Blue Sky. I don't know. Posting
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: isn't even fun anymore. I feel like posting used to
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: be fun.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you, thank you, Thank you
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: so much for being here. Come back anytime.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: Please, Thank you guys so much for having me.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, but listeners in the meantime, if you would like
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: to contact us, you can. You can email us at
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Hello at stuff onnevertold you dot com. You can find
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: us on Blue Sky at Momstuff podcast, or on Instagram
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: and TikTok at stuff one never told you for us
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: on YouTube. We have a tea public store, and we
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: have a book you can get wherever you get your books.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer Maya,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You is production by
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts on my heart Radio, you
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: can check out the Art Radio, Apple podcast, or wherever
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.