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We Unpack the True Origins of the Redskins and Commanders · Sports History Network

• 0:47
  Have you ever wondered how a 1929 silent film, the Boston Red Sox, and a fight song held hostage by the Dallas Cowboys all shape the history of the Washington football franchise?
• 0:56
  Well, on today's episode of the Pig Pen, author Mike Richmond joins us to unpack the definitive history of the Commanders and Redskins.
• 1:03
  We're cracking open his massive, newly updated Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia to explore the true origins behind the team's earliest names, the evolution of their iconic helmet logos, and why the franchise's historic Native American imagery is steadily making a
• 1:18
  comeback.
• 1:19
  Hello, my football friends.
• 1:20
  This is Darren Hayes@pigskindispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.
• 1:25
  And if you've ever wondered about the NFL franchises in our nation's capital, maybe their origin story, maybe who was a coach in 1957, or where did they play during the 1970s?
• 1:35
  Well, we have just the book for you, and we have the author on today.
• 1:39
  Our friend Mike Richmond has a new book out.
• 1:41
  Mike, welcome to the Pig Pen.
• 1:43
  Hey, Darren, thank you very much for having me again on your show.
• 1:46
  I know I've been on a number of times.
• 1:49
  I really appreciate it.
• 1:50
  Yeah, no problem.
• 1:51
  We appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about.
• 1:54
  You have this book out that maybe you could tell us what the name is and a little bit about it right now.
• 2:00
  Sure.
• 2:00
  My newest book is the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, Redskins and Commanders.
• 2:05
  I made sure to put both of those names in the title, and it's basically an update, a very big update to my first book, the Redskins Encyclopedia, which appeared in 2007.
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  So this is.
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  This new book includes 20 more years of the franchise's history, season by season, summaries.
• 2:25
  Many more player bios are in the book of Redskins, mostly Redskins greats from going back to that 2007 period.
• 2:35
  Right now, new sidebars in the book, the Death of Sean Taylor being one, and the Miraculous recovery by Alex Smith coming back from his injury to again play football.
• 2:48
  Those are a couple of sidebars I have in there.
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  So it's.
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  I can easily say it's the most comprehensive account ever written about this franchise.
• 2:57
  Yeah, it's a.
• 2:59
  No doubt.
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  I appreciate you and your.
• 3:01
  Your publisher sending me an advanced copy here to, to get a look at it.
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  And, you know, when we hear the name encyclopedia, you know, people may think of reference only, but no, just like you said, there's a lot of sidebars.
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  There's some stories in there.
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  It takes you some ins and outs, and it's a really great job of telling the history of the commander slash Redskins or Redskins slash Commanders.
• 3:22
  But what maybe is the biggest difference Besides the added 20 years between this version and the 2007 version?
• 3:31
  Well, I would say you'd have to say that it's a 20 years.
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  The additional season summaries and, and the, the new player bios.
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  London Fletcher, ryan Carrigan, Terry McLaurin, all those guys, Lorenzo Alexander, Alfred Mars.
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  Those guys are new in the book.
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  Those, those player bios and the sidebars too.
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  I mean, Sean Taylor was a big deal.
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  I mean, in my opinion, he was headed toward a Hall of Fame eventual Hall of Fame induction.
• 4:01
  And his murder really just shook Redskins nation and the franchise itself.
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  So I really, really went in detail on what happened to him and the vigils that were held the day he was shot.
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  And then the next day he passed away.
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  The vigils.
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  And also I went back to the initial manuscript as well.
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  I mean, I polished everything.
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  One topic I really wanted to look at is the origin of the Redskins name.
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  How, how was that name conceived and what was the impetus for it?
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  And the original owner and founder of the Redskins, George Preston Marshall.
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  There were three basic reasons that he chose that name.
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  One being so the very first season of existence, they were known as the Braves in 1932, and they played at Braves Field, the home on the campus of Boston University.
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  They lost their lease at Braves field after that 32 season.
