Latest / The Fourcast / Francesca Albanese: ‘the truth’ behind Gaza’s ‘precarious’ ceasefire

Transcript

Francesca Albanese: ‘the truth’ behind Gaza’s ‘precarious’ ceasefire · The Fourcast

0:00
The ceasefire is not precarious, is non existent.
0:04
Why are these people being killed?
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I'm telling you because this is the genocide that continues
0:09
through other means. Israel has 0 intention to
0:13
relinquish control of the Gaza Strip.
0:16
So what has been sold to the world as the peace plan is a way
0:21
to push the international community to have an alibi not
0:25
to continue to engage with Gaza. Governments are complicit it.
0:29
Hasn't the last two years proven that for most world governments,
0:34
international law is not super? They believe in real politic, in
0:38
workable solutions. Are you in danger of making
0:43
perfection the enemy of the good?
0:45
That's so scary. Hello and welcome to the
0:51
forecast. Phase one of the ceasefire in
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Gaza is holding, but it's precarious.
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Hundreds of Gazans have been killed since it began.
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Hundreds of thousands remain homeless and displaced.
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The Israeli Defence Force still occupies much of the territory
1:05
and Hamas have re established themselves in some areas.
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So is Phase 2, with its transitional authority and
1:11
international peace Force, looking in any real way
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possible? Benjamin Netanyahu says it's
1:16
close. But if it is, where does that
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leave the rights of the Palestinians?
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Francesca Albanese is the UN special rapporteur on the
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occupied Palestinian territories.
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She has been an outspoken critic of Israel's actions in Gaza,
1:29
accusing it of genocide since we last spoke.
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She has been sanctioned by the Trump administration and has
1:35
published a new report on the complicity of much of the
1:39
outside world. Welcome and thank you for coming
1:40
back. Thank you, Krishnan.
1:42
The last time we spoke, you, you, you did speak a great deal
1:45
about complicity, but now you have written a a more formal
1:48
report about it. You know the world wants to move
1:52
on is the truth, doesn't it? They want to get on with the
1:55
peace process. With phase two, there isn't a
1:58
great desire to go back and examine what happened in the
2:02
past, but you're not going to let them move on.
2:05
No, no, I'm not going to let them off the hook because the I
2:09
understand that there is a great deal of interest in moving
2:13
forward. I think that the Palestinians
2:15
are the first to want to move forward, and I would be the
2:19
happiest not to have to document acts of genocide on a daily
2:23
basis. But The thing is that the
2:25
ceasefire is not, if you allow me, it's not precarious, is non
2:30
existent. You know, since the the day the
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ceasefire was proclaimed, nearly 400 Palestinians have been
2:38
killed by the Israeli army in Gaza.
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Israel has committed over 707 hundred violations of the
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ceasefire. It remains in over 50% of the
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Gaza Strip. It continues to demolish homes
2:56
to to pulverize what remains and what is more sadistic to
3:02
withhold aid 1/4 of what had been agreed as part of the
3:08
ceasefire, the so-called ceasefire as Hunter entered the
3:12
Gaza Strip. And I I really encourage
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everyone who's listening to us try to Google any mage of Gaza
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today. There are nearly 2 million of
3:23
survivors, genocide survivors, war survivors, whatever you want
3:27
to call them, who are literally literally in the storm without
3:32
anything to protect them. There is no shelter like a make
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destroyed makeshift tents and they and the Gaza is is flooded.
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There is a storm, a Byron storm which is hitting Gaza and these
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people are led to die starving and freezing if not killed by
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Israeli bombs. So where is the ceasefire?
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I don't know. I mean, I suppose the argument
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is that it's, it's, it's not at the intensity that it was.
4:00
The level of killing isn't as high as it was and more aid is
4:04
getting in and there is some political progress.
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I mean, do you at least agree that things are better than they
4:13
were at the beginning of October?
