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26. The Hidden Role of Shame in Financial Planning: Practical Tools for Advisors to Create Client Breakthroughs with Nathan Astle · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Shame is functional, even though it's incredibly damaging.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It gives us an understanding.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, what our jobs is as financial advisors, or quite honestly, just as human beings, is to help people who struggle with shame.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, there are other ways to see the challenge that you're having.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: There are other ways to see yourself or your money struggles that aren't just your deficit in some way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, hi.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: I should probably introduce myself.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Today I am thrilled to have my buddy, the person who literally got me into working with financial advisors, Nathan Assel, certified financial therapist and founder of the Financial Therapy Clinical Institute.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to have him on today because what we're going to be talking about is a really powerful but unaddressed emotion that shows up within the work that you do.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that is shame.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to be talking about shame, what financial shame is, where does it come from?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: How does it show up?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: All the good stuff today with Nathan.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Nathan, Nate, my friend, buddy, welcome to the show.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that you're here today.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I am so excited.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's few people in the world that I'd rather talk to about shame than Ashley Kwame.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm here for it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to take that as a compliment.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way it was meant.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to take that.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: I like feel like I know what you meant there.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to take that as a compliment.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you and I have known each other for a few years, and I truly credit you with getting me into this work.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've been so impressed by everything that you've done the last few years within financial therapy, within starting even the financial therapy clinical institute.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And even though I kind of have a good idea of who you are and your story, would you mind taking just a few moments to share with everyone a little bit about your journey?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: How did you get here into working in the financial therapy space with financial shame and founding the financial therapy clinical institute?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: So my background is in marriage and family therapy.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I went to school for.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of fell into financial therapy on accident, like many of us do.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was at school.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was looking for a job, and the financial counseling center, the peer-to-peer financial counseling center at Kansas State University, had a job opening.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I applied.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: I always liked money stuff.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was interesting, but I don't think it really became personal until I was in my program and I was doing my own therapy, seeing my own therapist, deconstructing some of my own traumas and things that have affected me.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of during that time that I realized just how deep my own money story went.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just how deep money and my own psychology and the own way that I show up in the world was affecting me.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was obviously affecting my relationships and a whole lot of other things.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that's when I think financial therapy didn't just become this cool, sexy idea, but actually something very meaningful.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of dove headfirst after that.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've been uh lucky to serve on the board of the Financial Therapy Association and the Financial Therapy Clinical Institute, which is way too long of a name.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: We just shorten it to FTCI, or I like calling it FTSE, which is a weird, weird, weird name, but it works.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it does.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: It does.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: So FTSE really came out of a dream that I've had for a long time, which is what would it look like to have a truly collaborative, you know, in the mental health world, you might have something like a disordered eating clinic where you might have a therapist, but you'll also have a dietitian or a nurse practitioner.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And these different professionals work in tandem.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're doing at FTCI, where we have a financial therapist doing the psychological, emotional, relational aspects of money, financial counselors who do a lot more of the day-to-day structure around, you know, how do I budget or how do I get kind of my debt payment plan together?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: What does it actually look like to manage money day to day?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then we do have, of course, financial planners who do more long-term planning options.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: So all of us work together.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, my hope and my experience and also the research that we've uh seen has shown that that actually has better outcomes because people are getting this holistic experience.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, FTCI also does have a research arm and also has a training component where we provide on-demand trainings for financial counselors, financial advisors on different financial therapy topics.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of hats, we'll do a lot of things, but it's it's fun.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good time.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's remarkable everything that you've done and that treatment team approach, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we refer to it in mental health.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Having worked on many treatment teams, I can tell you that I think the collaborative model is really truly the best and provides the best outcomes for the client overall.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I love everything that you're doing.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: We'll make sure that we link footsie.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll make sure we write it out, but I will forever now think of it as footsie.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, wait.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just have to, okay, I have to just say this because it's a thought running through my head, and I feel like I can be vulnerable with you here.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: When you say footsie, does this like footloose song start coming to mind?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, can that be I don't know, like you guys' theme song?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've been looking for a theme song, and so that might just be a the the image that comes to my mind, which is not something I actually want associated with my business, but it's too late now, it's gonna be out there.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you've seen Napoleon Dynamite, yeah, the brother and his girlfriend LaFonda are playing Footsie at the picnic, and it is a terrible thing, but it's the only thing that I can think of when I say footsie if I'm not actually talking about my business.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm oh gosh, you are gonna make me come so close to having to hit pause because I want to laugh so hard that I might snort.