Latest / Your Estate Matters / Episode 59 - Protecting Vulnerable Adults from Financial Abuse with Kathleen Cunningham

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Episode 59 - Protecting Vulnerable Adults from Financial Abuse with Kathleen Cunningham · Your Estate Matters

• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, and welcome to your State Matters, presented by Heritage Trust.
• 0:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your State Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything of states, including building and preserving your legacy.
• 0:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: If it's the state-related, we'll be talking about it.
• 0:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets, and their legacies tomorrow.
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Over her career, Kathleen Cunningham served as the executive director of the BC Law Institute and the Canadian Center for Elder Law from 2015 to 2020.
• 0:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: She led the delivery of education, legal support and risk management at a major Canadian trust company and assisted the public garden and trustee of BC with the implementation of personal planning and guardianship legislation as well as all projects addressing financial abuse or vulnerable adults.
• 0:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Kathleen was a member of
• 1:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: and undo influence recognition and prevention a guide for legal practitioners.
• 1:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: She assisted the Society for Trust in a State Practitioners Canada with a planning delivery and final report of its symposium on vulnerable clients.
• 1:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And she's the author of the Step Canada's client service resource a guide to assisting persons in vulnerable circumstances.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Kathleen served on the Step Worldwide Council and in December 2023 she completed a six-year term on the steering committee for the Step Worldwide Mental Capacity Special Interest Group.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Kathleen, you've had an incredibly interesting and very career and you've really distinguished yourself as sort of a thought leader in this space, particularly around vulnerable adults and things like that.
• 1:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your trajectory and how you got to where you are today?
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess I would start with it's been anything but traditional.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I've had a very lucky career.
• 2:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I started out leaving high school wanting to go into accounting and I got into accounting at UBC and need to do something else.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're a long story short.
• 2:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I ended up doing a combined commerce law degree at UBC.
• 2:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: UBC offered those at the time.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then I never really wanted to practice law either.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So then I had to look around and see what I wanted to do.
• 2:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody said, well, have you ever thought about a trust company?
• 2:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, no, then I interviewed it all the different trust companies.
• 2:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I interviewed last at the company that I wanted to work for.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got a phone call saying, or interested new, but every lawyer that we've ever hired, went back to practice.
• 2:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was so shocked that they agreed to interview me.
• 2:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I never looked back.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had really interesting files.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I dealt with the states.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed my clients.
• 2:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was back in the day when the states didn't seem to be as contentious as they are today.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I looked after trusts and then I had some commentations and dealing with people who were incapable and we looked after their financial affairs.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's sort of how I got there.
• 3:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: was there then I went into hit office and I did policy and training and answering questions so I got to hear what the problems were and the problems were always interesting by the time they reached my office so I got to deal with the best lawyers in the country and I said it was just I never looked back and I was a lot to stay in Vancouver.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have to move to Toronto.
• 3:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I was really unique in that sense and then when I left that I went to Australia, I did a
• 3:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: person responsible for looking after a community.
• 3:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was a community outreach person for vulnerable adults.
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was going on leave to work on a special project.
• 3:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I went in part time to fill in for her for
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: two years and ended up there for five.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I was talking about the public garden and trustee.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, so tell our listeners what that is.
• 4:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because not a public garden and trustee is a government body.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a person called the public garden and trustee.
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that office looks after a state when there is no executor or nobody to look after the state.
• 4:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: They look after children, children
• 4:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they have services for adults.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: They will act as a comedy, the guardian, when a person is incapable, and there's nobody else who willing to do that.
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they also have a good and well-serviceist adult, and they investigate reports of the abuse neglect.
• 4:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in my time there, I worked mostly with services to adults and help them with their relationships with getting information from financial institutions and getting better dialogue going.
• 4:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wrote a lot of materials for them helped out with his in those years, 2010, 2015, a lot of legislation from the adult guardianship reforms was finally coming in before.
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: helped out with all of that.
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then now you're quite a noted researcher and writer tell us about that.