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If you're asking me a tough question because, you know, I
4:18
mean, if we had 24 British people killed every day, would
4:26
it be OK for you instead of 100? It's not OK to me because why
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are these people dying? Why are these people being
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killed? I'm telling you because this is
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the genocide that continues through other means.
4:41
Israel has 0 intention to relinquish control of the Gaza
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Strip. So what has been sold to the
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world as the as the peace plan, which other is nothing else than
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a 20 point thought bubble as Commissioner Sidoti has defined,
5:01
it is a way to push the international community to have
5:05
an alibi, not to continue to engage with Gaza.
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But if Israel wants to continue the expulsion of Palestinians
5:13
from there, because this is the last attempt, the last chance
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they have to regain control over Gaza.
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And we should also be talking of what's going on in the West.
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What do you mean by question? Because you have said Israel is
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continuing the ethnic cleansing of of of Gaza.
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What do you mean by that? Who is being expelled?
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Where are they going? What?
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What? What is the ethnic cleansing
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beyond the killing? I accept that there is killing
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going on. Yeah, there is.
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There is killings. But I've said that in the
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pursuit of this desire of ethnically cleanse what remains
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of historical Palestine, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and E
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Jerusalem, Israel has committed acts of genocide and using the
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fog of war as an excuse. And now the ceasefire risks
5:58
allowing Israel to continue where the harshest face of the
6:02
genocide has not allowed it to to do because the Palestinians
6:05
have not left. Now with the storms, with the
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with the freezing weather, without food, without shelter,
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Israel is opening the Rafa border, telling Palestinians you
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can go out, but you cannot come in again.
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So this is again, it's in line with the trajectory that has
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started in the 50s of Israel, encouraging what even that
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minister Bang Veer calls voluntary migration.
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There is nothing. Being voluntary is really one of
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the most sadistic and international international
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community backed forms of crimes that I've seen in my in my
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lifetime. But there isn't there some
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political progress? I mean, there is a process now
6:50
towards phase two, which is about creating a Palestinian
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committee with international supervision with Palestinians
7:00
involved. People are people are now
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starting to say it may actually have some representation from
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the Palestinian Authority, which was something that was said it
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they said it wouldn't have before.
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So this is the beginning once again, isn't it, of a
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Palestinian voice and Palestinian control over their
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own affairs? I mean, isn't there a hopeful
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way to look at progress as well? I don't want to sound like the
7:27
grumpy one who's never happy about anything because this is
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not the case. I'm just someone who knows the
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history. I mean, I've heard these
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arguments at the end of the first intifada when the peace
7:38
process started with the Oslo Accords.
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The Oslo Accords were saluted by everyone, including the
7:44
Palestinians, as a stepping or a building block of enduring
7:50
peace. Have you seen any day of that
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for of peace for the Palestinians?
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No, because the the World Peace has been used to distract people
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from what was going on the enduring occupation.
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And let me comment on the on the peace plan, which have been
8:04
quite together with other independent experts and human
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rights organizations have been quite critical of.
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And for me, it's very tough because now this this plan is
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incorporated in Aun Security Council resolution.
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So I'm really it's a dilemma because UN Security Council
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resolution is law, but this is a law that violate basic tenets of
8:27
international because you say, yeah, but there is a a
8:30
government, there is a transition force, yes.
8:32
And look at them. I mean, they are headed by and,
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and in basically the decision power is in the end of in the
8:40
hands of the United States States, which is the has been
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the most significant partners of Israel in the in the genocide.
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The Palestinians are brought in as as token as an act of
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tokenism. There is a violation of the
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International Court of Justice decision of July last year,
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which orders, and this is for me, the road map to peace.
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It orders Israel to withdraw the troops from the occupied, the
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entirety of the occupied Palestinian territory, Gaza, the
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West Bank and E Jerusalem. No mention of what's going on in
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the West Bank. And please let's try to talk
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about that later, but also to dismantle the colonies and to
9:17
stop using Palestinian resources.
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This had this been incorporated in the UN Security Council
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resolution, I've would have I would have been, but.
