Latest / Pod Save America / Sarah McBride's Challenge to Democrats

Transcript

Sarah McBride's Challenge to Democrats · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Today's presenting sponsor is SimpliSafe Home Security. The news cycle
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: may feel relentless, but worrying about your home security doesn't
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: have to be. Whether you're following the latest political updates
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: or need a break from the headlines, SimpliSafe provides proactive
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: protection so you can enjoy some daily peace of mind. Lovett,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: you've set up a SimpliSafe?
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: Very easy to do.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Right out of the box, it works.
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: You can just customize it to your home and then
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: set it up, and it works great. Completely reliable. The
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: customer service is great. And when you go on vacation
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: or you're out for a while, it's nice to know
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: that the house is, you know, covered. You don't have
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: to think about it. You can check. Oh, good. Also,
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: by the way, when you leave and you forget, you
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: can use the app to put the alarm on. The
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: app is really great.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I highly recommend it. It's not just for you, too.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: It's for Pundit.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's for Pundit. Pundit must be secure.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: And millions of other Americans enjoy the new standard in
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: home security and greater peace of mind every time they
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: arm their system. When heading out in the morning or
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: when locking up each night, traditional security systems only take
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: action after someone.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Already broke in. That's too late.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: SimpliSafe's ActiveGuard outdoor protection can help prevent break-ins before they happen.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: No long-term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: at around $ 1 a day. 60-day satisfaction guarantee or your
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: money back. Visit simplisafe.com slash crooked to claim 50% off
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: your first month free. That's simplisafe.com slash crooked. There's no
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: safe like SimpliSafe. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: So we just talked to Congresswoman Sarah McBride from Delaware,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and boy, that.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Was a great conversation.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: We're huge fans. Yeah, we talked to her for about
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: an hour. Really moving.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: We talked about the Democratic Party, the future of the
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Democratic Party, the generational split, the obligations and pressure she
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: feels as the first transgender member of Congress, some of
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: her beliefs about where the party.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Should go, how they should handle certain issues.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: I can't believe she said that about AOC.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I And Schumer.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: And Schumer.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Wow. Really? Wow.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: What she said about Schumer.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Really went on Schumer. Just kidding.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Just kidding. She's probably listening to this now. Anyway, it
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: was like one of my favorite conversations. I told her
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: on the way out, like it made my week. Because,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: you know, it's been a tough week in the news,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: in politics. And if you felt like you've been watching
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the news and getting really anxious and losing sleep, this
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: conversation is like a bomb. Because Sarah McBride is just
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: a wonderful human being, and we're very lucky to have
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: her in Democratic politics.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: She's very smart about what it means to be tackling
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: politics in such a dark moment. So really worth listening.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: So enjoy the interview.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Congresswoman Sarah McBride, thank you so much for joining.
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: So you've wanted to be involved in politics since you
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: were a kid. You founded a Young Democrats organization for
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: high schoolers, got elected student body president of American University,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: worked on campaigns after college, ran for state senate, made
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: history by winning this seat, which I imagine is a
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: job that you dreamed of as a kid. But now
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Trump also wins, so do Republicans, and now we're all
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: in the bad place. And I guess I wonder how
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: you're processing all that. How have your expectations of serving
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: in Congress matched up with the reality of this moment
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: that we're all living in right now?
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: Well, thank you for revealing that I was an insufferable
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: young person.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, so were we.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: It's a table of insufferable young people.
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: I broke the first rule of politics, which was to
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: pretend like you just rolled out of bed one day
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: and found yourself in elected office. I was really interested
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: as a young person. But for me, I think it
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: was rooted in my own journey to authenticity, my own
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: struggle with how I fit into this world. I think
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: as a young person, I felt alone and I worried
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: whether the heart of this country was big enough to
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: love someone like me. And I found hope in politics
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: as a means to change that and as a means
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: to build a kinder, more inclusive, fairer world. And so
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: I got involved. And I think in many ways, that
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: journey into politics prepared me for this moment. Because I
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: think Right now, people across this country are wondering whether
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: the heart of this nation is big enough to love
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: them too. And I think similar to how I felt
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: as a young person, we're facing a crisis of hope.
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: So in many ways, it's prepared me for this moment
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: because it's allowed me to understand where so many people
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: right now in this moment are, feeling like you can't
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: see the light at the end of the tunnel, feeling
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: like you are unsure whether.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Our politics could ever work for you.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: But it has also left me, I think, fundamentally still
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: hopeful because I have been able to bear witness to
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: change that once seemed so impossible to me as a
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: kid that it was almost incomprehensible, not only become possible,
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: become a reality. Now, this is not the moment that
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: I would have hoped to be entering Congress in. I
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: hoped to be entering Congress in at a time where
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: we would be doing what I was able to do
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: in the Delaware State Senate, which was pass paid family
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: and medical leave and expand access to childcare and make
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: healthcare more affordable. And obviously that's not the reality that
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: I'm entering in writ large. And then specifically I'm entering in,
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: in what is truly a perfect storm for a person
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: like me. It's been hard. It's been disheartening to see
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: that so much of success in Congress on the other
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: side of the aisle is purely defined by attention, not
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: attention in pursuit of progress, but just attention for attention's sake. Um,
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: and obviously it's been hard personally to be on the
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: receiving end of pretty sustained disinformation, misinformation, aggression, um, but
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: I think it's also strengthened my resolve because I feel
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: like these people can not win. Um, and despite the
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: ups and the downs, and I know this sounds cliche
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: and I know it sounds trite, but I am genuinely
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: in awe. Like I am genuinely in awe that I
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: have the privilege of being there. I am, I am
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: so grateful to Delaware and every time I, I'm back
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: in Delaware, the love that people envelop me with, in
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: contrast to some of the experiences I have in Congress, just,
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: it fills my tank and rejuvenates my energy and it
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: makes me fall more deeply in love with my state
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: and it allows me, I think, to defend them even
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: more ferociously and persistently. And, you know, when you are there,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: I remember when I went on the floor for the
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: first time, and it is that the air is heavy
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: with history. And I do genuinely think back to all
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: of the challenges that my predecessors have faced. And you
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: cannot tell me that the reasons for hopelessness now are
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: greater than the reasons for hopelessness then.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: We want to talk about sort of your day-to-day experience,
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: but I think something we've struggled with, and I'm wondering
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: if you've struggled with this. You know, when we started
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: this company, it was right after Trump.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Wins.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: And everything about what we were talking about was how
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: you fight back from behind, that we're going to defeat Trump,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: we're going to come back stronger, we're going to learn
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: the lessons of it, and we're going to build something better.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: I think we all grew up in a more optimistic
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: time around politics, and even Barack Obama would talk about
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: there are setbacks, take a step back, and then there's
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: two steps forward. I do sometimes wonder if we were
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: all a bit ill-prepared for a moment of genuine backsliding. That, no,
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: this isn't about just arresting this so we can keep
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: this N-word march forward, but we are in a struggle
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: right now that's not about progress, but about just protecting
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: the country from a terrible slide into autocracy, into radicalism.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if that's caused you to think back
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: on some of your priors to change how you talk
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: about politics.
