Latest / The Cyclical Doula Podcast: Fertility Awareness, Charting Cycles, and Reproductive Health Education / Listening When the Body Whispers: Fertility, Massage & Hormones with Justine Robinson
Transcript
- emmamma: Welcome back to the Cyclical Doula podcast. I am so excited for this conversation today. I am talking to Justine. Justine, can you start by introducing yourself a little bit just about who you are as a human being? Emmamma: hey, just popping in real quick to say sure you're subscribed to the Cyclical Doula podcast on whichever platform you're listening to. ⁓ Thanks so much for being here today on the cyclical doula podcast. If this episode resonated with you, the most powerful thing that you can do is to share it, send it to a friend, text it to your sister, forward it to that group chat. This is how conversations about our bodies start changing, quietly, organically, woman to woman. you are listening and thinking, ⁓ ⁓ want help applying this to my Justine: Well, I'm a mom, first and foremost. I think that's the biggest thing. I'm a mom of four. I am also a small business owner in Summerville I my own massage therapy practice where I specialize with women's health. ⁓ I kind of fell into that after my own experiences and just learning as I went how unsupported we are ⁓ in the field of fertility and just women's wellness in general. emmamma: Yeah. Emmamma: And don't miss upcoming conversations. If this episode is resonating with you, please share it with a friend, rate it and write a review. This is how this movement grows, not through algorithms, but through women talking to women. All right, let's jump back into it. I offer free cycle clarity calls. It's a relaxed conversation over Zoom we talk through your goals, your charting practices, and kind of support that would actually make sense for you. can book one at emmamma.com / free. And if you already, make sure you're following or subscribe to the Cyclical Doula - podcast so that you don't miss future episodes. Justine: So I've been here for, we moved down here in 2007 or so. Oldest kid is 12, youngest is seven with a set of twins between. emmamma: Mm-hmm. ⁓ that's so cool. And I'm so excited before we... Is she? It's crazy. Time flies. They do. ⁓ I am just, I'm so excited to have this conversation because I feel like we were just talking before we hit record about like how we've been in the same circles, but we've never really had like a deep conversation. So I'm excited just to like get to know you a little bit better and hear about all the things and also just have some fun. ⁓ Justine: Gosh, no, she's 13 actually now that I think about it. She's 13. Yes, I grow fast. Emmamma: And if you feel called to leave a rating or review, it genuinely helps more women find this work. So thank you. You deserve to understand body. You deserve to feel confident in your reproductive choices. And you ⁓ have to figure it out alone. I'll see you next week. Thanks for being here. Justine: Yeah. emmamma: So let's start if you're willing to share your story and kind of like what led you to the place that you're in now. Justine: Yeah, sure. So I got married shortly after moving down here and started to try for a family like right off the rip. And that was in 2008. And then like 2009 came and then 2010 came and then 2011 and 12 and it was just not happening. So I was seeing friends get pregnant. You we started around the same time trying and boom, they're pregnant and I wasn't. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: a handful of false positives, just a rough start to something that was generally ⁓ talked about as being so easy and easy enough that you really need to be careful all the time. And it just was not the case for me and for us. so going through that personally, emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: we ended up going through a little bit of fertility testing just to verify it wasn't a problem on his end. ⁓ I started going into fertility testing on my end to see where the lack was or where the, you know, not being able to connect there. ⁓ And it was just unexplained in fertility. ⁓ Prior to that, many... emmamma: Right. Justine: years prior, had had a ectopic. No, I'm sorry, I had, wasn't an ectopic. I had a ⁓ miscarriage at like 18. So it was a miscarriage about 12-ish weeks. ⁓ Had a DNC. And then, ⁓ you know, at that point in time, they're like, yeah, you'll be fine. It shouldn't be a problem. You know, you'll get pregnant again when you're ready. ⁓ Never thought about it again. And then as we're trying, here we are just not having the luck that we thought we would. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Right. Justine: ⁓ So, you know, talking with the doctors, they put me on progesterone for a little bit to lengthen the luteal phase of the cycle. ⁓ And it just didn't do what it was supposed to do. We were doing everything that we were supposed to be doing. ⁓ You know, I had learned all about ⁓ temperature charting and basal body temperature and cycle, you know, mucus charting and, you know, emmamma: May I? Justine: laying with your hips up and all the things and it just was not happening. So that led me to start working more on figuring out my own journey and then adding that into my practice because as a massage therapist, I am in a quiet space with somebody for, you know, upwards of an hour to 90 minutes and we have lots of conversations and life comes up and emmamma: Right? Yeah. Emmamma: Welcome to the Cyclical Doula podcast. I'm Emma, a certified fertility awareness educator, miscarriage doula and the founder of Emmamma Justine: I was sharing my experiences with clients and they were sharing their experiences with me to