Latest / Legally Brunette / Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part - Michael Peterson & The Staircase

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Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part - Michael Peterson & The Staircase · Legally Brunette

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys. Welcome to Till Death Do Us Part. I'll
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: be your host today, Emily Simpson and... Shane.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Today, we are going to talk about this case that
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: is known by the name The Staircase. And I have
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: had several people reach out and send me DMs and say,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: are you going to talk about The Staircase? Are you
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: going to talk about Michael Peterson? So today, we are
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: going to talk about this case. To me, this is
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: a fascinating case because it's kind of like You know,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: when we talk about Karen Reed and you don't actually
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: really know, like you'll never really know what happened. It's
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: one of those cases where you can debate it all
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: day long. You can discuss it. You can talk about
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the evidence. But do we really actually know what happened
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: that night?
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: No.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Nope.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: In the early hours of December 9th, 2001, a 911
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: dispatcher takes a frantic call from one of North Carolina's
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: most recognizable men. Michael Peterson is a decorated veteran and
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: acclaimed novelist and an outspoken newspaper columnist who made his
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: share of enemies. His wife, Kathleen, is lying at the
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: bottom of the back staircase of their sprawling home, and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: she is not breathing. He says that she fell. But
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the blood tells a different story. There's too much of it,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: spread too far, and some of it has already dried.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Investigators look closer and the walls of the Peterson home
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: begin to give up its secrets. There's hidden emails, mounting debts,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: and a double life Michael never meant anyone to see.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Then comes the question that changes everything. 16 years earlier,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: in a different country, another woman who was close to
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Michael Peterson was also found dead at the bottom of
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: a staircase. Is this a coincidence or is this a pattern?
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: What follows is one of the longest, strangest legal sagas
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: in American history. It involves disputed science, a missing fireplace tool,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: a theory involving an owl that sounds absurd until you
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: hear it, and a camera crew that captures every moment. Today,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: we are climbing the staircase. All right.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I'm going to bank on... What were my options? Coincidence
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: or a pattern? Yeah. Pattern.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Pattern.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Guilty. Just guessing. All right. Now let's go with
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: the facts and we'll see. All right.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Let's go back into the background of Michael so we
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: know a little bit more about Michael Peterson. He was
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: born on October 23rd of 1943 in Nashville, Tennessee, and
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: he later served as a Marine officer in Vietnam and
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: becomes a novelist. His well-known books include The Immortal Dragon
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: and A Time of War. I do believe that his book,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: A Time of War, was actually on the New York
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Times bestseller list. So I do think he was pretty
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: successful as a fiction writer and that he made some
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: significant amounts of money with writing books. He also ran
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: for mayor. He lives in Durham, North Carolina.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Say that again.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Mayor. He ran for mayor.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Mayor. Mayor. Not mayor. Mayor. Mayor. Mayor.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Mayor. Anyway, when he was running for that title, he
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: claimed that he had, I think he did get a
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Purple Heart maybe, but he did have some military accolades,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: but he also embellished and said that he had gotten
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: two Purple Hearts or something, and that was not true.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Did he have one?
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think he claimed that he
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: got hurt, like his leg got hurt, and he got
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: some kind of Purple Heart, but really later it was
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: It was found out that he just got in a
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: wreck when he was overseas and he was in the military.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: And that's why he got hurt. It wasn't like in
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the line of duty. So he embellished. Early in the 1980s,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Peterson and his first wife, Patricia, have sons, Clayton and Todd,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: and they live in Germany. And they're in Germany because
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: he's in the military. They had a close friendship with
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: some neighbors, and that was Elizabeth Ratliff. And she had
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: a husband named George who was an air force officer. Um,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: she was a school teacher. And so this is in Germany. Okay.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Are you following along?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I am following along.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: So Michael's married to his first wife, Patty. They have
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: two sons together, Clayton and Todd. They're living in Germany
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: because he's in the military and they are very close
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: to this other couple named Elizabeth Ratliff and her husband, George.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: George dies in a military mission in 1983. So then
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth has left with two daughters named Martha and Margaret. Okay.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: And they all are very close. And this is in Germany. Okay.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: All right. So while they're in Germany, this is in
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: November of 1985, and this is something that's going to
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: come up again later, but I'm just going to bring
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: it up now. So Elizabeth Ratliff is found dead at
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: the bottom of her staircase. This is in 1985. Okay.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: And it is believed that Michael Peterson was the last
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: person to see her alive because after her husband died,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: he spent a lot of time with her. He claims
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: that their relationship was platonic, that there was never anything
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: going on.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Like she was a widow. Yeah. Of his friend, and
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: they're just caring for her like normal.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: Staying in contact.
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  Speaker 1: So her body was found the next morning, but it
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: was well known, I guess, that the last person to
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: see her alive would have been Michael Peterson.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Did you say it already? How long was her death
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: after her husband's?