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Fun fact when I laugh really hard, I do have a tendency to snort.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love that movie.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know very well the scene that you're talking about.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, if you're looking for an alternative, I don't know, footloose comes to mind for me, but I do think that Kip and LaFonda are really, really a solid image there for you guys.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: I support that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get let's get back into what we're here to talk about today, which is financial shame.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'd love if we can maybe just start a little bit high level here from your perspective, what is financial shame?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe also how does it differ from maybe other emotions like feeling guilty or feeling embarrassed in financial contexts?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really good question.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the way I explain it to my clients is guilt is the feeling you have when you act outside of your values.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime your behavior and your values or how you want to show up in the world don't align, there is gonna be probably some feelings of guilt.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And guilt, although it's not comfortable, it can be useful.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I almost think of guilt like the rumble strips on the side of a highway that they're not fun to go over necessarily, but they do help you adjust back into the lane you're supposed to be in.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Guilt can be useful in that it helps move us more towards alignment, more towards behavior and values working together.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So guilt, like I said, is not useful or it's not comfortable, but it can be useful.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Shame, however, is about not about the behavior, but it's about how you view yourself.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that I did a bad thing, it's that I am a bad thing.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And shame is the opposite of guilt in some ways, in that it actually is demotivating.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: If I believe that the problem isn't a behavior that I can correct, but if I believe that the actual problem is a character flaw inside of me that is permanent, it just sucks up any motivation we might have had to do something different.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: I can't shame myself into a different financial behavior.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so when people come to our offices and are experiencing a lot of shame, I pretty explicitly tell them we have to do this in a shame-free environment.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: You and I can't do the work that we need to do if the shame is how you are viewing your financial situation.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: All of us have, I think, reasons for financial guilt.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, none of us are perfect with our money.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: None of us perfectly do everything exactly how we want.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: But when we start viewing our own money as a reflection of our character flaws, I think we're really gonna struggle and quite honestly stay stuck in our financial challenges.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a really big deal, is that we approach money in a shame-free way.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you said there, just the the simplicity really from a distinction place that guilt is feeling bad about something I've done, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, it can be motivating, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I feel guilty that I went on Amazon and purchased like all of those things.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oops, okay, right.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe that motivates me next time to make more mindful choices versus shame.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I did a bad thing, it's that I am bad, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Inherently bad around money.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's such an important distinction to be able, you know, to make and to know.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, looking at shame, from your experience, the work that you do, where does financial shame come from?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is this something that is learned within us?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I see you smiling.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm smiling too, but where do you see the origins really of financial shame coming out of and coming from?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's important to understand that shame is a learned response.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't something we're born with.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that just comes from.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: It is something that we learn as a way to interact with the world.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually kind of deep, and it's really important that I think advisors understand the depth of the work that they are asking their clients to do.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really important to ask yourself like, where did I learn to see myself this way?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Who shamed me first?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Who made me feel like my value was dependent on a certain behavior, or that my money was a determinant of my worth.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: That is something we don't come out of the womb like knowing that about ourselves.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that we learn.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's learned directly from parents or guardians or other important adults in our lives.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's certainly something we learn from culture.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Money is a pretty big influencer in how we experience the world and what it means about us to have money or not have money, to be able to do certain things with our money or not.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think if you're trying to recognize shame, uh look for my two biggest phrases that clue me in that someone might be experiencing shame is when they're using words like I am, I am bad, I'm bad with money, I'm bad with investing, I'm bad with saving, whatever it is.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Those are characteristic words.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the other phrase that I hear a lot that also just like, oop, there's shame there.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I should.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Should leads to shame always.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: If I am stuck in the I shouldn't have these problems, I should be able just to spend my money wisely.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I am, I'm not talking about my behavior anymore.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about these deficits in who I am.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, it's it's trying to cross a bridge with a broken, broken wood.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're just not going to be able to do it.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be able to say, okay, are there things that I want to do different?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that just makes me a human being like everyone else.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: What we can't do is say, and that's because I'm a broken human being.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I tell clients all the time that shooting on themselves is we we don't, no one ever feels better, right, when they should on themselves.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know, at least I don't, right?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so far, like I've not had any clients say, wow, that makes me feel really great when I say that I should do something.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I should be better with this, or I should know how to do that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't ever make us feel better.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the two phrases in terms of things to look out for, right?