Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 6 Track 4 - What's Poppin? The Super Bowl & Swifties

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Album 6 Track 4 - What's Poppin? The Super Bowl & Swifties · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: What's happening, Brand Nerds? Back at you with another podcast of Brands, Beats, and Bytes, and this is a What's Poppin edition. And Brand Nerds, let me tell you, on this one, we've got something really interesting popping. What's poppin LT? LT: So we do DC. This is, uh, we thought ideal for the Brand Nerds and us. We think this is a really interesting topic for us to hit. And that is the confluence of Taylor Swift and Super Bowl week. DC: What'd you say? What did you say? LT: That's right, right? Like, you know, obviously Taylor Swift and Travis Kelse dating takes this thing to a whole other level. And with the Kansas City Chiefs playing my San Francisco 49ers in the Super Bowl, we thought Brand Nerds, this is a, uh, just a really chewy subject for us to get into. So do you want to get into it? DC: Uh, LT, given that I just heard someone today say, I'm not watching the Super Bowl because I'm tired of Taylor Swift. I absolutely want to get into this. I absolutely want to get into this. Literally today. LT: Dare I say that person. Is not a big NFL fan, right? I mean, I can't imagine that somebody, even if you're that, uh, turned off by Taylor Swift, if you were, uh, a huge Kansas City Chiefs fan or a Niner fan, you're not going to watch because of that. DC: Kind of hard to believe, but we humans are interesting creatures. LT: Good point. Good point. So where you want to go first? D DC: uh, okay. All right. So LT. When you raise this, by the way, Brand Nerds this is LT's idea. It's a great idea. I thought, uh, probably be kind of surface level, just kind of discussing Taylor Swift and the LT: By the way, I think it was Jade's idea book. Go. DC: Oh no, I'm, oh, my bad, my bad. Okay. It was Jade. You know what our super producer, Jade, sorry, Larry, yeah, sorry. Jade. Super producer. Jade's idea. So when she first said it, I thought, uh, LT, I thought, ah, could be interesting, fun, more like, um, I dunno. Cotton candy, , you eat a little bit of it, it dissolves, it's sweet, it's nice for the moment, then it goes away. But then Jade and LT, I started getting into this and really thinking about this from our perspective, brands and marketing. And that's where it got heavy for me. So let me just, let me kick this thing off. LT: Please do. DC: Brand Nerds, you all have heard me, I think on several occasions, if you've listened to our podcast, talk about how the profession of marketing and the profession of psychology are cousins. It's. Closely related LT: First cousins. DC: First cousins, first cousins, because they deal Larry with human behavior. So I, I, I want to, um, go into a, an article here. This is from deadline and the, and the author is Lynette Rice. This article was published on the 30th of January. So on that quite two weeks ago, right after the AFC Championship Game between the Kansas City Chiefs and the Baltimore Ravens. Now it was on CBS. The telecast was three hours and nine seconds long. Taylor Swift was seen at the game. As you said, Larry, supporting her boyfriend, Travis Kelce, who is a, at some point will be a hall of fame tied in for the Kansas City Chiefs. LT: First ballot. DC: First ballot, so the telecast was three hours and nine seconds. lt, would you like to guess how much screen time Taylor Swift had? And let me just say this Brand Nerds say this Brand Nerds, there has been utter outrage at her presence at this game. Utter outrage. Okay, take a guess. Three hours and nine seconds. Total telecast time. How long dedicated to Taylor Swift? LT: I would say a minute, tops. DC: LT, you are nearly right. So, there's a marketing analyst by the name of Jason Pauly. He did the analytics of this. 44 seconds. That's like a minute tops. You're 16 seconds off from a minute, and you said a minute tops. Alright, so, Brand Nerds, for those of you all who are doing math, that's 39 percent of the entire telecast Of the AFC championship, not, not 1. 39%, 0. 39%. LT: You could have blinked and missed her. DC: You could have blinked and missed her. Yet there's all this outrage. Yeah. Which then begs the question, uh, uh, LT, why? Why all the outrage? So now I go to the psychology point. World renowned professor at Harvard. Larry, you know this because we use him in our work. His name is Gerald Zaltman, Gerald Zaltman, Harvard professor. So this is in the hidden minds article of the Harvard business review, first published June of 2002. I quote from this, he says, what we really think is largely hidden from us. In other words, most of us. We know, we don't know, we know. And I was like, what does that mean? We don't know. We know it's about the subconscious mind. He says, probably 95 percent of all cognition, all the thinking that drives our