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  Speaker 1: I don't think it was very long after. Well, two
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: years after. Her husband died in a military mission in 1983.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Then Elizabeth Ratliff is found in 1985 dead at the
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: bottom of her staircase. German and U.S. Army authorities rule
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: it a natural death. This is interesting. You have to
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: remember that they rule a natural death. There's no investigation done.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: There's no crime scene photos. They just claim that she
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: had some brain hemorrhage linked to a blood clotting disorder,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: which made her fall down and she fell down the stairs.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, they don't even say the falling down. So the
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: reason she fell down the stairs was a medical issue.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: That's what they're claiming.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And it was open shut. Right. No photos of the
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: crime scene. No autopsy. Just, oh, she had a blood
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: clotting disorder. She must have had a brain hemorrhage. She
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: fell down the stairs. She's dead. And everybody moves on. Okay.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: She had two daughters, Margaret and Martha. I believe that...
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know if in her will she left the
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: children to Michael Peterson and his wife, Patty, or if
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: they just.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: But they took them on.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: But they take on the two daughters. Okay. Because the
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: daughters have no parents now, right? Right. The husband is
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: dead in a military training type of situation. And Elizabeth
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: died at the bottom of a staircase. Also, by the way,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: she died at the bottom of the staircase, but there
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: was a lot of blood. Because there's a neighbor that
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: came over to help clean it. And there was blood
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: splatter everywhere. There was a huge pool of blood. There's
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: just all this blood in the stairway.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: All right. So Boston PD and the German PD are
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: not places you want to be murdered. Okay.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: All right, then we get to the late 1980s, early 1990s.
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  Speaker 1: Peterson divorces Patricia and moves to Durham, North Carolina. This
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: is where he meets Kathleen. She was a Nortel executive
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and she has a daughter named Caitlin. They marry in
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: 1997 and they blend their families in a large house
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: located at 1810 North cedar street when i was watching
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: the documentary on this i would love to be able
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: to add this home also to the legally brunette what
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: to to if we ever go on a tour on
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: a field trip it is a huge sprawling like 10
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: 000 square foot massive home oh okay it's beautiful with
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: grounds and.
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  Speaker 2: A pool and you know beautiful staircase.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Well this was a back staircase where she dies i
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: think there's more than one staircase in this house So
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Michael has his two sons with his first wife, Todd
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  Speaker 1: and Clayton. Yeah. Then he has the two adopted daughters
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: from the couple in Germany. So he has Martha and Margaret.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Then he marries Kathleen, who has a daughter named Caitlin.
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  Speaker 1: So there's five kids, and they all live in this
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: big house in Durham, North Carolina. As a newspaper columnist,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Peterson often criticizes the Durham police and the district attorney.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: He runs for mayor.
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  Speaker 2: Mayor.
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  Speaker 1: In 1999 and loses after questions arise about his military record.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Because I talked about earlier about how he embellished things
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: that were not true. All right. Let's get to the
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: evening of December 9th of 2001. This is when his wife, Kathleen,
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  Speaker 1: is found dead at the bottom of a staircase.
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  Speaker 2: I always like to picture like when I hear these dates,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: like where was I?
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Where were you in 2001? Where were you?
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  Speaker 2: 2001. End of 2001. End of 01.
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  Speaker 1: 2001. I was teaching because I went to law school
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  Speaker 1: in 2002. So 2001 would have been my last year
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: teaching high school. So I would have been teaching high school.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: I would have been preparing to start law school that
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: following fall.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: You were accepted and going into law school?
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's where I was. Where were you?
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: I don't remember. I'm just kidding. I was in law school.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: First year of law school.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: First year of law school. All right.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: No, I take that back. Second year.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, second year of law school. All right. So this
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: evening of December 9th, 2001, Michael Peterson claims that he
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and Kathleen had had dinner and had some drinks. I
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: guess they make dinner together every night and they have wine.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Sounds nice. And then they had gone outside and sat
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: by their pool. And then he claims that she left
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: the pool because she wanted to go catch up on
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: some work or something and that he stayed at the
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: pool with the dogs.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Is this pool not their pool? It's like the neighborhood
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: pool or something?
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: No, they have a sprawling estate.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's right. Okay, so it's on their property.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: It's on their property, yes. And so he claims that
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: it was a nice night and that they'd had dinner
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: and some water. and that they were sitting by the
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: pool and that he stays by the pool and the
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: dogs stay outside with him. And then she goes in
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  Speaker 1: cause she's going to like get on the computer and
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: do some work or something. She's an executive. She works
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: for Nortel. She's basically supporting the family because I don't
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: think he has, he hasn't written a book. I don't
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: think he has any income coming in. He's a newspaper columnist.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Where did this big house come from then?
