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What the project economy means for your career · Project Podcast

0:15
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita, and I'm
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the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
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today. In this podcast, we're talking
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to Antonio Nieto Rodriguez, HBR, author and Vice President of
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APM, about his new book, Powered by Projects Leading Your
0:37
Organisation in the Transformation Age, which is
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published by Harvard Business Review Press in January 2026.
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In it, he argues that CEOs must put projects, not operations, at
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the centre of how their companies create value.
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But where does that leave the project managers in that
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organisation? And how can every project
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professional future proof themselves?
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Welcome, Antonio to the APM Podcast.
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Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Emma.
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It's always a pleasure talking to you and talking to our APM
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colleagues. Thanks.
1:10
Thank you. Well, I'm going to dive straight
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in there. And in your new book, you argue
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that organisations should be organised around projects, not
1:22
operations. Why?
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It's because what in a business you have two main areas and and
1:30
all goes around them, the operations, we call it business
1:34
as usual, running your business or your organisation that has
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been the focus of the last hundred 150 years.
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And then there's the change part in the projects and, and so far
1:49
most organisations have been built around operations and
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projects are site activities. And then what we've seen is
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with, with technology, things are moving much faster.
2:01
That's why we saw the, the, the creation of agile and, and agile
2:06
organisations. So that's right.
2:08
That movement tried to disrupt how things were done in
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organising the past and they they didn't do it that part.
2:17
So it created new ways of working.
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But agile is not the final because a stage for me, the
2:24
final story when operations shifts and projects come on, on,
2:28
on, on the top, on the core. And that's how I came with the
2:32
with the concept of project driven projects are the centre
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projects are the value creation of a business.
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And and that's how I came with the name.
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I know in your book you kind of explain how we got to the
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situation, but I definitely remember interviewing project
2:50
professionals during COVID and suddenly they were propelled
2:54
from being the project managers to keep the business going.
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And I think that really did a lot to elevate the understanding
3:00
of project management and the status of the organisation, how
3:03
critical they they actually were keeping the business going.
3:07
Do you? That's part of the reason that
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that organisations are shifting more to being project focus to
3:15
organise around projects. I think the the bigger shift MI
3:20
is the the high level of automation that we're seeing,
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robotising and AI, which luckily for the time being, AI and
3:31
robots will not be running projects.
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They will be very important artner for us, but the main
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target is every activity that is reetitive, every role that I
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always say, if you're working with the same people all the
3:45
time and you do similar them things all the time, that means
3:50
that your job is at stake. So all these activities are
3:54
going to be replaced by this new technology.
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So what is left for people? Where do we need the people?
4:00
Where do we need our capabilities is in change in
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transformation projects. So I think that's where the
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biggest trans change or disruption happens.
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And the the only challenge is I don't know how fast this will
4:15
happen. Yeah, maybe in six years, maybe
4:18
in one year, because these are moving very fast, these new
4:24
technologies. This really is like a
4:27
transformational shift in the way that we see the management
4:30
of organisations and and the way CEO views their organisation.
4:35
This is, although I imagine there are some, or you do
4:37
mention some organisations in the book that have shifted
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towards this way of running things.
4:43
But just leaving aside the CEO perspective at the moment, where
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does that leave project managers in an in an organisation?
4:55
Yeah, let me just give a bit of context also on the book, Emma
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and I answer your. So one of the main drivers for
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me to write this book was trying to find the formula that will
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increase the success rate of projects and transformations.
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And there has been lots of books around that.
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But I finally understood that if we want to increase or the
5:18
success of our projects, numbers can go from 90% of real mega
5:24
projects are not delivered on time or on budget to 7060% some
5:30
other. How can we do that?
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And, and I realised that if we want to succeed on that, you
5:37
need to work on three levels. It's not just that you do your
5:40
projects better, that you build capabilities around project, you
5:44
integrate hybrid methods, you put some AI, you have to do
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that, but you also need to work on the leadership.
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They are really key players in in terms of launching priorities
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in sponsorship and and they mostly don't know how to do
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that. And then you have the
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organisation. So the hierarchies, the
6:04
structures, the culture, which also impacts everything.
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So in order to increase the success, you cannot work in one
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of the elements or or just two. We need to work holistic on the
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three. And that's how I structure the
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book as well. And to your question, it's where
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do the project managers fit in this?