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was at the BC Law Institute for five years and I went there primarily because of the community center for older law.
• 5:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So tell our listeners what those organizations are.
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the BC Law Institute is BC's law reform agency and they proposed there are non-partisan
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: NBC and many of them have been adopted over the years, Canadian Center for Elder Law was established in the early 2000s and that was their focus was on the laws that affects older adults.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: One aspect of of elder law that whole field was abuse and neglect.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So after my time with
• 5:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: of a guardian and trustee, and then the VC launched to the incentive for elder law.
• 5:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was my personal interest and we had some projects that I was executive director, but my staff looked after some projects dealing with mobile adults.
• 6:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I've been very close to it.
• 6:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've done research comparing jurisdictions and the legislation.
• 6:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess one of the big things that happened before the BC Law Institute in the Minnesota Fairlder Law is we had to be see a project review out of guardianship in the 1990s.
• 6:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And out of that team the representation agreement had.
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But prior to that we had a part of attorney act to deal with financial affairs, but then
• 6:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, look, I was interested in something to make healthcare decisions, personal decisions, but this whole project, looking at our guardianship, was looking at how we work with people who have vulnerabilities, people who are cognitive issues, can't necessarily make decisions on their own, but maybe can make some decisions.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And during that time, I learned a lot about decision making.
• 6:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: and the need to respect someone's right to try to make decisions to help them make decisions.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when the legislation first came out, I actually told my boss.
• 6:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did this for Amy.
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had a client who fit right into the kind of situation you were talking about.
• 7:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody who could make decisions but couldn't control what was happening.
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I learned that there and then I
• 7:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: through that project, I met Alex Mansky, the founder of Plan and Lifetime Head, seen that work, which is very much dedicated to helping support people to make the decisions.
• 7:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I was interested in it.
• 7:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't work personally in it, but I worked with people, and did a lot of the research you're writing from.
• 7:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So tell me about the particular focus on undue influence and elder abuse.
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: How did you get a particular focus on that area?
• 7:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Prior to being executive director at the BC Law Institute, I was on the project to look at undue influence.
• 7:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is it?
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when BC brought in its new succession legislation, replacing the wills at, they had a section on undue influence.
• 7:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it changed the presumption, basically said that if a gift in a will or a will is made, and that will make her was subject to undue influence,
• 8:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: was the benefit of whatever was done, benefited somebody who was in a position to control or what the adult did, or the adult was dependent on them.
• 8:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: They would have to prove that whatever benefit they received was not a result of undoing influence.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we did a whole project on what is in undoing influence, how do you recognize it, how do you deal with it?
• 8:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because undoing influence, we're all can be subject to undoing influence.
• 8:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: you would not make, if you were in your own free will, they're pressuring you to do it, they're threatening whatever.
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we did that project then, more recently, we updated it and one of my big beefs was, we only dealt with wills, but undoing fluids happens when we're living.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: People will become, they're appointed, they have a parent, a point in the attorney and an injury in part of attorney, and then they use that authority to steal the influence of change title to homes.
• 9:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so that updated guide on dealing with under influence deals with how under influence happens, what to watch for, and just looks at a testamentary, you know, in a will but also in the interbidal, so living things that happen.
• 9:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about that.
• 9:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what is financial abuse of an adult and how's that different from neglect or self-neglect?
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you'll forgive me, I'll read the definition BC has very thorough definitions that I'm going to read it completely, but abuse, and this is a, we'll come to it later, but everyone has their own definition.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in BC, the definition is it's the deliberate mistreatment of an adult that causes the adult, physical, mental, or emotional harm.
• 9:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: or damage or loss in respect of the adult's financial affairs.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it also includes intimidation, humiliation, fiscal assault, sexual assault, overmedication with holding needed medications, censoring now, invasion or denial, privacy or denial of access to visitors.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: When one form of abuse is happening, often other forms of abuse are happening.
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some are more visible than others.
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Neglect is sort of the opposite.
• 10:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's any failure to provide the necessary care assistance guidance or attention to an adult that causes or is reasonably likely to cause within short period of time.