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Things to be listening for, right?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: The I am, which is a model of self, how they view themselves and the shoulding there.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that shoulding does lead to lead to shame.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to ask from just to clarify here, it seems like, from my understanding, shame is really a pattern or a series of maybe events.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like it gets developed, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: As like a pattern there, maybe multiple events that have occurred over time versus maybe guilt that's like, I don't know, a one-off, or I shouldn't say maybe just one-off, but you know, it may not be a regular occurrence.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk a little bit about maybe just pattern development there with shame kind of versus guilt?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: What's your experience?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do you talk about it and think about it?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, shame a lot often comes with beliefs, and there's beliefs about ourselves.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I am, I am good, I am bad, I am safe.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can trust others, I can't trust others.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: When we are looking at our identities, a lot of times what happens is we are either we do a bad thing and we feel guilt, but then externally someone tells us or makes us feel like it's because you're stupid or it's because you're you don't work hard enough, you're not disciplined enough.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: That that was a strong one that we get around money, is that money is just a result of our self-discipline, which is baloney.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's a million reasons why people succeed or struggle with money, and to boil it all down to self-discipline is not helpful.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens is we look, our brains are always looking for patterns.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if we are seeing a struggle, maybe within ourselves or in our situation, shame provides us an easy out.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that that might sound weird because it's not a pleasant thing, but shame makes us understand the world.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I can blame the challenges I'm having, or I can blame other people's behavior towards me as a function of my deficit, it's a it's because I'm stupid or bad or whatever, then it at least makes sense.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because how else do I understand why I am being told that I'm so bad?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Shame is functional, even though it's incredibly damaging.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: It gives us an understanding.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, what our jobs is as financial advisors or quite honestly, just as human beings, is to help people who struggle with shame.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, there are other ways to see the challenge that you're having.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: There are other ways to see yourself or your money struggles that aren't just your deficit in some way.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love that there.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me how, yeah, because I'm wondering, I'm sitting here thinking listeners are probably like, okay, this makes sense.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And oof, like this is deep stuff, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: As you said, kind of at the beginning.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like we went from talking about Napoleon dynamite to, you know, shame, like that transition happened real quick.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me how, from your perspective, how does shame manifest from a financial decision making or planning behavior?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know you talked about maybe some of those verbal cues or indicators, right, that it might be there.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what are some other ways that shame might show up in a client's financial decision making?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you got to remember that they are coming from a place of a lack of confidence, mostly in a lack of confidence in themselves.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so some specific behavior might be they are slow to make a change.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: They might be really stuck.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things is shame is sticky and it keeps us stuck.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, it keeps us from being motivated to do something different.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: If people are really, really stuck in a financial plan, they know what they need to do.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about it.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a lack of knowledge here.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: They just aren't feeling like they can, or there's some kind of stuckness.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, let's start probing for shame.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would bet more cases than not, shame is at least part of the challenge that they're having.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Other kinds of things is when they are getting resistant, specifically resistant to things that you're suggesting.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't want anyone to pathologize, like, oh, they aren't liking what I'm saying, therefore they're just going through shame, Sparles.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: We need to be open to what our clients are saying.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that a very common reaction to shame is defensiveness.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's shame is vulnerable.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hard thing to own up to that this is how I'm feeling about myself or this is what I'm struggling with.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if I can't get there mentally, it might be easier for me to push back against something that might be more helpful, something my advisor is telling me would be useful.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be like, well, well, no.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and this is why.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, like I said, pay attention if they're if they're bringing up like solid reasons why it's not working, great.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's good information for you.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: But it's possible that defensiveness is being used as a shield against the very vulnerable feeling of shame.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm have seen it show up similar to what you said with avoidance too, right?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Which is you know, kind of that like maybe resistance or like not following through, but kind of goes in one ear and it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'll push this down right the road, you know, there.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly that's not all the always the case, but I love what you said.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Let's maybe probe a little and see if that's contributing to this behavior that we're seeing of not following through or resisting or giving maybe excuses, right, as to why we can't work there.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious how then I have some ideas here, but how have you seen maybe not just financial advisors, but you know, even other practitioners?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: But how have you seen like well-intentioned practitioners that, you know, are working with clients?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: How have you seen them say things, um, or what maybe kinds of things might they say that could inadvertently either trigger some of that shame or or deepen it or just create a greater sense of stuckness?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of those like I'm trying, look, pause.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying not to create a sense of shame right now in our listeners um by saying, hey, like don't if you say these things, don't do that.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: So uh can you tell I'm trying to like ask this question in like a really like non-shamy type of type of way right now?