Latest / psychophobia* podcast / Episode 02: When the World Goes Quiet - Invisible Disabilities, Radical Sensitivity, and the Healing Power of Silence

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Episode 02: When the World Goes Quiet - Invisible Disabilities, Radical Sensitivity, and the Healing Power of Silence · psychophobia* podcast

• 0:05
  What if the institutions designed to help us understand the
• 0:09
  human psyche are
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: actually afraid of them?
• 0:12
  Hosted by Dr Michael Montgomery,
• 0:15
  this podcast explores the uncomfortable questions.
• 0:18
  Together we'll examine how the mental health systems meant to
• 0:21
  heal us instead
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: perpetuate cycles of dependency.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Psychophobia Podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr. Michael Montgomery.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here in Minneapolis.
• 0:46
  It's 8.30 in the morning and in a few hours I'm going to go to
• 0:50
  Orpheil Labs and I'm
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  going to attempt to break the unofficial world record for
• 0:56
  sitting in an anochronic
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  SPEAKER_01: chamber.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: The Orphe Labs is famous for being the most silent place on Earth.
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  The idea was to go into the chamber because there's a sort of
• 1:11
  urban myth around
• 1:13
  people losing their mind due to the perceptual changes that
• 1:18
  they experience as the
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  SPEAKER_01: mind tries to make sense of being in a silent space.
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  SPEAKER_01: And also making sense of noises that it's not familiar with,
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  like the blood running through the body or their bones sort of
• 1:33
  creaking or their
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  SPEAKER_01: heart beating.
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  So often the mind can try and make sense of things and kind of
• 1:41
  hallucinate to try
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: and make sense of that.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea was to sort of walk the talk.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a moment of no turning back.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited and I have some degree of trepidation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Three, two, one.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very nice to be here in Orfield Labs with you, Emma.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a pleasure.
• 2:10
  And I've just come out of your iconic chamber,
• 2:15
  which I find difficult to say.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to get my words around it.
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  But do you want to explain from your perspective what it is and
• 2:22
  why you have it?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: So,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: we're a multi-sensory design and research firm,
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  SPEAKER_02: largely focusing on architecture and in product development.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So our specialty is in human perception,
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  which is a wonderful field to be in because it's responsible
• 2:40
  for everything.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's the only reason.
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  SPEAKER_02: why we know we're here.
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  And so we mostly work in architecture and product development
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  focused on sensory issues.
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  SPEAKER_02: So in architecture, we work across all the perceptual modalities.
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  SPEAKER_02: We work in acoustics,
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  SPEAKER_02: lighting,
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  SPEAKER_02: daylighting,
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  SPEAKER_02: thermal comfort,
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  SPEAKER_02: audiovisual,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: and indoor air quality.
• 3:04
  And in the product side,
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  we help many of our clients,
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  all of our clients,
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  to understand
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  what it is the product that they're designing is meant to
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  elicit from the user.
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  We're trying to help them to understand what people's true
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  preferences are,
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  SPEAKER_02: which are largely unconscious,
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  SPEAKER_02: we've come to understand.
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  And we help them to design products that are perceptually
• 3:28
  comfortable for their
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: users,
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  SPEAKER_02: that are intuitive,
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  SPEAKER_02: that are easy to use,
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  SPEAKER_02: that are...
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  that are essentially designed for the perceptual capacity of
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  how people use things.
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  So part of a strong environment in product testing and
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  manufacturing and design is
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  SPEAKER_02: anechoic chambers.
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  So an anechoic chamber is by definition a room that's 100%
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  absorbent of sound.
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  SPEAKER_02: And anechoic means anti-echo.
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  So the intention of the space is to isolate a product so that
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  then you can
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  determine what the sound of that product is within the context
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  of essentially no
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  SPEAKER_02: environment.
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  SPEAKER_02: So when you go into an anechoic chamber, there is no reflection.
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  In this room,
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  in most rooms that you're in,
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  you're hearing yourself come back to you.
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  SPEAKER_02: You're hearing yourself within the context of a space.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that chamber is traditionally used for product testing.
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  SPEAKER_02: But we realize that the metaphor transfers quite perfectly to people.
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  SPEAKER_02: So,
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  SPEAKER_02: either the product is the occupant and it's the only thing in the room,
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  SPEAKER_02: or a person,
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  SPEAKER_02: perhaps,
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  SPEAKER_02: is the occupant and is the only thing in the room.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so,
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  we've taken a lot of these traditional thoughts and
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  understanding around the
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  SPEAKER_02: technical use of an anechoic chamber,
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  SPEAKER_02: and we've transferred it to people.
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  So a new piece of our practice that I run and direct is our
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  therapeutics program.
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  And the development of that followed my self-diagnosing as an
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  adult with various
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  SPEAKER_02: sensory processing issues and wondering,
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  SPEAKER_02: well,
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  what if I took my meditation practice into the anechoic chamber
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  on a consistent
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  SPEAKER_02: basis?
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  SPEAKER_02: Following lots of time in there, I began opening it up to other people.
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  And now I largely work with groups of strangers,
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  actually,
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  or individuals.
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  SPEAKER_02: I take individual clients that are interested in experiencing the space.