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I think we have a unique opportunity to be become really
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business drivers, business leaders.
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Like you mentioned, Emma, during COVID, we stepped up.
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We believed in ourselves. We drove companies that look
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like going to bankrupt into survival and then back into
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business. And I think for us, there's an
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opportunity to move from that role that many people perceive
6:55
as pushing dates or pushing the liver balls and tasks and to
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something where we really bring value, we shape the
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organisation. So not everybody will be fit for
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that. But I think there's that
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opportunity that we should be taking advantage.
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And that's the message I give in the book as well.
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We we've never been in this position as we are today to, to,
7:22
to, to get to a higher level. I just wanted to pick up on one
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thing that you talked about there around leadership.
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Do you were you talking about leadership in general within
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organisations or were you talking about project leaders?
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I'm talking about general in in leaders, in general, media
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managers, executives, they one of the things that strikes me
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the most MI is that most senior leaders, executives, they like
7:53
to spend most of their time in their comfort zone.
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And comfort zone for leaders today is running the business is
8:01
their operations. That's what they know, that's
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where they have the power. That's how they have
8:06
hierarchies, they have their budgets and they play all the
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silos. And but this is wrong.
8:12
This is maybe good for the past, but this will not take you to
8:16
the future. And so where I say the leaders
8:19
need to spend more time in their so out so uncomfortable outside
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their call, that's transformation work.
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That's where there's no hierarchies.
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That's where it's more about charisma, leadership, vision and
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and there is absolutely a need to force that to happen.
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And that means also that we are more comfortable.
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That means that we'll have opportunities to take the roles
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to, to, to, to, to build the future through this more
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uncomfortable zone where uncertainties is this everyday
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is a life of us. So that's what I mean about
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leadership. These people very important.
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They don't like to spend time on what we do because it's
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uncomfortable. So then to ask you more
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explicitly, what opportunities does a shift towards a project
9:15
economy present to project professionals?
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But already it's this big recognition that the entire
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organisation or the leadership of that organisation needs,
9:27
needs to have those skills or at least understand project
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professionals will use them in a way, in a better way to
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integrate them further up the corporate kind of chain.
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Do you want to tell me a bit more about that side?
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Yeah, I think we have a role, a new role for me when, when I
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teach at the corporates, I say to the project, the project
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managers who have already certain experience, I say your
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role today is not just to deliver projects on time, on
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budget. First.
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The, the, the main reason why we do projects is for benefits, for
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outcomes. So is really understand the
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benefits and the outcomes and think how can we deliver them
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not just on time, on budget, but faster.
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And that's how you, you work to engage the senior leaders.
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But another very important role I see is that many of these
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organisations, I'm not talking about really project driven
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organisations like construction and consulting law firms,
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talking about the ones that have both operations.
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But many people are uncomfortable with change.
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Many of your colleagues will they go to work for routine
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work, they go to work for stability.
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They won that 9:00 to 5:00 comfort, not too much shake up.
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And these people are seriously at risk.
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So I think I see my role as also a coach for all these people to
11:08
tell them that change is good, that there's very good things
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about working in projects where you meet new people, you have
11:15
other challenges. So we have a dual roll off
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focusing on on on benefits and delivering value, but also
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bringing the organisation along into this journey for stability
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to more fast change and constant transformations, which I think
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is exciting. Yeah, I mean, and you're kind of
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saying that project professionals, this is their
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bread and box are dealing with change and being on top of
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things the whole time work and maybe different projects at the
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same time, but having having that resilience as well.
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So, so I, so I think I'm answering my own question when
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I, I wanted to ask you, do you think, think this shift away
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from operations towards projects is a good thing for project
12:03
managers then? I absolutely think it's a, it's
12:08
a natural because because this is what organisations are
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looking for. And the examples I talk about,
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the book goes to the point Higher, for example, this
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Chinese company that was struggling completely
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transformed how they operate. But in Higher, any project
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manager or any employee can be an entrepreneur within Higher.
12:30
You can come up with a great idea, you can get funding from
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the leadership and you execute that project.
