Latest / Chapel Talks / An Exploration - Class in the Local Church | Jason Roach, Maegan Webb, Kevin Croft | School of Theology 2026

Transcript

An Exploration - Class in the Local Church | Jason Roach, Maegan Webb, Kevin Croft | School of Theology 2026 · Chapel Talks

0:00
There is, God willing, a quote on the screen
0:02
from a woman called Jackie Pullinger. She said
0:06
this, don't tell someone about Christ unless
0:08
you're willing to give them your bed. Jackie
0:11
Pullinger is a missionary in Hong Kong, mainly
0:13
reaching out to those who are recovering from
0:16
drug addiction. And her simple point was that
0:19
the call to follow Christ is a call to become
0:23
part of Christ's family. And so the implication
0:26
for us as Christians is to be ready to be that
0:29
family for others. And the reality is that the
0:35
bigger the differences there are between us and
0:38
the people we call, then sometimes the bigger
0:41
the demands that can place on us. Certainly different
0:43
demands are placed. on us and we want to think
0:47
together today about what it looks like to put
0:49
philippians 2 4 into practice to consider the
0:52
interests of others before our own to be people
0:56
who put hospitality into practice to welcome
0:59
others into our space so that they might become
1:02
our friends We've heard already that class is
1:06
a difficult thing to pin down, doesn't stand
1:09
still, it's elusive. And yet it is this word
1:12
that categorizes us along economic and cultural
1:17
lines. And we want to dig into some ways in which
1:21
we can navigate that. So you've heard a little
1:24
bit from Megan and from Kevin. Just say a little
1:27
bit more about what your roles involve before
1:30
we move on. So Megan, start us off. Yeah, so
1:33
I work in Camden and Islington and my role has
1:37
a special focus on working with people on council
1:39
estates and with seniors. I grew up on a council
1:44
estate myself in North London and I didn't have
1:46
a Christian influence for over 30 years. So I've
1:50
got a particular passion for reaching people
1:52
in the context like the one that I came out of.
1:57
Yeah, and as well as looking after South London,
1:59
I have the privilege of overseeing our council
2:01
state and seniors ministry. Elsewhere exists
2:04
to be igniting a movement of mission in the local
2:07
church. And so our missional teams are working
2:11
alongside other churches to help them to reach
2:14
out. onto communities like estates the two and
2:18
a half million people that are living on social
2:20
housing of some sort and yeah just being equipped
2:23
to share the gospel and to do life with people
2:26
living in those communities we want to stress
2:29
that our sins are like scarlet we are people
2:33
who've made mistakes who are still making mistakes
2:35
and yet we're here today because we believe that
2:39
Jesus has washed us whiter than snow and we want
2:42
to be part of the conversation, not because we
2:44
have got it right and always have done things
2:46
perfectly. We're learning and on a journey along
2:49
with you guys. And just putting that into practice,
2:53
I wrote this little book a couple of years ago
2:55
on crossing cultures for church leaders, talking
2:59
about class and different things. And one of
3:01
the first things I say in that is that the first
3:05
sermon I gave on a council estate to people walked
3:09
out and said they'd never come back to church
3:10
again. The first evangelistic event I put on
3:14
as I planted a church and a council estate, I
3:16
thought it'd be great to call it tiramisu. This
3:19
seemed like a really good idea. The one guy gets
3:21
the irony up there. And I guess that just shows
3:25
how I was importing a way of life that I had
3:30
inherited and learned, even without realizing
3:33
it, into my ministry. And we can all do that.
3:37
And as Matthew said earlier, we want to learn,
3:39
pick up on those blind spots. And the particular
3:42
theme that we want to think about together now
3:44
is the theme of communication and how communication
3:48
can act as an invisible barrier within church
3:52
life. And we're going to look at that through
3:53
three lenses, through the lens of personal interactions,
3:58
through the lens of the way that leaders interact
4:02
with one another. And then finally, through public
4:05
teaching. And the way that we're going to do
4:07
that is we're going to hear three fictional dramatized
4:13
dialogues. OK, so you're going to hear this fictional
4:16
dramatized dialogue. Think about the archers.