decisions, behaviors occurs unconsciously, and that includes consumer decisions. What he's talking about here, LT, and brand nerds is emotions. Emotions subconsciously drive us, and then we rationalize with logic. I'm gonna go to another person, LT. Just stick with me here, Brand Nerd. Stick with me here. Okay, so this is from Uh, an article on CNBC by a dude named Tom Huddleston, and he's quoting Charlie Munger. Charlie Munger, who died in October, formerly vice chairman of Berkshire Hathaway. So this is This is Warren Buffett's company. So Warren Buffett's the chairman. Charlie Munger's the vice chairman. Friends for decades. LT: D, I just want to point out, Charlie Munger, from everything you read, was like, Warren Buffett saw him as somebody completely indispensable to everything. Stage. DC: Yeah, he's stage. Yes, that's just Charlie. Okay, so that so this is where I started to think, why are people so upset about Taylor Swift in this game when it's 44 seconds, 0. 39 percent of the time. Here's what Charlie Munker says. This has nothing to do with football. This is one of his principles. He says the world is not driven by greed. It's driven by envy. And then he says, I have conquered envy in my own life. I don't envy anybody, Munger said. I don't give a damn what someone else has, but other people are driven crazy by it. And I'm like, hmm, Charlie Munger, envy. We might be getting somewhere, Brand Nerds. We might be getting somewhere. I continue. Here's another article from Medium. The person that wrote this article is Denis if I'm, if I'm mispronouncing your name, I'm sorry. This is from August 10th of 2023. And it's about envy and he goes into this a little further. So he quotes Charlie Munger. Charlie Munger says, I think envy is one of the major problems of the human condition. And that's why it, it figured so prominently in the laws of Moses. Remember. He said you couldn't even covet your neighbor's donkey. Okay, this is Charlie Munger. This is Charlie Munger. Now he goes on this, this is, uh, this, this is Denis. He goes on to do another quote, a parable, an old Russian story. Russian story. He says, there is an old Russian story where a farmer finds a magic lamp. He rubs it, and a genie appears. Who promised him, promises to grant him one wish, one wish LT, one wish. He says, the farmer thinks for a moment, Mmm, and says, My neighbor has a cow. I don't have a cow. I wish my neighbor's cow dead. Okay. So, so this is what he, this is what he says. This is envy. So then I thought, okay, so what, what is envy? So Charlie Munger has now brought forward this thought of envy. Not, not thinking about Taylor Swift and, and Travis Kelce in the reaction. But just envy. Okay. And then I said, so what, what is envy really? Cause you know we like to get into stuff here on Brand Beats and Bytes. Here's Envy. Now this is from Psychology Today. So this article was written by, um, uh, uh, Ekua Hagen, August 21st of 2014, LT. So it says this. To feel envy, three conditions need to be met. First, we must be confronted with a person or persons with something, a possession, quality, or achievement that has eluded us. Second, we must desire that that's something for ourselves. And third LT, we must be personally pained by the associated emotion or emotions. So then I'm thinking, okay, what could people be envious of, of Taylor Swift? What could pain them? What could they think? What do you have that I don't have? I go now to Monica Mercury, December 13th of 2023, nine times Taylor Swift crushed 2023. I'm just going to read you the top three, not all nine. Yep. One, she became a billionaire to her Eras Tour grossed over 1 billion. And three, she was named time magazine's 2023 person of the year. LT: And that's just three of the nine. DC: That's just three of the nine. Okay. So my Brand Nerds and Larry what's popping for me is a question. Why is it that millions of people can lose their minds? Over 44 seconds of Taylor Swift time when Travis Kelce, his brother, Jason Kelce, was on a telecast from the same box that Taylor Swift was in one week prior when the Kansas City Chiefs were playing the Buffalo Bills. This dude was standing screaming outside of a box with a Miller Lite in his hand, a Miller Lite in his hand. All right, shirtless in minus 27 degree weather, and he was on screen longer than Taylor Swift. Why? LT: Okay, D, this is, this is so great. Brand Nerds, all we had was the topic. So we just decided we're going to take this in our own ways. And so we have not planned this at all. Other than that, I have an answer for you, please. So Brantford Marcellus, famous jazz musician, wonderful musician. Um, has done so much in entertainment, uh, including being the band leader on Jay Leno's show back in the day. So I saw Branford Marsalis in an interview and, um, it was with Bob Costas and somehow fame came up, right? And Brantford Marsalis said that he took a class in college, and by the way, Brand Nerds, he went to