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  SPEAKER_02: We have a strong focus on invisible disabilities,
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  SPEAKER_02: on cognitive and perceptual disabilities,
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  everything from dementia and aging to autism and blindness and
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  deafness and PTSD
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  SPEAKER_02: and on and on and on.
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  SPEAKER_02: And what we found is that if you consider all of those groups of people,
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  SPEAKER_02: it accounts for over half of us.
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  And so I find that a lot of my clients that I'm working with in
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  the anechoic
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  SPEAKER_02: chamber and a lot of people that are interested,
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  curious about the quietest place on earth in general are among
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  that population.
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  So are among the 50 plus percent of us that are living with
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  invisible disabilities.
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  And a big piece that's consistent among all those populations,
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  demographics of people is that
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  SPEAKER_02: they're sensitive, they're perceptually sensitive across the board.
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  So,
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  there is a natural inclination for people to come in based on
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  that reality.
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  SPEAKER_02: And the interesting thing is,
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  SPEAKER_02: is many of these people don't even recognize that they are sensitive.
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  SPEAKER_02: Many of them haven't,
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  SPEAKER_02: even considered what the language would be to describe what's going on.
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  SPEAKER_02: So, this is our entry into therapeutics.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's been extremely interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating.
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  SPEAKER_01: You said so many things I would like to ask you about.
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  SPEAKER_01: I would say that the...
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  SPEAKER_01: Probably the most complex and severe presentations I see if you say,
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  SPEAKER_01: what's the common denominator?
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  SPEAKER_01: Let's say sensitivity.
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  SPEAKER_01: Very sensitive people to the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  But no knowledge in terms of how to manage that sensitivity
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  until things get
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  SPEAKER_01: really,
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  SPEAKER_01: really difficult.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  So I came here slightly on the back of the urban myth that
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  spending time in the
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  SPEAKER_01: chamber could cause difficulty,
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  SPEAKER_01: perceptual changes,
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  SPEAKER_01: etc.
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  The idea was a little bit of a gimmick from my end in wanting
• 7:53
  to walk the talk in
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  terms of psychophobia and show that we don't need to be afraid
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  of our minds.
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  But my experience in the chamber was very different in the
• 8:01
  sense of it brought me
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  SPEAKER_01: back to a place of stillness and peace.
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  SPEAKER_01: And other than the initial being in a confined space and in darkness,
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  SPEAKER_01: actually my experience was there was nothing to fear at all.
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  SPEAKER_01: So...
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  Is that most people's experience when they come or do they not
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  come with those
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  SPEAKER_01: preconceived sort of fears?
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  Many people come here with those preconceived fears because the
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  media has done a
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  very good job of spreading a rumor that if you spend X amount
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  of minutes or hours
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  SPEAKER_02: in the chamber,
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  SPEAKER_02: you'll go crazy.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that headline has just...
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  SPEAKER_02: catapulted into the stratosphere.
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  SPEAKER_02: And people cling to that because people cling to crises.
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  SPEAKER_02: We resonate with the idea of a crisis, I think.
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  And I think a lot of people make change in their life as a
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  result of crises and so on.
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  So many people are coming in here worried that it will be a
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  challenging experience.
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  SPEAKER_02: And many people leave
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  SPEAKER_02: realizing that that wasn't the case at all.
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  SPEAKER_02: I certainly don't want to say that there is an overall experience,
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  SPEAKER_02: that overarching experience that people have.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think that sense of contrast is very clear.
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  SPEAKER_02: But as we discussed earlier, I always take into account the fact that
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  SPEAKER_02: our clients,
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  SPEAKER_02: my clients,
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  SPEAKER_02: people I'm working with in the chamber,
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  SPEAKER_02: those that are interested and decide to come here are self-selecting.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so they've already decided that they're interested,
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  but the narrative that this is a therapeutic experience is not
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  something that we
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  SPEAKER_02: have really made clear until recently.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's fascinating because I was reasonably confident.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to walk the talk.
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  But what happened was as I got closer to it,
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  people around me started to get nervous.
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  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  And their nervousness about me doing it started to make me
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  slightly nervous.
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  And then I made the parallel with people who get into
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  difficulty,
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  extreme states,
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  psychosis.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's shown that it's not so much that experience,
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  SPEAKER_01: but how people treat them having that experience.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that was a very interesting kind of parallel.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it is an interesting parallel.
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  I think that I'm hugely impacted in my life based on other
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  people's fears,
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  SPEAKER_02: particularly if they apply to me.
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  SPEAKER_02: That can be a very haunting experience.
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  I think the only thing that can really dissolve that is having
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  the experience
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  SPEAKER_02: itself,
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  SPEAKER_02: which now you have.
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  SPEAKER_02: And you described earlier feeling kind of joyous.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I could have probably stayed there for a lot longer.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Definitely sense of peace and stillness.
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  But I did reflect I have had a lot of experience in silence and
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  silence retreats.
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  And then I wondered what would it be like for people for their
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  first experience?
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  SPEAKER_01: And you would know that because you've been with them.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what are the first things sort of people say?
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  SPEAKER_01: What's a visceral...
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  SPEAKER_02: After they leave?
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  SPEAKER_01: Just when they've had the first sort of experience of the chamber.
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  SPEAKER_02: People have said a lot of different things.