4:19
Think about EastEnders. That's what we're talking
4:21
about. But it's only three minutes and you're
4:23
going to hear it and then we're going to discuss
4:25
it. We're going to use it as a basis for our
4:27
discussion. So let's see if the technology works.
4:31
We're going to go straight into the first one.
4:38
Yeah, we might actually be in Brighton over half
4:40
-term. Yeah, a uni friend of mine lives down
4:43
there now. Said we should come down while the
4:45
kids are still, you know, young enough to enjoy
4:46
it. Nice. We'll be in Manchester. My old housemates
4:51
planted a church up there. Be good to see what
4:53
God's up to. What about you, Mark? Um, not sure
4:57
yet. Probably just staying local. Ah, nice. I
5:02
feel like there's something really grounding
5:04
about that, you know. Greg and David move on.
5:07
Mark stays where he is for a moment. Yeah, grounding.
5:12
Have you tried the oat milk? It's actually not
5:15
bad. Okay, we'll look at this example. Perhaps
5:23
you can get it. There's something about geography
5:25
here, okay? And how geographical place can cause
5:29
tension. and confusion. I want to be clear, we're
5:32
not intending to make a moral judgment about
5:34
where your friends live and whether it's okay
5:37
for them to live close or far away. We're picking
5:39
up on something that came up a little bit in
5:41
the last session, David Goodhart's somewheres
5:44
versus anywheres sort of motif. And that paradigm
5:47
basically says this, that somewheres are rooted
5:50
locally and find their identity through local
5:55
belonging, whereas anywheres are mobile. and
5:59
find their identity mainly through achievement.
6:03
Now, you can't push that too far. Matthew's already
6:05
touched on that. Another reason you can't push
6:08
it too far is thinking about diaspora communities
6:11
who have a strong sense of place locally, but
6:15
also a sense of place and connection with people
6:19
who are in another place. See, that's an example
6:21
of where this idea breaks down. But our experience
6:25
is that some communities have this hyper local
6:29
focus. So a friend of mine, Chris Rogers, is
6:32
over in East London. He says he would identify
6:35
himself as working class as a pastor. And he
6:39
says that the way that he thinks about his own
6:41
way of moving through the world is reputation
6:44
earned through reciprocity for the sake of reliability.
6:49
Reputation. So he's trying to. maintain his social
6:54
status with those around him and he does that
6:57
through reciprocity can be given take of interacting
7:00
with people locally and he does that because
7:04
he's learned over time that when the gas meter
7:07
gets to zero or you need money to buy some chips
7:11
it's people who are local who will be able to
7:14
help you out and so actually his life is focused
7:18
on being local reputation with his close colleagues
7:22
through reciprocity, what they do for one another,
7:25
for the sake of reliability. When things go wrong,
7:28
there's someone who can help you. And so we want
7:31
to move to a time of discussion. And the first
7:34
question is, how do we address this kind of lack
7:40
of rootedness that some of our congregations
7:43
can have in church life? Yeah. I think I want
7:47
to start off with just some pastoral honesty.
7:49
I think that the hyper -local focus of estates
7:54
and being there, rooting in a community, and
7:58
the difficulty that sometimes, even if you're
8:03
a little bit further away from those communities,
8:05
that can have the impact that can have on church
8:09
life and family life. So real life, I suppose,
8:13
example for us at the church that... an elder
8:17
out in Vauxhall. We had a local Eritrean family.
8:22
We had seen them wonderfully. Yeah, the mum comes
8:26
to faith, then the dad comes to faith. They're
8:29
three boys. They all live in a one bedroom flat.
8:32
It was a tight squeeze. And eventually they were
8:35
able to find another flat with a little bit more
8:38
space. It was only a mile and a half away from
8:42
where we are in Vauxhall. But that mile and a
8:45
half has just created some difficulties in them
8:49
just being involved in everyday life. Yeah, in
8:52
the church family, in all honesty, they probably
8:55
feel a little bit more separate from the church.