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um but well intentioned, well-intentioned advisors.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what are some things maybe that where are some missteps, things that they say that might maybe do more damage?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, here's the thing though, is this is another hard pill to swallow.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: All of us have shamed other people at some point in our lives.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a poison.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of all breathe it in and then we all cough it up on others around us, and it's not it's not intentional.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because we're all mean spirited people.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just because that's the culture, that's what we're growing up in.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think, especially for advisors, their use of words like should, this should this should be doable, right?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: While that might be mathematically correct, there's a lot of reasons why it might not be doable for your client.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's a million things that we can't predict.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And quite honestly, with uh with financial advisors, we have to recognize, you know, you you meet with your clients however many times.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time it's what an hour or two a quarter.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you are a really high touch point advisor, even if you're meeting two times a month, that is two hours out of the hundreds of hours that they live.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much about our clients that you will never fully know what their lived experience is like.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we set expectations up for our clients that are based on our own desires or based on our own values, or based on the resources we have, and we just expect other people are able to do it because I'm doing it, don't think that's fair.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely be careful for the shoulds.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think a really good antidote to that is just asking more questions.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do you like, how do you feel about this?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is a plan that you know we came up with that I think could make sense.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: How confident are you in this plan?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: How confident are you in you to make this plan happen?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: What support do you need from me?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that life happens and you know there's gonna be things about this we need to adjust, and that's totally okay.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: See how I'm just making it warm and it's like, oh yeah, cool.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm no longer if this plan fails, with quotes around fails.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: If this plan fails, it's not because of me.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's because there's something in there that needs an adjustment that just takes so much pressure off of it.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: So really be careful of how you use shoulds and just dump the warmth on the like people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cute little adage, but I have yet to find an exception to that rule.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hearing you say, right, that we should avoid shooting on clients, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the ways to do that is creating like a warm environment and ensuring that we're validating not only our clients' experience, but also the recommendations in that it might be difficult or we might need to pivot and that's okay in whatever direction we go, right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Really being able to validate that from a communication framework.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned like probing earlier, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: If maybe some of those two kind of phrase indicators start cropping up, right?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or if maybe your spidey senses, maybe you're a really like intuitive advisor and you're like, I think based on what I know, like I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's going on here.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: How or what questions might an advisor ask if they wanted to probe or dip their heads below the waters to see if shame really is playing a role in the financial decision making?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I this is a good question to ask because I think a common fear I hear from advisors is, well, I don't want to be a therapist.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And many advisors still feel like a therapist, but you don't need to be a therapist to ask good questions.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not going to be diagnosing anyone with OCD, and you're not going to be like, tell me about your mother.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're not going to be playing that role, but you can still be like, what's it, what's it like talking to me right now?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: How are you feeling it?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is, you know, we're we're talking about goals, um, and those goals have numbers attached to them.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, I want you to feel like this is your life and that you are feeling connected to these goals.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Are you feeling that?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you notice any barriers?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: All of these are example questions that are totally appropriate to ask.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can be a kind, compassionate human being, asking people about their emotional experience talk while they're talking over a financial plan.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not only are you making it incredibly safe and warm, but you are taking some of the shame out of what they're experiencing.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Quite honestly, you may be helping them with some very traumatic things, even if you never use the word trauma.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: We heal in relationships, we heal in communities.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And when they have someone that they trust that they know cares about them, wants good things for their lives, is gentle with them.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: You have incredible power in their lives to help them heal.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And most of us have some form of financial healing we need to do.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I would echo that some of the most powerful healing examples I know that I've seen or have heard of have been kind of reflective after the fact, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Of I didn't realize I struggled with this until we started working together.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to think that I was just really, you know, I'm just bad with money.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And now after working together for this long, like that model of self or that, you know, thought that I've like I no longer have that thought anymore.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that feels really good.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like that can be, as you said, like incredibly healing.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we don't realize it.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe our clients don't until after the fact.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it's such a gift that as an advisor, as a practitioner, that you can give to your client in creating a warm and safe environment that can help reduce shame or any of the other larger, more emotional struggles that they might have around money.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, all right, Nate, we've talked a lot about shame, what it is, differentiating it between guilt, how to probe, what to look for, questions to ask, how to create uh kind of a warm, safe environment?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I am really curious, your thoughts, experience, maybe even research knowledge.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find that there is a gender difference when it comes to those that experience financial shame?