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: Yes and no. I think that this is obviously an
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: existential moment. There is very real risk that this country
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: backslides into, perhaps at best, an illiberal democracy. And I
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: also think we have to recognize that the way to
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: stop that is to change public opinion. And we have
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: limited levers at our disposal, but we still have the
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: lever of public opinion. And I do think that there
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: are lessons from our politics that remain true in how
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: we change public opinion. Because I think one problem that
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: we have had over the last several years, and look,
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: we are not in this moment because of us. We
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: are in this moment because of Donald Trump and a
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: sustained right-wing disinformation and misinformation campaign. And I also think
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: over the last few years, We as a party, as
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: a progressive movement, lost the art of social change. We
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: became so consumed with being pure and right. We rightfully
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: responded to the abuse of people's grace, but we overcorrected
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: and we eliminated grace from our politics. And I think
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: that we have to recognize that in order to stop this,
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: we have to win people back over. I think voters
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: ask two fundamental questions. One is, do you like me?
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: The second is, what do you think? What are your positions?
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: They don't care about that second question if they can't
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: answer that first question to their satisfaction. And I do
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: think that we have, I think we did delude ourselves.
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: I think one of the priors that I have checked is,
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: I think I fell into a camp that overestimated how
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: far we had come, that overestimated the sort of cultural
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: victory of the left. That, I think that prior I
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: have changed. The prior that I have not changed is
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: that there is an art to politics. There is an
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: art to building a coalition that I think we lost.
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: I don't think we are in this moment because we
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: didn't scream and yell enough. I don't think we are
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: in this moment because we didn't cancel and shame enough people.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: I don't think we're in this moment because we didn't
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: correct enough people. I do think that we have to
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: try something different than what we've been doing over the
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: last couple of years as a movement. And I mean
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: that broadly. And I think that that means returning back
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: to basics in some ways.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in the idea that we have
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: to broaden the coalition, persuade more people. I also have
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: felt since Trump has taken office again, you've probably heard
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: us yelling about this on the pod, especially the last
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks. that there is this need to stand
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: up and speak out and fight. I don't see reaching
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: out to people, bringing them in as mutually exclusive from fighting,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: but it's hard to, I found it difficult to articulate that.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: And because I think that everything is so black and
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: white these days and social media fuels that and everything else.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: And so you tell people, we got to reach out
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: and say, no, it's time to fight. And then you
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: fight and some people are like, why are you fighting?
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: You got to reach out.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: How do you think about both of those strategies? Sure.
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: So I think this is a moment that calls us
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: to fight hard and fight smart. I don't think we
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: should retreat from issues, particularly issues of basic principle. I mean,
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: I think what we're seeing right now with the elimination
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: of due process as people are sent off to a
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: foreign gulag as a matter of basic principle, it's a
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: red line. And even beyond that, we shouldn't shy away
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: from fights. We should just fight them in a way
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: that meets people where they are. So let's talk about
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: what's happening on immigration and let's make it not just
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: about the folks who are being sent off, but let's
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: also make it about voters. Because if they can do
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: this to any number of folks who are here legally
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: or who are undocumented, If there is no process, that
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: means they can do it to you. They can do
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: it to me. And none of us are safe. That
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: might not have been an acceptable sort of path just
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: a couple of years ago in terms of messaging, right? Similarly,
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: we can say in the same breath that we don't
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: have to choose between securing our border and protecting due
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: process and that we are a party that wants to
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: secure our borders. A couple of years ago, we couldn't
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: say that. I think that's a lesson learned that we
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: can fight, but we can fight smart. I also think,
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: and this is something that I've been thinking a lot about,
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: because I do think there's a lot of conversation about
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: how Donald Trump breaks the rules and Democrats play by
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: the rules. And I think that there's truth.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: To that, right?
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: I think clearly Donald Trump breaks rules that he's held
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: to and we hold ourselves back. And I also think
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: the reality is, is that there are two different standards
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: for the parties. And I've been thinking about how do
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: you fight back against Trump in a smart way, sort
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: of in a writ large, because we are so susceptible
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: to sort of this Trump derangement syndrome dynamic. We've been
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: screaming about democracy and rights and the rule of law
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: for so long. And clearly this country voted for someone
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: who incited an insurrection. And I've been thinking about how
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: do we fight smart in a macro way? And how
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: do we recognize that there are two different standards for
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: the parties? And those two different standards make a lot
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: more sense when you recognize that they are just the
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: replication of sexism and misogyny. The Democratic Party is the
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: woman of politics and the Republican Party is the man
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: of politics. It's why Donald Trump can scream and yell
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: and people see him as strong and why when we
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: scream and yell, we're seen as hysterical and shrill. It's
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: why Donald Trump can hate and insult more than half
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: of this country and Because we tolerate deadbeat dads, but
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: Democrats can't say anything about any voters that impugns their
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: motives and their good faith because a mom has to
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: love every single one of her children. And so I've
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: been thinking about how do you grapple with that reality?
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: That is a real double standard. We can't pretend that
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: it doesn't exist. Marginalization doesn't stop in politics. We recognize
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: it exists in our individual lives. Systemically, it exists in
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: our politics. And so we have to grapple with the
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: world as it is to change it. And I've been
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: thinking about how does a woman successfully push back, navigate
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: a workplace, a world, where so often her passion is
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: held against her. And the socially acceptable path for a
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: woman to fight back, unfortunately, is when she is defending
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: her flock, when she is defending her family. And I
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: think we as a party would do well in replicating
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: the strategies that women so have to employ to successfully
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: navigate this world. And instead of fighting back in a
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: way that makes Trump the main character, fight back in
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: a way that makes consistently our constituents, individual people, human
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: beings the main character. Trump can be a supporting character,
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: but we do fall in this trap of making him
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: the main character. And I think if we always, always,
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: always keep it local, keep it centered on our constituents,
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: on people that we're defending, not only does it allow
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: us to fight back and have that passion in a
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: way that is heard the way we want it to
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: be heard, but I also think it helps to reinforce
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: for a voter, the answer to the question that I
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: said at the start, which is, do you care about me?
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: Do you like me? Because I think people think we
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: don't like them.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because as you were talking about, there's
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: double standards for the parties. There's also two different goals.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: And when people complain that Republicans are breaking the rules,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Democrats are playing by the rules, We're also trying to
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: build a rules-based society. And when you were talking about
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: women defending their flock, we're also trying to build a
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: country that is a multi-ethnic, multi-racial democracy where everyone has
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: equal rights and is protected under the law.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: And so we.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: We're all about addition, not just because we need to
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: build a majority, but because our belief is that everyone
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: has worth and that everyone can make it here and
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: that we don't need to pit people against each other.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: So I do, when people are like complaining about that,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, well, we can't, then we'd just be hypocrites.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Right, right, right.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I mean, you are 100% right that we want a rules,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: you know, the rule of law. We want basic common
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: decency and we want a government that provides equality under
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: the law for every person. And even if that weren't true,
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: we would have to grapple with the double standard.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, yeah, we're playing games against cheaters. We are
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: trying to prove to people that it's a game worth playing, right?