• 10:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Serious, physical, mental, or emotional harm or substantial damage or loss and respectful financial affairs.
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: One is that action of doing something or preventing something from happening, the other is just failing to do it and the person can't get the help they need on their own.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Self-neglect is included.
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Self-neglect is included in our legislation.
• 10:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not included in all legislation because it's a very different thing.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's some jurisdictions treated as the mental health tissue because it's difficult to help someone who is refusing help.
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And until we end up in the hospital with some serious incidents, it's often difficult to even try to reach out to them.
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have self neglect in our legislation and BC, but not all jurisdictions do, and it is a very different thing to respond to.
• 11:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So are we talking like the TN toast, syndrome that we often hear about or does it have to be more significant?
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you say time, toast, sorry, I haven't heard that.
• 11:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, an adult who is,
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: not giving themselves adequate nutrition.
• 11:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 11:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So well, it's something that would cause them physical or mental harm or lost financial affairs.
• 11:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that will happen is that someone is not paying their taxes.
• 11:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so the public guardian and trustee will get a report that the taxes haven't been paid and at some point that property is going to go up for sale.
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that's an example of a financial self-neglect.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: they have the authority and they're not paying.
• 12:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if it's the owner who has some mental health issues and they're just not paying their bills, that can be a clue and that's kind of thing that leads to financial loss, serious financial loss.
• 12:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually incredible how many individuals don't like, so it heritage trust we end up being appointed administrator of a states or
• 12:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: For listeners, if someone loses capacity and they don't have poverty in place at court appointed guardian and be see they call it a commodity pursuant to the patient's property act can be appointed.
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: we get appointed where people have paid personal taxes in like 10, 15 years, like it's remarkable, but like how long things go and, and I guess the lack of checks and balances.
• 12:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that leads me to like, let's talk about how prevalent this is,
• 13:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: financial abuse of an adult.
• 13:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I understand sadly it's often individuals closest to the adult and is that true?
• 13:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what percentage of older people are subject to this kind of abuse?
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nick, measuring abuse in neglect is a difficult thing because as I mentioned, everyone has a different definition.
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So to get a consistent devastation and collecting information is challenging, there's different research out there, but I think it's fair to say probably at least 10% of the older population or other adults in vulnerable situations, younger people with other brain injuries and other situations, there is at least 10% of the population and it depends on what kind of abuse you're talking about.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Financial abuse is a common one.
• 13:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's becoming more and more common, unfortunately.
• 13:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as you say, it happens the statistics show that a majority of the abuse happens by close family members.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where it gets difficult because you think there's a good professional advisor.
• 14:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a good relationship going on.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know what's going on behind the scenes.
• 14:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 14:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's scams out there.
• 14:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking about the scams, but we all hear about the scams, and those are, that's another issue.
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we're talking in this situation about people who are deliberately doing something and it tends to be people closer to the out, sometimes it's together.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: One is the predatory marriage, the person who marries an older person,
• 14:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: and it takes their assets.
• 14:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the person doesn't have full capacity, they have capacity to get married, and they use that position of trust in that relationship because the adult was lonely, they felt that they were in a relationship or someone cared for them, and that is another
• 14:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've fit this.
• 14:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I remember there was one gentleman who's wife passed away and he went to the community center where he regularly had coffee with other older gentleman and there was an ad for a cleaning person.
• 15:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he answered the ad and next thing, you know, he had secretly married that cleaning person without the knowledge of his family, I mean, the stories are very common.
• 15:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: But let's talk about what are the situations, like, what are the scenarios you see where people are really vulnerable?
• 15:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about the situations and what are some of the red flags that
• 15:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not just professionals, but people in the community can look out for if there may be potential abuse or neglect.
• 15:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll get to that, but one other thing I was, I did want to point out about the statistics.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: The other issue is just under-reporting because these situations happen with family members.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: The adult, if they're aware enough of it, they don't want to say anything.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: They blame themselves.
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: They need that person to help look after them.
