Latest / Beheaded / "I Am No Traitor" | Margaret Pole

Transcript

"I Am No Traitor" | Margaret Pole · Beheaded

0:05
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: We are already on season one, episode seven.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, me too.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: And we have some more followers, some more fans, some more listeners.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: We do.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: We're pretty impressed with our progress so far.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: We already have 10 countries, uh, as well as what is it, 96 cities.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: 96 cities.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: We should probably introduce ourselves.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: Oh, good point.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm Megan Moore.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: And this is Beheaded.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: And this is Beheaded.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to jump straight into all of our new listeners because I get excited.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: No, we had some really good interactions.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Weirdly, today.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Like today was a big day for us because we had random people reach out, literally from all over the world.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Like friends of friends that had uh, you know, talked about our podcast before had kind of come in being like, wait, what's the name of your podcast again?
0:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you find it?
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Megan set up a Facebook today, which I didn't know that existed still.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: I am a foreigner to Facebook.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: We both are.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: I was like really good at Facebook in 2010.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: Call in a and it's like a whole new world to me.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: So I jumped back onto it and I created a Facebook page for Beheaded.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: So check it out.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: It's I don't know, beheaded.podcast or something like that.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you'll find it.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: You're smart.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, you're all educated people.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: We trust you.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, and I figured out how to like get a little excerpt of our last episode and made that into an Instagram post.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: So that was fancy.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: I was impressed with uh the tech settings.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: Those are some skills.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm learning here.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: I I learned gain and now I'm learning the gain on the volume.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: I can tell y'all.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I know gain.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: I keep looking at it weird every time she says gain.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: I know what gain is now, kind of.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Sort of what's gain's gain?
1:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm learning more about editing.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: Because we do all of our own editing.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: I know some podcasts are super duper fancy and they have producers and people who do it for me.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, it's funny when you listen to other podcasts, they're like produced by, songs by.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, maybe they should start saying that and just make fake news.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: As like a joke, pseudo names for but they all just mean Megan Moore, and they all start with Megan.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Like Megan Smith.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: Megan Smith, Megan Johnson.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: No, I yeah, literally, I've told Megan before, but she does all of our editing, most of our social media.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Not always that great.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm learning.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: I contribute some, but in general, this is like a 60-40 relationship, maybe even a 70-30 relationship.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't go that far, but I'm like a I'm more of a counselor.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: But you do always like put in really good feedback and you always listen to it first afterwards, and then you give good advice.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: So we are in this 50-50.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm excited around episode seven.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Episode seven already.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so shout outs to our um our new followers.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: We had a binge in Germany last night.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: We did.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, thank you to our listener who listened to all six episodes in a row last night because we we watch.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: We we are watching.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: We're not creepy at all.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: We just know exactly where all of you are.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: We know where everyone is.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: Not every swift stats for that good.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: They're not, they're actually pretty vague.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: They're pretty unreliable.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: They're unreliable.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: But um so before we get started today, um, I think we have one thing we wanted to add from our last episode, and this is actually something that um Megan's husband brought up when he was listening to the last episode.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: It's so funny to me because my husband isn't like the most historically savvy person, I would say.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: And we're listening to the last episode, and he literally pauses it and looks at me.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: And we were right in the part where we were talking about how we would presume that some, you know, we're we're back in Ramses the third um in his harem with all of his wives, and we would assume that they would go after some of the guards and try to flirt with them and be promiscuous with them.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we already know that these women got the guards and pantry boys and things on their side, so we assume, like, well, you do it in a flirtatious way.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: Being a little naughty.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: And my husband literally pauses it and looks at me, goes, Well, that's not possible.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what?
4:02
SPEAKER_01: He's like, Well, all the guards were eunuchs, and that's crazy because we did not think about that or read about that, but yeah.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Mind blown.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: So I double checked because I didn't trust him at first, double-checked it.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: And uh, yeah, it says that most of the guards in the Egyptian pharaoh's courts, they were castrated and made into eunuchs so that they couldn't impregnate all the wives.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: Which makes so much sense.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: It's also awful, like that you have to be all yeah, to in order to be a guard, like eh yeah, one quick thing.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: One quick procedure, just one thing to get past this final part of your interview to become a guard.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we gotta take your junk.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Final step.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So that probably obviously lowered their sex drive, and again, they couldn't, you know, get these women pregnant.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not a guy, so I don't know.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you would still have urges.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: Well, fun fact, and thought we would squeeze that in there before we move on.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: Share that.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And and to kick it off, as I mentioned, always assume we have wine.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: Tonight we are drinking the pinnacle of quality, it says on the bottle, Terrain Vineyards, California Red Blend 2016, which is um a vintage from last decade.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Last decade.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: We are in 2020.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: We're in 2020 now.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: It's quite an old wine.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's probably from the bottom shelf of the liquor store.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: I didn't I'm first of all, I'm five foot two, so I did not have to bend to reach to the top shelf.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Not because we can't afford it.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: We didn't have to bend that low to get it.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Let's just say that.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: So you'll kind of know based on based on tiny crouch, not a large one.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: But based on our quality of wine, you'll know how well we'll do it we'll do as a podcast.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Like maybe, maybe five episodes from now, we're like, okay, so tonight we have Don Perion.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh currently it's just the terrain vineyard.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: I stood up straight to get this bottle confidently.
5:53
SPEAKER_02: Went straight for that middle shelf.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't like, sir.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: There was one on the way bottom.
5:58
SPEAKER_02: Can I please get that?
5:59
SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so you'll know based on the quality of wine how well we're doing.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we had those accompanied with, they were called pastry pups.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: Pastry pups.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: Right?
6:09
SPEAKER_02: So it's basically best.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: It's a uh Trader Joe's thing.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
6:14
SPEAKER_02: I have a problem in my life because I live and I count it.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: I put a timer on my car.
6:18
SPEAKER_02: Oh boy.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: Two minutes and 17 seconds from a Trader Joe's driving.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: And do you know how dangerous that is in my life?
6:25
SPEAKER_02: So, pastry pups, shout out Trader Joe's.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: Not a sponsor, but I'm looking.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling a pattern in our episodes here.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Begging.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Not begging.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: We're not desperate, actually.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: We've been approached by uh two so far.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: You know?
6:40
SPEAKER_02: So we're drinking our wine.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: It's actually my husband's birthday and podcasting with Elizabeth.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
6:46
SPEAKER_01: Come sickness, come uh husband's birthday.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: She's here.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: Friday night, husband's birthday.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: We are always here, same time every time.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: My dude, he's also he's hard at work tonight.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: He he works in payroll, so once a month it's like he's a hard worker though.
7:02
SPEAKER_02: I know.
7:02
SPEAKER_02: But he's also not a big birthday guy.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: So I kept trying, every year I try and get out of there.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: What do you want for your birthday?
7:07
SPEAKER_02: What do you want for your birthday?
7:08
SPEAKER_02: I want to do something fun.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: And uh what did he ask for this year?
7:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, what's sitting on my on my table right now is.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: I walk into Megan's and uh there's a traffic cone with a bow on it and a card addressed to him.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: I was like, what's this?
7:21
SPEAKER_01: She's like, it's Jake's birthday.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh yeah, duh.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: He wants a traffic cone for his birthday.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: What you weird he wanted a traffic cone.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: There's a reason why I mean to get it's actually a very logical gift, but he's just a very practical person.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: And he has um a motorcycle, a Harley like that.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: Harley.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that right now it's it's winter in Arizona, so it's freezing temperature.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: It's so cold.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: And he has 50 degrees.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he has his like black cover over it, and it's sitting in one of the parking spots outside of my townhouse.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: But he's, you know, watching out the window and keeps seeing people like almost pull into the parking spot and realize, oh, there's a motorcycle in the back out.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: So he wanted a cone to put in front of his bike.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: That the HOA will have zero problem with.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: Zero problem.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm it's a small cone.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: It's only a 12 minutes.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not too ostentatious, it's a nice orange, like a foot high, maybe.
8:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, they're doing all this construction outside.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you saw that.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: I was so tempted to go and get one, but I'm an honest person.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: Wait, where'd you buy that cone?
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Where do you buy cones?
8:23
SPEAKER_02: Home Depot.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: Do you know how okay?
8:24
SPEAKER_02: My Home Depot stories again.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: First, I go in asking for a noose.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you have an orange traffic cone for me.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: And of course, my dog Penny's always with me at Home Depot.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Was it the same inconfident 16-year-old who was like, What's a traffic cone?
8:38
SPEAKER_02: No, not this time.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: I found the cone myself because I used my sensibility of if I were a traffic cone, where would I be?
8:45
SPEAKER_02: Smart.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, okay, safety.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: Where is safety?
8:48
SPEAKER_02: Ladders.
8:49
SPEAKER_02: There's safety with ladders.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: They do have traffic cones near their ladders so we can like block off your ladder area.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: If any of you are in the market, that's where to find it.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: That's where you find traffic cones at Home Depot.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Now we're also plugging Home Depot for free.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: We gotta stop with this.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: No more free ads.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Zero free ads.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, good.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm glad you're here on his birthday podcasting with me.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Talking about um talking about our next tutor story.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: We have a tutor story, tutor story, my favorite.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: She sings sometimes when I get really, really anxious for this.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, as we told you, we're gonna have tutor stories from time to time.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, we've heard you, we know, obviously, we're building up to very significant tutors.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Anne Boleyn's not gonna be for a while.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: We're putting some pieces in place first so you guys kind of get the background, the you know, larger history of what's happening during this time.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: And trust me, we will 100% get to all that.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: We gotta do Anne right.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we gotta do her good.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: I want everyone to know, like, trust me, we are well aware of Anne Boleyn, Mary Queen of Scots.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: She's the reason Megan started the case.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Catherine Howard.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: She is the reason I started it.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: She is my favorite person in history.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: So we just wanna do it right and do it at the right time.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: And we could have, I almost feel like jumping with Marie Antoinette on our first one was a risk.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: And actually, she's a good one.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: Thinking back at that, I was like, that was a lot to cover in the first one, and we were new.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: It was also our shortest episode, surprisingly.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so again, but I think that was a good introduction to get people like acquainted with our style and what we're going to do in the future.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: So maybe who knows?
10:27
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we'll have a revisit to maybe we'll do a you know what?
10:31
SPEAKER_01: We're going to Versailles and we'll do it from there.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: That's news to Megan.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: This is a new thing.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Yep, surprise, Megan.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: Bought your trip to Versailles.
10:40
SPEAKER_02: Today we do have um, I would say a heroine of the Tudor era, but we are gonna talk about the Countess of Salisbury, Margaret Poole.
10:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: We were both researching a lot today and talking about just the different things of her life, and we're super impressed with some of the boundaries she broke, some of the first that she did.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, we'll get obviously into all of it, but overall, I feel like this is gonna have a very good undertone of like and a good flow of girl power.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: I know our last episode, there was so much information, which is also really cool.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: And I I I mean that's a great thing that there's an overload, but um sometimes these I don't want to say a smaller one, like a smaller execution, but we it's more concise and I feel like a little bit more linear in the timeline here.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when you have things like mummies or you're talking about ancient dynasties, you tend to go back and forth between historical evidence and modern day evidence.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like yeah, that episode is a little more bouncy.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Something like this, where there's again a very concise history that is very linear, it's easier to get from point A to point B.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: So this will be a little more straightforward, but a lot of good stuff to cover.
11:45
SPEAKER_02: So I suppose we start linear 1473.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: Margaret is born.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: She's born, and this is cool.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: This is prime time in the War of Roses, which was a large, almost civil war of sorts.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh in one house.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, the house of, and it was uh two essentially branches of the house.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: So the Lancaster branch versus the York branch.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: I like to say if anybody's really interested in the Plantagenens and the War of the Roses, I love historical fiction personally, and I'm a huge fan of Philippa Gregory, but the White Queen, that whole series is basically about this.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, that that's a good place to start.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and each rose represented a house, right?
12:28
SPEAKER_01: So what would the white was the York house, correct?
12:31
SPEAKER_01: And then the red was the Lancaster.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: And our our um protagonist of of today's story, Margaret Pohl, she was born into Yorkist blood, and she was actually born a princess in the house of Plantagenets.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: Um started off with a pretty uh gr uh gruesome life.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: Her mother died just when she was three.
12:52
SPEAKER_02: I read that she died of childbirth.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is funny because when I was doing my research, I um read that she was believed to have been poisoned, and they say that two of her servants were killed because they were thought to be the ones who poisoned her.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: So very reminiscent of our Richard Roos episode.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Were they boiled?
13:09
SPEAKER_01: But maybe.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: There wasn't there was no documentation of their deaths.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, apparently, you know, death just surrounded this era.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Lots of poisonings, lots of executions.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: A lot of death, and then just two years later, when she was only five, her father, so her father was the Duke of Clarence, who's actually the brother of King Edward IV.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: So her uncle's the king, she's the niece of a king, that's why she's born into royal blood.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: And great brotherly love here, he executes him for treason, her her own father.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: So um, not off to a great start with her family.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: So by the time she was five, she's essentially an orphan.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't even know how she goes about, I don't know if you know for sure, but how she goes about uh the rest of her years as a young girl.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: But essentially by the time she's I think 12, she's a lady in waiting for Catherine of Aragon, yeah.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very early.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: Uh and at this point then, in fifth, I'm sorry, 1485 is the Battle of Bosworth.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is such a cool battle.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: And they still you can go to the battlefield now, but this is such like a thing from like knights and like tales of the you know, knights and all of that.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: But basically, um Richard III at the time he was the king, and uh Henry Tudor, who also Henry the Seventh, he literally defeats Richard III on the battlefield, and he starts the Tudor dynasty.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: So when you're interested in the Tudors and you wonder where to start, 1485 is your year.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: Henry the Seventh, so we're talking about King Henry VIII's father, right?