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: We can't cheat too. Give us an example of this.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: I'm interested in this uh, Democrats, uh, are the, the,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: are being treated like women and Republicans are being treated
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: like men. One issue that I think where it's, this is,
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: you see a classic, like a lot of kind of, no, no,
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't focus on that. We need to focus on
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: the economy to focus on tariffs. We shouldn't focus on say, uh,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: the president attacking private universities, uh, and trying to become
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: basically Dean of Harvard and Dean of Princeton is how
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: would you now let's, let's test this new way of
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: talking about it. It's your idea. You're here. You're trying
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: to make people understand how dangerous it is that Donald
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: Trump is coming after basic academic freedom, but you're worried
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: it's not going to resonate with people. How do you
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: talk about it?
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: Look, I think, one, as with all of these actions
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: that we're seeing against, whether it's immigrants, whether it's against institutions, right,
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: they are picking on the most unpopular, right, the most vulnerable.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: They're picking on people who are easy targets. And I
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: do think in this instance, look, I'm talking from a
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: macro level, right? I think we should be, when we're
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: talking about the attacks of the administration, let's talk about
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: that they're stealing from farmers. Let's not make it Donald Trump.
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: But when we're going in on those issues, when we
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: have to go in on and respond to what is
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: a blatant attempt to silence and intimidate people, I do
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: think you have to go back to what we were
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: talking about before, which is that if they can do
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: it here, they can do it to you. If they
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: can do it here, they can do it anywhere. If
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: they can do it to this institution, they can do
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: it to my constituents. I don't think it's a fundamental
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: change in the fights we pick. I don't think it's
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: a fundamental change in the arguments we're making. I do
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: think it is a fundamental change in the main character
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: in the story that we're telling. And the main character
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: in the story that we tell so often as Democrats
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: is Donald Trump. And I think we can do a
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: better job by making the main character our constituents. That
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: doesn't mean that every single talking point and every single
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: issue suddenly becomes, well, they're attacking Harvard.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Well, this farmer in.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: My district, right?
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: But it is the story on a macro level that
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: you're telling, right? And so, yes, I respond to, you know,
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: I've spoken out on a whole host of these Issues
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: that some of my colleagues, I presume, think we shouldn't
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: be speaking out on. And we're still keeping the main
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: thing the main thing. We can do both things. And
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: we can tell fundamentally a story that one in two
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: kids in this country are potentially about to have their
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: health care either undermined or eliminated. That one in five
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: Americans are seeing their health care ripped out from under them.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: That Head Start is being defunded. and that there are
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: families in my state that are about to lose access
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: to quality early childhood education, right? When we talk about it,
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: we should just keep bringing it back to the people
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: we represent, to the flock that we represent, to the
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: families that we're protecting. And I don't think we always
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: do that. And I feel like that's a cliche thing
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: to say, but we've lost that. I do think we've
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: lost that because I think we have, we are talking
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: so often nationally That like in Congress, we forget that
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: we are representing our district and we are each messengers
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: in our own districts.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is brought to you by Strawberry. If
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: you're feeling stuck, whether you're in a job that doesn't
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: fit anymore or out there looking for something better, you're
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: not alone.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: And here's the truth. People who get ahead in their careers,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: they don't just get there by chance. Well, not most
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: of them.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Some of them do.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: Some of them start.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Some of them.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Are in the right place at the right podcast time.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of chance there. That's where today's sponsor, Strawberry.me,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: comes in. Strawberry offers certified career coaching, real, vetted experts
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: who will help you figure out what you want next
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: and build a plan to actually get you there.
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: It's like therapy for your career.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Whether you're aiming for a raise, pivoting to a new field,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: or trying to get hired in a competitive job market,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: this helps.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: You take a quiz, you get matched with your coach,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: and you start making moves. You've got to make those moves.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: In this economy, with the S & P doing what
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: it's doing... You got to stay, keep your head on
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: a swivel. It's flexible. It's affordable.
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: It works.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Go to strawberry.me slash cricket to claim your $ 50 credit.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: That's strawberry.me slash cricket.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Because if you want real career success, you can't leave
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: it to chance. Get the right coach and make it
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: happen with Strawberry. You said something interesting a minute ago
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: that I think ties into this, which is a few
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: years ago, Democrats might not have wanted to talk about
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: protecting due process.
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: Right. But at the same time, you said a few
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: years ago, Democrats might not want to talk about border security.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: What do you think led to the point where Democrats
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: were unable to talk about both the basic values of
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: rule of law and the basic values of generosity and
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: protecting basic rights? How did we end up in a
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: place where there was nothing you could say about immigration? Well.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: What do you really, I feel like you have thoughts
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: on this.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: I think, first off, I think one of the problems
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: in politics is that people will often, people think that
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: there are these binary choices between being true to ourselves
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: and saying everything we believe in exactly the way that
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: feels viscerally comforting to us or be completely poll tested
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: and only talk about the issues in the way that
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: the polls tell us to talk about them or not
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: talk about them at all because the polls aren't good. And,
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: I think that that is a false choice in our politics.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of times you see politicians who
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: will say, if I can identify a risk to something,
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: that means I shouldn't do it. We are, as human beings,
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: very bad at evaluating risk and reward. And so I
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: think on the one hand, you've had a dynamic where.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: We were lulled into a false sense of security of
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: the sort of cultural momentum of where we were. And
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: I think it created an absolutism that has increasingly shrunk
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: our ranks because it has excluded people who are with
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: us on 90% of things but disagree with us on
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: 10% of things. I think people have been scared of
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: getting canceled online. They've been scared of.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: Backlash to nuance. They've been scared to do politics because
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: it's not appropriate performative outrage online. So I think they've
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: been scared into not employing an approach that meets voters
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: where they are. But then on the flip side, after
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: the last election in particular, there was such a backlash
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: to that that people went, The lesson learned here is
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: that we can never talk about these things, that we
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: have to completely reject it.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: It's all price of eggs. Right?
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: And it's all price. And there is, for lack of
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: a better term, a third way here.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, no. Oh, the last we'll ever see is Sarah McBride.