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But then you are the CEO of and the, the, the, the entrepreneur
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of of your project that will deliver value for hire as a
12:47
whole. So we're, we're removing the
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very narrow view of project life cycle where the ideas happen
12:55
with some other people and the delivery of value happens with
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other people. And we just take an idea and,
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and build it and, and then so we we go more end to end instead of
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just very narrow focus on on what we used to see as project
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life cycle. This is this this talk around
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how organisations are set up around projects and employees
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that's been that's been around for a couple of decades now.
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It wasn't called this. It was, I can't remember the
13:24
name of it, but there's a gay various gay video games
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companies who child that, but it's like anti hierarchical just
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everyone's in their own. Yeah.
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Holocracies. They call it holocracies.
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Yeah, holocracies, that's right. Yeah, yeah.
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So it there's a natural evolution of holocracy.
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Is this holocracy is not what you?
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Think no holocracy is completely cows it's it's it's the strife
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on cows yeah. So it's, but there's just, I
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think, I think one thing that is very clear again back to the
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point of increasing success of transformation is when I tell
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this to some senior leaders, they don't like that.
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But in projects, there's no hierarchy.
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In programmes transformation, there shouldn't be any
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hierarchy. There's maybe 2 levels of
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hierarchy, right? You have the senior leaders and
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the and it's a team that works together to take decisions
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together that drives the change. But when you put the 510 levels
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of hierarchy, you just slow down.
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It's just obvious. It's just you want more people
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overseeing than actually executing.
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This is not completely chaos or, or lack of, but just flatten up
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completely, right. And and that's that there's
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still some governance. I talk of different models of of
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governance to be more flexible governance, but it's very thin.
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It's I'm the project manager. If I need to talk to the CEO of
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my company today because I need a decision, I call.
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I don't need to ask permission to that person that will ask
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permission to the other. And then I can talk maybe to the
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CEO in four weeks, no? If the project's economy takes
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off, is there a danger that everyone will say, OK, I need to
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be seen to be a project manager? And what's is quite common is
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for people to call themselves project managers when actually
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they're not or don't have no professional qualifications.
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Or, you know, it's easy for us for someone to call themselves
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that. And conversely, there are people
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who are project managing who, who have figured it out their
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own way and actually is legitimate.
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But what I mean, is there a downside?
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Won't won't just everyone want to add project managers to their
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job role but not really knowing what it is or haven't been
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trained in it? I think the, the danger is
15:45
there. I think we're not moving.
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I think we're moving away from traditional roles too.
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So I think we're going to be working on, on teams and things
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will be based on skills and, and maybe interests and, and
15:58
aspirations. And there will be a coordinator
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or a leader, maybe it's called project leader, maybe programme
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transformation leader. But I don't think we all need to
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be programme leaders. It's like we'll find roles that
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we can play within the transformation initiative for a,
16:15
a project and then we'll move to another one.
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The case of buyer and the new CEO who said we're going to
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transform buyer and they're going to be just teams of people
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like 5000 teams that work for 90 days together and they they move
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to another type of project. So these are a big experiment
16:34
I'm following, but doesn't mean that everyone will be called
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project leader. I think there will be natural
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leaders. There will be some of us who
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maybe move to something more specific to what we like on
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people, on communication, on stakeholders, but not everybody
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will will be leading this type of projects.
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Do you think there'll be a greater demand for kind of
17:00
professionally qualified project managers?
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I completely believe so, Emma, But we do need to adapt.
17:09
We cannot. We cannot keep doing projects
17:14
the way we did it so far. We need to understand new
17:17
things, obviously integrating AI in our tool set and, and daily
17:22
activities. And we need to step up as well
17:25
into more leadership and value creation and, and understanding
17:30
people. So I, I, I don't see, I always
17:33
say there's one word that is, is more use than AI, which is very
17:40
difficult, right? Today in business, it's
17:43
transformation. And, and for me, that's what I
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always call this in terms what I do in companies, I build their
17:52
internal transformation muscle, which means the company as a
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whole has this capability to transform.
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Today will be AI, but maybe in two years there will be
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something else. So in so far we've used a lot of
18:09
consultants in good sense to do the transformation for you.
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But now it's you cannot rely on external resources, you need to
18:19
build that. For me, that's the number one
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priority for any CEO or board is build that capability to adapt
18:26
constantly with pace involving the organisation.
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And that's where project leaders can thrive, right?
18:35
That's where we can build those capable.