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, he takes the throne, he has the crown, and he is a relative of Margaret Pohl.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh Margaret Pohl again, who becomes a essentially personal assistant.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: If you don't know what a lady in waiting is, which I'm assuming if you are interested in this podcast, you do.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: My future job, I wish.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, I was like, that's actually the coolest job you could probably have.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Because there's not a lot of risk involved for you.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: Like you're not as much of a headliner as a queen or a princess.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: Like in some of our future stories, like the ladies in waitings were not always that innocent.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they had their own intrigues and whatnot, but but essentially you're just a personal assistant, you're a noble personal assistant to whoever you're waiting on.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: And you're usually noble yourself, but you're waiting on somebody who's of more noble status than you.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's a pretty cool gig.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: Usually you become like besties with the friend and or with the girl who you're waiting on.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: And it would be my dream.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean Do you think they Hufflepuff?
15:45
SPEAKER_02: I I just want to be friends with the queen.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: I just want to be your friends.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: I want to plot against that.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: Do you think Megan Markle has like a lady in waiting position for that?
15:52
SPEAKER_01: That's actually a great question.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: No, no.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Do current royals have ladies in waiting?
15:57
SPEAKER_02: Well, they have their real assistants.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, maybe they just title them differently.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: Now you're called an executive assistant, but really lady in waiting.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: Thoughts.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: If I ever like reach to the level where I need an executive assistant, I'm not gonna call it that.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Your lady in waiting.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: I'll be your lady in waiting, Elizabeth.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Can I call you Queen Elizabeth?
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh, absolutely.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: I think I agree, or just Elizabeth the Bloody, whatever.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth the Bloody.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, okay, Mary.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh we'll get there.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: So at this point, Henry the Seventh is on the throne.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, Margaret Pohl is a young teenager, and this is sad again, the bad luck in her family.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: Henry the Seventh.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: I can see how like his son the eighth kind of took after his paranoia, but he gets, yeah, he's paranoid that um her and her brother are pretty much next in line for the throne.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: And so he imprisons her brother, who's Edward of Warwick, for 15 years until he gets executed.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: Poor little soul.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: That's nuts.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: So now her mother has died either of childbirth or poisoning.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Her dad's been executed, her brother's been executed.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: He is beheaded.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: And we should we should clarify for for like royal blood like this, majorly they were executed by a beheading, which was the like pompous, not pompous, but like the prestigious way of getting executed.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: The noble way of dying.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: The noble way of death was a beheading.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you just get your head cut off, it's no big deal.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: Hence the name of our podcast, Beheaded.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, so um, amongst this time, or throughout this time, she ended up getting married um to what remind me of his name.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: He's not important.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Sir Richard Pohl.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: He is important.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: And she was only 14.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: She was young, she was a little girl.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Very young when she got married.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: They had five kids together, four boys and one girl.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, not all at 14.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: And what was interesting is like she was essentially more titled than he was.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: He didn't really have he was of lesser status essentially than her when she was married.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Pretty much.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: So um they were married.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: He actually dies in 1505.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and well, that was intentional though, for Henry VII.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: He kind of he didn't want to set Margaret up for success because she was a threat to his lineage.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: So he set her up with Sir Richard Pohl, who, again, like not, we're not talking about like a farmer out in the woods.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: Like he was still of the court, but just not of as high of status.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh after he dies in 1505, she essentially has no means of supporting herself.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: She's still um a lady in waiting for Catherine of Aragon, but she actually gets to the point where she has to live um at the Scion Abbey, which is with nuns.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: She's in a nunnery, essentially.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: She has nothing to her name.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: She has five children, no husband, no nothing.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: So she's forced essentially to live in a nunnery until 1509.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: 1509 favorite king marries Catherine of Aragon, his first wife.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: Well, cat King Henry VIII is on the throne.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: To be specific.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Yes, King Henry VIII gets on the throne, 1509, and he is now with Catherine of Aragon, who um, you know, is such like a pious woman and one of like the true like bravest women, I think, of this whole period.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: And I think that says a lot that Margaret Poole is one of her really dear friends and is now her lady and waiting and working in in the court with her.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: So she sticks with Catherine this whole time.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: Um things are and things are on the up.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: Things are up, yeah.
19:29
SPEAKER_02: Finally, it's so good once once Henry VIII actually gets on the throne.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Like it's very looking very optimistic for Miss Margaret.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: Like three years after they get married in 1512, um, Parliament actually restored some of her executed brother's lands to her.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, so because she's gained favor with the king, because she's with Catherine of Aragon, all of a sudden, like, you know, good luck starts coming her way.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: So she gets these lands.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: She apparently was a very good landowner.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: She managed the lands very well.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: So that's when she officially became the Countess of Salisbury.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: She like had a title, she had land.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: She had so much land and actually worked them so well that she became the fifth richest person in England of the Noble family.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: Like, I can you imagine like a woman power story.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: No, this is such a big deal.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like you go from literally five kids, like dead husband, living in a nunnery, to like, oh, actually, I'm a badass bitch.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: And also, every time you heard Countess of Salisbury, did you not keep thinking of Salisbury steak?
20:26
SPEAKER_02: And did you get hungry?
20:27
SPEAKER_02: I don't even know what that is.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: What?
20:29
SPEAKER_02: Salisbury steak?
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you don't know.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Is it a type of steak or like a brand?
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Is it a brand?
20:33
SPEAKER_02: It's not a cheaper type of steak.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: It's like a more of like a it's like a beef.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Is it like a crust of steak or is it like a brand?
20:39
SPEAKER_01: No, it's like pepper.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: It's like the way you prepare the steak.
20:42
SPEAKER_02: But it's not like a thick cut of steak.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: It's like a like not fancy for not knowing that.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to make it sound gross, but I almost think it's like ground beef, but you put like mushrooms and stuff on top of it with like a I have no idea what this is.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: Lean cuisine makes a pretty good version of it.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I see.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: They kept like craving that while I was preparing for this.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: Didn't crust me.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: We always like to get it back to food in somehow, but I was thinking Salisbury State.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean sorry, it's not not to detract us too much, but so she's becomes the countess, and she becomes the countess in her own right, which means so often they would get an important title like that through their husband.
21:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, through their husband, just because maybe their husband becomes a duke, so they're a duchess, or he's a count, she's a countess, but she didn't have a husband.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: This was all on her own doing.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: No titled husband, and which she was only, this is exciting.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: She can say it.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, she was only one of two women in 16th century England to not have a titled husband and have titles herself.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Who was the other one, Megan?