Southern University, the great HBCU, so I assume that was at Southern. So Brantford Marsalis said that he took a class in college, and it was an American history class, and one of the things that came up was that the origins of people leaving the old world. And again, God bless the Native Americans because they're really the people, we won't get into that politics, people who supposedly discovered this land. DC: But respect, this is America's, their land. It was taken from them, but go ahead. LT: Taken from them entirely. So we won't get into that. So the people who came from the old world, i.e. Europe, who came here, the early influx and even the middle influx, a lot of those folks came from places like the UK, you know, Great Britain, France, and Spain and other places that were all monarchies. And guess what? If you were born, like most people, not in the monarchy, you could never be the king. There's nothing you could do in those old worlds. And that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Brantford Marsalis professor said that that was the psychology for many people leaving to say, I don't, I can never, I can only get so far in the caste system that is the monarchy. So I'm going to this new world where there's no king, right? And so in this new world, as this, as what was not a country, but then grew up into a country, we are a country of folks. Um, who supposedly anybody can aspire to what they want. Now, again, D, we know Black folks were taken here in an awful way and enslaved. So, but here's the, here's the point that, um, so that's the genesis, but the major point is this, that we as Americans see people who come from humble beginnings. And we see our, all of ourselves in that person and then that person rises up and we love that person on the way up. And by the way, this could be musicians from Frank Sinatra to Elvis Presley to athletes like Michael Jordan to, you know, to famous movie stars, whomever you want to, you want to talk about. And as that person goes up the mountaintop and becomes the king. Um, when that person reaches a certain level, we then the envy kicks in and we say, Ooh, we don't like, this isn't a land of, of Kings and Queens. This isn't a monarchy. And all of a sudden, they're at the top of the mountain, and we start to throw stones at that person again, and we want to knock that person off the mountaintop because they know, you know, you, we know all the frames. Oh, you know, Madonna, she grew up in Michigan. She's not, you know, she's this star when I knew her when she didn't do all the things that the affected British voice. And again, I'm just We're talking about things, right? We, so we then, as a society, this is sociological. Take that person down. We want to take that person down. Taylor Swift is at the top of the mountain. There's going to be so many people because they are envious to take her down because we do not want her to be the queen king of this country, because that doesn't exist according to the psychology of the culture that we have built here. And by the way, people have second acts because, again, Frank Sinatra, great example, he became the king. And when he got too high on his horse, According to this culture, he was brought down, and then once he was brought down, where he understood that, hey man, you're like us again, now we can bring him back up again, and he can become the king. And it's a cyclical thing. That is the answer that I think. To your to your question of Taylor Swift. If that makes sense to you. DC: I'm buying that answer. I'm buying that as I had no idea you were going to go there. No idea. LT: I didn't know where you were going. But this is that I saw this interview many years ago and it's always stuck with me as relates to celebrity in this country. I think it's dead right? I really do. DC: So lT, uh, two points here. One is, uh, another, uh, part of the world where this is, um, it's prevalent. It's in Australia, in New Zealand, there's something called the tall poppy syndrome. I know, you know, this for the brand nerds that do not. I'm going to read here from Wikipedia. Tell me. Oh, you know, I thought you, okay. Okay. So, okay. So it's tall poppy P O P P Y like a flower syndrome refers to successful people being criticized. This occurs when their peers believe they are too successful or are bragging about their success. Now, Taylor Swift is not bragging about her success in these NFL games. Intense scrutiny and criticism of such person is termed as "cutting down the tall poppy", cutting down, snipping poppies. That's my first connection. Here's my second connection. LT. I want to posit this question to you. What do you think are the implications for brands who are seeking to do partnerships with celebrities, given that there is this syndrome? Tall poppy syndrome. And what you described is climbing the mountain. Then we're with you reaching the scene. And now we need to bring you back down. What, what, what should marketers be