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: Nice to know you. There is a way to, again,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: fight hard and fight smart. There's a way of, I
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: always think about a political leader should be in front
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: of public opinion. Like we are not, we are not
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: completely without agency and shifting and shaping public opinion, but
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: we do have to be within proximity of public opinion.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: We have to be within arm's reach because if we
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: get too far out ahead, we lose our grip on
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: the public and we are no longer able to pull
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: them along with us. And I think you've got some
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: people who want to be so far out ahead because
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: it plays well on social media because they feel viscerally
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: good about themselves. that they lose their grip and they
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: can't pull them along. And then you've got other people
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: who are so scared to be even an inch in
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: front of public opinion that they hide within public opinion
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: and hope that no one notices.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Do you think this is a generational thing? And by that,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, not old and young, but like our generation. Like,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I feel like we were all came, and you're younger
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: than us, of course, but we all came of age
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: in the Obama presidency. And I think a lot of
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: what you're saying, what we're saying, I think we learned
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: from watching him and growing up in that time. And
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I think, I always think that we're in an interesting
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: spot where like people younger than us, younger Gen Zers
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: might not understand, um, or are frustrated with the idea
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: of not being too far out ahead of public opinion.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: And then people older than us are like, no, no, no,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: you can't lead on any of this stuff.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: I think that is probably, that's probably right, that we
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: are a byproduct of witnessing firsthand. Look, Barack Obama is
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: still popular, even in our politics. Barack Obama is still
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: popular for a reason. His approach to politics is still popular.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: And one of the things that frustrates me as I
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: navigate some of these issues and try to provide a
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: glimpse into my approach to change-making. Because I fundamentally agree
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: with the goals of the progressive movement. And I think
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: that you have to be strategic in how you pursue
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: those goals. And I think, you know, we've got a
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: lot of folks who don't realize that Barack Obama opposed
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: marriage equality for most of his political career. I mean,
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: he kind of like, he supported it, then he changed
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: his position, and then he supported it again. But Where
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: would we have been as a party or for that matter,
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: where would the gay rights movement have had been if
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: they excommunicated John Kerry for not being in support of
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: marriage equality? If they excluded both Hillary Clinton and Barack
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: Obama in 2007 and 2008 for not being in favor
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: of marriage equality? Where would we have been? And now, though,
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: the mentality is if if we were replicating that now.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: They would be evil bigots. who have no place in
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: our coalition and even making coalition with them, let alone
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: supporting them, would be cavorting with the enemy. And I
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: remember the marriage movement. I remember that time in our
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: politics very well. That is a formative moment in my life.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: And we recognize that politics requires people to do politics,
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: that it requires people to be smart and thoughtful about
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: how they reach people. And that accessibility, being accessible to
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: voters in how you talk and how you communicate is
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: a fundamentally progressive value.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: I remember, I think back on that because that was
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: very formative for me too. And I remember I worked
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: for Hillary Clinton when she was navigating marriage equality. And
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: I remember when she went and spoke at the Human
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: Rights Campaign and she said, I am for civil unions.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: And it was a huge applause moment, right? In part
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: because it was defining as Republicans that were trying to
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: put a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage into the US Constitution.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: And then I remember about a year or so later,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: or maybe two years later, she said the same thing.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: And it was more like, and it's interesting because that
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: is not an example of political leaders pulling people along, right?
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: I do think public opinion moved ahead of where Barack
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Obama was, where Hillary Clinton was, where public figures were.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: And I wonder if there's a lesson there too.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: I think there's a lesson there too, but I also
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: think that by providing people with some space to have
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: that conversation, by not, one, making it so clearly partisan, right?
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: You're a Democrat if you support marriage equality. You're a
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: Republican if you don't support marriage equality. But by creating
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: a little bit more space in our tent in that conversation,
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: it allowed us to be in coalition and conversation with
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: people who weren't yet there as an elect. I'm not
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: talking politicians. I mean an electorate. We were able to
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: have a conversation with an electorate that had some space
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: and grace for people to grow, one. Two, I also
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: think that yes, public opinion was a little bit ahead
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: of them, but one of the reasons why there was
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: a change, and that applause is obviously, that's the choir, right?
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: So there's a different level of enthusiasm over time. But
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: within the public, Barack Obama evolving on marriage was helpful
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: in changing public opinion. And beyond President Obama, everyday people
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: who evolved on marriage were helpful. We know the best
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: messengers on the marriage movement were those who previously opposed
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: marriage equality and changed their mind because it gave permission
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: to people that it was okay to have been wrong.
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: It's okay to be wrong. We don't think you're a
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: terrible person. We understand that you're grappling with this. And
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: here's why we've changed. And it created a path for people.
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: And That's the art of social change that I feel
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: like we've lost over.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: The last couple of years.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: There's been a lot of talk about sort of the
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: generational split in the Democratic Party. You're 34, which in
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Congress makes you a child.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: Basically a fetus. And that is the only way Republicans
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: will acknowledge my rights.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Some of it is about age.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Some of it's about age. Some of it's about style
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: and strategy. Do you feel that split among your colleagues?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Do you think it matters? I.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: I do think that there is a range in skill
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: with certain media and a range of style and approach.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: But I also don't think it's exclusively that. And I
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: also think that we benefit from a range of messengers, right?
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: There are a lot of people on social media and
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: we should be there. And there are folks who do
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: watch the nightly news and do read the newspaper. And yes,
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: they are overwhelmingly favoring us, partly because they're watching traditional
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: media and they're getting our message. And that's where we
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: have exclusively been, and partly because they're predisposed to be Democrats,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: college educated, all of those things. But I mean, I
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: think we benefit from a range of messengers and a
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: range of tactics and a range of strategies. I don't
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: want every single member of Congress to be employing the
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: same strategy. right? Whether that's the strategy of someone who
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: is just talking on MSNBC or just talking to the
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: New York Times or the strategy of someone who's just
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: out there killing it on TikTok, right? And so there
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: is a range. I think that's a good thing. And
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: I think that some of us can get better at
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: certain parts of that and we can be more intentional
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: about how we navigate all of the different diversified media
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: and the ways we do it. but I don't want
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: everyone to do the exact same strategy. And I think, again,
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: we sort of shoot ourselves in the foot by demanding
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: that everyone be AOC and Bernie. I am so glad
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: they're doing what they're doing, but I also want someone
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: who's like going into the senior center and just having
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: like a conversation in, you know, about social security with.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Their- They don't need to do a TikTok dance while
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: they're there.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, right?