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Israeli withdrawal will come, won't it, If, if, if Phase 2 is
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implemented, there will be an international stabilisation
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force which will also severely curtail Israel's ability to
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continue mounting the strikes that it has been.
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I don't see that that peace plan, because that peace plan
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refers to demilitarization and the radicalization of the Gaza
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Strip and Hamas, whatever it is, whatever remains, but not of
9:53
Israel, which is the state which has killed and and injured
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nearly 200,000 people and left nearly 2 million to die.
10:04
What do you mean? Are you suggesting Israel should
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be demilitarized? What I'm saying, I'm saying I'm
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just say posing another question, why is the occupied
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Palestinian territory, which is unlawfully occupied by Israel is
10:18
to be demilitarized while there is no, no, this is something
10:24
imposed on the Palestinians, which are the oppressed occupied
10:27
people. But there is no conditionality
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imposed on the unlawful occupier which has committed crimes after
10:37
crimes. Israel has just killed.
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And these are the numbers that are are ascertained, 70,000
10:44
people and there are up to 150,000 who are injured with
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life enduring injuries, who I mean, I've seen bodies chopped
10:54
into pieces, Krishnan. And this is not something that
10:57
can be repaired. So the state which has
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devastated the Gaza Strip, which continues to commit violence day
11:05
in and day out against the Palestinians in including in the
11:08
West Bank, whereas no Hamas, there is no question and no
11:12
conditionality about the restraint of military force of
11:15
the state. Again, it's a very, it's a very
11:18
disproportionate. Plan, it is clearly a
11:22
disproportionate plan because it was it was won by military force
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ultimately. And, and, you know, in, in, I
11:29
suppose in the real world, we have to accept what we can take,
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don't we? Vishnan, there was a genocide.
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How how cynical it is to describe yes, there was military
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force, there was unlawful use of force.
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That doesn't mean by ongoing for the case this.
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Is not a situation in which outside world came in and said,
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right, break it up, we're going to sort out the future.
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This was effectively a military victory by Israel, aided by the
11:59
United States. And then the United States said
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stop now and enter a political process.
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It's more a victory of impunity and lawlessness than military
12:09
victory. There has been a huge, huge
12:12
resistance inside the occupied Palestinian.
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I mean inside occupied Gaza is true.
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But the question is, what are the Palestinians supposed to do?
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Do the Palestinians have the right to protect themselves, to
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defend themselves? Yes or no?
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According to the way the international community.
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Well, but according to international, This is why I say
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it's the success of lawlessness, not of military force.
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This is the, the, the, the, the recognition of might makes right
12:44
again, fine. But this is not where I mean,
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this is not what would lead to stable and enduring peace.
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This is going to lead more violence.
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Do you believe that you know, we we should as a international
12:58
community be engaging with the process or are you saying the
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process is corrupt? Yes, No, I should.
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The process should be premised upon respect for international
13:06
law. Because, you know, different
13:08
countries are engaging with it. The the Arab world has clearly
13:11
had some success in trying to shape what the the Board of
13:19
Peace will be. It looks like Tony Blair is not
13:22
going to be taking a leading role on the Board of peace, at
13:25
least at the moment. So again, in terms of trying to
13:30
trying to, I accept you think this is a terrible piece, but in
13:36
terms of trying to make progress, what do you think are
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the steps now that's. Should happen I I think well I'm
13:44
not optimistic because 191 members of the international
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community of the United Nations are bending backward in order
13:54
they're not to upset the United States and Israel with it.
13:58
So it's it's very difficult to enforce international law while
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one states the United States calls the shot and no one reacts
14:11
against it. If, if, if the Saudi Prince MBS
14:15
is on the Board of Peace, where? Where does that leave the
14:21
concept of international human? Rights.
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Why can't the Palestinians rule themselves?
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Is it that that foreign to us, the idea that these people in
14:32
2025 can be treated as an independent people rather than a
14:39
colonial entity? Because this plan re proposes an
14:44
anachronistic idea that the Palestinian, the Palestinians,
14:48
have to be handled by someone. So you don't believe this plan
14:50
would ever lead to self determination?