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  What's been most noteworthy to me is despite people having a
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  strong interest in
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  SPEAKER_02: silence and perhaps even recognizing that they're more sensitive,
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  SPEAKER_02: we're so focused on
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  whether we're interested in Eastern or Western medicine or any
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  type,
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  of what can be added on.
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  SPEAKER_02: What supplement can I take?
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  What new activity can I layer onto my life to,
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  at the end,
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  make me feel...
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  SPEAKER_02: hopefully more connected with myself, better, all of this.
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  And so people are surprised at how comfortable they are with
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  having nothing to
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  SPEAKER_02: distract them,
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  SPEAKER_02: nothing to focus on.
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  SPEAKER_02: Many people I have come in that have a strong interest in silence,
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  SPEAKER_02: but are somewhat hyperactive and used to going,
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  SPEAKER_02: going,
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  SPEAKER_02: going and preferring that.
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  SPEAKER_02: have come out of the chamber and said,
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  SPEAKER_02: I was surprised I was able to sit so still for that period of time.
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  SPEAKER_02: Many people report going through the years of talk therapy and saying,
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  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot more that emerged in the not talk therapy.
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  So there's a lot of responses that I've taken and observed
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  anecdotally that have
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  made me think about how this could be a strong tool used in
• 13:04
  tandem for all sorts of
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: different therapeutic practices,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: largely to lubricate you,
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  to get you into a space where you're no longer needing to mask
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  as much as you
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: usually are in your life.
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  SPEAKER_02: You're no longer needing to filter as much as you do in your life.
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  SPEAKER_02: And
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  It's surprising to my clients the reality of that emerging and
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  also just the
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: reality of recognizing their comfort with it.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think in many ways because they haven't experienced it before.
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  So this is by no means an environment that resembles nature as
• 13:41
  we were talking about earlier.
• 13:44
  This is by no means an environment that represents to anyone
• 13:48
  their day-to-day real life.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: This doesn't represent the real world.
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  SPEAKER_02: This represents the opposite of that.
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  And we know very well that the best way to confront things is
• 14:03
  to act in contrast to
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: whatever it is that's going on.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so here we are in this noisy world and we're slipping into a room
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  SPEAKER_02: that eliminates major,
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  SPEAKER_02: major,
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  SPEAKER_02: major components of what that world is made up of and how we detect it.
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  And that sense of contrast that my clients experience is
• 14:26
  surprising to them because
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: it's a new experience.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think that the,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: because silence is fascinating in terms of,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: for some people to torture,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: for some people to spend a lot of money to try and experience silence.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think it's what makes it a torture is it's not voluntary?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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  I think that sensory deprivation is something that's been used
• 14:52
  and talked about for
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: many,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: many years.
• 14:55
  And it's a terminology that we largely don't use because of its
• 15:00
  weight and because
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: it implies a negative.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the key part of what you just said,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's that it's either voluntary or it's not voluntary.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Again, we circle back to people are choosing to be here.
• 15:17
  People are being put and brought into this space with an amount
• 15:22
  of care and with an
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: amount of curiosity and presence.
• 15:24
  And so if someone was forced into that room and the room was
• 15:29
  identical to what it's
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: like when you were in there,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: it wouldn't be different.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: It would be very different.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Have you had any teenagers in?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Have they responded?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Very positively.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: We have less children in than we do adults, for sure.
• 15:46
  I've had a lot of parents bring in their kids that are on the
• 15:49
  autism spectrum.
• 15:51
  And that is a population that we see do so well in there
• 15:55
  because the majority of
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: the autism population are hypersensitive.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that isn't...
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: understood clearly,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: even in the autism community,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: certainly not in how we design for autism.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: So there are specific groups,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: folks with PTSD being a big one,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: people that have autism that we see do overwhelmingly well in there.
• 16:19
  And I would say a lot of the kids that are brought in here are
• 16:24
  living with some
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: type of a cognitive or perceptual difference.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to you to say that they've done really well in there?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: They enjoy it.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really interesting.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: They calm down.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a big piece of autism is activation.
• 16:39
  And activation in a lot of ways can come about as a result of
• 16:44
  being in a space
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: that's perceptually noisy.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And change is also a big piece of autism.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: So in an autism clinic that we designed locally,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: it's in a suburb of Minneapolis called Woodbury,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: it was the first scientifically designed autism building in the world.
• 17:00
  And the main thing that we paid attention to in designing the
• 17:03
  space was lack of change.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we called it monastery design.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're going from one room to another,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: the acoustics,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: the lighting,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: the daylighting,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: the thermal comfort is identical.
• 17:14
  So the environment isn't the thing that's going to be
• 17:18
  activating the people in that space.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: A similar thing is happening in the anechoic chamber.
• 17:24
  These people are coming into a room where the environment isn't
• 17:28
  going to activate
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: you on a perceptual level.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And do your clients identify with being sensitive before they come in?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And does the contrast help them see that more clearly?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or...
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: so with my private clients that I work with in the anechoic chamber upon,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: before I see them,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: they come in for their first appointment,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: I do a consultation.