try to help me find the right providers or ideas of what they had gone through or what their family had gone through, their sisters or their mothers. ⁓ So it really led me down that path of learning ⁓ to guide myself as well as others in this journey. So I got, I'm trying to think of how... emmamma: Yeah. Justine: played out. I ended up having an ectopic pregnancy. We were trying so, so, so hard ⁓ doing all of the things with the pre-seed and with the anything we could. And so I was so excited when I found those two lines, right? And then ⁓ I started having some weird pains that I couldn't pinpoint. And I didn't have a good provider at that point. I was on the waiting list to be confirmed, right? Because you have to wait forever. emmamma: Right. Emmamma: This space is for women who want to understand their bodies deeply, not just memorize information, but actually feel confident in interpreting their cycles. Here we talk about ovulation, hormones, cervical mucus, basal body temperature, and all that's messy in between emotional layers that come with being woman. We talk about trying to conceive, avoiding pregnancy ⁓ hormones. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justine: for them to confirm it, which I think is terrible. ⁓ So I had some conversations with a doula, because I was also researching how to have either a home birth or a water birth was my goal. ⁓ And so was researching local providers in the area, spoke with a, she was a midwife, a ⁓ at home midwife. And she was like, ⁓ I think you just have a little bit of IBS. No, no. emmamma: Yes, truly. Yeah. Emmamma: postpartum transitions, pregnancy loss, perimenopause, and everything in between. Because body literacy isn't just about charting. It's about the autonomy. It's about informed consent. It's about not outsourcing your reproductive decisions to guesswork or fear. Each week, you'll hear conversations with women's health professionals, ⁓ workers, ⁓ Justine: It was nuts. It was an actopic. It ruptured. I ended up with a... All my pieces are there. Were. Still there. They're not anymore. But everything, you know, got put back together fine. After that, I ended up recovering, trying some more. They ended up doing a histosopeniogram to verify that I was open and I was. And... emmamma: ⁓ no. Emmamma: and researchers along with solo episodes where I teach practical skills you can apply to your own cycle right away. if you have ever felt like you should have learned this information sooner, if you have ever felt disconnected from your cycle, Justine: Yeah, everything kind of was just at a loss. They were like, yeah, we don't know. We don't know. It's inexplained infertility. So here's your diagnosis. Do with it what you will. I'm like, what am I supposed to do with that? emmamma: Right, that's not very helpful. Justine: Yeah, so as we were on the way to getting into doing some IVF, we got positives and that was our first with Isabella. Confirmed early on, unremarkable pregnancy, wonderful delivery. A couple years later, we were ready again. Didn't take long that time around. It was, you know, quick and fast and as the midwife said, ⁓ Isabella left some bread crumbs for them, so. Emmamma: If you want to raise the next generation without shame around their bodies, you are in the right place. So grab your tea, open up your notes app, and let's build a cycle confidence together. Justine: They knew where to go. ⁓ Got the confirmation early again because I was concerned that it was in the right place. So we went in early and she's like, I'm probably not going to be able to see anything, but we'll do topical and boom, there were two. not only did Isabella leave breadcrumbs for them, but they multiplied. ⁓ So the twins came two years after her. And then from there, it was kind of Uh, we were done. Somebody was supposed to have a vasectomy and didn't. And surprise, number four came three years later. Again, it was an unusual sequence of events at that point. My cycles were starting to get a little shorter. About once a year, maybe twice a year, I would have cycles that were like 17, 19 days long. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: with pretty intense bleeds in between. And so after Nathan came, we were ⁓ done done. ⁓ And so, yeah, now we have four kids. We're living our lives now. But as far as the way that it came to be with what I do, I've kind of woven a little bit of my life into my work. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: And I try to help support my clients through the paths that I see are pretty similar that we all go through. Just giving them an ear to listen, a shoulder to cry on, somebody to talk with through things or give recommendations of providers in the area that I know are quality. ⁓ Because word of mouth and like actual knowing and liking and being able to refer somebody is huge versus just showing up cold. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Appreciate it. Justine: So feel like it's helpful, you emmamma: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so helpful. And thanks for sharing so much of that. think so many people resonate with just the same circumstances of being in that space of being told that it's undiagnosed infertility or like there's no unexplained infertility or and sometimes there is other stuff going on and sometimes there's you just need time and space which I know for you based on some other things that you've shared it probably there probably was some other stuff going on too. ⁓ But it's hard to be in that space. like you said, like it's so good to have other resources of people who can just share their experiences and share their knowledge base to just help people through those seasons of ⁓ trying to get pregnant and support on fertility and all of those things. Justine: Absolutely, I agree. It's hard to find people who are willing to talk about this kind of stuff. I feel like it's coming out of the closet a little bit more than the generation prior. ⁓ It just wasn't talked about. emmamma: Yeah. Absolutely. think it's one of those things that it's starting to be talked about more like women's health, the women's fertility, fertility in general cycles, like menstruation, like that shame of it is going away a little bit and we're able to talk about it, especially within small spaces. So it's been so good. So why with your like perinatal massage feels like Justine: Mm-hmm. emmamma: So for somebody trying to conceive, what do you like focus on to support the body within massage? Justine: Yeah, so there are a handful of different ways that I do support them through it. It just depends on what, where they're coming from, ⁓ and what their struggles are at the time. ⁓ I've seen people anywhere from the beginning stages of ⁓ just not being able to conceive right away all the way through some clients who have done emmamma: Yeah. Justine: transfers, ICSI, IVF, that kind of thing. So it just kind of depends on where they're at, at what point we start. And that can be anywhere between just relaxation type massages on the table that they just need an hour and half to decompress and not think about it. Other people are more hands on and want to be more proactive about things. And so emmamma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Justine: ⁓ We do some guided imagery to kind of bring them out of the I can't do anything phase, if that makes sense. ⁓ And physical work ⁓ is working with the muscle systems and the bony structures to ⁓ create the most, what's the word I'm looking for? Comfortable, not comfortable space, but. emmamma: Yeah. ⁓ Justine: the best space for conception to happen ⁓ because the fascia is everywhere. And if your hip is off a little bit because your glutes are tight on that side and that's pulling the fascia, then the structures are a little bit off. So it may make conception a little bit more challenging. So realigning the pelvis, making sure that the ligaments are nice and emmamma: Bye. Justine: taught when they're supposed to be loose when they're not. We can help reposition ⁓ the uterus to be more compatible for conception. ⁓ And then, of course, the brain space, too, for people. I really like to make sure that they understand that doing the things that are pleasurable to them is the best thing that they could possibly do. Stressing out about whether or not emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justine: ⁓ they got up at the right time to take their temperature in the morning. That's not gonna help. You know, getting the oxytocin from making out with your husband if you feel like it or telling him to do the dishes because you don't want to and that makes you feel good. Reading a book, going for a walk, taking a bath, taking care of yourself. ⁓ emmamma: Yeah. Right, yeah. Justine: emotionally is challenging enough. So just having that extra guidance from somebody on the outside can be helpful. emmamma: Yeah, that's so good. And I love the way that you phrase that about like finding things that are pleasurable and doing those things versus I feel like sometimes the the ⁓ recommendations from outside perspectives are just like, don't stress and that will help. But that that's not helpful at all. And I think putting it into that perspective of like, find the things the little things and the big things that bring pleasure can can be so helpful. ⁓ And then I also I just like Justine: No. Mm-hmm. emmamma: I think this concept of just like having this space where body can relax and like physically get those changes happening as you were describing is can be so powerful to just be in that mindset. ⁓ so from someone like myself who has only ever gotten like massages when I've like been on vacation and like been to a spa, what do you What's your perspective on consistency of going to see you on a regular basis or the same person on a regular basis to support your body? Justine: Yeah, so it's definitely something you want to continuously do for yourself. My recommendation basically is if there's nothing acute going on, if you don't have a major flare-up or like I do manual lymphatic work too, so that's a whole other category that needs regular work post-operatively. But if you don't have anything major going on at the present time, once a order is like the bare minimum. Making sure that you're getting at least one massage every couple months is the bare minimum that I recommend. ⁓ Once every four to six weeks is generally more comfortable for people. ⁓ I tell people, know, you don't want to ride the roller coaster of pain. You don't want to come in and feel really great and then emmamma: Okay. Yeah. Justine: start to taper off and then call me and I don't have any time and then you're down here again and then, you know, we want to avoid that. So consistency is key. Making sure that you are on the table every four to six weeks is preferable. Now, when we get into the fertility work there again, it depends on where you are with your cycles. And ⁓ there's different guidelines for that based on if you're doing transfer ⁓ or if you are trying naturally. ⁓ We time it with your cycle. So ⁓ work can be done at any point in time during your fertility journey, but there are certain things that I do to help ⁓ facilitate the most optimal outcomes. ⁓ So working with clients who are going naturally, we try to time ⁓ massages ⁓ just before ovulation. emmamma: Okay. Justine: a couple, like two or three sessions before ovulation and then one or two post ovulation. And they can be shorter. They don't have to be super long hour and a half sessions. It can be an hour. Um, but each time there is a little something different that we do based off of where you are in your cycle. emmamma: That's super cool. So does that mean like you're working on like the pelvic area in a more specific way versus just like most people's like tension in their back and their shoulders, that kind of thing. Justine: Yeah, in some instances, yes. ⁓ Post-transfer and post-ovulation, we don't. We kind of leave that area to do its thing and bake its own. Yeah. But pre-ovulation or pre-transfer, yes, we will be working the bony structures and we will, in the inner part of the hip, working the pelvic girdle ⁓ to make sure that the ligaments are nice and loose. emmamma: Yeah. First try. Justine: ⁓ and make sure that everything has an opportunity to set where it should. emmamma: Yeah, that's great. I think that's one of those things that like, is not, it's not something that I like even thought about could be a possibility of like doing this massage before trying to conceive. And I think like, now that we're talking about this, I'm like, this is something everybody should probably try if they're like, in that stage, because it can just kind of like make sure that everything's like right in in the best place as possible. ⁓ Justine: Thank Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I also do castor oil packs for my clients as well. So they sit with that on with heat. ⁓ I also trained in a technique called SMRT, which is spontaneous muscle release technique. And that is a little bit different than traditional massage. It's more holding, ⁓ yeah, holding till the muscle releases basically. And ⁓ I trained specifically in the core because of emmamma: Okay. Justine: what I do with my prenatals and my postnatals and all of my women. emmamma: Yeah, that's so cool. I'm so, I feel like it's one of those things where this is just like such an amazing resource of being able to target our body in a way that it can then just be in a space of relaxation and support. Yeah, that's so good. Okay, tell me a little bit about, I know also you do like pregnancy and postpartum massages. I know those are two very different. Justine: Yeah. Yeah. emmamma: things. But can you talk a little bit about how you support during those times as well? Justine: Yeah, sure. My prenatal massages are, I try to keep them as similar to traditional non-pregnant body work because in general, it's not, how do you want to put it? ⁓ Being pregnant is not ⁓ something that is abnormal. So there are obviously some considerations and things that I do a little differently. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justine: ⁓ But I have a prenatal cushion system that allows for my parents to lay face down for pretty long into the pregnancy. ⁓ It's all based on their particular comfort level. I have women who don't like to be face down at all. And I have women who are like, ⁓ my God, thank you so much. emmamma: Right. That was me in pregnancy. I usually sleep on my stomach, which I know is a bad habit, but I had a massage with my first pregnancy that I was laying down, and I was like, this is the best experience ever. Justine: It's so good. It's so good. I know I loved it. I carried that thing around ⁓ with my pregnancies too and any massage therapist that I would go to I'm like, hey, I've got this thing and I can lay in it. They're like, what you can lay face down and I can do my work like normal. That's amazing. ⁓ So I have that. ⁓ And yeah, like I said, my clients can lay on that until roughly 34 to 36 weeks. And then after that, it's just emmamma: Yeah. Mm. Yeah, that's so good. Justine: you don't fit right in it and it's not safe anymore to be face down for any length of time. So we do side lying work. ⁓ I incorporate some good stretches into the hips. ⁓ We do some hip balancing again with that SMRT work. I've done a little bit of research on spinning babies work to help reposition baby during, you know, during that last trimester if it's malpositioned. really like to, I'd like to talk to my emmamma: Yeah. Justine: moms about positioning and I'm like, where are you feeling the most kicks and where are you feeling the little flutters? And, you know, it gives me a good idea of placement. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, left occiput anterior is the best position for delivery. So we always want to try to get baby into that position. So, you know, they end on their left side, I walk them through, emmamma: Yeah. Justine: the Bradley Method And the thing, well, I picked up a lot of really cool things from that course, one of the things that I really picked up on and loved and used and still use to this day is the ⁓ side release position. ⁓ So a lot of my moms have never ⁓ laid in that position. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: And ⁓ I'm like, it's a really great one for you to relax into. Your partner has access to your entire body. If you want them to massage you, they can. If your doulo needs to do some counter pressure on your hips while you're laboring, they can. And all you do is just lay there. And so I talk them through that as well at the end, just to give them an idea of how it feels, what it looks like, what pillow supports you need, that kind of thing. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Da. That's awesome. I feel like that's what an amazing experience to be able to have that support through pregnancy and then also like have those resources to go into birth too. Justine: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it just depends on my clients and how they're carrying. ⁓ Some people have a lot of rib pain, so we work through thoracic issues. Some people are super loosey goosey in their ligaments and are slipping left and right. so ⁓ I try to help them. I talk them through how to ⁓ avoid pubic symphysis that ⁓ emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: I forget the term for that one. ⁓ And, you know, of course the low back, the low back is like the big thing that everybody needs. So we're active and we work on that and yeah, whatever else they have, especially the manual lymphatic work is really super helpful in the last trimester or just in general, if anybody has any ⁓ major swelling. That's really a lovely add on that I've put into the practice in the last couple of years. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Justine: Just help move that fluid back into the body so it can get rid of it. emmamma: Yeah, that's so cool. obviously, if people are listening, lymphatic system and this like, it's pretty self explanatory that you're just moving stuff around, or is there more details that's helpful for people to know? Justine: For the manual lymphatic work, ⁓ no, I mean, we all kind of understand that later in pregnancies and in some other instances, we can end up with pooling or swelling in our hands, our feet, our legs get kind of heavy feeling. And so the work just helps to kind of kickstart the lymphatic system to do its job appropriately. We have an extra amount of fluid when we're pregnant. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: And so our system is overtaxed as it is. And then you add in daily life where you're up on your feet or you're sitting too long. Your system just can't process it quick enough. ⁓ So then you end up with edema and swelling and your shoes don't fit and your pants are too tight and you end up with these lines on your legs. ⁓ so the lymphatic work just basically helps the system work effectively. It gives it a little boost. emmamma: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's super cool. I think that's so helpful ⁓ and related or maybe not, but just because of the work that I do, ⁓ see people who have endometriosis as ⁓ one of their Is that anything that like massage might be able to help with some of that? ⁓ Just kind of release. Yeah. Justine: Yeah, so in the course that I took, ⁓ we were guided on how to help people with endometriosis, fibroids, polycystic ovarian syndrome, ⁓ adenomyosis, which I had no idea about because nobody ever talks about that one. I had to learn that one the hard way. ⁓ Through castor oil, using castor oil packs ⁓ and supporting the body with emmamma: Yeah. Yep. Okay. Justine: food choices as well, as well as exercise and reducing your stress and your cortisol and all of those things. They all play into it. There's certain things that I can't talk about ⁓ as far as from a clinical perspective. It's out of my scope of practice to say, go eat your broccoli. ⁓ But I can say, when I was eating properly, my body did this. ⁓ So from personal experiences, emmamma: Mm-hmm. Right. Right? Justine: something that I can talk about and share what helped me or helped other clients of mine or what have you. But yes, yes. ⁓ So massage therapy, when I trained, we learned how to use castor oil packs to help people with endopain, with ⁓ reduction of fibroids, ⁓ help with polycystic ovarian syndrome. ⁓ So not only do I offer that in practice, but I also emmamma: Great. Yeah. Justine: encourage my clients to go home and find cold pressed castor oil, some packs that you can do at home. ⁓ I don't retail them, I probably should, but I don't. ⁓ But they're easy enough to find anywhere basically on Amazon or whatnot. So I'm just like, this is what can help you long term. If you do this regularly, it has shown to help people reduce the size of fibroids and some have even gotten rid of them all together. emmamma: Mm-hmm Yeah, that's awesome. That's so good. What a cool. I love when there's stuff that's just like so naturally part of our systems that can help just with everything. So, so great. What else, what else do you want to share about your experience with working with clients and how that just plays into women's health? Justine: Mm-hmm. Well, overall, one of the questions that I think you had asked initially was looking back at your experience. What stands out to you now? And I think the one of the biggest things that stands out to me is just the lack of. emmamma: Yeah. Justine: conversation around the topic. ⁓ I grew up with my mom just telling me that heavy cycles were normal, that clots were normal, and long seven-day cycles were normal. And so I was like, okay, this is normal. I'm supposed to feel like crap. I'm supposed to have migraines, and ⁓ it's normal. Everybody has it. Everybody goes through it. I'm not special. emmamma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Justine: ⁓ But later on in my journey, I found out that that's not the case. And I'm shouting it from the rooftops. It's not normal. What might be common is not normal. And everybody needs to figure out where their baseline is. ⁓ You know, I have friends that have three-day cycles and I have myself who doesn't have a cycle anymore, but I was, you know, study long cycles. ⁓ emmamma: Yeah. Justine: So I think that's one of the main things that what is common isn't always normal and you can apply that to basically every situation. Because emmamma: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Justine: You know, clinically, we have to have a baseline to consider, but that might not be what your baseline is. Be it fertility or functional with your body with massage or with muscles. It's not always the case. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: Another thing that I would like whoever's hearing us today here is if you aren't satisfied with your care, find somebody else. ⁓ There are plenty of providers out there. There are plenty of medical doctors, midwives, doulas, massage therapists, actually, I mean, ⁓ they're everywhere. emmamma: Yeah. Justine: So if you aren't satisfied with the care that you're getting, if you're not getting the answers that you feel are appropriate, find someone else. The functional doctors are... just as good, if not better than a lot of medical doctors that are clinically classically trained. ⁓ I had better luck with a functional doctor than I did with an OB. ⁓ The current OB that I'm with now is great. He's doing his job the way that he should have been decades ago, or I didn't find him until now, but. ⁓ emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Justine: Yeah, the functional doctor is the one who ended up finding ⁓ the adenomyosis for me this time around. So I highly recommend that. I highly recommend finding a provider who will actually listen to your symptoms and have a good conversation with you and not brush you off. They're out there. emmamma: ⁓ yeah, for sure. It's so important. It's so important to be able to do that. And man, is it also tough to advocate so hard over and over again when you know that something's going on and it took you so long to get that diagnosis. And that's the same for so many women because we're just not able to always be heard really well. I love that. think that's such an important thing that Justine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. emmamma: women and anybody can hear of just like keep trying to find the people that are gonna help you find what you need to be living the best life that you can be. Justine: Yeah. Yes. Yes. And talk, talk to people. This is not something that needs to be hidden or shushed or, ⁓ you know, swept under a rug. is fertility in general, infertility especially. It's challenging, it's hard, it's sad and it's taxing and it's so many different things, but you don't have to suffer in silence. There are so many people that once I was like, hey, I'm getting a hysterectomy, who out there has suggestions, what should I do, not do, get, not get that kind of thing. So many people chimed in that I was like, I would never have even known. putting that into the frame of mind for infertility, so many women suffer in silence because it's so personal. And I understand that it is very, very personal. It is a very personal journey. ⁓ But there are support groups out there. emmamma: Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. Justine: providers who can link you up with other people who have dealt with similar situations. And you know, your best friend might have dealt with something similar or know somebody who has, you just don't know until you talk. And so I really feel like having conversations is what needs to happen. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah, I think absolutely. And that's why I've been loving being on all these podcasts with people is like, I'm like, these are the conversations that we need to be having about all these different spaces. And so that people have these resources, but having these conversations with people just in our neighborhood and in our friend groups, and all of those things are really important to you mentioned a hysterectomy. Do you have any suggestions for bodywork or otherwise for people who have hysterectomies? Justine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ So far it's been honestly pretty unremarkable for me. I was kind of expecting it to be, and maybe I'm just not to that point yet. I'm only about nine or 10 weeks post-op. So it might just be that ⁓ I haven't done anything that challenges me in that way. ⁓ But I do actually have a PT session scheduled for Tuesday. emmamma: Yeah. Justine: I'm a big proponent of that. ⁓ I did a lot of PT prior to having the surgery done just to prepare and strengthen things that I knew I was going to lose muscle tone. ⁓ And I wanted to avoid as much loss as I could. ⁓ and hormones. ⁓ my God. The hormones. something that you need to advocate for. ⁓ emmamma: Yes. Justine: because going into instant menopause, which I was already halfway there anyway, so that didn't really happen for me. But going into instant menopause is not something I would recommend for anybody. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a huge, a huge switch for sure. And there's so, I think there's so much more research and knowledge around hormone replacement therapy out there now that there's a lot more resources. And so hopefully, yeah, that's great. Those are good things. Justine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, ⁓ the manual lymphatic work was super helpful. I actually did that on myself ⁓ post-op. And just to see the difference in the fluid change was pretty drastic. ⁓ So I would highly recommend if anybody's getting any sort of abdominal surgery to schedule some manual lymphatic sessions with a hands-on provider. ⁓ I know a lot of the plastic surgery offices emmamma: Mmm. Yeah. Justine: have, and this is plastic surgery, so this is different than just a hysterectomy, but ⁓ they have little contraptions that you can like sit in and have it pumped for you. But I've had some clients who have done both manual work and those, and they're like, it is 1000 times better to have your hands on my body versus that machine that fits somebody who's six foot two and five foot four, you know, it's just way more customizable. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. Yeah, absolutely. That seems obviously like it seems like something like that would be so much better to have it be so specific to you versus just in general. yeah. Amazing. Justine: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. emmamma: Well, what else do you want to share? You've shared so many insights of all these things, but is there anything that comes up for you or anything that like you wish you had heard when you were in this season of trying to figure things out? Justine: I feel like it's so common, it's been normalized to struggle for so long with infertility. And I really hate that because it's so frustrating. We are actively wanting something so much. And you go to your provider and you're like, I'm doing all of these things. I'm eating right, I'm not drinking, I'm sleeping well, I'm getting exercise, I'm doing all of the things. Why isn't it happening? And they're like, You know, it can take time. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Justine: It's so frustrating. And so like making sure that. emmamma: Yeah, for sure. Justine: I don't know, I just wish that there was more. ⁓ can't even say, like you can advocate for yourself so much, but I feel like, you know, providers get inundated with it and they are just like, ⁓ my gosh, another one. ⁓ And they really don't hear you. They don't hear us. ⁓ So when I was first, you know, figuring it out and she's like, well, we'll try you on progesterone. I was like, great, that's gonna be the end all be all. Like they didn't give me any more information past that. ⁓ I really had to do. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Right. Justine: the research myself to figure out like what the next step might be if this didn't work. ⁓ And I'm not sure why they withhold that information. I don't know. I guess person to person it could be different on how it's received. So I'm not sure why, but I need to know everything. I need to know everything so I can make an informed decision. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, which I think everybody has the right to do, right? Like it is helpful to have all the information so you can make an informed decision and a consensual decision instead of just being told like this is what you should do or there's no choices or all of those things. Yeah, absolutely. That's so good. Justine: Mm-hmm. Yes, I agree. Do you have a lot of people in your ⁓ care that are, you know, kind of brushed off regularly? emmamma: Yeah, I think so. And especially I think there's a lot of people who because they're not using hormonal birth control to avoid pregnancy, they kind of get like shewed very quickly of like, ⁓ like, I'll see you in nine months kind of thing. But on the flip side, like some people are really trying to get pregnant and they can't all the time. And so that's hard. think a huge part of what I'm working with clients is always helping them feel like they have the like the Justine: Mm. Yeah. emmamma: empower like, or feel empowered to be able to advocate well for themselves and especially with their cycles, be able to like, be like, no, no, no, like, I have this specific data that I can back up. And especially like, we're talking about menstrual bleeds to be like, no, like I am bleeding like 200 milliliters in seven days, right? Like, like that specific data can be so much more helpful for some, some providers to be like, ⁓ yeah, like that, that's a significant amount. So Justine: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right, yeah. That is helpful for sure. I don't think a lot of people understand how to get that information to their providers. It's so subjective a lot of times that it can be seen as... emmamma: That's what I hope for. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Justine: Anecdotal almost. I don't know. emmamma: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, like even in my own personal experience, I also have, I always am getting confused about how to pronounce it, but adenomyosis or however you pronounce that. Yeah, something like that. Either way, I need to like listen to it a couple of times to get it in my brain. But it's been something that's been recently diagnosed. But again, like I've had this bleeding, heavy bleeding, clots, all those things for my whole reproductive years. Justine: I don't I don't know either. Yeah. emmamma: And nobody really everybody just like quickly tries to write me a prescription for birth control. And I'm like, Nope, like I don't really want to like just cover up symptoms like I want to like figure out what's going on. And I finally like have had more conversations recently where I've gone in and been like, No, my cycles are regular. I'm ovulating regularly. There's nothing else going on other than and then I like give them specific data about like, on cycle day one, this is how much blood loss I have on cycle day two. And then they're like, Justine: Yeah Mm-hmm. ⁓ emmamma: ⁓ like that's way more specific versus me just being like, ⁓ I have heavy periods. And I think that's one of those things. Justine: I know they give you like a lot of providers are like if you're bleeding through a heavy pad ⁓ in an hour or something like that, that's like the queue and I'm like nah girl I was filling up my cup in like 45 minutes, you know and emmamma: Yeah. Right. Right, exactly. Exactly. Right. When you word it in that way, I feel like sometimes you like catch their attention a little bit better versus the other things. But on the flip side of that, I am also like you had mentioned earlier, I'm such a huge advocate for it just changing in our conversations to each other. Like within our our friend circles of like, this isn't really normal. It's common, but it's not normal. And especially with Justine: Yeah. emmamma: our younger generation of like, let's not just like brush, especially like heavy periods, painful periods, all of those things just under the rug because sometimes and again, like it comes up later in life too, when some people are trying to get pregnant that there's things that we could have gotten support early on if we had the knowledge base. Justine: Right, yeah. ⁓ yeah. I hear you so much. have three coming up into that phase of life and I'm like hyper diligent for them because I don't want them to have the same experiences of like, bleeding through clothing at school and like being completely wiped out for a day in the cycle or maybe more because they just are migraines because of the fluctuation of hormones or ⁓ emmamma: Yeah! Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Justine: So I'm really trying to encourage them to be very aware of their cycles and just correlate their emotions as well as their physical symptoms with what day are you? Where are you in your cycle? You're really emotional. You're probably a week out. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that's such, such helpful knowledge for especially young women, young kids that they have this knowledge base of like, okay, like, this is what could be going on. And this is why your body might be feeling this way and why you might be a little bit more emotional with something that you like, otherwise don't have an issue with normally, or other parts of your cycle and just having that knowledge piece can be have to give you so much more information and feel like you're not going crazy and all of those things, especially while while hormones are trying to regulate. Justine: Yeah, yeah. Or it just, yeah, and it just gives you the ⁓ wherewithal to say, hey, you know what? Not today. Like, I will 100 % give my daughter a pass if she is about to start her period because we, know, she is not that type of person to just butt heads with me on a regular basis. But then when that comes up, I'm like, emmamma: Yeah. ⁓ for sure. Mm-hmm. Justine: Okay, girl, where are you? What's happening? Okay, right. Then the next day she's like, started my period mom. like, I know. I know. emmamma: I get down. Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's such an important thing of just like making that more normal in general, especially in like our relationships with spouses or partners and with friendships and all of those things of just like, like you might want to be just aware and I think it can be helpful. Justine: Yeah. So where? Yep, just be aware. And yeah, I mean, she will come to me and say, Hey, you know, I'm sorry I was a brat yesterday. And I'm like, I'm grateful that you have the wherewithal to say that but I completely, I get it. emmamma: Yeah, for sure. And having that awareness, that acknowledgement is huge and there's grace in there too. Justine: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So I hope that she can learn from it too. you know, she's just starting. So there's going to be a lot of ups and downs and things like that. So, and I'm learning for her too. ⁓ So much has changed in our ⁓ community, not community, but just in general with ⁓ products, care products, things like that. I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, it's amazing. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, resources, yeah, absolutely. Justine: I love it for you. I'm grateful for that. emmamma: Yeah, I think that's, like you mentioned, like there's so many more options. It's not just ⁓ a pad or a tampon. There's period underwear and cups and discs and all of the different things and different sizes and gives so much more opportunity to feel comfortable when it's an uncomfortable experience otherwise. Justine: I know, I know. Mm-hmm. Right, yeah, free bleeding too. I mean, I know that that's a thing for people and just the fact that it's more ⁓ accepted, you know, because less stigma. And I love that. I'm like, let's talk, let's have these conversations. Let's make sure that we're all supporting each other through this because we've all been there. You're all gonna be there if you haven't yet. And, you know, we got the sage wisdoms from the ones who've gone before us too. emmamma: Yeah, ⁓ yeah. Yeah, there's less stigma around it. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely, for sure. That's so good. I so appreciate you being here with me and having all these conversations today. If somebody wants to find you, where should they reach out? Justine: So I have couple different ways. I'm on ⁓ and Facebook ⁓ my Summerville underscore MT. ⁓ And then ⁓ my website is also available. is anandamasageandbodywork.com. It is mouthful, ⁓ but it's there. Yeah, yeah. And lot of times if you can just search, you know, emmamma: Mm-hmm. We'll put those in the show notes, yeah. That's awesome. Justine: massage in Summerville, I pop up so. ⁓ But I'm happy to reach out or have anybody reach out to me to discuss anything, be it cycle related, be it massage, be it fertility, be it manual lymphatic work. If they just need somebody to help guide them to a therapist that is closer to them, I am all for it because I can't work on everyone and I want them to get the work that they need, ⁓ regardless of who it's with. emmamma: Yeah Justine: So I'm happy to do any sort of referrals if I can't help them. emmamma: That's so good. I'll make sure those in the show notes and I'm sure you'll have some people reaching out to you ⁓ and I really appreciate you being here. Justine: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. was a great conversation. emmamma: Absolutely I do. Thanks.