21:44
SPEAKER_02: Anne Ball.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: That's my deal.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: My favorite person ever.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she was the only other person in this era who who had that type of a title.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: So before we go on, I'm gonna have a wine break and just like You're gonna hear this, so you might as well know what I'm doing.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: A really important thing to remember about Margaret through this whole whole time is she's a devout Catholic Catholic.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: And kind of the way I like to think of this whole era, we kind of we mentioned this again when we were in Boiling Point when we were talking about Richard Roos, but I like to think of it as two teams in this era.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: You're either Team Catholic or Team Protestant.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: And if you get confused of what's going on at the time, the important thing to know is Henry VIII started off with Catherine of Aragon, who is also a di a devout Catholic.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: And when things started to turn is when Anne Boleyn gets in the picture and she encourages Henry to break away from the Catholic Church and start the Church of England.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: So Henry's assuming that everyone's gonna be faithful to him and follow once he changes routes, everyone's gonna change with him.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: Because he's the king.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's the king, and he uh is breaking away from the Catholic Church, and the whole reason he's breaking away is because the Catholic Church doesn't allow him to divorce Catherine and um marry Anne Boleyn.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: So he's really just thinking religion in his pants.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: He's thinking in his pants.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he uh literally did this whole Reformation, entire splitting from the Catholic Church just so he could like, you know.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: So he could marry Anne.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: So doing it.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: Not even who was Mary because well, I don't want to get too much into Anne, but Anne wouldn't wouldn't sleep with him supposedly until he was married to her.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: So of course Catherine of Aragon's daughter is Mary the First.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: And I like to think of it of like Team Mary slash Catherine of Aragon slash Team Catholicism.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which is all Catholicism.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: And then there was Team Anne, Team Protestant, Team Henry VIII, pretty much.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: On the other side.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: That's a good way to look at it.
24:00
SPEAKER_02: So at this point we're we're hovering around the 1520s.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And in 1520 is when uh um Margaret became a governess for Mary, Princess Mary.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: So Mary the First, um, again, becomes under her tutelage, and she's her little angel.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Her little princess Mary.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: And she is also obviously Henry's first child at all.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, he's waiting for a boy, he's waiting for an heir.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: But he, what does he call her?
24:30
SPEAKER_01: He calls her the pearl of his kingdom or something.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: He has a very cute name for her.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that sounds right.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: But he was very doting on her.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was like it's funny because of all the things that happened after that he was so sweet to her.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, when she was little, and I'm gonna see what this was.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: The Pearl of the Kingdom.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: The Pearl of the Kingdom.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: That's so sweet.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: He has his little names for all of his favorites.
24:53
SPEAKER_02: Little favorites, I feel like.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: But um, again, I I know a lot of you are very well aware of the whole lineage of King Henry VIII, but there's always this aha moment, I feel like that comes when you start putting the puzzle pieces together.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh, Mary I, Princess Mary, this is inevitably Bloody Mary.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: As we get later on with Elizabeth I, Mary Queen of Scots, that whole era.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's kind of who we're talking about, but we're talking about little sweet Princess Mary.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: She's not Bloody Mary yet.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Not yet, but we can see why.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: Can we though?
25:26
SPEAKER_02: She's such a sweet.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: Some kids you can just predict when they're little, you're like, this kid's gonna need therapy one day.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: She did go through a lot, I have to admit.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: A lot to handle.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: Lot to handle.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: So so throughout this whole time, you know, when she's acquiring land, when she's the governess um for little Mary, there's just certain points of tension she has with King Henry VIII.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: So there were small land disputes, like nothing large, but obviously she's a businesswoman.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: She has her empire of land.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So there were small disputes that she had over who owned what parcels of land, um, you know, and she'd get into it with King Henry VIII over those.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Again, when Mary was born, she was very protective of her.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, and when the time comes that he's ready to divorce Catherine, um, and essentially Mary becomes a bastard child, which is crazy.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like, how do you become you're you're born a princess and then you become a bastard child just because your par your dad's like, actually, I don't like your mom anymore.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: Well, because it's crazy.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: If you get to the root of why Henry VIII even his whole basis of divorcing Catherine of Aragon, okay, we're getting into it now.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: I know it's a lot of layers.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: We'll give it a high-level synopsis.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: So Henry VIII marries Catherine of Aragon, but prior to Catherine being married to Henry, she was married to his older brother Arthur.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: And Arthur was a very sick man, pretty young, but supposedly, according to Catherine of Aragon, they never consummated the marriage.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: And it was only on that ground that she was even able to marry his brother.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: Now, Henry VIII, once he met Anne and his eyes started getting div diverted, he needed a reason to divorce Anne, or I'm sorry, divorce Catherine.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: And his whole reason was hey, look here in the Bible, it says that you can't lay with your um husband's brother.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: And and Catherine's saying, I never slept with Arthur, and he's saying lies, yes, you did.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: That's why we're not getting sons.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: He had this whole this whole thing.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: Paranoia theory, yeah.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Really, I mean, a lot of it was him just needing to get away from Catherine of Aragon.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: He's gonna invent whatever reason.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: He went down that route and said you slept with my brother first.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the pearl of his kingdom now becomes essentially a bastard daughter.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm kind of opening up the can of worms right here, and I know our our podcast specifically is about execution, so we definitely want to get to that part of the story, but there is so much that goes into it, and I highly recommend if you are completely lost at this point and you're like, wait, who's who?
28:00
SPEAKER_02: And Catherine and what and Henry, and I know it seems like a lot.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: The puzzle pieces will all come together.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: It comes together.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: I highly recommend you really deep dive into it because it is like the fascinating, like drama of the 1500s.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: It's they are the Kardashians of the 1500s.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: That's terrible.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Even though I hate the Kardashians.
28:19
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say uh what's a better reference to that?
28:22
SPEAKER_02: The Royals?
28:25
SPEAKER_02: I guess they're a little scandalous, but nothing.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: No, they're not scandalous.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: That's who in terms of scandal.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: And oh my god, she divorced him, and did he sleep with her?
28:33
SPEAKER_00: The Murdoch family.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:35
unknown: What?
28:36
SPEAKER_01: The Murdoch family.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, very wealthy East Coast family.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: HBO Succession is a great show.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: It's supposed to be based on them.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm not classy enough to know about it.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: It's fabulous.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Look it up, it's really good.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, but so go sorry to interject, but so essentially, once she's a bastard child, um Margaret is extremely on her side.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: She argues with Henry as to like where, like who owns the jewels that Mary has, because Henry's trying to take them back.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: He's like saying these are the court's jewels, these are the king's jewels.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: She's like, No, you gave her this gold plate, you gave her these jewels, these are hers.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, so they go through all these essentially petty small battles regarding land, regarding the jewels.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: Go her, though.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: To even stand up to Henry VIII.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Who's a crazy person?
29:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, mind you, it didn't quite work out for her.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: But hey, she just tried.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: She gave it a shot.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but she was fiercely loyal to Catherine.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, whatever she could do to support her, uh, she she did.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: And again, she became pretty well known in her own right, so go her.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: I agree.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: And it's so funny because in this time period, everything is about like in favor of the king or out of favor.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: And you can quickly go in favor and out of favor.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: So, like, for example, 1520, she's governess to Princess Mary.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: 1521 removed from the role because her son was suspected of treason.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: 1525 got reinstated, 1533 lost her job again, and it is back and forth and back and forth.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: And when Henry was quote, you were not in favor with him, that meant shit, you're in trouble.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you are getting lands taken away, you're getting property taken away, he's removing you from court, and then all of a sudden be like, eh I kind of miss having you around.
