Latest / The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick / Pre-Construction Lessons Every Developer Should Know with Charles Tofferi - TLP174

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Pre-Construction Lessons Every Developer Should Know with Charles Tofferi - TLP174 · The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would challenge any owner or developer, get a contractor involved early, see what they think, right?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in the napkin drawing phase of a project, what do they think?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: What are the means and methods?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: How are they looking at it?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Have conversations early on, not under contract, to see what kind of contractor they are.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are they going to go into the weeds?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are they going to provide value early on when they're not under contract?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, what's going on, everybody?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Land Development Podcast.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I am your host, Ryan Glick.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have an interview episode for you today, and joining me is Charles Tuffery.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Did I say that right?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Tofferi.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Dang it.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I messed it up.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: We just talked about it and I messed it up in the intro.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Tofferi.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Charles is the VP of sales, marketing, and pre-construction at Petticoat Smith Civil Contractors.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Charles, thanks for joining me.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you having me on board here.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Man, I can't believe I really messed up that intro just like that.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, messing up your last name.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's you're not you're not the first.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna be the last.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, 99% of people get it wrong.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So no worries.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I appreciate that.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's uh let's get into your background here to start out with.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you it looks like you started as an engineer and project manager.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and I'm just curious what brought you into the construction and infrastructure side?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh great question.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally unexpected, right?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh went to high school, you know, was planning on being a DOD contractor, you know, designing weapons, being in the military, something related to the DOD, right?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so went to the University of Alabama, got my uh engineering degree in mechanical engineering, went and worked for a uh chemical manufacturing company and realized I'm not a huge fan of engineering as much as I thought.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And there was an opportunity in Jacksonville to get back home and be in the construction space.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'd always been fond of it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up around it, so I was not unfamiliar to it uh and absolutely jumped at the opportunity.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Get back into the industry, get back into building and and developing something, and fell in love with it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely not expected when I graduated to to be in construction, but uh as I progressed in in my my career, I realized that this was really home.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is where I was meant to be all along.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you think was it more of a location thing?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: You wanted to like did you want to get back to the location first and then you picked construction, or was it construction that brought you back to your home?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Construction really brought me back home.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I went to I went to Alabama trying to get away from Jacksonville, trying to get away from home.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the the longer and longer I stayed away from home, the more I felt compelled and pulled to come back to Jacksonville.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it really wasn't until I I got into the real world and and into a different industry and started working.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I made the wrong career choice in in doing something that I thought I'd really like.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and just so happens, you know, we all gravitate towards something that's natural and feels good.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Jacksonville was natural.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I had family there, I had friends there.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And there was something about a safety net being back home to where you can really start something new, something fresh, and have the support of the community around you.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um not only that, but Jacksonville is freaking awesome.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you got the beach from there, you got you got the river, and uh so it's it's a hard place to be.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for those who aren't familiar with your company, um, could you describe what the company does?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Pettigo Schmidt, we are a heavy civil contractor.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: We do water resource uh construction, so building new plants, rehabilitation of existing plants, uh, so water, wastewater, lift stations, pump stations, wellheads, anything that uh transports or or um uh handles the process of water and wastewater.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just one group.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: We do public work, so we deal with public entities, uh, line work, roadway construction, uh anything in that sector.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: But we also do site development in the private space.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um we do a lot of commercial development, single family, multifamily, uh industrial, uh, so heavy development across the board.
