Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Understanding Cats With Una Hartzell-Baird | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #153 |

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Understanding Cats With Una Hartzell-Baird | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #153 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian.
• 0:03
  We've podcast. Today's guest is a business
• 0:05
  owner, entrepreneur CEO of Clone Dom's.
• 0:08
  I think I said that correctly and name is UNA Hartzell bed.
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  She's welcome to the show how you did.
• 0:16
  Thank you so much. I am fantastic.
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  And you have passed the first test, which is pronouncing.
• 0:22
  My last name is spot on. Excellent, 10 points. 10 out of
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  10 and points to Gryffindor. Fantastic.
• 0:29
  No, I mean, yeah. I always try to make an effort
• 0:31
  with people's names because it's that name it's, you know, really
• 0:35
  do it. It's funny like when you start
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  having a conversation with someone because I get this a
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  lot. I mean, it's not my name is not
• 0:42
  difficult to say but the thing that always bothers me that
• 0:45
  people do with, my name is on forms or eats Jenna.
• 0:49
  Actually, here's a really good example of what I mean.
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  So my name is just Christian Reef.
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  That's it. You go anywhere online.
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  That's how my name is. That's My Name.
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  Okay, but people take it upon themselves to To add like an S
• 1:01
  at the end of Reeves or, you know, that I can forgive the
• 1:05
  spellings of Christian because it's about like a million
• 1:07
  different ways. That's fine.
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  But plus it's for I don't even understand the spelling of my
• 1:11
  name is got a silent h. Why English language, but yeah,
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  that that somehow bothers me because I have most of the time.
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  I just let it go. But every once in a while, if
• 1:24
  I've been on someone show, I'll just be like like I had recently
• 1:27
  always on someone's shoulders like they introduced me as
• 1:32
  Christian Reeves and I was like It's not my name.
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  It's like it's not yeah, that's not my name.
• 1:40
  Lumen song goes through my head a recent.
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  Well, yes, totally and if someone named Luna who, so I'm
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  originally from Bosnia. I was born in Sarajevo and my
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  family came to the states as refugees.
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  And so, my name Luna is really not super uncommon and you can
• 2:03
  hear it across many. In countries, but in the u.s.
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  Because that new sound is not as familiar.
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  It's always Yuna or Puma because the, you and the n and it's
• 2:16
  just, yeah, if it can be messy, but names are totally important,
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  right? What they find the M.
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  This is an end. Well, you know, I was cursed
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  should be born after Uma Thurman.
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  So it's kind of top of mind and people try to make those
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  connections in their heads. And sometimes it doesn't quite
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  work out. So okay.
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  So you said like you were born originally imposed you and your
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  family moved over. So, what age were you?
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  And when you moved over, well, I mean, since I'm 15 now and that
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  was 30 years ago, obviously, well, before I was born, I was
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  actually nine when we moved to the states.
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  So, okay. Yeah.
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  It was it was interesting because I spoke zero English at
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  that time. Like, I could sing the ABC song.
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  I could say hi and like hello and that was pretty much it.
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  And I got dropped into summer school English as a new language
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  classes and then dropped into third grade.
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  And I sometimes think back on those times and like how did I
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  get through my day? I understood nothing in those
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  early days, but I was really fortunate to have some great
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  teachers at that time. And of course it's like an age
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  where it's very easy for children to pick up language and
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  And I didn't have any other options, everything in my life
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  was English oriented. So people find it really
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  surprising. When they find out that I'm not
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  originally from the states because I speak unaccented
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  Midwestern broadcaster English. I get, I get where you're coming
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  from on that. Like, I grew up in Northwest
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  London on a suburb. So basically, just No in the
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  capital. Like, whenever something you say
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  to someone who doesn't live in London, you said, London that I
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  will normally. But when they see, like, where
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  I'm actually from the lat, okay, is to briefly explain London
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  London's like I suppose like any major city where you've got,
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  like, your core, what you identify as being London, and
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  then there's where everyone else lives.
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  And that's where most people live.
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  That's where I lived. And it's yeah, it's fine.
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  It's, it is what it is. I lived in a fairly decent area.
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  But as far as the axon is concerned, that's the point I
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  want to bring up actually, is like, I think.
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  That takes a great deal of effort and it's influenced by
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  different things. I think part of it was the way
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  my mum spoke part of it was the school I went to and then, you
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  know, just being surrounded by different people in different
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  areas and stuff. So you pick up on these
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  different things but point being you have to spend like a lot of
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  time trying to master it and particularly if you're doing
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  anything that involves like marketing or sales or whatever
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  and we'll get on to Like what what your business is all about
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  in your business career in a bit, but like just want to say
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  like on that note. I think when you're trying to
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  advertise yourself in a business capacity or get that across you
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  kind of like I suppose subconsciously have to start
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  doing that and then you realize consciously you're doing it.
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  You're like, okay. Yeah.
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  This is I need to do this soon. But my message is clearer.
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  I suppose in the most important thing.
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  But right. Yeah and I suppose like for
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  yourself like growing up. The first sort of obstacle is
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  okay. I mean this foreign country and
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  a kid, then obviously you don't think about things in this but
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  maybe some kids, don't know, but most kids, I suppose don't think
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  about these things. These, this deeply it's like why
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  I'm in this situation, you know, you do your best, what the
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  situation, you're in, right? But the key being to try and be
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  understood, you know, I went out when I was living abroad, it was
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  the same thing. You know, how can I be
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  understood? How can I best get to a point
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  where people can And me, I can get the things that I want and
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  need and then we can worry about, you know, exact
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  inflections of way things, sound that everything.
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  But firstly, just to be understood.
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  Yes. Let's communicate the message
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  appropriately. So was that, I mean, you said
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  you had some good teachers, but was there like a good sort of
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  support network overall? Like how quickly we were able to
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  make that transition? So, really within the first
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  couple of years of being in school, and I went to public
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  school. So this was and I actually
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  credit at end of My Success to the public school system that I
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  was part of because of the teachers that they were that
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  were there. And the resources we had
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  especially with the English as a new language program, which is
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  always been so interesting to me because it's not like you have
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  someone who necessarily speaks your native language who can
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  kind of help explain and Coach you on what the Target language
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  that you're learning is about. It's just these people who
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  learned how to teach English as a new language and we did a lot
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  of reading like them reading out loud to me and me reading to
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  them likewise playing games. I remember, this was my
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  introduction to the board game Candyland, which is like a
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  quintessential quintessential like children's game.
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  And this was the thing Shoots and Ladders and Candy Land.
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  Where a huge Part of how I learned to speak English.
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  In addition to watching movies, listening to music.
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  We, we didn't really have cable and like now, cables, barely
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  even a thing, but we didn't really have access other, than
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  to, the public channels. And so I watched a ton of public
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  broadcasting growing up, which you know, Sesame, Street, Rogers
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  Neighborhood, all of these places that had what would be
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  considered really proper English.
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  Slow speech repetition, especially as children re-watch
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  episodes. The things.
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  And so this was, you know, one of the main ways that I picked
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  up on the language and the teachers that I had were really
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  supportive in terms of meeting me where I was right?
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  Because entering third grade, I really didn't speak the language
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  at all. So my assignments had to be at
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  the have a little more grace, dude, them I had missed out on
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  the way English is taught in terms of phonics.
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  And so all of my life, I've read basically understanding like
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  maybe about 40% phonics and the rest was just a lot of exposure
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  and learning through reading through music, things like that.
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  But but when it came to, how quickly I caught on, within the
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  first couple of years, they decided it didn't need English
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  as a new language support anymore.
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  And I was testing above my classmates on average.
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  When it came to standardized tests, which tells you a little
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  bit about my knowledge, but also tells you that I'm a decent
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  standardized test takers. So it's kind of a mixed bag, but
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  super intelligent get my test scores, amazing.
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  It's amazing. Yeah, but I love to talk.
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  And so this was really a way for me being able to communicate
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  with other people was a huge draw and so it just kind of came
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  out of that and came out of tons of practice.
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  And I also love to read. And in my school, we didn't have
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  air conditioning at the time except in the Prairie.
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  So I became a library Helper because I am a smart lady even
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  when I was a nine and ten-year-old.
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  And and so in this just really gave me tons of exposure.
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  And some of my fondest childhood memories are really, of time.
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  I spent at the school library at the public libraries and the
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  access to books and information back in my day.
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  When we couldn't look things up on the internet and really
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  needed to like find an encyclopedia and learn about the
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  Dewey Decimal System and how to find information in the library.
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  Yeah, I remember those days. Those were not fudgy those
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  encyclopedias. We keep that they were kind of
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  fascinating as well. But just remember, just looking
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  for a dictionary ever trying to find the right work.
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  Although I don't know if thesaurus.
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  Because I loved the for Soros to this day.
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  I still love the for Soros. Yeah, there's a writing tool for
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  whatever, especially for songwriting, whatever, you know,
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  but, yeah, I just wanted to pick up on what you were saying about
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  learning languages as far as Practice element is concerned.
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  I think that's, that's really true.
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  I mean, you at least need a few people in your life around you
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  that you can frequently talk with or you need to be living in
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  that place. I remember because I lived in
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  Europe for a few years and I kind of naively thought our
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  well, I still learn the language because I want to but I probably
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  won't need it. I'll probably be out of English
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  and here's the funny thing. So I was learning anyway,
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  because I wanted to because I love languages and culture and
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  history, Allah, all that stuff, just a big nerd basically.
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  And then I'd find myself in these situations where someone
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  wouldn't speak English and I'm like, oh, Our then and enough to
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  so, dig into what I knew, which was always broken, but they knew
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  what I was meant and then I'd get buyer and I would sit there
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  reflecting on it. As let's say I'm on a coach
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  journey and I'm, you know, they've understood me and I'm on
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  the coach now, and I'm sitting there thinking.
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  Wow, if I didn't speak the language, I would have been
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  screwed then and I'd constantly hear these other foreigners in
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  the country. Be like, oh, yeah, you know,
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  it's easy, you know, I get by all the time.
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  Without and I'm thinking, well, you must like, never leave the
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  city center that ever by would even have those problems even in
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  the city centre, which I don't know.
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  Maybe I was just exposed to it, but more than other, no luck of
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  the draw of every, I don't know, but very strange.
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  But yeah, anyway, the pretty girl, who knows?
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  Maybe it was just someone who decided to mess with you and was
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  like, you, I don't speak English.
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  What are you gonna do? Here's what would happen, right?
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  So every, I lived in Estonia for three Years, right?
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  And in Estonian went well, the main, the first one of the first
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  phrases I learnt was because they're ugly.
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  The English are good. Which means can you speak a
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  start English? Right?
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  And because my pronunciation was good.
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  I think they just assumed I was Estonian.
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  So imagine someone like if you assume that someone's of your,
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  you know, from the same country as you and they say, can you
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  speak this foreign language? You're obviously going to be
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  like, yeah. But why, you know and then I'd
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  be like, oh great and then I'd start speaking in English and
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  then that freak them out. They got oh, oh, okay.
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  You're a foreigner know what? But I understood like that.
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  There's a bit of. Yeah, I mean it's learn
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  languages is It's I don't know. I mean, it's how do you fight?
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  Okay, so you learn? Is it Bosnian would be the
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  language? And yes, right.
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  So that's that your mother tongue if you like and then you
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  come to the States, you learn English.
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  Was there like a point where? You know, you fell.
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  Did you ever feel like you were kind of speaking something which
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  wasn't like you per se? Or did you ever feel like the
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  jet was ever a point where you sort of lost when you weren't
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  speaking Bosnian anymore? And it was just English or like
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  told us a little bit about like how it felt speaking this
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  language. And then, you know, do you?
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  I mean, do you still speak was named with family and Etc?
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  Like talk to us a little bit better.
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  Sure. So so my parents even My sister
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  and I were totally fluent in English.
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  Always insisted on speaking Bosnian at home, so that we
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  would keep that up as a language.
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  So to them, we speak it, not as well because as children like we
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  really didn't see the value youth is wasted on the young for
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  sure. And this ability to keep up the
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  language, it made us different. Right?
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  And when you're, you know, 9, 10 11 years old into your team's,
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  like being different is not Not, okay.
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  And so that really like we really pushed back on that.
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  But what I've found interesting over the years is that, you
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  know, I can, I can understand it super well because it's a
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  phonetic language. I can read pretty much anything
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  in it. And this was also part of what
• 14:48
  was hard about English because Bosnian has a phonetic alphabet.
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  And so each and every letter just makes that single sound and
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  even letters that look like combinations like and and J
• 15:00
  saying yeah, but they only ever Say yeah, and there's no
• 15:04
  exception and there's no other rules or anything around that,
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  so that it's really intuitive. Like as long as you know, the
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  sounds each of the letters makes you can read anything with
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  English that was very, very different for us and we would
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  still speak it and we would occasionally travel back to
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  Bosnia to visit family. And so I would find myself
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  watching subtitled TV shows, which I think is far more common
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  in Europe than in the United States, although thanks to like
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  Netflix. In the world wide web.