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: And that's actually the problem is that we've like, we've
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: tried to universalize this approach and- it gets pretty cringe. Yeah.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Is there something about
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: finances you learned later in life you wish you had
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: known about when you were younger? Yeah, don't leave all
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: your money in the bank.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, put it in your walls. buy the dip don't
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: just have.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: A checking account until you're 35 oh man april is
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: financial literacy month that's right they made a whole month
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: reminding you to finally take control of your money good
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: news is you don't need 30 days acorns makes it
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: easy to start saving and investing for your future in
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: just five minutes you don't need to be an expert
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: your money goals you don't need to be rich acorns
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: lets you get started with the spare money you've got
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: right now even if all you've got is spare change
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Investing can seem impossible and financial wellness may feel out
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: of reach, but Acorns does the hard part so you
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: can give your money a chance to grow. You can
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: create your Acorns account and start investing in as little
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: as five minutes. They provide simple guidance to get you
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: and your money on track. Sign up now and join
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: the over 14 million all-time customers who have already saved
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: and invested over $ 25 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: slash crooked or download the Acorns app to get started.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Tier 3 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: and SEC-registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash cricket.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: So you mentioned AOC. Part of, I think, we face
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: this challenge here. I'm sure you face it, that more
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: and more, it's not about, yes, what the message is
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: is important, but it's becoming more difficult to get that
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: message to the people that need to hear it. We
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: have the people. that are watching that out or just
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: consuming newspapers. Um, there was this fight over whether AOC
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: or Jerry Connolly would lead the, be the ranking member
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: of oversight. Uh, there was a moment where, uh, Connolly, uh,
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: went back and forth, um, uh, with, uh, Nancy Mace
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: over trans issues. And, uh, In that moment, I thought, wow,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: do I wish AOC was the person in this colloquy
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: rather than Jerry Connolly? He just seemed just from another era.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: And I wonder if your colleagues view that vote as
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: a mistake, if we would be better off if AOC
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: were in that position over someone like Jerry Connolly. Sorry
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: to put you on the spot. You have a face
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: you make when you're on the spot. That's helpful to know. Yeah,
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: I'm a bad poker player.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Here's what I'll say.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: I think AOC is one of the most talented political leaders, messengers,
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: communicators we have in the party. And I would love
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: to see more opportunities for her to lead not just,
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: you know, by creating her own structures to lead, which
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: she's doing a great job of alongside Bernie with the tour.
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: I would love to see opportunities for her to have
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: an institutional microphone that in the House, in the caucus.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, AOC overperforms. She does very well, right? I
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: think we would benefit from having her with a microphone,
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: with a gavel. I'm not going to make a comment
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: on where my other colleagues are on a particular committee
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: conversation I think you can gather that I want to
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: see her have more opportunity in the party. And I
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: think that that conversation is a good example of if
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: you can identify risk, you say, well, then we can't
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: do it. Yeah.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say like that goes to
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: your point about nuance too, right? Which is AOC is
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: very progressive, but I also think she is very focused
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: and very talented at.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: The art of persuasion. Agreed.
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: Agreed. And I actually think trans issues have been a
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: great example of that. When the bathroom thing came up,
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: she led on a message around the impact it would
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: have on all women. And now I got to tell you,
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: if it wasn't AOC making that argument, they might have
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: gotten a lot of critique from the trans community. But
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: the argument that they were putting forward was not an
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: argument about the trans community. It was an argument about
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: cisgender women. But she was absolutely right. And then in
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: the weeks and months afterward, when there was an anti-trans
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: bill before the House, what messaging did the caucus use?
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: Two or three messages in particular was a message around
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: local control. There was a message that sort of was
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: about the efforts to distract and divide. And then there
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: was a message about this would empower grown men to
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: ask invasive questions, or even require the bodily inspection of
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: girls as young as five, right? And that was an AOC.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: Forged message, so I agree.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: So it's maybe a good segue into, you made this
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: point when you were talking to The Atlantic about the
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: ways in which we took certain things for granted and
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: that maybe that some of the glow off of a
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: lot of work on the LGB was hopefully carrying over
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: quickly to the protection of the T, and that maybe
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: we didn't do enough work on helping people understand the
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: T part of the LGBT, and that made the support
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: a little bit more shallow than we realized. Can you
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: talk a bit about that? Sure.
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: So I remember back in 2015, 2016, when it felt
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: like we were on this unending, cresting wave of progress
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: for the entirety of the LGBTQ community, as we saw
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: the bathroom bill blow up in Pat McCrory's face in
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: North Carolina, the governor who had signed it into law,
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: as general public support and cultural acceptance of trans people
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: seemed to be growing and growing and growing pretty rapidly,
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: people would say, why do you think this is happening
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: so quickly? And I think I rightfully observed, I was like, well,
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: I think one, there was, to your comment, there was
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: a transfer of support from the LGB to the T
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: because it's all one acronym. But I think two, there
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: was another lesson that people had in that moment, which
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: was they were like, I remember not understanding gay people.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: And because of that, I remember being wrong on marriage.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: And I don't want to be wrong again just because
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: I don't understand trans people. So I'll get on board
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: with trans rights, even though I don't understand trans people.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: And what that meant was that that support was sort
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: of a mile wide, but an inch deep. It was
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: a house built on sand. And I think because of that,
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: We were lulled into a false sense of security, which
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: I've said multiple times here. And I think didn't sort
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: of do the necessary work, as unfair as it might be,
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: because change-making is not always fair. We didn't do the
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: necessary work that the gay rights movement had done over
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: a period of 20 years of deepening understanding of gay
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: people so that the support for marriage was built on
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: genuine understanding. We didn't do that work because we thought
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: we were past it. And I think one of the
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: lessons for me now is that if we want to
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: have any fighting chance of getting this thing back on
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: track for trans people, we've got to return to the basics.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: We've got to fill a knowledge gap that exists and
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: still exists. And that is unfair. It feels like we've
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: been fighting for a while. But again, you can't overcome
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: marginalization if you aren't going to grapple with the fact
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: that marginalization is inherently unfair and ending it is unfair.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It really resonated with me because it helped explain
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: something that I feel has been missing because the public
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: debate ends up being around these issues like bathroom bills, sports,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: and even gender-affirming care. This is really important. I'm not
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: saying it's only focused on these other issues. But even that,
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: we've skipped the step of just helping people understand what
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: is it like to be trans, right? And even in
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: a forum like this, we talk about how we never
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: had that conversation. And I'm just wondering what your experience
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: has been just talking to people in Delaware when they
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: ask you about this. Like, how much do you find
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: it helpful to just talk about the experience of what
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: it was like to realize you were trans? Like, I
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: haven't heard you talk about that very much.
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, I wrote a book about it. I've spent,
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: I had spent a decade doing that. And I think
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: in many ways- one of the reasons why Delaware.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Has, I.