• 4:10
  unknown: Okay.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Moving earth or doing utilities, we're all about it.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: And where where do you operate out of?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we're in Jacksonville, Florida.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've got one office here in Jacksonville.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: We will travel up to 300 miles for all three branches of our business.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but really the core focus, um, the public work and the site development aspect of the business is really within 100 miles of Jacksonville.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so your role at the company, um, being you know, on the sales, marketing, pre-construction side of things, what does that look like?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a great opportunity, man.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's different every single day, and I love it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the things I love to say is that I'm in the relationship building industry.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just happen to be a contractor on the side.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And in this role, it's really the truth, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh constantly building the relationships in and out of outside of the company.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I get a lot of uh opportunities to go and spend time with clients and meet them and solve their problems on the front end of the construction project, and then work with the team on the inside to really hone in on resolving the issues that we're facing outside the company.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's different every day, uh, getting an estimate, uh, getting to work on some of the marketing, but also really hone in on the business development and and being that that specialty contractor, that trade partner that people uh love and respect and want to keep coming back to.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So in the early days of your career, I would imagine you were probably more out on site on projects and things like that, maybe more often than you are today, or do you still do you still get out to sites very often with uh the type of role that you're in today?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's funny.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I definitely miss being um on a project site.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I started out uh being at the project sites, you know, majority of the time, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Jumping in into construction from uh engineering, you know, the sometimes uh the best way to learn is jumping in the deep end and it's sink or swim.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and really that was the upbringing that I had.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, within the first couple of weeks, here's a project, go build it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, being an engineer, it's like, oh my God.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So just relying on on the the experience and and the understanding uh that I didn't know what I was doing, uh, and I'd have to go to the experience that the people had.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: They they knew what they were doing.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the old uh the old dogs in the field, uh the senior project managers, the guys that really had the time and and talent.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I spent a lot of time uh in the field.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'd asked to turn wrenches, I'd asked to go uh dig holes and understand how it's built.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I definitely got to spend a lot of time in the field.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And now uh having had that upbringing and understanding, uh definitely a lot of respect to those guys.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they're built different.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I couldn't do that day in and day out, and I certainly don't have the the technical experience to go and operate equipment or put pipe in the ground on a regular basis.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: So my hats off to them.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And being in the office, I I definitely love and enjoy every minute I get to go back to the field, but I definitely don't do as much as I'd like to.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you uh are there things from those days, those early days that you still think about or that maybe help guide some of the things that you're doing today in your current role?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I think back to some of the times where jump getting out to the project site, seeing a situation where um you might be a man down.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, one particular instance, I I was on a job site.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is early in my career and just super, super young.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a small crew we're putting in some water pipe for JEA, it's a local utility out here.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the guys was six, so it was an even shorter crew.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I earned the respect and admiration for the guys on that on that crew and team and jumped out, uh, went and put some pipe in place, uh, made the connection, even though the weather started getting bad.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and really the takeaway from that is uh you're not above service.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Service is is is getting out of the truck and doing what's right and taking care of the guys, uh, regardless of position, of title, of, of, of anything.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's being being a value add to the team there and being able to serve them.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was a great experience.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot and learned what not to do in certain situations.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Pinched my finger a few times and and got dirty and muddy, and it was great.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great experience.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: But learning from those guys that it is, it really takes grit uh and it's a lot harder than than you think.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think it gives you the respect of the people out in the field to like actually be out there or know that you did that maybe back in the early days?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because I, you know, I think about that quite a bit because I I get the chance to talk with people who are either still in the weeds quite a bit, maybe they're a smaller organization, so they're always out there on site and everything.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I also talk to people who are 100% in the office.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like I'm always curious about that connection between um, I think I've said this multiple times on the podcast in the past, but the suits and the boots, right?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the people that are out there doing the work versus the people in the office and trying to make sure that you have each other's mutual respect to make the company everybody head in the same direction.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's helped you?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, absolutely.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, especially, especially nowadays.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in the role that I'm in, I I get to work with a lot of estimators and and people that are just super, super talented.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: But seeing somebody that's got the experience of having been in the field versus not having been in the field, oh, there's a stark contrast.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's no no disrespect or disservice to the people that don't have that understanding, but they've seen how it gets put in place.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: They have a better uh idea and concept of how the work is to be put in place.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um the people that came from operations are are seeing it in the field day in and day out.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Man, they're better at costing, they're better at building the estimate and putting it together.