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  Now, you do get more exposure to International art rather than
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  just us based things. And so I would start off right,
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  reading captions, because I'm watching a telenovela that is
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  not dubbed and I need to be reading the subtitles in Bosnian
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  and I would start and I'd be like missing tons of words in
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  there because I couldn't read as fast, but by the end of our
• 15:58
  vacation, I was just keeping on top of it because it was pretty
• 16:02
  much a daily. We practice right on reading and
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  speeding up my ability to read. And so, every like summer when
• 16:08
  we would go, that would be my course, is like, as I was
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  watching TV, I'd be reading, and I'd be missing things.
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  And then by the end of it, I'd be catching up in these days.
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  What's really interesting is like, it's a total code-switch,
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  and I've read about this some, as well, and totally relate to
• 16:27
  this experience where I there are parts of my personality that
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  are 100%. Different.
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  If I'm speaking to someone in Bosnian versus if I'm speaking
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  to someone in English and the like the only time and it's
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  really really all so strange like to my sister and I we use
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  English unless there is something sensitive that we
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  don't want someone else like you're out in public and we need
• 16:50
  to say something, right? That's the only time that we use
• 16:53
  Bosnian with each other and it still it's like the gears in my
• 16:57
  brain are grinding and telling me like this isn't who you are
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  with this person. It's like it's hard to switch to
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  the Bosnian brain when I'm with this person that I typically
• 17:08
  speak English with and especially since we have a close
• 17:11
  relationship and spend quite a bit of time together.
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  So yeah, so that has been my experience and kind of like
• 17:17
  observing that as it's happening to me.
• 17:19
  It feels so strange. I know what you mean.
• 17:24
  Like there were people I knew when I lived in Estonia that I
• 17:28
  only ever spoke Estonian with. I never spoke English with.
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  And some of them knew English, by the way, they just insisted
• 17:38
  on speaking of studying with me, which is fine.
• 17:40
  Like, I understood. But it's like, no, I'm so bad at
• 17:44
  this, but yet that you're right. You're into something like,
• 17:48
  there's something about that. And yeah, I often find as well.
• 17:53
  Like, sometimes it's just quicker to say things in another
• 17:56
  language than it is. Like, I find, I remember one
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  time. I was on a farm.
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  Okay, so there's an island off the coast of Estonia called
• 18:04
  sorry Emma. So there's there's two islands
• 18:06
  in this one of the islands off and lot of people go there for
• 18:11
  the summer holidays, lot people owned Farms there and I happen
• 18:14
  to be on the farm. Visiting different people
• 18:16
  working on a farm on point, all sorts of fun ensued.
• 18:21
  Anyway, it was one particular summer and there was a guy there
• 18:24
  group of friends. And there was a guy there, who
• 18:27
  was, I believe a language teacher or some description
• 18:30
  young guy, but he knew like, Nine languages credible and he
• 18:34
  was talking about how languages work which, you know, it's a
• 18:37
  fascinated by this and he basically explained and it's so
• 18:42
  true. It's the best description I've
• 18:43
  ever heard of English. Because the one thing I learned
• 18:45
  about Estonian was, it was very straightforward.
• 18:47
  Like a lot of European languages tend to be quite
• 18:50
  straightforward. That's where sometimes people
• 18:52
  think that things come across as blunt, not necessarily as people
• 18:56
  want to get straight to the point, right?
• 18:58
  And don't get me wrong, different languages.
• 19:01
  Like English and Russian very expressive, you know, very
• 19:05
  expressive lots of ways of saying the same thing and Etc,
• 19:11
  but when he was talking about English, he basically explained
• 19:13
  like oh, you know, so sternly and maybe is like this and you
• 19:16
  know, polish is like this, but English is like you get them,
• 19:23
  then you finally get that he was right.
• 19:25
  He's onto it because sometimes I try and I try to be as
• 19:29
  straightforward as a can be, for the most Depends on the context
• 19:33
  if we're having a conversation that we are now, I think it's
• 19:35
  better to be a big expressive and tell a story.
• 19:38
  I mean that's kind of the whole point, right?
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  And sometimes, you know, when someone just says to you like
• 19:43
  like, tell me the truth, give it to me straight.
• 19:46
  That's the time to just get to the point straight away.
• 19:51
  And with English. I sometimes find that to
• 19:53
  challenge. Sometimes you need to explain a
• 19:55
  lot of different things to kind of paint a picture of what you
• 19:58
  really mean because sometimes it can get lost when you're
• 20:01
  Unexplained something or whatever.
• 20:03
  And every language is different in that respect.
• 20:06
  Like they all function slightly different ways.
• 20:09
  And yes, this is fascinating and and then they'll be things.
• 20:13
  I'm sure you can appreciate this as well.
• 20:14
  Which only makes sense in that culture.
• 20:17
  Absolutely. Yeah, I think to a great extent
• 20:20
  culture informs so much of language but language can also
• 20:24
  very much impact culture. So it's just this kind of
• 20:27
  ongoing not even so much of a circle as a figure 8 because
• 20:30
  there's a lot of cross. It's over and there's no really
• 20:33
  clear delineation between the two but it can get quite messy
• 20:37
  in that in that as well. And I think another thing is,
• 20:41
  like, being really intentional about the way you use words and
• 20:45
  which words you choose, when you do have more than one option,
• 20:48
  and how you can really structure.
• 20:52
  I think, in English, this, of course, is the case as well.
• 20:55
  But like, you can really structure the way you want
• 20:59
  someone to perceive what you're saying.
• 21:01
  Based on the words that you're using, right?
• 21:04
  You can talk about the same subject in so many different
• 21:07
  ways and just like a slight tweak of your word choice.
• 21:12
  And that also really makes me think about like when we the way
• 21:15
  we use language, right? Like our teenagers and are baby
• 21:18
  boomers. I'll speak English, but they
• 21:20
  speak different dialects of English and how like teenagers
• 21:24
  when they are speaking, they create their own language,
• 21:28
  right? And it's wrong, even as as an
• 21:31
  adult like Like, even if I understand the terminology, that
• 21:35
  that a teenager is using, it is not right for me to use.
• 21:38
  It is not mine to use ago. You mean, and I didn't totally
• 21:46
  internalize this until I was watching a TV show on Netflix
• 21:49
  recently where this was happening, and I was like, I
• 21:51
  know that this is a little bit like farcical anyway, because
• 21:55
  that's, you know, that's the art of this show but like, oh, I get
• 21:59
  it. I get it.
• 22:00
  We're not supposed. You use that language.
• 22:02
  That is there's this is how they're carving their place in
• 22:05
  the world and taking some ownership and control and a
• 22:09
  time, where many things feel very out of control for a lot of
• 22:13
  teenagers and where they are trying to be more independent.
• 22:15
  So they have their own coded language in the same ways,
• 22:19
  Industries do, right. You can go to an industry
• 22:21
  conference and no one is speaking English, right?
• 22:24
  Because they're all speaking in acronyms and initialisms and
• 22:27
  they know what they're talking about.
• 22:28
  But if you're not familiar with their language, you have no
• 22:31
  clue. What's going on?
• 22:33
  I'm not come from the business world so I can totally relate to
• 22:36
  that. And the see the difference is
• 22:38
  with teenagers, and did those acronyms and whatever?
• 22:41
  Sometimes it's to make things quicker.
• 22:42
  Sometimes it's just you know, we all have that as you said,
• 22:45
  generationally the difference business conferences as business
• 22:49
  people. I'm sorry.
• 22:50
  A lot of the time they're doing that to sound more.
• 22:58
  Yeah. I said I get is more intelligent
• 23:00
  than they actually are or saying.
• 23:01
  Something when the not everyone, but in many cases, I'll give you
• 23:05
  an example. There's this guy raises his
• 23:09
  name, something cynic or something is like a major C?
• 23:12
  Vitamin cynic. Yes, you know the guy I'm
• 23:15
  talking about and I drank the Kool-Aid occasionally.
• 23:18
  I did, you know what? When I first saw this guy, I
• 23:22
  thought he was a bond villain. Nice, like he's a successful
• 23:27
  businessman. I appreciate, you know, he does
• 23:29
  what he does. All these motivational talks,
• 23:31
  right? Right, but then the few times
• 23:33
  are just sat down and listened to, it really just sat down and
• 23:36
  listened to him. Read everything from its body
• 23:38
  language. The things he said the way he
• 23:41
  spoke, how he structures his conversations?
• 23:44
  And I feel I listened to a few other people talk about him as
• 23:47
  well. And I realized he's one of those
• 23:50
  people that speaks but says nothing.
• 23:55
  You have a point and he gets to the point.
• 23:57
  Right? But what he does is he takes you
• 24:01
  on this like long long long, a story that will get you there
• 24:05
  and look, don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with
• 24:06
  storytelling, right? If it's meaningful and real, if
• 24:14
  you tell a story and it's real and people can see the in the
• 24:18
  sincerity and what you're saying, they all listen and I
• 24:20
  appreciate it. Maybe not, everyone will love
• 24:22
  it. But most people Because people
• 24:25
  we're not idiots. We can see sincerity.
• 24:26
  We can feel it. We know when someone's trying to
• 24:30
  pull the wool over our eyes, right?
• 24:32
  And when people like that, I feel they try so desperately to
• 24:37
  kind of paint this idea of hey, it's okay.
• 24:40
  Come here. I'll teach you, you know, how
• 24:43
  you need to be in. This is how it is and when I was
• 24:46
  in this situation and this was happening, but another this is
• 24:49
  what we did when I had that, he doesn't particular thing where
• 24:52
  he goes always the same thing. I challenge you to find any
• 24:55
  speech. Rate doesn't do this.
• 24:57
  It will have it, will sit here, sit down and the guy lost him.
• 24:59
  A question about great question and then I'll go.
• 25:03
  So I was sitting here with 10 or so high-profile Business
• 25:07
  Leaders. It's always like tenho
• 25:09
  high-profile people or like the leader of this country or
• 25:14
  something. Never give names ever.
• 25:16
  So there's no way of being able to check if any of this actually
• 25:18
  happened. So I think is my design, but
• 25:22
  that's how I do it. And the thing is that people get
• 25:25
  stuck in it. Yeah, I think it's you always
• 25:28
  got me weary like you listen to, with regards to these like these
• 25:31
  business conferences business that because some people are
• 25:34
  worth listening to some people, you know.
• 25:37
  And I think that again, like I said, trying to repeat myself
• 25:40
  too much but it does come down to sincerity.
• 25:44
  Yeah, when I know when I tell a story, I know one of the first
• 25:47
  things that goes through my head is, yeah, there might be some
• 25:49
  people that might not believe me, but I feel confident in what
• 25:52
  I'm saying. I know that this happened and if
• 25:54
  they questioned me I can give them specific details and then
• 25:57
  OK, you know, because let's be real, right.
• 26:01
  It's very easy to lie. But once someone questions you
• 26:04
  and starts poking holes in your argument very Difficult to
• 26:08
  quickly lie and come up with a constructed lie.
• 26:11
  And then remember about the lies, you've taught.
• 26:13
  This is why you should never lie.
• 26:19
  Yeah, you know what? I think you just put your finger
• 26:22
  on what it is that has always bothered me about Simon's work
• 26:27
  and like I read the book, right? Start with why?
• 26:29
  And I was like, but this case isn't actually how things go.
• 26:34
  You might, you might at some point, find a why that you can
• 26:38
  leverage, but it may not necessarily be the thing that
• 26:42
  you started with. And some things you just do.
• 26:44
  And there is no. Why other than that you want the
• 26:46
  end result of like making money. In your life easier.
• 26:50
  Some other thing. I'm not thinking of right now,
• 26:52
  right? And it's just I just had so much
• 26:54
  trouble, really connecting with his message.
• 26:58
  Obviously, he's found, he's found an audience out there.
• 27:02
  But like the person I connect with is brene brown and if we're
• 27:06
  going to talk about sincerity, I feel like she's the antithesis
• 27:12
  of, you know, like Brave leadership and vulnerability and
• 27:17
  all of these things are the antithesis.
• 27:18
  Of this like tiny book and superficial research in my
• 27:25
  opinion. I agree with you and I don't
• 27:28
  wanna spend the whole podcast going on about this guy.
• 27:30
  But I do, I do want to throw another thing in there.
• 27:32
  Like this story that came to me as we were speaking.
• 27:35
  There's one particular story, he told right where it was like a
• 27:40
  situation where he's apparently in some sort of meeting and he
• 27:45
  you know, he hits he does this thing where he Just to kind of
• 27:49
  get the, the other person on board to like him, right?