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I believe he bought the house with probably proceeds
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: from his one successful book. But then I don't think
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: he has any other income coming in because they're in
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: debt at this point. They're in about $ 143, 000 in credit
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: card debt.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: And she's the only one bringing in a steady income.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: And they have a very big blended family of five
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: kids that they're supporting that are needing to go to college.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: And they have this huge team.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: And he thought being a mayor would help? You don't
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: get paid much as a mayor.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: What city is this? Durham, North Carolina. Oh, yeah. Well,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I don't think he wants to work. That's the way
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: I look at him. Because he writes a column for
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: a newspaper. And he wants to be mayor. Mayor.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Mayor.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: And so I think he's perfectly content with Kathleen because
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: she's an executive.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I'd be thoroughly content married to an executive that does everything.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: And I live in a 10,000 square foot home and
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I just sit at the pool with the dogs.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's your life right now.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: I don't sit at the pool with the dogs.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: No, but we're building a pool and it'll be done soon.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: All right, so. That evening, Peterson then leaves the pool.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: He goes into the house and he finds Kathleen dead
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: at the bottom of the back staircase. In his 911 call,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: he says that she fell. He tells police that she
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: had fallen after drinking alcohol and taking a Valium while
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: he was outside by the pool. The scene has a
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: large amount of blood. First of all, I have seen
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: photos and video of this scene. I cannot fathom... that
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: someone takes a fall down staircase. I get it. Like
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: it's a wooden staircase. She could have tripped or fallen
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: or whatever. And she goes down the staircase. I can't
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: imagine the amount of blood. There's so much blood. There
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: is blood. There are pools of blood on the ground.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: There is blood all over the walls. There's blood on
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: the ceiling, nine foot ceiling. There's blood splatter on the ceiling.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Then how did, what happened? No, I mean like, did
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: he beat her? With a blunt object and blood got everywhere.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Then he threw her down the stairs.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Well, that's what we're going to talk about. But as
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: so far where we're at in the story right now
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: is that he found her at the bottom of the stairs.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: He called 911. He claims that she fell down the
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: stairs and that's where we're at.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: The autopsy, however, finds multiple deep lacerations on the back
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: of Kathleen's head and the medical examiner concludes that she
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: was beaten. All right. So he, the medical examiner, They
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: shave her head, right? She has seven, seven large lacerations
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: on the back of her head.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Seven. Now, we'll talk about this later because we'll get
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: into more detail about it. But when they go back
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: and they do a medical exam on the first woman
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: who fell down the stairs that was with Michael Peterson.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. She was the mistress. Yeah.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: She wasn't his mistress.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Well, we don't know that. We don't know that. I'm suspicious.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Okay. As far as we know, she was the neighbor
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: and they were close and he was at her house.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Platonic.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Platonic. Right. They end up doing an autopsy on her
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: after the fact because they exhumed the body. What kind of.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Job is that? How do you get the job of
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: exhuming bodies?
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I assume they just hire someone that owns a bobcat.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I don't think someone just exclusively exudes bodies. I don't
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of work out there for that.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: They probably just.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Went through, you know, they Googled the bobcat.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: They're probably people that dig graves and then they get
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: called like, okay, now we have to reverse.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: They're a reverse grave digger. Yeah.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Not a job I would want to apply for.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Right. So because of the report from the medical examiner
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: who says that this was homicide because there's seven large
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: lacerations on the back of her head, the police end
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: up arresting him and he is indicted for first degree
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: murder and then released on bond. Prosecutors claim that the
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: motive or the reason that he became upset that night
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: and there was some kind of confrontation is because they
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: obtained a search warrant. And they search his house. And
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: when they're searching the house, they obviously confiscate his computer
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: and things. And they find on his computer a lot
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: of gay porn and also a lot of detailed emails
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: with a gay prostitute that he was arranging to have
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: a meeting with. And then I believe they found other
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: messages with other gay prostitutes that he had maybe previously
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: met with. So he clearly was leading some type of
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: secret life.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Why did he get married? And bring on all these
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: kids and stuff.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I think because.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Why wouldn't he just pursue his own lifestyle?