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and so seeing that, recognizing that, one of the things that we try to do is always push push the people in the office.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Get out there, go experience it, see how it's put in place, see what the duration is and and uh get the understanding firsthand as to what it takes so that you're better as an estimator.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have a lot of uh most of the people who are listening in are developers and builders.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a lot of, you know, a lot on the residential side, but we've got a mix.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: We've got some commercial as well and mixed use developers and and uh you know, some of the things that I like to talk about and get feedback on is really the project process.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so for those, you know, a lot of developers, they're not gonna do all of the actual development themselves.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna maybe manage the project or they're gonna buy the dirt or they're gonna buy the land and then they're gonna, you know, sub it out to somebody.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, for you guys, when you go into a project, you know, what tends to be some of the things that developers maybe miss early on that you know you have to come in and and basically uncover for them.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Are there things that are commonly missed by developers on projects?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: It it's it's just absolutely yes.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and sometimes it's better than than others, and sometimes it's it's way worse.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the asks is you know, get a contractor's perspective as early as possible.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think that the one thing that's really missed is the involvement of the right people early on.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in in the site development world, we we don't see a lot of um uh design build or construction manager at risk or progressive design bill.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there's not a lot of a lot of different means of of contracting out there.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you're seeing the owner collaborate with engineers and then bring in uh the contractor at a later date, and they didn't really have that opportunity to do the VE or the constructability reviews.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but on the public side, or even the public private venture or some of the projects that I've seen in the past, not development-wise, they have that relationship and those projects take off, and they're so well oiled and well-managed and well done.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's just such a stark contrast.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you can really see it too on the projects where the developer has involved a contractor or they have involved an entity that can provide the constructability and the reviews, and it's just a better route.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's I mean, there's so many steps in the process, right, for the for the developers when they're they're obviously you know starting out on the acquisition side, trying to find a piece of land that's gonna maybe work for the project they're trying to do, making sure that their pro forma is gonna fit and and all that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: But when they're going through the pro forma process, I would imagine before they go and actually buy it, they should be having some of these conversations, even with the contractors like you're talking about, because maybe something's going to be more difficult than they think, or maybe something that engineering you know put together is not gonna be not gonna go exactly the way that engineering thinks it's gonna go.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is that kind of what what you see sometimes?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely sometimes it's oh well, why is why is the utility size this particular size and this this run?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, we we've got a case be where we you know don't necessarily need to have a case B crossing, or um, there's definitely nuances that we see as contractors and think that's kind of odd, especially when we're getting the job and we didn't get involved in the front end.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it could have been prevented.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: There could have been a nice cost savings or it could have been a time savings.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and with developers, you know, time is money, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So how how cool would it be to get those key players involved earlier, save the time, save the money, and get it built the right way the first time before you're even out there building it physically?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I you know, I don't know if I've ever asked this question before, but I am kind of curious about it.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you and this may be something just more local to Jacksonville there, but what percentage of developers are more vertically integrated to the point where they do all the construction and everything themselves versus subbing it out?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it feels like most sub it out, but do you do you have a feel for that?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: If I had to give up percentage, I'd probably say few to none.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe maybe five percent.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's a it's a rare thing to see a fully integrated group go and do that.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely think there's some advantages to it.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: But there's there's something to be said about a group that is not vertically integrated, that is outside the realm of that company, that's got the understanding and and they they know the marketplace and have a better rapport with not just that developer, but a whole bunch of developers.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy that has uh a bunch of experience from a bunch of different places makes him a jack of all trades and very, very valuable when it comes to certain things.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you might have uh a guy that's got 40 years of experience and and a whole bunch of people coming in and and trying to resolve a problem, but that one guy that uh could come in with a different perspective because he worked with a different developer on a different job, it's seeing that same thing could could be an opportunity.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see uh when people when people are looking for a contractor to partner with, I think that's uh obviously just as big of a decision as picking the right engineer partner, picking, you know, all the different partners that you're gonna have along in this project.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's a developer doing their first project and they want to find that right contractor.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things that they should be asking the contractor or what type of research should they be doing on the contractor to make sure that I mean, it's never 100% guaranteed you're gonna pick the right one, but what are what are some of those things they can do to try to reduce that risk?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh great, great question.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I I love that perspective.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Getting a contractor's perspective or opinion or understanding as early on as possible sometimes is the task.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: You might have one or two involved.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would challenge any any owner or developer, get get a contractor involved early.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: See what they think, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in the the napkin uh drawing phase of a project, what do they think?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: What are the means and methods?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how are they looking at it?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Have conversations early on, not under contract, to see what what kind of contractor they are.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna go into the Wii's?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna provide value early on when they're not under contract?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are they focused in in getting the work and just getting a contract?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are they really the relationship-driven contractor that's that's more concerned about the long-term relationship versus the short-term initial contract?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: The guys that that want the long-term relationship, they're gonna get contracts over and over and over, but they're also gonna dig in early on, provide the value without having the benefit.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we love to see contractors, including ourselves, get involved and solve problems before having a contract.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a relationship, and the relationship ship is you know, pay dividends later on.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: What's the expectation to the developer in those situations when you're not under contract with a contracting group?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is there an expectation that you're still gonna pay them something for their time?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is it like a time and materials deal?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this the contractors basically knowing that they're gonna give some of their time to try to win the contract up front?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like what's the expectation to the developer in that point?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you know, I really think it depends, right?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: It depends how how the relationship is evolved.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if we're trying to get a relationship with the client, obviously we want to do as much as we possibly can and build that relationship and understanding and give them a feel good of what we do, how we do it, and why we do it, uh, and get it get that repeat expectation over and over and over.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have the expectation that we're gonna get paid for it.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I can certainly understand that a lot of contractors do, and and great, I I believe in it.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I believe that there should be sort of uh some front-end compensation for the time and effort put into it.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, you know, it it is a two-way street and it is a relationship.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if both parties are trying to get the opportunity to go hard and and get it to go, uh both teams are gonna ask in the ink.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: They should both be resolving the problem, coming up with solutions and trying to get it to ink, and then go and talk about the money aspect.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I I want to look at the flip side of that too, because I I think just as much as a developer is interviewing the contracting group to decide who to hire for a particular project, the contracting groups in most cases, I mean, unless they're desperate for work or whatever, they're gonna be also interviewing the developer to understand if it's a group they want to even do work with.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are they good, is it a good group to actually work with?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, from your perspective, when you're looking at a developer partner, yeah, what are some of the things you're looking for so that the developers listening in can know how they themselves can be a good partner of a contracting group?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Coming in on the early stages, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's the level of commitment?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are they committed?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are they gonna walk, are they gonna talk the talk and then walk the walk?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So are they showing up in force?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are they having a quick turnaround response time?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is the ask to the contractor reasonable?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, time is of the essence and time is money.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, that's an under understandable concept for us to get and understand.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: However, does it mean that we have to sit there and turn out budgets and and proposals over and over and over prior to the deal inking?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's got to be some sort of reasonable logic to it.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's the turnaround time?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: How often and the frequency with which we're doing that, uh, we don't want to just be a quoting service.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so having the relationship and and building that rapport to where it's both parties aren't feeling like they're being taken advantage of.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you certainly have to dance a little bit.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: But also having, you know, real open, honest conversations.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you gotta you gotta talk about the the elephant in the room.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there are some deadlines that are difficult and tough to meet.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're not making both parties aware, how can you go and solve that problem?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I've been in in many, many rooms and conversations to where we're having a great meeting and and have some understanding, but all of a sudden, outside of the meeting, the the script is flipped and there's some information that was withheld.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we need something sooner, or oh, the the it could be the you know, financial aspect of the project wasn't discussed or brought about or wasn't quite truthful.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a different uh understanding of of where the project stands.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So just have the open conversation.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Where where are you really on the funding aspect, uh, on the design aspect, are the challenges or or the issues?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it shouldn't be a partnership.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that might bring a relationship to an end?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like if if uh in situations where, and I obviously you don't need to give any examples of it necessarily with names or anything like that, but like what are the situations where you might have to like fire a customer of saying, you know what, this it's just not gonna work out?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is it literally the lack of communication or you know, misleading conversations, you know, bringing up things that aren't really, you know, it's not as far as long as they said, and they're kind of stringing you along.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is that when things might have to, you know, split apart um at that point?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's definitely some truth to that statement.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'd agree.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I think it really depends, right?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many different ways you can you can cut the cake and in that instance, majority of the time you'd hope that no relationship is unsavable.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but yeah, there's absolutely situations where there's no ROI.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and the truth is, no matter, you know, uh if you want to talk about it or not, is that we're all in this industry to make money, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're here to make a profit.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're here to to have the business grow and and develop and you know, go home at each and every night and have a good day, have a profitable day.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: There might be tough days, you know, in between, but if there's no ROI at some point in time, then what are we doing?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, there's there's instances where, you know, if we're again, we're just a quoting service, the contractor is probably not gonna want to be involved.