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  So Marshall moved the team across town to Fenway park, home of the American leads, Boston Red Sox.
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  Now, as you know, Darren, at that time, some of the NFL teams were taking very similar names or identical names to major League Baseball teams.
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  They wanted to create that identity to increase their own popularity because the baseball teams, you know, they had been established for much longer period.
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  So that's where Marshall came up with Red for, with the connection to Red Sox.
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  And he kept the Native American theme that he had with the Braves.
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  So that was a part of Redskins as well.
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  He wanted to keep that Native American theme.
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  Secondly, he hired a coach named Lone Star Dietz who claimed to be a part blooded Native American, part Sioux.
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  So he named again, he chose Redskins in honor of Deets.
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  And he, he signed six, at least four players of Native American descent on that, on that roster.
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  So that was another reason it was an honor.
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  Those players too.
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  And thirdly, Marshall had an affinity for, for Hollywood.
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  He loved, you know, movies, silent movies.
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  His second wife was a silent movie star, Karine Griffith.
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  So there was one particular silent movie that he knew of called Redskin, which was it was a 1929 silent movie, was very sympathetic toward the plight of Native Americans.
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  And so that was another reason that he chose Redskins as the name for his football team.
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  I wanted to point out that there was nothing, there was nothing offensive that Marshall meant by choosing Redskins at that time.
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  And as you probably remember from my presentation, Pfra, I mean, Marshall, he had a connection with Pop Warner as well.
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  He knew Pop Warner.
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  And so somewhere along the way, Marshall got the idea to incorporate Indian style football into the early years of his own NFL franchise, which was a very fast moving style of play which the game really hadn't seen.
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  So that's all those elements you take into consideration.
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  That's how he came up with the name Redskins.
• 7:00
  Yeah.
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  So really no negative undertones or racism or anything really going on with the initial naming of this team.
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  This is just a name that was sort of cool, common, a movie's out about it.
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  It had Native Americans playing the game and just, just sort of, you know, commonplace of, you know, because definitely Native American ball players, you know, like you said, the Carlisle Indians and Jim Thorpe and you know, spilled over.
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  New Rang Indians, you know, played in the NFL I think a little bit before the Redskins franchise came in, but, you know, just all over the place.
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  They had some really great teams that were Native Americans, they were really great athletes and football really fit the bill for him.
• 7:45
  Right.
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  Actually, I mean, there was nothing offensive that Marshall meant by choosing that name that I really wanted to point that out because as you probably know, remember, so when the controversy, the most recent controversy regarding the Redskins name
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  first heated up around 2013, 2014, there was this connection made about Marshall, you know, being a racist, being the last owner to sign a black player.
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  And so therefore he must have had an incentive to choose a racist name for his, his football team.
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  So I just want to, I really want to clarify that.
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  I mean, yes, he was a racist in his refusal to, to sign a player of color, a black player.
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  I mean, he was the last NFL owner to do so, but he was not, he didn't have the, any racist motive for choosing the name Redskins.
• 8:31
  You.
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  Yeah, I think you brought it up in one of your earlier appearances on here that, you know, till like 1960, like when the Cowboys came in, the Washington D.C.
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  franchise was the southernmost franchise in the NFL.
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  They were, absolutely.
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  Yes, they were the southernmost.
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  It wasn't, it wasn't only the Cowboys.
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  It was the.
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  Well, the Atlanta Falcons came about in the mid-60s and then the New Orleans Saints, I wouldn't really count the Dolphins, but But Marshall owned that whole territory up until that time.
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  Those, when those franchises came about.
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  The Cowboys were 1960.
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  But up until that time, Marshall owned that, that entire territory.
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  That was, that was his region where.
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  And he took full advantage of it.
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  I mean, he started one of the first radio and television networks in the NFL.
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  I believe there was one on the west coast as well.
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  But, but Marshall, Marshall had a huge network in, in the Southeast US and actually the, the network even went up to New England.
