Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / Something to Say About Surrogacy

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Something to Say About Surrogacy · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to step
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heeart Radio. Okay, y'all,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: just at the very beginning of this episode. I'm sure
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: if you've read the title, you kind of already know,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: but I just want to give a heads up of
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: content warning here. I know when it comes to fertility, pregnancy,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and any of the such, this topic can get really
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: controversial as well as can be really sensitive. So if
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: you're not in a good place to talk about the
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: ins and outs of surgacy or the small bits of
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: surgacy that we are learning about, I guess you may
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: want to skip this one because, like I said, I know,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: when it comes to conversations about pregnancy or loss of pregnancy,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: it hurts. So go ahead and put this at the
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: very top, move on through, listen to the next one.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: It might be more fun. It might be going to
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: what you choose to bet. Yeah, you never know. With us,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: we know this. So when it comes to surrogacy in
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: the world of surrogates, I'm gonna be really honest. I
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: know very little about it. I will say the things
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: that I know. More So, when it comes to children
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: and having children, it pertains to adoption foster care, and
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: that's a whole other episode we're gonna talking about one
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: day because it's a lot of ins and out. There's
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of controversy coming out of that, which has
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: always been so, but there's more light on it today
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad to see it. But when it comes
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: to surregacy, I don't know much. And after having a
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: couple of conversations about the option of surgacy and the
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: details behind it, I became curious. Uh. I do know
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: some people and some friends who have either gone through
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: it or talking about it as an option, and I've
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: never really contemplated what that would look like, and so
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I got a little curious. I was like, any have
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: we talked about this? Because we need to talk about this,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: And because of that, you wanted to discuss some of
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: the conversations, statistics and even the controversy is surrounding the topic,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and there's a lot more than I thought. I guess
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I should have known because I'm not in that world.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: There's a lot And to put this at the top,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: the opinions and information of surgacy seems pretty heavily biased,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: to the point that a majority of the information is
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: trying to either persuade you to consider this as a
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: commercial option and we'll talk about that, or dissuade you
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: in order to promote adoption or preservation of heritage. And
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: we're not gonna talk too much about what that means,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it should put a red flag for
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: you just hearing that term heritage to me, And yeah,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I think again when it comes down to it, the
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: organization in itself, we don't really talk about the surrogacy agencies,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: but it seems to be a multibillion dollar thing as well,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: So keep that in the back of your head. Yeah. Yeah,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: just like you, Samantha, this was I was familiar with
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: the subject and as I told you, when I was younger,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I offer to potentially be a surrogate for a friend
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: of mine. I didn't go much beyond like we talked
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: about it, but I didn't get much beyond that. So
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: this is a lot of new information for me as well.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: And this option in being able to use a surrogate,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: whether commercially commercial surrogate or an altruistic surrogate, is fairly
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: new and in some states still considered illegal. And because
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: of this, the standards do vary from each state, which
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: seems fairly similar to that the standards of abortion not
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: just as morally objected to, though again it is still
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: somewhat morally judged, just not at the same level that
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: abortion is right. And so with that we are learning.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna go ahead and put this here where
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: we are learning with you. And just because we may
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: say a statement or let you know of a statistic
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: or an opinion, that doesn't mean that's our opinion necessarily.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: We're just trying to kind of even out what's being said,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: because again, this is the things that you get hit
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: with and as we've talked about before, where it comes
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: to stati sticks, when it comes to theories, a lot
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: of it is biased no matter what, and trying to
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: get down to the nitty gritty, very limited, very limited,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: And like I said, you have a lot of options
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: out there when you google it, but when you see
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: where it comes from, you're like, oh okay, m yeah yeah.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: And as always, if there are listeners out there that
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: can illuminate this topic, we would absolutely love to hear
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: from you. But what you just did, Savantha, felt very
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: much like when you start to watch a DVD and