• 27:53
  It's like haha, you know, I was in a business meeting, you know,
• 27:57
  like we all hate business meetings, right?
• 28:00
  Sit there and don't know what's going on, you know, and like
• 28:06
  this sounds really mean if you go watch his stuff, you'll see
• 28:09
  what I mean is, I'm not, I'm not making this up.
• 28:12
  Loads of people have come across the problem with this, right.
• 28:16
  You should never try and like get people to like you.
• 28:18
  Should just be yourself be real be sincere and because people
• 28:23
  love you or hate you either way, but people appreciate sincerity.
• 28:27
  As you said there are people that do that and and that will
• 28:30
  come through and more people will be willing to listen to
• 28:33
  your message and what you have to say, cause you're being
• 28:35
  sincere and that's inspiring. When you're like this going,
• 28:39
  you're making up stories like the one I'm going to tell it.
• 28:42
  It's like why like, I don't know maybe it did happen.
• 28:45
  But it just the way he tells it to sounds wrong like he's in
• 28:48
  Meeting apparently, and he doesn't understand what's going
• 28:53
  on. Right, fair enough.
• 28:55
  Okay. So he, you know, ask a question.
• 28:59
  He says, hey, could you explain this?
• 29:01
  I didn't get this blah, blah, blah, right?
• 29:04
  And apparently then, By some stroke of Miracle.
• 29:10
  Suddenly, everyone in the room is putting their hand up and go.
• 29:13
  Oh, yeah, I didn't understand it either.
• 29:15
  Oh, I didn't understand. It just sounds like something
• 29:17
  from a movie. It's not right?
• 29:19
  Because that's not look that's not how real life Works.
• 29:22
  Real life Works. People are people, you know know
• 29:27
  about professionalism. What does that really mean?
• 29:29
  Professionalism is like Trying not to get personal feelings
• 29:35
  involved with business and to think about the bigger message.
• 29:40
  And not and try to do good business, like that's kind of at
• 29:44
  the core of it. Right?
• 29:46
  But the reality is, there is always a motion involved in
• 29:50
  business in everything that we do.
• 29:52
  The key is to kind of keep control of it because that's in
• 29:56
  a part. How you keep leverage?
• 29:58
  That's, you know, for example, I've worked in in certain
• 30:02
  companies where, you know, someone loses their temper and
• 30:05
  they shout someone berate them and their manager or something.
• 30:09
  Most people looking at that and see it, for what it is, which is
• 30:12
  that manager is now lost their power.
• 30:15
  They don't have because they've they've that's not a
• 30:19
  professional way to deal with your problems, professional way
• 30:22
  to deal with your problems is to sit and talk with people and
• 30:26
  communicate that message and if they don't get it straight away,
• 30:32
  try again, they don't You know, you call it quits, you do
• 30:36
  whatever, you know, that's business, but it's like, and I
• 30:40
  understand, like, don't get me wrong it in business, like
• 30:42
  certain things happen that are unfair their own, just what
• 30:45
  unjust and stuff. And you do have to call that out
• 30:49
  and I dressed up but like for example in that example that
• 30:56
  that's Annette guy gave like I can I've been in a situation
• 31:00
  like that. Before if you question the
• 31:01
  speaker, the first thing I probably say is Why are you
• 31:05
  interrupting me? Like save the questions to the
• 31:07
  end? That would be number one or
• 31:08
  number two, it be like well, I don't have time like because he
• 31:12
  what he said it was basically it was being explained in really
• 31:15
  complex terminology and he needed it to be done down a
• 31:17
  little bit which is that's not unreasonable.
• 31:19
  Right? But the reality is if it's
• 31:22
  something like really complex asked to get the meeting notes
• 31:26
  afterwards and sit for it and go for it, you know, like stuff
• 31:29
  like that holds up the meeting for maybe some other people that
• 31:33
  do understand and get And you know what?
• 31:35
  I mean, like, I'm not saying you shouldn't put your hand up and
• 31:39
  ask questions and stuff. But I just hear something like
• 31:42
  that and I see the way he speaks and I have to sing it so many
• 31:47
  times over the years when it's been, especially when you get
• 31:50
  like a comp, like a manager who's introducing, like a new
• 31:55
  project that everyone's going to work on or like they're talking
• 31:57
  about but a particular particular like Financial
• 31:59
  quarter and how we how we been and and they'll say you know,
• 32:04
  this is How it's been. And this is what we're heading
• 32:06
  towards. And you're sitting there
• 32:06
  thinking. Well, I've been working on this
• 32:09
  project for the last six months and my experience was not that
• 32:13
  my experience was. This was hell, and that was what
• 32:16
  everyone else is experience was. But what your painting is, this
• 32:20
  idyllic picture that everything was great and Rosie and it's
• 32:23
  like, what, what? So I don't know.
• 32:28
  I mean, maybe it's just that one particular guy.
• 32:32
  There's plenty of business speakers that are The real deal.
• 32:38
  Have you talked to have you done much, Tim public speaking as in
• 32:42
  like talking about, you know, your successes in business and
• 32:47
  what you've learnt for Business Etcetera.
• 32:49
  Yeah. I've done public speaking, both
• 32:51
  in terms of business related things.
• 32:55
  But in also my personal story, especially because where I am
• 32:59
  locally I've helped to work with the organization that was The
• 33:05
  sponsoring nonprofit who helped my family get set up here and
• 33:09
  they had a large a milestone anniversary, a few years back
• 33:13
  that I actually did some speaking around that around our
• 33:17
  experience, as refugees in my personal experience, as a child
• 33:21
  coming to the u.s. And then also, I've given
• 33:24
  presentations like that to other companies as part of their
• 33:27
  diversity equity and inclusion trainings.
• 33:30
  And I feel like to do that is also a point of privilege
• 33:33
  because I'm white young and female and these are things that
• 33:40
  feel more approachable to others.
• 33:42
  And so they can look at me and be like, oh, the success story
• 33:45
  right while also ignoring systemic racism and other issues
• 33:49
  that don't allow other people to succeed.
• 33:53
  In the same ways. I had the benefit of being able
• 33:56
  to blend in visually with a group in power in the place that
• 34:00
  I came to write and many other people when they make these
• 34:04
  decisions these Awful gut-wrenching decisions to leave
• 34:06
  their home for their own safety to leave the place that they
• 34:10
  call home. May be choosing a lesser evil
• 34:14
  and not actually something better for themselves.
• 34:18
  And so I feel like that's such a huge part of when I talk as well
• 34:22
  as to acknowledge that privilege in to say like hey, you're
• 34:24
  looking at me and you're feeling really great about the story.
• 34:27
  But also, let's not forget that all people deserve to have
• 34:30
  dignity food and shelter Health Care, you know, access to clean
• 34:34
  water and Medicine. Listen and regardless of what
• 34:36
  they look like where they come from or what you believe their
• 34:39
  value is because inherently as human beings on this planet, we
• 34:42
  have value and whether we agree or disagree on how things should
• 34:47
  be done, right? These are some Basics.
• 34:50
  And please remember that, there are people who don't look like
• 34:53
  me, who are doing, you know, who have these struggles, who have
• 34:56
  increased struggles, because of that.
• 34:58
  And I know my parents were, you know, taken advantage of, and
• 35:02
  discriminated against because they Have as good of English,
• 35:06
  right? And when you hear someone
• 35:08
  speaking broken or accented English, you make assumptions
• 35:12
  about who that person is, right. And you don't necessarily know.
• 35:16
  You don't know. Intelligence level from
• 35:17
  someone's ability to speak a language.
• 35:19
  They're not necessarily correlated in the way that you
• 35:22
  think, right? Because there's also an aspect
• 35:24
  of opportunity there. Right?
• 35:26
  Did they have the opportunity? Do they have access to, you
• 35:31
  know, to schooling and adequate ways?
• 35:33
  Do they have the time as an adult?
• 35:34
  Not coming as a refugee or an immigrant to do this or are they
• 35:38
  surviving and helping their families to survive in that in
• 35:41
  that respect? So, I'm I, like I mentioned, I
• 35:45
  love talking and I love language and I never outgrew the phase of
• 35:50
  childhood were puns, are just hilarious and the greatest humor
• 35:54
  and this is why condoms exists today.
• 35:58
  Because I had a cat that wanted to like he had overactive ear
• 36:03
  wax glands and truly. This was the most unfortunate
• 36:08
  cat. I have ever had enter my life
• 36:11
  because when we got him from a shelter, we were just going to
• 36:14
  Foster him. His name was Snowball.
• 36:17
  Snowball was not a pure white cat snowball, had some darker
• 36:21
  spots on him. One of them was unfortunately
• 36:24
  placed right on his butt. And he was just like this most
• 36:29
  unfortunate cat who was also overweight and couldn't clean
• 36:32
  himself. And so he dragged his butt on
• 36:35
  the carpet. Bit like a dog.
• 36:37
  Oh, yeah, and he had these overactive earwax glands and
• 36:41
  would scratch at his ears and it was like a scene.
• 36:44
  If you've seen or heard of the show, Dexter.
• 36:47
  It wasn't blood splatter on the walls.
• 36:49
  And I was like, this is not okay.
• 36:52
  Oh, so I got these little cloth caps to put on there and as I'm
• 36:56
  like holding him down and putting these clock caps on.
• 36:59
  I'm like, hey, it looks like a little claw condom.
• 37:04
  It's a cloth. And um, and because I am truly a
• 37:08
  nine year old at heart and will forever be.
• 37:10
  I was like, this is fantastic. I want to like, make these and
• 37:17
  have a brand because these, you know, there are brands that are
• 37:19
  out there and popular in the US. And I was like, but what's
• 37:22
  missing here, right? And what was missing for me is
• 37:25
  that all of these brands are like, this is such a great
• 37:27
  solution and here's how you do it and it's so easy and like
• 37:30
  but, you know, be aware some cats might not like it or you
• 37:33
  might need a second person, too. Usually to help hold them down
• 37:37
  lies. All lies.
• 37:39
  This is honestly like For the Love of Animals.
• 37:43
  This is a product that's used by people who, you know, feel like
• 37:47
  declawing is an inhumane thing to do to a cat.
• 37:50
  But they really need a solution because they have a baby or they
• 37:54
  have other pets. I have a friend who the cat took
• 37:57
  the dogs. I because they had Claws and
• 38:01
  they were fighting and the dog lost an eye because of it.
• 38:05
  And so it's a great solution, but like you probably ought to
• 38:09
  have the beverage of your choice nearby and you might definitely
• 38:13
  need like a kitty straight jacket, so that they'll hold
• 38:16
  still. And ultimately, a lot of people
• 38:18
  actually just decide to have their vet, or their groomer
• 38:21
  apply it because they last, like, six to eight weeks, they
• 38:24
  come with like this heavy-duty adhesive and, and it's just a
• 38:28
  lot easier if someone who does this, a lot, does it for you?
• 38:31
  And I felt like the sincerity and the acknowledgement of the
• 38:34
  reality of this. Product was lacking and I was
• 38:36
  like we are going to be like the brand that gives it to you
• 38:40
  straight. And so that's really reflected
• 38:43
  in our instructions and like, hey, yeah, not all cats will do
• 38:46
  well with this. You may not do well with this
• 38:49
  and that's not a moral failing. And of course like lots of dad
• 38:54
  jokes and jokes about sex. And you know, it's it's
• 38:59
  something that like I felt was missing the sincerity, but also
• 39:04
  I am a huge believer. Weaver.
• 39:05
  And like my background, my education is a non-profit and I
• 39:09
  think that there's like a huge aspect of corporate
• 39:12
  responsibility that comes down to really giving back to
• 39:16
  communities and keeping things sustainable.
• 39:19
  And so like my goal was to remove this heavy duty packaging
• 39:24
  that comes with a lot of these products that you see like
• 39:27
  commercially available. So our product comes in a dime
• 39:30
  bag because all good things, come in dime bags and it really
• 39:35
  Reduces the footprint and we give 10% of the proceeds of our
• 39:40
  net profits to animal Charities. So I'm trying to like live the
• 39:45
  life that I would want my kid to live down the line, and to have
• 39:49
  a balance between sincerity humor.
• 39:53
  Joy, and having some sustainability in the world
• 39:57
  where I feel like the difference.
• 39:58
  I've made is positive and it's going to make a good impact and
• 40:02
  we've seen, you know, what's been happening in you.
• 40:05
  Crane lately. It was almost kind of
• 40:07
  unbelievable. A lot of people were thinking
• 40:09
  like, oh, this will never happen.