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are women more likely to experience financial shame?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Are men, do you see any, I don't know, distinctions there from a gender standpoint?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's probably fair to say that gender plays a role in how we experience shame.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: But financial shame exists with every human, no matter what gender.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are certain gendered expectations though about money.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: If I grew up and I did, I grew up in a household where men are the breadwinner and they're just better at that kind of stuff.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of kind of BS narratives about gender differences and all that.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what I see a lot, a lot, a lot, is when men are struggling with money, they are pretty quick to be seeing that as a reflection of themselves because of those, those gendered expectations.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, I see a lot of shame in men around money.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think specifically about earning, about under-earning, for some reason that's a role we've decided men should be able to do.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, even that if that isn't true for a specific couple, and even if a couple is really good about being progressive in their ideologies, or they're really how their relationship is is different than the norm, it's still something that seeps in.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's one way that it shows up for men that's a little bit different, is especially around earning.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: I see that a lot.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think for women, something that I also see is around spending.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of really gross stereotypes about just like, oh, women just love to go shopping and there's this irresponsibility to it.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's again, baloney.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's something that women, obviously, I I don't can't speak for the the woman experience, but like I do think that that's an internalized expectation is that I'm supposed to know how to do this.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, supposed to is awfully coast to should.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: There is no should.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, none of us know what we're doing.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: None of us know how to deal with the very specific money challenge we're having now.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we are all going through life as best we can with the tools we have.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: We for both men and women, like we need to find a lot more grace for just the struggle that is existence.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's heavy, but again, I think it shows up in our money.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: It all it always will, because money is inherently an emotional experience.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important we talk about the emotions around our gender expectations.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know that for myself.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I opened my private practice in 2014, a few months after Abby, my youngest, was born.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't recommend that, just in hindsight.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I do remember it was probably maybe three years into running my practice.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was a one-woman, I was a one-woman show for a very, very long time.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I do remember, you know, part I was a therapist.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing therapy.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I knew how to do that, you know, that part was easy.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then there was the business management money right side of things.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I regard myself as a competent individual.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I excelled in math growing up, but I did not know how to run like a business budget.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: I did not know like profit and loss, gross income, net income, right?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: All of those things.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And Clayton, who I know that you know is a financial planner and also business owner, you know, we would have conversations, like financial ones, like business owner to business owner.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I would react very defensively because I felt so much shame in not knowing how to run my business from a numbers financial standpoint.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was also like the added layer of being a woman.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I look, I do want to spend and I do like enjoy that.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: But responsible business owners don't, you know, splurge and like and and do all those things.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: I share that story because I think that there can also be or where shame might show up is also with being an entrepreneur, being a business owner.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious, have you had any experience with that, with business owners, entrepreneurs experiencing shame?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what has that looked like?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, yeah.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh certainly with my clients, um, but honestly with myself.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's very few jobs that that feel like such a direct reflection of who you are as entrepreneurs.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like every everything's on you.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing everything.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you are an entrepreneur and you have a certain amount of people that work under you or work with you, at the end of the day, this is this is your baby.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when your baby is sick, and I I know that this is maybe not the best analogy to compare it to motherhood, but like it when you feel that level of responsibility for something that you really care about, that you want to do well, man, it really bites hard when when our businesses don't meet our own expectations.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that I quite frankly, I've had to do a lot of work on with my own therapist on not over-identifying with your business.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like your business is important, you have to take care of it and all that kind of stuff, but it isn't you and businesses succeeding or failing is not a reflection of you, the individual, succeeding or failing.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to separate our identity from a business.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm saying things that are easier said than done because, like I said, this is it's hard.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: We all have our own work to do with it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the more, the more that we talk about it like this, actually, though, I think it kind of destigmatizes the fact that entrepreneurs can have exorbitant amounts of shame, exorbitant amounts of pressure.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that can show up in their own mental health, that can show up in their relationships.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta normalize the fact that this is a very uncomfortable thing that a lot of people experience.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what would you say then for advisors who might be listening and they are jiving kind of with what you're saying here?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe like their wheels, their wheels are turning a little bit around understanding the role of shame and how it might show up with clients.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say then to them as far as maybe next steps that they could take to learning about it more, creating greater awareness maybe within themselves or within their work?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: What advice or what are a few things that you might tell them?