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: Think, interacted with me and trans rights in a way
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: that has felt a little bit different than politics elsewhere
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: is because I feel like Delaware had a 10 to
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: 15 year conversation about what it was like, what it
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: means to be trans. And I think one of the
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: challenges that we have in conversations around trans identities that's
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: different than conversations around gay rights is that most people
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: who are straight can understand what it feels like to
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: love and to lust. And so they're able to enter
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: into conversations around sexual orientation with an analogous experience. And
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: people who aren't trans don't know what it feels like
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: to be trans. And for me, the closest thing that
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: I can compare it to was a constant feeling of homesickness,
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: just this unwavering ache in the pit of my stomach
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: that would only go away when I could be seen
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: and affirmed and live as myself. And while I thought
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: for so long that if I grew up, it would
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: go away, it only grew with time. I thought if I,
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: you know, my interest in politics was rooted in that
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: crisis of hope and to some degree, my path toward
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: politics was rooted in this notion that like, if I
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: can just, if I can live a fulfilling life professionally,
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: if I can make my life in the closet, so
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: worth living for other people that it, then it will
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: make it worthwhile to stay in the closet. And at
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: a certain point I had to go through different stages
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: of grief.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: And it was only when I accepted the loss of
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: any kind of future that I was able to then
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: accept myself. But I don't think my constituents benefit from
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: me going out there and regurgitating the stuff that I've
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: done for the last 10 years. But what I do
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: think is beneficial to both my constituents and the trans
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: community is for me to be seen as a full
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: human being. People might not be able to understand it.
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: I might not be spending my time talking about that homesickness.
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: But if people can see trans people beyond the caricature
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: of unfair caricature of a self-obsessed, inherently political being, I
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: think that benefits the community. And I think it helps
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: to at least implicitly fill that knowledge gap.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: How do you, and you must have thought about this
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: quite a bit before you took office, but like, how
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: do you handle that burden, right? Which is you are
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: the first person. And you're the first at a time
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: where your identity is a very intense political issue. You,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: like you said, believe that one really effective way to
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: bring more people on board is to show that here's
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: a trans person just living their life and doing their job.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, you can't completely ignore it
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: and you don't want to. How do you think about
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: balancing that on a day-to-day basis, when to engage, when
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: not to engage, when to tell stories, when not to?
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: When I announced in June of 2023, I knew that
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: trans issues were going to be at the center of politics,
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: but I did not anticipate that we would see a $ 200,
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: $ 300 million sustained campaign, that you'd have a Republican trifecta,
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: that they actually feel like they built on the backs
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: of attacking trans people. Like I said at the start,
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: I sort of entered within a perfect storm on these issues.
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: And I'll start by saying I'm not always going to
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: get it right. There are going to be times where
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: I don't respond that I should respond and times when
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: I respond when I shouldn't respond. The way I have
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: thought about it is that broadly speaking, if I am
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: the topic then it is my job to make the
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: people who are trying to make me the topic seem small.
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: If my constituents who are trans are the topic, then
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: I will fight back. Clearly, some of my colleagues are
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: treating me the way they are treating me for a
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: couple of reasons. One, it's because they want attention.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: show to get attention in a body of 435 people.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: And the way to do that is to pick a
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: fight with someone and throw wine in their face. They
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: want to clout chase off of me. And I'm just like,
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: part of my power is not giving them as much opportunity.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Because I got to tell you, the media coverage when
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: I respond versus when I don't respond is night and day.
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: So like, I'm giving them what they want when I
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: respond in a way that might feel viscerally comforting to
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: me and the community, but I'm giving them precisely what
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: they want. And my power is not giving them that.
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: That is how I take care of myself. It is
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: how I think I slowly remove some of the incentives
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: for coming after me. And again, I think it allows
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: me to reinforce that they're the ones that are obsessed
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: with trans people. We're just trying to live our lives.
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: And I do think that we have to reorient the
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: narrative around trans people to sort of a libertarian perspective
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: of we're just trying to live our lives. Why are
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: you consistently coming after us when we're just trying to
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: live our lives? When we're doctors and teachers and law
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: enforcement and soldiers and we're just trying to live the
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: best life we can to live our lives in a
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: way that's authentic to ourselves and be contributing productive members
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: of society and you keep coming after us. And I
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: think that I can kind of model that in that
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: way while not giving up the fact that my trans
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: constituents need a defender. Now, I also can't be the
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: only defender of trans people. And my colleagues have been amazing. Like,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: my colleagues, both privately and publicly, have been amazing. And
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: I think some people need to recognize that when I,
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: just to be frank, when I talk for an hour,
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: I mean, in this interview, I'm obviously, like, we're talking,
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: I'm saying the word trans a lot more. But, like,
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: if I was out there giving a speech for an
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: hour and I spend 59 minutes talking about the economy
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: and spend one minute talking about trans people, people will go,
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: there she goes again, only talking about trans issues. And
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: that's just, that is the reality, right? That is the
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: double standard, and that is the unique double standard that
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: I face as a trans person. And so part of
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: my challenge is figuring out how to stay true, how
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: to speak out for trans people on trans rights in
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: ways that are true to my values and true to
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: my principles, and also don't give the right wing this
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: capacity to consistently reframe me as someone who is focused
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: on one set of issues at the expense of all issues.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: And again, I'm not always going to get it right.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: I have to give myself some grace on this. I
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: would hope some folks would give me that grace too,
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: because I have tried to look for examples of people
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: who have had similar experiences in Congress. And I have
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: yet to find an example of someone coming into Congress
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: as a first when the identity that makes them a
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: first is at the center of political discourse and the
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: district that they represent isn't significantly or predominantly made up
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: of that identity. Right.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: We still haven't figured out how to make a district
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: of trans people. And once we do, then we'll be, boy,
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: things will be great. Well, you know, you ask this
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: rhetorically because I think, and I think it's right to ask,
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: why are they so focused on it? But I think
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: it's worth thinking about why they're so focused on it.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: And you made this point that people can understand love, right?
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: But they have trouble understanding what it's like to be trans.
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: I do think one of the reasons they're so focused
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: on it is because transness does call into question some
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: assumptions about gender roles that make them very uncomfortable. And
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: You know, you talked about how AOC would have, if
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: it was someone else, they might have been criticized for
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: making it about cisgender women. But I think that calls
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: out the issue here, right? Because there is a connection
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: between their discomfort with trans people and their desire to
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: protect kind of traditional gender norms. I noticed when, you know,
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: and you've said you regretted saying this, but when you
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: were misgendered in that committee hearing.
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: And and then you said, Madam Chair, right? That gets
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: obliterated because the two men start arguing as if you
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: weren't there. And I've just never seen you treated more
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: like a woman in your whole life. And I just
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: wonder if you could just, if you've thought about that.
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: God bless trans icon Bill Keating.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: Right, for sure. For sure did a good job, for sure.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: But I wonder if you feel that. I wonder if
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: you feel that from your Republican colleagues, this connection between
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: their discomfort with trans identity and their discomfort with any
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: challenge to gender norms generally?
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: I don't think that's limited to Republicans in Congress. I mean,
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: I think that the folks who are really leading from
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: the far right wing, from the manosphere, this anti-trans attack
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: are also the same folks who are leading a larger
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: effort to roll back progress on gender equality writ large
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: 50 to 60 years in the past. There is no
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: question that these are all linked. Transphobia, anti-trans sentiment is
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: inherently rooted in misogyny and sexism because it's rooted in
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: the notion that one perception at birth, the sex you
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: are assigned should dictate who you are, how you act,
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: what you do. And it is all about control. We
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: are already seeing the very predictable consequences of this particularly
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: inflamed moment in trans rights. We saw in an example
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: just a couple of days ago where a cisgender woman
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: was fired from her job because a customer thought she
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: was trans. She used the bathroom, the customer complained, and
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: the employer, instead of responding the way they should have responded,
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: they fired the cisgender woman because the customer was uncomfortable.