• 17:53
  And a lot of that consultation has to do with framing the
• 17:56
  experience and also
• 17:57
  asking them what they're getting out of it or what they're
• 18:00
  wanting to get out of
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: And many times those conversations end up being
• 18:06
  are you somebody that would self-identify as being perceptually
• 18:10
  sensitive?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes the answer is yes.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes these people have considered that,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: have a diagnosis,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: have self-diagnosed,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: and sometimes they haven't at all.
• 18:22
  Sometimes most people don't have the language to be able to
• 18:27
  describe what we're describing.
• 18:31
  It's complicated because I'm working more and more in the space
• 18:34
  of potentially wrong diagnosis.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, sure.
• 18:38
  So people are in the mental health system and their
• 18:41
  neurodiversity isn't recognised
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: by professionals,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: by themselves and by family.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm experiencing, to me, it's self-evident.
• 18:52
  But there's a resistance because it seems to be that perhaps a
• 18:56
  family would rather
• 18:57
  have the potential of someone being medicated and cured rather
• 19:01
  than dealing with
• 19:02
  someone who sees the world differently to them and that's not
• 19:05
  going to change.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that that's a huge issue.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's something that we talk about a lot here.
• 19:13
  And we also talk a lot about the fact that if you're diagnosed
• 19:18
  with autism or
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: you're diagnosed with PTSD,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: you also probably have all of these other things as well.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: But misdiagnosis is huge.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's a tendency to put people in boxes we think we understand.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not as boxed off as we like to think.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: But you said a couple of other really interesting things.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: You dropped in.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you dropped in the unconscious.
• 19:47
  But you dropped it in a world that is very much based on
• 19:52
  scientific materialism.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And in that world, often the unconscious isn't accepted.
• 19:58
  It's obviously a huge part of my world,
• 20:00
  but how do you reconcile those two?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that how do I reconcile the difference between?
• 20:08
  So you could come in and you could talk about the chamber and
• 20:11
  you can show measurements.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: How do you measure the unconscious?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 20:16
  we do all sorts of measurement in our architectural and product
• 20:21
  consulting work on
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: unconscious emotions and preferences.
• 20:26
  And so we use a form of quantitative subjective research to try
• 20:32
  to figure out not
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: what people think they think they feel,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: but actually how they feel.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want to avoid, I guess, getting into the technical piece of that.
• 20:45
  But there are clear methods for researching the unconscious in
• 20:49
  the same way that
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: there are clear methods for researching opinions.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so, I don't think it's much of an issue to reconcile with that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Say more about how you would research that.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I could give an example.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Harley Davidson is a big client of ours,
• 21:05
  and they came to us because they had to quiet their bikes for
• 21:08
  the European market.
• 21:09
  And we said,
• 21:12
  okay,
• 21:12
  sure,
• 21:13
  why would you like to quiet your bikes for Europe?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you worried about that?
• 21:17
  And they're worried that they're going to lose their customers
• 21:20
  because people are
• 21:22
  riding the bikes because they're loud and because they like
• 21:25
  that about it.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we asked Harley, we said, well, have you ever actually...
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: studied why people are riding Harleys.
• 21:32
  So in several parts,
• 21:34
  we ended up taking a bunch of bikes to Talladega Speedway.
• 21:37
  We recorded the different characteristics,
• 21:39
  sounds,
• 21:39
  attributes of the bikes.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then we assembled a jury of 100 Harley riders.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we had them using a semantic differential scale,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: which you did earlier,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: a one to seven scale.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: We had them rate things like what, you know,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Does this sound feel expensive or not expensive?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Does it sound powerful, not powerful?
• 22:01
  And all of these attributes that we had come up that were
• 22:04
  consistent with what
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Harley wanted to understand about the bikes.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: What we found out was the...
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: The sound power,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: how noisy it was,
• 22:15
  had nothing to do with all these positive things that people
• 22:19
  wanted to feel as a
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: result of riding the bikes.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it had more to do with the vibration.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we were able to tell Harley,
• 22:25
  you can quiet your bikes for Europe and you're not going to
• 22:27
  lose your customers
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: because that has nothing to do with them enjoying the experience.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that's an example of what I mean when I say we have...
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: all sorts of unconscious preferences.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: We have all these things that we do in our day-to-day lives,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: choices that we make,
• 22:45
  and we don't know how to articulate them because we don't know
• 22:48
  how to self-report
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: correctly.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that the field of measuring unconscious emotions,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: you and Steve should talk about for sure, is incredible.
• 23:01
  But I think most of market research is opinion-based and
• 23:06
  doesn't use those methods.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So in my work, what I'm calling out is an assault on interiority.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: So if you think of scientific materialism,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: if you can't measure it,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't exist in that world.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, you can't really measure the interior.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like a move away.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So even in neuroscience,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: in many areas of neuroscience,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: if you talk about even consciousness,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: whoa,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: you're woo-woo,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: because you can't technically measure it in the same way.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I was picking up on it.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was fascinating.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is,
• 23:46
  you're the only non-psychoanalyst I've ever met in America who
• 23:50
  uses the term
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: unconscious.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone I've spoken to uses subconsciousness.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: I do see a Freudian psychoanalyst, so he could be partially responsible.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll say unconscious and people will correct me to subconscious.
• 24:05
  And when I've asked people that they say it's because they make
• 24:09
  the distinction
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: between unconscious,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: they think it's too close to unconsciousness.