30:26
SPEAKER_02: Just kidding.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: Can you come back?
30:28
SPEAKER_01: We miss you at Christmas.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: We missed you last year, Margaret.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just uh the holidays were not the same without you.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Little Mary wanted her governess with you.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh essentially what it came down to is, and Megan kind of referenced this, but her sons had a lot of issues.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: So we just lost control over that.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she she didn't know how to play politics, she really didn't know how to like tutor her kids into playing politics.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: So they were a pretty wily bunch when it came to speaking out against the king and against what was going on.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh obviously she was fiercely Catholic, so her kids were also very Catholic.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: And again, they didn't really know when enough was enough and how to stop and when they were actually in danger of the king's wrath.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: And that's the problem, is you need to know when to shut up sometimes.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: Shut up.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: Shut up.
31:17
SPEAKER_02: And in 1536, she really starts getting detached from King Henry VIII.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: And at this point, it's not about petty arguments of land and property and are you raising my daughter the right way?
31:28
SPEAKER_02: But it is about his role as creating the Church of England.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: And again, this is going back to what we're talking about with Bishop Fisher and everything, where so much of this comes down to is he was having everybody sign the oath, agreeing, yes, I I am away from the Catholic Church, I agree, or the Church of England.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: Right.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, and some people just were not on board with that, and one of those people was her son, um, Cardinal Reginald, who was a cardinal and had some big opinions going on.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and do you know what her other two sons were in trouble with as well?
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Because they were also kind of like a child.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, so her sons were Henry, Arthur, Reginald, Jeffrey, and then she had a daughter, Ursula.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, Henry and Jeffrey and Reginald, I didn't really hear too much about Arthur.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: I think he was the good kid of the group.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: He was probably the nerd who like, guys, I just want to We don't need to worry about that.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: We don't need to worry about this.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: I just want to test uh soil samples over here.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but so Henry was the oldest.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: He uh Henry, he was also Lord Montague.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: Um Jeffrey started supporting Reginald and Henry, and so so Reginald basically wrote a pamphlet um completely against the king.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like denied the royal supremacy in general.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, he he urged the princes of Europe to essentially get rid of Henry.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, he was trying all he could to really um prove that he was uh like a tyrant of a leader.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: Um and obviously this didn't sit well with King Henry VIII.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a man who's already paranoid of everything, you come at him with something like this, like the Northern Rebellion is also starting, because it's not just like a couple people here and there who are getting upset with Henry because they're taking away, he's taking away their religion, their Catholicism.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: Um the Northern Rebellion is starting as well.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: So Henry is feeling like, hey, these poles are in on it, and they are going to lead this rebellion.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Jeffrey starts supporting his his brother, Reginald, and before we know it, they are in deep trouble, and it sucks because Reginald is living off with the Pope in Rome and doesn't even realize like he fled.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: He is he's kind of like that guy, he's like the the troll on the internet, you know?
33:49
SPEAKER_01: Back into his mom's basement.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like he's like caught behind the keyboard, but he's not facing Henry.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: Right.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's in Rome, he's well protected.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: And at this time, I mean, travel's difficult.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't just board a plane like from England to Rome.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is difficult to get place to place.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: So when you're gone, you're you're pretty well protected, especially if you're Catholic in the walls of I'm assuming he's at the Vatican.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's at the Vatican with the Pope.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, what is Henry gonna do?
34:15
SPEAKER_02: Like write him an a strongly worded letter back.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: No, the only and and Reginald didn't think about this because who is left in England?
34:25
SPEAKER_01: His mother.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: His mother and his brothers.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: And of course, that's who Henry goes to attack because he's pissed at Reginald.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: So the year is 1939 when 1939.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: We're all over the place.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: It's 2020 now, guys.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: 1939's so far away.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: No, okay, excuse me, 1539.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: 1539.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Slight difference.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, so this is officially when two of the sons and Margaret were attained.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: So they were taken to the Tower of London, and this I didn't know prior to us like researching again today, but they were held there for two and a half years.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: Two and a half years.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: And never knowing essentially why they were there, what they were charged with, what their fates were going to be, anything.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's sad to say, but that's almost kind of a normal thing, too, with all of these imprisonments that were happening in the tower.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: The good thing is, Jeffrey, one of the brothers, um, really was pardoned.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: Before we get to that, before we get to the pardon, how many people does the Tower of London hold?
35:27
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like it's a hotel full of treasonous people.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, are we talking like 200 people?
35:33
SPEAKER_01: And there's different, like, look at the city.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Are we talking about like 2,000 people?
35:36
SPEAKER_02: You have the penthouse of like the nobles.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: That's where the fur slippers and fur coats are.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: And then you get down below, and then there's like the dirty dungeons.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: But I I don't know, that's a good question.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: Oh, can I Google it really quick?
35:50
SPEAKER_02: How many people does the Tower of London hold at a time?
35:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at this.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: Like at a time, though.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: I know there's like records of how many people there in total.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: Does the Tower of London hold?
36:04
SPEAKER_00: Google, answer my question.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: That's not helpful.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't say it has a visitor number, which by the way is over 2.8 million.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: Lots.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna find out.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: The one thing that we do know though is Margaret was um in her two and a half years being arrested in the Tower of London.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: She wasn't in the worst of conditions.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: No, not really.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, you're still in prison.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's not great to not be let out into the world.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there are reports that uh which queen was it that sent her gifts?
36:39
SPEAKER_02: Catherine Howard.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't Catherine of Aragon.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: So at this point, Henry's already gone through Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, and now he's on his fifth wife, Catherine Howard.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: Yes, thank you.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: Who was kind of like the ditz.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: She will actually be in herself her own episode.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: Don't want to give away her ending or anything.
37:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, no, but she will be on this episode.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, but she was a very um uh I wanna say flamboyant, but like just loved frivolous.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: Frivolous.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: She loved her clothes, she loved her jewels, she loved her parties.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: She wasn't queen for very long.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, but so rumor has it is um even like it was actually in her very last year where Margaret Poole was in the tower.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: And mind you, this is important, she was 65 years old when she was arrested.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: The oldest woman being held in and executed in the Tower of London.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, and similar to like our Salem Witch episode, you know, we assumed, okay, maybe she was, I don't know, 40s when she was incarcerated.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: Near death, 65 years old.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: In that time, in that time, yeah, you're frail, uh thrown into the Tower of London.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, because of the good grace of Catherine Howard, she was given uh fur robes and fur slippers and all the comforts of home, which we were talking about before we started podcasting.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: And we were like, you know, do you think it was because she was actually trying to be like noble and good spirited and be like, here are these things to the Tower of London?
38:17
SPEAKER_01: Or was it more like, oh, these are last season's slippers?
38:20
SPEAKER_02: I really think she just cleaned out her closet every time she did compile to the goodwill.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and it went to Margaret Poole in the Tower of London.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: She probably didn't even know where it was going.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: She's like, these are disgusting.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: Did they fit her?