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: We saw it in the Capitol a couple of months
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: ago when Lauren Boebert accosted a member of the Democratic
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: caucus in the women's restroom telling her that she didn't
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: belong there. She went and got Nancy Mace. They ran
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: into the restroom. And then apparently a couple seconds later,
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: she pushly walked out because they thought this woman was me.
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: I mean, like, there is one trans person in Congress.
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: They cannot even police the one bathroom off the floor
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: with the one trans person in Congress correctly.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: I also love that story that, like, she has to
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: run and get Nancy Mace. Like, a bad signal goes out.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Sherlock Holmes and Watson with their magnifying glass.
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: I'm so sad I missed this. Like, it sounded pretty
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: hilarious from....
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: But it's also.
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: Like you laugh because you don't want to cry. I mean,
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: it's just it is it is entirely predictable. And this
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: is a deeply unserious effort that has serious consequences for
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: trans people, but for people who aren't trans as well.
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: You know, you're not woman enough. You don't look woman enough.
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: You don't act woman enough. And you're told that you
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: don't belong. Whether it's in the women's room, whether it's
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: in a job or whether it's in public life. Apparently,
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: if you have shorter length hair and glasses, you're told
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: you don't belong in the women's restroom under their regime.
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, it has consequences for people and it is
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: all connected because it is about control of bodies. It
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: is about control of gender. And it is about rolling
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: back the clock 70 years so some folks can feel
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: better about their place in our society and maybe feel
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: less competition.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is brought to you by Fast Growing Trees.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Did you know Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: nursery in the U.S. with thousands of different plants and
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: over 2 million happy customers? They have all the plants
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: your yard needs, like fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: and so much more. Whatever plants you're interested in, Fast
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: Growing Trees has you covered. Find the perfect fit for
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: your climate and space. Fast Growing Trees makes it easy
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: to get your dream yard. Order online and get your
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: plants delivered directly to your door in just a few
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: days without ever leaving your home. Their Alive and Thrive
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: guarantee ensures your plants arrive healthy and happy. Plus, get
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: support from trained plant experts on call to help you
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: plan your landscape, choose the right plants, and learn how
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: to care for them. I love the plant experts because
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: I need a plant expert, you know? I can't just
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: go out there and buy some shrubs and know what
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: I'm doing. We use fast-growing trees and we got a
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: plant expert to help us figure out some new shrubs
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: for the backyard.
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: It's wonderful.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: We love it. Love that.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Their 14-point quality checklist ensures you're getting the best quality
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: plants possible. Each plant is cared for individually based on
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: their needs, from watering routines to the amount of sunlight,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: giving your plants the care they deserve from the time
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: they start growing to when they ship to your home.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: This spring, they have the best deals for your yard,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: up to half off on select plants and other deals,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: and listeners to our show get 15% off their first
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: purchase when using the code CROOKED at checkout. That's an
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: additional 15% off at FastGrowingTrees.com using the code CROOKED at checkout. FastGrowingTrees.com,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: code CROOKED. Now's the perfect time to plant. Use Crooked
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Terms and conditions may apply. When Mike Johnson announced the
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: Nancy Mason-inspired bathroom policy, you responded, I thought, with such
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: grace and poise, and it's everything you've been talking about today.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: I was taken aback by sort of the number of
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: trans activists who criticized you because they wanted you to
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: do more to protest the policy. You have probably heard
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: all these criticisms before, you know, if you want to
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: create a big tent, you know, make, I think you
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: call them imperfect allies, right? Because trying to build a coalition,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: you know, the response is sometimes, well, the other side
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't believe that trans people have a right to exist.
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: And, any kind of concession or any kind of embrace
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: of anyone who believes that is just fueling that.
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: First off, I'm not talking about electing anti-trans people to
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: public office. I'm not talking about nominating someone who's throwing
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: trans people under the bus. I'm talking about a tent
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: of voters. who are still on a journey. And again,
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying any of this is fair. I'm not
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: saying it always feels good. But like I said before,
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: we clearly... We're not in this spot because we weren't
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: correcting people and shaming people and excommunicating people enough. I
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: think what happens, what human nature is, so if you're
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: 90% with someone, but we excommunicate you because of 10%,
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: the right's very good about saying, well, welcome on in, right?
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: Welcome on in. You're being oppressed by the left. You're
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: being silenced by the left. You're being punished by the
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: left because of your, quote, common sense. Welcome into our club.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: We'll look past the 90%. And then you go into
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: that club. And then human nature is you start to
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: then adopt those policies and those beliefs too. And instead
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: of being against us on 10% and with us on 90%,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: then you flip to being against us on 90%, maybe
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: with us on 10%. That is human nature. And we
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: can continue to shed allies all the way until we
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: have an exclusive morally pure club at the gulag we've
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: been sent to.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: And it won't even need to be that big. Right.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: It'll have a cap on 29% basically. I mean, how
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: are we going to defend anyone, including trans people, if
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: we don't include a portion of the people in the
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: 70% who... oppose trans participation in sports consistent with our
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: gender identities. The math just doesn't add up. And I'm
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: not saying we should nominate those people. I'm not saying
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: we should change our votes on blanket bans that are
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: both invasive and treat trans experience like it's one size
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: fits all and every trans person is exactly the same.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: But when we're talking about an electorate, we have to
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 4: be willing to have people in our coalition who are
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: not all the way there, not only to win, but
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: if we want to be in conversation with people to
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: ultimately get them to our side on all of the issues.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: Democracy only works if you're willing to have conversations across
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: disagreement and if you are willing to join forces with
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: people who might agree with you on most things, but
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: maybe disagree with you on some things.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: And again, that's Back to, that's one of our goals
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: as a party. And that's one of our political beliefs
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: is pluralism.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: It absolutely is. And I think we are so, it
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: cannot be a binary choice between either you are with
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: us on everything or you are a Nazi.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: It's a, part of it too, it's, I think maybe
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: what has maybe inoculated millennials is that we've seen that
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: kind of politics work. And it's hard, right? Because I
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: think there's a lot of young people who feel like
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: they haven't seen that kind of politics work in a while.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: And so it's like, this is why I think millennials
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: are the greatest generation.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: We are. It's the theme of this podcast.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: I'll say it before I've said it again. Gen X,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: there was lead in the gasoline. That fucked them up.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: The baby boomers didn't build a road in 50 fucking years.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: Gen Z's, they're flirting with the alt-right. Millennials.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: We have been the most consistently oppositional to Trump in polling.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: And look, let me.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Just say this.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: I get why people would be skeptical of this theory
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: of change.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: I understand. It hasn't delivered enough change and it certainly
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: hasn't delivered enough change fast enough. I get it. But
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: we've been trying something different for a couple of years
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: now and it hasn't worked.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: And I might be wrong, right? This theory of change
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: might not work, but I do believe that if you
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: look through our history, you do see that it is
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: the theory of change that most consistently works, right? I mean,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 4: the civil rights movement, and I'm not talking about trans rights, right?
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: I'm talking about sort of this broader moment in our politics.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: The civil rights movement was incredibly strategic.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Disciplined.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: Incredibly disciplined. They picked their fights. They picked their battles.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: They didn't take every battle. For instance, you didn't see,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: despite the fact that bathrooms were segregated, you didn't see
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: the civil rights movement choose to fight the fight in bathrooms.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: There's a reason for that. People are really uncomfortable in.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: Bathrooms, right?
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: They chose the ground that they were most likely to
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: be able to win over public opinion quickly on or
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: even have public opinion already on its side on. I
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: think we have forgotten so many of the lessons of history.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, civil rights movement, incredibly pragmatic. Which civil rights
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: act brought all equality all at once. Was it the
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: Civil Rights Act of 1957, the Civil Rights Act of 1959,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Civil Rights Act
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: of 1965, which was the Voting Rights Act, the Civil
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: Rights Act of 1968? Which Civil Rights Act brought everything? They,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: piece by piece, moved toward legal equality, but they didn't
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: get it all in one fell swoop. And that is
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: sad and tragic and unfair, and time is the one
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: resource we don't have, we can't afford to waste. But
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: It is the theory of change in our system that
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: has most consistently worked. And I think it's worth a
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: try again.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: Last question.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: A lot of people are scared to speak out, challenge
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: the government right now, including elected officials. Lisa Murkowski, senior Republican,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: was just saying that we're all afraid. You've had to
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: summon quite a bit of courage in your life and
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: your career. in the realm of politics as well. Do
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: you have advice for people in this moment who might
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: be horrified by what they're seeing, but a little scared?
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's fear both around repercussions and
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: just fear that it doesn't matter. And one, I think
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: that there is strength in numbers. My dad likes to say,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: This is a classic Joe Bidenism quoting my dad, but
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: he does genuinely say this. I'm not just making up
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: a quote for my dad and saying it's my father.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: Your dad said, hey, there are two guys kissing in 1952.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: Wilmington, Delaware, classic San Francisco mecca of the 1950s. My
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: dad likes to say that if everyone has just a
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: little bit of courage, then no one has to be
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: a hero. And it might, feel scary and be scary.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: But the more everyday voters, everyday citizens that we have
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: speaking out, the more elected officials, the more cultural leaders,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: the more business leaders will have a little bit more
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: courage then to speak out. I think we are seeing
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: so many people in positions of power afraid to speak
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: out because they are afraid that they will be speaking
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: out alone. And we can't convince every single person in
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: positions of power or authority or influence to summon that
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: courage to be a hero. But I think if everyone
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: just demonstrates enough courage. And look, we can catastrophize. But
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: if folks are speaking out, if folks are marching and
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 4: protesting right now for the most part, you're safe. You
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: can do it. And if you do it and your
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: neighbor does it and your neighbor's neighbor does it, it's
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: going to give a backbone and a sense of momentum
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: to other people who just need that extra little push,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: who maybe are putting even more on the line to
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: speak out and to fight back. But I think I
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: want to go back to what I said at the start,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: because I think this moment feels so different than the
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: Obama moment, when it felt like If we simply worked
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: for it, change was inevitable, right? Yes, it doesn't come
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: without effort, but if we put that effort in, it'll happen,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: and it doesn't feel that way. And I think we
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: are victims of sort of the hindsight of history in
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: this moment because we remember that moment. A lot of
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: people over the age of 20-something remember that moment. Remember
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: really the post-1960s world where it did feel like we
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 4: were on that cresting wave of cultural momentum. And we've
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 4: never experienced a moment like this where we can't see
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: the light at the end of the tunnel, where we
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 4: don't know if we vote and volunteer and speak out
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: that change will come. But you think about all of
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: the reasons for hopelessness. for an enslaved person in the
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: 1850s who had absolutely no reason to believe that an
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 4: Emancipation Proclamation was on the horizon. You think about the
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: hopelessness of an unemployed worker during the early days of
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: the Great Depression who had never heard of a New Deal.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: You think about the hopelessness of gay folks and trans
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: folks in the 1950s who never knew of an America
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: where they could live openly and authentically as themselves without
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: violating the law. They had every reason to give up.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: They could not see the light at the end of
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: the tunnel. And I have to believe that if previous
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: generations could do it, then so too can we.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: Let's hope.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: Let's hope.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: Let's hope.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: Hey, do you want to hear my solution to the
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: whole bathroom thing?
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: Because my partner has gone from using women's rooms to
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: men's rooms and they find them disgusting. And it's like, well,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: you wanted this. It's like you went through a lot
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: of work to come use this bathroom. So I'm sorry.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: It's not up to your standards. I just think we
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: need two kinds of bathrooms, all right? Clean and disgusting.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: And then everybody gets to decide what kind of person
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: they are that day. Because I'm telling you, there's a
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: lot of gay guys that have no business being in
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: a normal men's room.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: It's a great, great theory. And I love that you're
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: engaged to a trans person so you can make trans
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: jokes now.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: That's one of the perks. Believe me. He's pretty excited
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: about that part. Believe me.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 4: Congratulations.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Sarah McBride.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: We're so lucky to have you in Democratic politics and
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: politics and public service.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 4: Thank you. I'm lucky to be there. Thanks for having me.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: Quick note before we go. Be sure to check out
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: this week's Offline. With me and Max, Max back from vacation.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: We dug into Mark Zuckerberg taking the stand on the
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: antitrust suit against Meta.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: I talked to Dr.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: Lior Zmigrod about her book, The Ideological Brain, which explores
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: the neuroscience behind why some people are more susceptible to
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies. And special AI correspondent John
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Lovett joined us.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, I was there.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: And told us what ChatGPT thinks about All of us.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: ChatGPT really gave us the business. And how well we
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: do at podcasts. Really gave us a what for that
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: AI did.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: ChatGPT has us dead to rights.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: Listen to Offline Now wherever you get your podcasts or
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: on YouTube. If you want to listen to Pod Save
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: America ad-free or get access to our subscriber Discord and
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the Pod community
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: at cricket.com slash friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: hit that next button, you can help boost this episode
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: by leaving us a review and by sharing it with
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: friends and family. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: Our producers are David Toledo, Saul Rubin, and Emma Illick-Frank.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Reid Cherland is our
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: executive editor, and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Segland
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hethcote, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pallaviv,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: Kenny Moffitt, and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.