• 24:15
  So they use subconscious,
• 24:17
  but not everyone who is conscious has consciousness.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's true, semantics.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, semantics.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: So as for,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: to go back to the chamber,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it would be interesting to talk about how you see,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: given your expertise,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: the individuals that you're working with have worked with,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: this is an environment that is traditionally used for one single thing,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: product testing.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what we're realizing
• 24:49
  We believe that we're the only people in the world that are
• 24:51
  using an anechoic
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: chamber to do therapeutics research,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: especially with these populations of people.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm curious as to what you think about this space that you've just
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: experienced as a therapeutic tool within the context of your work.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got a foot in two camps.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose,
• 25:17
  the meditative spiritual experience of being in silence and
• 25:20
  then there's the
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: therapeutic.
• 25:23
  So I thought immediately it took me and it gave me a sense of
• 25:29
  stillness really,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: really quickly and really,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: really rapidly.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that has huge therapeutic benefits.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: We talked earlier about the idea of...
• 25:43
  if we can create a gap between if you take say a mood and our
• 25:48
  awareness of the mood
• 25:49
  then the mood doesn't dominate in the same way and I think that
• 25:55
  that experience of
• 25:56
  stillness and silence and a reduction in distraction is could
• 26:02
  be very very
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: beneficial but the the the clincher is people would have to have a
• 26:08
  an interest in it because I immediately thought of the misuse
• 26:12
  of that technique in
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: terms of seclusion wards,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: for instance,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: where people have had a really terrible experience.
• 26:19
  The motivation has been to reduce stimulation and try to bring
• 26:23
  people down into a
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: more embodied,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: relaxed state.
• 26:27
  But it usually has the opposite because people are just thrown
• 26:31
  in and forgotten about it.
• 26:33
  So I would think the baseline would be people who have some
• 26:39
  sort of inclination or
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: interest or even curiosity around it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or at least not have any fear.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the initial motivation for coming here has sort of been debunked.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 26:57
  My thought was to demonstrate if you did have perceptual
• 27:01
  changes,
• 27:02
  it's okay.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's what you tell yourself about them is the issue.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: So having met you and spent time with you,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: you have completely rethought that and totally see that,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: this is a lot of opportunity and potential benefit therapeutically.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's nearly like people have the opportunity to stop
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: in a way that they wouldn't maybe perhaps outside?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 27:29
  the term that we've been using to describe this therapeutically
• 27:34
  is perceptual
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: silence,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: which acknowledges that silence is a multisensory issue,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: just as noise is.
• 27:44
  So we spoke earlier about how if you and I walked into the
• 27:48
  anechoic chamber and it
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: was dark and acoustically quiet,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: but cold,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: we wouldn't be in a quiet room.
• 27:56
  If it was the perfect temperature and acoustically very quiet,
• 28:01
  but very,
• 28:02
  very bright,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: we wouldn't be in a quiet room.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: We'd be in a bright room.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 28:08
  perceptual silence is the idea that noise can manifest in all
• 28:13
  areas of human
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: sensation,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: and silence can as well.
• 28:17
  And the only way to really achieve perceptual silence is by
• 28:21
  taking things away.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that goes against...
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: again, what we're taught in so many different areas.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: You should get a therapist.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: You should take the supplement.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: You should go here.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: So what we're wondering is,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: what if instead of adding anything,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: we start eliminating things and we start taking away variables?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: And within the context of the chamber,
• 28:48
  we're going to take the two things away that perceptually
• 28:52
  anchor you in a huge way
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: to your life.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, your vision and your hearing.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: as I said,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: when we walked into the anechoic chamber,
• 29:01
  the experience is about trying to take away the two main ways
• 29:04
  that you're connected
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: to the world.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And in a lot of ways, connected to yourself.
• 29:09
  And what emerges when you no longer have access to the things
• 29:14
  that are largely
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: keeping you company?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, all you're left with is you.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So how does that relate to you?
• 29:26
  I'm really curious because you said this a couple of times now
• 29:28
  about it's the
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: reason we know we're here.
• 29:30
  Perception,
• 29:32
  yeah,
• 29:33
  our ability to perceive is the only reason why we know we're
• 29:36
  here.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're saying you're taking that away, what does that mean then?
• 29:40
  Well,
• 29:40
  I'm saying I'm taking away two anchors of that,
• 29:44
  your vision and your hearing.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And what I'm left with is what I'm thinking,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: what I'm physically feeling,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: the temperature,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: all these other variables.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And those are the things that emerge as a result of the absence.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And naturally, our attention reorganizes itself.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is why, for example, people that are deaf or people that are blind
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: often have an enhanced ability to perceive in the other areas.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: my belief is that there's this overarching,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: there's this attention or this awareness that we have.
• 30:19
  And this experience gives you an environment in which you can
• 30:25
  reorganize those things.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And does that reorganization lead to more embodiment, do you think?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: My experience is it does.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the experience of many of my clients is that it does.
• 30:41
  So my experience in there now might be connected to how
• 30:44
  practice from a meditation
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: point of view,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: but it was like transcended the physical form.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a sense of unconfined spaciousness.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Which is ironic considering it was a confined... It is ironic.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: The darkness does that.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: The spatial,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: as you were saying earlier,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: the spatial component becomes very elastic once the lights go out.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: So those themes that you're hearing from your different clients,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: that would be the...
