Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Killers of the Flower Moon with Jacqueline West and Julie O'Keefe

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Killers of the Flower Moon with Jacqueline West and Julie O'Keefe · The Art of Costume Podcast

0:11
And the interesting part is there is some film footage.
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Have one from I think the 1930s and the woman, the poor bride,
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has so much on. There are six women carrying her
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in on a blanket because she can't walk in it.
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There's so much she's skipping away.
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Hello and welcome to the Art of Costume podcast.
0:46
I am your host, Spencer Williams, and thank you so much
0:49
for joining me for another bonus episode.
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What's going on, Costume nerds? I'm so excited to talk to you
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all, 'cause this is an episode. I've really been looking forward
1:00
to the conversation you're all about to hear, 'cause we're
1:04
talking about Killers of the Flower Moon, the new film
1:06
directed by Martin Scorsese, and it's just such a.
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Powerful, emotional film story. And you know, I love any film
1:19
where I feel like I can walk away and really learn something.
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And to me, that's what this film was for me.
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It opened up my eyes to this whole beautiful culture that I
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really didn't have any insight on before, and now I just.
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Just wanna keep learning more and part of doing that was doing
1:39
this podcast episode that you're all about to listen to.
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So thank you so much for taking time to listen, cuz we have not
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one but two incredible guests that are gonna be joining me in
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a second here to talk about this incredible film.
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But just first, I have to point out I mistakenly said in last
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week's episode at The Hunger Games episode that this week's
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episode was going to be Edward Scissorhands.
2:05
And I was kind of right, kind of wrong.
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So we're actually supposed to be on break this week for our
2:12
holiday and Edward Scissors Hands is coming out next week,
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so. If anything, my blunder just
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added another episode to the calendar because now we get the
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fit and kills killers of the Flower Moon today.
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So you're welcome, I guess So Next week on December 5th is
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when we'll be having our Edward Scissorhands episode and
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Elizabeth will be returning for that one.
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So I'm very excited. It's been a hot minute since
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Elizabeth and I have got together, so but let's talk
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about Killers of the Flower Moon. 1st I'm going to start
2:47
with a little summary before we get into this week's business.
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Killers of the Fire Moon is an epic Western crime saga where
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real love crosses paths with unspeakable betrayal.
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Based on a true story and told through the improbable romance
3:03
of Ernest Burkhart and Molly Kyle, Killers of the Flower Moon
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tracks the suspicious murders of members of the Osage Nation who
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become some of the richest people in the world overnight.
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After oil was discovered underneath their land, and that
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is Killers of the Flower Moon Diving.
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Behind the costumes we have director Martin Scorsese, which
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I mean, I've just been powering through his work.
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Recently I mentioned I've been watching all the mafia movies
3:30
and Goodfellas. I mean, that was so good.
3:33
I know I'm acting like it just came out, but it's, I'm obsessed
3:38
with it right now. So Killers of the Fireman was
3:41
directed by Martin Scorsese. And the costumes were designed
3:45
by the One, the only Jacqueline West.
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And you will know Jacqueline from some of her most notable
3:52
works, such as Quills, for which she was nominated for an Oscar.
3:56
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button.
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Another Oscar nomination, The Social Network Water for
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Elephants. Argo The Revenant, which she got
4:06
another Oscar nomination, and of course Dune, for which she was
4:12
nominated for another Oscar nomination.
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And you know how I feel about Dune, I think that should be an
4:18
Oscar win. But I'm not a voter, so
4:21
whatever. I guess it doesn't matter.
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Dune is one of the greatest sci-fi costume films of all
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time. But enough about that.
4:30
Let's talk about Killers of the Flower Moon.
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So before we get into the interview, a few little notes.
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Today, when this comes out is actually November 28th.
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And on November 28th there's a great exhibition if you want to
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see costumes from Killers of the Flower Moon, taking place at
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Apple in Culver City if you're in the Los Angeles area.
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They have this great exhibit that I got to check out.
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It's called Be on the Screen Killers of the Fire Moon, and
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you can see so many costumes, sets, pieces from the set,
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whatnot. There's so much to see and it's
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such a beautiful exhibit, so I really recommend checking it
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out. Seeing all these Pendleton
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blankets in person really is such a such a gift, so I'm
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really thankful to Apple for opening up this exhibition.
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And the second announcement? So this podcast we are rejoined
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not just by Jacqueline West, but a new friend of mine.
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We're talking about costume consultant Julie O'Keefe.
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And let me just read a quick bio about Julie O'Keefe before we
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get started. Julie O'Keefe grew up in the
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heart of Osage Nation in Oklahoma with a passion for
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design. As her collections garnered the
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following, she launched a Native American Women Dome company that
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specialized in continuing the traditions of Native American
6:04
regalia for community events and dances.