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  So they, they were broadcast from New England all the way down to Florida and even as, as far west as Texas, which actually speaks to the, the controversy that took place between Marshall and, and the Cowboys.
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  He didn't want to let the Cowboys in the league.
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  And then Clint Murchison, who I believe was the owner of the Cowboys at the new franchise, he obtained the rights to the song Hail to the Redskins from Barney Breeskin, the composer of the song, who was.
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  Had a falling out with Marshall.
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  So he wanted to spite Marshall.
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  So he sold the rights to Murchison and, and Murchison said, well, I'm going to play your song if you don't let me into the league or something like that.
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  So Marshall relented it and let the Cowboys into the league and retain.
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  And retain the song as well.
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  So this almost takes Cowboys and Indians that we saw in the old western movies as enemies.
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  You know, really takes it full force.
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  And you know, definitely those two teams are definitely rivals to this day, as we see, you know, even when the teams are maybe having mediocre years, you're still a big game of the year because of the rivalry.
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  So here.
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  Right.
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  Well, the rivalry, you could say off the field started with that and started that, that the Cowboys were going to.
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  Or Murchison was going to maintain the rights to the song and prevent Marshall from playing Hail to the Redskins.
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  So that was the deal.
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  And so Marshall allowed them into the league.
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  He gave them a, you know, positive thumbs up to come into the league.
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  So he was able to retain a song.
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  But that was like the initial chapter, I guess you could say, in the rivalry of the, of the Redskins and Cowboys.
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  That rivalry on the field really started in the 1960s when Sonny Jurgensen was the quarterback of the Redskins.
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  That's when they, he was having all these high scoring games against Cowboys.
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  The Redskins were at best a mediocre team at that point.
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  And the Cowboys, they became a really good team around the mid-60s.
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  They made the NFL championship games in 66 and 67.
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  But still the Redskins held their own against Them and they were like high scoring games like 34, 31, 31, 30.
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  I called them wild shootouts at the O.K.
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  Corral.
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  Yeah, very.
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  Of course, George, George Allen intensified the rivalry in the, in the 70s.
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  Yeah, sometimes owners will do that.
• 11:47
  Huh?
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  Some owners like that.
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  Now they'll do that.
• 11:50
  So what, so do you think, you know, not to get too far off topic, but do you think maybe the position of, of society and of the franchise is softening a little bit?
• 12:02
  Because it looks almost like they're starting to bring some elements back of the Redskins, at least some symbolism back into the, the iconic iconology of the helmets and some other things.
• 12:16
  That's, that's an excellent point.
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  That's exactly what's happening.
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  I mean, I would have to say that Donald Trump, when he made the remarks in the summer of 25, he basically gave the team an ultimatum that you either bring back the name Redskins or you're gonna, you're not
• 12:31
  gonna be able to build a new stadium in D.C.
• 12:33
  since that time, the, the stadium, the, the, the team owner, Josh Harris, they've been gradually restoring the team's Native American tradition.
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  Number one this season, they have more of a burgundy, traditional burgundy gold look.
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  They reinserted Braves on the warpath back in the lyrics of the fight song.
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  And they recently had a sale in their online store, the team's online store.
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  They, they were selling Redskins merchandise.
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  They sold out of that in two days.
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  All this Redskins merchandise.
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  Now they had to do that to retain the trademark of the name Redskins, according to having that sale.
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  But still they sold out of all those goods in two days.
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  I would say don't be surprised if something happens in conjunction with the opening of the new stadium in 2030.
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  In terms of the name coming back.
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  I personally have a, have a really solid source within the Native American community who believed.
• 13:32
  Well, when I asked him that very question, do you think the name will come back?
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  He said, quote, buckle up.
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  So I'm just, you know, let's wait and see what happens.
• 13:43
  Yeah, most definitely now I think, you know, I don't have this as fact, but I just guessing here and just looking at, you know, and those are listening.