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Because I think he's bisexual. I think maybe he enjoys
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that part of the life where he does enjoy being married.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: So that's just another part of his life. It's not
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: like the real part of life that he wants to live.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: You're saying it might just be a side thing that
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: he does.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of people like both. And then,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: so that was his way of being married to Kathleen
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: and having children and being, I think he was a
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: good dad. All his kids supported him. And when he
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: was first indicted, they all, even the stepdaughter, Caitlin, who
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: was Kathleen's daughter, initially supported him and didn't believe that
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: he had anything initially. I did say initially. It wasn't until,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: it was when the medical examiner's report came back that
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I believe that that's when she changed her mind and
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: thought that he did have something to do with it.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: So in 2002, investigators find gay pornography in emails between
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Peterson and a male escort on his computer. Prosecutors argue
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that Kathleen had found out and that this was the motive.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: The defense claims that Kathleen had already known about these hookups.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: And that she accepted it.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Obviously, that's what the defense wants to say because the
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: prosecution is claiming, they're claiming that that night that they're
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: at the pool together and they had some drinks and
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: then Kathleen goes upstairs to use the computer. And they
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: claim that she was looking at the computer and that
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: she found these emails or found evidence that he has
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: this other lifestyle that she wasn't aware of. And that
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: then there's some kind of confrontation between the two of them.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: And then that's why he ended up beating her up.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And that's why she has the lacerations on her head.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: And that's why she's dead at the bottom of the staircase.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Her sister also claims that there's no way that she
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: would have been okay with him having, you know, cheating
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: on her because she had been cheated on in her
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: first marriage. That's why she got divorced. There had been
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: infidelity and that there's no way.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: That she would have been secretive because.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: She wouldn't have tolerated it.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: North Carolina authorities exhume Elizabeth Radcliffe's body and argue that
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: she was murdered. So they exhume her body because they
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: end up finding out, and I'm not sure exactly how
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: they found out, but they end up finding out about
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: how this other woman involved in Michael Peterson's life 15
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: years earlier also died at the bottom of a staircase
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: in almost the exact same way with the exact, you know,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: with the blood everywhere. And what, I mean, honestly, like,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: what are the chances of that?
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say if the first incident
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: wasn't by staircase. right? Like, let's say, well, let's say
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: the first case was staircase. The second case wasn't. Like,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: she had, I don't know, like, she got hit by
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: a car or something, like, in their driveway. Like, he
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: accidentally ran her over. Okay.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: That could happen. Sure. I don't know.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: I was trying to think. Let's say a slip and
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: fall in a bathtub in the shower. Oh, yeah. They
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: might not have been so quick to think, hey, there's
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: a pattern here. It's suspicious.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying. I think because it's staircase, staircase.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Staircase, staircase, bottom of the staircase. Also, she had seven
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: lacerations on the back of her head. I don't know
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: if he likes the number seven or what.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Well, she could have hit the step seven times. I
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: He could have tried the intruder theory.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: But I mean, going back and exhuming the body, like
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: going backwards in time. Definitely. See, he got complacent. Oh,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: it worked the first time. Let's throw it down the
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: staircase again. Right.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Well, that was what I was wondering.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, in order to.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Get permission to exhume the body, they had to ask
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: the next of kin, which is her two daughters. Her
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: two daughters are adopted by him and they call him
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: dad and they stand by him. So that puts them
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: in a very awkward position. So I do know initially
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: when they were asked if they could exhume their mothers,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: their biological mother's body, they said no. Because I believe
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: they were supporting their dad at the time. They didn't
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: change their mind. They ended up agreeing to exhume the
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: body because they felt like by exhuming the body that
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: it would help their dad.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I would think, I was going to say, one
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: reason you would be like, okay, let's close this out. Like,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: come check out the mom's body, find out that it
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: wasn't foul play, and then we can move on.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Right. So they end up agreeing to the body being exhumed.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: So they do end up exhuming the body. And the
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: same medical examiner that did the autopsy of Kathleen, his wife,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: she does the autopsy on the other woman from 15
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: years earlier. And she finds that she had seven lacerations
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: on the top of her head and she rules it
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: a homicide.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: No kidding.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So now you've got Two women, bottom of the staircase,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: seven lacerations.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Same lacerations?
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: In the back of their heads, seven. And so now
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: the question is, can that evidence be presented at his trial?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: all right in july of 2003 the trial against michael
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: peterson begins in durham north carolina and it becomes one
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: of the longest trials in north carolina.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: History kidding why is that i don't know it.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Goes on and on they had i believe they just
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: had so many you know they had blood splatter experts
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: and you know, police detectives and family. And I mean,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: just lots of people. He could have saved us a.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Lot of trouble by pleading guilty.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: He could have.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Well, they claim, so the prosecution claims, so her sister
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: claims that she believes that she knows what the murder
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: weapon is because no one could find a murder weapon.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: There was no weapon found. So if it was blunt
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: force trauma to the back of her head, what is
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: it that he hit her with? Well, the sister claims, claims,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: and she told the investigators, that she gave her sister
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: a blow poke. Do you know what a blow poke is?
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: No, but it sounds kinky.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say that. You're like,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: can I get one of those? A blow poke is
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: like a long rod that goes with a fireplace that
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: has like a curled pointer on the end that you
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: use to, when there's a fire going, you poke at
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: the wood to move it around.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: To agitate it?
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Agitate it, yeah. Is that how you keep a fire going?
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: You agitate it?