38:32
SPEAKER_02: A 65-year-old woman taking like a 20-year-old's maybe it's one size fits all.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: Back in the day, maybe it was everything was one size fits all.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, actually, no, I I I uh I do think it was partially donation.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: I also read that she had her seamstress make clothes for Margaret Pohl.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: But in the end, I think it just shows that I don't think anyone really thought of her as a traitor.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: I think she was just a pawn in this whole scheme.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: She's the poor mother who got pulled into all of it.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with her her sons really having no regard for her life and doing whatever they wanted to do.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and they feel bad for her.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: And she's 65 years old, and they're starting this whole investigation now on them for treason.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: And what they do find is um they start kind of planting spies in her household.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: And actually, one of her servants, uh, Hugh Holland, he was arrested and interrogated.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: And of course, this poor little servant is afraid of getting tortured in the Tower of London, and he just spills everything.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: And he's talking about how she's had priests at her house, and um they she practices the old faith of Catholicism.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: She's refused to allow her um household to have English Bibles, which is um, you know, a trait of Catholicism, right?
39:46
SPEAKER_02: And not allowing the Protestant Bibles to come in.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: So um they're planning these spies, and then Thomas Cromwell's doing this investigation, and he finds in her house a little tunic of the is that is that the word a tunic?
40:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a tunic of the five wounds of Christ, which was a symbol of the Northern Rebellion again, all those Catholics up in Northern England who were trying to fight against Henry.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Right, which is funny that like Catholicism was considered heresy, right?
40:14
SPEAKER_01: Of all things, it's like, oh, you're Catholic, you're definitely a heretic.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, they take that for such a granite of freedom of religion.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
40:21
SPEAKER_02: But once the king was one religion, you were also that religious.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: You had to be that, exactly.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, again, you you face the the gallows or the block.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, but so when she was in prison, uh she wrote a poem that was carved on the wall of her cell, which I would love to tell you guys about.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes, please read.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, so her poem, and again, this is kind of not proves her innocence, but proves how set she was on just the fact that she had no crime.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: So she said, For traitors on the block should die.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: I am no traitor, no, not I.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: My faithfulness stands fast and so towards the block, I shall not go, nor make one step, as you shall see.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Christ in thy mercy, save thou me.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: It's very sad when you Her last plea of innocence.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: Consider how she actually died.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was the morning of May 27th, 1541.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: She's 67 years old.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: She's been in the tower for two and a half years.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: And she's finally told there's an execution or I don't know if it's an executioner, but a person who comes up to her her room and says that she's going to die within the hour.
41:26
SPEAKER_02: Within the hour?
41:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: Like after two and a half years.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: Oh, oh, I'm sorry, we're doing this now.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh now.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, now.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Where's my dress?
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Let's get ready here.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: Is my execution dress here?
41:42
SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, she had no trial.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: No, nothing.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: And again, it like certain um wit witnesses who saw the execution said that they've never seen anyone just so unknowing of their crime, so unknowing of how she was to be executed and how she was sentenced.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Like nothing.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: She was essentially drawn to the to the block, like, okay, okay, what's going on?
42:04
SPEAKER_01: And when they told her almost like Nikki Romanoff when they read off his execution, and he's like, Wait, what?
42:09
SPEAKER_02: She was shocked.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: They said that when they told her, Okay, you're you're going to die today, you are going to be beheaded.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: She said they they said she looked confused and she didn't know what her crime was and was kind of in the state of disbelief, like, I'm sorry, what?
42:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, and unlike Nikki Romanov, where they just said, You will die, and lifted up their guns, like, they're like, Okay, get ready.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be in an hour.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure had they had guns, they would have just taken care of her then.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, but in those days, okay, follow us.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: Come down here, go down the stairs.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: So she's at the Tower of London, the year is 1541, and she goes out, and this is kind of a cool I don't know if it's a cool thing.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: For me, it's a cool thing.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: But when you were of noble blood like that, you didn't necessarily have a public execution, but there were witnesses.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is something I didn't know.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: I always thought everything was a public execution.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, but according to this, um there were again maybe 150 people in attendance, um, all of which were nobility, so that wasn't considered public, even though to me, I mean, that's very public.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of people.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, but back in the day, I mean, again, it was uh you were granted to be not executed before the populace.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't the masses that came and saw you, it was a select group of just a small, intimate 150 people gathering.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, and this wasn't like the jeering and the cheering of like the teeth gnashing.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this wasn't like the the low, the more like um like third class people just coming for a show to watch someone be executed.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: This was more again, they called them witnesses, and it was a little bit more stoic, I think, and a little bit more respectful.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: So um, she did not have a scaffold to walk up to.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: There was just a block sitting there.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Oh god.
43:49
SPEAKER_02: And this is where it gets really interesting because for some reason there's this whole myth and legend that she was running away from the executioner.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was kind of famous.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: After that, because there was a struggle.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she didn't go easily to the block.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: There was also a very inexperienced executioner.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: So lo and behold, people later were like, Oh my gosh, she was running away.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: There's all these like modern reports of her being like reckless and crazy running away from the axe.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: Now they did say she was pretty much poisoned.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: Like even when she was being interrogated by Thomas Cromwell and they were questioning her, they even said, like, um, you know, she was so brave.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: I thought I I should have the exact quote, but like basically they're like, oh, she was as brave as a man, and she was just so um composed through all of it and really kept her regality.
44:42
SPEAKER_02: And of course, like, what do you like?
44:43
SPEAKER_02: How would you behave then?
44:44
SPEAKER_02: We've talked about this before.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: Like there has to be a little bit of hesitance when someone says within the hour, like exactly.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: And when you're so sure you're innocent, yeah, you're going to refuse certain things.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's what the some of the witnesses said is that she refused to lay her head head up on the block, and she kept saying um, you know, things about traitors and how she wasn't one.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: She said, So should traitors do, I am none.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: So she basically was rejecting the block, saying, like, this isn't for me.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a traitor, I'm not treasonous.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: So it was it was funny to see um again that that was taken to an extreme of, oh, she ran away from the block.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, because she was composed throughout most of it, but she did refuse.
45:19
SPEAKER_02: She was turning her head certain ways, and because of the bumbling idiot that was trying to called him a blundering youth in some of the accounts of uh describing the executioner.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: And no, I like the exact quote.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: They said, a wretched and blundering youth who literally hacked her head and shoulders to pieces in the most pitiful manner.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: So this is a botched execution.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: Completely botched.
45:45
SPEAKER_02: Oh, poor Margaret.
45:46
SPEAKER_02: This is not sweet.
45:47
SPEAKER_02: She did not deserve this.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: No.
45:49
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I feel like angry over this.
45:52
SPEAKER_02: So the thing is, is the um experienced executioner, I guess you can call him, the the normal executioner of he was on vacation.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: No, he was dealing with those nasty rebels up north, so they had him busy at work away from the Tower of London.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: And they got like this backup little kid to probably like an apprentice, just like, hey, hey, uh backup executioner, are you ready to go?