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No, I'm, I'm, I'm certain. I'm certain because there is.
14:57
Because if there was an interest in accompanying Palestinians, in
15:01
guaranteeing that the Palestinians enjoy their self
15:04
determination, and this is key. This is why I insist there would
15:08
be an adherence, A conformity with what the International
15:14
Court of Justice has already decided.
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The International Court of Justice.
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You remember, Sorry, let me do a, let me make open a
15:22
parentheses. Do you remember last time I was
15:24
here, we were discussing genocide and you were objecting
15:27
that International Court of Justice has not concluded that
15:30
there is genocide. And I was saying, yes, but this
15:32
doesn't matter because according to international law and the
15:35
Genocide Convention, as long as there is is a risk of genocide
15:39
or incitement to genocide, something that International
15:41
Court of Justice has recognized in January 2024, then the this
15:46
is when the obligation to prevent kicks in.
15:49
Now we are at the phase where the International Court of
15:54
Justice has already pronounced itself saying the occupation is
15:58
unlawful and member states cannot aid and assist
16:03
economically, financially, militarily, strategically,
16:06
politically. These states, So you see, the
16:10
starting point, should not be what is politically convenient
16:15
to the United States, accompanied or not, supported or
16:18
not by Arab states. It doesn't matter.
16:21
It doesn't matter. What matters is the realization
16:23
of the right of self determination of the Palestinian
16:26
people. And when they turn around to you
16:28
and say, well, OK, but the last time there was an election, they
16:30
voted for Hamas, and look where that got us.
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What's the answer? I don't think I think that this
16:37
is this is not correct. This is a brutal simplification
16:41
of matters because when and this is not to defend Hamas or anyone
16:46
is just let's again, let's put the Hamas aside because in this
16:50
part of the world the the word Hamas generates such an
16:55
emotional hysteria that doesn't allow to progress in the
16:58
discussion. But there there were no
17:04
elections until 2005. And back then the Israeli
17:10
occupation had been there for many decades, oppressing and
17:14
ruling through military rules, the Palestinian governing
17:17
through military rules, the Palestinians.
17:19
So why after the elections there was no acceptance of the vote?
17:25
This would not be the first time the international community
17:29
didn't agree with an election that opposition from the from
17:34
the Western world and Israel was strategic to breakthrough the
17:40
the Palestinian secular political component.
17:43
And in fact, there are even Israeli commentators and former
17:47
prime ministers who said that, in fact, Hamas has been used as
17:52
an excuse to divert the political attention, or rather
17:57
the attention from the peace process to a security response.
18:03
So Hamas has been a very convenient card that Israel has
18:07
pulled to maintain the occupation.
18:10
But also look at who the Israelis have voted.
18:14
You have someone who has Bengavir, Bengavir and Smoltrik.
18:19
But even I mean look at the Israeli society keeping in power
18:23
people who are wanted by the ICCI mean this is this is called
18:27
the self determination, right? So why the Palestinians
18:30
shouldn't be able to determine and service and elect whom they
18:33
want? Right.
18:34
But but if you if you try to hold an election this year, this
18:37
coming year, there aren't any political structures or parties
18:41
or campaign groups or philosophies that people can
18:45
unite around, are they? There's no there's no political
18:48
culture around which you can suddenly say, OK, have
18:51
democracy. Krishnama, what do you care?
18:53
I mean, why do you all of a sudden care for Palestinian
18:57
internal self determination? Can we just annoy our?
19:00
Business, you're saying why don't we let them determine
19:03
themselves? I'm not saying that this is
19:05
international law and this has been the case for over 100
19:09
years, but. If you say, if you say, OK,
19:11
let's deliver that instead of a long transitional peace plan,
19:14
which is what is currently being proposed.
19:17
Is it practical? It is better, it's legal.
19:20
This is the only legal path. And you see this is the.