• 40:10
  And then here we are. And one of the stories that
• 40:13
  we're seeing coming out, is there are so many people who are
• 40:18
  taking their pets with them. And this really resonated with
• 40:21
  me because when we were leaving, Bosnia to come to the u.s. we
• 40:25
  had to leave our animals behind, and I had spent some time living
• 40:31
  away, because my parents were in Sarajevo and they sent my sister
• 40:33
  and I to live with our A ins on like a family friends farm away
• 40:38
  from the fighting and so we were separated from her parents for a
• 40:41
  few years. We had a dog and a cat while we
• 40:44
  were on this farm and we just we left them behind and that was
• 40:47
  devastating to us, but there was no practical way for this to be
• 40:52
  to be something that we're like, we took them back with us and
• 40:56
  thinking about that and seeing people who are actually, like
• 40:59
  now, we're to a point where so many people are taking their
• 41:02
  pets with them. Not only that but all these
• 41:04
  neighboring countries. Is there animal Charities are
• 41:06
  coming together to support refugees and Refugee pets?
• 41:10
  And I was like, this is the thing that like, is healing my
• 41:14
  heart in terms of what I had to experience.
• 41:17
  And so instead of donating to US based charity is for the rest of
• 41:21
  the year are proceeds, will benefit Charities that are
• 41:24
  supporting Ukrainian pet refugees to try again, to make
• 41:29
  the world, a slightly better place.
• 41:31
  And, and I've just, you know, I feel like I can't Health
• 41:35
  problems entirely by myself, but the pot contributions I make to
• 41:39
  the world should be overwhelmingly positive for what
• 41:42
  I can do. And it's like that Serenity
• 41:45
  Prayer, right? Like, give me the big race to
• 41:48
  like, make the changes that I can.
• 41:49
  But also to accept the things that I cannot change.
• 41:53
  No, first of all, well done. Well done for the I mean, I
• 41:57
  think there's always something that can be done in some shape
• 42:01
  or form and a lot of it comes down to To, yeah, reframing the
• 42:06
  way that you're already doing something.
• 42:08
  I mean, as you said that, you know, you've got your only got
• 42:10
  this company that's involved with pets, you know, and it's
• 42:14
  kind of like a no-brainer to help Charities and Ukraine at
• 42:18
  this time, and it's actually, you know, it's like a natural
• 42:21
  kind of words Escape me, you know what I mean, progression,
• 42:28
  you know, energy is energy. Right.
• 42:35
  That is what nuts. Yeah.
• 42:37
  I mean, it's a good thing and it's I think I think on that
• 42:43
  note actually with regards to what we've seen in Ukraine with
• 42:47
  the importance of people's pets. I think in general over the
• 42:50
  years, maybe people's perception of pets has changed.
• 42:54
  Maybe, maybe. Because it pets, I think animals
• 42:57
  have always been important to humans and human race Etc.
• 43:00
  But if you think, like, 200 years ago or whatever like
• 43:04
  animals, It's almost serve more of like a functional purpose in
• 43:08
  a many respects. So they were still part of the
• 43:09
  family. But like, you know, for
• 43:10
  instance, cats, were expected to get rid of mice in the house and
• 43:14
  dogs were, you know, supposed to herd sheep and, and those things
• 43:17
  still happen, but, you know, over the years you find that
• 43:22
  this differs country to Country. Like I never forget when I was
• 43:25
  on holiday in Bulgaria. I was in Spring, like 2013 and I
• 43:30
  was it was there that the first and only time ever did a beach
• 43:33
  holiday because I can't stand doing this.
• 43:35
  Like that, I got suckered on to come to that.
• 43:39
  I wanted to go. Anyway, because cool.
• 43:40
  It's another country. I love Europe.
• 43:42
  I love going exploring traveling.
• 43:44
  I love all that but Beach holiday, but so we're at this
• 43:48
  like four star hotel. And you know, it's on the
• 43:50
  beachfront and I remember like the stray dog.
• 43:55
  Just ran up to me. And I wanted to pet it by
• 43:58
  remember someone saying to me, like on you shouldn't.
• 44:01
  I Australian might have fleas and Etc.
• 44:04
  And like I just remember like how skinny the dog was and and
• 44:11
  like it was clearly stray and I just kind of blew my mind a bit
• 44:15
  because we don't really have that in the UK.
• 44:19
  Like I'm sure there are Strays that, sometimes the animals are
• 44:21
  get lost or whatever or you know, Miss abused Etc, but
• 44:27
  Really speaking. We do take very good care of
• 44:29
  animals in this country. So it's a rarity to see that
• 44:31
  bit. That's very common or at least.
• 44:33
  It wasn't I'm in Bulgaria and that was very striking to me as
• 44:36
  far as like how that's enabled to happen, how that happens.
• 44:41
  But I think this latest situation with, with animals in
• 44:46
  the Ukraine, has taught us that you don't people's perception of
• 44:49
  animals has changed. Like they are part of the
• 44:51
  family. They are like, why would you
• 44:55
  live in Pine, you know, obviously in Or situation that
• 44:57
  was different that you were kids.
• 44:58
  So you didn't get saying that your parents, you know, they're
• 45:01
  like, we need to get out of this tough situation.
• 45:04
  Let's go, you know, you think about those things and you're
• 45:07
  like this extreme situation, but it's like I think maybe may I
• 45:14
  guess my point is that maybe that perception is now changing?
• 45:17
  And, you know, because people change over time and what people
• 45:22
  value changes over time. I suppose and maybe our
• 45:26
  perception of animals has changed, maybe hopefully for the
• 45:29
  better. I mean, so it certainly seems
• 45:30
  like people are more conscious of things.
• 45:32
  Like, you know, Animal Welfare these days.
• 45:35
  I mean, I see a lot of stuff being done to help animal
• 45:39
  shelters that in the UK. We've got we've got a lot of
• 45:42
  things. People will push into for people
• 45:45
  to get animals from rescues as opposed to just buying them, you
• 45:49
  know, as a puppy or whatever. And I also see a lot of
• 45:54
  literature in the media about, you know, kind of the negatives
• 45:59
  of the existence of zoos, for example, which is not always
• 46:03
  something that you hear spoken about.
• 46:05
  But, you know, it's true. I mean, You go to a nature
• 46:10
  reserve, that's a very different experience from going to a zoo.
• 46:15
  And if you've never been to either, or you only been to one
• 46:17
  or the other goal, make sure you see both.
• 46:18
  So you get a real good idea of the difference because yes,
• 46:22
  yeah, I never forget. I was in Dublin Zoo many years
• 46:26
  ago in Ireland and there was like a gorilla enclosure and
• 46:32
  fortunately they had some access to outside but it was one of
• 46:35
  those deals where some of it was inside.
• 46:37
  That would be where the glass was where you whatever and then
• 46:41
  there's an outdoor section, but they didn't have a lot of space
• 46:44
  and these are gorillas, you know, and it shouldn't be in the
• 46:51
  zoo anyway, but okay, but I think the thing that stuck out
• 46:56
  to me was Okay. Yes, they have access to indoors
• 47:00
  and Outdoors and they have space, but like, they don't have
• 47:02
  enough space and they've got all these, like, people staring at
• 47:05
  them and they're not stupid animals at all.
• 47:09
  I don't know. It's my personal belief.
• 47:10
  I don't believe animals stupid. I think they're very, very
• 47:12
  aware. And I could tell, I was at the
• 47:16
  time I was like 20 or something. And I remember just standing
• 47:18
  there and this Grill is by the glass looking at everyone.
• 47:22
  They just looks me directly in the eyes and I just stare at it.
• 47:26
  And there is, that's just kind of like, Heartbreaking moment.
• 47:32
  I could almost like feel like the sadness and the gorillas
• 47:35
  eyes. Like it was like.
• 47:40
  It's just going on my own feelings here, but it felt like
• 47:44
  we both understood that this is just an unacceptable situation,
• 47:49
  like, because I didn't get any Joy from that.
• 47:51
  I wasn't enjoying the experience.
• 47:52
  I was just looking at this like well, these animals shouldn't be
• 47:55
  here. This is unacceptable.
• 47:57
  Like what? Like and I don't want to be that
• 48:00
  guy like, you know, I paid to go to the zoo or the end of the
• 48:03
  day, so it's not like I'm completely on the funding this,
• 48:05
  you know, but at the end of like these days, I don't I don't ever
• 48:09
  want to go Mizzou, you know, I don't want her on stuff like
• 48:13
  that because it just think it's doesn't have a place in today's
• 48:16
  society. And and the reason I highlighted
• 48:22
  sanctuaries in rescue centers is because sometimes Like there can
• 48:29
  be it can be done for the good if what's going to happen if
• 48:33
  you're taking like an endangered species or you're taking an
• 48:35
  animal, we're taking care of them.
• 48:37
  And then with the view to release them back into the wild.
• 48:40
  I don't think it's that unreasonable that you let people
• 48:42
  see the animals, like, you know, that's okay because at least
• 48:45
  they're going to be taken care of and release back into the
• 48:49
  wild and this is like a temporary solution, you know,
• 48:53
  versus zoo is just - it's just like so, To the circus is that,
• 48:58
  it's like, you know. I I definitely see that and I
• 49:03
  know that circuses have certainly had a very difficult
• 49:06
  time in recent years, which is great because?
• 49:10
  Right, and I think, when these things start, it's when we were
• 49:14
  thinking about, like, you know, we're displaying Curiosities,
• 49:17
  and, of course, someone's making money off of this, right.
• 49:19
  This isn't that this was not a charitable Venture here, and I
• 49:23
  think to an extent zoos are feeling some of that pressure of
• 49:29
  needing to focus on. Providing more space right to
• 49:33
  animals and being really selective, in terms of what
• 49:35
  animals they do feature in what they do and how they do it and
• 49:38
  focusing on Rehabilitation and conservation.
• 49:40
  I agree that there need to be lots more changes done there.
• 49:47
  I also see a bit of a positive to zoos if they're done as well
• 49:51
  as possible. Now with an idea of growth
• 49:53
  towards the future because there are kids like me who would never
• 49:58
  be able to see some of these animals out in the wild and the
• 50:01
  things I don't see. I don't think to care about.
• 50:05
  So by having some of these examples, more locally
• 50:08
  accessible. I know our local Zoo School
• 50:11
  groups from preschool level all the way up through High School,
• 50:16
  visit the zoo, you know, and these are opportunities for
• 50:20
  people to build a broader worldview of the places around
• 50:24
  the world, the animals, the problems that they face right
• 50:27
  there. Its habitat, destruction, or
• 50:29
  poaching. So I think there's room for it
• 50:33
  to an extent, but I think there's also lots of
• 50:35
  improvements that need to be made and I agree.
• 50:38
  I had actually an opportunity to visit an animal sanctuary in
• 50:41
  Australia and you can definitely see, right?
• 50:44
  What the difference is in in how those habitats are organized and
• 50:50
  run and all of these the different and you know,
• 50:52
  enrichment and opportunities that animals have in those types
• 50:56
  of habitats. So I tend to like pick a very
• 50:59
  middle of the road despite. Wearing a totally black and
• 51:02
  white outfit today. I have a very gray perspective
• 51:04
  on life and that's not to say that it's an excuse to say like
• 51:08
  yeah, you know, zoos get to just stay the way they are.
• 51:12
  And the think this is great and they're Untouchable because I
• 51:14
  think the minute we make something so sacred that we
• 51:17
  can't talk about it and can't be skeptical of it and critical of
• 51:21
  it. It becomes a weapon.
• 51:23
  It's no longer a tool. It's a weapon now.
• 51:26
  Yeah, you should be able to criticize anything.
• 51:27
  Anything is up for Critters criticizing and I suppose Like I
• 51:32
  get where you're coming from. I think for me because I will, I
• 51:35
  will bit. Yeah, I have seen a lot of
• 51:37
  initiatives that zoos feature, and they always make a point of
• 51:42
  saying. Oh, we're giving to this Cherry.
• 51:44
  We're helping this, or we're doing this and it's like, they
• 51:46
  are doing things. But I think the key issue here
• 51:49
  is like The fact that they're like profiting by a having the
• 51:56
  animals there, right? Just hear me out on this.
• 52:00
  See, like, with, with an, with a sanctuary.
• 52:03
  It's like they take those animals because they're either
• 52:06
  endangered or they've come across them in the wild and
• 52:10
  they're like, they need genuine help before they can, maybe
• 52:13
  they've been like rejected, like a mother lion, cub has been
• 52:16
  rejected or something and they bring it back into the wild that
• 52:20
  way, you know, and then you see it.
• 52:22
  And you see the whole Any you see them, you know, look after
• 52:25
  the animal and then bring them back into the wall.
• 52:28
  We've series, they sometimes do that.
• 52:30
  But mostly the the the objective is taken from the wild.
• 52:36
  Give them a life in a zoo. That's it.
• 52:39
  And the goal is to keep Get them to to, you know, to breed and
• 52:47
  continue and stay in the zoo. And I don't know, like this idea
• 52:51
  of life in captivity to me, just hits me the wrong way.
• 52:55
  I think, because while I get what you're saying about all we
• 52:58
  should have access to be able to see them and stuff and that's
• 53:01
  beneficial. I agree.