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I I think you actually hit the nail on the head with do your own work.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: As an advisor, you are gonna be helping people with life experience that is totally different than your own.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the better you are at getting in touch with your own feelings, recognizing potentially some of your own shame or your own financial shame.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, advisors have it too.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're able to connect with people on a deeper level.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're able to empathize better.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I also think the more that you do your work on reducing your own shame or processing that, it removes a lot of barriers that might be built into that advisor client experience.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I go into my advisor expecting a hoity-toity, uptight experience where it's very business and it's very, you know, uh, like if I'm expecting that and instead I'm met with warmth and compassion and vulnerability, like that is a very different thing.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think the more at work that advisors do for that, the better.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: As far as kind of practical, what does it start with?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you and I are biased here, but we're pro-therapy.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Go do your own therapy.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some pro therapy.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's helpful.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think kind of some more specific things.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I so I do have uh some courses from the Financial Therapy Clinical Institute on working with different challenges, financial trauma, working with couples, and shame is brought up there.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we also have a resource library of different worksheets that we do with people.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: One that I really like is a worksheet that I really like that people can just go and download, and it's it's free.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the money timeline.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's what it sounds like.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a timeline of your life, but specifically around money memories.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're looking for are memories around money that have emotional weight.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think about this thing and I still feel happy, sad, scared, whatever.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: What I think this does doing some of your own financial history taking, what it does is that helps you learn what are some of the beliefs that I have absorbed over my lifetime around money.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: And are any of those beliefs shame-based?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Doing that work can actually make a huge difference.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I would definitely encourage, we we do have a course, the Financial Therapy Clinical Institute, called Soft Skills for Financial Planners and Financial Professionals.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of very basic counseling skills.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do you validate?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: What does validation sound like?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: What does empathy sound like?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: What are, what does it mean to ask good questions?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like that kind of stuff can be a useful starting point.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think my kind of final thought there is just you don't have to be this naturally bubbly people person to be able to empathize and validate and be compassionate.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be a therapist to be with someone in struggle.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can almost think of it like CPR.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to be a doctor to know CPR, but knowing CPR might be a very useful thing for someone someday if I have some of those skills.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we need to view counseling, education, understanding things like financial shame or financial trauma or couples dynamics.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: That is part of you being a really not just a good financial advisor or advice giver, but a truly great financial professional.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the end of my soapbox.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, stay up there for a little bit.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not mad.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not mad about it at all.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh we will make sure that we include the link to FTSE.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to sing the Footloose song.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to say Footsie while singing the Footloose song.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm gonna spare everyone.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna spare everyone from that, but we'll make sure that we include that there.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And for those of you are that are listening, Nate really does have some fantastic trainings that are grounded in research, down to earth, and are really just you know practical, like tangible.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can take them and implement them immediately, which for those of you that have listened to more than just this episode today, you know that that is what I'm really all about, is being able to give you things that you can go and implement in your next client meeting.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that, Nate, buddy old pal, please tell our listeners where can they find you?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you like to hang out?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: How can they get in touch with you if they want to learn more?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you just look up Nathan Astel, again, the Financial Therapy Clinical Institute.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, we just started we're on we're just we're just babies with this.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: We we actually started our own podcast called Money Minus Shame.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you got the right, got the right person to talk about shame.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: But our our podcast is much more uh geared to lay public.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you do have clients that struggle with shame, struggle with financial trauma, or another really fun topic that's important to talk about is financial infidelity.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Any of those kind of big topics, we have pretty good education, uh no, great educational uh stuff out there.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, don't be shy, reach out.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm an open book.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was gonna say, don't you dare say that, you know, it's okay.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: It is fantastic, fantastic stuff there.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we will make sure that we include your links there in the show notes where people can go and stalk you and find you.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you to Nate.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you to you coming on and sharing all of your wisdom with us.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you, listeners, for joining us and allowing Nate and I into your ears and into your mind today.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: So glad that you took the time to learn about shame and maybe hopefully you took away a nugget or two that you can go out and implement into your next client meeting.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 41:45
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• 41:51
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• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
• 42:04
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• 42:11
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• 42:15
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• 42:17
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• 42:22
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