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: So it's called a blow poke. It's a long rod,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: like a long metal rod with a pointed end that
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: you use to poke at the wood in a fireplace.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: She claims that she has one and that she gave
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: her sister an exact same one for her fireplace. But
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: then in the home, they couldn't find the blow poke.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: So then the prosecution's theory is that she found out
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: about this gay porn and he was going to meet
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: up with these male prostitutes. She became upset. She confronted
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: him about it. He grabs the blow poke and he
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: beats her with it in the back of her head.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: But the confrontation is total speculation, right? Yes.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, no one knows what happened.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: That's just a logical possibility.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: That's just the possibility based upon the search warrant.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I would think the blow poke would be like, it
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be blunt force trauma. It seems like a rod.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Like it would just be.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Well, the lacerations were long. There's like seven long lacerations.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: So the prosecution says that Kathleen was beaten with a
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: blow poke, a fireplace tool that has gone missing from
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: the house. Its central witness is State Bureau of Investigation
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: agent Dwayne Deaver, who testifies that the blood splatter shows
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: a beating. Now, it's very important you have to remember that.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: This guy's name is Dwayne Deaver, and he is a
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: blood splatter expert. And he conducts all these blood spatter tests, right?
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Like he makes the mannequin that looks just like her,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and then they put the blood down, and they do
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: all the things.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: To show what's possible. Right.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Also, I believe that Michael Peterson had a t-shirt and
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: shorts on that evening and they claim that there was
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: a blood splatter, like on the crotch area of his shorts,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: which would mean that if he was hitting her, then
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: the splatter was like coming from underneath him. Otherwise, if
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: you just found a body, why would.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: You end up with blood on him?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Yes. He had blood on him. He had blood all
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: over his shorts. And he had blood splatter.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, but he's probably claiming that was like when he
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: approached her. Right.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: He claims that he found her and, you know, he was...
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: holding her head or picking her up. And that's why
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: he had blood all over his shorts. However, the blood
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: spatter expert claims that he had blood splatter on the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: bottom of his shorts, which would mean that if he
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: was like over the top of her and hitting her,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: then blood splatter would go onto his shorts. Why would
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: you have splatter on you if you just came across
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: the body?
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: It would be smeared on if you were just coming
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: into contact with blood. Right.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Also, another strange thing, and I was trying to figure
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: this out, she had blood all over the bottom of
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: her feet. So if she just strictly fell and he
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: wasn't there, she would have just fallen and then there
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be blood on the bottom.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And the way you described it was as if there
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: was blood throughout the stairs, right?
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: It's all over the walls. Right.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: But if you fall down, it's not like blood squirts
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: out of your body and then you start to roll
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: down the stairs. Yeah. It would take a while to
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: get those injuries.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Clearly, he's guilty. So what's the verdict?
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: No, let me say, there's one other thing that I
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: found interesting. They found one spot of Kathleen's blood on
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: the front porch, and it was a round blood spot.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Like a perfectly round.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Like a perfectly round.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: It just dropped straight down.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Right. And so they think, and this makes sense to me,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: that if there was a, let's say there was, theoretically,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the blow poke was used. Now, they couldn't find the
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: blow poke when they searched the house. They couldn't find
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: any kind of weapon that was used to hit her
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: over the head. And they also believe that there was
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: more time between him finding her and him calling 911,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: that there was a period of time. Because when they
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: got there, there was a lot of dried blood on
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: the wall. And there was dried blood, I believe, other places.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: So it looked like it had congealed. So it wasn't
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: like it had just happened. They believe that there was
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: a longer period of time. His son was also there.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: His son happened to come right when it happened. This
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: is like two o'clock in the morning. So the theory
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: is possibly that the blow poke was the weapon and
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: that maybe the son took the weapon out and got
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: rid of it. And as he was leaving the house,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: one drop of her blood fell from the weapon onto
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: the front porch because it was round.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Right. Which meant it was truly dropped straight down.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Which means it dropped straight down. Right. So that could
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: be why there was one drop of her blood on
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: the front porch, which makes sense to me, by the way.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: But they never found the weapon. The prosecution never found
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: the weapon. There was never, the blow poke was never found.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: So that drop of blood really doesn't result in anything.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Like it didn't tell a story. That's a possibility. But
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: the drop of blood alone, I'm saying, doesn't really do much.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, if
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: you're a defense attorney, I'm looking at it like, well,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: she lived there.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And she could have cut her finger.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: The argument's going to be made, no less. I'm just saying,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: you bringing that up is interesting to talk about. But legally,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: in the courts, it didn't really do much.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I imagine.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: It didn't sway them. Right.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: So Dwayne Deaver, we have to remember his name. He
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: is the blood spatter expert, and he's the one that testifies.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: He's the one that did all the blood spatter analysis,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: and he testifies that she had to have been beaten
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: because of the splatter where it is. It's up high.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: It's on the ceiling. He's got splatter underneath his shorts.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: It had to have been a beating. That was very
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: compelling for the jury, and I believe the jury convicted
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: him based a lot upon his testimony about the blood splatter.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Now, the defense at the trial does a Perry Mason moment.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: The prosecution was unaware. But at the end of the trial,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: the defense pulls out a blow poke. And they claim
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: that it's the actual blow poke from the house that
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: they just missed it in the search. They said they
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: found it in the basement.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: So the question is, did they really find it in
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: the basement? I don't know. Because they searched the home
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: multiple times. And they searched from top to bottom.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: But yet they found, now they found it.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: But the defense in the last hour at the trial
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: is all of a sudden like, we found the blow poke.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: It was in the basement.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So. But did the blow poke have anything on it?