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: there's that note that's like, please be aware the comments.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily reflect right, our opinions. It's kind of
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: like other people's twitters, like retweeted endorsement, same thing, same thing,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: the same thing. All right, So before we start, let's
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: do some definitions. So for surrogacy, as to find in
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Mirriam Webster, it is practice of serving as a surrogate mother.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: According to surrogate dot com, it is the practice by
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: which a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: baby in order to give it to someone who cannot
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: have children. And within those definitions are several types of surrogacy,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: including traditional. This type of surrogacy is when the curroguits
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: egg is used, which makes the surroguit the biological mother.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: There's gestational and this is when the circuit has no
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: biological link to the baby. And then there is commercial.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: This is referring to a surrogacy arrangement where the surrogate
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: is compensated for service beyond just the medical cost. And
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: this type is typically the most controversial correct um. And
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: then there's altruistic or I've also seen it as stated
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: as compassionate, and this is typically referring to when a
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: suraga as someone who is not compensated outside of the
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: medical cost, and it is usually someone that the family knows,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: like a friend or family member. Annie, I'm guessing if
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: you had gone, it would have been altruistic because it
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: was a friend that they knew. And even though this
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: term is kind of referring to the compassionate again or
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: altruistic meaning I'm doing it at the goodness of my
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: heart to help someone, that does not mean that those
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: who are compensated or commercial is not altruistic and its
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: meaning or the reason behind it. And a lot of
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: the articles that I've read for women who say why
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: I became a surrogate, UM, do say that I wanted
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: to help other women. So I do want to put
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: that as a caveat. We are not saying just because
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: it's commercial, but it's not from the goodness of the
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: one's heart. Yes, right there. Um. And then when we
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: talk about agency, we're talking about segacy agencies. Uh. This
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: is when a person goes through an agency or an
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: organization for their segacy needs and services, and that could
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: include things like matching and screening, counseling, support services, and
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: case management within and some of them I think also
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: do legal stuff because in different stays you have to
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: go through an adoption process to make it legal. So
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: lot of things, yes, a lot of things. And then
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: there's independent also known as private surrogacy, and this is
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: an arrangement made between the intended parent and surrogate without
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: the assistance from an agency. Then there's identified and this
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: is when the surrogate is already found before any services
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: our agencies are used. So oftentimes it's linked to altruistic
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: are compassionate surrogacy. So what does this process look like?
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: And we're not going to go into the ins and outs,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: although we probably should. I don't know any Have we
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: done an episode in vitual fertilization, you and I have not,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: past host I believe have, but I'm sure we could
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: revisit it because those kinds of things are changing all
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: the time all the time. Yes, reproductive technology has changed drastically,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: so for this process, in a gestational surgacy, the process
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: of in vitro fertilization or IVF is used. Again, gestational
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: is having to use someone else's egg, remember that, or
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: the into parents ex So I said, that's not the surrogates.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: So the embryo is created in the lab and will
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: be transferred to the saracus uterus. Again, there's no genetic
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: connection for the SAG and the embryo, and a week
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: after the embryo transfers, the doctor measures the pregnancy hormones
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: to see the progress of the procedure. And again it's
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: not uncommon for multiple transfers to take place before one
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: is actually successful, which is also why there's a higher
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: number of twins or multiple children in birds, because that's
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: kind of a pick and choose kind of thing for
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: invitual fertilization. But again, this is a very brief explanation
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: about what's going on. It's a whole procedure. I know this.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: There's hormones involved, there's weeks and days of doctor's appointment,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: all of that. But just kind of putting that out there,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: it was kind of like a short review. Yes, and
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: some of you have written in about this process and
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: we really really appreciate all of you taking the time.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: We do have some statistics, although finding statistics for surrogacy
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: is difficult, which is not that surprising since it's pretty
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: controversial still, which we are going to get into for sure. Um,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: but there are a few numbers we do know. According
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: to the CDC, between two percent or almost a thirty
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: one thousand of all assisted reproductive technology cycles are a
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: r T used to gestational surrogate, and the numbers more
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: than doubled in from from one percent to two point
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: five per cent. Yeah, I thought those numbers were interesting,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: especially because it still looks so low in comparison to
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I was not able to find anything past. So I
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: found that interesting because it's been what eight years, Yeah,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: it sure has, it sure has. There are some things
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: that you're like, certainly someone's been keeping traffices and then I,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: you know, shame on me every time, like nope, I
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: guess not, or they're not publishing them anyway. And within
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: these numbers there were at least eighteen thousand, four hundred
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: berths and random fact, yes, fifty three of those were twins.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Triplets are higher order multiples, and most of the carriers
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: were less than thirty five years old, as it is
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: more of a risk for later ages as you get older, right,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: and according to one article, the number of circuits have
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: decreased greatly This year. One agency reported that pre pandemic
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: way time for intended parents who the parents who are
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: trying to seek a surrogate was estimated from three to
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: four months, which changed to one to two months during
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: the actual quarantine or the pandemic times um and now
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: has changed to eight months or longer. One agency stated
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: that their numbers showed a sixty decrease of surrogates from
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: previous years. Also, there's a conversation about vaccinated versus not vaccinated,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: and it's a completely interesting conversation to the fact that,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: as they said, there's more likely that they want vaccinated surrogates,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: but the ones who are asking for non vaccinated have
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: a longer wait time because yeah, we are pro vacs here.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: So if you're very upset by that statement, you should
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: move on. But if I found that interesting as well
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: as the fact that they were trying to find reasons
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: as to why the decrease has happened. And many people
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: are talking about illnesses and just quarantine, taking time for
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: themselves or not wanting to come out to meet new people.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: And I've I've heard of people talking about how they
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: thought they had one and then things happened, whether illnesses
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: or deaths in the family, which we know is people
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: have been pretty rocked last year with a lot of deaths,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: so that's kind of possibly why these numbers have decreased
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: so vastly. Yeah, And I know for me and a
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: lot of friends, and I believe, including you Smitha, like I,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: there are things met clear I wanted to get done
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: that I just don't want to get done during a pandemic.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: So I just put off all of these things that
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: I keep thinking, like, hopefully it'll be done soon and
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: I can go fix this, so I can go check
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: this out, and it keeps going going take care of yourselves, everybody.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: So we also wanted to get into some of the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: legalities of surrogacy and surrogates, because when it comes to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: laws and regulations, there's a lot going on. There's a
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: lot to consider. In the US, the American Society for
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Reproductive Medicine requires surguates to be between the ages of
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: twenty one and forties three, to have had at least
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: one full term healthy pregnancy and delivery, but no more
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: than five. But it does go beyond just simple regulations.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: It's something that is defined and watched closely state by state.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: There's apparently no federal mandates to it. So I believe
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: even though we do have that regulation by the A
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: s r M. There's no actual at ural mandates, and
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about a specific Supreme Court case that
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: really didn't change much though it seems the biggest role
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: for federal level is to just not address it, and
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: that's what a lot of the articles said. There's like
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: we're just going to pretend like it's not here. However,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: internationally it has been addressed into, including the fact we've
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: been talking about India a little bit, who banned the
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: practice in But back to the States, a few states
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: have very strict laws, especially when it comes to commercial surgacies. Louisiana, Michigan,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: and Nebraska have very limited, if not completely outlawed, any
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: practice of compensated surregacy, and even goes as far as
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: banning named parents on birth certificates, so literally saying these
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: intended parents can't be on there. So I think we've
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: talked about this before, but when it comes to child
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: support birth certificates, there's a lot of like loose ends
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: and a lot of question marks when it comes to
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: legitimacy and parents and parentification. So this is one of
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: those big things that you really have to look into.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: So yeah, and it affects you if you're not biological.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: So if the father is using his own sperm to
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: impregnate the egg, then maybe he can actually sign off
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: because it is biologically genetically his, but the mother may
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: not be able to um. And there are some exceptions
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: for this, but most of those exceptions are for those
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: who are in heterosexual marriages, which is not surprising, and
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: that specifically Louisy, And it seems to be the most
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: strict that I've seen in the States, but I could
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: be wrong, because you know, I didn't click on every state.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: There is a website we can direct you too, because
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: they're very good at showing what's allowed and what's not.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: But I was like, wow, that is really specific. And
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: then those few states that have very strict statutes or
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: laws and have a lot of limitation when it comes
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: to segacy, And if you're considering UH segacy as an option,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: you may want to take a deeper look, especially if
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: you live in Arizona, Indiana, Idaho. New York, although they
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: have changed, they did, I believe allow for practice and
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: they definitely allow for ultra whist I UH surrogacy, But
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I think New York lifted their band that could be wrong. Uh, Tennessee, Virginia,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: and Wyoming are some of the more stricter practices, So
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: you might want to go and click and see what's
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: specifically happening in your area for sure. And one of
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: the big caveats and some of these laws and regulations
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: is the right of the surrogate themselves. Several states who
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: not enforce the contracts and so these agreements can be void,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: which can cause a lot of drama for people, as
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: in fact, a famous case referred to as Baby m
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Case when all the way up to the Supreme Court,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: and yes, had a big effect in the world of surrogacy.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: But we will get to that in a bit. And
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: because of these guidelines and different regulations, parental rights are
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: not necessarily guaranteed for surrogacy. Some states require one to
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: pass the adoption proceedings for legal custody are a quote
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: declaration of parentage before birth. Either way, many recommend hiring
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: reproductive right lawyers. There's planning out there apparently again. Wow,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: and from what I understood, there at least over a
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: hundred surgacy agencies, which is still a lot less than
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I expected, uh, to be honest, because they also work
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: internationally from what I understand, and seemingly a lot of
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: people who are looking for segacy will come to the
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: US to actually get the procedure done. So I found
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: that fascinating as it's still very limited here as well.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Um So let's talk about why people look at segacy
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: as an option. And it's not so unheard of for
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: families and individuals to start talking about all of their
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: options when it comes to children. And we've talked about
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: it previously, whether it's something we thought we would do
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: myself have children, you know, or still contemplating whether it's
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: something we want to do. Of course, as I get older,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: the decision feels like it's no longer a choice. Yeah,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: it's starting to get a little harder, and I'm starting
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to contemplate maybe I want to do something like this,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: even though again, adoption is something that is an option
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: that I would consider, but a lot of people don't.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: And again we've talked about the many implications and adoptions
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: and a little complications as well, so that might not
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: be something that they want. But let's talk about the why. Yes,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: let us talk about the why. So some of the
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: reasons include infertility and that's probably one of the biggest
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: for people who are looking at surrogacy as an option UM.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: And when we say infertility, we were talking about the
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: CDC definition, which is not being able to get pregnant
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: conceive after one year or longer of unprotected sex. And
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: if the person is aged thirty five or older, they
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: may consider treatment for infertility if they are unable to
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: get pregnant after six months of unprotected sex. And so
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: for my friend who we were discussing this with, this
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: is what she was struggling with and she was thinking
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: about options. And according to the CDC and very heteronormative language,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: this is fairly common. About ex percent of married women
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: ages fifteen to forty four are considered infertile, and about
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: twelve percent of women that same age have difficulty getting pregnant,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: are being able to carry full term or that's also
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: known as impaired fecundity, and then there are same sex couples.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: And of course one of the controversy comes from the
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: fact that the LGBTQ plus community continues to have to
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: fight for any rights whatsoever, and that includes being able
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: to have the family they dripped of UM and in
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: course includes being able to use a surrogacy as an option,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk a little bit more about it
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: in the controversial states, especially when it comes to gay men.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: And yeah, this is what we're mainly talking about when
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: we talk about gay men hiring a surrogate. Just that
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: option and using surrogates has gained some popularity, Yeah, a
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: lot of popularity with the gay community, but there continues
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: to be a lot of red tape that gay caubles
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: have to go through to be able to do so
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: in many of the states. Of course, this is just
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: as complicated as adoption, as many of the states have
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: decided to outlaw that as well. And uh, gay couples
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: from adopting and being able to have rights to children
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: to be able to be parents in general, which is
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: horrific to me and heartbreaking. Um, However, the statistics show
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: that number of you been using sergacy has gone ups
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: for those who are able to, and has gone upout
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: fifty pc from and yeah, there are nonprofits that help
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: gay men go through the process of surrogacy to be
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: able to have the family that they want. And because
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: infertility effects men as well, many organizations are looking to
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: ensure that men are able to be covered by insurance
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: for fertility treatment and testing, as some will often deny
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: those who are not in a heterosexual marriage. But that's
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: not all. They are also looking for a way of
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: getting affordable coverage for those who are seeking to start
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: their family, as the process can cost anywhere from one
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars, with the
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: commercial circuits being compensated anywhere from twenty two thousand to
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: twenty five tho dollars right, and those numbers the compensation
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: part for the surrogates are the U S numbers because
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: it's significant lower outside of the US, not surprisingly, but
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the the actual process for the agencies are about that price.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I did see one place is that maybe it's twenty
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: two thousand that it starts there. I don't know where
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: that is because in the US it's showing a hundred
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: thousand as the beginning price. So another reason for this
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: maybe aging or just singleness. So I put these into
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: one category because I think that a lot of women
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: could be both and or uh. And I will be
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: honest again, this is why I've been thinking about it
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: so much lately, not necessarily because I want children, but
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: because I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting to the
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: point that I can't, I won't be able to, or
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of complications, and do I
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: even want to go through there? And to be honest,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: my own past history that I know very little of
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: makes me worry that I'm not even able to anyway.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: But there has been that as well as the fact that, yeah,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: I also don't want to be married. So but I would,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: you know, in my mind, like I think i'd be
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: a good mom. Sometimes I think that sometimes I don't know,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: but I will hold you like, huh. But I would
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: like to be able to have that option. And so
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: maybe saving my eggs or freezing my eggs for now
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: and then having a seaga later on wouldn't be a
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: bad thing. So there definitely comes through my head. Uh,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: And that is also part of the reason some do
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: want to do this. They are talking about it. It's
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: just sex in the City episode by the way, Miranda
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: saves her eggs, freezes her eggs. Uh, they don't really
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: get saraga. But I still know what's interesting. But another
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: reason that they may choose segacy is past trauma alone
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: and whether we're talking about trauma as in like abusive
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: trauma from past or whether we're talking about PTSD from
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: previous pregnancies, like things like that. There's a lot of
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: conversations about this is not healthy for me, and it
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: triggers a lot of things, but I do want children,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: this may be the best route. And then there are
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: also physical problems. People who might not be able to
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: have children do too some type of physical issue. You
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: are overall complications with their health. That's another reason people
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: might want to seagate, right, And then sometimes it's because
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: they want to point blank and I know that one point,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I believe Kim Kardashian was heavily criticized because she did
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: use saragas and they're like, that's because she wants to
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: keep her figure blah blah blah blah blah, and wanted
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: through a lot of judgment, turns out that there was
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a whole different issue with like her placenta. I think
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I had detached at one point and that caused a
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: lot of complications. But it doesn't matter. Again, this is
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: one of those conversations like why why why and if
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: this is what they choose and it's legal and they're consenting.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I don't and it's above board, right, I don't understand,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: but yeah, people may just choose to go that route
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: point blank. And then so talking about Kim Kardashian and
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: we've talked about it a bit, it's just the overall
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: controversies that happened under the guise of surregacy and Sarah
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: get pregnancies so much so that many families, especially women,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: and there are several articles, are shamed for their decisions.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: So we'll try to keep it a secret, not acknowledge it,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: or try to move on. UM. And we talked about
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: it before, just a stigma of women not being able
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: to have or want children. UM, there's a judgment there,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: and we did a whole episode of like, oh, we're
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: failing as women because we don't want them or we
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: don't want them now or we don't have them now,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: either of those things. And again there's so seems to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: be many who freely give their opinions and judgments without
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: knowing what the individual is going through on their own UM.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: And just beyond having judge Mcjudgeson's that exists, there are
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: many who feel that this goes beyond that, as in like, oh,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: this goes against all of humanity. It's really bad. Well,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: one big controversy is that people believe this is a
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: tight rope of using women as just mirror birthing machines,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and that this can lead to taking advantage of those
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: who are economically disadvantaged. According to one study about the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: law created in India in eighteen which banned commercial surrogacy
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: in the country and also placed heavily restricted rules on
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: altruistic surrogacies quote. Some feminists also criticized the commodification of
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: women's reproductive body, turning women into disposable beings, living tools,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: or baby machines, and draw parallels of prostitution and slavery.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: So they believe that using surrogates, especially those who are
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: in dire need to do their circumstances, is something that's
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: leaning towards a level of slavery and disenfranchisement. And there
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: has been misconduct in the practice, so this is not
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: too far off when it comes to some organizations, as
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: there were no real regulations for the agencies or clinics,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: just overall guidelines um and in twenty twelve, of course,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: came out of women being confined to hostiles not properly
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: compensated and not being told of all the risks of
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: the procedure going through the pregnancy or having these babies,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: having babies, and in some cases that the surrogates had
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: no rights whatsoever. So, yeah, that is definitely leaning towards
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: the trafficking the alarmist. What are they doing They're not
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: being made aware and oftentimes they are. Yeah, they're taking
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: advantage of and the pay was so inconsistent that it
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: brought up a lot of red flags for the actual practice.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Of course, some would say, you know, no, but this
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: was helping the families. We actually you know, they're They
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: found a couple of women who were surrogates and they
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: were concerned when the band took place because it really
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: helped them during a dire time. So they had jobs
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: gotten fired, whether it's because of pandemic reasons or whatever.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: They were able to provide. One talked about how they
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: were able to build a house from that money. But
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the level of compensation was so vastly different for those
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: in India than those in the US. That obviously shows
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: a real disconnect and whether or not it is helping
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: or harming, right. And then there was a specific case
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: in when a couple abandoned one of the twins that
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: were born in India, which brought a spotlight on the
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: transnational surrogacy and some of the downfalls of that practice. Right.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Apparently one of the twins was born with a disability
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: and when they found that out, literally disobeyed in them
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: on the street and left. So it was really ugly. Yeah,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: and the growth of surrogates in Southeast Asia grew in
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: preven endemic years. But the controversy of transnational surrogacy and
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: this lack of regulations has been a focal point of
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: why many countries are banning the procedure. Right, I believe
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: there was a case in Cambodia in which they hadn't
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: It was like thirty two women where they found they
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: were being surrogates and that's against the law. Was completely banned,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: so they were threatened fifteen years like a lot of
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: years in jail, but instead took the plate to keep
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: the children and raised the children, and anybody who were
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: assisting got much less sentence, which I thought was funny
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: because they were the ones that facilitated all of this,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: So you would think if this was a nactual human
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: trafficking case, they were gotten the bigger sentence as the traffickers,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: you would hope. Yeah, and this was definitely one of
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: those traditional surrogacies where they was their egg and that's
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: believed they had to pay a pretty big fine, but
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: it was the national headlines where they were trafficking. So
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: again it kind of goes into like, oh, but okay,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I know what you're trying to say. But at the
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: same time, and is it shady yes, Like again when
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: it comes to when uh countries like the U s
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and and the couple was from the Australia, that dropped,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Like when you have those types of divide one using
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the other, you're like, yeah, there's a big disparaging level
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: here that it's like, uh yeah, this is not pretty,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: this is not cool. But yeah, that was an interesting
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: case that I did read. So Also, a big controversy
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: has been whether this practice is an affront to womanhood altogether.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: As a proposal to legalize surgacy in New York came around,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: many feminists, including Glorious Steinum, opposed legislation, arguing that quote
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: paid sexy turns women's bodies into commodities and it's cool
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: warsive to poor women. Given the sizeable payment it can bring. Yes,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: As the New York Times states in their article concerning
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: fertility and surrogacy quote, some critics contend that the quest
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: for fertility equality erases women and denies their essential biological role.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: And though many surrogate babies are born to straight couples,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: some opponents of surrogacy are uncomfortable with connecting the purchasing
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: power of men, especially gay men, to the bodies of women. Right,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: So this was specific to why they were saying that
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: it was biased against gay men these bands, and but yeah,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: that was pretty specific. They were trying to say that
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: this felt like they're taking away womanhood and we're gonna
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: talk about a bit. But it just seems homophobic as
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: well as the transphobic when you look at the bigger
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: charms of what womanhood. Yes, definitely and yeah, yeah, though
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: it is very reminiscent of those who make the transphobic
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: argument of biology. Some say that this is in reference
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: of pregnancy to womanhood. Professor Phillis Schessler, who wrote about
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: the surrogacy case of baby M, states, some people want
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: to do away with reality, but biology is real. Biology exists,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: and biology is what will get you pregnant. Yeah. Well
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: then speaking of baby UM. So the case of Baby
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: M which again we talked about just previously, was a
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: huge case that went to the Supreme Court in nineteen eight.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: So this was all before gestational, This is all traditional theracasy.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: So what happened in New Jersey in nineteen eighty five
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: a woman agreed through a contract to be traditional surrogate
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: to a couple named the Sterns. The wife of the
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: intended parents had multiple school roses and felt she would
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: not be able to endure the pregnancy like a lot
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: of physical limitations, and went through the surrogacy route. The
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: woman was compensated ten thousand dollars which would equate to
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: about twenty two dollars today to carry the pregnancy to
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: term and would relinquish parental rights to the Sterns. But
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: after giving birth, the woman changed her mind and gave
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: up the money to keep the child and then was
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: sued by the Sterns. Yes um, and in the lower
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: courts the Sterns won. However, in the Supreme Court the
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: decision was reversed. They invalidated the contract stating that it
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: was in quote affront to public policy and the intended
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: payment was quote illegal, perhaps criminal, and potentially degrading two women. However,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: custody was given to the Sterns under the premise that
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: it was in the child's best interests. But cases often
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: used as a reason commercial surgacy should not be legalized
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: the case for traditional surgacy and gestational surrogacy. Um, these
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: cases are often seen as completely different, right, which is
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: how it stated in much of the laws throughout the country.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I found that interesting because it's still reminiscent.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Like I found an article that was written in twenty
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: eighteen talking about it. And obviously, as we were talking
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: about the one reporter who had actually she was the
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: one that chronicled the whole event, miss Chessler, from this
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: case and kind of became known for it. So therefore
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: she her commentary later on was very important because she
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: was that you know, eye witness of that, and it
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: reverberated to the they're gonna it's almost like a lifetime movie.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: And I think it was a lifetime movie where the
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: woman was taking trying to take back the child, and
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: how it affected the young lady she was it was
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: a baby girl. So and some of the controversy comes
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: from the conservative standpoint of the heteronormative ideas of family,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: which could also again lean to the continued bait of
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: women's bodies and who has authority of it and you know,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: the lack of autonomy of it. And while researching the subject,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: there are many sites dedicated to the fact that segacy
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: again was just a slap in the face two families,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: traditional families, and to children's rights, and that surgacy quote
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: deliberately separated the child from the only mother that they
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: have ever known the moment they were born. So it's
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: kind of weird, Like what again, this makes me question
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: why many of the conservatives would suggest adoption as an
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: alternative for anything for abortion. You know, we hear this
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: a lot. If that's the case, if they arguing for that,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I'm like, this doesn't This doesn't a lie. This doesn't
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: a lie. I don't understand. I mean again, it definitely
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: feels very much like, Okay, we've made it so difficult
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: for women to have agency over their reproductive rates. They're
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: making money off of it. No, never, right, that's wrong.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: On top of this, there is also, yes, this constant
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: fear of human trafficking that's been a threat throughout what
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: we're talking about, and please know that it is considered
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: by these sites human trafficking even though it's legal. Seriously,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: agencies they're talking about, As you said, Samantha, that doesn't
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: mean there aren't issues, but they are legal circusy agencies.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I mean when we talk about human trafficking, we talked
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: about it so much with Bridget just how they're using
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: this almost as a caveat to so many things to
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: trigger a response and this is kind of on that
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: same lines again, so many shady practices, and this is
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: we're talking about human lives. I feel the same way
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: when it comes to adoption, that we need to regulate
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: and have this conversation and hold people accountable for sure,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: and just the limits that it can be abused. Absolutely
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: again I go for both of those things. But like
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: I said, when we have just constantly using these words
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: where it's like it doesn't mean when you think it
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: means anymore, Yeah, are you're just using it essentially. Another
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: reason these sites state for being against surrogacy is that
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: it has a negative impact on the children, even giving
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: specific accounts from children who were surrogates stating that they
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: felt like um their lives were negatively impacted. However, in
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: a study led by Susan Golembach, director of the Center
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: of Family Research at the University of Cambridge, there were
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: questions of adjustment problems at a younger age about age
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: seven four children born through surrogacy, but it also depended
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: on the openness of the birth with their children, and
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: that by age ten there were no differences in behavioral
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: adjustments with their children they were studying, is what they found.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: So I have not found many studies. I did find
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: a couple of studies about those who were surrogates and
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: that if that impacted the children, and apparently it really didn't. Again,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I feel like this could be set along the lines
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: of adoption as well, like if you're openly communicating what
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: this is and who why this is, that there were
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: less likely any real disruptions and adjustments and behaviors even
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: though people like but but it's the lying part that
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: often will affect young children, especially if they feel like
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: something that's been hidden and or that it is a stigma.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: So if you're ready at the in the butt, oftentimes
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: they can And even in the baby m case, the
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: young woman who was the baby there was in question
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: said that she was fine. It's quoted from two thousand
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: seven because apparently she does not care to be in
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the limelight, so we don't read much about her, which
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I don't blame her, but she stays, I love my
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: family when it comes to the Sterns, very much and
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: very happy to be with them. I'm very happy I
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: ended up with them, and I love them. They're my
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: best friends in the whole world. That's all I have
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: to say about it. So again there's different cases and
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: conversations about who is affected by what. Of course, we
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: know that these similar sites will also have a conversation
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: about how gpt Q parents affect children as well and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the upbringing up children. So I would take that all
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: with a little grain of salt, and again not a
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: lot of numbers out there. It's kind of funny to
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: me how sperm that it is really given seems to
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: have less stigma than the actual mothers going through this,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: and it is the mothers who are often judge more
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: so than the fathers in that family. Yeah, in both cases,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: like the surrogate and the mother. Yes, such, Yes, this
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: is all very very interesting and as we said at
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: the top, listeners, if you have any experience or knowledge
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: about any of this, please write to us. You can
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: email us at Stephanie and mom Stuff at ihart meia
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Thanks as always too, are super producer Christina. Thank you Christina,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: You the protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcast for
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,