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Recent accomplishments include serving as an art consultant for
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the Creek Nation, leading the Indigenous Cultural department
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for a Netflix pilot, and contributing as a consultant for
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the First Americans Museum. Most recently, Julie O'Keefe
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served as the lead Osage wardrobe consultant.
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For Martin Scorsese's new film Killers of the Flower Moon.
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With that, I'm excited to say that Julie O'Keefe will also be
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joining us for this interview with Jacqueline West and I'm
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very excited to get her insight on a lot of the traditional
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dress that we see within Killers of the Flower Moon.
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I have so many questions. So to that point, I recently,
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just a couple days ago now, did a interview with Julie O'Keefe
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at the Costume Designers Guild. Whereas just me and Julie
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talking about her career as a costume consultant, as a native
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arts consultant, as a researcher, really just got to
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know her and understand her career and the importance she
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has in working with indigenous craftspeople and artisans and
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importance of cultural competence and authenticity.
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So that conversation was recorded and it's going to be
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posted on the YouTube. Channel of the Costume Designers
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Guild, so look out for that. If it's out, by the time this
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comes out, it'll be in the show notes.
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Otherwise, check YouTube now that I'm done blabbing for gosh,
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how long have I been talking? 7 minutes?
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Yeah, let's get started. We're gonna take a quick break
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and we'll be joined by costume designer Jacqueline West and
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Osage costume consultant Julie O'Keefe.
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None. All right, The Art of Costume
8:12
Podcast. Welcome back, costume nerds.
8:15
I am so excited for today's interview.
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First, I am so excited to welcome costume designer
8:20
Jacqueline W Hi, Jacqueline. Hello, how's Spencer?
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It's so good to see you again. I'm also honored to welcome
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Julie O'Keefe, A researcher and is a Osage costume consultant
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who worked alongside Jacqueline on killers at A Flower Moon.
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Julie, thank you so much for being here.
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I'm so excited to meet you. Well, thank you for having me.
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I was so excited. Well, I've got to say, this is
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an exciting, exciting interview. I love the film and I'm a big
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fan of what this team created. The story was, of course.
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Very tragic, but there was also so much beauty to it that was
8:55
really moving, especially within the storytelling of the
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costumes. So I'm going to start first with
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Jacqueline, but we'll definitely pass it around as we talk.
9:04
I first want to start with you, Jacqueline, going back to the
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beginning. Can you take me back to the
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beginning of this project and your collaboration with director
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Martin Scorsese? Oh.
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Yes, I I was thrilled when I got the call.
9:20
Wanted me to do this with him. I it it was like one of my
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favorite moments in my career and and I was at my it was
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during the pandemic and I was at my house in Deadwood and I
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remember I was sitting out on my front porch that overlooks.
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It's in the Black Hills and overlooks.
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Mount Moriah, you know where Wild Bill Hickok is buried.
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And he's fan of Wild Bill Hickok, the whole calamity chain
9:49
and the Deadwood mythology. He'd read the book, the Pete
9:52
Dexter book. So we had a we had a meeting of
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the minds right away, you know, behind you.
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Well, that's Mount Moriah. So then we talked about some of
10:02
my past work that I, where I'd, you know, portrayed Native
10:08
Americans. Different nations and and then
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we started talking and we we felt, you know I felt there was
10:17
an affinity there the whole Italian thing.
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My mother was Italian and I just.
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I've always loved his movies and it was it was more just getting
10:29
you know, to know him and then he said just do it you know and.
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I started in just doing research, just learning
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everything I could learn about the Osage Nation and about the
10:42
people, their history. And I the way I portrayed other
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claims peoples, the Osagers were so unique and not only were they
10:54
incredibly statuesque and you know as a as a you know, their
11:00
ancestors, but they they had a a slightly.
11:05
Not slightly, a very different, different aesthetic and
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something I really identified with.
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I just right away sang to me and I just started amassing as much
11:19
research as I could, but not just on the other stage like.
11:24
Where they were living at that time, you know, the people they
11:27
encountered, merchants, salesman, townspeople, you know,
11:34
blacksmiths, everybody that would be coming to that world.
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And I just started making boards in my head first.
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I just compiled files on my computer of anything and and
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organized in that way before I got to Oklahoma and actually
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launched all my boards. With traditional Osage modern
11:55
Osage Cowboys ventures. I did the whole gamut because I
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love. It.
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It's my favorite part. You have a reputation for that,
12:06
the queen of research. They called me that.
12:09
The Queen and the Queen's shirt, right, called that.
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I know how to the I mean, I don't.
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I think The Revenant, no one wanted to put those costumes on
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after a few days, right? You know, But then Julie.
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Was sent to me, who was really my secret weapon, because she
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was not not just a guide, but also she had, you know, she was
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the voice of the Osage for me. She was just my collaborator and
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they they said I could only have her for.
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Budgetarily for 10 days and I said, Oh no, no, no, no, no.
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No way. Come on, Julie, Didn't believe
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that, did you? Not for a second.