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Well, that was my question. Because I thought, first of all,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: did you not have to disclose to the prosecution about
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: an exhibit because they were using it. But then it's like, well,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: why wasn't it tested? Did it have DNA on it?
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Did it have her DNA? Was there blood? Was there
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: any kind of like, wouldn't the prosecution have been allowed
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: to test it for DNA? Yeah. Anyway, it was like
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: one of those moments where you can, I watched that
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: part of the trial and the prosecutor, like his face,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: he was just like, cause that was the whole theory, right?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: That he used this weapon to beat her.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: And then when the defense says, well, here's the weapon,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and it was in the house, and you guys never
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: saw it, then that whole theory goes out the window, right?
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Do you have a theory on what happened? Why you
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: think how they found it, or supposedly found it?
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: The blow poke?
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you think it was fixed?
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, I guess I have to back up, and you
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: have to ask me, do I think he did it,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: or do I think that she fell down the stairs?
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I know you think he did it. I do.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: You can't tell me anything else.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, I do think that he murdered her.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I don't see how anyone... If I go fall down
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: the stairs, there is no way that I'm going to
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: have seven huge lacerations in my head and there's going
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: to be blood on the ceiling. Right. Like, there's just
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: no way that that happens.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, I understand you can get hurt severely or
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: die falling down the stairs, but I feel like it's
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: just more like impact. So you think you did it?
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I do. I think you did it.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Okay. So.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I think the blow poke is a good theory. The
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: blow poke that they produced in court didn't have the
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: end on it.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: The little hook or whatever.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: It didn't have the hook on the end. So I
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: don't know what happened to that. I don't know if
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: they went and bought one and then they put it
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: in the basement and let it sit there for a
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: couple months.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Well, did the sister testify that that's the one she bought?
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't think... No.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't matter because if there's no DNA found
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: on it or tested for it or anything, then all
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: it is is just a prop. Right. That was found
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: in a basement. So, so what?
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: And I don't think it sold the jury because the
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: jury convicts him. I think the jury was more compelled
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: by the blood spatter analysis and that type of, and
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: the blow poke could have been compelling. It was like
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: a Perry Mason moment, like, aha, here's.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: The blow poke.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if it was that compelling to
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: the jury. They ended up finding him guilty of first-degree murder,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: and he's sentenced to life in prison without parole. You
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: know what I think? I think something happened between him
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Ratliff. Maybe they were having an affair. Maybe
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: she was going to expose it. I don't know. I'm
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: just speculating. And maybe there was some... type of confrontation
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: and he ended up beating her in some way and
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: then placed her at the bottom of the stairs. And
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: it worked so well because they didn't. They didn't take
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: a photo. They didn't investigate. They did nothing. They were like, oh,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: she just fell down the stairs. And then he thought, well,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: that worked really well. And then maybe he just did
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: it again 15 years later.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: But then what does he say? Say, meet me at
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: the top of the stairs, babe. I want to talk
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: to you. And they go meet at the top of
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the stairs and he beats her on the head seven
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: times and he throws her down the stairs.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Or I don't even know if she has to even
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: go down the stairs. I mean, maybe he just came.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. There was blood all the way
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: down the stairwell.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: No, there's stairs.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, it's up
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: the wall. It's everywhere. It's mostly at the bottom of
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: the stairs is the pool of blood that she's laying in. Yeah.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: And she had blood on the bottom of her feet,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: which made me think there had to have been some
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: kind of struggle where she's stepping in it. Because she's also,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: her own hair was found in her fist, which means
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: to me that she was like a struggle.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: And, you know, if someone's hitting you and you're trying
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: to grab them, but you grab your own hair and
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: get your own hair.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: You're scrambling and you're wrestling or whatever.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Right. Because otherwise, if you're just falling down the stairs,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: why would you have your own hair in your fist?