thinking about as they began their selection process? LT: Ooh, that's a great question. Two things pop in my mind. D one is it really depends on what kind of brand you are. Are you a brand that's going after the brand lover? So in this case, let's use Taylor Swift, right? That's what we're talking about. If you're going after the Swifties. Very bluntly, you don't care because you, they're gonna, the Swifties are ride or die. They're going to be with her, right? As she goes on that mountaintop, they're going to stay with her. But if you're trying to ride the wave of her immense popularity, talking to overall culture, you got to be really leery about it. So it really depends on your objectives as a brand, really, who is the consumer that's most important to you as you ride the Taylor swift wave. DC: Mm. I like that, Larry. I'm gonna give an example of that close to home and a full disclosure, Aflac is is a client of brand positioning doctors. Uh, and, uh, and has been for some number of years now, LT, uh, three or so years ago, it was Shannon Watkins, who was then the CMO at, uh, at Aflac who led bringing on, um, Coach Prime. This was a different Coach Prime. Now Coach Prime was at Jackson State University. Yep. Another HBCU. So Shannon and I are in a conversation. She's describing what she wants. She'd already identified Coach Saban, the GOAT, and she and I together then said, okay, let's pair Nick Saban with, uh, with Coach Prime. And LT: Which was brilliant by the way. DC: It was great. Yeah, it was brilliant. It was great. Thank you very much. Brilliant. I'm a thank you also on behalf of Shannon. Um, uh, yep. So she knew that right away and put these two coaches together. It was all love. Shannon now departs to be CMO of the Jordan Brand and Garth comes in. Who's got a podcast for what's popping. Yep. Garth, the current CMO. CMO of, uh, of Aflac and during this time, Coach Prime moves from Jackson State University to Colorado. So he's moving up the amount of vitriol that came Coach Primes way as he's tracking up. Then he beats TCU, the team beats TCU and I'm, I'm telling you, Larry, you notice Larry, Brand Nerds, they were coming out of the work. Garth could have said. Well, now we're getting a lot of resistance and blow back from some people. Maybe we should distance ourselves from Coach Prime. Maybe not real. That's not what Garth did. He doubled down. He doubled down. So the point here is that if there is a personality whose values align with the values of your brand, uh, it doesn't matter whether you're going to have haters or not. In fact, if you don't have any haters. It's probably, you probably don't have anybody that's not that compelling and then I just want to say this because I don't think LT: That's a key point. I want to that's such a key point because to have people who really emotionally connected to you, you're going to piss people off to DC: You're going to do it. LT: That's part of the cost. DC: And let me just go back to results. So last year, uh, there was a point where Aflac stock is public information. Aflac stock hit an all time high, all time high had Garth bailed on the combination of Coach Prime and Coach Saban. I'm not saying that's the only reason they hit an all time high, but I'm saying that's part of the reason that that's part of the reason now, uh, as, as an interesting twist. Larry, you didn't know I was going here. Uh, can you talk about your connection to a young Deion Sanders and Powerade and how you made that decision? LT: Yeah, that's a great question. The way we made the decision was really simple. Um, that, again, just like D, your Sprite example, Brand Nerds you gotta go listen to What's Poppin about the origins of what DC did with Sprite and Obey Your Thirst. The origin with us going with, uh, with Deion was very simple, that we knew, uh, his Q score, his Q rating, and, and Branders, if you don't know what Q rating is, Q rating is simply if you know the person and like the person, so it's, it's both, it's a factor of both. No, no, no. He or she or and like he or she. So Taylor Swift's Q rating is through the roof right now. Okay. Um, so Deion's Q rating with males, 12 to 24, which is our target audience, not our brand lover, our target audience. was number one. DC: And what year was this, Larry? LT: This was in the mid 90s. DC: Mid 90s. Okay, good. LT: I shouldn't say that. Sorry. Jordan was number one. MJ was number one. Dion was number two. DC: Okay. All right. LT: Okay. So that was the genesis of it. And we also knew because he was two sports at the time he came to my Niners, won the Superbowl. Um, and then, you know, was also playing baseball for the Reds at the time. You know, you knew if you hook yourself to Deion, he was playing 365 days a year. That wasn't a small thing for us. Right. So that was DC: And LT? Were there any haters? Oh, a lot of crime time. Yeah. There were always, they were always LT: Yeah, and Dion understood that. No one is more brilliant at