46:17
SPEAKER_01: How it's my first one, you can do it.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: How hard can it be?
46:21
SPEAKER_01: How how hot's your arm?
46:22
SPEAKER_01: Are you ready?
46:23
SPEAKER_02: Uh are you doing practicing?
46:25
SPEAKER_02: So they definitely missed the first time, hacked her a little bit to pieces, her head and shoulders.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where some of I you can imagine like the telephone game, how rumors start to fly and it turns into her running away in this huge scene.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: One person's like, oh, that was botched.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: The next person's like, oh man, she was moving pretty, pretty big.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: The other person's like, I think she got up and tried to leave.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: I think the executioner chased her with an axe and ran away.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: You can see how all that can piece together in a way.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: But they said it was highly unlikely that she actually was, you know, rem or trying to run away from the block.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: Most likely she struggled, she refused, but in the end, definitely took a couple blows, though.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: Pretty bad botch.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Oof.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: Poor Margaret.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: Worst way to die.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: Worst way to die.
47:07
SPEAKER_02: And that's the fear, too, is like you expect, all right, I'm gonna get beheaded, at least make it good.
47:12
SPEAKER_02: And and that's where the whole guillotine comes in again, where like it was a more clean cut, yes, and it was guaranteed, versus having a blundering youth try to hack away at your shoulders.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh god.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: She's 67.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's she's too old for this nonsense.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: I can't even imagine.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: No way.
47:30
SPEAKER_02: Put her in a boiling pot of water and call it a day.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Seriously, yeah, it only takes a couple hours.
47:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that was pretty much the end of her family.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: And again, like her family kind of started with execution, ended with execution.
47:45
SPEAKER_02: Her son, Henry Pohl, Lord Montague, who we referred to earlier, he was also beheaded along with his cousin.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: And their whole family pretty much had a downfall.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: Jeffrey was exiled, he was fine.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: Reginald ended up, he ran off to Rome, but he left his mom and his brother there to squirm around and get beheaded.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, no big deal.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: How did he feel after that?
48:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, according to Showtime the Tutors, he was quite distraught.
48:12
SPEAKER_02: He cried.
48:13
SPEAKER_02: He cried a little.
48:15
SPEAKER_02: I think, honestly, though, he would have been like, Oh, thank God I'm over here and not there.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, we were we did a quick refresh of the tutors before we started this, and we were a little upset as to uh how it was handled.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, how they how they portrayed her and her cell being told.
48:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because in the the accounts that we heard is she had much dignity, and she, you know, she said her little things like for traitors on the block should die.
48:39
SPEAKER_02: I am no traitor, no, not I.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: But in the tutor, in the showtime, the tutors, she's like, No, no, don't touch me, don't touch me.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: And she's like running away.
48:48
SPEAKER_02: You don't want to die.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Being panicked, yeah.
48:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and um, she was still like this prestige and and composed woman up until the end.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: As much as you can be, but I don't know, and then they didn't even show the execution.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: Uh I love a good execution.
49:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, oh, we should do uh History to Hollywood on this one.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: Remember, so uh that was back in episode two.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: Episode two, we did a little segment called History to Hollywood of our favorite um Hollywood version.
49:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: Um we didn't get a good one of uh Margaret Pohl in Showtime.
49:24
SPEAKER_02: No, I was just disappointed.
49:26
SPEAKER_02: There wasn't I don't know if there is a good execution.
49:28
SPEAKER_02: I know she does have a few show.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: She's in rain too, but oh right, yeah.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it showed her execution on rain.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: No.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: I stopped watching rain after like two seasons.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would I still kind of want to finish it to see, you know.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: It was too like gossip girl for me.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think that's the point.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: Because it's supposed to be like a mix of accurate modern.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: It's like pretty little liars made the tutors, somewhat.
49:51
SPEAKER_02: She wears her hair down every day.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: You think that would have been a thing?
49:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, the first time I asked Megan, I was like, Do you like that show Rain?
49:57
SPEAKER_01: She's like, she wears her hair down like she's a lady of the night.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: Like a lady of the night.
50:02
SPEAKER_02: I was like, whoa, okay.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: It's supposed to be Mary Queen of Scots, looks nothing like her.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: I get it, but that's the whole point of Rain.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: Is it supposed to be like a modern spin?
50:08
SPEAKER_01: I actually don't hate it too much.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think it's I tried it.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: I really tried it.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: I love the love triangle.
50:14
SPEAKER_02: I hate I like watching shows for their um closeness to history.
50:21
SPEAKER_02: Like, I can't handle just like this podcast.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: It's so historically accurate and we're so dull and boring and dry.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: When I yell, I yell at the TV when things go wrong.
50:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, that's not what happened!
50:32
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like throwing my drink and I'm for the art and it's for the costumes, it's for the fun.
50:39
SPEAKER_02: Even the showtime, even Showtime's the Tutors like strays a lot, but it's still, I feel like the writers still have a good grounding.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: Rain was just like a team.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay, what would you say again going back to History to Hollywood?
50:52
SPEAKER_01: History to Hollywood.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: But okay, what would what was your favorite execution then?
50:56
SPEAKER_01: That and this is a big question because there's a lot, but like favorite execution through movies.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: In a like a movie or a show?
51:04
SPEAKER_01: That's a big question.
51:05
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot.
51:06
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot.
51:07
SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's a lot.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: You can go fictional here too if you'd like.
51:12
SPEAKER_01: You can do any execution.
51:13
SPEAKER_02: Any execution ever?
51:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh man.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: Like I really liked.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I like most Anne Boleyn's.
51:21
SPEAKER_02: I I could tell you my worst execution.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: That's not what I asked for.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh sure, why not?
51:25
SPEAKER_01: Go.
51:26
SPEAKER_02: Maybe this is more of an episode for Anne Boleyn, but I I really didn't like how they did the other Boleyn girl and her execution.
51:32
SPEAKER_02: But okay, I do have a favorite.
51:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: It is HBO's miniseries, Elizabeth.
51:39
SPEAKER_02: I think it was Elizabeth I or Elizabeth.
51:41
SPEAKER_02: It's the one with Helen Miren and Jeremy Irons.
51:43
SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
51:44
SPEAKER_02: Really, really good mini-series.
51:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, Mary Queen of Scots' execution in that one.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, also botched.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: Also botched.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: Because they show it.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: They show it.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: They show it.
51:56
SPEAKER_02: And I remember being like 15 watching it, and like that was kind of the start of my my passion for tutor history.
52:01
SPEAKER_02: I think.
52:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it kind of started with that.
52:04
SPEAKER_01: 15-year-old Meg was like, I don't know what a podcast is, but one day I want one about this.
52:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna invent this.
52:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh no, they it's just so dramatic, and A, they got her age right in it, versus like the um I'm gonna butcher her name, Sorsa Ronin.
52:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I'm saying that wrong.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: Sortia.