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's fair to say she didn't fall
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: down the stairs.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, I'm just trying to, you know, be open-minded.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: All right. So a documentary is made called The Staircase.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: This is in 2004 to 2005 by a French filmmaker.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: It was released in France and then in the US
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: in 2008. So Peterson, Michael Peterson had a neighbor who
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: was an attorney. His name's Larry Pollard. He was very
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: interested in the case and he was reviewing the autopsy report.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And as he was reviewing it, he saw some you know,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: there's several pages. He saw a report that when they
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: did the autopsy, that they found microscopic feathers in Kathleen
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Peterson's head.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: She was growing feathers?
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know. So then he suggests the owl theory.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: And he claims that an owl attacked Kathleen outside of
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: And then she fell on the stairs after making it
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: back inside. And if you look at the lacerations on
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: her head, they do kind of look like claw marks. Now,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about this owl theory.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Because first of all, I don't know how you... Like,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: you're going to tell me she got attacked outside by
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: an owl, but then she gets inside and Michael Peterson
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't hear her screaming because she's fighting with an owl.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: And also... Wouldn't, if that was true, that there was
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: some kind of owl attack in this hallway by these stairs,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: wouldn't there have been owl feathers around? I mean, if
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: she's like grabbing her own hair and it's in her hand,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: she's obviously fighting with an owl. Wouldn't there have been
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: feathers other than microscopic ones found in her head?
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Has there been any reported attacks by owls on humans
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: ever in the history of mankind?
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I do know owls are
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: predators and I do know they have large talons and
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: they do attack prey. I don't think it's farfetched to
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: think that someone could be injured by an owl, but
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think that it was an owl. First of all,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I understand that they found some owl.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Okay. Here's the thing. They found feathers in her hair.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: So they say she was attacked by an owl.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Well, those feathers are specific to an owl. Right.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: I get it. I get it. I know they weren't
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: chicken feathers.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I get it.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: So then they, so this attorney comes up with this
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: theory called the owl theory.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: But then come up with theory of why the hair
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: is in her hand. Why there's blood everywhere. Why it's
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: the second murder in the same manner. Like come up
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: with theories on all that stuff. But a feather in
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: the hair is supposed to negate all that. Yeah. And
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: he's going to blame the, he's going to offend the
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: owl community.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're offended the owls.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: They're like, we don't attack.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Don't dare put that on them.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: We don't murder ladies and staircases.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: He did it. You're right. There was some confrontation of
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: some sort. They had one too many drinks. They opened
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: up on some issues and he attacked her.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: That's what I would think. And that's what is logical,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I think. Also, you know, those feathers go back to
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: an owl because I think owls are the only bird
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: that has microscopic feathers. So that's why it is... It
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: is an owl, like an actual owl feather. But also
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: I was thinking maybe those are in her hair or
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: in her head or whatever because they sit outside all
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: the time by the pool. Maybe she got some microscopic
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: owl feathers in her hair from just being outside. They
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: live in like a very foresty kind of area with
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: lots of trees and stuff around.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I don't even know why we're entertaining this any longer
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: than 30 seconds.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying if this woman really got in a
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: fight in a hallway with an owl, there would have
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: been owl feathers. But there's no feathers found. Anyway, let's
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: move on from the owl theory. That same year, this
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: is 2008, Caitlin Atwater, that's Kathleen's daughter, wins a wrongful death,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: a civil judgment of about $ 25 million against Peterson, which
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: he agrees to. I don't know why he has to
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: agree to. I mean, they won. I mean, she won
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: a civil action against him. Wrongful death, obviously. Then, so
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: he's in prison, right? He got convicted.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: He's in prison for life.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Without parole.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: But something.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Here is a problem.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Do you want his cellmate to fall down the stairs
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: or something?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: No. So there is another case. I don't remember the
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: name of the case, but a man was convicted of
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: murder because the only physical evidence they had against this
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: man was that there was a drop of substance found
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: on his truck. And Dwayne Devers, do you remember that name?
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: He was the blood spatter analysis in the Michael Peterson
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: case and He was also the blood expert in this case.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: He claims that when he tested the blood, that it
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: was human blood. And I also believe he claims it
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: came from the woman that was murdered or whatever. This
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: man was convicted of murder and sentenced to prison for
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: life for one drop of blood that they found on
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: his truck. And it was based upon the testimony of
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Dwayne Devers, the blood expert at trial. Then some type
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: of innocence organization, a wrongful conviction organization takes up this case.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: And they dive into the case and they find they,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: you know, subpoena or whatever, they get all of the
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: blood analysis and they get all of the paperwork back.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: They find in that, that that blood that was tested
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: in that case was not human blood.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: No way.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: And it was never disclosed at trial that it was
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: not human blood. That guy was released.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Well, granted. Right.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Because.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Was it even blood?
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: No, I think it might've been animal blood, but there was,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: they found a report like at the back of a
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: report that said it was not human blood.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: But what year was this?