understanding their brand as a person than Dion. Dion was when he was 25 at the time. Brilliant. He came. One of the reasons why he did the deal with us. He had a Nike deal, but he didn't have any other national deals. And he understood the power of Coca Cola and being with Powerade. And you know, he was, he knew that that would establish himself. Uh, in a way with corporate America that was, uh, that was going to work for him and it worked out great for him. Um, D, do you mind if I take it back to Taylor Swift? DC: Please, brother, please. LT: I want to, I want to get into a couple things because, and this goes right to what we're talking about. It's actually a great segue. Where I'm going with Taylor Swift is, I'm all about the Swifties. Mm. The Swifties who have been with her ride or die. So I found what I wanted to, I, my research was, I wanna, I was trying to find out what are they thinking as with her meteoric rise. Mm-Hmm. . So I actually found, um, uh, a Reddit post by Swifties about this very topic. Can I read a few of them for you? I think they're really interesting. Let's hear it. So, quote, "I've been a Swiftie since Red came out and man, was it a shitstorm to be a fan of Taylor Swift at that time. You couldn't go anywhere without hearing about how annoying her voice was and how she was only writing songs about her exes. You know the story. But now that she's gotten such a massive amount of positive attention these days, I've definitely noticed my friends and other people in my life seeking me out. To ask questions about her, like, quote, did you see, did you see she did this and this? And I just find it all so interesting how our lives have changed because of her. So I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the difference in their life." Um, so what I find fascinating about that brand nerds, one of the, the tenants to what we believe as marketers, you got to understand who your brand lover is. The Swifties are Taylor Swift's brand lover with her ride or die. And so what I found really compelling with that, this, this woman has obviously been with her from the get go. And she, Brand Nerds, becomes an influence to everybody else. You notice people are coming to her. Hey, tell me more about this Taylor Swift. She's now an influencer in her fandom because people are seeking her out. That's what happens when things get bad. Get popular the Swifties become really influential in all things Taylor Swift, right? So that's where I was going D to find out what they're thinking. Okay, I'm really interesting a couple others. I want to read to you Right. Yeah. Um Uh, this is another person the best part. "She is finally getting the recognition she deserves. It's no longer socially unacceptable to say that you listen to her music many people used to roll their eyes at the mention of her name and not respecting her as an artist The worst part, I love how cozy and special our fandom used to be, right now that so many people are listening to her, I kind of lost that spark. For example, to me, August is a special song from a remarkable album, but now it feels like people see it as a TikTok trend." Mmmmm. So you know why I'm reading these two. This is about the brand Lover. The first one saying, hey, uh, come, I'm cool. The second one's going, yeah, I still love her. But it's chipping away with all these people coming, it's chipping away at my love of her. She's losing the spark. So if I'm Taylor Swift, I don't want any of my Swifties to lose the spark. Right? Um, so D, I'm gonna read one more to you and I really would love to hear your thoughts on this. So, um, these are great, aren't they? DC: They are outstanding. LT: So, this is very short. "Best thing, everyone knows who she is. Worst thing, everyone knows who she is." DC: That's good. That's good. LT: And again, I'm not making that up. That's exactly a post that somebody had. DC: Wow, Larry. Um, this. whole Taylor Swift thing and the Swifties. I love you describing the Swifties as her brand lovers because they are. Um, I want to remind some of the people who, uh, who may listen to our podcast and are in that group of folks that say they're tired of it. They don't want to see her involved with the NFL anymore. They don't want to see she and Travis Kelce on the screen anymore. They're not going to watch. NFL games. That's not true, by the way. They are. Not only are they going to watch, they're gonna watch more, but for those that will even utter, uh, those words, two things. The first is, um, Taylor Swift as a brand. So Taylor Swift as a brand by virtue of her wearing an NFL jacket by a woman named Kristen. I think it's Jasinski. It's it's che, it's a nine's book. Pullback my bad's wife. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry, Kristen. World. They're colliding the Niners and chiefs in the Superbowl. You step, you step. I'm sorry. Uh, sorry, Kristen and, uh, Brand Nerds and forever and, and for her mother and father as well, uh, for butchering her name. Thank you for that, Larry. So this woman is now, she's the designer of that jacket. By the way, Clay Thompson also wore that jacket writing to a warriors game. You know, this better than I do Larry. And now Kristen has an official license to produce merchandise jackets. And I would presume more with the NFL. So Taylor Swift as a brand Swift, as a brand, wore this jacket and now Kristin Yuscha, she is now as a brand going to blow up. This is a very good thing, Brand Nerds. This is a very good, good thing. Second beat, anything you want to say about Kristin and the, and the whole jacket thing? LT: Oh no, you, you said it perfectly. DC: Okay, here's the second thing. Brand Nerds, I'm a girl dad. My daughters are Hailey, Lauren, and Sydney. And perhaps one day they will do something where they themselves will become brands. But long before they were brands, they were daddy's girls. They were the children of, of, of Darryl and Valerie. All right. We, their mother and father, Taylor Swift is someone's daughter. Taylor Swift is someone's sibling. Taylor Swift is someone's cousin, niece, or something. She is a young woman in love. Let her be. LT: Yes. Let her be. Yes. Yeah, well said. I, it's, it's interesting. We, we, I want to say a couple personal things. One is I can speak for you on this, D, because I know we have nothing but respect and zero envy for her. God bless her, right? DC: God bless her. God bless her. LT: We want to, I want to state that. The second thing is, uh, our niece, Gabrielle Levy, is a Swiftie. Gabrielle has been to, I can't, I don't even know how many concerts she's been to. She knows pretty much every word of every song. And she and her friends, and Gabrielle's in her mid 20s, just turned 27. And it's a thing. It's a real thing, and I think it's a wonderful thing. And Taylor Swift is along the lines of American music icons. From Sinatra to Presley to Michael Jackson to Madonna to, you know, the, the, the people you can say one word to she's that she's at that level right now and in this fragmentation world where so many people are just in their own corners for her to achieve this is a really phenomenal and incredible thing that she's done. And by the way, a couple of interesting tidbits. Um, I'm sure I want to point out to the Brand Nerds. A lot of dads like real, uh, as you said, the girl dads, um, I'm going to read you a couple tweets, um, that who are also football fans said, "The Taylor Swift effect. My seven year old daughter is demanding we watch the KC Miami game." Dad approves. DC: That's good. LT: Which is really funny. I'm going to read one more. "Say whatever you want about Taylor Swift in the NFL. My 12 year old daughter has just asked me to point out Jason Kelce and it spurred an entire conversation about why linemen have the numbers they do. I love her beyond words, but the kid never cares about football. That was cool. DC: Nice. Nice LT. LT: This, this is, this is a phenomenon. And, and, uh, there's obviously going to people who going to see all parts of this phenomenon. And one other point D that I want to point out the NFL also lost in all this, the NFL is right now has been a juggernaut. Is at the top of its popularity right now. It could even go higher. You know, who knows the ratings for the NFC championship game among your Lions and my Niners peaked at 59 million. There was no Taylor Swift and the, and the audience there, right? Um, and the A A FC game between the Trees Chiefs and Ravens peaked at 55 million. So yes, the, uh, the Niners Lions game was later, so that usually draws bigger ratings. But this isn't just about. Taylor Swift. The NFL is just kicking on all cylinders right now. So that's important as we think about brands. And that's why we wanted to talk about this because you're talking about two juggernauts that are on parallel paths and the confluence of both. And it's pretty incredible. And that's why Roger Goodell and all these, uh, these owners are thrilled. Beyond words about, uh, about this happening. DC: Uh, may I just add, uh, the 49ers who beat my lions, my beloved lions, proud, proud of the lions. What up dope? Proud of, proud of my lions. Uh, Eminem was in the stands in Santa Clara, throwing up two one gun salutes. Okay. To the fans. I've not heard any outrage about that. LT: That's right. Oh, that's funny. Maybe that's a great way, uh, for us to end here. D, what do you think? DC: I think we ended right there with the one gun salutes by Eminem. LT: That's awesome. Okay. So thanks for listening to Brands Beats and Bytes. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl D. C. Cobbin, and Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, and Jade Tate, and Tom DiOro. DC: The Podfather! LT: That is he, and if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple Podcasts, if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast, and we look forward to next time, where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.