• 53:04
  But like, I think if, if it was just the animal sanctuaries that
• 53:08
  existed and that was the way that we saw them.
• 53:11
  That would send the right message to because it, but okay.
• 53:14
  Well we have these animals, we're taking care of them.
• 53:17
  The reason that you're seeing them is because we're taking
• 53:20
  care of them and this is important and you explain why
• 53:23
  it's important. There is a zoo.
• 53:24
  It's like, oh, yeah, we're helping them a bit but they're
• 53:28
  going to live their whole existence in the zoo.
• 53:31
  And it's like, yeah, what kind of message does that send?
• 53:34
  I mean, it's a bit like What? Like, I don't know.
• 53:38
  And that's that's the only element that I get funny with,
• 53:42
  like, a zoo can can do all the initiatives.
• 53:44
  They want help people that all they want.
• 53:46
  But like, that one fact is sits with me a bit wrong because,
• 53:49
  like, if zoos with the only thing that existed then maybe
• 53:55
  you could make a bit of an argument either way.
• 53:57
  It's still be wrong. But at least you could say, oh,
• 53:58
  well, there are some zoos are doing something but sanctuaries
• 54:02
  are like exist and help and then sir.
• 54:05
  Peppa sitting and release animals back into the wall, and
• 54:08
  it's almost like a rehabilitation process or
• 54:11
  assisting them getting them back to wear.
• 54:14
  They need to be before they're released, you know, so, but I'm
• 54:19
  not trying to push you into like a opinion because I know
• 54:22
  sometimes people do that. That's not, that's not my deal.
• 54:24
  I'm just saying where I sit on that.
• 54:26
  Yeah. It's very much.
• 54:29
  So weird one when you when you when you when you deconstruct
• 54:32
  it, when you really start to like, put a magnifying glass on
• 54:35
  it. It starts to become a bit like
• 54:36
  well, why are we doing this? Well, and you know, I think
• 54:40
  that's like again talking about going back to start with why
• 54:43
  right? Right zoos didn't start with the
• 54:46
  why of conservation azuz started with the why of novelty and
• 54:51
  making money and you know, people find novelty exciting,
• 54:55
  right? And what a great experience and
• 54:57
  then they've kind of wandered. Into across time, right?
• 55:01
  Because of the social pressures of people coming out and saying,
• 55:04
  hey, it's not right to treat animals this way.
• 55:07
  Like this is inhumane right to sort of be like, okay.
• 55:11
  Well, let we ran over rebranding were also doing these
• 55:14
  conservation efforts and helping with breeding and Rehabilitation
• 55:18
  but their original. Why is still like there's Echoes
• 55:21
  of that and not all zoos are created equal, right?
• 55:24
  And it neither are all sanctuaries like there.
• 55:26
  There are animal sanctuaries or cat.
• 55:29
  Sanctuaries where I live that are like, borderline should be
• 55:32
  shut down by our local authorities because they're
• 55:35
  really not serving that purpose. But people are fond of using
• 55:39
  language in ways that serves them rather than ways that
• 55:42
  reflects the truth. So they call themselves
• 55:44
  sanctuaries because they know that people will get warm
• 55:47
  fuzzies about that, if you don't look deeper, but that being
• 55:51
  said, totally, you can see the difference there and maybe that
• 55:54
  is evolution of zoos 2.0, is that we're have a push towards
• 55:59
  More of a sanctuary type of environment and especially
• 56:04
  because these days like we can have experiences.
• 56:07
  We don't need to have him personally.
• 56:08
  I don't need to see that tiger through glass cage.
• 56:11
  I can have a VR experience at home of seeing tigers and
• 56:16
  learning about them and seeing them in their natural
• 56:18
  environment and supporting organizations around the world
• 56:21
  that are serving animals that maybe aren't, you know, native
• 56:24
  and maybe shouldn't be in a zoo, local to me because what is a
• 56:27
  polar bear doing in? The Midwest.
• 56:30
  Yeah, you know, it's a big one. Yeah, it's one thing.
• 56:33
  Having like a, like a big cat, or something like an eye patch
• 56:38
  of grass or whatever. But, come on, man.
• 56:40
  Penguins. I see that brings me.
• 56:43
  That's a good point because you mentioned like these big cats,
• 56:45
  like these big sanctuaries and stuff like that.
• 56:47
  And it should rhyme reminds me of that whole Tiger King Fierce
• 56:51
  go, which I'll be interested to get your thoughts on this
• 56:54
  because we've only touched a little bit on your love of cats.
• 56:57
  And why Pointy. And I'm sure we'll go into that
• 57:00
  in a little bit, but I just wanted to get your initial
• 57:02
  thoughts on that because I think for many of us other than just
• 57:06
  the pure absurdity of it. Just putting that to one side.
• 57:10
  Many people were looking at it like, well, here's two sets of
• 57:14
  people that have a lot of money, and they've decided to make like
• 57:21
  these big cat sanctuaries and, which were eventually, basically
• 57:24
  just became zoos. And I believe karabast Baskin
• 57:31
  asking hers is still operating because I know the the tiger
• 57:35
  Kings will shut down, but hers is still going.
• 57:38
  I believe and her justification is always well, you know, we're
• 57:41
  taking care of them. We're doing this, we're doing
• 57:42
  that. And the big thing that a lot of
• 57:44
  people would say in response to that is well.
• 57:46
  You just shouldn't have them in captivity and first place, you
• 57:49
  know, it's a very kind of like back and forth situation.
• 57:53
  But yeah being that you are a big lover of cats and animals.
• 57:57
  In general, what was your takeaway from that whole thing?
• 58:02
  I tried to avoid Tiger King as but I did, I mean, obviously, it
• 58:08
  was unavoidable because it was in, it was in the air, right?
• 58:11
  Everyone was talking about this and I think my stance words that
• 58:14
  is the same, that it generally is.
• 58:16
  Which is, if you are trying to help, right?
• 58:21
  That's great, but help can definitely hurt at times.
• 58:24
  And if you want to help a certain Animal person, country,
• 58:29
  whatever it is. You really have to understand
• 58:32
  what it is that it needs. And what's the best way?
• 58:35
  Not for you to help, but what's the best way for that animal
• 58:40
  person country, whatever area to receive help.
• 58:45
  And we see this in lots of different humanitarian efforts.
• 58:48
  And I think, you know, it's a little bit more layered with
• 58:50
  animals because they can't tell you what they need, but there
• 58:53
  are lots of people who know who have studied and observed and
• 58:57
  Live among these animals who have sanctuaries and can tell
• 59:00
  you. This is the best way to support
• 59:02
  the species and it's not by putting them in a habitat where
• 59:06
  you are. It's by partnering with this
• 59:08
  organization, right? If you have the money to do it,
• 59:11
  then why not give that money in a sustainable way to other
• 59:14
  organizations that are doing this work in a way that supports
• 59:18
  the natural local? Habitats of these animals and
• 59:21
  addresses their needs in the wild because even like, if you
• 59:24
  have animals and you let's say, you know, Habilitated them in a
• 59:28
  sanctuary and you release them back into the wild.
• 59:31
  What happens after that, right? Have you solved the problems
• 59:36
  that are in place that have endangered these animals to
• 59:39
  begin with? And if you haven't, then you're
• 59:41
  just creating a feeder program for your Sanctuary instead of
• 59:45
  actually creating Solutions. And so like to me, you know,
• 59:50
  it's the same thing when people, you know, want to help.
• 59:55
  Let's say communities that need access to clean water.
• 59:59
  Well, what is the best way to do that?
• 1:00:02
  Right? What is the sustainable way to
• 1:00:03
  do that? And what do those communities
• 1:00:05
  say? They need to succeed when it
• 1:00:08
  comes to the sustainability, right?
• 1:00:10
  And for you, it might be, you know, donating money, right?
• 1:00:14
  To this particular organization. That's teaching them about how
• 1:00:18
  to do this. It might be building Wells that
• 1:00:20
  are closer, so they don't have to walk as far as what other
• 1:00:23
  problems are being. Solved and what problems can you
• 1:00:26
  create by imposing your view of that solution?
• 1:00:29
  Right? And the way people interact with
• 1:00:31
  things it's going to be based on their culture on their
• 1:00:34
  experiences and trying to come in and I think the u.s.
• 1:00:38
  Is guilty of this as well. As anybody else that like you
• 1:00:42
  come in and you impose what you think is the solution, but that
• 1:00:46
  actually does more harm than good and you're just wasting
• 1:00:48
  resources at that point instead of engaging locally and finding
• 1:00:51
  out like Is this a problem for you?
• 1:00:54
  How is this a problem? How, what do you think is the
• 1:00:57
  best way to solve this and with animals again, like you can't
• 1:01:01
  really ask them necessarily but there are lots of people who are
• 1:01:04
  quite knowledgeable and engaging with them and saying, I want to
• 1:01:07
  help and I want to make sure that when I help I also don't do
• 1:01:10
  harm through that. So yeah, and like there are some
• 1:01:15
  local farms in our area that are really great.
• 1:01:17
  You can go and you can like donate and take a tour and I
• 1:01:21
  looked at one recently and And they they also breed dogs.
• 1:01:25
  And I'm like our shelters are full of pets, right?
• 1:01:30
  Loved pets. And abandoned pets.
• 1:01:31
  That pets that need homes. Why are we breeding dogs?
• 1:01:35
  And so, for me, that's not a place that I can support because
• 1:01:38
  they are contributing to what I perceive as a large problem in
• 1:01:41
  our community. That is straining.
• 1:01:43
  The resources, right? Not to mention that, like we
• 1:01:47
  could probably talk for another two hours about why purebred
• 1:01:51
  dogs are actually probably. Mattock and not something we
• 1:01:54
  want like we stopped pure-breeding, Royals.
• 1:01:56
  Maybe we can take that. And Next Step because we already
• 1:01:59
  know pure breeding animals causes.
• 1:02:01
  Same types of genetic issues. Yeah, that's a whole as a whole
• 1:02:08
  pocos right there. Let's let's talk through your
• 1:02:13
  love of cats. because, I mean, well, I love animals, many
• 1:02:22
  people listening to this love animals.
• 1:02:24
  We will have animals for the most.
• 1:02:25
  Imagine. Most people love animals.
• 1:02:27
  I'd throw. This is the time when I meet
• 1:02:28
  someone, it doesn't have animals.
• 1:02:29
  I'm like, what's wrong with you? It's fair enough.
• 1:02:32
  Everyone bag. Everyone's different.
• 1:02:34
  Everyone's different, you know. Yeah, but why are cats
• 1:02:38
  specifically so important to you?
• 1:02:40
  What is it about cats? What's the story there?
• 1:02:44
  So, you know, I think this is like, Asking anybody about like
• 1:02:48
  why they love? Anything is there's just
• 1:02:50
  something about it. That calls to my soul.
• 1:02:54
  Like I love their cute little pointy ears and their cute
• 1:02:57
  little faces. And the way that they now and
• 1:03:00
  how Sassy they can be and their personalities, the fact that
• 1:03:03
  they don't usually smell as bad as dogs.
• 1:03:05
  Like there's so many things about it, but like, but really,
• 1:03:08
  you know, one of my first Pat's was this cat that we had on this
• 1:03:11
  farm and I just like, I just love this cat and aesthetically.
• 1:03:15
  I find cats married. Pleasing the fact that they have
• 1:03:18
  this like perceived personality of being like sassy and
• 1:03:22
  independent compared to dogs that are, you know, just like
• 1:03:27
  endlessly loyal to their people or, you know, like even an
• 1:03:30
  aggressive cat, you have some respect for and you're like, oh,
• 1:03:34
  we better stay away from that cat, but like an aggressive dog,
• 1:03:37
  that aggression can create, you know, a life-threatening problem
• 1:03:40
  for that, dog. So, cats just have this like,
• 1:03:43
  real balance in the world of being In both perceived as
• 1:03:48
  independent, but can also be quite loving and like and vapor.
• 1:03:52
  And it's almost like the way you know, if a small child really
• 1:03:56
  likes you and like engages with you.
• 1:03:57
  You're like, yes, I made it because children tell no lies,
• 1:04:01
  right? When it comes their good readers
• 1:04:03
  of personality and like, if someone's going to be a good
• 1:04:06
  person to interact with, and I feel like the cats are the same
• 1:04:08
  way. Like, if your cat likes me, I
• 1:04:10
  have arrived in the world. And so I've always just love
• 1:04:15
  them. And they've made me feel joyful.
• 1:04:18
  And, and I've had like, at one point we had three cats and all
• 1:04:23
  of my cats were rescues, don't one of them developed
• 1:04:27
  obsessive-compulsive disorder and would mow his the fur off of
• 1:04:31
  his stomach. So we got creative about
• 1:04:33
  anti-anxiety medications for him.