52:26
SPEAKER_02: Don't know who that is.
52:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you do.
52:27
SPEAKER_02: From Mary Queen of Scots, the one with Margarie and Yeah, oh yes, the recent one that came out like last year.
52:33
SPEAKER_02: Like again, Mary Queen of Scots was in her 40s.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: So that didn't portray it quite correctly because of the actresses that they chose.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: I get it.
52:41
SPEAKER_02: But in this one, she was age accurate.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: It seemed pretty realistic.
52:45
SPEAKER_02: She ripped off her dress to show the red dress underneath, and then the executioner like hacks her first in the neck and only gets halfway through, and they show it because they have like some really great prosthetics and stuff going on.
53:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in CGI, and then she goes, and like you don't do that, like gasps, and then he does like the second hack.
53:08
SPEAKER_02: Yikes, and I love it.
53:10
SPEAKER_02: And I could watch that in slow motion because I'm a sick person.
53:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay, history to Hollywood.
53:18
SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, what is your favorite execution in um a movie or TV show?
53:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, I have a few, and I don't want to be corny because we've mentioned so many of like the ones that I love already on this podcast.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: Like, and this, these aren't my favorite, I'll talk about my favorite, but just shout outs to some honorable mentions.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: I love pirates.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: What is it, the third pirates, where they are executing all the people at the beginning.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: It's just a series of hangings, and it's like right to habeas corpus, suspended.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's like and it so it shows this a line of people who are you know being executed.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: That I love that scene, and then they start singing, they started to sing.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: Again, not realistic, but really good scene.
53:59
SPEAKER_02: I was moved during that episode.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was cool.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: And then again, another runner-up, and I didn't want to talk about this as my favorite because we talked about mummies last episode, but love real-life mummification in the mummy, where he is, you know, his tongue is taken out and all of his organs are removed while he's alive.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, I just think that's the coolest thing.
54:16
SPEAKER_01: There needs to be more movies about ancient Egypt.
54:18
SPEAKER_02: There needs to be more movies about executions in general, yes.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: Here, here.
54:23
SPEAKER_02: Here, here.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: And then I will say, okay, but ultimate favorite execution, William Wallace.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, Braveheart.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: Braveheart.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: Like that took it that doesn't get any more gruesome.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: And again, they're not extremely graphic in the movie, not to the point of what you were talking about with Mary Queen of Scots, but you can tell, you know what's happening.
54:43
SPEAKER_02: Just enough to know what's going on.
54:44
SPEAKER_02: And Mel Gibson's like, he does this weird look where his eyes get all weird and spacey and big.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because essentially it was like you were hanged, right?
54:52
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: And then you weren't allowed to actually die via hanging.
54:55
SPEAKER_01: So hang, rope cut, and then you were emasculated, so junk cut off, disemboweled, disgusting.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: While alive.
55:04
SPEAKER_01: While alive.
55:04
SPEAKER_01: Showed they showed it to you.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: They showed your bowel.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: Pull out their intestines, like pulling it out, show it in front of them.
55:12
SPEAKER_02: And that was the thing, and I don't think they put it in the movie.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: They they actually had this in the show I was just talking about in um in Elizabeth the first for the HBO series, they showed a really gruesome drawn and quartered scene.
55:26
SPEAKER_02: But like whenever the guy would pass out, they would dump water on his face.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they wanted you to be awake through all this, and then they would burn it in front of you.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: They burn all your insides in front of you, cut off your head, cut you into four.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: Disgusting.
55:40
SPEAKER_02: Thank God they cut off your head before cutting off your limbs.
55:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, absolutely.
55:43
SPEAKER_01: The dissemination is then you know, whatever it isn't enough.
55:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's enough.
55:46
SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: So again, it's super gruesome, but just so it's it's like it's like art.
55:53
SPEAKER_01: Like art can be good or bad or whatever, but if it makes you feel something, it's generally good art.
55:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I feel like of this.
56:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, whether it's good or bad or makes you uncomfortable, it's making you feel something.
56:03
SPEAKER_01: That's like to me, again, I hate to say it's my favorite, but it's my favorite execution.
56:08
SPEAKER_01: Gross.
56:09
SPEAKER_02: Are we messed up?
56:10
SPEAKER_02: No, do we have a problem?
56:11
SPEAKER_01: We're super normal.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think we need to go to therapy soon.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: I might see my therapist on Tuesday.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a therapist.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: Actually, Megan's my therapist.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm therapy.
56:22
SPEAKER_02: This is this is our own therapy that we need.
56:24
SPEAKER_02: We like to do that.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: I hope it's therapy for you.
56:26
SPEAKER_02: I hope it's therapy for you.
56:27
SPEAKER_02: The headings.
56:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: I I love Margaret Pohl.
56:31
SPEAKER_02: I think she was an amazing person.
56:33
SPEAKER_02: And we have to finish her story with um December 29th, 1886.
56:39
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
56:40
SPEAKER_02: She was named a saint, the blessed Margaret Pole.
56:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she became a martyr.
56:44
SPEAKER_02: She became a martyr just because um which is actually now that I'm thinking about it, kind of funny because uh she claimed her innocence the whole time, kind of saying, like, I'm not Catholic.
56:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh oh.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: E.
56:58
SPEAKER_01: Don't tell the Catholic Church about that.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
57:01
SPEAKER_02: But she was Catholic.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
57:03
SPEAKER_02: And she, I guess in a way it is seen as being really um, you know, devout, just the fact that she continued to practice it within her home, even though she kind of denied it while she was uh about to get her head cut off.
57:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know, when you're faced with that decision or that fate, I mean sometimes you you gotta deny a lot of things.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: But I suppose that's between you and God.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: It's intense.
57:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, we just ended on a really intense note.
57:32
SPEAKER_01: On a funner note, we're going Funner.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: Funner's a word for sure.
57:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: We're going to have an episode on William Wallace next.
57:39
SPEAKER_02: We have to.
57:40
SPEAKER_02: After you after you just explained that whole disembowelment situation, we have to.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: For the rest of our season, we were kind of laying out, you know, which pieces we wanted in place until the end of season one, and we talked about William Wallace, but I think he's next.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: He's gotta be next.
57:54
SPEAKER_02: He has to be next.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna have a badass Braveheart episode next.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: I hope you're excited.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: How does the Braveheart music go again?
57:59
SPEAKER_02: I almost started singing Lord of the Rings, but that wasn't right.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: Do do do do do.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: No, that's not it.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: That you I think also the second time we sing that song, which is from Princess and the Goblin.
58:10
SPEAKER_02: No, it's not.
58:11
SPEAKER_02: Do do do do do do do do do.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean do do do do do do do.
58:17
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna cut this part where we just sing random songs.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, maybe maybe next time William Wallace's music will be featured here.
58:26
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, like we did Dark of the Night episode, maybe it's the ending little feature.
58:31
SPEAKER_02: I like that idea.
58:33
SPEAKER_02: Well, Elizabeth, any last words?
58:36
SPEAKER_02: Not today.