Latest / Best of Business / David Norton: Pure Advantage advisor on whether we need to stop using pine trees to offset emissions

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David Norton: Pure Advantage advisor on whether we need to stop using pine trees to offset emissions · Best of Business

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  Speaker 2: If you're one of those people who flies and texts
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  Speaker 2: the yes, I will offset my carbon emissions by planting
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  Speaker 2: a pine tree, thank you very much, and then feel
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  Speaker 2: totally fine about flying, then you might want to listen
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  Speaker 2: to this. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has recommended
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  Speaker 2: a big shakeup in the way that we do forestry
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  Speaker 2: in this country. He's put out a report that recommends
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  Speaker 2: we should stop using pine forest to offset carbon emissions.
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  Speaker 2: He basically thinks we should phase out forestry offsets for
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  Speaker 2: carbon emissions. David Norton is a strategic science advisor with
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  Speaker 2: pure advantage with me tonight, David.
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  Speaker 3: Good evening, Cured, Nice to be here, Thank you, Good.
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  Speaker 2: To have you on the show. So why can't we
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  Speaker 2: keep using pine forest? It seems easy to do and
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  Speaker 2: feels good.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it does seem easy to do and it does
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  Speaker 4: feel good. That the problem, the fundamental problem, is that
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  Speaker 4: we've got to stop producing a mission. We can't offset
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  Speaker 4: our way out of the climate emergency. So I guess
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  Speaker 4: the first reason is that we've also got to stop
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  Speaker 4: producing all the CO two out there.
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  Speaker 2: But if we are going to keep doing it, which,
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  Speaker 2: let's face it, we are going to keep doing for
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  Speaker 2: some time to come, then are we not better off
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  Speaker 2: offsetting it by planting trees, by planting pine?
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  Speaker 3: Is that?
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  Speaker 2: Is that a problem now?
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  Speaker 3: Yes? So that's a really good question.
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  Speaker 4: And the problem with pines is that there's no guarantee
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  Speaker 4: they're going to be permanent. So when you want to
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  Speaker 4: offset something, you want to be sure that carbon is
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  Speaker 4: going to stay in the ground forever, and there is
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  Speaker 4: zero guarantee they're going to be permanent. They'll grow for
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  Speaker 4: thirty forty fifty years, but beyond that we know very
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  Speaker 4: little about how they'll perform. So we'd be clear here
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  Speaker 4: we're talking about permanent radiator pine forests have been planted
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  Speaker 4: for carbon. We're not talking about sustainably managed plantations for timber.
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  Speaker 4: And the real warriors are not going to be permanent.
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  Speaker 4: So it's going to be a liability the guys people
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  Speaker 4: who plant them and made their money over the short
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  Speaker 4: term from the carbon offsets, But who's going to be
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  Speaker 4: liable for the environmental the downstream impacts of those forest collapse?
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  Speaker 4: And of course for the loss in the carbon, And
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  Speaker 4: that's the real concern.
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  Speaker 2: What do you mean collapse? What will happen to them
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  Speaker 2: after that period of time.
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  Speaker 4: Well, there's no evidence to say that a pine forest.
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  Speaker 4: Remember pine trees come from California. They're adapted to the
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  Speaker 4: Californian environment. There is no evidence that pine forest will
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  Speaker 4: stay permanently in the ground in Alteriro and New Zealand.
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  Speaker 4: It's not adapted to our New Zealand environment. And in fact,
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  Speaker 4: was being suggested that as climate change becomes more and
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  Speaker 4: more extreme weather from climate change, that these tall, thin
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  Speaker 4: pine trees that have been carefully selected to grow fast
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  Speaker 4: and sequest lots of carbon, become very prone to wind
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  Speaker 4: throw to all sorts of extreme storm events.
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  Speaker 2: They'll just down fall over.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and so the useless.
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  Speaker 4: So someone's got a liability for the carbon that's been
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  Speaker 4: stored in them. It's an economic cost, probably the government
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  Speaker 4: in the future. But what about all the downstream impacts
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  Speaker 4: that are going to occur when those forests collapse and
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  Speaker 4: impact downstream communities.
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  Speaker 2: So what's the what do we do? I mean the
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  Speaker 2: thing with whenever we talk about climate change, I just
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  Speaker 2: go I don't care, like it's easier for me to
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  Speaker 2: just actually not think about it and carry on with
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  Speaker 2: my life.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what I mean totally.