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Well, this is in the 2000s.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Why didn't they even, why didn't they even do any
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: testing of any kind to know if it was the
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: victim's blood?
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: They did. And he testified that it was, I'm saying
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: he lied. Yeah. He lied. And this man was convicted.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: And does this Dweeber guy go to jail?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: So what happened was the judge immediately... Well, first of all,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: he was fired, right? When this all comes out and
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: is made public.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: He's fired.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: His credibility is at issue. Right.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: And also it was found out that he also bolstered
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: his claims that he had been an expert in like
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: 500 something cases. It was really only 50. He lied
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: about his credentials. So basically any case... That he had
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: been involved in where he was the blood spatter expert person.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: A judge ruled that they had to go back and
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: they had to relook at all these cases. And one
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: of those cases was Michael Peterson's case. Because he was
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: convicted based upon this guy testifying about the blood splatter
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: and all these things.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but Peterson's guilty.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: I know you think that. And I agree. However, he
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: gets a new trial.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, understood. Right.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Because his defense attorney is on it immediately. I would
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: have been begging for one. And they file for a retrial.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: The state appeals the order that granted Peterson a new trial.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: This is now we're going through 2012. Two new documentary
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: comes out are called The Staircase. In 2016, Durham DA
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Roger Echols announces that he will retry Peterson for first
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: degree murder. Shortly, now we get to 2017. Shortly before
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: the retrial, Peterson, Michael Peterson, enters an Alford plea to
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: voluntary manslaughter. You know, so they give him the option
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: of an Alford plea.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: It's basically saying, I'm not going to admit guilt, but
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: I'll take the punishment.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Right. So he basically says, I'm not guilty, but I'll
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: admit to it, or I'll admit that basically if I
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: was retried, they'd most likely find me guilty.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of like a no contest plea, right?
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Kind of, yeah.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Anyway, so he pleads down to a manslaughter. I don't
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: think they wanted to retry him because one, they don't
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: have the blood spatter analysis expert that they can put
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: on the stand anymore, right? So that's out. And two,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: they would have to have another hearing to see if
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: they can allow the evidence and testimony that had to
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: do with the first murder in.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: So what's his sentencing?
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Well, he walks out a free man. They give him
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: time served. Oh, really?
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: He served eight, I believe, eight years. And they say
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: he served enough time because he- So this.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Criminal got off because there was another criminal that acted
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: as a witness in this case.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: So Michael Peterson walks out of court because he took
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: an Alford plea. He pleads to voluntary manslaughter. And then
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: with that plea, he keeps saying he is innocent while
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: admitting that the state has enough evidence to convict him
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: because it's manslaughter. He gets time served and he leaves
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: court a free man. Um, Legally, the case ends here
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: and it remains disputed whether Kathleen was murdered or died
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: in a fall. Obviously, he maintains his innocence. He continues
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: to say that he loved Kathleen, that he would never
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: murder her, that he didn't do it, that he's, you know,
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: that he's a victim of the criminal justice system, that
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: they're crooked, that everyone was crooked. I mean, and it
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: does look that way. The blood spatter guy, expert guy
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: was clearly crooked. I mean, not showing that the blood
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: was not human blood and that man was convicted. Why
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: is this guy not in jail? That's a problem. So
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: in 2019, so he now lives in like a little condo.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: He still sees his kids and grandkids.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Is he running for any political office?
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Not that I know of. He publishes a book in
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: 2019 about the case. They include Behind the Staircase and
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Beyond the Staircase. And he says he gives the proceeds
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: to charity. In May of 2022, HBO Max releases the
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: dramatized limited series The Staircase. Colin Firth, plays Peterson, and
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Toni Collette plays Kathleen.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Is that what you watched?
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: I haven't watched that one. I've watched the documentary ones,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: not the dramatizations. Today, Peterson still lives in Durham, North Carolina,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: on a ground floor apartment with no stairs.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: I like how it's ground floor, like we need to
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: know that detail.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because we don't want him around any stairs or
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: being friendly with any neighbors that could be around any stairs. So,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You think he's guilty. I think he's guilty.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I think he got away with murder. I think he
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: spent eight years in jail and now he's. Oh yeah.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: That's, that's a big deal. Eight years. That's it. He
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: went from life forever to eight. He's gave a lot
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: of prisoners hope. All those prisoners in jail are like, yeah,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: we can get out.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Well, no, they, you know what they're doing? They're all
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: calling their defense attorney saying, well, was that guy?
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: It was a blood guy in my case. Who was he?
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Who was the blood expert on my case? Exactly. All right, guys,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening till death do us part.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: If you have any cases that you would like us
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: to discuss, please find me on Instagram. Or if you
• 41:48
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• 41:50
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• 41:53
  Speaker 1: make sure to tell your friends and family about us.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening.