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Lee Trevino, Al Downing, and the First All-Star Game · WGBB Sports Talk New York

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The views expressed in the following program.
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Do not necessarily represent those of the.
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Staff, management or owners of wgbb.
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Live from the WGBB studios in Merrick, New York, this is Sports Talk New York.
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Good evening and hello again, everybody.
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Welcome to Sports Talk New York on WGBB here in Merrick, Long Island, New York.
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Bill Donahue here with you on this, the 12th day of July, 2026.
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Just want to verify that, yes, it is the 12th day.
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Our engineer Brian Graves is with us as always, and I'm happy you're here with us wherever you might be tonight.
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We've got a special show for you tonight.
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Up first, we'll welcome in a true legend of the game of golf.
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The great Lee Trevino will join us up in the number two hole.
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Former Yankees and Dodger southpaw Al Downing will be with us.
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Up next is the great author Randall Sullivan.
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And we will discuss his new book on the very first all star game in 1933.
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It's pretty topical with the 2026 midsummer classic coming up on Tuesday, so that'll be a good discussion.
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Last but not least, we'll welcome in Dr.
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David Fletcher and we'll talk about the new documentary, My Father, Dick Allen, great film about the life of the legendary hall of Fame slugger Dick Allen.
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So we got a packed show tonight.
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Sit back, relax, enjoy some great sports chat on Sports Talk New York.
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You can catch up anytime.
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Well, our first guest, he's regarded as one of the greatest players in golf history, won six major championships and 29 PGA Tour events over the course of his career.
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He's one of only four players to twice win the US Open, the British Open and the PGA Championship.
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And he was inducted into the World Golf hall of fame in 1981.
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It's an honor to welcome to Sports Talk New York tonight Lee Trevino.
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Lee, good evening.
2:46
Hello, Bill.
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How are you doing?
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Listen, you, you need it.
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You need a five hour show because people are driving back from East Hampton right now and they're bumper to bumper.
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I can tell you, I can see it from here.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Oh, they're out there.
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I got to tell you a quick.
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Story about the traffic, though.
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The first.
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The first time I ever got into traffic, which it was really bad, was in 1965.
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I went to Houston.
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I had a 55 Chevy with no water in the radiator, and I'm bumper to bumper, and I had a punctured T.
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The guy says, how bad was the traffic?
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I said, I got out, fixed my tire, and I only lost two spots.
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Yeah.
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I said, when I come back.
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Yeah, I believe that.
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How are you, my man?
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How is old.
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How is old New York doing over there?
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I've been reading a lot about.
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We're all right, guys.
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I mean, it's kind of wet.
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Yeah, I've been reading a lot about it.
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Yeah, we're doing all right, Lee.
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Yeah, Hanging in there.
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I had a beautiful day today and pretty nice tonight, and we're looking at a week ahead.
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We got the All Star game in baseball coming up, so we're looking pretty good.
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How you doing down there?
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Oh, no, it's hot down here.
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It's hot down here.
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Yeah.
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This is why we have hot tamales and hot sauce and all that stuff here.
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It's on the ground, but we've only gotten to 100 once last week, but it's been hovering at 97, 98.
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The great thing about it is we've had some overcast every day, and I go to the course every morning.
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I leave after I take my puppy out and feed it and everything, and I leave and I go to the golf course, and I hit balls for two and a half hours, and then I don't play much anymore.
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Bill.
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At my age, it's not any fun to play anymore, so.
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But I do stay sharp.
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I'm ready to play and at any time.
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So I go and practice, and I go through the bag, you know, I hit every club in the bag.
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I hit bunkers.
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I hit a few chips and a few putts, and usually I'm back home by 10:30.
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Yeah.
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That's nice.
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About my life.
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I'll tell you what, this.
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This, this soccer, football has.
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Has caught my eye.
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Yeah, you know, me, too.
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A lot.
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A lot of people up here, Lee.
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Yeah.
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Did you watch the England Norway game?
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I've watched every one of them.
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Yeah, I've watched him.
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I.
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I don't know if there's any.
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Rules in this game.
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I mean, I would have liked to have played, man.
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They.
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They're hitting people and T and holding, and nobody's doing anything.
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You know, a lot of theatrics when they get hit.
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Right.
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A lot of theatrics.
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When a guy gets knocked down.
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Oh, man, it's like he's just been through heck in a handbasket.
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He's hurt more than you can imagine.
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And they just keep playing.
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Well, you know, I talked to George Lopez a couple of days ago, and he told me that there is a recruiter from Hollywood down there, and he's following the games because these guys are great actors.
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Yeah, they're great actors.
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That's true.
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Yeah.
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I don't know, Lee, how they went into overtime or they call it extra time in the England Norway game.
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I don't know when they stop it.
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I mean, they're still playing.
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Usually here we have sudden deaths.
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You score and that's it.
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They keep going.
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Yeah, they go 30 minutes and they have a hydration break after 15 minutes.
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Yeah.
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And.
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And then if they don't, if nobody scores again, then they have for the five point kickoff.
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So anyway, that was.
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Yeah, but it's, it's capturing.
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It's caught me.
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Yeah.
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You know, because.
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Because I'm.
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I'm down here in Texas and actually I'm.
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I'm.
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You know, the Hunts own Kansas City Chiefs, right.
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And, you know, they bought the rights to soccer in the US Many, many, many years ago.
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And I don't know whether you knew that or not.
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So they're, they're involved in soccer big.
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And it's, it's, it's made a big hit, but, you know, it just caught me.
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I, I can't.
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The first thing I look at when I get my paper in the morning, which I still take a newspaper simply because I don't get any news on my flip phone.
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See, my flip phone is still.
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I'm calling you on the landline.
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Nobody has a landline.
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Nobody even knows how to use it.
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You know, but I, I've been watching this game and they've.
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It's just been fantastic.
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I really like it.
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I really like.
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I like the way Massey plays.
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He doesn't do a damn thing.
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He just hangs out on the right side until somebody gets the ball over to him.
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You know, he doesn't do much through.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Who.
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Who are you going for to go all the way?
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Well, you know, this.
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They've got some.
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They got some, Some pretty good ones out there.
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Yeah.
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And I think, you know, the favorite naturally was Spain, if I'm not mistaken.
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And I think it's going to be Spain and Argentina.
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I don't know.
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I may be wrong, but I think it's Spain.
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Argentina is defending champs and they're very good.
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They're very good.
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They got to be the favorite.
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Yeah, I think they got to be the favorite with Massey and Span, but Spain and has.
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Has a pretty good team.
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Yeah, has a pretty good team.
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Well, you say we talk about some golf?
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Oh, my God, I love that game.
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Yeah, I love that game.
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You play it occasionally.
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Yeah, I know.
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Now, you.
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You had a real passion for the game, Lee.
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I know that golf gave you everything.
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You said once that if you put a bed in the tent on a driving range, you would sleep there, right?
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Oh, no, I never leave there.
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This is just crazy.
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If I tell you.
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If I tell you what, what regiment I followed once I got out of the Marine Corps.
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I got out of the Marine Corps at the age of 21.
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I went in at 17, and I was a machine gunner in the Pacific for four years.
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I didn't see any combat, but we trained pretty hard over there and.
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And we almost.
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We took a little trip towards, you know, we took toward Laos and stuff, but we didn't.
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We didn't hit the ground.
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We went on to the Philippines.
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But anyway, when I got out, I didn't even play golf.
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I actually went to work at a construction.
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On a construction crew on a golf course.
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I was welding the irrigation system on the back nine.
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That was an extension of the golf course.
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And I started playing and I started getting better and better and better and I practiced for.
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I went to work at a driving range after that in a par three course.
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And this is where I got my driver and my short game.
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And so probably two of the most important clubs in your bag, it's a short game in the driver, the putter, you can putt with all 14 clubs.
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You don't have to worry about that.
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Putter will come to you.
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You'll make some, you miss some.
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But I practiced.
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I couldn't get enough.
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And I didn't need daylight because I had lights on the range.
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And I stayed open until 11 at night.
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And I'd go to bed, I'd get up at 5, and I'd go across the street.
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I rented an apartment across the street from Tennyson park in Dallas, which was a public course.
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And I would tee off on 14 at 5 o' clock in the morning.
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And the mosquitoes would be absolutely eating me up.
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Oh, man.
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Yeah.
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Oh, yeah.
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And so I'd play 18 holes, and then when I finished, I would hit golf balls for a couple hours, take a shower and go to work.
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I had to go to work at 2, which was perfect.
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I'd work from 2 in the afternoon to 10 at night.
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And then I played golf seven days a week.
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And I entered my first tournament ever.
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I didn't play an amateur tournament or a pro tournament before that.
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And I entered my first tournament in Houston, Texas.
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That's where the story come from with the 55 Chevy.
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And I went down there to play at Sharpstown, and it was the first pro tournament I ever played.
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I didn't even know the rules, Bill.
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They just told me.
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They said, don't touch your ball and hold out.
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Don't worry about it.
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Just don't touch your ball.
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I said, okay.
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And I ended up winning the tournament in a playoff.
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Wow.
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And then I won the New Mexico Open about two weeks later, again, back to back.
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And to make a long story short, I qualified for the US Open in 67.
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I went to Balta Straw, New Jersey.
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Great golf course, New Jersey.
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And New York and Long island have some of the greatest golf courses I've ever seen.
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And I went to Balder Straw, Nicklaus won that tournament, and I finished fifth.
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And I got some invitations to play in other tournaments, and I had a Class A PGA card, and they owned the tour at the time.
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And if you.
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If you made the cut in the tournament, Bill, you'd automatically end the next weeks.
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Well, they invited me to play in Canada, and.
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And then I played in 67.
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I played right there in.
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In New York, and.
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And then I played in New Jersey.
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And to make a long story short up, I ended up making 13 cuts in a row, and I finished 47th on the money, which gave me an exemption for 68.
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And then I won the US Open in 68, which gave me a lifetime exemption.
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Right?
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Yeah, that's pretty good.
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That was a pretty good.
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That lifetime was pretty good ticket.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, that's.
11:57
That's pretty good.
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That is, absolutely.
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That's almost as much as Soto's making, you know, for the.
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For my lousy Mets.
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Yeah, I know.
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Yeah.
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What did he get?
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450?
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I don't know.
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But.
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No, he can hit, though.
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He can hit.
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Yeah, he can hit, but he dropped a fly ball two days ago right to him, Lee.
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And goes in his glove, which is the worst place the ball could go and drop.
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The only problem, Bill, is when you.
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Give somebody 450s, you don't have any.
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Money to get anybody else.
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No, that's it.
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He's got to be out there.
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Yeah.
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He's got to be all over the place out there.
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Yeah.
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He can't Play all nine positions, you know?
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Yeah.
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Oh, it's a mess.
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Yes.
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Who was the greatest you ever saw, Lee?
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Well, the greatest I ever played with, in my opinion, in other words, is the Goat.
12:52
Nicholas.
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Yeah.
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But I'll tell you what.
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Sam Snead is not too far behind him.
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Sam Sneed won what, 83, 80.
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83, 84 tournaments in his lifetime.
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He didn't win the Open.
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That's the only one he didn't win.
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And, you know, Arne won all the majors.
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He didn't win the pga.
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I didn't win the Masters.
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But I.
13:15
You know, the goat.
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You.
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You can't.
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You can't deny the fact that the goats won 18 majors.
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And he probably didn't even think in the beginning that they were going to measure us by that.
13:27
They measure us by how many majors we've won.
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That's the first thing people ask.
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If they don't know anything about golf or they don't know you, they'll say, okay, how many majors did you win?
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Yeah, and that's just what they want to know.
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They don't care about how many you wanted, Tucson or LA or whatever, but they want to know majors.
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And that's the thing.
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And Jack, you know.
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And, you know, I mean, Tiger's right there behind him.
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He's 150.
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And people always say.
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The people always say, you know, who was the greatest between them.
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It's very difficult, in other words, to define that.
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And the reason for it is because it's like a boxer.
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You can't put somebody else right now against Marciano and say, who was better here?
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Whatever, or Ali or whatever you had.
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I look at it this way, and I answer that question by saying, between Tiger and Jack, I think Jack was the best golfer.
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I don't think he had the shots, and I don't think he was the player that Tiger was.
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So when you come to.
14:32
When you come to the best player, it's Tiger.
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When you come to the best golfer, it's Jack.
14:37
Yeah.
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No question about it.
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Understood.
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Yeah.
14:41
We got the great Lee Trevino with us tonight on Sports Talk New York.
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Now, you said once that God gave you the tremendous talent, Lee.
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You didn't want to disappoint him.
14:52
If you did, you'd probably have to start caddying for Arnie, right?
14:57
That's right.
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And I wouldn't mind that.
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Yeah, that would be okay with me.
15:01
Yeah, I will.
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I will.
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I will caddy for Arnie if he comes back or I get up there.
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Yeah, he's got a Caddy.
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He doesn't have to hire anybody.
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Creamy.
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Creamy's out of a job.
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You know, Creamy's not going to be able to caddy for him.
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I'll take.
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I'll take his bag.
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I just.
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I loved him.
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I really did.
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I really.
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I think about him all the time.
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I played the last competitive round that he ever played in golf with him, and I played it at Augusta Pines in Houston.
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Actually, it's in Conroe there.
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And he and I were playing in the senior tournament, and I was trying to figure out when we finished what I was going to get.
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So when we got to the 18th hole, he had about a 15 foot par putt.
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And the caddy was holding the pin.
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And I went up and I shoved the caddy out of the way.
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I said, I got this flag.
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Get out of here.
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So I held the flag and he holed the putt.
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And I picked the ball out of the hole.
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And I asked him, as polite as I could, I said, Mr.
15:58
Palmer, I said, could I have this ball?
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He said, sure, you can have it.
16:02
And then when we went to the press conference, I had him sign it.
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And I have the last golf ball that Arnold Palmer ever hit in competition.
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Yeah.
16:11
Wow, that's amazing.
16:12
I want to ask you, though, Lee, how do you sign a golf ball?
16:16
I mean, you see guys signing baseballs all the time.
16:18
It's got to be hard to write on a golf ball.
16:21
Oh, no.
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Sharpie got it right.
16:24
Yeah, yeah.
16:25
Sharpie's got it right.
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Once you get a Sharpie that's worn a little bit.
16:28
Yeah.
16:29
It'll go right over the dimples with no problem.
16:32
Okay.
16:32
Yeah.
16:33
What's hard?
16:33
The golf ball's hard to sign with a pin.
16:36
Oh, yeah.
16:37
No, you can't do that.
16:38
Right.
16:39
But a Sharpie.
16:40
Yeah, the Sharpie is no problem.
16:42
Outstanding.
16:43
Now, and if you get a ball that's got a signature on it and you want to play with it, just.
16:48
Just put some hairspray on it.
16:49
It'll take the.
16:50
The Sharpie right off of it.
16:52
Oh, okay.
16:54
Just use hairspray.
16:55
Like if you get.
16:55
If you get a Sharpie on your pants or your shirt.
16:58
Yeah, yeah, just spray hairspray on it.
17:00
It'll take it right off.
17:01
There's.
17:01
There's some tips.
17:02
Now, can you imagine the chemicals that's in that hairspray that's going to take that off and you're using it every day.
17:07
Permanent pen.
17:08
Yeah.
17:08
It's a wonder you still have hair, right?
17:13
Yeah, yeah, the hairspray will take it Right off, huh?
17:15
Now.
17:16
Now talk a little bit more about your career in the Marines.
17:18
Like you said, you were a machine gunner in the Pacific.
17:22
But four years, that really seemed to straighten out your life, didn't it?
17:27
Well, yeah, I was, you know, the.
17:30
The one that straightened out my life more than anything was my third wife, to tell you the truth.
17:34
Claudia, Connecticut girl, and she was 18 years younger.
17:39
And, you know, we got married, and I knew her dad was a golf pro there at Wethersfield Country Club, and mom played golf.
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Two brothers she had, Fred and Pete, and they played golf also.
17:54
And every year that we'd go back there, I'd see her and see her.
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And then she graduated high school, went to college in Boston, and then we hooked up.
18:03
When she was 26 years old, I was divorced, and we hooked up.
18:07
And, you know, we'd known each other.
18:09
The family had known each other for a long time, and then we decided.
18:13
But she's the person that gave me some structure, Bill.
18:16
I never had structure.
18:18
I've actually been on my own since I was, like, 10 years old.
18:21
Yeah.
18:21
You know, nobody told me what to do, how to do it, what to do this and do that, and, you know, I'm just lucky.
18:28
You know, when I did a documentary, and the opening of it is on a.
18:32
They have a little drone way up in the sky with a camera, and I'm standing out by my pool, and I'm looking up at the drone, and I'm screaming at it.
18:40
I should be in prison or dead.
18:43
It's exactly how I started this documentary.
18:48
I should be in prison or dead.
18:50
Yeah, but.
18:51
But this.
18:52
This lady that I'm married to now for 40 years is.
18:56
Has been everything.
18:58
I mean, she's the one that.
19:00
And we had a couple.
19:01
We had a couple of kids.
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We had Olivia, gonna be 39.
19:04
Daniel's gonna be 34.
19:05
I have a granddaughter that's nine months old and have one on the way, a boy on the way.
19:10
Oh, congratulations.
19:12
Yeah.
19:12
Nice.
19:13
Yeah, the only.
19:14
The only good thing about that, to tell you the truth.
19:16
Well, it's not a good thing, but it's crazy is they won't let me hold them because they're afraid of my balance.
19:22
And then number two.
19:24
Yeah.
19:24
You know, they're not going to let me babysit because the hell, they can outrun me at 2.
19:30
I know that feeling.
19:31
Yeah, I hear you.
19:34
Yeah.
19:34
I'm having balance trouble myself, and I.
19:38
Work on it every day.
19:40
Yeah, you have to.
19:41
You really have to.
19:41
Well, I have.
19:42
I have two steel knees, too.
19:43
See?
19:44
Oh, yeah.
19:45
I only have one.
19:45
So you got me two of them.
19:47
Yeah.
19:49
Yeah.
19:49
Now, how did you develop your stroke, Lee?
19:52
You have something that some people call a fade.
19:55
Now, how did you develop the swing?
19:58
Well, I actually drew the ball when I first started.
20:00
I'd hook it.
20:01
I'd hook it.
20:01
I'd hook it.
20:02
And I could never figure out how to fade the ball.
20:05
And I was over in Fort Worth playing back in the beginning.
20:11
And when I was practicing there in Dallas, a friend of mine took me over to Fort Worth, and I got to see Mr.
20:16
Hogan hit balls from a distance.
20:19
And Mr.
20:19
Hogan was making the ball go out there and it fall to the right.
20:23
Go out there and fall to the right.
20:24
And I couldn't figure out how the hell he was doing this.
20:27
And I didn't have the guts to go up and ask him.
20:30
Because you didn't do that to Mr.
20:32
Hogan.
20:32
Mr.
20:33
Hogan.
20:33
You know, you left him alone.
20:35
So I came up with the idea of holding.
20:40
In other words, not releasing the club.
20:42
Holding on to the club and going left.
20:45
And that's what all these pros are doing now.
20:47
I might.
20:47
I actually did it.
20:48
I actually did it over 60 or 60 years ago.
20:52
I had the swing.
20:54
Watch how they play today.
20:56
They set the club at the top, and then they just turn to the left.
20:59
They don't hit the ball.
21:01
They just turn to the left, and the club picks the ball up and hits it.
21:04
You know, the big thing with the people that play golf and play poorly is simply they hit at it.
21:10
This is not a baseball.
21:11
They're not throwing this thing at you, right?
21:13
This thing is lying there by itself waiting for you to hit it.
21:17
And it's like a broom.
21:18
If you.
21:19
If you.
21:19
If you.
21:19
If you had a broom in your hand and you took it back and you sweep the floor.
21:23
You see what I'm saying?
21:24
And that's all you do.
21:25
And you go left.
21:26
You don't even have to stay, keep your head down or watch it.
21:30
But I started doing that simply because it was the only way that I could make the ball fall right.
21:37
And I had a strong grip.
21:39
We call it a Texas grip because the wind blows here.
21:42
We have very hard clay, so we hit down on the ball.
21:46
We have Bermuda.
21:48
A lot of people have never even seen that Bermuda grass.
21:50
Like when I went up there the first time, and you played off of bent and fescue.
21:54
I had never seen that.
21:56
And so I started holding onto it.
22:00
In other words, I'd have a strong grip, and then I wouldn't release the club, the butt of the club.
22:06
And my left hand led all the way until the ball's gone.
22:09
I never released the club.
22:11
That's one of the reasons that I wasn't a long hitter, is simply because I didn't release and I couldn't get as much speed.
22:19
I was at the mercy of how fast I could turn my body, in other words, to get speed.
22:26
And then, you know, that was it.
22:27
Now, after that, you know, I injured my back, and I had to learn to.
22:32
To release a little bit.
22:33
And instead of the fade, I hit it straight.
22:35
Straight ball will kill you.
22:37
Do you understand?
22:38
Because you can't.
22:39
If you make a mistake, it's double jeopardy.
22:41
If you're going straight at the hole and you.
22:44
And, and.
22:44
And you push it 30ft, you're going to be 30ft from the flag.
22:48
If you pull it 30ft, you're going to be 30ft from the flag.
22:51
If you fade the ball and you aim 40ft left and you fade it, and you fade it 20ft, you're going to be 20ft.
22:58
If you fade it 60ft, you're going to be twenty feet.
23:02
You see what I'm saying?
23:04
Yeah.
23:05
Plus, the hands, when you fade, you can only hold them open a very small degree.
23:11
If you rotate your hands, you can go 160, 180.
23:16
So how do you dictate that?
23:17
That's what's difficult.
23:19
Yeah.
23:19
Lee Trevino with us tonight on Sports Talk New York.
23:22
Before we go, Lee, I want to ask you about the two big courses out here on Long Island.
23:27
The Bethpage Black and Shinnecock Hills.
23:31
You've played those courses?
23:33
Well, you know, I can name you a couple others that are pretty good, too.
23:37
That national, you know, that national is pretty good, but this Shinnecock is just unbelievable.
23:45
Met Page.
23:46
I've never played.
23:47
I was there for the Ryder cup, and it was just absolutely magnificent.
23:51
The people of Long island are blessed to have a public course like that.
23:54
Yeah.
23:55
Go there and pay a green fee and play it.
23:58
And it was just absolutely flawless.
24:01
I mean, it's just you wouldn't want any.
24:03
Any other club to play.
24:05
You know, you pay your green fee and you play.
24:07
Yeah.
24:07
I mean, it was just wonderful what I saw there.
24:10
Shinnecock, I love it.
24:12
It's up on a hill.
24:13
The wind blows.
24:14
If you'll notice, they didn't have the best.
24:19
It took care of the players.
24:21
The players couldn't do much with it.
24:23
And the reason for it is because Shinnecock is on sand and it gets extremely hard.
24:30
And when fairways and greens get hard.
24:33
I don't care how good you are.
24:34
It's very difficult to hit fairways, especially if you're curving the ball.
24:38
If you're hitting a draw and hit it on a hard fairway, it's going to run in the rough on the left.
24:43
If you're hitting a big fade.
24:46
And.
24:47
You hit it in the fairway and it's too much of a fade, it's going to run in the rough on the right.
24:51
You see what I'm saying?
24:52
Yes.
24:53
So when they played Oakmont, they had wet fairways.
24:57
That makes.
24:58
Even though the Fairways were only 18 to 20 yards wide, if they're soft, they're actually 30 to 35 yards wide because the ball's not going to run in the rough.
25:07
You see what I'm saying?
25:08
Yes, sir.
25:08
So it's a.
25:09
It's a different cookie when that happens.
25:11
But, oh, man, that Shinnecock, you can't get enough of it.
25:15
I'm the one that started.
25:16
I'm the one that started that part three, which is a 12.
25:21
I'm the one that told everybody that that was the hardest part five I've ever played.
25:25
Wow.
25:26
And the guy says, it's a part three, isn't it?
25:28
I said, well, evidently you've never played it.
25:33
Right, huh?
25:35
That baby will eat your lunch, boy.
25:37
Because that wind.
25:38
That wind's coming over the hill, pushing down.
25:41
Oh, my God, you're short.
25:42
You're over you.
25:44
You know, that was it.
25:45
Yeah.
25:45
Yeah.
25:46
That's what we got out of it.
25:48
But you've got.
25:48
You've got some good ones.
25:49
You know, you got Friar's head, you got there.
25:52
Sabonik.
25:53
Sabonic is pretty difficult golf course.
25:55
Also, Jack.
25:56
Jack did a.
25:57
Did a job on.
25:59
You know, he's got a lot of roly poly greens and stuff.
26:02
The ladies played the Open there, and they had a pretty tough time with it.
26:06
Yeah.
26:07
Well, Lee, I'll tell you, it's been an honor and a pleasure having you with us.
26:10
I thank you for taking time out of your Sunday night to spend it with us here on Sports Talk New York.
26:17
I wish you all the best.
26:19
Best with the grandchildren.
26:23
Don't go out there and chase them around, because they'll beat you every time.
26:27
No, no, no, I'm gonna listen.
26:29
I'm gonna go back to the farm thing.
26:31
I'm getting a halter, and I'm putting it around their body with a rope.
26:36
That's all you tell.
26:37
You tell everybody in New York.
26:39
I love them.
26:39
That's my favorite spot, baby.
26:41
I love those people because I'm crazy and they are, too.
26:43
And I like that.
26:44
Yeah.
26:45
Thanks again, Lee, and hopefully we'll talk to you again.
26:50
Thank you for having me.
26:51
Bye.
26:51
That's the great Lee Trevino, ladies and gentlemen.
26:54
Up next on Sports Talk New York, we welcome in the former southpaw for the Yankees and the Dodgers, Al Downing.
27:02
Stick around, folks.
27:23
You're listening to Sports Talk New York.
27:26
Tune in every Sunday night at 8pm on Long Island's WGPP broadcast, broadcasting on 95.9 FM and 12:40am or listen live online at wgbbradio.com stay connected to sports Talk New York on WGBB by following us on Facebook, Twitter and
27:43
Instagram @WGBB.
27:46
Sports talk, you're listening to Sports Talk New York on Long Island's wgb.
27:55
And now back to the show, foreign.
28:04
Folks.
28:04
We're back with Sports Talk New York on WGB AM FM radio, live from beautiful downtown Merrick, Long Island, New York, usa, North America, planet Earth, Milky Way galaxy.
28:20
I hope everyone is well out there and enjoying the program tonight.
28:25
The Mets, very Metzian today.
28:28
Two nothing lead going to the ninth inning, blew it, lost three to two.
28:33
I won't go into the details because they're ugly.
28:36
They're ugly, folks.
28:38
I just talked to Lee Trevino about the World Cup.
28:42
Everybody seems to be following the World cup and getting excited about it.
28:46
I watched the England Norway game, followed by Argentina, Switzerland, Jude Bellingham, what a game he played for England.
28:56
Folks were singing hey Jude.
28:58
They really get into it, these fans, and it's contagious.
29:03
You really get into it with them.
29:05
So we will be following that and we'll talk about it a little further in the future.
29:09
But now we're going to move forward with our next guest.
29:12
He played in the major leagues for the Yankees, the A's, the brewers and the Dodgers.
29:17
Played from 61 to 77, a pretty good career.
29:22
He led the American League in strikeouts in 74.
29:26
He was an All Star in 67 and the National League's comeback player of the year in 1971, World Series champ, also with the Yankees in 61.
29:38
And some people will define this man's career by his association with really one of the most famous moments in the history of the sport.
29:47
And we want to talk to him about that tonight.
29:49
But right now I'd like to welcome to Sports Talk New York, Al Downing.
29:53
Al Good evening.
29:55
Very fine, Bill, thank you.
29:57
Good evening to you.
29:58
Good to have you with us, Al.
29:59
Now, I want to ask you, growing up In Jersey.
30:02
Who were your sports heroes in your teams as a kid?
30:05
Well, mainly the New York teams, the Giants and the Dodgers.
30:09
They were still around, right.
30:11
And they had players re identified with the Monty Irvin, Hank Thompson with the Giants, and of course Willie Mays over there with the Giants and then Jackie Robinson, Don Newcomb, Jim Gilliam, Roy Campanella.
30:28
So it was an easy choice to make.
30:31
Yeah, it sure was.
30:32
Baseball in New York back then, just a playground for kids and for adults as well.
30:40
Just a great atmosphere back in New York then.
30:43
Now, Al, you participated in the pal.
30:47
You attended Trenton Central High School, as we talked about on the phone the other day, at Muhlenberg College out in Allentown.
30:55
And you also played semi pro ball.
30:58
Well, prior to all that.
31:01
I'm glad you brought up the PAL programs and the Boys Club programs because really that was the genesis of everything in our community.
31:09
Because Little League was in infancy.
31:11
Babe Ruth was still called Little Bitty.
31:16
Are you there?
31:17
Yeah, I'm here, Al.
31:19
So there weren't a lot of programs that were around for communities.
31:23
So it had to come through the organization, such as the PAL for basketball and baseball and of course the local boys Club organization.
31:33
And that's where kids in my neighborhood and different schools.
31:38
We had five junior high schools in the city of Trenton, and kids from all those junior high schools could play in the PAL programs.
31:45
And we had two boys clubs in the whole city.
31:47
And that was the beginning of everything.
31:49
And you went out for those things and there was no restrictions.
31:52
You just had to pay a little insurance bill.
31:55
I think it was like $10 to play.
31:57
And you made lifelong friends out of those programs.
32:02
Yeah, sounds like you did, Al.
32:04
Sounds like a great opportunity for the kids out there in Jersey and Trenton.
32:09
Outstanding.
32:10
Now, you signed with the Yankees as an amateur free agent 1961, and you were on the big club by July of 61.
32:20
I was very fortunate, number one, because the first, what you call expansion in baseball came at the end of the 60 season.
32:31
And so you had four teams that came in existence.
32:34
The Houston Ball Club, there was the Mets and there was Washington, got a ball club and I forget the fourth to fourth team.
32:44
But you had these four ball clubs that came in that had to be stacked.
32:48
And the Angels came in.
32:51
The Angels, right.
32:52
So you had the four ball clubs and the Yanks and Dodgers, Cardinals, Pirates, they were known as the best organizations to be part of because they taught fundamentals.
33:04
And the Yanks were the only team left in New York.
33:10
The Dodgers and the Giants had moved to California So now the Yanks had to say, well, where are we going to find players?
33:16
And they started looking around.
33:17
And we had a lot of programs in Jersey, and fortunately there was no draft in those days, so you could sign as many players as 17, 18, 20 as you wanted.
33:29
And that's how I started.
33:30
And the reason I got to the big league so quickly is because teams such as the ones I mentioned aforementioned, they had an abundance of young talent, and the Yankees were one.
33:41
And they lost so much of that young talent.
33:44
They said we got to replenish our farm systems, and I was signed that way.
33:49
And the rest was history.
33:51
Talk a little bit about Al.
33:53
The excitement in 1961 brought about by the home run race between Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle.
34:03
What excitement and what thrills they brought to not only New York, but to baseball fans all across the country.
34:12
Well, New York needed something.
34:13
As I mentioned earlier, you lost to your premier teams.
34:16
You know, they're going.
34:18
And the Yanks were the favorite of a lot of people in New York, but not the majority of the people.
34:23
Remember, New York itself.
34:25
Manhattan was called 8 million people, and everybody was not a Yankee fan.
34:29
But the biggest thing was they had never seen anything like this chase of any of Babe Ruth's records.
34:37
And when I came up, actually, I came up July 6, I came up only because Whitey Ford had had some irritation in his elbow, and they needed a starting pitcher for a couple starts.
34:49
And that couple starts actually lasted right through the World Series.
34:53
But for a young kid just turning 20 years of age, his first baseball experience in professional sports, and all of a sudden, here I find myself with a ball club that's creating all kinds of records.
35:08
I mean, we were hitting home runs out of sight.
35:11
And in fact, that year I think we set the record as 240 home runs in the season.
35:17
But we had a ball club where you had players that complemented one another.
35:22
You had a good manager in Ralph Hauck.
35:24
They brought in a general manager, Roy Hame from the Philadelphia Phillies.
35:29
And you had a farm system, had great coaches.
35:32
And that cannot be overstated because the great coaches had really prepared a lot of young players in that system, in every system, to get to the major leagues.
35:42
So you went through the process of D, C, B, A, AA, Triple A baseball before you got to the major leagues.
35:48
And everybody was wondering why I got there so quickly.
35:52
It was because I played against such high competition as a kid.
35:56
And you mentioned the semi pro.
35:58
The last game I pitched as a semi pro was in Wichita, Kansas.
36:04
And Wichita, that name Was at that time was called the National Baseball Congress.
36:09
The two highest amateur baseball players systems at that time was the system of the NC2A in Omaha, which is still ongoing, and a National Baseball Congress in Wichita.
36:24
And believe it or not, my opposing picture was a fellow named Robert Leroy Satchel Page.
36:31
Oh, yeah.
36:32
And so that really opened the door for me.
36:35
Yeah.
36:36
Oh, the great Satchel Page.
36:38
There's a name for you kids to look up to Google and you'll find some wonderful things about Leroy Satchel Page.
36:46
We're talking to Al Downing tonight on Sports Talk New York.
36:50
Now, Al, your first full season, 63, 1351 loss record, 2.56 ERA.
37:00
Yankees go 105, 57.
37:03
But you guys were swept by LA in the 63 World Series.
37:08
You have some good recollection of that?
37:11
Well, I have great recollections.
37:13
Actually, I didn't come up until June of that year because I had joined in the Army Reserve program at the end of the 62 season and I didn't finish my basic training and advanced training until March.
37:25
So I missed the first two months of spring training.
37:28
And so I started my season again in Richmond and came up in June, the first week in June.
37:36
And my first start was in Washington D.C.
37:40
in Old Washington Stadium.
37:43
And my catcher, believe it or not, was Yogi.
37:48
And I pitched the shutout.
37:51
And you know, the next year Yogi became my manager.
37:56
But you know, people kind of look at the system from different eyes than the players do.
38:04
Yes, we were swept by the Dodgers that year in a four game World Series, but remember there were no playoffs in those years.
38:10
Right.
38:11
So whoever won American League or National League and there were 10 teams in, in each league, they went to the World Series.
38:18
And so we go to the World Series and we play the Dodgers.
38:21
And the teams I thought were very evenly matched with the exception that they had Drysdale and Koufax.
38:28
We didn't have Drysdale Koufax.
38:31
Exactly.
38:32
And that was the difference in that World Series.
38:35
Because if you look at the scores, the scores are not that large.
38:39
But I think it showed a lot of baseball people that you had to have more depth in your system in 24 man rosters.
38:49
And as a young kid, you don't, you're not aware of that, just collect the baseball cards and go from there.
38:55
But it showed me that not only that you needed a lot of superstars, you needed a lot of everyday ball players who could fill in maybe once.
39:04
A week, not every day, once a week.
39:07
Today we have guys playing every day who really are not everyday players.
39:11
And I think that kills a lot of the defense in the game.
39:14
But that's another issue.
39:16
That ball club to me was probably the most complete ball club I'd ever played on.
39:22
And the biggest thing was they were willing to accept me as a young kid just coming to the major leagues in 1961 and not saying we can win, we can't win with this kid 20 years of age.
39:34
Because if something near my maturity, perhaps from my background helped out and let me know that, keep your mouth shut, your eyes and ears open, and observe and you know, they accepted me.
39:48
And two years later I'm back in the major leagues.
39:51
Right.
39:51
And like you say, the rest is history.
39:54
August 11, 1967, does that date ring a bell to you alone?
39:58
Yes.
39:59
But let me back, back up another thing.
40:01
Yeah, sure.
40:02
He didn't leave the league in strikeouts in 74, it was 64.
40:05
64, did I say 74?
40:08
Yeah, yeah.
40:08
And another, another interesting event.
40:11
After the 63 season, Ralph Howe took over as general manager and Yogi became manager.
40:18
And Yogi's first statement was they asked him, well, what are you going to do about the pitching Yog?
40:22
He said, hell, can we lap down.
40:24
And you know, he won 13 in half a season last year.
40:26
He should win 26 this year.
40:28
Yeah.
40:30
Hey, wait a minute.
40:31
Yeah, he had you all set up already, Al.
40:34
Yeah, well, when you think about what we had as a ball club, there was a possibility.
40:40
But again, like I said, so many changes had taken place in that five year period between 60 and 64 that changed the whole context of what baseball became in America.
40:53
Right.
40:53
You're exactly right.
40:54
Now we were talking about 8-11-67.
41:00
What happened that day?
41:02
Well, I think it's a Friday evening game.
41:04
It might have been the first game of a doubleheader against the Cleveland Indians.
41:08
In those days, Cleveland, the Chicago White Sox, Detroit Tigers really were our biggest rivalries.
41:15
Everybody talks about the Red Sox.
41:17
The Red Sox were good, very good, don't get me wrong.
41:20
But those three ball clubs had the complete ball clubs, great pitching, great defense, and played us very tough.
41:28
Yeah.
41:28
And I pitched the first game of a doubleheader and I did something at the time I didn't think much about until years later.
41:36
The pitch, what they call the Immaculate Inning, where you strike out three players on nine pitches.
41:42
Yeah.
41:42
And surprisingly, folks, doesn't happen too often, but Al accomplished that that night in August and that was the first one, I believe, since 1964, that that was done in 67.
41:58
So pretty, pretty good.
42:01
Accomplishment.
42:02
Al Downing with us tonight on the program.
42:04
How did you feel about leaving the Yankees and going to kc?
42:09
Well, I didn't go to kc.
42:11
I went to Oakland.
42:11
Oakland?
42:12
They were in Oakland?
42:13
Yeah.
42:13
I'm having a rough night, Al.
42:15
Well, that's okay.
42:16
We all are.
42:17
They're talking about a West Nile mosquito out here now that scares the heck out of everybody.
42:24
If people forget that the late 60s was a time where the baseball players started talking about unionizing.
42:32
And we did.
42:33
We got Marvin Miller, who came over and became the head of the players union.
42:37
And a lot of teams became very conscious and I say suspicious of any players who had been around for seven, eight years who remember what the Players association was before Marvin Miller.
42:51
And they got Curt Flood to try to challenge the reserve clause, but they didn't set everything in a row.
43:00
The Ducks weren't all in a row and it didn't work out.
43:02
And so that didn't work out until 75.
43:05
But to leave New York at that time, it was my time because a lot of younger players had come along and, you know, guys who were ready to pitch in the major leagues and I was coming up on
43:16
29 years of age and they said, well, he's old, you got to get rid of him.
43:21
And it didn't bother me because you're too young to remember.
43:24
But in 66, the Cincinnati Reds made a similar decision.
43:31
They traded an outfielder, Frank Robinson.
43:33
Yeah, crown winner.
43:36
He was too old.
43:39
Yeah, I remember that, Al.
43:41
Yeah, exactly.
43:42
And yeah, the Orioles stole him from the Reds.
43:46
That's exactly right.
43:47
Well, they didn't really steal him because in return they got milk.
43:51
Pappas was an outstanding pitcher.
43:52
And especially to go with an organization that when we played Cincinnati in 61 in the world Series, their pitching staff was as strong as our pitching staff.
44:03
It's just that we had a far better, I thought, roster of players coming off the bench like Hector Lopez, Johnny Blanchard, guys who could come in and provide help when Mickey Mantle couldn't play beyond the first two games.
44:19
And so that was the difference.
44:20
Our 24 man roster was better than their 24 man roster.
44:24
So they didn't really steal Milk Pappas.
44:27
And remember, they also had guys coming up like David McNally, Chuck Dobson, guys who were coming along and guys.
44:36
Well, Coitar wasn't quite there yet.
44:38
He came from Houston.
44:40
He came from Houston.
44:41
Yes, those guys were there.
44:43
And the Orioles were known as a team that had an abundance of pitching.
44:47
And Paul Richards had put a lot of that together.
44:50
And when he did, you Know, they said, well, we can afford to get rid of somebody.
44:55
And Pappas was the guy, and he left and he went to Cincinnati.
44:59
But, I mean, you know, it was a different thing altogether.
45:04
Different time altogether.
45:05
Today everybody says the way they want to play with one franchise.
45:10
You know, Getting traded to Oakland was one of the greatest experiences of my career because I got out of New York, where I had been for 10 years almost, and I was playing with Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter, Burt
45:24
Campanera, Sal Vando, Joe Rudy and Blue Moon Odom.
45:30
Chuck Dobson was on our ball.
45:32
We had guys who were young, young guys, Dave Duncan, but these kids were hungry.
45:39
And that ball club I saw in 1970, in spring training, I said, this is a pretty good ball club.
45:44
You know, we had a guy, Gene.
45:45
Tennis was a backup catcher who was good, a catcher we've seen in baseball.
45:51
And that ball club is the member of the ball club for the next 72, 73, 74, won three consecutive World Series.
45:58
So, no, that was a great experience.
46:01
It was a great experience for me.
46:04
You're right about Milt Pappas, though, Al.
46:06
He had a solid career.
46:08
Pitched a no hitter, went on to the Cubs.
46:12
He did have a good career.
46:13
Milt Pappas.
46:14
Oh, yeah, yeah.
46:16
But those days, it was almost like, I guess the feeling was if you were trading, you must be over the hill.
46:23
Yeah.
46:24
And nobody remembered that Babe Ruth was traded, what, three times?
46:28
Yeah, yeah.
46:30
He had a decent career.
46:32
Yeah.
46:32
Did he not judge you, Bear, for a guy that ate a lot of hot dogs?
46:35
Exactly.
46:36
Yeah.
46:36
No, he made out all right.
46:38
Now.
46:38
He did all right.
46:39
We want to talk to you about number 715.
46:43
People remember you about that.
46:46
How do you view that, Al?
46:48
Do you view it as a positive thing, as a blight upon your career?
46:55
Talk a little bit about that night, April 8th, 1974.
46:59
Well, first off, you have to go back to 1961.
47:02
Okay.
47:03
Okay.
47:04
Who gave up the home run to Roger Mares?
47:07
That was Tracy Stallard.
47:09
Tracy Stallard, exactly.
47:11
He still pitched in the major leagues.
47:13
So it wasn't like all of a sudden you're.
47:14
You're no good because you gave up that home run.
47:17
And remember, you have to give caps off to guys who can do those things.
47:22
But with Henry Aaron, I had followed Henry Aaron's career since he had come into the major leagues in Milwaukee.
47:29
And then, of course, later on, they moved to Atlanta, and I knew what type of ball player and what type of hitter he was.
47:36
People don't know that there are very few hitters in the major leagues, I'd say the closest guy to Henry Aaron right now would be Ohtani, only because Ohtani hits a lot of home runs.
47:47
But Henry was a.333 40 hitter, right?
47:50
And a guy who could steal 30 or 40 bases because.
47:54
But in those days, stealing bases was not a priority.
47:58
And so when the time came for him to hit that home run, people said, oh, aren't you afraid?
48:03
I said, I'm not afraid of any batter who swings the bat.
48:06
You swing the bat, you're dangerous.
48:08
But this guy, he didn't miss too many pitches.
48:12
And when he swung, he made good contact.
48:15
And I thought I was chosen to pitch that game.
48:18
That was a Monday night game.
48:20
And the thing was that people.
48:24
And with the expansion, Atlanta was put in our division.
48:27
So Atlanta and Cincinnati became Western teams.
48:31
And so we played them 18 times a year.
48:33
So I had quite a bit against them.
48:36
Plus, they trained in West Palm beach, which is only 40 miles up the road from Fort Lauderdale.
48:44
And so we saw a lot of them in spring training.
48:47
And so.
48:47
But I knew what type of hitter he was, and I knew how I was going to try to approach pitching to him.
48:53
But then again, like I said, you know, would you say sometimes you're the hunter and sometimes you're the prey?
49:03
Yeah.
49:04
And I found out later he had researched me also, which a lot of hears.
49:11
I didn't say they don't do it.
49:14
They do it, but maybe they can't execute it like he could.
49:17
And that was the thing.
49:19
Like, I knew my work was cut out for me.
49:21
And, hey, you just go out and you do what you have to do, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
49:28
Right?
49:29
No shame in that.
49:30
Al, like we say, he hit a few more off a couple other guys, too.
49:36
Right.
49:37
So no shame in giving up a home run to Henry Aaron?
49:41
Well, no.
49:42
And Jack Billingham and I used to always laugh about it.
49:46
One day he says to me, zal, you know, I'm 7:13.
49:49
I said, what?
49:50
Yeah, I'm 7:14.
49:52
He says, I said, you're what?
49:55
Yeah, Oh, I got it.
49:57
Okay.
49:57
I'm 715.
50:00
Yeah.
50:01
No, like I said, no shame in that.
50:03
I want to regress a little bit.
50:05
Now you get traded to the Dodgers from the Milwaukee brewers, ironically, for another ex Yankee, Andy Costco.
50:17
Yes.
50:17
And you won 20 games, five shutouts.
50:22
Now, that was the year you won Comeback Player of the Year, and you actually finished third in the Cy Young voting behind Fergie Jenkins and Tom Seaver, who are both in the hall of Fame, yes.
50:37
They didn't even invite me to the hall of Fame.
50:39
Right.
50:39
Yeah,.
50:42
You're deserving.
50:43
We had and we had.
50:45
Listen, you forget about the other pitchers we had in the league.
50:48
Bob Gibson was in that league.
50:50
Steve Carl was in that league.
50:52
You know, we had guys.
50:54
Doc Ellis had a great season that year.
50:57
We had.
50:58
The league was stacked with players.
51:00
What an era.
51:01
What an era that was, Al.
51:04
Well, there were no pushovers.
51:06
No, you had a lot of three, two, four, three ball games, and you didn't see a lot of misplays in the field.
51:14
Because the one way you got to the major leagues if you're an everyday player is defense.
51:19
It wasn't offensive, it was defense.
51:21
Now, if you could catch the ball, throw the ball and hit the ball, then you could play.
51:25
But two of those three, you know, catch the ball and throw the ball were very, very important.
51:31
But, no, I was honored to be chosen third or voted third in the Cy Young voting.
51:40
But, I mean, I knew that I had a wonderful season.
51:42
I won 20 games, but also had great going to an organization that had been one of the backbones of the Major League Baseball.
51:50
And that same year, they had traded Duke Sims over there and also Dick Allen.
51:55
And so we were three guys who had come over there, and we were supposed to help this ball club while they were building these young kids.
52:03
They had gotten in the 68 draft.
52:05
And our catcher was going to be Tom Howard.
52:08
So we had an experienced cat, two experienced catchers, Dick Allen, who had been maligned very much in Philadelphia and St.
52:16
Louis.
52:17
And now he's going to be our first baseman, third baseman.
52:20
And, you know, we had a bunch of guys.
52:22
Manny Mota was going to be our third outfielder.
52:25
Willie Davis was our center fielder.
52:27
We had Jimmy LeFever.
52:29
Wes Parker.
52:30
Maury Wills was our shortstop.
52:32
Maury was our manager on the field.
52:35
So if anything happened on the field, say, for instance, a pitcher was throwing too many balls, something you don't see anymore.
52:42
And now, you know, guys go out there and throw 30 pitches before somebody comes up to them, talk to the guy.
52:47
But Maury would come to the mound and say, hey, hey, hey, slow down.
52:51
Take your time.
52:51
Take your time.
52:52
Just take your time, okay?
52:53
I'm giving you a breather.
52:55
That way they don't make a visit to the mound.
52:57
And then you knew if the pitching coach came out there, you know, the conversation had already become between the pitching coach managers and how you're going to progress.
53:05
But Maury would be the manager on the field, and he would Let everybody know, hey, say, shorten up on this guy in the outfield because he can't hit the ball to the warning track.
53:14
And they jam him a lot.
53:16
So we don't want to be beat on the Texas leaguer.
53:18
Little things that a manager on the bench doesn't see.
53:22
And so that kind of veteran leadership meant a lot.
53:26
Guys would go.
53:27
I noticed how guys would always go to Maury and say.
53:31
And say, hey, what do you think, Maury?
53:33
What do you think?
53:34
And he would say, okay, well, this is what I think we should try to do.
53:38
And we had two young players in that ball club who I thought were sure fire hall of Famers Bobby Valentine and Billy Buckner.
53:46
Oh, yeah, that was a great 68 draft that you mentioned.
53:49
Yeah.
53:50
Yes.
53:51
And Garvey was in that draft, and people didn't realize how good these guys were.
53:55
And one of the guys who was in that draft, actually was my roommate, Von Joshua.
54:02
We had all these guys.
54:03
I said, wow, look at all this talent.
54:05
Like, what are they going to do with it?
54:07
Because you can only have 25 guys on a ball club.
54:12
But the competition was great because guys knew they had to work their rear ends off to stay around.
54:19
So that's what helped me feel.
54:22
And we lost out on the last.
54:24
I guess, next to last day of the season, I guess we lost the game that kept us from winning the division.
54:31
But I think Houston might have won the division that year.
54:34
But it was a great experience to get over to the National League and start pitching in the National League.
54:40
We got a few minutes left.
54:42
Al Downing, I just want to ask you something.
54:45
I was thinking about Jim Bouton.
54:47
Ball four.
54:49
What did you think of that whole situation, we'll call it?
54:53
Well, actually, that all basically materialized after he had left the Yankees.
54:58
He was in Seattle, I think, when he had written that book.
55:01
But the genesis for the book came from his experiences in the Yankee organization.
55:06
Jim was always very resentful of the fact that he was like me.
55:11
He was a fellow who was, like, short of stature.
55:14
Today.
55:14
Neither one of us would have gotten drafted because we were too short.
55:19
If you look at the pitchers in the major league now, everybody's six, three, six, four.
55:23
But Jim had a good fastball and he had a good curveball, but he thought his best pitch was his knuckleball, and he wouldn't let him throw his knuckleball.
55:33
So a lot of things just kept materializing that he thought would have helped make him a better pitcher.
55:39
But he was the type of guy that, you know, he was going to battle you if he walked out on that mound.
55:45
And I still, I was talking to someone the other day about a game we had in Chicago in 64, and we had a Sunday doubleheader.
55:53
And in those days we flew a lot of charters.
55:56
And so he was pitching the first game, I was pitching the second game against the White Sox.
56:01
And, you know, we were going to get a plane back.
56:04
Our charter plane would be there about six o' clock to take us back to New York.
56:11
I think that game, the first game, started at 1 o'.
56:14
Clock.
56:15
Okay.
56:16
At 4 o' clock, we had completed the doubleheader.
56:19
Okay.
56:20
Yeah.
56:20
At 4 o'.
56:21
Clock.
56:23
The plane hadn't even gotten there yet.
56:26
Wow.
56:27
So people say, well, what was it like?
56:30
Well, you competed against the guy on your pitcher staff.
56:33
He pitched or shut out.
56:35
You wanted the pitcher shut out.
56:36
You know, you didn't want to be.
56:37
The guy that gave up three or four runs.
56:39
And it wasn't.
56:40
It was good, good, good, good competition.
56:42
There was nothing animosity about.
56:44
No animosity.
56:46
You played hard to win.
56:47
That's how you competed.
56:49
You weren't thinking about taking a guy's job.
56:51
You were thinking about helping your team.
56:52
Win another game or two.
56:53
Bottom line.
56:54
That's right.
56:54
Al Downing, it has been a pleasure.
56:58
I thank you for taking time out of your Sunday night to spend it with us here on Sports Talk New York.
57:04
All the best to you, Al.
57:05
Best of health.
57:06
Stay well and we hope to talk to you again.
57:10
Best of health to you, and I'm glad you're doing much better.
57:14
And I'm sure the people missed you on the air because you do a wonderful job out there in Merrick.
57:19
Merrick's one of the five cities, wasn't it?
57:22
No, that's the five Towns.
57:23
I know what you mean.
57:24
No.
57:25
Okay.
57:26
Well, anyhow, it's still a great area, a great area.
57:28
New.
57:29
A lot of people are from friends.
57:30
Made a lot of friends out there from my years in New York.
57:33
But you, you keep advising people and informing people what's going on, because you do a wonderful job of it.
57:39
All right, thank you, Al.
57:40
It's always nice talking with you.
57:42
And tell your.
57:43
The gentleman who called me, did he tell you I'd given you a nickname?
57:48
No, what's that?
57:49
He's laughing now.
57:52
Oh, I say, he's telling me now.
57:55
Yeah.
57:55
Cowboy Bill.
57:56
Yeah, Wild Bill.
57:58
Wild Bill.
57:59
Yeah.
57:59
That was it.
58:00
Yeah.
58:01
Well, that's a good one.
58:02
Yeah,.
58:04
That's better in a good way because you, you don't leave no stone unturned.
58:10
No, I don't now.
58:11
You're right.
58:12
Well, you, you take care.
58:14
Have a good night, Al.
58:15
Thank you.
58:15
The best to you.
58:16
That's Al Downing, ladies and gentlemen.
58:18
Well, we will be back with Randall Sullivan.
58:21
We'll talk about his new book on the very first All Star Game on this really the eve of the 2026 All Star break.
58:29
Stick around folks.
58:49
You're listening to sports talk new york on long island's wgb.
58:54
And now back to the joe.
59:02
All right folks, we are back.
59:03
We're back with Sports Talk New York on WGBB radio here in Merrick, Long Island, New York.
59:10
Well, as I said before, just another gut wrencher from the Mets and what has been a gut wrencher of the first half of the season.
59:18
It'll be interesting to see what happens at the trade deadline.
59:23
Mets obviously will be sellers.
59:25
Just a matter of who goes where and for what.
59:29
And I don't know if we have a lot to look forward to or not.
59:33
As for now, we have a break for the annual Midsummer Classic which leads us perfectly into our chat with our next guest to talk about the very first All Star Game.
59:43
I just want to know.
59:44
Something came across the wire.
59:47
The Mets draft pick.
59:48
I just want to talk about him quickly.
59:51
Let me get to messenger.
59:54
Round 14 pick number 420.
59:57
Zach Crotchfeldt is the kid's name and he must have had a tough time going through Life.
1:00:04
Left hand pitcher, six three two zero from out of Troy, New York.
1:00:10
The highest ranking number 325 by Baseball America.
1:00:14
And somebody thought I would be interested in that Zach Crotchfeld.
1:00:19
So we will.
1:00:21
Onward and upward folks, as they say.
1:00:24
We'll get to our next guest.
1:00:26
Hang on a second, folks.
1:00:28
I'm having trouble here.
1:00:32
Technology.
1:00:33
Here we go, our next guest.
1:00:36
He was a contributing editor to Rolling stone for over 20 years.
1:00:40
His work has appeared in Esquire, the Washington Post, among many other publications.
1:00:46
His latest book, folks, is titled the First All Star game.
1:00:50
Babe Ruth, FDR and America the Crossroads.
1:00:56
We welcome to Sports Talk New York tonight, Randall Sullivan.
1:01:00
Randall, good evening.
1:01:02
Hi there, Bill.
1:01:03
Thanks for having me.
1:01:04
Wonderful to have you aboard.
1:01:05
Randall, it's an honor and a pleasure.
1:01:08
I just want to fill you in on why I am really interested in the 1933 All Star Game.
1:01:14
Tony Cuccinello, as I might have mentioned to you, he lived on Beach Drive in Tampa during the final years of his life.
1:01:23
He lived across the street from Al Lopez.
1:01:26
Hall of Famer Al Lopez now, yeah,.
1:01:29
Of course I remember Al Lopez, yeah,.
1:01:31
As a memorabilia collector I went down to see Al Lopez and just as I was leaving Al's house, Tony Cuccinello pulls into his driveway.
1:01:43
So my dad and I go over and talk to Tony and just a real nice guy passed away a couple of years later after that.
1:01:52
But people may not know he played in the very first all star game in 1933 on July 6th.
1:02:00
He was a pinch hitter I believe.
1:02:02
In the ninth inning he pinch hit for Carl Hubbell and he was struck out by Lefty Grove.
1:02:10
It was the very, very last out of the game.
1:02:12
That's it, right.
1:02:13
He had the honor of concluding the first All Star.
1:02:16
That's Tony Cuccinello folks, a name for the ages and just my connection to the 33 all star game.
1:02:24
Now let's talk about that game in particular.
1:02:29
RANDALL Now Chicago was hosting the World's Fair at the time.
1:02:34
The mayor felt that they needed a sporting event to go along with it.
1:02:39
So he turns to the publisher of the Chicago Tribune for help and they come up with the concept of an All Star Game.
1:02:50
Why did they choose that and how did they arrive at that decision?
1:02:54
Randall?
1:02:56
Well, I mean it actually was initiated by an attempted assassination of Franklin Roosevelt.
1:03:01
At didn't succeed in killing Roosevelt, but it did kill the then mayor of Chicago.
1:03:09
The guy who actually ran the city of Chicago, who was a sewer contractor, appointed Edward Kelly as his new mayor.
1:03:16
But Kelly decided he wanted to make his own imprint on the city and the World's Fair.
1:03:20
So he came up with this idea of an athletic contest.
1:03:23
He wasn't thinking baseball game but he just, he was thinking maybe horse race or boxing match.
1:03:28
But he went to McCormick, the Tribune publisher and he said my SportsCenter is the best promoter in the country, let's bring him in.
1:03:35
So they called Archeward and he said no, it's got to be a baseball game between the best players in the American League and the best players in the National League which at the time was a novel concept.
1:03:46
Yeah, definitely.
1:03:49
Now this was all carried out.
1:03:52
Randall, as you bring out in the book, within the Spanish of really a couple of months.
1:03:58
Was there any sense at the time that this would continue?
1:04:03
That it would be more than just a one time game?
1:04:07
Not at all.
1:04:07
I mean everybody was sweating whether it was going to work at all.
1:04:10
It was in the deepest year of the Great Depression.
1:04:13
All parks were empty, people weren't buying tickets and the sponsors were very afraid that they wouldn't be able to sell the tickets for this game.
1:04:22
Actually it's Proved exactly wrong.
1:04:25
The country went crazy for this game, mainly because part or at least partly because the fans got to elect the players.
1:04:32
It was total fan vote, and that involved the whole country.
1:04:37
Every paper in the country printed ballots.
1:04:39
And so there was a real national.
1:04:42
That game probably got more advanced buildup than any sporting event in America up to that point.
1:04:47
That's pretty amazing.
1:04:48
Yeah, snapped up.
1:04:50
I mean, when the players arrived at the stadium that day, Comiskey park, they, you know, they were used to showing up for, you know, except going out for batting practice and seeing a handful of people in the stands.
1:05:03
They went out for batting practice, and every seat was filled, so they felt obligated to put on a show.
1:05:09
And they did.
1:05:10
Yeah.
1:05:11
Now tell us, Randall, how Comiskey park was chosen as the venue for this event.
1:05:19
Well, supposedly, officially, it was chosen by a coin flip over Wrigley.
1:05:25
But it was well known that Arch Ward was a White Sox fan.
1:05:29
Oh, there was a great deal of suspicion.
1:05:31
There is.
1:05:32
Yeah.
1:05:32
There you go about that.
1:05:34
But Comiskey had seats for 50,000, and Wrigley at that time seated 35,000.
1:05:40
So Arch Ward defended himself by saying, we'll sell a lot more tickets, raise a lot more money for charity.
1:05:46
You know, it's a good thing.
1:05:48
And Comiskey has got perfectly even dimensions, all of his reasons.
1:05:52
And so even though people never stop suspecting that he, you know, had chosen Comiskey and called it a coin flip, that was where the game was played.
1:06:03
Right now, newspapers ran articles on the front page about this game.
1:06:10
The publicity that it garnered was amazing.
1:06:13
And the organizers were absolutely floored by this.
1:06:18
Yeah, they were.
1:06:19
They were tremendously relieved.
1:06:21
The Tribune had had to agree that if there were any losses, they'd cover them.
1:06:25
That was one of the ways they got the major leagues to agree.
1:06:31
Archfort had to do a lot of politicking and arm twisting and even outright threatening to make the game happen.
1:06:38
But he also had to guarantee that his newspaper would cover the losses, if there were any.
1:06:43
But, in fact, the game made a substantial profit.
1:06:47
So, you know, it was a total success.
1:06:52
I mean, you know, until I started working on this book, I didn't fully appreciate the magnitude of Babe Ruth, just what an enormous figure he was in America at that time, you know, towering above any other sports figure.
1:07:06
So his appearance in the game was, you know, once he agreed to appear, I think everybody felt a lot more secure about it.
1:07:13
But the fans, you know, they were turning out to see all these other stars, but they wanted to see the Bay because You know, they knew for a lot of them, it would be the last chance.
1:07:21
He was in the waning years of his career.
1:07:24
He was fading.
1:07:26
And so there was tremendous enthusiasm for seeing if he would rise to the occasion as he had so many times before.
1:07:35
We will get to the babe, Randall.
1:07:37
Don't worry.
1:07:38
We got some space reserved for the Bambino.
1:07:42
The great Randall Sullivan is with us tonight talking about his book on the 1933 All Star Game, which was the first one in history.
1:07:52
Now, what I wanted to ask, Randall, was in Chicago, did any of the local, let's call them colorful characters that were denizens of the Chicago world or underworld, let's put it bluntly, get involved in this particular game?
1:08:14
Well, no, they didn't.
1:08:15
And it was a really fortuitous moment for Chicago.
1:08:20
Al Capone had just been sent away, escorted by Elliot Ness, to a federal prison in Atlanta.
1:08:28
His replacement, Frank Nitty, had nearly been killed on what in court was revealed to be orders from the then mayor Cermak, who hightailed it to Miami and had reporters waiting anxiously to ask him about it.
1:08:43
But he got shot in Miami and died there.
1:08:46
Those questions never went asked, but Nitty was in the hospital.
1:08:51
The guy that Cermak was trying to promote was soon found, you know, shot in the head on the lake, you know, on the.
1:09:00
Near Lake Michigan in Indiana.
1:09:03
And Bugs Moran decided it was a good time to flee to Florida.
1:09:08
So basically all of the top gangsters were either dead in the hospital or in prison or, you know, hiding out in Florida.
1:09:16
So things were pretty quiet on that front.
1:09:18
Pretty clean.
1:09:19
Yeah, that.
1:09:20
That seems to be the case, Randall, definitely.
1:09:23
Now, the book focuses on, obviously, the first All Star Game.
1:09:29
How did the second one come about?
1:09:31
And how did the All Star Game proliferate to becoming an annual event?
1:09:37
Well, at the winter meetings after the 33 game, the owners all looked at each other and said, this was a big success.
1:09:44
The fans loved it.
1:09:47
Let's do one more and see what happens.
1:09:49
They agreed to do the 1934 All Star Game, which, as it turned out, was the big event, was the momentous performance of Carl Hubble, who struck out five hall of Famers in a row.
1:10:05
And that thrilled the country.
1:10:07
In those days, an event like that swept across.
1:10:10
There was only newspapers, really, and radio to get information from.
1:10:15
And so that was an event that sort of, you know, magnetized the entire country.
1:10:21
And so the enthusiasm for the All Star Game was pretty rabid at that point.
1:10:27
And the fans loved the idea that they could see the.
1:10:30
The best Players in the two leagues, you know, compete against each other because they rarely got the chance.
1:10:36
Interleague play, of course, has changed that, and it's really taken a lot out of the.
1:10:41
Of the All Star.
1:10:41
The shine.
1:10:42
Yeah, you're exactly right, Randall.
1:10:45
Yeah, the interleague play kind of takes the shine off the All Star Game today.
1:10:51
Now, the appetite for the game.
1:10:57
In.
1:10:58
No way captivates people like that first one did anything comparable today that does hold sway the way that first game did?
1:11:12
No, I don't think so.
1:11:13
And it's because nothing has ever been what baseball was in the 1920s and 1930s, even in the first three decades, four decades of the five decades, really, of the 20th century.
1:11:25
I mean, it was the game, it was the national game.
1:11:28
It was beer than football and basketball combined and multiplied by 10.
1:11:33
So people were invested in that game as if it was sort of, you know, part of the essential fiber of the country.
1:11:41
And I don't think anything can match that because there's, you know, there's.
1:11:45
There's no, there is not and probably never will be a game that is so essential to America as baseball was in those times.
1:11:54
Randall Sullivan's with us tonight on Sports Talk New York, talking about the very first all star game in 1933.
1:12:02
Now, people, you folks may not have thought of this parallel, but obviously, as we spoke, the first All Star Game was sort of like the centerpiece of the World's Fair in Chicago that year.
1:12:18
And if you think about it, the All Star Game is in Philadelphia this year, which you could really make a parallel to the 250th anniversary of America, the bicentennial.
1:12:32
It's not bicentennial.
1:12:34
I can't think of the word that.
1:12:38
It's a complicated quintennial,.
1:12:41
Susquehanna Centennial, something like that.
1:12:45
I'm absolutely certain that Major League Baseball knew that when they chose Philadelphia.
1:12:49
You know, that's the side of the game this year that, you know, I mean, the city where the country was invented would be the place to play a game on an anniversary like this.
1:13:00
You see, I wouldn't have thought about it if it wasn't brought out that the parallel between Philadelphia and Chicago with those two different events.
1:13:14
Didn't really think of it at the time.
1:13:17
But one thing I was fascinated in the book was the logistics of the game, Randall.
1:13:25
The rosters were formed, obviously, we spoke about by a fan vote for the first one.
1:13:32
That still happens today.
1:13:35
That's only since the 70s that they came back with that, though, and they wanted one player from each team that happens today and that, again, took a respite for a while and did not happen that way.
1:13:51
How true is the modern All Star Game to that first one back in 33?
1:13:57
Oh, boy, that's a tough question.
1:13:59
I mean, you know, I mean, you know, in many ways, for a lot of people, and me included, one of the best things about baseball is that it honors its traditions, that, you know, it is the same game.
1:14:10
And you can.
1:14:12
You can make an honest comparison of performance, you know, from years ago to now.
1:14:20
But, you know, like I said, baseball will never be.
1:14:23
I mean, baseball is still, you know, an important part of American culture, but it's not as central to American culture as it once was.
1:14:32
You know, there are other games.
1:14:34
Really, there was only that game.
1:14:36
I mean, boxing was the only thing, or horse racing were the only two things that were even remotely comparable in terms of getting attention and drawing crowds.
1:14:47
So it's a tough comparison in that regard.
1:14:50
But, you know, it's still.
1:14:52
I think all the players still consider it an honor.
1:14:56
I don't know if it's not the same as it was, though.
1:14:58
I mean, these guys were, you know, they weren't being paid remotely even by comparison to the average person, what players get today.
1:15:07
So they were much more integrated into the society.
1:15:10
These were guys who, you know, had to work.
1:15:13
A lot of them had to work jobs in the off season, and when they retired, they had.
1:15:17
They had to work.
1:15:17
They had to find a job and go to work and live in neighborhoods with people who once been their fans.
1:15:23
So they were.
1:15:25
People felt much closer to them in that sense.
1:15:28
And.
1:15:31
But, you know, the game is still the game.
1:15:33
I mean, you know, they're still thrown from 60ft, 6 inches.
1:15:36
And, you know, that.
1:15:38
That confrontation between the pitcher and batter is still the single most dramatic thing that happens in sports.
1:15:45
I think you're right.
1:15:46
Now, one thing that stands out to me, Randall, is the players in both of the games.
1:15:55
I remember when I was a kid back in the 60s and 70s, what a magnificent era that was for baseball.
1:16:04
So many hall of Famers and just immortals that stood on the foul lines being introduced, say, at the 68 game in the Astrodome or the 69 game at RFK in Washington, D.C.
1:16:23
but what a bunch of guys.
1:16:26
And I don't think that happens today.
1:16:28
I mean, I believe that a lot of people don't know, and that includes me.
1:16:34
They don't know some of these guys that are in the All Star team.
1:16:37
And back then, I don't think that would ever happen.
1:16:42
Well, you know, the reserve clause, which was not great, obviously for the players in many respects was good for the fans in that it kept players with one team.
1:16:53
So people could really, you know, could really commit to a team or roster and, you know, count on that player or this group of players being with the team season after season, which I think helped people get much
1:17:07
more invested and much more attached to the players, were more familiar, you know, people cared about them more.
1:17:13
Now it's, you know, everybody jumps, you know, when they can.
1:17:18
I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's an open market and players can command huge sums.
1:17:24
And I think that that alone kind of separates them from the fans.
1:17:29
But I mean, you know, I don't know if it's, you know, I don't know the players today as well.
1:17:36
I know some of them, I mean, of course you get, I mean, some players rise to the level of Shohei Ohtani.
1:17:42
I mean, everybody.
1:17:43
Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's dramatic to see him come to the plate, you know, or, and, and, and lots of other players.
1:17:52
Right.
1:17:54
But, you know, and new players have always emerged, you know, but I don't, I don't think there's the same level of personal attachment to the players that there was in those days.
1:18:06
I mean, they had to come up with the Home Run Derby to enhance the whole situation.
1:18:11
I mean, if you look at some of the events preceding the game, it's kind of ridiculous.
1:18:17
But that's a discussion for another day.
1:18:20
As we spoke about earlier, Randall Babe Ruth, now, the role that he played in shaping this game and probably enhancing the situation to bring back another game, starring role in that first All Star Game, presumably Ohtani this year
1:18:46
in the game, people compare that to the Babe, but to me, there's no comparison.
1:18:54
You know, there's no comparison the Babe in anyone in history of sports.
1:18:59
People often, when I say that, people will say, well, what about Michael Jordan?
1:19:03
My answer to that is, my answer to that is that in 1925, the Babe was out with illness, missed much of the season, and attendance in American League games dropped by 34%.
1:19:15
If Michael Jordan was out with an injury, NBA, you know, attendance wouldn't drop by 3.4%.
1:19:22
No, that was how enormous he was.
1:19:25
And so, I mean, you know, bear in mind the country was in, you know, it had been admired in a three and a half year, steep decline.
1:19:34
Everything was teetering.
1:19:35
I mean, it was really a world where people weren't sure the United States was going to survive.
1:19:39
You know, the experiment may have failed, but people really wanted the day to rise to this moment.
1:19:47
He was fat and almost 40 and wasn't getting around well in the outfield and was a little slower at the plate, too, but still, he was the baby.
1:19:56
The other players, the National League players, said the most exciting thing about them was that they were going to be on the same field with Babe Ruth, but have him show up.
1:20:05
It's the first home run in the history of the All Star Game, and then seal the victory with a spectacular catch in the outfield, absolutely thrilled the fans and was the main focus of coverage after the game.
1:20:19
On the great stage that this particular game produced.
1:20:24
Randall, to have the Babe hit the first home run in All Star Game history.
1:20:31
Quite fitting and just an amazing performance.
1:20:36
And as you say, he ended the game with a superb defensive play.
1:20:42
Many comparisons between Babe Ruth and Shohei Ohtani, but from a celebrity standpoint, I mean, Ohtani's popular.
1:20:53
He has the endorsement deals, which, of course, the Babe didn't have the opportunity to take advantage of.
1:21:02
But just in American culture, there's no way that Ohtani could compare or surpass the celebrity of Babe Ruth.
1:21:15
No.
1:21:16
And, you know, even in performance, I'm not saying that Ohtani won't get there, but, you know, look at the numbers.
1:21:25
I mean, wins above replacement is, however imperfect it may be, is generally considered the best measure we have of a player's excellence.
1:21:33
The three top four seasons in the history of the major leagues are Babe ruth.
1:21:39
He has six of the top 13, and he would probably have had eight of the top 13, except for a season where he was out suspended and another where he was out six.
1:21:49
There's no other.
1:21:50
I mean, there's a handful of players, you know, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Barry bonds, who have two of the top 24.
1:21:59
But Dave Ruth has six of the top 13 and would have had eight.
1:22:04
Yes.
1:22:04
The highest lifetime war by far.
1:22:08
Twice the highest.
1:22:10
Twice as high as the highest war of any active player.
1:22:13
High esteem might crowd at the moment.
1:22:16
So.
1:22:16
Right.
1:22:16
You know, it's not just the legend of Babe Ruth.
1:22:19
It's what he did on the field.
1:22:22
And people have to remember, Randall, as you bring out in the book, that the backdrop to the 1933 World's Fair at the time, dark clouds gathering over Europe.
1:22:36
Hitler comes into power in Germany, Mussolini comes into power in Italy.
1:22:43
As people strolled the fairgrounds, Italian warplanes flew overhead, and of course, the German delegation quite magnanimously sent a zeppelin over the city.
1:22:58
Emblazoned with a swastika.
1:23:00
I mean, they sent the grass Nepalin with a swastika to come in low and basically throw the entire midway into shadow.
1:23:09
Amazing.
1:23:10
And this was just weeks after they sent the first prisoners undesirables to the Dachau concentration camp.
1:23:19
Sweet.
1:23:20
Yeah.
1:23:20
Just now a small detail, Randall, as we leave the National League.
1:23:29
And it was brought back recently, the National League all wore National League uniforms.
1:23:35
The American League prefer to go with their own particular uniforms.
1:23:42
Anything significant there?
1:23:45
Any factor contributing to that?
1:23:49
Well, I think it did something to sort of.
1:23:52
It made the two sides clear, the fan right in the six.
1:23:56
But it also, you know, the importance of these two leagues, you know, being opposed to each other.
1:24:01
And in those days, they really did want to, you know, prove who was best.
1:24:07
I mean, Connie, Mac decided he changed.
1:24:11
He'd overrule the fan vote at start.
1:24:13
We wanted to vote for the American League because he wanted.
1:24:17
He told the players, because we want to win this game.
1:24:19
We want to prove that.
1:24:20
You know, they try to call us the junior circuit, you know, we're going to show them, you know, who's on top.
1:24:26
Yeah.
1:24:28
So, I mean, and that's one of the things that's been lost in early play.
1:24:32
The competition between the two leagues just isn't the same.
1:24:37
No.
1:24:38
As the book brings out, it sort of loses the.
1:24:42
Its luster.
1:24:43
The All Star Game, because of interleague play.
1:24:45
Well, Randall Sullivan, it's been a pleasure.
1:24:48
I thank you for taking time out of your Sunday night to spend it with us here in New York.
1:24:53
The book, folks, again is titled the First all star.
1:24:58
Babe Ruth, FDR and America the Crossroads.
1:25:02
Available at Barnes and Noble, Amazon, anywhere that you'll be appearing, doing any publicity, Randall?
1:25:11
Well, I've already done the publicity in the run up to this, so I have a feeling everything climaxes this week with the game.
1:25:20
Yeah.
1:25:20
And any particular appearance to do with the All Star Game.
1:25:26
That might have been a good opportunity to head to Philadelphia and sell some books.
1:25:32
Well, yeah.
1:25:33
Well, I was hoping.
1:25:35
There was a whisper that I was going to get an invite, but it never came, so.
1:25:39
Those bastards.
1:25:41
Yeah.
1:25:42
Well, once again, thanks, Randall, and we hope to talk to you again down the road.
1:25:48
Thanks, Bill.
1:25:49
You take care.
1:25:50
That's Randall Sullivan, ladies and gentlemen.
1:25:52
Up next on Sports talk New York, Dr.
1:25:55
David Fletcher.
1:25:56
And a discussion on one of the premier power hitters of our time.
1:26:01
Well, really, my time, not your time, Dick Allen.
1:26:05
So stick around, folks.
1:26:21
You're listening to sports talk new york.
1:26:24
Tune in every Sunday night at 8pm on long island's wgpp, broadcasting on 95 and 12:40am or listen live online at wgb radio.com stay connected to sports talk new york on wgbb by following us on facebook, twitter and instagram
1:26:42
at wgbb sports talk.
1:26:47
You're listening to sports talk new york on long island's wgpb.
1:26:52
And now back to the show.
1:27:01
All right, folks, welcome back.
1:27:02
For from our final break of the evening, Sports Talk New York.
1:27:08
WGBB is where you are at.
1:27:10
Beautiful summertime Sunday evening here on Long Island.
1:27:14
It was really a perfect summer day.
1:27:17
Low humidity, sun, high clouds.
1:27:21
I hope things are the same where you are tonight.
1:27:24
Hope things are going well.
1:27:26
Just wanted to mention that we were going to have with us tonight the great basketball hall of Famer Spencer Haywood to talk a little Knicks basketball.
1:27:37
I know he was involved with the parade and really attended a lot of the games down the stretch that led to the NBA championship.
1:27:46
Unfortunately, Spencer's brother passed away a few days ago and he had family business to take care of.
1:27:54
And we wish Spencer peace at this time, trying time for him and his family.
1:28:02
And all the best to you, Spencer Haywood.
1:28:05
Well, our next guest, Dr.
1:28:08
David J.
1:28:09
Fletcher.
1:28:10
He's a physician, army veteran and a nationally respected baseball historian.
1:28:15
He graduated from Glen Bard west high school in 1972, grew up inspired by Dick Allen's impact on both Chicago and the game of baseball itself.
1:28:26
In addition to managing his occupational medical practice, Safe Works, Illinois, Dr.
1:28:33
Fletcher has been a passionate advocate for baseball justice.
1:28:39
David is also co producer of what we're going to speak about tonight, the new documentary My Father, Dick Allen, which is, as we said, the subject of tonight's discussion.
1:28:51
Welcome to Sports Talk New York tonight, Dr.
1:28:55
David Fletcher.
1:28:56
Good evening, David.
1:28:58
Good evening, Bill.
1:28:59
Thank you for having me on tonight.
1:29:01
Wonderful to have you with us.
1:29:02
David.
1:29:03
Now, I just want to ask, to preface our discussion, who were your teams and sports heroes when you were a kid?
1:29:13
Well, I was a suburban kid in Chicago, and the suburban kids, unlike people in the city, used to like both teams.
1:29:20
You know, I grew up both the White Sox and the Cubs fan and, you know, a little bit like the New York situation.
1:29:27
And so if you're a baseball fan, you had the best of both worlds.
1:29:30
You could see every every team.
1:29:33
All.
1:29:34
Summer and occasionally the Cubs and stocks would be over the same time and you could have a fabulous day of baseball.
1:29:41
One day there was three games and really enjoy it.
1:29:44
So I always love both teams, always have and still do.
1:29:47
People say it's impossible, but it's not okay.
1:29:51
Yes, I disagree.
1:29:52
In New York anyway, if you say that.
1:29:57
Well, I root for both.
1:29:58
I think that that's.
1:29:59
You know what?
1:30:02
That's not possible.
1:30:04
You either like them or you or you don't, but that's just the way I feel.
1:30:09
But I want to ask you, David, the project about Dick Allen, my father, Dick Allen, who made this come to fruition?
1:30:19
Whose brainchild was this?
1:30:21
Tell us that.
1:30:23
Well, I was a huge fan of Dick's growing up in the western suburbs.
1:30:29
And he basically was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan in Chicago.
1:30:34
He saved the American League charter team from leaving Chicago.
1:30:39
And just tremendous impact of his 1972 season was one for the ages.
1:30:46
And he was on the COVID of Sports Illustrated, cigarette in his mouth, juggling baseball.
1:30:50
And it was just a different time.
1:30:53
And I've had that cover up in my bedroom ever since then.
1:30:58
It's still up my bedroom wall in 2026.
1:31:02
And so I wanted to give him his due that he never got coming back to Chicago.
1:31:08
And I contacted him.
1:31:10
Took me a while to get a hold of him.
1:31:12
And it was after 2011.
1:31:15
He wasn't even on the hall of fame ballot in 2011.
1:31:20
And I had just finished working on the Ron Santo election and was able to help get him into the hall of Fame that year.
1:31:28
So I decided Dick was next.
1:31:29
And so I ended up putting together a tribute for him to come back to the White Sox in 2012 and brought him back and a lot of his teammates, including Goose Gossage, to come back.
1:31:41
And that was the first time I actually got to meet him and became very close to him and his family the rest of his life until he died in 2020.
1:31:50
Nice.
1:31:50
Yeah.
1:31:52
Just speaking to somebody today about how it's real unfortunate that Dick never got to see the dream of the hall of Fame come true while he was still with us.
1:32:04
Just a shame.
1:32:05
Happens to so many, though, happened to Santo.
1:32:10
It's a real shame.
1:32:11
But that's the way the politics of the hall of Fame works.
1:32:14
Now, seen through the eyes of Richard Jr.
1:32:20
Is this documentary right, David?
1:32:23
That's correct.
1:32:24
So I met Richard Jr.
1:32:26
When he came to Chicago as a fad for the tribute, and that was when I started working on his hall of Fame campaign to get him back on the ballot the next go around for the Golden Era ballot.
1:32:37
Got him back on the ballot because of the visibility we got in Chicago in 2012.
1:32:43
And he was on the ballot in San Diego.
1:32:47
He lost by one vote.
1:32:48
You know, I was sitting next to Richard I talked to Dick several times that morning.
1:32:53
He was down in Tampa waiting for the vote.
1:32:55
He was ready to come to San Diego if he'd gotten elected.
1:33:00
And it was heartbreaking.
1:33:02
And to tell him that he lost by a whisker, which is a horse racing team.
1:33:07
Dick was a huge horse racing fan.
1:33:09
And so that was really bad.
1:33:11
As Dick was alive, he never once wanted to campaign.
1:33:15
He felt that his numbers spoke for themselves.
1:33:18
He knew what he did on the field and he didn't need to, you know, promote himself.
1:33:24
That's really what you're talking about when we say the man behind the legend isn't that David?
1:33:32
That's right.
1:33:32
I mean, he was a very complex human being.
1:33:35
He was very proud.
1:33:38
He was also a very forgiving man.
1:33:41
For me, the real person was much better than a fictionalized hero version of him, and especially just how forgiving he was.
1:33:49
Him and Frank Thomas, who got in a fight in 1965 in Philadelphia, had made up.
1:33:55
They become friends later in life.
1:33:57
Most people don't know that he was an ex met.
1:33:59
And I think that really shows how much forgiveness that Dick had in his heart.
1:34:05
And just he knew what he did.
1:34:08
And I can remember the first time I told him about his ops plus, you know, was in the top 18 in all time in Major League Baseball.
1:34:16
And he asked me what OPS plus was.
1:34:19
That was one of the funniest times.
1:34:21
And he actually benefited with all the saber metrics that came out because it established that from two from 1964, his rookie year, to 1960, 74s last year in Chicago, 11 year span, he had the best OPS plus in
1:34:37
baseball.
1:34:38
165 better than everybody.
1:34:41
And just amazing, amazing offensive statistics.
1:34:45
But he was more than that.
1:34:47
He had tremendous power, you know, get him on the roof.
1:34:50
But he just had an incredible baseball mind.
1:34:52
He would have made a great manager.
1:34:54
When he was with the White Sox, he was a team leader.
1:34:57
And the younger players like Bruce Scott, who just look up to him.
1:35:00
I know I spoke to Ed Herman once, David, probably his last interview, and he was talking about Dick Allen, his impact on the team, and how misunderstood he really was and how he was kind of dragged over the
1:35:20
coals by people for what they assumed the man was.
1:35:27
You're really on target with that because he was really lionized by me, just victimized by Bill James, who wrote a book about confession for Cooperstown and basically said that Dick Allen was the worst guy in baseball next to
1:35:46
Rogers Hornsby.
1:35:47
And it was a cancer in the clubhouse.
1:35:49
And I will tell you I probably interviewed, you know, 25 or more of his teammates.
1:35:54
I only ever had one teammate that even suggests that he was actually beloved by his teammates in Chicago, Los Angeles, St.
1:36:04
Louis, and then Philadelphia.
1:36:08
Just incredibly misunderstood.
1:36:11
Yeah.
1:36:12
And that's the truth.
1:36:14
Now, this documentary, David, kind of traces Richard Jr.
1:36:20
S pilgrimage in the spring of 25 as he prepares for his dad's induction.
1:36:28
It does.
1:36:29
I mean, it starts earlier.
1:36:30
I mean, Dick lost in 2014 by one vote.
1:36:35
Then he lost again in Orlando in 2021 by one vote.
1:36:40
And that's how the documentary starts.
1:36:42
Is all of us at a watch party, you know, expecting for him to get in, and he loses again by one vote.
1:36:49
It was a gut punch.
1:36:50
Horrible.
1:36:50
So that's sort of the dramatic, you know, hook for the film is that really galvanizes us to really go all out the next time that he would be eligible to vote to get him in the hall of Fame.
1:37:02
And So it was 2024 in December in Dallas, when we had another watch party.
1:37:10
And I felt very good about that.
1:37:13
One thing was different.
1:37:14
This vote, they didn't announce the committee until the week before the vote, because before there was a lot of lobbying done for people up for the hall of Fame.
1:37:25
And so this was an attempt by the hall of Fame to limit that, you know, like, politics before the vote type of situation.
1:37:34
Nonetheless, you know, I went to work, I was in the field, and I did a lot of buttonholing, and I was able to sort of change two votes at the last minute.
1:37:45
And I knew when the announcement was being made on Sunday night in December, I knew I had 13 votes, and he got 13 votes, and I knew he was going to be in.
1:37:56
And it was a wonderful feeling for me, having worked on this project for, you know, 12 years, to be sitting next to Richard and with the family and to celebrate my favorite baseball player of all time, get in
1:38:09
the hall of Fame.
1:38:10
What an accomplishment, Richard.
1:38:12
Yeah, you could truly be proud of that.
1:38:14
And as you mentioned, the hall of Fame and the committees, really some nasty stuff probably going on behind the scenes that people never think about or hear about.
1:38:27
I remember before the committees, Ted Williams basically ran the Veterans Committee and had a say in people's election.
1:38:39
Like, I remember.
1:38:40
Who was it?
1:38:41
Brooklyn Dodger?
1:38:44
He said there were too many Brooklyn Dodgers in the hall of Fame.
1:38:47
Now, how you could come to that, and just because the guy's on a ball club, dismiss his candidacy.
1:38:58
Joe Brown was on the committee.
1:39:01
The man who was the owner, I believe, of the Pittsburgh Pirates got Bill Mazarowski Elected.
1:39:07
Now, I don't want to speak ill of the dead or undermine Bill Mazeroski in any way.
1:39:17
Don't think he's a Hall of Famer, I mean a great defensive second baseman, but let's be honest here, don't think he belongs in Cooperstown, God rest his soul.
1:39:29
And congratulations for getting in, but that's just my opinion.
1:39:34
And let's talk about the visit of Richard Jr.
1:39:38
To Little Rock.
1:39:39
Tell the folks David, if you would.
1:39:42
David Fletcher is with us tonight.
1:39:45
Dr.
1:39:45
David Fletcher talking about the new documentary about Dick Allen, the trip to Little Rock, Arkansas.
1:39:53
What does that signify?
1:39:55
Well, that was the most important part of the film besides obviously the announcement, getting in the hall of Fame and the hall of Fame induction.
1:40:05
Little Rock was Dick Allen's Krypton story, like Superman is the origin of the story.
1:40:14
Dick grew up in western Pennsylvania, which is really, you know, was a well integrated town, didn't have any kind of racial issues, you know, was beloved basketball star and baseball star.
1:40:26
And he just had no experience ever in the South.
1:40:30
And he got sent to AAA baseball in April 1963, along with another Philadelphia Philly prospect named Ferguson Jenkins.
1:40:42
And they got sent to Little Rock, Arkansas.
1:40:44
You know, this is only seven years removed when President Eisenhower had sent the National Guard to protect the Little Rock nine high school students to go to go to school at Little Rock Central.
1:40:56
And it was still the same governor, you know, there whole firing favorites that had tried to block the kids from going to high school was still there.
1:41:08
And he led a.
1:41:11
Basically a reason to keep Dick out of Little Rock.
1:41:16
Playing baseball.
1:41:17
There was a Ku Klux Klan did not want Dick to be playing there.
1:41:21
They did not want to negralize baseball.
1:41:24
And so it was a whirlwind environment.
1:41:32
Little rock with 14 years after Jackie Robinson, unlike Jackie, he had no help from his team.
1:41:37
They just sent him there.
1:41:38
He didn't have any place to live.
1:41:40
He ended up living with one of the families of Little Rock nine.
1:41:43
He couldn't eat with the team, he had a gun put to his face.
1:41:46
His first game in Little Rock with all this protest, they put a thing on his car.
1:41:52
You're going to get killed.
1:41:53
Don't come here using the N word first.
1:41:56
He's out in left field, he drops a fly ball from being nervous.
1:42:01
But he made up for it, ended up winning the game with a couple doubles.
1:42:04
And despite this adverse environment where he was ended up being brought up by the Phillies in 9-3-1963 and never looked back.
1:42:15
And so that was such an important part of his upbringing.
1:42:18
And right before he died, I'm with him and his son, and I was trying to get Dick to.
1:42:23
To go back to Little Rock.
1:42:25
I wanted to drive down there with him and his son, and he just wouldn't do it.
1:42:28
It was just such painful for him.
1:42:31
He said it was like a graveyard going back.
1:42:33
Oh, boy.
1:42:34
So it was.
1:42:35
That was the thing I needed to do, was take his son to Little Rock with Fergie, with his, you know, partner that was there across the car line.
1:42:44
Two black guys that, you know, face incredible hate and became hall of Famers.
1:42:51
Yeah.
1:42:52
So the documentary, My Father, Dick Allen, deals with the racism.
1:42:59
This is 1963, folks.
1:43:01
This is not the 50s when Jackie broke in with the Brooklyn Dodgers.
1:43:05
This is Little Rock, Arkansas.
1:43:07
The Arkansas Travelers is the name of the ball club.
1:43:11
1963.
1:43:12
Dick Allen and Ferguson Jenkins encounter this particular form of really almost violent racism, threatening violence.
1:43:23
Anyway, and that's a big part of this documentary and a big part of the experience in life of a young Dick Allen.
1:43:33
Well, the documentary continues to Chicago, where Dick Allen becomes a beloved icon for the Sox.
1:43:42
American League mvp leaves an indelible mark on the city, as you can see by David Fletcher, who his favorite player was Dick Allen.
1:43:53
And in May 25, the City of Chicago honors him in a pregame ceremony.
1:43:58
Right, David?
1:43:59
Yeah, they did.
1:44:00
They had a nice bobblehead ceremony for Dick, you know, Dick's family.
1:44:06
Dick's widow, Willa Richard Jr.
1:44:09
Was there.
1:44:09
His.
1:44:09
His brother Buttons was there.
1:44:12
Unfortunately, if their sister could not be there, Terry, who had gotten murdered, Dick lost his middle child to a murderer.
1:44:21
I mean, that's all the stuff he suffered in his whole life.
1:44:24
Oh, boy.
1:44:25
Yeah.
1:44:26
Horrible.
1:44:27
That's the bobblehead that we spoke about on the phone earlier, David.
1:44:31
It depicts Dick in that classic pose on the COVID of Sports Illustrated, juggling the baseballs with a cigarette hanging from his lips with the classic red Chicago White Sox uniform on.
1:44:46
And my wife may not know, but I have one of those.
1:44:51
I think I hid it from her because she's not a fan of bobbleheads at all and my collecting.
1:44:58
But she knows about it now, David.
1:45:01
So the jig is up.
1:45:03
But the documentary explores really the repeated heartbreak of Dick Allen's hall of Fame candidacy that David spoke about earlier in both 2014 and 2021.
1:45:20
It culminates, really, with the announcement when he was elected in December 24th.
1:45:27
Really depicts the raw emotion that you guys went through.
1:45:32
It certainly does.
1:45:33
I mean, again, I don't think many baseball Fans can have the experience.
1:45:38
I had to be able to be there for that.
1:45:41
It's also very gratifying because I worked hard on it for 12 years, even though I'm practicing as a doctor.
1:45:48
Yeah.
1:45:48
Dr.
1:45:49
David Fletcher with us tonight, talking about my father, Dick Allen, the wonderful new documentary that is out.
1:45:58
How can people see this documentary, David, by the way?
1:46:02
Well, right now, thanks for asking that question, Bill, about where they can see it.
1:46:06
You know, right now we're working on distributorship, so we should be able to announce that soon, we hope this fall.
1:46:12
We've done some, you know, premieres around the country in Philadelphia.
1:46:20
We're going to go back in Philadelphia end of August, end of this month, do another presentation there.
1:46:27
So just stay tuned.
1:46:28
It's just, you know, working on selling the documentary and getting distributor.
1:46:33
You know, we're optimistic.
1:46:35
I mean, it's a fantastic film.
1:46:37
Again, we.
1:46:38
We've shot in about 20 different locations around the United States and really tell the arc of a story.
1:46:44
And it's a story about America in that it's, it's a baseball story background, but it's really about a person who triumphs over adversity and just shows so much courage getting through this experience and not having any hate.
1:47:00
And that was something I really, really enjoyed.
1:47:03
When I personally got to be very close to Dick, I spoke at his funeral.
1:47:07
I was a pallbearer.
1:47:08
I was very fortunate that the family trusted me.
1:47:11
And it's just an incredible experience for me.
1:47:16
I have.
1:47:18
My daughter is a lawyer, first day of law school, she met an African American kid from Philadelphia.
1:47:23
So I have three African American grandchildren.
1:47:25
So it's very personal for me now.
1:47:27
And so just, it's just a great story about an American that goes through the 50s and 60s and comes out, you know, still with integrity.
1:47:40
He believed in himself.
1:47:42
He was a lot like Muhammad Ali.
1:47:44
He was just a very sports figure that just had a very unique charisma.
1:47:49
And he knew what his worth was.
1:47:52
And he certainly has had a very tortured course, but he came through it.
1:47:58
And that's what's inspiring the classic story,.
1:48:02
David, of good triumphing over evil.
1:48:05
And that's, bottom line, what we're dealing with here, with Dick Allen triumphing over racism, the hall of Fame committees not taking into consideration really, his statistics, which really spoke for themselves.
1:48:24
In the documentary, we have Fergie Jenkins, Dusty Baker Goose Gossage, along with Willa Allen, Dick's widow.
1:48:34
What I want to know, David, and maybe you can shed some light on this, is White Sox organist Nancy Faust.
1:48:43
What does she have to do with all this?
1:48:46
What is the organist?
1:48:48
She's really an important part.
1:48:51
Okay.
1:48:54
Her third year with the White Sox, when Dick came to Chicago, the franchise was one step out of the the city.
1:49:03
They only had 500,000 fans come.
1:49:05
In 1970, the ownership had done a deal with Bud Selig, one brother, Art Allen, who he didn't tell his other brother, John Allen, he was doing this.
1:49:16
And John Allen told Bud Selig, you're not going to get my team to go to Chicago.
1:49:21
And he bought out his brother.
1:49:24
He did not want to lose an American League charter team away from the city.
1:49:28
So anyway, Nancy comes along and Dick Allen is the savior figure.
1:49:32
And this is the first time ever she editorialized about a player coming up to bat.
1:49:38
She invented walk up music because of Dick Allen.
1:49:41
She played Jesus Christ Superstar.
1:49:45
And I will just tell you how exciting it was when he would come to the plate.
1:49:51
Everybody would stop what they're doing.
1:49:53
People wouldn't go to the bathroom.
1:49:54
Ushers would stop, and you would hear the majestic organ.
1:49:57
And that was before the other sound systems in the place, the other music.
1:50:01
And it was really, really special.
1:50:03
So Nancy actually played that.
1:50:05
She drove her organ out from Chicago to Denver.
1:50:07
When we had a premiere in Denver at Series Fest, she actually played.
1:50:13
And it was so cool to have her play Jesus Christ Superstar with Fernie Jenkins there.
1:50:18
Goose Costa's on the panel, and she's a very important part of the story.
1:50:23
Dick loved her.
1:50:24
I was able to connect them before Dick died.
1:50:29
And that was so important for Dick to be able to do, to be able to talk to Nancy back in 2020.
1:50:36
And so she's.
1:50:37
She's really an important part because she invented this part of music.
1:50:42
It's such an important part of sports.
1:50:46
Yeah, truly is, as you say, walk up music today a major part of the ball game experience.
1:50:55
I mean, you have the guy in Atlanta who tries to do a little ditty for each ball player.
1:51:02
I know for Francisco Lindor on the Mets, Lindor Chocolates, you know, he does something with that.
1:51:10
Just a huge part now of the ball game is the music.
1:51:16
And thanks for explaining that to me about Nancy Faust, the White Sox organist.
1:51:21
David, that's a pretty nice story.
1:51:24
Now, bottom line, in our last few minutes, my father, Dick Allen is the name of the documentary, as we said, not just about baseball.
1:51:36
It's a story really of resilience, rebellion, and ultimately redemption with Dick Allen's induction into the Baseball hall of Fame.
1:51:49
Talk quickly a little bit about the speech that was given at the induction.
1:51:54
David?
1:51:55
Well, the speech was given by Willa, his widow.
1:51:58
And, you know, she basically was not so much about statistics, it was about Dick as a person.
1:52:04
You know, she brought up about Dick knew he was going to be a baseball player when he was in the sixth grade.
1:52:09
That's what he wanted to do.
1:52:11
He wanted to buy a house for his mom.
1:52:14
He got a huge signing bonus in 1960, the biggest ever for an African American player.
1:52:20
Bought his mom a house.
1:52:22
She talked about the personal things.
1:52:24
She brought up about how he befriended fans, he liked the little people.
1:52:30
She talked about a guy named Jackson, last name Jackson, who was watch Dick and the Dodgers, and they befriended him.
1:52:39
And, you know, I got to go out and interview him in Los Angeles, had a lot of Dick's pats.
1:52:44
And she talked about how important the little people were for Dick.
1:52:48
And he was never one that had any kind of attitude or thought he was better than other people.
1:52:54
So she really personalized him as a, as a person.
1:52:58
And I think that was really critical because most people didn't really have really any idea what he was about.
1:53:04
And so I think it was more about what he overcame than, you know, what he did on the field.
1:53:10
And I think that's the really true story about Dick, is obviously he was an unbelievable baseball player, you know, a five tool talent and terrorized pitchers during the 60s and 70s, but it's just even more of his impact.
1:53:24
And especially his trade from the Phillies to the Cardinals was for Kurt Flood, was the start of free agency.
1:53:32
You know, Dick had been a lot instrumental with the Players association about making sure we, you know, they got their words.
1:53:39
You know, he had, he had done a lot of, you know, kind of holdouts and spring training with the Phillies.
1:53:44
And so he's part of the change in baseball.
1:53:46
And it was a lot about him developing, you know, why he was, you know, he valued what he did.
1:53:53
Outstanding.
1:53:53
Well, Dr.
1:53:54
David Fletcher, thank you for being with us.
1:53:57
It's been a pleasure.
1:53:58
Thank you for taking time out of your Sunday night to be with us on Sports Talk New York.
1:54:03
All the best with my father, Dick Allen.
1:54:06
If you stay in touch, David, we'll try to get the word out to people when, when and how they can see the documentary.
1:54:14
Thank you so much, Bill.
1:54:15
And thank you so much, much.
1:54:17
All right, that's Dr.
1:54:18
David Fletcher, ladies and gentlemen.
1:54:20
That'll do it for me tonight on Sports Talk New York.
1:54:23
I would like to thank my guests, Lee Trevino, Al Downing, Randall Sullivan, and Dr.
1:54:29
David Fletcher.
1:54:30
My engineer, Brian Graves, and of course, you guys for joining us.
1:54:34
See you Next on Sunday, August 9, 8:00pm Eastern Time for more Sports Talk New York.
1:54:40
Till then, be safe, be well.
1:54:43
Bill Donahue, wishing you a good evening, folks.
1:54:45
The views expressed in the previous program.
1:54:47
Did not necessarily represent those of the staff, management or owners of wgbb.