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  On the audio version of the podcast, Mike is wearing a retro hat that has the Redskins are circled with the feathers coming off it.
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  Behind him is the famous, you know, 1970s, 1980s, the helmet that we all grew up watching.
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  Redskins with the Indian chieftain's head on the side of the helmet.
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  They have probably had more logos for that franchise than probably any other franchise that I can Think of would you say that's maybe a fair assessment.
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  They have, they've had different designs of the helmet, everything from in the 50s.
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  They had feathers going down the middle of the helmet.
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  They had a spear on the helmet.
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  Oh, that's another thing.
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  Josh Harris announced just a week ago when they, when the team played in London that they are bringing back the spear and most likely they're going to have it permanently on the helmets starting in 2027.
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  He said it would previously, he said it would temporarily and this season the team.
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  But I think he's going to do it permanently starting in 2027.
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  So they're restoring that as well.
• 14:59
  So they had the spear on the helmet in the 1960s, the Sonny Jurgensen days.
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  Then it was Lombardi's idea to have the R on the helmet.
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  So in 69 when he coached the Redskins, they still had the spear that he passed away after that season or before the 70 season.
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  So, so he didn't get to see the R on the helmets in 70.
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  He wanted to do something similar to what the packers had, you know, the G on the helmet, the one letter.
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  So that it was his idea to have the R on the helmet.
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  However, in 1972, a very prominent Native American, Walter Blackie Wetzel, formerly president of the National Congress of American Indians.
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  And he was very, he was a black nation chief.
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  He was in Washington D.C.
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  and he was, he was a Redskins fan.
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  He got in with George Allen and he said, listen coach, I don't like the R on that on your helmets.
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  Why would you something honoring a Native American chief?
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  So Allen said, well, tell me what you want.
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  He brought back a composite of different Native American, different Indian chiefs.
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  And that's how we came up with the, with the logo that existed on the helmet for nearly half century before it was retired with the name in 2020.
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  And I want to say, I mean it's, it's, it's totally innocent.
• 16:17
  It's a totally innocent logo and it honors Native Americans and their, their warrior spirit and how courageous they are.
• 16:26
  And you've got this fierce looking Indian chief on the helmet.
• 16:30
  I mean it's just this, I think the, the Redskins really meant well by having that logo on, on their helmets that the Chief Wetzel, I mean he, he wanted to honor Native Americans and the, the Redskins certainly agreed
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  to do that.
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  And so I think if nothing else, that logo should come back.
• 16:51
  That was, that logo that we're seeing behind you.
• 16:53
  Is that indicative of maybe a famous chieftain?
• 16:57
  Is it somebody in particular or is it just Sort of a generic version of an Indian chief head.
• 17:04
  Well, I've heard the story, and the Redskins have told this in past years, that.
• 17:08
  That the logo, the image is mostly Chief Two Guns White Calf, who was a.
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  He was a prominent leader of Native Americans in the early 20th century.
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  He actually fought for Native American civil rights in the country.
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  He was a Blackfeet chief as well, just like Wetzel, but he was in the early 20th century.
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  And he was also the image on the buffalo nickel that was minted in 1913.
• 17:33
  However, I've.
• 17:34
  Now, I've heard from a good source within the Native American community that it's not so much Two Guns White Cap, that it was more of a collection, more.
• 17:46
  Many more chiefs that were combined into a composite for that image.
• 17:52
  So there seems to be, at least in my mind, there's a little bit of confusion whether it was really Two Guns Whitecap, but.
• 17:59
  But that's the story that has been told over the years.
• 18:02
  But I.
• 18:02
  I have a little bit of doubt about that.
• 18:05
  That sort of makes it more inclusive of all the tribes and representing.
• 18:09
  Of all Native American, you know, tribes and different sections of the country.
• 18:15
  So that would probably be a good way to do it, too, if they did it.
• 18:19
  I can see that.
• 18:20
  Yeah.
• 18:20
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:21
  I mean, that.