19:23
Practicality matters, doesn't? It practicalities matter when a
19:27
legal argument are are are distorted in order to
19:31
accommodate political convenience.
19:33
No one cares about the governing abilities of the Palestinians.
19:39
No ones. Because no one cares about the
19:41
Palestinians for real. Otherwise wise, we wouldn't
19:44
leave 2 million people in the abominable conditions they are
19:48
today. But I mean, and this may sound
19:50
very cynical, but hasn't the last two years proven that for
19:55
most world governments, international law is not
19:58
supreme? That is not the most important
20:01
thing in their minds. They believe in real politic, in
20:06
workable solutions. And if that is not in line with
20:09
international law, well. To an extent I agree with you.
20:14
The last two years have proven that not all governments,
20:17
because excuse me, there are governments in the global
20:22
majority, otherwise known as the global S, that have called out
20:28
the genocide, that have started to cut ties with Israel,
20:31
economic, military and political ties.
20:33
So no. So let's reframe it.
20:35
The last two years have demonstrated that the majority,
20:39
not even the totality, otherwise we would visibilize states like
20:42
Slovenia and Spain. The majority of Western
20:45
governments, primarily yours and mine, are very fine with the
20:49
continuous thrashing of international law.
20:52
And at the same time, these two years have proven another thing
20:56
that you know what, 450 millions of Europeans are not fine with
21:00
it. And This is why they are
21:02
protesting. They are protesting the genocide
21:05
from universities to to working places and they've been
21:11
protesting for over one year now.
21:13
And the response of the so-called the liberal
21:16
democracies look at this countries is criminalizing
21:19
journalist, criminalizing activist or in Germany beating
21:23
up demonstrators day in and day out or in France preventing
21:30
academic conferences to take place.
21:33
So, you know, Gaza and Palestine today have put ourselves in
21:38
front of a mirror and are telling us who we are as
21:42
individuals, as societies. And frankly, look at the Gov
21:46
Again, before thinking of what the Palestinians would be ruled
21:50
by, look at the governments we have with who have been teaching
21:54
and preaching international law and human rights worldwide until
21:58
they they were put on a test. We should step out of this
22:03
colonial posture. And this is the other thing for
22:06
the first time, I mean, if there is one thing that this genocide
22:11
has LED us to that makes me be optimistic is the awakening.
22:17
For the first time there is a global awakening of what
22:20
genocide is. It didn't happen with the
22:22
genocide in Rwanda. It didn't happen with the
22:25
genocide and former Yugoslavia. This genocide has provoked a
22:31
global outcry and doesn't matter how how hard so-called the
22:36
liberal governments push on their citizens to to obey and
22:43
and look away people. People don't bend because they
22:46
see the humanity of the other in their own humanity sacrifice in
22:51
Gaza. And so maybe maybe things will
22:55
change also politically for us, because I want to live in a
22:57
system which, which is coherent, where international law is
23:01
respected for the Israelis, for the Palestinians, for myself
23:05
and, and, and for you. Is it that much to to ask in
23:09
2025, Krishnan? Well, I mean, you know, isn't
23:14
the trouble that you are then in a situation where you say, well,
23:20
the law should be supreme and, and it doesn't matter about
23:24
whether practicalities mean it's too difficult to deliver.
23:29
You get into a very purist position when there is actually
23:33
a process that you can engage with that you can try and make
23:36
better. You know are are you in danger
23:39
of making perfection the enemy of the good?
23:44
That's so scary. That's so scary.
23:47
Well, well, I mean, it's I suppose.
23:49
Maybe it is scary. Maybe it is scary but but but
23:52
maybe it's also the reality of where we are.
23:55
And Krishnan, if you, if someone breaks into your house, you call
24:04
the police and the police comes and and arrests you instead of
24:09
the aggressor, wouldn't be, wouldn't you be appalled and
24:15
call for others to react and to protect you and to help you?
24:18
This is the situation of the Palestinians.
24:21
This is the situation of the Palestinians.