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  Speaker 4: Look, look, we've got to try and reduce our emissions.
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  Speaker 4: That that there's no two ways of doubt that, and
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  Speaker 4: every little step helps of that. But I think we've
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  Speaker 4: got to think about New Zealand and what New Zealand
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  Speaker 4: is facing. So cycling Gabriel, you know, is going to
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  Speaker 4: happen again and again and again, and it's not a
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  Speaker 4: one off event, and we've got to start thinking how
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  Speaker 4: do we build resilient landscapes, How do we make our catchments,
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  Speaker 4: our landscapes resilient to these storm events and forests are
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  Speaker 4: really important, but we need permanent native forests. And I'm
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  Speaker 4: involved with Pure Advantage in this project called Recloaking Papatua Nuku,
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  Speaker 4: which is proposing that we restore, regenerate, assist the development
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  Speaker 4: of two million hectares of native forest, not in big blocks,
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  Speaker 4: but carefully interwoven through landscapes in New Zealand to try
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  Speaker 4: and build landscape resilience and have those native forests will
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  Speaker 4: also draw down carbon.
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  Speaker 2: As well as not as much as the pine though,
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  Speaker 2: right that's the problem with NAIs and they take so much.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, but they'll do it over the longer term and
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  Speaker 4: they'll help build up our resilient landscapes. And the Commission
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  Speaker 4: is quite clear in his report that you know, native
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  Speaker 4: forests can actually provide all these benefits and of course
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  Speaker 4: they help bio diversity the part of who.
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  Speaker 2: We are who pays for them.
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  Speaker 4: Well, again he recommends by taking forestry out of the
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  Speaker 4: e t s, it's going to make the emitters of
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  Speaker 4: carbon Dix side have to pay more to buy their
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  Speaker 4: carbon credits from government and that money then gets invested
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  Speaker 4: back into doing to doing.
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  Speaker 2: Forestry cross and then we pay more. We have higher
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  Speaker 2: power bills presumably whatever it might be, you know.
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  Speaker 4: Well not none of it's renewably generated. And I mean
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  Speaker 4: that's the whole thing. The whole idea of the emissions
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  Speaker 4: scheme is to get us to change our behavior.
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  Speaker 2: And I suppose, but then my petrol will be more
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  Speaker 2: expensive on it.
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  Speaker 3: Then maybe we need to be have more evs and
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  Speaker 3: use use use.
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  Speaker 2: Others have got a story for you, David. Have you
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  Speaker 2: read the story today? Go ahead to read it. There's
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  Speaker 2: a study from Aukland University. Basically, we can't have the
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  Speaker 2: pine forest. We can't have the evs. I'm banging my
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  Speaker 2: head against the wall here, David. I don't know what
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  Speaker 2: to do.
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  Speaker 3: About.
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  Speaker 4: No, it's not about tuning out. It's about about looking
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  Speaker 4: at everything we do and thinking about all those individual
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  Speaker 4: small actions can all help in the long run. But
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  Speaker 4: I think to me and my expertise as ecology, as
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  Speaker 4: a forest ecologist and to me, we need to build
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  Speaker 4: resilient communities, resilient landscapes in New Zealand and native forests,
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  Speaker 4: you know, interwoven through our primary production systems, our farms
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  Speaker 4: and our horticultural areas can really help build that and
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  Speaker 4: it's going to be in the long term, and it's
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  Speaker 4: what we all want all. We all relate to cody
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  Speaker 4: or to cabbage trees, or to cattarou and toy you know,
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  Speaker 4: it's all part of who we are.
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  Speaker 2: And I don't know how much I relate to a
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  Speaker 2: cabbage tree, but I certainly I think if we're going
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  Speaker 2: to go down that track, I think I would relate
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  Speaker 2: more to a cabbage tree than I would to a pine.
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  Speaker 2: That's a fair point. Hey, thanks for coming on the show, David.
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  Speaker 2: Interesting stuff. David Norton, pure advantage Strategic Science Advisor talking
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  Speaker 2: there about the Parliamentary Commission for the Environment, saying that
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  Speaker 2: you know pine plantations, not the plantations, but pine paddocks,
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  Speaker 2: paddicks filled with pine not necessarily the best thing in
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  Speaker 2: the long run.
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