• 18:22
  That's basically what.
• 18:24
  What the.
• 18:24
  What Alan asked the chief to do is come back with, you know, an idea, and he.
• 18:29
  He brought back, you know, a composite, different.
• 18:31
  A collection of different Indian chiefs, from what I understand.
• 18:36
  I think that's the way it transpired.
• 18:38
  Yeah.
• 18:39
  All right, so let's get into the book a little bit now.
• 18:41
  I've got the, you know, the luxury of perusing it.
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  And again, I thank you and your publicist for sending this to me, but I love it because it is like a chronological.
• 18:51
  Just trip down memory lane, and it starts at the beginning.
• 18:54
  It works its way to the end like any good book does.
• 18:57
  And, you know, you can find things pretty easy, too, if you do want to use it.
• 19:01
  And I talked earlier, you know, it's not just a reference, but you can use it as a reference thing.
• 19:07
  Was that sort of your intent and is that sort of your strategy of putting the book together?
• 19:17
  Certainly.
• 19:18
  I mean, I want people to use it as a reference, but also just for your.
• 19:22
  Your casual reader.
• 19:23
  I mean, obviously it is a lot of reading, so, you know, you're going to take the normal person to, you know, a few days to go through the entire book.
• 19:31
  But I started from the very beginning in the 1920s, when Marshall first conceived of the idea for a football franchise.
• 19:39
  I mean, he owned a basketball team in D.C.
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  and that's how he.
• 19:42
  In that league, the American Basketball League.
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  That's how he met Alice and he met Joe Carr, who was the NFL commissioner at the time.
• 19:49
  And they influenced him to start a NFL or to buy an NFL franchise.
• 19:54
  And he started it up in Boston.
• 19:55
  So that's how I started.
• 19:57
  It's.
• 19:57
  It's an easy read in terms of, you know, chronologically, season by season, starting in 1932, all the way through the 2025 season.
• 20:07
  So it's very easy.
• 20:08
  You know, somebody could say, hey, you know, I want to, you know, reminisce about what happened in the 1972 season or whatever.
• 20:15
  You know, like, the Redskins went to the super bowl that year.
• 20:18
  That was their first super bowl appearance.
• 20:19
  Easily turned the Pages to the 1972 season.
• 20:22
  Their player bios, they're in alphabetical order.
• 20:26
  One chapter is all the hall of Famers, all the teams, hall of Famers, they're in alphabetical order.
• 20:32
  Then another chapter is the best of the rest.
• 20:34
  They're in alphabetical.
• 20:35
  Alphabetical order.
• 20:37
  So it's very, very easy to look through.
• 20:39
  I mean.
• 20:39
  Yeah, very easy to define what you want.
• 20:41
  I mean, an index would help, but I think you could basically, you know, if you know the year, you know, the, you know, basic.
• 20:48
  Generally when the player played for the team, you can find out what you're looking for.
• 20:54
  Yeah, and I failed to mention this, but even before you get into the origin story, in the beginning, you have a couple really nice forwards by some pretty famous Redskins players.
• 21:07
  Maybe you could tell us a little bit about those folks.
• 21:10
  Sure.
• 21:10
  Well, both of them have been great sources of mine over the years for interviews.
• 21:15
  They've always been there for me.
• 21:17
  First was Joe Theisman.
• 21:18
  I mean, he's.
• 21:19
  He's just been fabulous.
• 21:21
  All the interview requests that I've made of him, he.
• 21:24
  He's agreed to.
• 21:25
  And he's given me so much information.
• 21:28
  He.
• 21:29
  See, he.
• 21:29
  I think he's probably the most important person I've ever interviewed in any of my Redskins work because he, He.
• 21:37
  He transcended three different coaching eras.
• 21:40
  I mean, he went from George Allen.
• 21:43
  Allen acquired him in 1974.
• 21:45
  Then he had Jack Pardee after Allen, and then he had Joe Gibbs.
• 21:50
  So he was a key player in the early years of the Joe Gibbs glory years.
• 21:55
  So he was great.
• 21:56
  He wrote one of the forwards.
• 21:58
  Ryan Mitchell wrote the other forward.
• 22:00
  And he's always been terrific with interviews.
• 22:03
  When I actually had a TV show on the local cable Access channel here in Montgomery County, Maryland.
• 22:08
  He appeared on the show, we did it at Buffalo Wild Wings and he's always been great, always great with interviews and very insightful, very articulate.
• 22:18
  He's on the, one of the local radio stations here 106.7 gives great analysis of the team and he speaks his mind too.
• 22:26
  He's very good.
• 22:27
  Yeah.
• 22:27
  Yeah, I'm sure both these guys were probably fan favorites too, both in their playing days and post career that people can really enjoy.
• 22:36
  But yeah, some very good words, kind words and really supporting you in your book coming up in the beginning of that book.
• 22:43
  So very nice, I think Brian.
• 22:45
  Thank you.
• 22:45
  I think Brian Mitchell actually should be in the hall of Fame.
• 22:48
  If he in all around yardage, all purpose yardage.
• 22:50
  He, he's second all time to Jerry Rice, if I'm correct, in all purpose yardage.
• 22:59
  I, yeah, he was in the hall of Fame.
• 23:03
  He was sort of that multifaceted back that could do it all before they became real popular like they did in the west coast offense.
• 23:11
  I think, I think he's either second or, or first all time in all purpose yardage.
• 23:16
  I cannot see why he's, he's not in the hall of Fame.
• 23:18
  I mean, Devin Hester, you know, the knock on Mitchell is that he was primarily a return man.
• 23:22
  Well, so was Devin Hester, so.
• 23:24
  Yeah, that's true.
• 23:25
  Hey, they have a kicker and a punter in the, the hall of Fame, so there's specialty people that do things.
• 23:32
  But yeah, I agree with you.
• 23:33
  Mitchell was a lot more than that because I can remember him running the ball and ran some offensive plays.
• 23:37
  He was a weapon.
• 23:38
  He was absolutely a weapon.
• 23:40
  Running back and receiver.
• 23:41
  He was a great, great pass receiver out of the backfield.
• 23:44
  Yeah.
• 23:44
  All right, so other than maybe, you know, you talked a little bit about Sean Taylor and you have quite a write up in there and I won't spoil that for the people that want to read this because it's
• 23:53
  a great read.
• 23:54
  But in the origin story where it was maybe one of the more surprising new pieces of information you put in the book that you got into research and maybe you weren't expecting,.
• 24:07
  I would have to say it was Alex Smith.
• 24:12
  I really think so.
• 24:13
  I mean, I didn't know all of the elements that went into his recovery is he.
• 24:18
  First of all, he was at a Army, army rehab center in Texas.
• 24:23
  I didn't know that.
• 24:25
  I don't think I'd ever read about that.
• 24:27
  So just everything he went through in his, his miraculous recovery, I mean, I think it was really, really.
• 24:34
  I, I didn't expect everything that I learned about him, but there were other players that I featured in this edition of the book that I didn't in the first.
• 24:44
  Of course, Trent Williams being one of them.
• 24:46
  He should still be Redskin, in my opinion, right now, future hall of Famer.
• 24:51
  But, yeah, I mean, so I would have to say, in answer to your question, Alex Smith.
• 24:56
  Yeah, Alex Smith.
• 24:57
  I didn't realize.
• 24:58
  I mean, I knew he was injured and I.
• 25:00
  It was, it was brutal watching, you know, when you watch the replays of it when it happened and everything, but I didn't realize how devastating it was until maybe the, the sandal commercial he was on.
• 25:09
  When they showed his leg, you know, even after healed, it was.
• 25:13
  I mean, it was really.
• 25:14
  He was near amputation actually.
• 25:16
  Yeah, it looked really bad after he recovered, you know, it was unbelievable.