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That's what I was saying. We're a bit coaches, ambassadors
18:41
to get these skills embedded in the organisation.
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Actually, that kind of follows into my next question really
18:48
neatly, which is how can project professionals help those outside
18:54
of the profession, but within their organisation to better
18:58
understand what project management is and how you do it?
19:04
Well, and then a kind of corollary question to that would
19:09
be how do you get the two to speak to each other in a way in
19:12
a kind of common language? Because that seems to be, you
19:15
know, there's this every function has its language and
19:21
general management business language is different to project
19:24
management. Like you say, people, there's a
19:26
misconception that, you know, project managers, they just deal
19:29
with the data and the Gantt charts, which is so outdated,
19:33
but still no doubt a common perception.
19:37
So what? How should, what can project
19:40
professionals do to really, I get I guess shed light on what
19:44
it is they do and what it actually means?
19:48
I have a, really my favourite definition, Emma, of what we do
19:54
is projects are your future. So what do project manager, They
20:01
build the future, they deliver the future within their
20:05
companies. You might do it at minor scale
20:08
or big scale. If projects fail, there's no
20:10
future. That's so clear.
20:13
So I think this this should be inspirational because often I
20:17
find that we are a profession that doesn't brag.
20:20
We were very humble. We felt very critical with
20:23
ourselves. We're tough, very tough with
20:25
ourselves. We look at people doing strategy
20:28
or operations or business like there, there are Big Brothers
20:32
there. But no, I think we need to
20:34
completely shift that if we are the ones who deliver the future
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and if we fail, the future is going to be dark.
20:42
So you're all future builders and, and there's nothing more
20:47
beautiful as a job than people who build the future.
20:52
And, and in terms of alignment is when we learn to speak about
20:59
our projects and the benefits that they deliver, not about
21:06
what the product will do. I'm I'm sure many of you all are
21:10
doing a data project or a new platform or a new application or
21:15
a reorganisation. Nobody cares about the things we
21:19
need to understand always the why, the purpose and when you
21:22
start knowing about the why. And often these projects like an
21:26
HR system could be just an HR system.
21:29
But maybe the system really purpose is to increase the
21:32
engagement of employees who feel really bad for the last two
21:37
years. And this system will help us to
21:39
create a more community feeling and and with that will increase
21:43
engagement. So you see how different it
21:45
looks and how much engagement you'll get by learning.
21:48
And then the benefits, one thing that I think we've done wrong
21:52
for many years, that's why benefits has not worked so far
21:56
is because many of the things that we do in projects are done
22:01
like operations. That means hierarchical top
22:04
down. Forget about all what is
22:07
hierarchical in projects. Projects are Co creation and you
22:13
start Co creating with the benefits.
22:15
I'm going to launch a project and I go to you, Emma, who I
22:18
need you because you have a team that works in digital marketing
22:23
and said, Emma, listen, this project is strategic, but what
22:27
is there something that I can help you with this project?
22:31
Oh, Antonio, we can increase Net Promoter score.
22:34
I think that's a big priority for us.
22:36
So I, I start engaging you, not imposing.
22:39
Listen, Emma, the system will do all these things.
22:41
You don't care how tall and by asking you what do you think
22:46
this project will bring to you? And then you say Net Promoter
22:50
score is a big thing for us and we need to go from 60 to 90.
22:54
Can you help? I say, yeah, I think we'll put
22:57
this a priority. And then you will tell me,
22:59
Antonio, how can I help you? Do you need people from me?
23:03
So we need to stop running projects like operations and
23:07
from the benefits, from the scope definition, from the
23:11
controlling to more Co cooperation.
23:14
And once you start talking benefits, I get attention
23:18
because it's not my benefits, it's our benefits.
23:20
So that's the other thing, right?
23:22
The the future projects are your future.
23:25
And then move from talking to the what and the labour boards,
23:30
which are important, but nobody cares.
23:32
Do the benefits that people care?
23:36
Thank you. There's a lot to take in there.
23:38
One of the things that is occurring to me is that if
23:42
you're a project professional listening to this and you want
23:46
to be part of this project economy, how, what kinds of
23:53
things should you be doing to make yourself ready for it?
