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To B or not to B Corp · Two in Twenty

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Tune20, the news podcast from the team at White Marble Consulting.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kirsten Hastings, head of content at White Marble.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: In each episode, I will be joined by two industry experts to lift the legal investment marketing issues, challenges, and industry trends.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Joining me in this episode are Lizzie Roman, impact and sustainability manager at Octopus Group, and Lisa Massacre, Senior Marketing Excites at White Marble.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Lucy and Lisa represent two businesses that have achieved B Corp certification.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: White Marble only recently, while Octopus Group is gearing up for recertification as they approach the three-year mark.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Over the next 20 or so minutes, we will delve into the reasons each company wanted to achieve B Corp certification, what the process was like, and how it has shaped the companies.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: In addition, Lucy and Lisa will share insights from their own experiences and address some of the misconceptions around B Corp submission processes.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: First and foremost, Lucy, it would be great if you could tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and Octopus Group.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've been at Octopus Group for just over two years now.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's an interesting company.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: We've got four main businesses across the group.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: We've got Octopus Energy, which most of you would have heard of, but actually it started with Octopus Investments in 2000.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: The energy business has actually only been around for about seven years.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: And along with that, we've got our Octopus Money business, which is all about democratizing access to financial education.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we have Aurora, which is a group of schools for specialist educational and needs disabilities across the UK.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: My role in the impact and sustainability team is slightly different to most kind of impact roles that you might imagine.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: I sit across the group, and the way that we look at impact and sustainability is it's not really a part of what we do, it is what we do as a group.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: So everything ladders up to impact and sustainability and responsible business behavior.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to B Corp certification, I guess the question is why do it?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: What are the benefits, Lucy, of getting B Corp certification?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very good question.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that there's a whole host of benefits of becoming B Corp certified.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: A, it's a stamp of approval.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: It shows that you really are serious about responsible businesses and to take into consideration your stakeholders.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: But also, I think lots of people forget the commercial benefits of becoming a B Corp.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, we're aligned to like-minded businesses.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: We're constantly getting put in touch with other B Corps and other B Corps want to do business with us.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's such a great thing to see.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just about increasing transparency.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the more businesses that become B Corps, it's not to say that they're perfect.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's to say, yes, we're serious.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: We know we need to improve.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's areas that we want to improve in.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we just want to be transparent about how we do business and what we're doing.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And other benefits, we've really seen, I mean, over the two turn-abit years that I've been octopus, I've really seen a huge culture change.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's not only a process that you go through every three years to recertify, but it's become really, really embedded in the business.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, when we report monthly to our employees, we talk across the stakeholders.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a language that helps us communicate past financial performance.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought it was super interesting what you said about having good company culture.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think now we have uh younger generations, they're asking organizations for their certifications and for their values.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if they are a B Corp, you do have that stamp of approval, but it's more than that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you have the B Corp, if you are certified, people know that you have a certain standard when it comes to how you operate, how you treat your employees, your customers, and the community around you.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me personally, I want to work for a company that really cares about its people and its clients and the community.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it really does shine true in people feeling more committed and maybe more curious and motivated.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that ultimately leads to what you said, Lucy, to a good company culture.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the longer you've been in the the B Corp process as a business, the more and more it becomes embedded within within that culture.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's probably fair to say that two and a bit years ago, the whole certification process was someone doing it on the side of their desks.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: It took 18 months or so, and it was a long process.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: But since then, we've really made a huge effort to talk about B Corp, to bring it into everyone's lives.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So everyone within the business will be able to explain what being a B Corp means to them.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: And they feel empowered to suggest new ways of doing things because it's more aligned to our B Corp status and it's aligned to our mission and how we do business.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And even like in the two years that I've been here, you you walk around the office and you hear people on the phones and they're having meetings, etc.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And even like our business activities are becoming way more aligned with mission, purpose, B Corp.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's all these conversations around net zero and biodiversity, and you know, people are thinking in the right way.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the B Corp certification has really helped bring people on that journey.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really interesting to hear from because at the moment we are at that crossroads, like we are certified what's next.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we've been through the whole process for the past couple of years.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And as we are a relatively young company and small business, we really focus a lot on growing and winning clients, but that also brings out growing pains.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for us, the first big part of B Corp was that it really helped us in providing a framework that showed the gaps that we needed to fill internally to make our business more aligned with the future, and one that feels still like us and what we believe in.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you don't have the internal expertise or resources, you can look at external guidance like B Corp.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And now we've done that first part.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: We are certified, and now we look at what's next, how can we engage our people and our employees?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why it's super interesting to hear what your experience is because you've seen that next step.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Lucy, one of the things that you mentioned was when you initially went through the process was that it was kind of one person, it was the side of their desk.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: But that's changed quite a bit now that you're going through recertification, hasn't it?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, totally.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think becoming certified has enabled us to get resource, I guess, weight behind the importance of the B Corp status.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we now have a team of, well, the impact and sustainability team, there's soon to be five members.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I will be the one running the recertification process.