• 25:19
  He stepped on a football field again.
• 25:22
  Well, shortly after the initial surgery, he developed something like, like a gangrene.
• 25:27
  It was like an infection of some type from the, from the surgery.
• 25:31
  And his, his leg was like black and totally black and blue.
• 25:35
  It looked.
• 25:36
  I think he was.
• 25:37
  He was not that far from amputation.
• 25:40
  It was, it was very, very, very scary.
• 25:43
  Yeah.
• 25:44
  Okay, so did you add anything besides the origin story, did you add anything that you had in the book before to any of your stories, like a particular year that you maybe found some new information on prior to
• 25:57
  2007?
• 26:00
  I actually did.
• 26:01
  And again, going back to the name, I wanted to point this out.
• 26:05
  So in the 1950s in particular, George Preston Marshall used images of Native American chiefs on his game programs.
• 26:14
  So I have a image of Osceola, the famous Seminole leader, on the COVID of a 1953 Redskins game program.
• 26:23
  So I incorporate.
• 26:24
  Incorporated that.
• 26:25
  And I also did a little bit of a write up on that, too, explaining what that in the program, you know, he was called a, you know, courageous leader, a warrior, and everything was.
• 26:37
  Was flattering in terms of.
• 26:38
  Of what the team was saying in its.
• 26:40
  In his program about Osceola.
• 26:42
  And they also used very similar language about the other chiefs that they had on the covers of their, Their programs.
• 26:47
  But I did want to.
• 26:48
  I incorporated.
• 26:49
  I did not have that in the first book, so I incorporated that into the, the update, the new edition.
• 26:56
  Yeah, I mean, that's kind of neat if they did that in the program and gave you a little bit of a history lesson on this person that people probably didn't even know existed.
• 27:03
  But definitely important to American history, you know, to be able to tell their story.
• 27:10
  Oh, absolutely, yeah.
• 27:11
  I mean, I think it all ties in with the fact that over the years, and Redskins fans, fans of the franchise, longtime fans of the franchise will agree with me, that name has only been meant to honor Native
• 27:24
  Americans, and it's only been used in the context of a sports team, a professional sports franchise.
• 27:30
  I want to make all those points.
• 27:32
  Yeah, well, I know that you're working on something new, and before we get into that, why don't we give the name of this book one more time and where folks can get a copy of it?
• 27:42
  Sure.
• 27:42
  It's the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, Redskins and Commanders.
• 27:47
  And anyone can get an autographed copy signed by yours truly on my website, mikerichmanjournalist.com mikerichmanjournalist.Com it's also available through your traditional sources, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and also the publisher, Globe Pico.
• 28:07
  Okay.
• 28:07
  And folks, if you, if you're driving, don't have a pen or you're not watching the video where we're trying to flash this up on the screen, you can go in the show notes of the YouTube video or of
• 28:15
  the podcast notes, and we'll get you hooked up to Mike and take him up on that offer and get, get a copy of this great book in your hands.
• 28:23
  Now let's talk about what you're working on right now and what we can expect for the future.
• 28:29
  So, sure, I'm writing a biography on Sonny Jurgensen, the Hall of Fame quarterback, a longtime Redskins radio broadcaster, an incredible D.C.
• 28:38
  sports icon, writing a biography on him.
• 28:42
  It's due out in 2028, and I'm totally immersed in it right now.
• 28:46
  I'm actually in, in his Eagles years, he played for his first seven seasons in the NFL, he played for the Eagles.
• 28:53
  So I'm almost done with, with that chapter.
• 28:55
  And then I'll, I'll jump into, to the trade to the Redskins and which those Redskins here says 11 seasons with the Redskins, I mean, that was his, that was the heyday of his career.
• 29:05
  But he also had some very good seasons with the Eagles after he took over from Norm Van Brocklin following the Eagles championship in 1960.
• 29:12
  So I'm getting into all of that and, you know, his image as a, as a playboy, which really started in Philadelphia, and his night love for the nightlife and, you know, all that really, really began in Philadelphia.
• 29:24
  So, but yeah, and then I'm going to, after the, after his football career, talk about the fact that he, his first true broadcasting job was with cbs.
• 29:35
  He was, he was doing NFL games for CBS right after retirement and he was with CBS for more than five years and then he, he left the network after the 81 season and he was hired by the Redskins
• 29:48
  as part of the Redskins radio team.
• 29:51
  And they let became the legendary team of Frank Herzog, Sam Huffit, Sonny Jorgensen, Frank, Sam and Sunny.
• 29:57
  And they were together for about.
• 29:58
  Well, Herzog was there for like they were.
• 30:04
  Those three were together about 25 years.
• 30:06
  But Sonny was, was a Redskins color radio color analyst for almost 40 years.
• 30:12
  Wow.
• 30:13
  Many people would argue today that he's the most popular sports figure in D.C.
• 30:17
  history.
• 30:18
  And I would have to say that is the case.
• 30:20
  I would think he, he inches out.
• 30:23
  John Riggins.
• 30:25
  Yeah, yeah, he was, he was definitely entertaining not only to watch as a player, but I can remember I didn't unfortunately I never got to listen to him on broadcasting on the Redskins network.
• 30:37
  But you know, as an analyst on television for the national games, he was great.
• 30:43
  He gave you some real good insight back in a time where you didn't have a whole lot of, you know, athletes that were talking about the games ins and outs like they do today.
• 30:52
  Right.
• 30:53
  It was very refreshing to hear that and learn a little bit more about the game and what's going on in the huddle and under the helmet.
• 30:59
  Well, along those lines, CBS actually experimented with him in the booth.
• 31:05
  Madden and Brookshire, Tom Brookshire, because I'm sorry, it was Sonny, Pat Summerall and Brookshire and so Jurgensen and Brookshire were actually teammates on the Eagles back in the late 50s, early 60s.
• 31:19
  So they knew each other well.
• 31:20
  So CBS experimented with that before it was summer all in Madden, they, they experimented with that around 81 and then they went to summer, Madden, Summerall, starting in 82.
• 31:32
  But so they experimented with those three in the booth.
• 31:36
  It was not the most popular thing to do, a three man booth.
• 31:39
  It wasn't the, the easiest thing to do.
• 31:41
  I mean not, you know, directors and producers were not all on the same page regarding the three man booth.
• 31:47
  But they, they did try it out.
• 31:49
  It definitely worked on Monday nights, so didn't it in that area?
• 31:52
  It did.
• 31:52
  Yeah, it did.
• 31:54
  They, they made it work.
• 31:55
  Yeah, I guess they allowed Howard Cosell to, they had no problem with him dominating the conversation.
• 32:02
  Yeah, that's for sure.
• 32:04
  He came up with some, some beauties, that's for sure.
• 32:07
  Sort of out of left field, but that was what made it great, you know, and then how the other other ones would react to it.
• 32:13
  But yeah, interesting, interesting era.
• 32:16
  So Mike, we look forward to this book in 2028 coming out on Jurgensen.
• 32:20
  And you know right now though people, you can get a copy of this book and Mike's going to give you a title of it one more time and where you can get it.
• 32:28
  It's the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, Redskins and Commanders and you can get an author autograph copy by going to my website, www.mikerichmanjournalist.com and it's also available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other traditional sources.
• 32:46
  Mike, we really appreciate you writing this and preserving the football history of the Redskins and Commanders franchise and coming on here and talking about with us tonight.
• 32:55
  So thank you.
• 32:56
  Thank you very much Darren for having me on.
• 32:59
  As always, that's all the football history.
• 33:02
  We have today, folks.
• 33:03
  Join us back tomorrow for more of your football history.
• 33:08
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• 33:20
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• 33:22
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• 33:34
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• 33:42
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• 33:47
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