23:56
So I'm talking about mindset or the way you approach projects
24:02
because one thing that's jumping out at me recently when I speak
24:07
to people who've led successful projects, be they large or
24:10
small, is the level of collaboration that that seems so
24:14
important now. So it's the kind of people
24:16
skills and clarity of purpose and also a greater emphasis on
24:25
the exact on, on the benefits, but also has, you know,
24:28
measuring them, explaining to them, sticking them around long
24:31
enough to to see the benefits. I don't know, there seems to be
24:34
a big shift. But if you're if you want to get
24:36
ready for this feature that you're describing, what what
24:39
should you be thinking about or doing right now as a project
24:42
manager? I think mindset is very
24:47
important, trusting yourself, being proud of what you do.
24:51
Think about that being building the future, the future of your
24:54
companies in your hands. So feel the pressure as well of
24:57
delivering, right. It's really important and the
25:01
mindset goes along. Courage.
25:04
I always in my book and in general I say most of the
25:08
projects that I see, I will go to 90%, maybe 95% of the
25:12
projects that we see all over organisations in the UK and the
25:16
rest are incremental improvements.
25:20
That means that this project is going to increase the efficiency
25:24
by 10%. This project is going to reduce
25:28
cost by 20%. So we again, that operation and
25:32
mindset so embedded in projects, why do we do projects that are
25:35
just 10% improvements? Why don't we say no, we're not
25:39
going to do this project with temper, let's think
25:41
exponentially. Let's really transform more
25:44
business and project leaders have that power that nobody told
25:49
them. But you can say no to a bad
25:50
idea. You can say this is bad.
25:53
And where is the sustainability part on this project?
25:56
Have you thought about go back and redo it, right?
25:59
Why should I drive a project that doesn't bring value and
26:03
it's not sustainable? If that's one of your priorities
26:06
and it doesn't create whatever the priority is for you, why
26:09
would you just say, yes, I'll do it?
26:12
No, we need to learn to say no, we can do better.
26:15
So we have that, but we need to step, step up against our
26:21
history. We need to step up and saying,
26:23
listen, we can do more. We can do a train that never
26:27
stops. We can make a car that drives
26:30
alone. We can create a rocket that
26:33
doesn't disappear but comes back right and reduce it.
26:37
Why should BLM masks the only one thinks about that?
26:40
Why should not be thinking exponentially?
26:44
So that's I think something a capability that we need to
26:47
develop, that we need to talk to leaders as leaders and step up
26:52
and say this and maybe we can do it differently.
26:55
Second, maybe not to go too long, Emma, is the people side.
27:00
Another big gap in the way we run projects is that they're run
27:06
by groups of people. And the main reason why projects
27:11
succeed is because there's a team behind.
27:15
How many times you've seen I've been 25 year plus, where you
27:20
prioritising a project to create a team and say forget about the
27:24
project, forget about the scope, forget about WS backup.
27:28
Let's bring the first week to create a team.
27:31
All of you, we've never worked together, but this time we're
27:34
going to work together as a team.
27:36
All of you are important. You all play a role.
27:38
This is how I like to to work together.
27:41
I want to know each other. We need to know each other.
27:43
I don't care about your role. I want to know who you are Emma
27:47
and what you like and how's been your life and building that
27:51
trust from the beginning and creating that team is nowhere,
27:55
is nowhere. We rush.
27:57
We go into things that really don't matter.
27:59
They're just superficial. So that can you can have a huge
28:03
impact if you stop your project today immediately and spend the
28:07
next week building a team. Even if people are part time,
28:11
when they come to you, they feel they're in a team, a winning
28:14
team. People that care that, that
28:17
that's really, I just don't know why we've never focused on that,
28:21
right? It's just crazy.
28:23
But that will need to be a muscle that people need to work
28:27
because if you're saying in a project economy teams come
28:30
together for 90 days or whatever and it it's it's going to be
28:33
necessary that you'd be working with different people.
28:36
So to have that ability to get on a long well, understand each
28:43
other and to have that team, team cohesion is really
28:47
important. I like what you're yeah, and I
28:50
like what you're saying around. I think what you're saying is
28:53
that you need to think bigger. So project professionals need to
28:57
think bigger about well, a appreciate and shouts a bit more
29:01
about the work they do because I've never come across such a
29:06
humble group of people who are so reluctant to talk about the
29:09
successes that they bring. Also, it's because your book is
29:17
at is completely around project success.