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: You had mentioned things like PTSD and I mean,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: what...
• 31:26
  Because that immediately brings to mind a sense of not feeling
• 31:30
  safe or being
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: triggered to not feel safe.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Activated.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Activated is a great word.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Activated, yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the reporting back from their experience?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: so right now I'm running a federal study on PTSD in veterans,
• 31:50
  and the intention of the study is to look at silence and
• 31:53
  darkness as a therapeutic
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: modality.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're reaching our halfway point in the study,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: and I don't have any of the physiological data back.
• 32:04
  But the general response from the veterans and what I've
• 32:08
  experienced is many of
• 32:09
  these people are now living with PTSD as a result of their
• 32:14
  military experience.
• 32:15
  And many of them have PTSD as a strong association to their
• 32:21
  fight or flight.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And fight or flight is often caused by activation,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: by being in an environment that's perceptually noisy.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: or in a circumstance that's perceptually noisy.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so this represents a strong point of contrast from that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: And many people,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: many of the veterans I'm working with are leaving,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: saying things along the lines of,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: this is the most peaceful I've felt in my life.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's powerful.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Very powerful.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:57
  And this is also,
• 32:58
  I should just mention,
• 32:59
  this is just with a couple of sessions.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: It shows you how quickly those conditions can bring people into that.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the question is, how long does that feeling linger?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because we...
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: We often forget that the reason why we go on retreat,
• 33:21
  the reason why we do those types of things is to see how it
• 33:28
  affects us when we get
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: home.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: A comment,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: a meditation teacher that I really like often says,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: the retreat starts when you get home from the retreat.
• 33:41
  That's when the quote unquote,
• 33:42
  the work is being done,
• 33:44
  the process is being done.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's an area that we haven't done a lot of investigation into.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: I have personally, because I use the anechoic chamber regularly.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: But how long these effects,
• 33:59
  this experience lingers is a component that we're really
• 34:03
  interested in and curious
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: about.
• 34:05
  Well,
• 34:05
  as I sit here now,
• 34:07
  I would,
• 34:07
  I feel as if I was five days into a retreat.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: After,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: because I'm very,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I spent years,
• 34:16
  I spent like two years solid in a monastery and then like three
• 34:21
  years after that,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: doing solid training.
• 34:24
  So,
• 34:25
  you know,
• 34:26
  it's like weeks at a time and then the contrast's been out,
• 34:29
  but
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes time for the conditions.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: If people arrive on retreat, they have to settle down.
• 34:36
  And as everyone starts to get more still,
• 34:39
  then the conditions get more supportive.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: But even what, maybe an hour, I'm still feeling that in that state.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is pretty powerful.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and you're also adapting, right?
• 34:54
  And so we've talked a little bit about perceptual adaptation,
• 34:56
  but to say a bit more,
• 35:00
  It's really important the transition into the anechoic chamber
• 35:04
  or outside of the
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: anechoic chamber because we know that
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: as we age,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: our ability to adjust perceptually gets slower and slower,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: that pace slows over time.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: When we're really young,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: we could be in a dark room,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: walk out to a snowy landscape and our eyes might adjust quite easily.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're older and that changes in a significant way.
• 35:28
  So I think that part of what you're experiencing right now is
• 35:33
  you're experiencing adaptation.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there is an integrative piece to the experience as well.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: How are you feeling in the hours, days, and so on afterwards?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: And to be self-reflective and to notice that is,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think can create a lot of really helpful thoughts.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I thought of the word integration when you were talking,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: but I didn't want to say it because it's become such a buzzword,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: particularly with the sort of psychedelic community.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, yeah, integration from retreat is a huge part.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Huge.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:17
  I actually really love how the word integration is used in the
• 36:21
  psychedelic community.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's become a buzzword,
• 36:23
  but it's actually one thing that I can really connect with and
• 36:26
  I'm comfortable with
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: adopting in some ways because of what I essentially just said,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's about what happens when you leave the experience.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:39
  So the problem is,
• 36:41
  you know,
• 36:41
  I see a lot of people who there is no integration piece.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they have a huge experience and then there's nowhere to set it.
• 36:55
  Whereas,
• 36:55
  you know,
• 36:55
  in different traditions that have a training component,
• 36:59
  there's a foundation.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: which these experiences can land in.
• 37:07
  So,
• 37:08
  you know,
• 37:09
  people can have mind-blowing experiences and then know where to
• 37:14
  put it.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: we talked about the Waves and War documentary,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: they were very much a buddy system there.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: They were kind of looking after each other.
• 37:24
  They were looking after each other in the same way they would
• 37:26
  have done in combat.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I often see people here maybe doing DMT in the house.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then have an experience of eternal torture, for instance.
• 37:36
  In the same way people talk about,
• 37:37
  oh,
• 37:37
  I had this amazing experience and it lasted forever.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Except if it's not.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then how do you deal with it?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 37:48
  I think that because plant medicine is such a strong and
• 37:53
  growing field of research
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: and interest right now,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it's something that does need to be taken very seriously.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the same is true for this.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: You could have plant medicine,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: you could have an anechoic chamber,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: but those things are completely,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: the experience is completely a result of how those things are held.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: And to your point, how they're integrated.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think that there's a complete lack of integration.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think we're taught to integrate.