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they don't want to report it.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a whole
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole bunch of that going on as well, which makes it hard to know what the real true stats are.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of the risk factors, I think there's different situations that people can be in.
• 16:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in the guide that's step prepared, I think you've heard.
• 16:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: shared with the audience there are a lot of factors but the research shows that some of the environmental risk factors are lack of social support shared living arrangements and characteristics of the perpetrator and that's mental health issues, drug or alcohol, addiction, dependency on the old or adult or the stress or burden associated with being a caregiver.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes the caregivers are just burned out.
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So those are some of the risk factors.
• 16:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Things that can put a person at risk.
• 16:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're not necessarily.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't mean the person is at risk, but it's a situation.
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's others that living alone, cultural norms,
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: but it's unclear how strongly related they are, but there are things to be alert to.
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: When a person is older, you've often see functional in capacity, in ability to make decisions or cognitive impairment,
• 17:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: mental health issues or just living in isolation and then other things gender, age, financial dependency, education, those are other risk factors, but they're not as well supported by the research.
• 17:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the things we talk about recognizing abuse and neglect is we need to understand the risk factors and we need to understand the red flags, but we have to be careful to not jump
• 17:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: We all have our own biases, we all see things that are through our own eyes.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It may not be the way the client be atleast sees the situation.
• 17:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: They may have good reasons for what's going on.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the first step is to recognize these risk factors in the red flags.
• 18:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Probably want to talk about it as well.
• 18:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, a tell us about the red flags.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: What should families and professionals look for?
• 18:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's groups of signs things to watch out for.
• 18:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: The physical ones would be, you just observe physical, you see it happening, some sort of act of violence
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: confining someone to a room, restraining them to a bed or a chair, other things is you observe frequent or unexplained injuries, changes in their nutrition or their hydration, changes in their appearance or their grooming.
• 18:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't use their mobility aids or glasses or hearing aids.
• 18:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Things that you observe about that person, then there's communication.
• 18:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: The adult actually tells you they're being abused.
• 18:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: another person speaks or has started to speak on behalf of the adult.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: That can be a real tricky thing sometimes and it happens a lot just in terms of even just ages and though.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's somebody shows up with their parents.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: A child shows up with their mother and the child starts doing all what talking.
• 19:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that child talking because mothers ask them to or because they're trying to control the message.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Other things are restricting access to communication with others.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh,
• 19:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, mom's not available, mom's not here, mom's sleeping, dad's sleeping, can't come to the door right now.
• 19:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can't come up for a walk.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just keeping them away from other people, but they might want to actually see if the professional or a service provider is having trouble getting access to somebody.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why?
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: The adult can be just exhibiting unusual anxiety when meeting or speaking, can see it or hear it through something they're uncomfortable with.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or they have unusual difficulty
• 19:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why is that?
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have the information.
• 19:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know where to find it.
• 19:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then there's behavior.
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's behavioral changes, but the client has become passive for compliant.
• 19:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: They appear withdrawn.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're unusually aggressive.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're confused, they've stopped making their own decisions, and then there's relationships.
• 20:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Things like, there's less or no contact, there's isolation from family or friends, and then there's new or unknown caregivers.
• 20:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those predatory people who have come into the person's life too, help out.
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's behavioral signs.
• 20:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the financial legal obligations that they're not looking after.
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I can go through it's a big, long list.
• 20:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that gives you a flavor of the things to watch out for the gay, no, it's you observe things, but then you need to do some fact checking before you jump to conclusions, talking to the adult about it can be tricky.
• 20:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are resources out there that help you learn how to probe and ask questions.
• 20:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: because if you don't, if you're not careful, when you do probe, if you say, like, I think your son is abusing you, they may shut down.
• 20:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you want to keep the door open, you want to keep the conversation open, ask open ended questions, but try to respect the adults, to make their own decisions and decide what to disclose.
• 21:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: you talked earlier about undue influence.
• 21:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, how is undue influence different from financial abuse?
• 21:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And my understanding is, it's not just persuasion.