29:20
And I mean, we could talk another hour about that, but one
29:24
of the things is around is the project worth doing in the 1st
29:29
place? Or if you're on the project
29:30
continuum, well, when it becomes apparent that maybe this is not
29:35
such a good idea, that it's right to stop that project, move
29:39
on to the next, and perhaps that is then tied into project
29:43
governance. If you're, if your whole
29:44
organisation is just a number of projects, you must have constant
29:48
vigilance about which, which are worth focusing on and which are
29:52
worth abandoning. And then there's no shame in
29:54
that. It's that's the right thing to
29:56
do. Yeah, that's one of the other
30:00
areas I I work on in the book is we should not see stopping
30:05
projects as a failure. On the contrary, it should be an
30:08
act of courage that is recognised and OK.
30:11
Hey boss, we launched this six months ago.
30:13
I think the market has shifted. We have other let's let's stop
30:17
it or even post it for the next 3-6 months.
30:20
Let's shift priority, let's shift the teams they were and
30:23
then it creates more capacity, it creates more focus.
30:26
But today projects, if you close them, finish them, stop them,
30:32
it's, it's still seen as a failure.
30:34
And that that's part of the culture that I say it has to
30:37
change. Project celebration.
30:39
I wrote an article in HBRA few months ago.
30:42
It's how to stop projects. And it, it, it seems simple, but
30:47
it's not. How many of you go by by
30:52
subscription to go to the gym, especially in January and and
30:57
you never stop that subscription even if you don't go right.
31:01
So it's the same for projects at work.
31:03
It's just very hard. But building that muscle again,
31:07
you know, stop it. Like I, I tried, we, we learned
31:11
a lot, but now it's time to shift to something else.
31:15
And one of the very big message MI want to give is AI will come
31:22
and we'll need to stop projects. But I think leaders should not
31:25
take the advantage of stopping projects to fire people that
31:29
that's like the worst strategy you can have.
31:32
One of the approaches that I say is when we stop people, we
31:36
guarantee in the next 30 day that everyone in that project
31:39
will be replaced somewhere else. So having that safety that the
31:44
projects will stop and, and, and, and many should stop, but
31:48
we, we keep our people, we, we, we have this safety needs for
31:53
that. And that would create such a
31:54
positive culture where we focus on what really matters.
31:59
That's a really good point. What my final question would be
32:03
how big is the gap between where we are, where organisations are
32:07
now and where you you see that they could be and and delivering
32:11
successful projects within their organisations?
32:16
I think it's very big, Emma, and and this is a transformation
32:21
that has to be LED from the top. And I hope that having HPR
32:28
really position the book for CEOs and executives will help
32:31
us. I think we have a role to play
32:33
when we professional as where we know how to do this type of
32:38
transformation speaking higher up, but I think we're we big
32:44
gap, we're slow, Emma. And what worries me the most is
32:48
that in Asia, for example, companies are adapting so
32:53
quickly and and they're just so fast and they they don't have
32:56
these problems that we make ourselves.
32:59
So that's my bigger concern is that companies are changing
33:03
very, very fast in Asia and and they're coming and they're
33:07
playing globally. So I'm I'm a bit concerned on
33:10
that part too. Thank you, Antonio.
33:14
Was was there any last points you wanted to raise before we
33:18
wrap up? No, I think just for all these
33:21
project managers, please be proud of what you're doing.
33:24
Really be proud and be the proudest because you're really
33:27
building the future and and recognise that with your friends
33:33
and with your family and it really, if we are not there, the
33:37
future will not be looking great.
33:40
So just be very, very proud of what we do.
33:44
That's that's great words for a January podcast as well when
33:48
everyone's thinking about what new Year might bring.
33:51
So that's the really positive celebratory night way to end the
33:55
podcast. So thank.
33:56
Thank you very much, Antonio. That was so interesting to hear
34:01
your thoughts. So thanks again.
34:03
Always a pleasure. Thank you, Ma.
34:07
Thanks again to Antonio for joining us and to you for
34:10
listening to the APM podcast. I hope that you've been left
34:13
with much food for thought, and remember to get hold of a copy
34:16
of Powered by Projects, leading your organisation in the
34:19
Transformation Age, published by Harvard Business Review Press in
34:22
January 2026. Don't forget to look out for
34:26
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34:28
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34:42
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