8:57
family and i think it's just that honesty of
9:00
understanding how much sort of the the local
9:03
focus and just being in every everyday life and
9:08
just bumping into people when you're going to
9:09
test goes does make a big difference and it and
9:12
it helps us i suppose when we think about church
9:14
life not just speak the gospel but live out the
9:18
gospel in the way that you're under the gaze
9:20
of yeah yeah watching eyes as you can in a local
9:23
focus okay so there's something about being local,
9:27
helping us to disciple one another. And I think
9:31
of a woman who we all know who came to faith
9:35
recently. I call her Rebecca. She was in prison
9:38
for a long time through the evangelistic work
9:42
that happened in that prison. She became a Christian.
9:45
She's out now. And her sense was, speaking to
9:48
her over lunch recently, was that I need, once
9:54
a week is not enough. That was her phrase, once
9:57
a week is not enough, by which she meant going
9:59
to a Bible study once a week for some kind of
10:02
discipleship wasn't enough to keep her going
10:04
and to keep her from falling back into the old
10:07
patterns that she had escaped from being liberated
10:11
from in Christ. And I know you've got a story
10:14
off the back of that, Megan. Yeah, so I have
10:17
a friend who was saved when he was in prison.
10:20
And whilst he was in prison, he was having that
10:23
kind of daily faith. support journey. There were
10:28
various prison ministries going into prison,
10:31
conducting Bible studies and small groups and
10:34
the Sunday service. He was having a Bible study
10:39
with other prisoners on his wing and it was a
10:41
daily input every day. And he was reading the
10:47
Bible avidly. He wanted to get plugged into the
10:51
church as soon as he came out. But what he found
10:54
was he had this picture of the early church in
10:57
the book of Acts, and he thought that it would
10:59
be a replication of what he had experienced in
11:03
prison. And when he came out, he just didn't
11:05
find that. And it really, yeah, it really disappointed
11:08
him. OK, and I remember having a conversation
11:12
with Matthew in the lead up to this, and he mentioned.
11:16
The wisdom that you see in morning and evening
11:19
prayer within the Anglican life of the church,
11:23
a rooted daily expression of the gospel that
11:29
people can come to, whether they can even read
11:31
or not, that is there for people. That's not
11:34
necessarily the model for everyone, but it's
11:36
just striking that there's a sense in which that
11:38
meets a need that actually is sometimes there.
11:42
Let's move on to... the practical impact that
11:46
this can have in shaping church life. I know
11:50
that midweek groups can work differently in this
11:55
kind of context, Kev. Yeah, and I think when
11:57
we use that language of midweek groups, we're
11:59
not talking just about Bible study. I suppose
12:01
that the wider ministries that some of our churches
12:04
will be able to offer as a way of... bridging
12:09
the gap just between the only thing we can invite
12:12
someone to is a Sunday service. And some of these
12:13
ministries that give the opportunity for people
12:15
to start building relationships with Christians
12:18
in their local community and sort of feeds off
12:22
the back of what Megan's saying is they need
12:23
more than just, yeah, a meeting, one meeting
12:27
a week. I suppose one of the things that we've
12:31
identified is that... There is the danger, though,
12:35
of people that are around in the week being able
12:38
to be involved in these midweek ministries, as
12:42
opposed to then some people that can, because
12:45
of work or family commitments, only be there
12:47
on a Sunday or maybe make one midweek meeting
12:50
a week in the evening. And so you end up... Sometimes
12:54
with the danger of two different congregations,
12:57
you've got the people that feel happy and more
13:00
comfortable in a midweek setting in some of the
13:04
outreach events that we'll be doing. And then
13:06
they come to church on a Sunday and then they
13:08
just see this completely new group of people
13:10
that they just have limited interaction with.
13:14
One lady said to us about one of the midweek
13:19
ministries that we run on a Friday. church for
13:23
me with me and sort of thinking that's an aspect
13:26
of what it means to belong to church but it's
13:28
not it's not sort of the whole sort of picture
13:31
it's not that when you come on a friday it's
13:33
not the whole gather church um yeah on a on a
13:36
sunday and it's we're just trying to work out
13:39
what that looks like for us in our context and
13:41
it's because the cultural gap is smaller one
13:43
of the reasons is the cultural gap is smaller
13:45
coming to that session on friday morning, afternoon
13:49
even. Lunch. Lunchtime. Coming to that session
13:53
feels like a smaller cultural leap than coming
13:57
even on a Sunday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I suppose
14:00
in one sense, there will be maybe more people
14:03
from a similar context because it's, again, more
14:07
hyper -local focused, people that are there midweek.
14:10
I suppose there is a similarity, as it were,
14:14
for quite a lot of the people that will be coming
14:16
along. Okay. Megan, you wanted to say something
14:20
about the flip side of this, how we draw people
14:23
in as a first step. Yeah, I think maybe not looking
14:27
at it as a negative that they are viewing that
14:30
as church, but viewing it more as it is a step
14:34
towards church. And that it can be an opportunity
14:38
to actually broaden that network of support,
14:42
a network of contacts that they have through
14:44
that first initial step of a group like that,
14:48
introducing them to more people from the wider
14:51
church body so that when they do make that step
14:54
into church, it's more comfortable. Yeah, thank
14:57
you. Now, one of my colleagues made a really
15:00
interesting point as we were talking about this
15:03
in the preparation. His observation was that
15:06
in his church, which is really mixed across class
15:09
and cultural lines, that there are some people
15:11
who from a middle class background have made
15:13
a commitment to be part of that church for a
15:15
number of years. And then after a period of time,
15:18
feel a real sense of emotional struggle. And
15:23
it's partly because. They feel like their closest
15:27
friends who are most like them have moved away
15:30
and they then feel a sense of loss from that.
15:35
And my colleague's observation was that this
15:39
raises the issue of us, if you're from a middle
15:43
class background, administering in an environment
15:46
where it's very cross -cultural, where maybe
15:48
reaching into a different kind of class and counting
15:51
the cost of that. counting the cost of that they're
15:53
recognizing that actually that's going to be
15:56
painful and that sometimes his observation is
15:58
that people haven't really counted the cost of
16:01
what that will mean long term to make that step,
16:05
to do that. And it raises, I guess, two questions.
16:07
You know, how do we prepare people to do that
16:09
if that's our context? But secondly, how do we
16:12
deepen relationships with the people who we are
16:15
ministering to? The reality is those people who
16:17
are in our churches should be our family. So
16:19
how do we deepen those relationships so it doesn't
16:22
feel such a wrench, such a loss? What do you
16:26
say to that, Megan? Yeah, I intend a... Central
16:30
London Church is a gathered church and most of
16:33
us travel in to church, which I think is quite
16:37
a common thing for Central London churches now.
16:40
And so I've been really thinking with the leaders
16:45
about what our small groups look like and who's
16:48
attending them, who's attending which groups,
16:51
because we've got a number of groups. Some which
16:54
meet in people's houses, some which meet online,
16:57
some are a hybrid, some meet utilizing this church
17:00
building and thinking about who's going to those
17:04
groups. What the makeup of those groups are and
17:07
what makes some of those groups more or less
17:10
accessible to people who live in social housing
17:13
or in more from a more vulnerable, marginalized
17:16
background. So we were looking at some of the
17:20
groups have a much more traditional kind of structure.
17:24
So a short time of introduction, catch up. followed
17:29
by quite a formal Bible study looking at a set
17:33
of questions that come from the text that links
17:38
to the sermon from the Sunday. And those groups
17:42
don't tend to be very diverse in their makeup.
17:46
The pastor has actually pioneered a new kind
17:50
of model from his small group. So it's much more
17:54
focused on connection. So he's flipped that.
17:58
that structure on its head really. So they meet
18:01
and the focus is on connection. So that instead
18:05
of having a 10 -minute quick catch -up, the bulk
18:09
of the small group is focused on that catch -up.
18:13
So they eat together, but it's a two -course
18:16
meal. And between the two courses, they would
18:19
then share communion. They would then maybe share
18:22
a proverb or a psalm. engaged together in conversation
18:28
about that over dessert and then they'd finish
18:31
with prayer for each other um and then we have
18:35
another quite specific small group that has taken
18:39
a bit of both and it's really interesting because
18:43
the makeup of that group is um like it's completely
18:47
the people who come from social housing and vulnerable
18:51
marginalized backgrounds um and so they actually
18:55
have have made the decision to meet twice a week
18:58
rather than just once a week and the first meet
19:01
is after the sermon on a Sunday where they just
19:04
meet to connect and then the midweek group they
19:09
follow on from that connection but they also
19:13
then look together at scripture and what they
19:16
found is that the people in that group are very
19:19
comfortable to all share together because they
19:22
all come from very similar backgrounds there's
19:24
no kind of their morals filled that group and
19:29
actually some of the people that have connected
19:32
with church but then might not be attending on
19:35
a regular basis they are attending that small
19:38
group both times a week and they're connecting
19:42
with each other outside of that group as well
19:45
so it shows that that model is really working
19:48
for those people. Fantastic okay I think I'm
19:51
going to move us on to scenario two. And the
19:56
power is in my hand. Okay, let's go. So, the
20:03
WhatsApp group. Yeah, I've been reading it. Don't
20:07
think it's all that bad. I mean, yeah, it's a
20:09
little bit messy. But at least he's saying what
20:11
he feels rather than just letting it fester.
20:13
But he said it to 60 people. I know. Let's be
20:18
honest. People tiptoe around conflict for years
20:20
in churches. He's hurt. And he's naming it. If
20:25
we clamp down now, we're teaching him honesty
20:27
just gets punished around here. Public naming
20:31
isn't the same as honesty, though. It's already
20:34
landed on people who had nothing to do with it.
20:38
I've had two messages this morning from people
20:40
who don't even know how this started. They're
20:44
just caught in it now. I'm worried that if we
20:47
let this run, we multiply the damage. Or... We
20:52
let it breathe. Trust the spirit can work for
20:55
an open conversation. Let's be honest, people
20:57
have seen worse on a WhatsApp group. But this
21:00
isn't banter that got out of hand. Someone's
21:02
been named. And the people reading it, they didn't
21:06
sign up to be an audience for this. Some conversations
21:09
need walls, not a stage. Agency matters, yeah?
21:15
But so does pastoral responsibility. If we don't
21:19
step in, we're effectively saying that... Going
21:22
public on the group is an acceptable way to handle
21:25
being hurt. Okay, what we're dealing here with
21:31
is a different scenario. It's differences in
21:34
communication style that are playing out among
21:37
the leaders who are having a conversation here,
21:39
but also playing out amongst the congregation
21:41
online. And how do we manage that? Now, of course,
21:45
you don't know all the details of the scenario,
21:47
but we're thinking about the communication and
21:50
how that... works out um there's an interesting
21:53
observation from uh one of our lcms that people
21:57
who often are pretty outspoken don't necessarily
22:01
last long in their church and i guess the question
22:05
is how do we manage that how do we navigate that
22:08
over to you kevin yeah i mean i suppose feeding
22:11
first and foremost off the of our first sort
22:13
of session or our first discussion, as we get
22:17
to know people and as we spend life with people,
22:19
we understand a little bit more about the situation
22:22
and a little bit more about their history. And
22:25
so when a scenario like this happens, the better
22:30
we know our congregants, we can sort of think,
22:33
okay, is this a hurting sheep? Is this someone
22:37
that... either intentionally or unintentionally
22:41
has been hurt by someone and this is their way
22:43
of reacting um and i think as we understand are
22:48
they are they a hurting sheep it helps us then
22:50
think okay How are we then going to deal with
22:53
this situation? Are we going to cut down on this?
22:56
Are we going to deal with patience with this
22:59
particular individual? Does it mean a one -on
23:04
-one conversation with this person? So I think
23:08
understanding the individual. yeah what they're
23:12
going through it might be something that they're
23:13
just going through at that particular point in
23:15
their life that um yeah this is a reaction to
23:19
yeah yeah a situation that is in one sense is
23:22
not a normal reaction for them so i think i think
23:24
yeah yeah are they are they wondering um or are
23:27
they hurting sorry another one is then is is
23:30
what they are communicating is this Is this sinful
23:35
in what they're communicating? Or is this heretical
23:39
in what they're communicating? And through that,
23:43
are they then going to damage the wider church
23:45
family? I think understanding that, are they
23:48
hurting or are they wandering, helps us then
23:51
think, how are we going to deal with this situation?
23:57
I've got a lovely church member who came to faith
24:02
later on in her life. And she has this wonderful
24:06
way of gossiping the gospel. And it's lovely
24:09
to see. But particularly in a state context,
24:13
gossip and talk and backstabbing is a big problem
24:18
as well. And so in this scenario, is this moaning
24:24
going on? Or is there wider gossip that we need
24:27
to sort of speak into as well? And that goes
24:29
wider than a WhatsApp communication. Yeah, if
24:33
you want to know what's going on on the estate
24:35
on a Friday, go and hang around with the people
24:38
after lunch, come having a fag outside and you
24:40
just get a different picture, as it were. But
24:43
then challenging. I think then particularly when
24:46
we've got believers that are in the community,
24:50
challenging them sometimes on actually how they're
24:54
using their words, not just on WhatsApp, but
24:56
just in general. Are they gossiping in an ungodly
25:03
way about people living in the community? I think
25:07
from, again, our experience in WhatsApp, I love
25:11
spending time with people. I love seeing people
25:14
face to face. WhatsApp, if I could do away with
25:19
it, would be my ideal. But I understand there
25:23
are blessings to it as well. So then what guidance
25:27
can we put on in our groups? And so, again, how
25:32
we've worked that out in some of our groups is
25:35
that there are limits on who can. yeah who who
25:39
can sort of put a message on the group um yeah
25:42
so on the on the members group um not just limited
25:45
to the elders but the elders would yeah would
25:47
put most of the messages on the on the members
25:50
group as opposed to our prayer channel on whatsapp
25:53
and anyone can feed into that you with me so
25:55
so helping provide some parameters to how this
25:59
communication can work well. And I think, as
26:04
I said, and you alluded to this earlier on, Jason,
26:08
is that I think people's experience of, particularly
26:12
when they vent quite publicly, sometimes their
26:16
experience, even in church context, is that they've
26:19
been told, you can't talk like that around here.
26:25
And so just not just coming down with the fun
26:32
police, as it were. Do you know what I mean?
26:33
How do we help people in the discipleship sort
26:38
of process of being a believer and working in
26:40
this area of communication rather than just closing
26:43
them down? And we've had one particular lady
26:45
that has vented in the past, but we haven't just
26:51
shunned her. And that's enabled her just to...
26:54
stick around just a little bit more and be involved
26:57
more in your church life and that's yeah i think
26:59
that i think that's that's a learning experience
27:01
for her as well not just to be ostracized for
27:04
speaking her mind megan you had an example of
27:08
someone who regularly disconnected and reconnected
27:13
yeah um thinking of somebody at my church who
27:16
will quite routinely um take offense and when
27:21
he takes offense he will storm literally storm
27:23
out He's actually a member of that particular
27:27
life group that meets twice a week. And so he
27:30
might disappear from church services for a while,
27:34
but he will stay connected with that small group.
27:37
And it just shows to me the importance of those
27:40
relationships and also for us to have grace for
27:44
each other. In those situations when that does
27:47
happen, there is a conversation between him and
27:51
the church, you know, one of the church leaders
27:53
will reach out and connect. And it's also recognizing
27:56
through those conversations what has triggered
28:01
that response. You know, it's very often something
28:04
that was said in a sermon unintentionally that
28:07
has caused offense. And so working through that
28:10
together is a real learning point for both parties.
28:15
And tell us just something of your own story
28:17
and how about your own voice you feel has changed
28:20
and been heard more over time. Yeah, so I started
28:24
working for LCM a couple of years ago. And through
28:28
that work, I was working at my church one day
28:32
a week. And through that, I was able to have
28:35
much more of a voice into church life. But what
28:40
it really showed me is actually before I'd been
28:43
behind the scenes, I was very critical and I
28:46
would notice things on the surface that I would
28:49
take offence at and I would not see reasons for
28:53
decisions. And yeah, being behind the scenes
28:57
and working more closely with the pastors. Actually
29:01
building a relationship with them away from Sunday
29:05
service really helped me to tackle my own prejudices
29:09
and my own assumptions about things. And so it's
29:14
helped us both, me to have a voice, but also
29:18
me to recognise areas where I needed to grow.
29:22
Yeah, so taking that opportunity for kind of
29:24
everyday discipleship and everyday connection
29:26
with those in our congregations can really help.
29:30
Thank you, Megan. And so we've been thinking
29:32
about the relationship communication between
29:35
congregation members and leadership. Now, just
29:40
to flip between leaders, this is a dialogue where
29:44
we're hearing leaders communicate with one another
29:46
and leaders who are from different backgrounds.
29:49
So how can we deal with those different styles
29:52
of communication better? Yeah. And I say this
29:56
with some of our fellow elders in the room. And
29:58
so I'm thankful that, yeah, over the years, as
30:02
we've got to know each other, we've got to understand
30:04
our communication styles and how we deal differently.
30:10
But also the beauty of those working together.
30:13
Are you with me? So and I think what I mean,
30:17
one of I'm a conflict avoider by nature. And
30:21
so when. when communication has been hard sometimes
30:24
within our elders meetings, for example. One
30:28
of my fellow elders now understands that if I'm,
30:32
yeah, just feeling a little bit hurt or what,
30:35
I would just stop communicating. I just, yeah,
30:38
I just want to talk. And over the years that
30:41
we've worked together, he's been able to pick
30:44
up on that. And then outside of the meeting,
30:46
just have opportunity to, yeah, to chew over
30:49
that. But that takes time. Yeah, that does take
30:54
time. I think as eldership grows, as we think
30:57
about crossing classes and crossing culture,
31:01
we want to pray that God raises up more leaders
31:06
from diverse cultural backgrounds. And that will
31:09
take time to learn different communication styles.
31:12
And I think one of the other important things
31:15
I would say is that make sure that the only time
31:19
that... that you're communicating with your fellow
31:23
elders, your fellow church leaders is not just
31:25
in meetings, do life together. So yeah, I've
31:30
enjoyed football matches with some of our elders.
31:33
We have an elders day away, once a year, but
31:38
the night before we go away, we go to a different
31:41
church to be fed by God's word. And then we just
31:44
go out and we hang out together. And I think,
31:47
yeah, just try and be... Not try and be friends.
31:50
You should be friends. But if we're going to
31:55
model in one sense, yeah, fellowship and friendship
31:59
in community, let's model that at a leadership
32:02
level as well. And that takes intentionality.
32:04
You say it should be the case. It takes intentionality,
32:07
planning, time for a lot of us. I know Adrian
32:10
Reynolds mentioned recently in a podcast, Five
32:12
Voices. It's not a resource that I've used, fivevoices
32:15
.com, but it's a way of... analyzing different
32:19
ways that people in your team speak sort of sort
32:23
of free assessment sort of thing it's not particularly
32:27
tuned to class but it is just a way of thinking
32:29
when I hear someone say these kinds of things
32:32
where do they tend to be coming from And that
32:35
can be a helpful thing for us to think about.
32:38
Again, there's some little tips in this book
32:41
as well that I'm flagging. I'm under orders,
32:43
so I'm doing that. But we are now going to go
32:47
to our final little vignette. When you let the
33:02
whole counsel of God, his whole story, not just
33:05
a verse here or there, shape your imagination,
33:08
you begin to see that Paul isn't merely addressing
33:11
behavior. He's re -narrating what it means to
33:15
be human in Christ, calling us out of the thin
33:19
stories of this age and into a spirit -breathed
33:23
life that only finds coherence under the lordship
33:25
of Jesus. For a moment, the sermon reminds Sarah
33:29
of something else entirely. Make sure you take
33:33
the full course of antibiotics, not just until
33:36
the symptoms die down. In my experience, you
33:39
should feel things resolving in a few days. When
33:42
the gospel is allowed to tell us who we are,
33:45
fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of
33:47
our creator. But Sarah's mind is elsewhere. Okay,
33:52
but what about Tuesday? There's a damp patch
33:57
on my ceiling that hasn't dried in two weeks.
34:00
And my supervisor said to me, next time I'm late,
34:03
he won't be so understanding. On my commute this
34:09
week, I was thinking about how blessed I am to
34:12
know Jesus and to walk with him day by day. I
34:17
just needed something to hold on to today, something
34:19
to get me through the week. She tries to stay
34:22
with it. When scripture retrains our imagination,
34:26
then we see more clearly the way God sees the
34:29
world. I don't think he can see me. And if he
34:35
can't, maybe God can't either. They say home
34:40
groups help, but if this is the kind of language
34:42
we use, I'll just be the one who doesn't follow.
34:45
And that's before I notice their kitchen. One
34:49
more story about house purchases. Never pay the
34:52
asking price. I thought I was coming to church,
34:57
but... Feels like I walked into a school. Okay.
35:12
Unspoken assumptions about teaching style and
35:16
content can make some people feel alienated.
35:20
In using this example, I want to be clear again,
35:23
we're not trying to make a moral judgment. There
35:26
are many different... fitting styles of teaching.
35:29
The question is always, who is our audience?
35:32
Who do we want to reach? Who's in front of us?
35:36
And we just want to remember that it's possible
35:39
to communicate deep, complex truths in ways that
35:45
aren't diluted, but are still accessible. Paul
35:49
said in my message and preaching, we're not with
35:51
wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration
35:53
of the Spirit's power. J .C. Ryle said, unless
35:56
you are simple in your sermons, you will never
35:59
be understood. And unless you are understood,
36:02
you cannot do good to those who hear you. So
36:05
this is what we're trying to dig into in this
36:08
section. So question, Megan, how have your church
36:13
been helping to maximize the understanding and
36:17
connection that goes on in sermons? Yeah, so
36:20
quite recently, my church leaders have started
36:24
to invite feedback after the sermons. So alongside
36:29
the Bibles, they'll put out a paper with some
36:32
reflection questions on them, and then they'll
36:34
collect them again at the end of the sermons.
36:36
And it gives them a chance to really evaluate
36:38
how people in the church body are really connecting
36:42
or not connecting with the sermons. And it's
36:46
enabled them to really... take on board that
36:49
feedback and be responsive to it. And yeah, I'm
36:53
just really impressed by that, by their humility
36:56
in doing that. Yeah, another LCM has said recently
37:01
in our church, we've got Jan who left school
37:04
when she was 13 and Jim, who's a director at
37:06
Golden Sacks. If both leave encouraged and convicted,
37:09
it's a world -class sermon. So there's something
37:11
to aim for. Kev, one thing that... You found
37:16
helpful is a particular tool that you've come
37:19
across tell us about that Yeah, so some of you
37:22
will have heard of an American, Brian Chappell.
37:24
He has something called the fallen condition
37:26
focus when it comes to our preaching. And what
37:29
it helps us do when we're preparing sermons is
37:33
thinking not just, okay, what does this teach
37:35
me intellectually a truth about God, but how
37:37
does this affect my heart? And because we are
37:41
all fallen and we live in a fallen world, it
37:44
helps us get under the skin. In one sense, the
37:50
world class sermon, if we ever going to preach
37:52
one of those. But it helps us think, what is
37:55
universally true about us as fallen people that
38:00
this particular passage of scripture can speak
38:02
to? So then that helps fuel our application.
38:06
It helps fuel our illustrations, as it were.
38:11
One of the things, one of the big things in those
38:15
living on council states is. You don't have to
38:18
teach them that God exists. They're quite theistic
38:22
sort of cultures. So you're not trying to, in
38:26
one sense, argue from a head nod, but actually
38:29
what difference is this part of scripture going
38:32
to make in my life when I leave church on Sunday
38:36
afternoon after we've had lunch? What difference
38:38
is this going to make for me on Monday morning
38:40
when I'm trying to wrestle with kids and get
38:42
them to school? Yeah, whatever it might be. Trying
38:46
to think, how does this speak to our hearts?
38:48
Thank you. And when we talk about fallen condition
38:50
focus, we're not discounting the fact that actually
38:54
people are also sufferers. It's not that everything
38:59
in our lives is either saintly or sinful. We
39:02
recognize that, and so does Brian Chappell. But
39:05
just to make that point, that word fallen can
39:07
take us down a route that isn't quite where he's
39:10
going. We have more to say on this, but... we
39:14
need to allow time for questions. I think we've
39:17
reached our cutoff. And so I'm going to draw
39:21
stumps there and give you a chance to respond
39:25
to some of what we've said. We're happy to talk
39:29
more, but it'd be great to give you a chance
39:31
to respond to what you've heard.