• 1:04:36
  Another cat. I had had irritable bowel
• 1:04:38
  syndrome and she was like, kicked out by her previous
• 1:04:40
  owners, because she wasn't litter box trained, but it
• 1:04:43
  actually turned out that she had a more serious issue.
• 1:04:46
  And then poor boy cat. He ended up at the, that was
• 1:04:49
  Snowball. He ended up at the Humane
• 1:04:52
  Society because his family got a dog and he can't stay with dogs.
• 1:04:58
  And so I'm like, but this cat was your first pet, and then the
• 1:05:01
  dog came around. It feels unfair to get rid of
• 1:05:04
  the cat. So we had just fostered him for
• 1:05:07
  a while. Hoping to get him adopted by
• 1:05:09
  someone and you know, kind of find out his personality, give
• 1:05:12
  him a break from the shelter, and then when we saw all of
• 1:05:16
  these, The adorable things. He did like dragging his butt on
• 1:05:18
  the carpet eating too fast, and throwing up.
• 1:05:21
  We were like, No One's Gonna Take this cat.
• 1:05:23
  I have I'm between a rock and a hard place because this cat, I
• 1:05:27
  can either omit some of these Tendencies.
• 1:05:31
  Right? That are gonna potentially Drive
• 1:05:33
  someone up the wall, or I can be honest about it.
• 1:05:36
  And either way this cat either gets adopted and then goes right
• 1:05:39
  back to the shelter or doesn't get adopted.
• 1:05:42
  And he was the biggest cuddle bug ever like He really could
• 1:05:47
  not take no for an answer and it was a little bit of a problem.
• 1:05:50
  But he wanted to sit on laps. He wanted to be in your face and
• 1:05:54
  he also loved carbohydrates. The way I love carbohydrates.
• 1:05:58
  He would eat pretty much anything.
• 1:06:01
  French fries, popcorn, scones loved scones, cookies cake,
• 1:06:06
  anything if it was around he was going to try to take a bite out
• 1:06:09
  of it and he like genuinely. This was the only time this Camp
• 1:06:13
  moved fast. So those are just like those
• 1:06:19
  were my, my little world and my little introduction to being a
• 1:06:23
  cat caretaker and beyond that. I had the opportunity, a few
• 1:06:28
  summers ago. I took over for a community cat
• 1:06:32
  caretaker and four people might not know exactly what community
• 1:06:35
  cats are. But cats actually live outdoors
• 1:06:38
  and live in communities outdoors and they are our organizations
• 1:06:43
  and volunteers, that take care of them that like bring them
• 1:06:45
  food and water. Everyday that set up shelters
• 1:06:48
  for them so that they can be insulated from weather and that
• 1:06:51
  helped to trap and then spay and neuter the cats so that they
• 1:06:54
  don't keep contributing to the over populations that we see.
• 1:06:57
  And you mentioned about like, seeing the stray dogs.
• 1:06:59
  And how we don't see that as much, but we do see Stray Cats a
• 1:07:02
  lot more often and part of that is because people consider them
• 1:07:07
  to be harder and more independent, right.
• 1:07:10
  Dogs. Are these animals that need us
• 1:07:12
  as much as we need them, but cats can totally make it and
• 1:07:15
  they can like, Hunt for themselves and get food and
• 1:07:18
  they'll get birds which topic for another day and like, mice
• 1:07:22
  and all of these things. And so so this was another area
• 1:07:25
  where we see issues because people won't spay and neuter
• 1:07:28
  cats because of the cost. So they will be happy to spend
• 1:07:32
  $100 to spay or neuter a small dog, like teacup Chihuahua as
• 1:07:37
  you know, but they will not spend the same amount on you
• 1:07:39
  amount of money on a cat-like in our area locally.
• 1:07:42
  It maxes out at about 45 or 50 dollars is what people are
• 1:07:45
  willing to do. Do and beyond that?
• 1:07:47
  If you try to charge the actual cost, they just won't do it.
• 1:07:51
  They're like, well, we don't need to do this and you know,
• 1:07:53
  the cat gets out or the cat is an indoor outdoor cat and then
• 1:07:57
  they start overpopulating an area with kittens because cats
• 1:08:01
  can have kittens as young as 6 months old.
• 1:08:03
  Like they're already ready to reproduce at that point.
• 1:08:06
  So it's hidden having kittens, you know, and so this was
• 1:08:11
  actually the thing that kind of got me thinking about.
• 1:08:13
  How do I contribute in a positive way and This Gap.
• 1:08:17
  When it comes to nonprofits. Providing Spay/Neuter services
• 1:08:21
  and shelters, you know, providing Spay/Neuter services
• 1:08:24
  to make pets more adoptable. There's this Gap that's being
• 1:08:27
  covered sometimes by grants, or by federal funding or donations,
• 1:08:31
  but there's a gap between what's needed to be paid for this
• 1:08:34
  service for cats, and what's actually paid for by owners or
• 1:08:40
  or other people who, you know, are taking care of those cats.
• 1:08:43
  And I was like, this is the place where I can make a
• 1:08:44
  difference and Take the proceeds that we're making and
• 1:08:49
  contribute, some of that, to these Charities, to help close
• 1:08:52
  that Gap in a really sustainable way for, for those animals.
• 1:08:56
  And then that Cascades down to those cats.
• 1:08:59
  Have a better life because if you have a tomcat and he's
• 1:09:02
  spraying all over the place, that cat gets kicked out a lot
• 1:09:05
  faster, right. If you have kittens, you know,
• 1:09:08
  what's going to happen to those kittens.
• 1:09:10
  My first cat was a rescue because she was literally in the
• 1:09:15
  bag of kittens. Headed to the Ritter River.
• 1:09:18
  Literally, there was a river behind the farm where we were at
• 1:09:21
  and someone was walking by and they were like, would you like
• 1:09:23
  one of these kittens because they were taking them out to
• 1:09:26
  drown them because they couldn't take care of them.
• 1:09:29
  And that was what you did. And I think that's a very,
• 1:09:32
  that's another, you know, like that's 30-ish years ago, that
• 1:09:35
  all of this is happening, but that is legitimately how people
• 1:09:38
  solve overpopulation problem. Sometimes is by joining these
• 1:09:42
  animals. And now, it feels very
• 1:09:43
  Unthinkable because we bonded, so closely with them.
• 1:09:46
  And so many people around the world have pets and they
• 1:09:49
  couldn't imagine doing that right?
• 1:09:51
  But are our feelings and our interactions with animals have
• 1:09:56
  gone from more utilitarian to more Humane and acknowledging
• 1:10:00
  them. As you know, as other beings on
• 1:10:02
  this planet that also deserve to feel safe and cared for and not
• 1:10:07
  to go through a lot of pain and torture in their lives.
• 1:10:13
  Maybe I'll give you that our treatment of animals.
• 1:10:17
  Now is very much reflective of our treatment of each other in
• 1:10:21
  many ways. Because if you look at, like the
• 1:10:24
  way the world used to be, I'm not saying it's going to still a
• 1:10:28
  lot of work but, you know, like, in general most countries that
• 1:10:33
  we've come farther than I guess we've ever been before and
• 1:10:40
  certainly when it comes to the ideals in society and what we
• 1:10:44
  were guard is the right behavior and stuff, you know, we will
• 1:10:48
  hold each other to a high standard and may perhaps you
• 1:10:51
  could argue it. it's reflective of that mean, if it's if this
• 1:10:55
  was what was 50 years ago, 30 years ago, 100 years ago, you
• 1:10:58
  know you, maybe, maybe our Behavior towards each other
• 1:11:04
  wasn't quite where it needed to be either.
• 1:11:07
  I mean that's and that's true again, and again.
• 1:11:08
  And again, you know, I feel like, um, everything a basic I
• 1:11:12
  guess, what my plan is is everything is connected to some
• 1:11:14
  extent and I think treatment of others and animals is very
• 1:11:18
  reflective of Us and who we are. In many respects, just a couple
• 1:11:26
  of questions for you just about cats in general.
• 1:11:28
  One thing. I wanted to ask you about, which
• 1:11:31
  I think might be interesting is given that, you know, both dogs
• 1:11:37
  and cats originally obviously come from the wild and they were
• 1:11:39
  domesticated by humans and have become very kind of, you know,
• 1:11:43
  closely associated with, with humans, almost intertwined.
• 1:11:47
  Why do you think there is this kind of drastic?
• 1:11:51
  Difference in terms of temperament and attitude between
• 1:11:54
  dogs and cats. I mean obviously every cat and
• 1:11:58
  dog is different but what you said does ring, true that dogs
• 1:12:03
  do kind of need humans. Whereas cats they very like some
• 1:12:10
  of them do genuinely need us and they have a bit more needy and
• 1:12:15
  sometimes that's behavioral. Sometimes that's because of
• 1:12:17
  abuse or whatever. Sometimes it's just Are
• 1:12:20
  personality, but then, you know, it time and time again,
• 1:12:25
  especially when I lived in Europe or so all the time, you
• 1:12:26
  know, you could leave the cat to do its thing.
• 1:12:29
  Sometimes a cat wouldn't return for days, come back and just be
• 1:12:33
  all like, friendly and one hugs and stuff and then don't see it
• 1:12:37
  for another way, if it was very strange to me because here in
• 1:12:39
  England, like you see a bit of that but generally, it's like, I
• 1:12:43
  don't know, maybe they go out for a few hours and they come
• 1:12:45
  back, spend probably sleep throughout the day hunt at
• 1:12:49
  night, you know, that's kind of the deal.
• 1:12:51
  But yeah, I just want to get your thoughts on that like this,
• 1:12:53
  this major difference as far as temperament and personality
• 1:12:56
  between dogs and cats, and why it is that we have this
• 1:13:00
  perception? Sure.
• 1:13:03
  I think there are different facets to that one.
• 1:13:06
  They're different species and they have different strengths
• 1:13:10
  and weaknesses, right? And skill sets.
• 1:13:13
  Very like cats are much more difficult to train for commands,
• 1:13:17
  not impossible, but more difficult and dog.
• 1:13:20
  Dogs are much easier to train when it comes to giving them
• 1:13:25
  commands and having them do certain things and perform
• 1:13:28
  certain behaviors. Like there's a reason why we
• 1:13:31
  have guide dogs, but not guide cats because that cat will 100%,
• 1:13:35
  leave you for dead. And and I think to an extent,
• 1:13:40
  this is also because we have accepted the limitations of cats
• 1:13:45
  and we can do that because there's so much smaller, right?
• 1:13:48
  Because when you look at some there are Species that are
• 1:13:51
  bigger than I am, that way more than me that could tear me
• 1:13:55
  apart. If you know if they had like if
• 1:13:58
  they're coming at me and so their natural inclinations and
• 1:14:03
  their size lead us to want to control them more.
• 1:14:06
  Whereas cats, like, you can train a sheepdog right to herd
• 1:14:11
  sheep and it does a specific activity in a specific way with
• 1:14:14
  an animal that response. How do you train a cat to hunt
• 1:14:17
  mice in a specific way? Like, you don't even know
• 1:14:20
  necessarily whether Are those those mice are and so they have
• 1:14:23
  more Independence and we trust them to like do their particular
• 1:14:26
  tasks and things on their own and we've just kind of done
• 1:14:29
  that. Whereas with dogs.
• 1:14:31
  We can have more control. Therefore.
• 1:14:33
  We do have more control. We want more control because
• 1:14:36
  they can do more harm to us individually and you know and as
• 1:14:41
  a whole right you're usually walking down a dark alley you
• 1:14:44
  see a pack of dogs. How are you going to feel
• 1:14:48
  compared to seeing a bunch of cats together?
• 1:14:50
  Right. Like, oh, look at the cute
• 1:14:52
  kitties, right? And they're probably more likely
• 1:14:54
  to scatter. Whereas those dogs could be
• 1:14:57
  aggressive. You don't know and they might be
• 1:14:59
  just fine. But we're going to tend to
• 1:15:01
  ascribe more aggression towards dogs than towards cats because
• 1:15:05
  also size-wise, they can be bigger way much bigger than
• 1:15:09
  cats. Now, if you think about it, like
• 1:15:10
  if we had tigers that we were keeping as pets, you'd probably
• 1:15:15
  be training more and holding them on a tighter leash.
• 1:15:18
  Then we do the average house cat because we just Don't perceive
• 1:15:21
  them as a danger. I don't know to what extent we
• 1:15:24
  could do more in terms of bringing those species together
• 1:15:29
  in terms of how we interact with them and like shaping their
• 1:15:32
  environments shaping the way that they interact with us and
• 1:15:35
  that would be a very curious, like 100 year project, right?
• 1:15:39
  Or more to see if you could, if you could bring them closer
• 1:15:43
  together, in terms of the ways that they behave, and the way
• 1:15:46
  that they are trainable. But those are some of the larger
• 1:15:49
  things that I find are. Very different between the two
• 1:15:52
  species. And we're really more willing to
• 1:15:54
  let cats like do their own thing and to an extent will tolerate
• 1:15:59
  more Shenanigans from cats. Then we will from dogs.
• 1:16:02
  Like, if your dog is not housebroken, that's a real
• 1:16:04
  serious problem. But like, your cat peeing,
• 1:16:06
  outside the litter box, you're like, oh no, what have I done
• 1:16:08
  wrong? Not!
• 1:16:10
  What have you done wrong as a cat?
• 1:16:11
  But like I have clearly not set up the perfect environment for
• 1:16:15
  this animal. Otherwise, it wouldn't do this.
• 1:16:17
  Right? Whereas, a dog is a bad dog if
• 1:16:19
  he pooped on the floor or Or you know, peed in a corner.
• 1:16:23
  It's very true because I've always seen doctors being kind
• 1:16:27
  of like what it varies but generally they like a
• 1:16:31
  perpetually toddler like cut kind of wears cats, always kind
• 1:16:36
  of and and they give me wrong. I think there's certain breeds
• 1:16:41
  of dogs and certain personalities can like once you
• 1:16:44
  get to certain amount years. They they do become very mature
• 1:16:47
  and intelligent and they just, they don't even have to be told.
• 1:16:50
  Is cats just kind of seemed very mature from the get-go.
• 1:16:54
  Like and I've always found that fascinating how different their
• 1:16:57
  personality is two dogs. They just start.
• 1:16:59
  I mean as you said I think a lot of it does come down to just
• 1:17:03
  different being different species to having different
• 1:17:05
  temperaments, but maybe some of it is to do with the way we
• 1:17:09
  treat them as well and our perception of them.
• 1:17:13
  Well, I different rhythms do, right?
• 1:17:15
  Because like cats tend to be more like Dawn and dusk oriented
• 1:17:18
  hunters and spend a lot of Of their time sleeping during the
• 1:17:22
  day and overnight, whereas dogs tend to be more like, what's my
• 1:17:26
  human doing? Are they awake?
• 1:17:27
  Like let's go and yeah, and have those and have far more
• 1:17:32
  difference in their energy levels.
• 1:17:34
  Like, as adults as adult animals, like, you can have a
• 1:17:37
  very active dog, but most cats are not going to be nearly as
• 1:17:41
  active as as a dog. Absolutely.
• 1:17:45
  How can someone become an effective Cat Whisperer?
• 1:17:51
  What's the secret? Oh goodness.
• 1:17:55
  I think it's lowering your expectations of what a cat is
• 1:17:58
  going to do and knowing what cats, you know, kind of like who
• 1:18:03
  they are, right, accepting them as they are.
• 1:18:06
  And figuring out what works for any individual cat or doesn't, I
• 1:18:10
  know that as someone who has worked on training.
• 1:18:12
  My cats not to jump on things. Like one of them just didn't
• 1:18:17
  care. She needed to be shoes, straight
• 1:18:19
  up vertical. And back down and loved it and
• 1:18:24
  my bigger cat had a harder time jumping on stuff.
• 1:18:26
  So we never really had to worry too much about it, but kind of
• 1:18:30
  understanding what your cats interests are and what their
• 1:18:33
  triggers are and what scares them or what they don't like,
• 1:18:37
  because the most effective training tool we ever used, was
• 1:18:41
  a spray bottle, just filled with clean water and just a little
• 1:18:45
  Spritz in the face. Anytime that they tried to do
• 1:18:47
  something that was like unacceptable.
• 1:18:51
  And they did not care for that at all and they quickly learned.
• 1:18:54
  Like if I try to do X, Y will happen.
• 1:18:58
  I don't want that to happen. So I will stay down here and
• 1:19:01
  sometimes it was effective enough that you could just shake
• 1:19:04
  the water bottle and they would slink away from whatever
• 1:19:08
  Mischief they were trying to commit.
• 1:19:11
  But a part of it is also understanding their
• 1:19:13
  personalities and being willing to give them what they need,
• 1:19:16
  right. If they like to jump if they
• 1:19:18
  like to climb if they like to scratch.
• 1:19:20
  They need to have outlets for that, because punishing them for
• 1:19:23
  these natural behaviors is not going to be helpful.
• 1:19:26
  It's not going to really discourage those behaviors and
• 1:19:29
  it can cause both trauma and depression and anxiety in the
• 1:19:32
  cat. If they're not able to engage in
• 1:19:35
  these things that their bodies need.
• 1:19:36
  And, you know, it's the same way.
• 1:19:38
  Like, when people with small children, like if they don't get
• 1:19:40
  enough sleep, they are tiny monsters.
• 1:19:42
  And so you really have to, like, it's not about what you need
• 1:19:45
  your child to be able to do with staying up late, or getting up
• 1:19:48
  early. It's about the amount of time
• 1:19:50
  they Need to be resting and you have to adjust to that and it's
• 1:19:54
  the same with cats, you have to really adjust to the animal and
• 1:19:58
  understand them and figure out, like, what motivates them, and
• 1:20:02
  what doesn't and then use those tools.
• 1:20:05
  And then just baby proof, your home and not have candles or
• 1:20:08
  plants anywhere because both are a recipe for disaster.
• 1:20:12
  These are health conditions that you mentioned the quite common
• 1:20:16
  in, obviously, in humans. It would sound like a stupid
• 1:20:19
  question, but I I did I genuinely don't know.
• 1:20:21
  It's just fascinating to me. I've heard of cats having like
• 1:20:23
  being anxious anxious having anxiety, but I always just
• 1:20:26
  attributed that to like, okay, pour owners you.
• 1:20:29
  But I remember, once when I was growing up, I saw one of my
• 1:20:35
  mom's best friends Partners had a couple of cats and it was
• 1:20:39
  fascinating to me, because the two cats were completely
• 1:20:42
  different, one of them was petrified of humans and the
• 1:20:48
  other one was chill. And they explained and I was
• 1:20:52
  only a kid. It's almost like five or six but
• 1:20:54
  and I used to get bit like upset that that the current one other
• 1:20:57
  cats was petrified. And it was explained to me that
• 1:21:00
  the reason that the cat was petrified was that it had been
• 1:21:02
  treated really badly. So it would just run and hide
• 1:21:07
  like even when it came to food time, the chilkat would just
• 1:21:11
  come do its thing. Whatever.
• 1:21:13
  Like I'm your boss, you know, typical cat and the other cat
• 1:21:16
  would kind of wait until it got dark and no one's around then.
• 1:21:20
  Then kind of go get the food. There was one time we had to try
• 1:21:25
  and get it out of a garage. It's run away.
• 1:21:28
  It was scared of something and it took hours to get the car
• 1:21:34
  because we're so scared. And I remembered because he is
• 1:21:40
  earlier that the one and only cat I'd ever owned.
• 1:21:43
  It was explained to me. I was like two or three years
• 1:21:45
  old and we were given this cat because the neighbors didn't
• 1:21:49
  want it. We just moved.
• 1:21:50
  Into this place. It's just me and my mom.
• 1:21:53
  And It was explained that the cat didn't like children, which
• 1:22:00
  I was is going to be a problem and it wouldn't come anywhere
• 1:22:03
  near me obviously. And apparently that was because
• 1:22:06
  the kids in the local area had been mean to her or whatever.
• 1:22:09
  So it's just like her. I hate children.
• 1:22:13
  My mom just carefully explained that we will get the cat to like
• 1:22:18
  you, but it's going to take some time.
• 1:22:20
  You have to build up trust. So here's what we're going to do
• 1:22:22
  and we would just basically put food out for the cap, you know,
• 1:22:28
  and basically, I was like, you know, the boss.
• 1:22:31
  Essentially, I would give, I would give the food every time
• 1:22:34
  and at first, I noticed that the cat would kind of stalk in.
• 1:22:38
  And I guess initially associate that I was down at first that
• 1:22:43
  used to pester my mom, but I think after a while I realized
• 1:22:45
  no, he's the Give a go to him, don't like little humans, but he
• 1:22:50
  gives me food. So he must be all right, and
• 1:22:53
  then the magic happened, it took about a month or so, but I was
• 1:22:57
  just sitting in our living room and the cat sort of wanders up
• 1:23:01
  near me and sees what's going on and we become friends and then
• 1:23:06
  we become best buddies. Then it's like cat loves me.
• 1:23:11
  And I remember I've never told this story before.
• 1:23:13
  Yeah, the cat's name was Rocky. Yeah, I didn't name of that.
• 1:23:17
  But let's imagine a three-year-old in his room
• 1:23:22
  biking up in the mud. This is how I began my mornings.
• 1:23:26
  I wake up in the morning and I had to stare cakes.
• 1:23:28
  I was a young kid and the cat would run up the stairs and jump
• 1:23:33
  over. So what I would wake up and be
• 1:23:35
  like, okay and the cat would just run up the stairs.
• 1:23:38
  Jump over to stare, get jump on my bed and I would just stroked
• 1:23:41
  the cat until my mom woke up. And that was it.
• 1:23:44
  That is the cutest thing I've ever.
• 1:23:46
  I've heard that I adore that it sounds like that cat was really
• 1:23:52
  important to you. Oh my God, I love the customer.
• 1:23:54
  I love animals. I've always loved animals, I
• 1:23:57
  think. Without sounding like douchey
• 1:24:01
  like oh animals, love me, but you know what it is.
• 1:24:03
  I think it comes down to temperament as well.
• 1:24:06
  Like you have to understand. The way animals are and they,
• 1:24:11
  and what you said earlier in the conversation about the vibe, you
• 1:24:16
  give off the temperament, you give up like animals are very
• 1:24:18
  sensitive. They can pick up on that stuff,
• 1:24:20
  dogs and cats. Both know if they have fantastic
• 1:24:25
  memories, you know, I remember this is a bit of a sad story.
• 1:24:28
  I remember there was a family dog.
• 1:24:30
  We had who unfortunately been abused.
• 1:24:33
  I think the British version of the carnival We'd had the dog
• 1:24:40
  for, like 20 years, you know, so this is like, 15 years in or
• 1:24:44
  something and dog was brilliant. Obviously.
• 1:24:49
  It's a rescue very well-behaved. But as suit the minute that it's
• 1:24:55
  or someone like across the road, that even looked even a little
• 1:24:59
  bit scraggly. Like they could be from the, the
• 1:25:01
  circus carnival. It would lose its mind.
• 1:25:04
  I'll just go, just go really aggressive because obviously,
• 1:25:08
  that's how dogs react. To fear and to memories of
• 1:25:13
  trauma and stuff like that. They get scared.
• 1:25:15
  They attack. That's that's how they then
• 1:25:16
  people. That's the thing.
• 1:25:17
  People that don't understand that they might look at that
• 1:25:19
  goat. Some aggressive dog, and it's
• 1:25:20
  like, no, it's not like, I don't think they Whenever I see an
• 1:25:25
  aggressive dog, the first thing I think is that's about it.
• 1:25:27
  Oh, no, every time say we're happy and popular opinion, a
• 1:25:33
  child, that gets bitten was asking for it.
• 1:25:36
  An adult that gets bitten was asking for it.
• 1:25:38
  It's not. And it's not necessarily that
• 1:25:41
  they were intentionally trying to do something mean to an
• 1:25:45
  animal, but they didn't take the appropriate steps to find out
• 1:25:49
  what triggers that animal. Whether it's, that animal is and
• 1:25:52
  lead to other. People, whether it's okay to pet
• 1:25:55
  and this is one of the things I have a five-year-old.
• 1:25:58
  The thing we always teach them is always ask the owner.
• 1:26:01
  Is it okay to pet and always approach the Animal by offering
• 1:26:05
  your hand for them to smell before you go into touch them?
• 1:26:09
  Because like think about it and it is also as as the parent of a
• 1:26:12
  small child, I get hands coming at my face all the time.
• 1:26:16
  It is unpleasant. Right?
• 1:26:18
  And so now like from an animal's perspective like from an adult
• 1:26:22
  perspective I can kind of I can process that but from an
• 1:26:26
  animal's perspective where like here's my dog.
• 1:26:29
  Here's my child. They are very in your face and
• 1:26:32
  those children are so close. I think this is what scares
• 1:26:35
  cats. A lot about small children,
• 1:26:37
  they're unpredictable, they move fast and they're very, very
• 1:26:41
  close to low to the ground. And so it makes them feel like
• 1:26:44
  more of a danger compared to adults, who tend to move slower
• 1:26:48
  if they get off the sofa at all, you know, who tend to understand
• 1:26:53
  and Give animals their space but the children, they're like, I
• 1:26:55
  want this. And therefore, I'm going to go
• 1:26:57
  do it versus the adult who's like, well this cat what this
• 1:27:02
  cat needs and how it behaves in react is also important to
• 1:27:05
  consider. So I'm not going to go after
• 1:27:07
  this cat but kids their whole world is about them, right?