24:22
And again, I'm not. I mean, for me, it's I, I have
24:25
no stake in this other than being a a human rights expert
24:30
who's been asked by the United Nations to look at what happens
24:33
in nuclear Palestinian territory at the worst possible moment in
24:37
history for the Palestinian people.
24:39
And I have been the near, I mean, the quasi eyewitness of a
24:44
genocide, documenting it day, day after day.
24:48
And so, no, I don't think that asking for the application of
24:51
basic rules of international law is purism.
24:55
Actually, it's pretty basic to preserve peace and stability.
24:59
But international law has been defied defied in Israel for 40
25:03
years. And maybe this is the end of it.
25:05
May this be the end of it, because Israel's propaganda
25:08
doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work anymore.
25:12
It keeps on you. What makes you?
25:13
Think this is the end of it given where we have ended.
25:16
Up, I said. Where where in your own analysis
25:19
we've ended up in a very pro Israeli peace process?
25:23
Yeah, because this is where government, this is because
25:25
governments are complicit. Say I documented the level of
25:31
political, military, financial, economic, diplomatic, strategic
25:38
support that 62 states to different extent grant Israel,
25:43
which is the reason why the genocide continues, on top of
25:48
the fact that there are so many businesses and entities, banks,
25:53
pension funds that are profiting from it.
25:56
Do do you think the the complicity that you have
25:59
analysed will ever be called to account and and if so, how?
26:04
If human rights lawyers did their job, Oh yes.
26:09
So give me an example. I mean you, you in your report,
26:11
you take Britain as an example. Yeah, Partly because of the the
26:15
flights that were made over Gaza by by military aircraft and the
26:21
information that was handed on to them.
26:24
How do you think that you and you describe that as complicity?
26:28
How can that ever be prosecuted? Through domestic courts or an
26:37
international court, everyone should respect the law and This
26:39
is why I think that governments or government official officials
26:43
in an ideal world will have to be accountable for what they
26:46
have done in supporting the genocide.
26:48
Look, would you have imagined a Nuremberg trial in 1935 or
26:56
193036? Probably not.
27:00
And then there was, and this was the first time that, for
27:02
example, industrialists, people involved in providing the the
27:08
tools, the chemicals that were used in the gas chambers by the
27:13
Nazis, they were brought to trial.
27:15
Would you have imagined one day to have standards applicable to
27:20
businesses and not so as to make make sure that they would comply
27:25
with international law? While the old argument was, oh,
27:28
only, only states have human rights obligations.
27:32
No, Everyone with an ounce of power is to respect
27:37
international law, including businesses and multinationals,
27:40
especially today where multinationals have more
27:42
leverage and power than sovereign states.
27:45
And are you using Nuremberg as an example of how it can take a
27:49
long time to bring international justice?
27:52
Or are you, as some people will suspect, also using it to
27:54
compare Israel to Nazi Germany? No, I'm not comparing Israel to
28:00
to the Nazis. I'm I'm comparing what happened
28:03
after the the Nazi fascist Holocaust.
28:07
There was they did the Nuremberg tribunals and then they were the
28:12
Tokyo tribunals. But today to what is to what
28:18
needs to happen Today, the reality is different.
28:21
We have an International Criminal Court which should we
28:25
can prosecute, which can prosecute, investigate and
28:27
prosecute individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity,
28:32
genocide and the crime of aggression.
28:35
That court is being impaired and attacked as we speak so as to
28:41
hamper justice. But still there are national
28:45
courts. And you know, as we speak, it's
28:47
not that everything is grim and sorry, it's not that everything
28:51
is dark In the UK. There have been some, some
28:56
positive developments in courts. There was an activist charged
29:00
with terrorism that was that was acquitted recently and and
29:06
again, This is why I say eventually justice my knock at
29:11
the door of those who have betrayed it, I.
29:14
Mean you say the ICC is under attack and it is with with key
29:19
people sanctioned by the United States.
29:21
You are also sanctioned now since our last conversation.
29:25
How? How has that affected your life?
29:28
Badly. Honestly, it has, because it has
29:31
affected me. Because while I do what I do as
29:36
a human rights expert who's really devoting making huge
29:42
sacrifices to serve the United Nations, at the same time I am
29:48
treated as a as a criminal by the United States.
29:52
I've been sanctioned, which means just for doing my job,
29:58
which is even a violation if I were an American citizen.
30:00
It's a violation of the 1st Amendment.
30:02
How does it impact? You it impacts, I mean, I
30:05
cannot, there is a travel ban, I cannot travel to the US even in
30:09
the exercise of my function. In fact, the last reports to the
30:13
General Assembly, well, I had to present it from South Africa
30:17
because I could and travel to the United States.
30:19
But also it has it imposes penalties on those who work with
30:27
me. Anyone who's an AUS person,
30:30
meaning a citizen, someone who works in the US, who has assets
30:34
in the USA, USA resident who engages with me can face jail up
30:41
to 20 years and the penalties up to $1 million.
30:48
It's huge. And the fact and this.
30:50
Has implications. You can't have banking or.
30:53
No, my bank account. I mean I've been living in the
30:55
USI gave birth in the US and I was planning to return to the
31:02
US. My daughter is an American
31:04
citizen. She's US educated.
31:07
She goes to the American school. Her dream is in a few years to
31:11
go and study in the US. She cannot because the moment
31:14
she steps into the US, if the sanctions are not lifted, she
31:18
will She will risk felony for having offered a present to her
31:24
Mama. Can you believe this?
31:26
And also the implications are felt by me as a European citizen
31:32
in Europe, but also in someone who lives in Tunisia because I
31:35
cannot open a bank account anywhere because it doesn't
31:39
matter where you are. When it comes to banking, we are
31:42
under U.S. law. Why through the SWIFT code?
31:46
The moment I do a financial transaction that requires the
31:51
SWIFT code, virtually everything that is that happens
31:56
internationally through international circuit, it's I
31:59
get banned, there is a red flag. And so the the sanctions on me
32:06
pose a risk on the banks that open me open a bank account for
32:11
me, there is to incur in secondary sanctions.
32:14
And This is why I have to travel with with with cash.
32:19
But it's extremely complicated because I cannot get paid for.
32:22
What I was saying, how are you paid?
32:24
I'm not being paid, I've not been paid, I've not received a
32:27
payment for for work that I do other than as a special
32:31
rapporteur since August this year.
32:35
Because you can't be. I cannot be paid.
32:37
Who's going to receive this money?
32:38
It's extremely complicated. Also because with the money
32:40
laundering legislation, God bless it, it's impossible to
32:44
transfer money. I've been offered the
32:45
opportunity to open a bank account at the Cayman Island.
32:48
I don't want to do that. I don't want to to to to recur
32:51
to these dodgy expedients. I want to be protected as a
32:56
European who has committed no crimes.
32:59
And the United Nations has called for the sanctions to be
33:01
lifted. Absolutely, Absolutely.
33:03
But how? How long can you?
33:04
Do you think you can carry on living like this?
33:07
It's in, it's a, it's again, because it's a, it's a
33:11
significant violation of the UN Charter of the privileges and
33:16
immunity of the United Nations that protect me as a UN expert.
33:22
These sanctions must be lifted. So I do expect, I do expect
33:25
member states to come back to census and to stand up with the
33:31
United States persuading it to lifted the sanctions also
33:35
because it's a very dangerous president.
33:37
Think of the chilling effect it's having on anyone who's
33:41
working in the, I mean not just in the UN, but on this issue.
33:46
Can can I ask you what, what you think the effect of your
33:49
speaking out has had on the status of UN special
33:55
rapporteurs? You know, obviously your
33:59
opponents say that you are biased, that you've taken a
34:04
side, that you are, you know that you're not a impartial
34:08
rapporteur. You are now sanctioned.
34:11
As a result, Israel bans you. You're on persona non grata.
34:15
Do you think there has been an effect on your position that
34:22
affects other people as well as you?
34:26
It might. It might because again, the
34:28
chilling effect is felt and there are people who are
34:32
extremely courageous and defiant and they don't care.
34:37
They say I'm, I'm not going to be silenced, which is also my
34:41
position. I mean, I could have, you know,
34:43
I could have accepted to step, to step down from these
34:49
voluntary position. I mean, voluntary in the sense
34:53
that it's not even paid and say, look, this is the end of it.
34:57
You lift the sanctions and I stop.
34:59
I stop what I'm doing. But I decided not to do because
35:02
again, it would be it would be even more more insulting to the
35:07
to what I'm trying to stand for and encourage others to do the
35:11
same. We cannot be silenced all we
35:13
cannot be fired all we cannot be sanctioned.
35:16
All This is why this is a call for action to protect the the
35:22
rule of law based system that we have.
35:25
So with so much sacrifice built. And one thing I want to tell you
35:32
is that they had the United States has sanctioned me because
35:38
it couldn't silence me. It couldn't silence the truth.
35:42
And this is the thing, over three years, I think that my
35:46
reports have contributed and my being so active, which is what
35:53
anyone else, any other predecessor I've had would have
35:56
done had they found themselves facing a genocide.
36:00
But this work has created a better understanding of the
36:04
systemic structural issues that do not allow Israelis and
36:08
Palestinians to live in peace together or side by side.
36:13
Despite your insistence that you will stick to the law, that you
36:16
will not be silenced, that that that history will catch up.
36:20
Challa. You know, right, right now we
36:24
are in a situation where the most powerful country in the
36:27
world, the United States, supports Israel in a peace
36:32
process. That's, you know, Israel is, is,
36:36
is relatively pleased with it feels it's, you know, there is
36:41
no, there's no process of accountability right now that's
36:44
going on when it comes to Netanyahu, What is the, what has
36:50
the world really learnt about how might and strength and and
36:59
military might can get you what you want?
37:05
Krishna the risk of sound over optimistic.
37:10
I I would say that it's not, it's not a given that this
37:16
brutal system will will win. Look at the look at the South
37:21
Africa experience very different but with significant
37:24
similarities. I mean, the South Africa
37:27
apartheid regime has, has been able to survive, not just
37:32
because of the violence that the white S Africans were using
37:36
against black South Africans, but because of the complicity of
37:39
so many Western governments till the very end of the of the
37:44
apartheid. And and if you speak to the
37:48
South Africans, they tell you that the last four years of the
37:52
apartheid regime were the fiercest people wouldn't we
37:56
couldn't couldn't even imagine a day, a day where they wouldn't
38:01
be Apartheid meaning entrenched in the law because of course,
38:05
uprooting apartheid and what it has been over centuries, like
38:11
the racial segregation, it's the last part of it.
38:15
But undoing the, the, the settler colonialism of 350 years
38:20
of settler colonialism, of course takes time, but it
38:23
started and people in South Africa in the last years of the
38:27
apartheid could not imagine that one day that would happen.
38:32
I don't think that we can predict how it's going to be
38:37
based on the brutality of the system today.
38:40
Because, for example, Western governments, those we have
38:44
mentioned are acting so fiercely and even to the to the risk of
38:49
shrinking fundamental freedoms who have been the pillars of
38:53
their respective democracies as a result of fear, because they
38:58
feel the pressure of their own constituencies and politics
39:02
might change and people who are now in government will lose and
39:07
might face justice. So it's not it's not one, but
39:12
it's I wouldn't call defeat as of yet.
39:15
And the people who stand for human rights and justice have
39:18
just to be, have just to persist, to keep on believing
39:25
that justice is something worth standing for, because eventually
39:31
it would. It's what's going to allow them
39:33
to be spared by the brutality as that we are seeing today
39:38
unleashed against the Palestinians and others who
39:41
stand in solidarity with them. Francesca Albanese, thank you
39:44
very much indeed. And that's it for this edition
39:46
of the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.