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's more than that.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to talk about undue influences the person exerting the undue influences and posing their wishes on the
• 21:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to do it, but I don't know how to say no.
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why once there's cognitive impairment,
• 21:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: then a person's more vulnerable to that because it's easier to influence them to say something.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I used to hear stories in the banks where the adult would come in one day and make an account joint with one child and then next week they come in and make the account joint with another child.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just something's not right here.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: They keep changing things every week.
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So abuse, abuse is the deliberate intent to the extent that it's a proactive
• 22:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: actions, sometimes think people think they're doing what they're doing is right.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't realize what they're doing is wrong.
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: When the public garden and trusty investigates, sometimes it's like, okay, what you just did was wrong, you took money, give it back, and promise not to do it again, or we will have your part of a terrible vote.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It also, it's doing things, didn't knowing that it's, they're taking something.
• 22:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: that belongs to someone else, but the undo influence is making the adult enter a transaction, make a document, do something they didn't, they wouldn't do of their own volition.
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when, when does something become criminal?
• 22:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a criminal lawyer, but the criminal code does have, I guess it comes, criminals are a higher burden of proof.
• 22:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we don't have a criminal offense of elder abuse, because any adult can be abused.
• 22:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And children can be abused.
• 22:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: What we do have in the criminal code, though, is a number of crimes.
• 23:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you meet this threshold over the crime, you've got crimes against the person who need to provide the necessary of life.
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Criminal negligence, assault, sexual assault, intimidation.
• 23:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those were all in the definition of abuse, and at some point it becomes criminal.
• 23:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: adults may not want to report a family member because they don't.
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: want to bring the force of the law against them.
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other crimes are theft.
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's actually a theft by a person holding a power of attorney.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually in the criminal code and the fraud.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a number of provisions that can be used.
• 23:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the police officers across this country that are engaged in this.
• 23:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: They know them and they use them.
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the prosecutors will work with them.
• 23:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's nobody wants to take this to the level of criminal code.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if it's necessary, it is there for the really bad actors.
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So say you are another family member or a neighbor or maybe a professional and you recognize red flags of abuse or undue influence, whether in a practical basis what can you do?
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: In BC, we have the public guardian and trustee and the designated agencies.
• 24:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's provided for, well, the public guardian and trustee has authority under its legislation
• 24:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they can freeze the counts or put a caveat on a property, so it can't be sold, and then they investigate, try if the person is not capable, they will look for solutions finding someone who can make decisions for them in the last case scenario, they might become.
• 24:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: commenting, but they try to solve the problems and bring people in a person's life into their life.
• 24:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: These designated agencies, they can investigate their the health authorities and community living BC.
• 24:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: they can investigate all kinds of abuse and neglect and self-neglect.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them will say call us first, because the reality is, they can investigate financial abuse, but they're in the healthcare system.
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, investigating financial matters is not something that most of people can do to investigations named the their name is escaping me, the designated responder, but they work with a public garden trustee.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, the first thing the public garden trustee will do is find out if this thing client is on their radar.
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: if they come up against a financial situation, they'll be in touch with the PGT.
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's actually a flow chart in one of the materials from the public garden and trustee that it's like, what to do, if the client's life is in danger, call 911.
• 25:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a story one time where
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: someone was in the bank, husband was in the bank saying who's gonna shoot his wife and they call the public area in trustee.
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no.
• 25:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: It call the police first.
• 25:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then if the adult able to put them in touch with resources and there's a list of resources in that guide and on the public area in trustee's website and then if there's no resources of the clients not able or willing to,
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: do anything and you're still concerned then you call report to the public guardian and trustee or the designated agency and again that flow chart sort of gives you a list of what happens if you call the police what happens if you call the public guardian trustee what happens if you call it designated agency what to expect because people don't want to call the police they're afraid of what might happen if they call it police but the police especially here in Vancouver you'll be a dedicated cars and officers work with a social worker
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: they all work together in this bottom line.
• 26:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So those are the places.
• 26:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the community in BC, we have community response networks.
• 26:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's, I don't know, there's, I think over 80 communities around the province where a community response network is a, it's not a place to solve the problems.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't take on cases, but they do at least once a year meetings or events,
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a place for anybody interested in adult abuse neglect and self neglect.
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: to get together, find out who does what and just know what can be done in your community because in one smaller community might be better to call this place, call this, this is what will happen here.
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd remember going to my first event in the fireman came in and police came in and social workers and people from senior's groups and it's for anybody, any service provider at a home care nursing, you know.
• 27:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: find out what's in your place and reason the firemen are theirs because they get a call because someone's they know they have to go into a home and they find somebody.
• 27:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they everybody cares and they just not sure what they need to do.
• 27:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess the big message and all of that is it takes a community.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is no single place to phone.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know there's a lot of resources out there.
• 27:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll put a bunch of these resources in the show notes.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm on the email list for the community resource.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's great.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like if people want to learn more about this topic, like do you have recommended places they can go to learn more?
• 28:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you're interested in all of the legal in the...
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: past the issues and all that.
• 28:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: You'll have a look at the guide that we wrote.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It can be read in segments, but for something that's really accessible for the general public and for professionals, as the Canadian Center for Elder Law has the practical guide to elder abuse and neglect in Canada.
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: and so it's a great resource for just knowing it covers off the laws, it covers off privacy, it covers off the resources.
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's always the public garden and trustee websites in each province.
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: BC's has a lot of meritorials there.
• 28:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: The designated agency websites have information.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for people interested in representation agreements, NIDAS is a great resource for representation agreements and what they're all about and how to make them.
• 28:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll put all of this in the show notes or people to check out.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you feel things are moving along?
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like do you think there's more awareness and resources or is the system stressed and under resource like what's your experience?
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I would say there's more and more awareness
• 29:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Professionals are becoming more aware because their clients are getting older.
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're seeing things.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know what to do, which is why I step wrote this guide.
• 29:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So with awareness comes Spotting more situations.
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're seeing it.
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The people who do the investigations say they're getting more and more complex.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're not as easy as they used to be.
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's family dynamics, there's mental health issues.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's more difficult.
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: The resources are there, the training is there.
• 29:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they're stretched because, as I say, it's getting more complex.
• 29:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's where again, the community response networks become a place to find out what you do locally.
• 29:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: to put science cards around a person, how can you, and I think that knowledge is improving until we understand what we're looking at and see it for what it is, we don't know what we can do.
• 30:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there are lots of things that can be done, and it needs to come from the community as well.
• 30:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the first conferences I came to, I remember a place officer saying, it takes a village.
• 30:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you can call the public garden trustee.
• 30:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can call the police.
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can call the designated agencies, but we want to stop it and just prevent things from happening before it they happen.
• 30:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if there's someone listening that wants to do more, what's something they can do?
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's say the first thing is to be aware of the red flags and the risk factors and be conscious of your own bias.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So start with yourself, what do you know and and how do you see things.
• 30:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot that you can do, but probably the first thing is to look at some of these resources and pick the topic or the information that
• 30:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: seems like something you could do something about, maybe you know somebody who doesn't have anybody in their life.
• 30:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you find somebody to help them make decisions?
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or they don't know where to go to get, they want it.
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: They know they need to do something.
• 31:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what are the documents they can put in place?
• 31:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are the financial arrangements they can put in place to prevent things from happening?
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
• 31:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where can people find you, Kathleen, if they're interested in your research?
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't do much publicly anymore.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't practice, so I'm there, but I can't take, I don't take on clients, or so unfortunately, the resources that I put out are the place I can go.
• 31:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, certainly make those available.
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you Kathleen so much for sharing all your incredible wisdom and knowledge and experience with us.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're welcome, pleasure.
• 31:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 31:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for putting this topic out there.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual legal, financial, or tax advice.
• 31:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances.
• 32:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your State Matters.
• 32:05
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• 32:09
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• 32:15
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• 32:20
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• 32:33
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