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: But what is amazing is that because the business understands the importance of it, I've got, you know, my key people across the whole business and all different areas who I can go to and have check-ins and see how they're getting on.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's the status?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Have we done this?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: And people are A, willing to help, B, it's built into their roles.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not, then we can work out how to build it in.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the pushback that you get across the business is so much less than it was, you know, two and a bit years ago, because it is that, you know, the whole company buy-in.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: And with something like this, it can't just be one person doing it.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: It it needs a it's a whole shift of of direction and behavior.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess the end goal of all of this is that we don't even need to talk about B Corp.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's just this is what we do and this is how we do it, and it just becomes the norm.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like we really are getting there, actually, which is which is really exciting.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can probably also speed up the process because even though if you are a smaller firm like we are, we have a lot of shorter communication line, we can act quickly.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've got a whole team helping you, I think that could speed it up.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and also from an efficiency point of view, it's great that it's becoming the norm.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody thinks in the same way, but it also helps if it saves you time.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's just something that you think about throughout the whole year.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like every team kind of understands they know what sort of questions are going to come up in the impact assessment.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: They they take the opportunity to embed new things when possible, and always thinking like what more can we do.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just about the points.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're not doing it to get more points and score the highest B Corp score that's possible.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's thinking like what is the right thing to do and what's best for us as a business because there is so many things in the impact assessment, and some things just aren't relevant, which you just have to, and you'll get this when you you probably have had this actually already, and you just think that's just not relevant to us, and it never is going to be.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not going to focus on that.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: But these are the kind of things that is really important to us as a services business, and we'll focus on those.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Just before we move on any further, you mentioned there there was a score.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain just for any of our listeners that might not be familiar with how B Corp certification allocates a score and what the numbers mean?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, sure.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: So to become certified as a B Corp business, you need to score a minimum of 80 points on the B Impact assessment, which is an online tool.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, for any business, I would recommend doing it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Just see where you it's it's a free tool.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone can go onto the website, fill out a big questionnaire, and you can just see where you are at.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you don't want to become a B Corp, it might give you tips and tricks on things that you haven't thought about as a business.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, as a side note, I would really recommend doing it anyway.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to score 80 as a minimum.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's out of 200.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it seems like it's quite low, but actually, it's you know, it's not easy to get 80 marks.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the highest score, some of the highest score is the companies like Patagonia, who's on about I want to say about 170 maybe.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we as as Octopus Investments, we're on in 2021, we got 94.6, and we're hoping to recertify as well.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to preempt things, but I'm hoping around like 115 or something like that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be great.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it would be amazing.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: You'll be but best in class.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Fingers fingers crossed.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: What did you score?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: We scored 82.6, I believe.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's good, because then you have so much room to improve.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what you said, saying to people, it's a free tool, go and fill out the assessment, because I think the impact areas that they measure you on, so your governance, the workers, community, environment, and customers, I think they are super helpful in pinpointing um some of the gaps, at least they have been for us.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a that's a great tip.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Also for any size business and for any stage of a company.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think like if you're a company which is trying to transition, how helpful is that to have a free tool where you can see what you know, you might not originally have been a purpose-led, great behaving business, but this will give you tips.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I encourage everyone to go and try it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that it's an interesting point you make there about the the life cycle of a business.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's a right or wrong answer for when do you need to apply or when is a good moment to go for it.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think when we talked about it before, you said that you were already quite um a mature business when you certified and that helped you and I'm not hopefully not putting words in your in your mouth, but that you had most of the policies and processes already in place and that could be a great starting point.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: But for younger businesses, it might be that you still are at the start where you need to think about diversity and equity and inclusion policy, but you don't really know what direction it should go in.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's super helpful.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe the only thing that I would say is that unless you're a startup, it might be a bit tricky.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can ask for the pending B Corp status because you do need to show data and performance, so it's basically another step before having the full certification.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's helpful to do regardless of where you are at, if you're around for a year or you've been operating operating for 50 years already.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: We touched on at the very start that the process to get B Corp certification is quite rigorous and it has got the impression that it's quite labor intensive.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: First and foremost, is that true?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: But are there any sort of myths or misconceptions about B Corp status or the process to get certified, Lucy, that you would like to dispel?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Good question.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, it is true that it is a long and hard process to go through, but if it wasn't long and hard, then you know it's not very credible.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it should be, and that's great.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Part of it, which is very frustrating actually, is the scoping process, which does take a long time, especially if you're a big business.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's the the kind of stage one where you speak to someone at B Lab UK, which is the UK body of B Corp, and you have to give them all of your information about the makeup of your business and the governance structures, etc.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that is quite a lot of back and forth, and that's quite long.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then you have the kind of process where you go through the impact assessment and they ask you for evidence and things like that.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, it's it's long but rigorous, and and that's great.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So no complaints really.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we're going through the recertification process at the moment again, is you know, quite long, but we'll get there.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of misconceptions, I think we slightly touched on it before, but I think there's a perception that if you're a B Corp, it means you're a purpose-led business.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, depending on one's definition of purpose, I think lots of people think, oh, B Corp, your business activities is making the world a better place.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, how is an espresso making the world a better place by making coffee capsules?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I would like to kind of highlight here is that B Corp for us and I think for the community is is more about encouraging transparency within business activities and business being done in the right way.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because all of these businesses are, you know, they're for-profit companies, it's not a charity.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Any business can become a B Corp depending, it doesn't matter.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, obviously, the business activities matter and you get higher scores if you are impact-led, but there is such a massive focus on good company behaviour and stakeholder management.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I think people get confused, and that's where there's been some kind of negativity in the press recently around certain companies becoming B Corp certified.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's great that BrewDog, for example, lost their certification.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: That was good about time.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of other myths, one misconception that I'd really love to dispel is the thought that people see a B Corp as a purposeful business, which has a trade-off between doing good and making money.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: We get lots of clients and investors coming to us and saying, Oh, you're a B Corp.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Does that mean you put your people and the planet ahead of profit?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, the way that we see it is that because we care about people, planet are stakeholders, and we have those values, in the long run, we will deliver higher returns.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: We will be a more successful business, as will other businesses.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no trade-off between doing good and making money.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: B Corp can mean different things to different businesses.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like a personality, and it it's that it's personal to a business.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to have a sustainable product or service per se, but it's how you operate and how you look at those impact areas on Nespresso.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's quite a tough one because at the moment I think uh they had quite a major negative impact on the environment in the past and on the community.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, as you rightly said, how can they become a B-Corp?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it is difficult because without us seeing the full picture, B Corp does see all the performance and all the data that they have been providing them, but we we really can't.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as B Corp is a tool to help companies improve in certain areas, excluding companies like Nespresso maybe also isn't the right way.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think that the responsibility lies with the companies itself and with their management in a in one way, because as you you said earlier, you can't score perfectly in all areas.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: But doing the bare minimum, on the other hand, also isn't great.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe us as shareholders or stakeholders or clients could ask for more transparency from those companies.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it would be quite interesting to see within a year time or a couple of years' time how have companies like Brutal, how have they changed their operating ways, or is it just for show?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you make a really good point there.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think another kind of misconception is the idea and thought that once you become a B Corp, you're perfect.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that opens up to criticism again.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: But the whole point of the B Corp certification is that you improve year on year, and that is like a requirement that you have to match.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about spotting where you need to make changes and making those changes.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think spot on, in terms of, you know, you don't want to exclude companies because if companies want to try and change, then that's brilliant.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: And they are open to being more transparent and doing an impact report every year because you have to do that if you're a B Corp and you know disclosing information, etc.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I think your point there is very good.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned earlier about the community that B Corp has.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we've just signed up to the Beehive community, basically talking to other B Corps.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can look at resources, you could ask questions.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like a marketplace or like a virtual platform or like a coffee place where you could just say, I have a question about this topic.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: How have you guys done it?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you're using as well, or is it mainly through your own network?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: I love the beehive.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: I use it quite a lot.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, it's helped me so much.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: For example, shout out to Bateswell's law firm.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: I um put a question out to the beehive and I asked if anyone had a supply due diligence questionnaire that I could look at.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are the questions that people are asking their suppliers?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are so many ESG questions that you can be tracking and asking, and really what are the ones that matter?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because otherwise, if you put everything in there, your suppliers aren't going to answer at all.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: So they sent me a really, really helpful template, which we've kind of taken and amended to fit our business.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: But it's really helpful for things like that or any event spaces which might be sustainable, just any questions that you have.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: People are so willing to help.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got our marketing team on it, I've got our people team are on it.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's just great for questions, really.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And people always respond.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And as a as kind of as a final question, we've kind of talked through the process and lifted the lid a little bit about what it involves.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: But are there any final tips for any of our listeners that might be considering going through the B Corp certification process that you would like to share, Lucy?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: I would say do it 100%.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: As we mentioned earlier, you're not losing anything from just trying to see where you score.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you do score under by, you know, a relatively significant amount, I wouldn't go for certification straight away.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: I would put some processes in place and, you know, make a few changes because it is unbelievably frustrating to go through the whole certification process and then not score those 80 points.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And when you are doing the impact assessment as a trial run, be on the like we're on the side of caution just in case, because what a waste of time to go through the whole thing to be then like for 10 points to be taken off.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: But apart from that, yeah, what I would love to see is just a hundreds of thousands.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: We are on, I think, 150,000 B Corps this week, I think it was.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: But the more businesses that really understand the importance of stakeholder management and not putting profit ahead of other stakeholders, the better.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that brings us to the end of our 20 minutes.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: My thanks to Lucy and Lisa for sharing their insights and expertise.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you have any questions about V Corp certification for financial services firms, or any other topics discussed in this episode, please get in contact to use more details in the description.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can subscribe to this podcast through Apple, Google, and Spotify.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: If there are any topics for investment artists you would like to invite me to cover, please do get in touch.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can also find episodes from our earlier podcast, Aim High, on Apple, Google, and Spotify.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.