• 1:27:10
  They don't they haven't like started really looking at like
• 1:27:14
  it's not just about me, it's about the people in my family.
• 1:27:16
  It's about my community. It's not just about me and what
• 1:27:20
  I want or need in this moment. It's A greater Collective and
• 1:27:24
  they're just not capable of that thought yet.
• 1:27:26
  And so they tend to be very aggressive and go after the
• 1:27:29
  animals and have to be trained on how not to do that.
• 1:27:31
  So I can see how that's problematic.
• 1:27:34
  But yeah, but if you just approach a strange animal that
• 1:27:36
  you don't know anything about their history about their
• 1:27:38
  temperament, you know, anything like that, and you just come at
• 1:27:41
  them. I can't blame that animal for
• 1:27:44
  trying to defend and protect itself because we as humans need
• 1:27:48
  to have a different approach of saying, you know is your dog,
• 1:27:51
  okay, to Pat, you know, a And like, is there anything I need
• 1:27:55
  to know about your dog and then make that introduction slowly?
• 1:27:59
  I think then it rings true that you said, and also that I've
• 1:28:03
  heard before particularly with cars, is this idea that, you
• 1:28:06
  know, dogs and cats pets are an exercise in consent, and it's an
• 1:28:11
  important lesson that you can teach your children by having a
• 1:28:15
  pain. And that's the thing like when
• 1:28:17
  you hear of these extreme scenarios where like a kid gets
• 1:28:20
  attacked by an animal or whatever and you know, it's
• 1:28:25
  always the same thing, you know the dog gets.
• 1:28:28
  Put down or something like that and it's like I always look at
• 1:28:31
  that like, okay. I look at it like double-sided
• 1:28:35
  part of it. I see.
• 1:28:36
  Okay. You know what?
• 1:28:40
  I think, if, you know, you've got a dog that's got like,
• 1:28:42
  trauma, you know that they've, you know, tricky temperament
• 1:28:46
  something like that. Just keep them away from young
• 1:28:49
  children, you know, like above a certain age, you know, like that
• 1:28:53
  kind again, it comes down to the owner, always comes down to the
• 1:28:56
  owner, but when it comes to, as you say, like the other side,
• 1:29:00
  which is teaching your children, how to react to it.
• 1:29:03
  I mean, Especially with dog, like cats are a bit cats are a
• 1:29:07
  bit funny, you know, like as you said they're a bit more erratic.
• 1:29:10
  Like the most I do is scratch you but then there's run away.
• 1:29:12
  Like, you know, there's not really much you can say it other
• 1:29:16
  than explain to your kid. Like what could this is?
• 1:29:19
  Why the cat does this? You don't need to be afraid?
• 1:29:22
  Oh, yeah, happened. I'm sure all of us have had that
• 1:29:23
  thing where you stroking the cat touches barely in it just
• 1:29:26
  scratches the hell out you and then.
• 1:29:28
  Yeah. And then it got ya and you're
• 1:29:30
  like, what and it but they just don't like that, but you learn
• 1:29:33
  that? Experience.
• 1:29:35
  Hmm, whereas but here's the thing, every class is different.
• 1:29:40
  Sometimes you do that your stroke, their belief re just
• 1:29:42
  they love it. So but exercise in consent and
• 1:29:47
  you know, but what you said specifically about in your
• 1:29:51
  handout and offering it and, you know, I do that every single
• 1:29:55
  time with dogs and cats and it's like a trust exercise and
• 1:29:59
  sometimes like Had this a lot with cats where they're like,
• 1:30:04
  sometimes we dogs to where they'll stick your hand and then
• 1:30:07
  they're just kind of decide I'm gonna walk away.
• 1:30:11
  Okay, you know, yeah, they they came they heard your question
• 1:30:17
  and they gave you a clear. No, and if they decide to they
• 1:30:21
  can change their mind and come back and give you a yes or ask
• 1:30:25
  you if you are interested in playing this game.
• 1:30:27
  So yeah, absolutely. And I think like I think this is
• 1:30:30
  another way that we're Being in terms of compassion for animals
• 1:30:35
  and that consent and having Humane living conditions and all
• 1:30:38
  of these things. I think part of this is, you
• 1:30:41
  know, when we think about like these changes being made and
• 1:30:43
  really any sort of what I consider more high-level change
• 1:30:48
  in society, right? That's not just purely about
• 1:30:50
  survival is when we get to a point where as a world or as a
• 1:30:55
  society or a country, we can have the time to expend on
• 1:31:00
  things that go beyond just just surviving and taking care of
• 1:31:04
  ourselves. Then we can expand into, you
• 1:31:08
  know, what does it mean to be human?
• 1:31:09
  What does it mean to be Humane towards animals and
• 1:31:11
  compassionate towards them and each other?
• 1:31:13
  And what is the world that we want to live in as opposed to?
• 1:31:16
  This is the world I live in and I have to react constantly to
• 1:31:20
  keep myself safe. Once we feel safe, we can expand
• 1:31:24
  into these bigger questions of what it means to live and to
• 1:31:28
  live a good life in this world and how to treat others.
• 1:31:30
  Pets and animals Looted, and I think we've gotten there
• 1:31:34
  compared to 100 years ago, 200 years ago.
• 1:31:37
  We've solved a lot of problems in terms of disease, right?
• 1:31:41
  Of course, we've created plenty of new problems as well.
• 1:31:44
  But between having so much more access to communication and
• 1:31:48
  connection around the world. Like I communicate with people
• 1:31:52
  from all continents all countries because I'm part of
• 1:31:56
  these International groups on Facebook, right?
• 1:31:58
  And I have all of this access to resources and to see even if
• 1:32:02
  There's not a community or culture represented in my home
• 1:32:05
  that I can see what this is like and like learn more and make
• 1:32:09
  these connections and see these patterns around the world, but I
• 1:32:11
  can do that because I have both the time and the calm energy to
• 1:32:16
  engage in this because I don't have to work three jobs to
• 1:32:19
  support my family because no one in my family, luckily knock on
• 1:32:24
  wood, has any sort of severe illness, right?
• 1:32:27
  That we are, that's consuming our time and our energy.
• 1:32:29
  So, you know, it's easy to say, like, oh, because Passionate and
• 1:32:32
  do this and do that. But our individual experiences
• 1:32:36
  in life and what we're dealing with and going through inform so
• 1:32:40
  much of that and I can't begrudge someone who has a sick
• 1:32:44
  child or a sick partner or a sick parent for not thinking
• 1:32:48
  about recycling, right? When they have something so big
• 1:32:52
  happening to them. But overall, I think humanity is
• 1:32:56
  kind of entering a golden age of this, where we have the ability
• 1:33:00
  to quickly solve problems to quickly connect with each other
• 1:33:03
  and to think Beyond. Just, this is what I'm doing to
• 1:33:06
  survive to do more planning of like what does sustainability
• 1:33:10
  mean in terms of how we live our lives and how corporations are
• 1:33:13
  set up and how companies do things, right?
• 1:33:16
  It's not just about like what's the short-term benefit and gain
• 1:33:19
  here, but how can we make this last for a really long time in a
• 1:33:23
  way? That is balanced and that
• 1:33:26
  doesn't create more harm in the world.
• 1:33:28
  And whether that's in terms of pollution or just corporate
• 1:33:32
  practices the cultures within workplaces and having some of
• 1:33:37
  that awareness of first like social and emotional development
• 1:33:43
  is key and understanding how we feel helps us understand how
• 1:33:47
  others feel. I think it's really hard to be
• 1:33:49
  empathetic. If you can't also be in tune
• 1:33:51
  with your own emotions and whether those are are hard
• 1:33:54
  emotions, like anger, and envy, and frustration and sadness or
• 1:34:00
  more positive emotions of, you know, happiness and joy and
• 1:34:03
  love, and all of these things. But you have to and you have to
• 1:34:07
  take the good and the bad. And I think this is where we are
• 1:34:11
  right now where we can do more of those things more and more of
• 1:34:14
  us can but we also have to be careful then not to raise the
• 1:34:18
  standard. So high that we look down on
• 1:34:21
  people who are in a season of their life where they can Do
• 1:34:24
  those things? Thank you for sharing.
• 1:34:28
  Love to get a couple more questions in before.
• 1:34:31
  We finish. Just standard questions.
• 1:34:34
  I ask every guest. What's the best advice you've
• 1:34:37
  ever received? Oh my gosh.
• 1:34:40
  This was actually super recent for me and it felt revolutionary
• 1:34:44
  and the advice was don't tell yourself.
• 1:34:47
  No. Let the other person tell, you
• 1:34:49
  know, if they're going to. So don't not ask a question
• 1:34:53
  because you Expect, it's going to be a, no ask the question.
• 1:34:57
  And if they are going to say, no, they can do that.
• 1:34:59
  But don't stand in your own way by never asking for something
• 1:35:02
  that you need or want to begin with.
• 1:35:04
  And I feel like that gave me permission to really free myself
• 1:35:08
  up to just go after something and say, like, you know, I want
• 1:35:12
  this thing, or I'm curious about X, and the other person can
• 1:35:16
  absolutely say no. And I can be okay with that.
• 1:35:19
  But I also sleep easier tonight knowing I didn't miss the
• 1:35:22
  opportunity, right? I did.
• 1:35:23
  Stand in my own way. So, don't tell yourself.
• 1:35:27
  No. Let the other person tell, you
• 1:35:28
  know, if they're going to put it in a vice.
• 1:35:32
  What's the biggest life lesson you've learned so far?
• 1:35:37
  Oh my goodness. I think the biggest life lesson
• 1:35:42
  is that for all the times that I feel like, you know, I need to
• 1:35:49
  give Grace to other people. I need to remember, just how
• 1:35:52
  much grace I receive in my own life.
• 1:35:55
  And that, it's not this like, Snobby thing that I'm doing
• 1:36:00
  because I am better than you to give you Grace when you make a
• 1:36:03
  mistake or something happens that you know, that harms me,
• 1:36:06
  but that it's really about reflecting on the fact that so
• 1:36:10
  many other people have done this for me that I'm not even
• 1:36:13
  necessarily aware of, you know, in those moments that that I
• 1:36:18
  have been giving Grace and that I should really put more of that
• 1:36:21
  out into the world myself and let things go and have more calm
• 1:36:27
  conversation. Ends, and give people the grace
• 1:36:30
  and the flexibility and understanding that I want.
• 1:36:32
  Because I know my intentions are good, and I think most people
• 1:36:35
  have good intentions and coming at them in aggressive ways,
• 1:36:40
  isn't helpful. So really putting out more grace
• 1:36:42
  in the world. Because knowing that there is
• 1:36:45
  lots of times that people show me Grace as well.
• 1:36:49
  Thank you so much. And as we draw things to a close
• 1:36:53
  for today, do you have any upcoming projects or some final
• 1:36:56
  thoughts that you'd like to share with our lessons?
• 1:36:58
  So I am a super, super excited about a project that I'm working
• 1:37:02
  on right now because again supporting animal Charities and
• 1:37:05
  nonprofits is very close to my heart and knowing that this is
• 1:37:09
  such a big need, not just here but all around the world.
• 1:37:12
  We are launching a fundraising initiative where animal
• 1:37:16
  organizations that feel. To our brand can take advantage
• 1:37:22
  of bulk, pricing to use condoms as a fundraising tool so that
• 1:37:26
  they can have like a really clear-cut shelf, stable product
• 1:37:29
  that takes a tiny tiny footprint that can be buzzworthy in terms
• 1:37:33
  of the name or like white labeled for their needs with
• 1:37:37
  their or co-branded, with their organizations information to
• 1:37:41
  help both raise funds for them. Raise awareness of declawing
• 1:37:46
  practices and sustainable alternatives to Clawing and also
• 1:37:50
  support their mission of having animals and pets taken care of,
• 1:37:55
  and with dignity respect and sustainability in mind.
• 1:37:58
  So that is one of the biggest things that I'm working on right
• 1:38:01
  now, and I'm really excited for that.
• 1:38:03
  Excellent. Well, best of luck with that and
• 1:38:05
  everything that you're you're doing in your life.
• 1:38:07
  It's been a real pleasure talking to you and getting to
• 1:38:10
  know you and sharing your story. And yeah, just a massive.
• 1:38:13
  Thank you for everything. Thank you.
• 1:38:15
  It's been an honor and a treat to get to know more about you as
• 1:38:18
  well. And I'm really grateful for you
• 1:38:22
  for sharing this time with me. Okay, Pleasures.
• 1:38:24
  Mine is always and all the listeners of Christian re
• 1:38:27
  podcast as always be safe. Be well, and I'll see you in the
• 1:38:32
  next one.