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Then oh, after after four months of doing research, I got we we
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bought a big motorhome and and put our dog in it and traveled
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down to Oklahoma. Right.
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Right down. I pretty much took the whole
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Osage journey from Missouri. Through Missouri, through Kansas
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and down into Oklahoma. And I got a real feel for the
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places they'd lived and been and what it looked like.
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And then they end up on a very barren part of Oklahoma, but
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blessed by God with, you know, all these incredible riches
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through oil that then get taken away.
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So the story really it was a journey for me.
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Journey. I mean, this movie I feel is
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kind of sacred to me. Mm hmm.
13:49
Yeah. No, I definitely.
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I could feel that too, just seeing it.
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And you know, Julie, I love a film where I feel like I could
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walk away and I really learned something through the
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storytelling. And I mean, I couldn't think of
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a better film. So Jacqueline brought you on
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Julie. And I first love to hear more
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about your background and how this partnership came to be from
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your end. She was sent to me by the chief
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of the Osage Nation that was that was his contribution to.
14:19
That's incredible. Me getting it right.
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Well, so my background is actually in product development
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and I did a lot of furniture design for large companies of
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couple of them out of California over the years and a company
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that I had with another business partner.
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And I would, I lived in the, I lived in the DC area.
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And so I came back to Oklahoma in 2018.
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And at the time they were talking about the fact that they
14:51
were going to be shooting the movie.
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And so my chief had called and was kind of and said, are you
14:59
going to put your resume in? And I'd had a passion project of
15:04
mine that was a small shop called the Cedar Chest, but
15:08
basically produced museum quality Osage clothing and
15:14
regalia for other tribes. So what I was doing was going up
15:19
to New York because it was so close to me in DC and bringing
15:22
goods down like textiles and fringes and different different
15:27
items that you really couldn't get.
15:29
I developed a whole line of I must have tie dyed looking it.
15:34
Well I I was inspired by a Spanish shawl.
15:36
I founded the Georgetown market but anyway I had was triple
15:40
dipping the fringe in different colors and then having the and
15:44
designing the shawls to be beaded and that's kind of how I
15:47
got started it. It started kind of selling them
15:51
at the museum and then it started to soar and so had that
15:55
for about 8 years. And so you know, but those
15:59
product development and and putting together what I was
16:04
putting together as a vision for people in my community because a
16:08
lot of that the silhouette has never changed, but the materials
16:11
that you use, technology changes everything.
16:13
So I was able to set and really kind of provide this service and
16:17
give people something they didn't have.
16:19
And so IN2018I closed that store like around 2015 and so I came
16:27
to Oklahoma on my way. I was moving to Santa Fe and and
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I'm still here in Tulsa, by the way.
16:35
So, but I gotten this call from Chief and he was like, I really
16:40
would like you to put your resume in and it was during, it
16:42
was right before COVID started. And so, you know, I said, oh,
16:47
chief, you know, I don't know anything about the movie
16:49
business. And he said, no, no, really.
16:52
We need to have, you know, someone who really can go in and
16:56
knows how to deal kind of with a different environment, you know,
16:59
which is really saying, a lot of times I go off and do things, I
17:02
have no idea what I'm doing and see, you know, it turns out, you
17:05
know. So anyway, but he was like, I
17:07
but we want your eyes on it. And so I said, all right, well,
17:11
I went ahead and sent the resume in.
17:12
And then the shutdown happened. Didn't hear anything.
17:16
And so it kind of, you know, cycled through and everything
17:20
changed. And so really that March of 2020
17:26
is when I got the phone call from the costume supervisor,
17:30
Cheryl. And she gave me a call and said,
17:33
you know, we're interested. Jackie's interested in having
17:35
you come in. And so that's how I made my way
17:38
there. Wow, what a journey for everyone
17:41
to get to this point. So you must be so excited to
17:43
finally see the film being so well received out in the world
17:47
now. Must be Incredible feeling.
17:50
It is I, I. The thing I love is that because
17:55
Jackie was open to collaboration, which working
17:58
with the consultants very hard. If you haven't done that before,
18:01
as you know you're coming in and it's kind of like you don't even
18:04
come from the movie industry. Why would you be telling me that
18:07
she didn't have the attitude at all.
18:09
The attitude was basically let's make this the very best that we
18:12
can. Let's make it the most accurate
18:13
and authentic. You know, this is the mission of
18:16
what we're doing here. And so it was very easy to jump
18:20
right in and then to really start going through the research
18:23
and what I came away from that when I saw the movie for the
18:26
first time and then all the buzz that's going on now is really
18:31
seeing that people are truly seeing us authentically.
18:35
And there there is no other tribe that can say that right
18:38
now. You know, when it comes to this
18:40
level of movie, you know, I mean and I mean in period pieces, not
18:45
contemporary pieces, but you know, it's just it's a struggle
18:49
that the community has had for a very long time.
18:53
And I think Hollywood is right and ready to actually tell our
18:58
stories accurately. And I mean there is no one
19:01
better to tell the story than Martin Scorsese.
19:04
And I really am grateful to be honest with you for the team
19:07
that he put together and how you know his commitment to
19:12
authenticity there. There's integrity in that, and
19:14
there was integrity with every single person that worked on
19:17
this film in those departments that were the head of
19:19
departments. That's beautiful.
19:21
I'm so glad that authenticity really came through.
19:23
And that really leads me to my first question for the film.
19:26
As Jacqueline was talking about, there was a lot of research
19:29
involved, so this really goes to both of you.
19:30
Now, this film takes place in the 1920s.
19:33
Lots of black and white photos, I assume, if there are some.
19:37
So what did that research process look like between the
19:39
two of you? Well.
19:41
I I went by the script the stills that.
19:45
That they wanted to reproduce. I had the Julie's help and also
19:49
I had young Osage women working in my department.
19:54
They, along with Addie Bronhorst, started bringing me
19:57
family photos of members of their families that actually had
20:03
been part of the Reign of Terror or been, you know, lived through
20:08
it. And I really relied on those
20:11
photos to recreate. Plus Osage people.
20:15
I've said this in other interviews and you've probably
20:18
read it, but they were very wealthy at at this point in time
20:23
and they were able to afford home move making home movies,
20:29
which at that point in history were $1800 a minute.
20:33
And I said only the Royal Family in England could afford home
20:37
movies at that point at the stage.
20:40
So they documented their travels, how elegantly they
20:44
dressed, where they went, where they vacationed and then they
20:49
were able to afford studio stills, which as I said, people
20:55
started bringing me with Julia's encouragement.
20:58
I think there was some trust involved there because this is a
21:02
a very Seminole moment in their history and and very personal
21:08
and very hard to to share about because of what happened and
21:14
that they shared those photos with me that everything because
21:18
I could reproduce those photographs for Marty.
21:22
The the elegance of their clothes.
21:24
They shopped in Paris, in New York.
21:27
They had a Tiffany store. Julie always mentions in the
21:29
trading post. I think Gray Horse, Julie.
21:34
Yes, it was called the Big Hill Mercantile, but it was really
21:38
probably the first department store in the state of Oklahoma
21:42
it had. Everything from caskets and
21:44
pierceras to Tiffany's diamonds and Pendleton blankets.
21:47
And thanks for your help. That's incredible.
21:50
I did not know any of this when I was watching the film.
21:53
I was really not surprised, but just so fascinated with what I
21:57
was seeing. It was really the Herod's of the
22:01
Osage, you know, 'cause they could afford.
22:04
I remember going into Herod's in London when the Kuwaitis were
22:08
the richest per capita people in the world for their oil and it
22:12
was all Kuwaiti women, you know, in their suits and walking
22:19
through Harrods with big shopping bags and they had a
22:22
department you could imagine, you know, diamonds.
22:26
And you know, there was Tiffany, you know, everything was there.
22:30
And this is like that, I think, for the Osage.
22:33
So I relied a lot on the home movies and on studio shots that
22:39
were taken of them, like the one you put up here was an actual We
22:44
replicated the blankets and everything from a black and
22:47
white photo of all four sisters. And Julie, you yourself are a
22:53
researcher, so I'm sure when you you must have hit the ground
22:56
running, I assume with this project.
22:59
Well, you know a lot of when you're doing product
23:03
development, which I did for my shop, and there were several of
23:06
these fabrics that I wanted to reproduce, not just to sell to
23:11
my tribe, but others, in particular the trade cloth or
23:14
the broadcloth. And so that's the part where I
23:17
really sat. Understanding the history of why
23:21
we even have these materials in our clothing, like all of the
23:25
ribbon that you see on these women with all these ribbon work
23:28
blankets or you, you know, wonder why we would be wearing
23:32
Pendleton or why would be we'd be wearing this blanket.
23:35
But you know, a lot of these things before we purchase them,
23:38
we were trading because. As Osages, our culture was
23:43
basically one built on the wealth of our people.
23:47
What we gathered for ourselves, what we haunted and how we lived
23:51
was successful. How we got through the winter.
23:54
I mean, Lizzie Q was living Buffalo hunting her entire life.
24:00
Then you know, really going out and they were cleaning these
24:05
hides. And you know, if you think about
24:07
the hard work of that and surviving.
24:10
But then she and her husband have these children and this
24:13
life gets forced in on us where, you know, the government came in
24:17
and basically threatened to cover cut everyone's rations in
24:21
half, which means your family would starve unless you took
24:25
them to a missionary school or a military school.
24:29
And so they're forced to be taken out.
24:32
And then they're taught they're not allowed to speak their
24:34
language, so they have to speak English.
24:36
So you've got a situation in 1920 where you have these women
24:41
coming back. They've been back for several
24:43
years with Lizzie Q. They're first English speakers
24:48
in their own country and their own lands, like immigrants today
24:53
are, that come across our borders or come in.
24:56
And so they're trying to figure out how to acclimate to this
24:59
life. And they're then you have all
25:02
this wealth poured on top of it to to a group of people that
25:06
that that wasn't their wealth. In their mind, the wealth wasn't
25:10
the money. It was your family.
25:12
You know, your wealth is your family.
25:15
It's who you have around you. It's who you survive with and
25:18
stay safe with. That is your wealth.
25:21
And so that's the. The interesting part when we
25:25
started going through all of the clothing and I walked into
25:29
Jackie's office set to her studio that day, and I see, I
25:34
mean floor to ceiling, thousands of photos that she said and how
25:39
they're organized, but how she organized them said everything
25:44
about where this was going in her mind because.
25:48
You look through and you see men that are dressed traditionally.
25:52
You see women dressed traditionally.
25:54
Then you see women in just modern clothing of the 1920s and
25:59
men the same way that are acclimating to the culture.
26:02
Then you see modern with a Osage blanket, men and women.
26:08
And it was all of these photos. And I was like, Yep, what this
26:11
is telling. And what these women are telling
26:15
on the screen is a story of truly a human struggle of how
26:19
are we going to fit in and stay safe and how are we representing
26:24
ourselves? Because the way you're
26:26
representing yourself was either going to keep you safe or make
26:29
you a target. Unfortunately for us.
26:31
I mean the color of your skin did so you know but but I just
26:35
think it's it was something when I walked in that day and.
26:39
Being a researcher and being someone who's you know familiar
26:43
and in this culture and and a few other cultures too within
26:47
the the United States, you're really starting to look from the
26:52
camera or the scope in your head of like what has, what has this
26:57
particular family been through. How are they going to be
27:01
representing that and talking about without saying?
27:05
And the best way and some of the best ways that we express
27:07
ourself is definitely through our clothing.
27:10
Right. It was very fascinating to see.
27:13
And one thing that really stuck out to me when I was saying in a
27:16
theater was the use of the blankets.
27:18
I, for some reason I think this was in my head, but seeing it on
27:23
screen, it really connected with me.
27:25
And Julie, I want to ask you. Just tell me about the use of
27:30
these at the Pendleton blankets and how they worked alongside
27:33
the storytelling of the costume design.
27:34
I never seen this before. So Pendleton, we have a long
27:38
relationship with Pendleton blankets and older trade
27:42
blankets. And So what you see in this
27:46
photograph in front of us is an an everyday shiny game that's
27:51
going on. Everyone is relaxed in this
27:54
photo. They're out in public.
27:57
A lot of the blankets and the shawls that you see were
27:59
basically we wear those to show modesty.
28:04
And so even how it's covering, how it's covering us up here,
28:08
you know, because we're covering from here down and so you know,
28:13
you see. How they're folded with the
28:16
stripes going up and down, these ladies are have I mean Jackie
28:20
had photographs, some of which actually came from the Osage
28:24
tribal Museum we had up there of the family and where the Fringe
28:29
is showing on the outside. But that the women have six
28:32
different ways that they can wear a blanket and the same for
28:36
a shawl. And so it depends on what life
28:39
event is going on. Here they're relaxed and they're
28:43
setting, watching this game. The previous photograph was one
28:48
where Molly was going to go visit the priest.
28:50
So she's wearing her blanket more formally when she's going
28:53
to see the priest, when you see her with the right there, and so
28:58
she's come out of the church and she's coming into the church, so
29:01
she's getting down and he's helping her down.
29:04
But you know it's. It is.
29:08
She there's a seam where she's helping Lizzie Q and Lizzie,
29:12
Lizzie Q is is dying. And so there's another
29:16
utilitarian way she's actually wearing a shawl and it's a black
29:20
shawl which you would wear for a funeral.
29:22
And some people, some women wear them all the time, but you would
29:27
either have it around your shoulders.
29:29
But for her, she was coming and tending to her mother as a
29:32
caretaker. So in those actions that she's.
29:36
That she's doing. And I made a habit of going to
29:39
Lily's trailer every morning after she would go up on step
29:44
because it was always a closed rehearsal.
29:46
And then she would come down and I would go in and I would say,
29:49
OK, show me exactly your actions and how you're using your hands.
29:55
What are you doing in this day with your actions?
29:58
So she'd shown me her body movement because it's in the
30:02
script. But just because the words are
30:04
there, it's not telling you exactly how someone's moving and
30:07
what they're doing. So she's showing me.
30:10
And then I would say, OK, well, today what we're going to do is
30:13
this is going to be more of a fold.
30:15
That's going to be utilitarian. We're putting under your
30:17
shoulder. We're flipping this up and
30:19
you're going to be combing your mother's hair.
30:21
And, you know, so we would work with it.
30:24
I worked with her everyday pretty much on movement that
30:26
way. And that is really.
30:29
If you pay attention to the different ways, you can see it
30:32
folded many different ways on her.
30:34
Right, that definitely stood out to me.
30:36
Jacqueline, how many blankets were on set for this film?
30:41
I I can't remember how many made for us.
30:44
We found some old ones, like the one we used on Leo's coat.
30:49
You know, his jacket, the yellow and brown jacket that's in so
30:53
many of the publicity. That one, Yes, that's a a real
30:58
authentic Pendleton from the 1920s.
31:02
Then only one which Leo ended. But they made us.
31:08
I'd I'd say probably 300 to 400 blankets.
31:12
Didn't you say you know? Jackie, I'm thinking it's that
31:15
or it might have been a little bit more because when you think
31:18
of all of the extras, because we had all those blankets.
31:23
The extras were wearing along with what you had made for the
31:27
girls plus, plus not just the Pendleton's, but then we had,
31:31
she had ribbon work blankets made.
31:33
There was at least six of those, several beaded ones.
31:36
There was at least three of those.
31:38
So I mean, it really started, you know, kind of piling up.
31:43
The limit does not exist on the amount of blankets.
31:46
Not for us ages. Julie refers to the blankets as
31:51
the mink coats of the Osage women and they were that they
31:55
were that treasured and that valuable they were.
31:59
They were very expensive back then.
32:01
You know relatively speaking. They were so collaborative.
32:05
There was a a famous shot in the in the IT was either at the
32:09
tribal council building in in Pawhuska or it was at the
32:14
museum. I can't remember, but it was a
32:16
panoramic shot which I collect those my house in Deadwood.
32:20
You know like just these panoramic shots of all the
32:24
people that were headed to Washington DC for a delegation.
32:28
And it was every blanket, Pendleton, blanket design you
32:31
could imagine. We did as we photo.
32:35
We took the photograph, blew up sections, 22 sections of the
32:40
photo close to Pendleton. They sent me the color palette
32:45
of the yarns that they used back then.
32:48
They had archives and they had archival designs that they did
32:52
particularly for the Osage, like they had certain ones they did
32:55
for the for the Lakota, soon certain ones for the Osage,
33:00
certain ones, I think for other nations.
33:04
But they had the color palettes and they had, they reproduced
33:08
the labels that they used in their blankets in the 1920s.
33:12
And from that panoramic shot, they reproduced almost every
33:16
blanket in the photo. Wow, that's an incredible amount
33:20
of work. But clearly it paid off.
33:22
And that one photo of the four sisters lying on that blanket at
33:26
the shinny games? It's one of my favorite to me.
33:29
That's like a painting. Oh, I love this photo.
33:32
I could look at it all day long, which is why I've had it up the
33:34
entire time I'm. Very elegant.
33:38
I love that photo. I love.
33:40
It really shows who all of them are, their their attitudes,
33:45
their personalities. You know, just a certain, you
33:52
know, closeness as sisters. That scene is in the movie is
33:55
wonderful too. It's just so beautifully acted.
34:00
It's real. It doesn't even feel acted.
34:02
I kind of agree more I would love to talk about.
34:08
Lily Gladstone, who plays Molly in the story.
34:11
Incredible, incredible performance, definitely just the
34:14
heart of this. Thinking back to the first time
34:17
we saw Molly in a film, there was a lot of storytelling
34:20
already within her costumes when we see her in the town.
34:23
So Jacqueline, how did the two of you and your team work to
34:27
create these costumes around at this character who was really so
34:31
much of the soul of this film and the story?
34:34
She is very well said. She is the soul of the story.
34:38
She's also the moral compass, I think of the story because it's
34:43
a a story of the betrayal of trust and it's a love story
34:48
about both love and betrayal and very complex.
34:54
It's Shakespearean really, how we started with Molly.
34:58
She was in everything I'd read about her and every every photo
35:03
I'd seen of her. She was the most traditional of
35:07
of the sisters. She really wanted to maintain
35:11
Osage tradition and she it, it was part of her soul, the
35:16
tradition of the Osage and she never went against that.
35:22
I mean, she did have modern, you know, twenty 1920s shoes to go
35:26
into town, but and a nice, you know, probably very expensive
35:32
bag, you know, for the most part she was completely traditional.
35:39
When she's at home, she's in the Osage blouse that all the women
35:44
have worn for many, many years. Historically, I think Julie
35:48
mentioned they hadn't changed their clothes in 150 years.
35:52
She wears, you know, a broad cloth skirt, which was a fabric
35:56
from the trade. Sometimes the gerundals,
36:00
sometimes silk, French, you know, French satin, French
36:04
silks. But the shapes of her costume
36:08
are traditional and we stayed with that and we made all our
36:11
clothes. Her shirts have ribbon work.
36:14
She wears the traditional Lebancas on her blouse.
36:18
The silver, the big silver German silver carved, what can I
36:25
call them, Brooches or pins? She's totally traditional.
36:32
The beaded Czechoslovakian bead, twisted necklace.
36:35
She has it all on right here in this photo.
36:38
She wears the traditional moccasins.
36:41
Julie was the one who found all of those artisans who made her
36:46
costumes that we couldn't make in the house, you know, didn't
36:51
make the jewelry. We did a little finger weaving
36:54
in house but Julie brought us finger weaving artisans.
36:57
We did fringe the blankets in the house but we also had young
37:02
Osage women who had earned learned the art from their moms
37:05
or their aunts coming in working with us because we had to fringe
37:09
so many. This is all hand done, all the
37:12
fringe you see on these blankets, all hand done after we
37:16
got the blanket into the workshop.
37:18
My workshop was run by a wonderful, wonderful specialty
37:21
customer, Mindy Eiler. And then the clothes for all the
37:25
Osage, even the we needed multiple dresses for Anna.
37:30
We would find find you know incredible designer 1920s
37:34
dresses and then we would have to reproduce them because I need
37:37
multiples for for what happens to her.
37:40
And we did all of the Osage shirts and blouses, even
37:47
trousers for the men. We made it all in house.
37:51
But the actual artwork of the Osage, like the trim, the the
37:57
ribbon work blankets, the finger weaving, the jewelry, the
38:02
beading, the Wabankas, all done by Osage artisans for the movie,
38:08
brought to us through Julie. And Julie, I actually wanted to
38:11
ask you, there's a very beautiful scene where Ernest and
38:16
Molly get married and traditional costumes, I must
38:21
point out, is Molly's wedding outfit.
38:24
It was very military in a sense, if that's why I'm picking up.
38:30
Yes. And so you know the history on
38:33
the on the military coat or the Osage wedding coat.
38:38
Is in the 1800s the there was a delegation that went up to they
38:45
went up to visit Thomas Jefferson and of course this was
38:49
a meeting where you know Jefferson the United States
38:52
government is showing their might and you know really trying
38:56
to you know bring the natives in but let them know this you know
39:00
we're in charge and this is military and one of the the
39:04
chief who was there at the time. Admired a military coat that
39:09
this gentleman had on. And so when the meeting was
39:13
over, similar to diplomats who give each other diplomatic gifts
39:17
now the gift that was given to them, Jefferson turned around to
39:21
this gentleman and said take off your military coat and gave it
39:26
to this chief. Well, as Jackie stated earlier,
39:30
I mean O Saints men are very broad and stately and very tall.
39:35
And so they were unable to wear European style jackets.
39:41
So what they did was pass it down to their daughter.
39:43
They gave them to their daughters.
39:45
And so the family then took this, and they put Osage ribbon
39:51
work and they added their own individual style into those
39:56
coats. And so these started in meetings
40:00
being something that was traded and given into and each one of
40:04
these coats. If you were marrying a woman who
40:08
was wearing one of these coats at a wedding, you knew that she
40:12
came from an extremely prominent family and an and had a or a
40:17
high level council member and her family to own one of these.
40:21
Wow, I've I was blown away when I saw these costumes.
40:25
Jacqueline, do you remember seeing these costumes on set?
40:28
And just you must have been like, wow, what are we doing
40:31
here? This is incredible.
40:32
I I mean, if you see there's everything in these.
40:35
There's the ribbon work that is very typical and unique to be
40:41
Osage. The hand on her molly's wedding
40:46
skirt is stands for friendship. There's woodland, The woodland.
40:52
Tribes, which the Osage are descendants of.
40:55
The woodland designs are all done in beadwork on one of the
41:00
sisters coats. There's embroidery work, the
41:05
Lotus pattern there. There's so much detail in these
41:09
coats and we did these all in house with the exception of the
41:15
finger weaving belt, finger woven belts and the.
41:19
Written and embroidery work that Julie had the artisans make.
41:23
We did the coats in house and then Julie, you know found
41:28
people that. And the beautiful thing about
41:31
that was, is that it gave so many people Osage people.
41:36
They got to be part of this project of the making of which
41:40
was really heart warming for me when I saw them all out there
41:44
all together being photographed. I just got chills.
41:48
It was such a that was such a collaboration, that wedding
41:51
scene and even Julie. We had Julie in house helping
41:56
direct. I have the fabulous cutter
41:58
fitter that I've used on many movies, Rosalie Lee and she was
42:03
able to come down from Canada and work on this.
42:06
She'd done The Revenant with me, and I think Leo helped with that
42:09
and she directed her this brilliant sewing room and.
42:14
Julie really was the consultant on those wedding coats that they
42:20
were exactly, they look like museum pieces they do, they're
42:24
every one of them and quite frankly the the all the items
42:29
that we have including the ribbon work blanket that you see
42:32
around her waist and and the the those coats.
42:36
The coat that the bride has on the blanket around, she's got a
42:40
skirt on. Underneath that she has an
42:42
unfinished finger woven belt. Then there's another one under
42:45
that. She has a hat.
42:47
She has multiple pens. This is all to be given away and
42:52
similar to what we don't call it a dowry, but it but it would be
42:55
like a dowry that she is giving away but she's giving it away to
42:58
someone who would have been. Extremely helpful or important
43:03
for her, her wedding and for this whole union to happen.
43:08
And so they would put them behind a blanket and then all of
43:11
this would would come off. And the interesting part is, is
43:15
there is some film footage? Of one from I think, the 1930s.
43:20
And the woman, the poor bride has so much on.
43:23
There are six women carrying her in on a blanket because she
43:27
can't walk in it. There's so much she's just
43:31
skipping away. So, you know, but these are
43:33
parts of of history that nobody would know about us, You know,
43:37
no one would do this. And so that's what I really love
43:41
about getting, you know, having the opportunity to really share.
43:45
That's really being shared. I can I just say something with
43:50
this film has already done it just came up on my phone
43:55
something ping the United the US order issued today honors Maria
44:02
Tall Chief America's first prima ballerina.
44:07
They made 1/4 it came out today. I.
44:10
Just thought. I went on Saturday, her daughter
44:12
came to Tulsa and they had a big celebration.
44:15
Oh, I love that. You know that her explain the
44:17
relationship of of the people who worked on our movie,
44:24
Brandy's brother JT and and his mother who contributed to Celia
44:31
Tulchi for all relatives of that work of Maria Tulchi and look at
44:38
this picture of her. She was, when I was a young
44:41
girl, my favorite ballerina. I had no idea she was Osage.
44:47
I went to see the ballet ruse to Monte Carlo with my mother in
44:50
San Francisco, and she was the star.
44:53
And I was obsessed by her because she was so long and
44:57
elegant. She, I think she was doing Swan
44:59
Lake and she. Actually, like became a swan.
45:03
I mean she was so fluid. I think Makarova always copied
45:07
her later on the style of dancing, but they made 1/4.
45:12
They did. We have 10.
45:14
My God, I'm going to run out and get some.
45:17
They, they poured them in this bowl.
45:19
And then they had, they were. And I was like, Oh my gosh.
45:21
And it was raining cats and dogs last Sunday, But everybody
45:25
rolled out for it. I mean, Tulsans and everyone,
45:28
really. Lily was there and so.
45:32
I went to this movie. Was responsible for that.
45:36
I think that it definitely helped with that, even though
45:38
Maria tells you thrilled on her own steam.
45:40
But she could definitely. But yes, I think all at the same
45:44
time, it's very complimentary for sure, of everything that is
45:48
happening for our people being in the spotlight right now.
45:51
I got chills when I saw it because I did a movie once in
45:55
Pawhuska with Terrence Malick and I hadn't heard of the Osage
45:59
because they don't teach about that in in schools.
46:04
Because of what happened. And so I said who the Osage and
46:08
I have always regarded myself as you know, my husband's 1/4 black
46:14
feet. And I I've always loved Native
46:17
culture. Thought it was so just so
46:21
beautiful, the philosophy behind it and you know, taking only
46:27
what you need and and. You know, not disturbing the
46:31
environment. It was all romantic to me as a
46:33
Berkeley hippie girl, you know, So to to not realize it was a
46:40
tribe that I didn't know about, you know, and how beautiful
46:44
everything was when I went there and saw photos and windows and
46:48
stuff and not having known about them and I didn't know like I
46:52
said that Maria Tallchi was Osage.
46:54
And then when I started working with her relatives, it was like
46:58
it was just a. Fantastic moment for me with my
47:01
whole history with the tall cheese.
47:05
And I also want to give a shout out to my friend who's the his
47:09
name's Chad Renfro and he's the ambassador to the Osage, to the
47:14
Osage tribe for the movie. But he designed that quarter.
47:19
Wow. Chad worked with the US Mint.
47:23
He was going out there all last year and designing that corner.
47:26
So you. Go out and get one.
47:29
Well, this has been so exciting that this just happened right
47:32
now. And it just, it makes my heart
47:35
happy knowing that this was such a beautiful, enjoyable
47:38
experience for everyone involved and that so many different
47:41
artisans were able to come together and really create this
47:44
beautiful story that I hope everyone is rushing to the
47:47
theaters to see. Not once, but a few times to
47:49
really just take in what happened here because this was
47:52
really a special film. Costume designer Jacqueline W,
47:55
thank you so much. I hope we could talk again soon.
47:58
Maybe when we head to Arakis Wink, Wink and Julie O'Keefe,
48:04
please, my door is open. I would love to have these
48:06
conversations with you as your career really takes off in the
48:09
film industry. This feels like the beginning of
48:11
something really incredible. It's already sought after as a
48:15
consultant by other films, right?
48:17
You should be Thank you both so much.
48:21
This has been a real pleasure. Thank you so much.
48:23
Have a nice day. You too.
48:29
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48:34
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