• 38:28
  I think we're taught to go from one thing to another and to
• 38:34
  maybe not swim in the bardo.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or even take pause just to... Right.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: As you said, we're on to the next thing.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a random question, okay?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I... Because we're talking about perception and knowing we're here.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: If I was to...
• 38:58
  If you were to die right now,
• 39:02
  fall over,
• 39:02
  Dad,
• 39:03
  would I still be sitting here?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Would the world still be here exactly as you're perceiving it now?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I wouldn't know.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I would have awareness.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if we go back to the census, then we can have a consensus process.
• 39:26
  reality in terms of we can agree we're in this room etc on this
• 39:31
  seat but then we
• 39:33
  have an individual experience so I have no I don't know the
• 39:37
  name green cones or
• 39:39
  whatever so I'm slightly red green colour blind so perceptually
• 39:44
  it's going to be
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: different right do you have a sense that there is an objective reality no
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know there isn't one or no, you have no sense of one.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't think there is one.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think everything is incredibly subjective from a perceptual angle.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: depending on who you are,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: what you are,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: what your sensitivities are,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: your age,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: all sorts of things that we've been discussing.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think this doesn't exist without an observer.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: And since that observer is me within this particular context,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on my ability to have awareness.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because perception, it's not passive, is it?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it is passive.
• 40:45
  I mean,
• 40:46
  we're not consciously registering,
• 40:49
  oh,
• 40:49
  I'm doing this and that and this and that.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think it largely, it is unconscious.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there's an interpretation, isn't there?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: I ask everyone this question,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: and you might be surprised at the variation in answer,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: particularly with people that you think they might know.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 41:11
  I've asked some people who really you would hope they would
• 41:14
  know and it's like the
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: first time they've thought about this,
• 41:19
  which fascinates me because I'm perplexed by it slightly in
• 41:24
  terms of if you think
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: of...
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you have someone who says,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that the FBI are following me everywhere,
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: I would always start from the...
• 41:38
  position that I believe them right because I don't know and
• 41:43
  then you would have an
• 41:45
  experience of somewhere it absolutely can't be true it's just
• 41:49
  self-evident you know
• 41:52
  budget right they couldn't afford to have that many people fall
• 41:55
  on you at one time
• 41:56
  right for instance I wouldn't say that to them but I might
• 41:59
  think it but it gets
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: down to them well who decides what's objective right
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's really complicated.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: It is complicated.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just wondering,
• 42:12
  because you talk so much about the senses as validating or
• 42:18
  knowing that we are
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: here.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what if your senses are wonky?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then what's the role of intuition?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: What is the role of intuition, do you think?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that...
• 42:36
  We in a lot of our work have discussed intuition as something
• 42:43
  that is not dependable.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: particularly when you're trying to design for a particular population.
• 42:51
  If you don't know the perceptual experience of a person living
• 42:55
  with autism,
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: and if you haven't studied that,
• 42:59
  then I couldn't confidently trust somebody to properly design a
• 43:04
  building for
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: someone with autism.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think design has become incredibly intuitive.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: So many people are doing things
• 43:15
  to try and achieve success in their designs and in their
• 43:19
  buildings,
• 43:20
  for example.
• 43:23
  Having the intention to do that is different from doing it
• 43:26
  well,
• 43:27
  of course.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think in that way, intuition is a challenging thing to rely on.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: Personally, I think intuition has been a hugely valuable thing for me.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it has a tremendous amount of power.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's not worth trying to quantify.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think about intuition?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I got a lot of credentials to justify my intuition.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Can resonate with that.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:11
  And I think like you,
• 44:13
  I have come to learn late in life my own sensitivities and
• 44:21
  diversities.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's come to me very late.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I've experienced a high level of intuition that I've used my
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: professional training to support,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: but it would still be there if I didn't have that professional training.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 44:47
  I think that intuition becomes a strong guiding factor for
• 44:53
  decision-making.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm certainly not in favor of that not being the case.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think that my professional training...
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: taught me to hold onto it lightly.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's another piece of information.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, that keeps it in check.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:20
  You know,
• 45:21
  I had somebody...
• 45:24
  I said to the mother,
• 45:28
  did you have a traumatic birth?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she went into the long story about this traumatic birth she had.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that was...
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: intuition from meeting her son.
• 45:44
  I can't give you credible scientific evidence to why that's the
• 45:49
  case,
• 45:50
  but it was an intuition.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Are you familiar with rebirthing?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I trained with Leonard Orr and LV Orr.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Leonard's now passed in rebirthing in a lot of ways because of that,
• 46:07
  because I was noticing strong intuitions in myself that perhaps
• 46:12
  had to do with
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: before or during or after birth.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think that my
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: The strongest state of my spirituality, I think, is intuition.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have to say more about that?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that intuition doesn't require an explanation.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I acquiesce into...
• 46:46
  a sense of kind of calm and awareness when I notice that things
• 46:56
  in the world or
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: decisions that I'm making or feelings I have just feel intuitive to me.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes they're begging for me to act on them.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes they're not.
• 47:14
  And so I think there's all sorts of signals that are associated
• 47:17
  with intuition.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: And kind of speaking of filters like we were earlier as well,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: the question is,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: how are you managing that?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: And how much are you letting in?
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my belief is also that
• 47:31
  I think a lot of people have all sorts of powers that they
• 47:36
  don't have access to as
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: a result of not believing that they have access to them.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: And perhaps intuition is an incredible tool in that sense.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: And perhaps it does have more value, even scientifically,
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: I believe it does at present.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you sound very at peace and at ease with your intuition.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: So what I see clinically is a lot of people do have gifts and powers,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: but they've no starting point in how to manage and use.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the intuition, it's like, if it's very, very strong,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: They do have a superpower, but how do you manage it?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do you control it?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: How do you tune it in?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there's usually no one around them to guide them with that.
• 48:34
  So it's a case of supporting them learn how to use that gift in
• 48:40
  a way that doesn't consume them.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: and circling back to the anechoic chamber as well,
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: perhaps when things are taken away,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 48:50
  when our lives can be more peaceful or when we can be in a
• 48:53
  state of profound rest,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: perhaps things like intuition do.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: come up and become more obvious.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of people that,
• 49:05
  I talk about the anechoic chamber to an extent as if it's a
• 49:09
  spiritual place because
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: it is to me.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: However,
• 49:13
  I avoid prompting people with that or prompting them with too
• 49:18
  many thoughts around
• 49:18
  meditation because I would like the space to remain somewhat
• 49:22
  neutral in certain
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: cases.
• 49:25
  And many people without being prompted will tell me after
• 49:29
  sessions that they've
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: had,
• 49:30
  I feel like this is a very spiritual room or I feel like I just
• 49:35
  meditated for the
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: first time in my life.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: These are things that,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: especially the piece about meditation,
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: the comment about meditation,
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: you almost can't avoid it.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: Design works properly,
• 49:51
  things work properly when they create an experience without
• 49:55
  telling you they're
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: gonna create an experience,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: without giving instructions,
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: when the thing itself is what creates the response of the outcome.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think intuition among many,
• 50:09
  many other things are perhaps it becomes something that we can
• 50:14
  access more easily
• 50:15
  or see more clearly or meet for the first time when we don't
• 50:21
  have to filter as
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: much,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: when we're not masking in the same way that we usually are.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that seems obvious, you know?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: it was a misread,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: but the god of silence is that,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: and it's like if you can be silent enough,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: then maybe you might be able to hear your intuition.
• 50:44
  It's interesting because in the sort of more older Buddhist
• 50:49
  tradition,
• 50:50
  things like,
• 50:52
  Increased intuition,
• 50:53
  clairvoyance,
• 50:54
  these sort of things,
• 50:54
  they were just seen as byproduct.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was not like nothing to be celebrated or boasted about.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: this is just something that will occur as you become a deeper meditator,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: which I thought was really interesting.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: It is interesting.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: And similarly,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think the meditation community,
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: at least my experience in the meditation community,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: is that there's so much talk about the embodiment of silence.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you...
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: keep with your meditation practice,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: if you are really,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: truly interested and committed to it,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: then you will become more capable of getting into a particular headspace,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: zone,
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: state of stillness.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that could be true.
• 51:45
  I also think there's this other piece to the equation that
• 51:48
  isn't perhaps being
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: accounted for,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: which is,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: if some of us are more
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: perceptually sensitive or more sensitive in general than others,
• 51:56
  who's to say it's even possible to reach a specific state if
• 52:03
  you're overwhelmed?
• 52:05
  So I think that silence has so many different manifestations,
• 52:09
  even acoustically.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one is the experience of being silent as a person,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: going on a Vipassana,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: not speaking.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing is what's around you.
• 52:23
  And,
• 52:24
  you know,
• 52:24
  what the environment is like,
• 52:26
  and is that embodying silence as well?
• 52:30
  Because it is almost arguably just as much a part of the
• 52:34
  equation as you are.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you're the occupant in it.
• 52:43
  I think that the stillness is available all the time if you
• 52:48
  know how to access it
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: or recognize it.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: But what you said about being overwhelmed,
• 52:54
  so my experience my whole life was not understanding what that
• 52:57
  overwhelmingness was
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: about.
• 53:00
  So as I started to tune in to perhaps being hypersensitive to
• 53:05
  sound or smell,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: I had no language for that.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like a clamming up and feeling overwhelmed.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in the last couple of years,
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: when I've become more in tune to that dynamic,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: that's why I was overwhelmed.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like...
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: people talking incessantly on a train.
• 53:25
  And it was just like this...
• 53:28
  Before it would have been just this overwhelming-ness.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's like, oh, I know why.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I can maybe put on a pair of headphones.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that was very liberating.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm thinking of all the people who haven't had that experience,
• 53:42
  who just don't understand why it is so painful or upsetting or
• 53:48
  overwhelming for
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: them.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and realizing that the body is teaching the mind in so many ways.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it goes both ways, as we discussed earlier.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that the meditation community overall is very,
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: very focused on how the mind teaches the body.
• 54:07
  And I would like to see equal attention going to the body
• 54:11
  teaching the mind.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 54:14
  That's the area that we're working with,
• 54:18
  with regard to the anechoic chamber.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: We are depending on the body.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're not depending on the mind.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Emma, that was fascinating.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was very nice to be here.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a pleasure.