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's tough, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you I think most people have the understanding that you're gonna have to quote and quote unquote and and earn the business and get the business.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also knowing your client, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: If the bottom dollar speaks more than than the value added, sometimes you gotta look at it from a different perspective or light in order to get the business.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: If it's if it's lowest value, know your client better so that you're also not going in with the wrong expectation.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and if if the expectation is constantly changing, then yeah, the the partnership could be at risk of of getting destroyed.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: So with you being more on the pre-construction side.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you I guess what what is your involvement look like throughout the project?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: If let's say, you know, they're the project, you're on the pre-construction side, right?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then the project actually kicks off, do you kind of drop off the project at that point?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I would I would love to say yes, but but the relationship aspect of of construction never ends.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't just terminate at the point that the project team takes over and and you're taken off.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you you have to maintain consistent touch points throughout the entirety of the project.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the frequency with with which that happens is not going to be every week or every day like it was in the pre-construction side.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: It might be a monthly touch point and check in how are things going?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: How are our teams doing but always having the interface with the client to be a resource to be a value add.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because again at the end of the day the job isn't not done until the until the final check's been collected you get the CEO and everybody's happy and money's in the bank.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So build that relationship continue to have the touch points with the clients and serve them from start to finish.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and the and the reason I was asking that too is because I wanted to get your perspective on you know what are some of the early warning signs of potential problems on a project, right?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: That you might you might have to get a little more involved right because you you teed up the project and uh now you have maybe this uh this client reaching back out to you about something what what are some of the warning signs that maybe developers could look for on on projects potentially communication is probably the biggest one right I and if there's ineffective communication you know most of the time I get involved.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be a misunderstanding or or just truly poor communication or the or the lack thereof.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So keeping a pulse on on how often communication's occurring what kind of communication that is who's involved those are all super important factors but keeping your finger on the pulse with how the project's going sometimes it can get derailed really quickly because there's no no observation or or monitoring going on.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the the the right people even though there's the best intentions don't click well it could be a an owner and a contractor maybe the the the two people from each each party just don't work well together.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: So is there an opportunity for them to to collaborate differently or or have a different person connect and and communicate with them to where the the relationship's a little bit better off that that could be um a key there but you know typically the the early warning signs are no communication a misunderstanding of expectations so if if both parties aren't coming to the table and having an expectations conversation prior to the job starting generally I would say you're probably going to start off wrong, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody's not gonna you know have the same understanding during the job as they did to the to the start of the job.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And with us uh I've certainly been uh a a shining example of what not to do we hand off a project for example we hand off a project we have the conversation with the the build team on on what to do what was covered what was not covered you know all the nuances that you think you have conveyed and and now they're set up for success and then they go and they start building the project and what we've conveyed to the client is what we understood to be the same that we conveyed to our our build teams but sometimes information's left out unintentionally or we're not teeing the two of them up to have that same understanding and scope conversation and and there could be challenges that arise from that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So early change orders not a good sign.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Poor communication breakdown not a good sign I think schedule slippage immediately is is a huge red flag.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are we not communicating why so some those are are probably some of the biggest ones that I would say that we need to be mindful of and watch that for should developers do you think developers as they're kind of working through some of the initial expectation setting and everything that that communication whatever the recurring communication is to like just make sure that it's on the table and everybody understands whatever that looks like and I don't even know what it looks like in these projects whether it's a a weekly report that gets sent out or or whatever gets sent so that way there is an expectation for all parties that hey this is what I expect to see as far as like telling me where the project's at at this frequency and if that stops happening then obviously they you know some somebody's dropping the ball somewhere is that the type of thing that you think developers should make sure is uh established before the project starts absolutely it's establish a a cadence early on of of what success looks like right talk about it what what does success look like uh in iterative measures right so or in increative measures are we are we gonna talk about what success looks like in the next 30 days let's do it right now um so for the next 30 days we know that the project any given project typically has a ramp up period and then you know a plateau and then ramps down some of the the highest and most difficult effort is always in the front end of the job.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well if we can set up the expectation for for what those those targeted milestones would would tentatively be uh and discuss them early on then we can we can have a beneficial relationship and and good conversation and you know so tee it up what what does success look like for the first 30 days all right what does success look like for the next 30 days does the initial meeting cadence for the first 90 days need to be every week every other week it's gonna be different for every every partnership and every every project but the more people in the project site and the more moving pieces the more I'd I'd recommend let's have more frequent uh touch points on a regular basis maybe do a a weekly touch point uh establish a cadence set up the the expectations for success success and make sure that you're you're hitting those milestones well let's uh let's talk through when the contracting company does not um live up to those expectations and how what's the what's the best way a developer should reach out to them obviously they're you know you need to do it in a tactful way to not mess up the relationship but what what's the best way you think a developer can reach out to the contracting company and say and basically let them know like hey we agreed to this and this isn't happening.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Honest conversations are are most often not going to be the easiest ones, right?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But being truthful and and open about it.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Coming to the table early on that would be huge.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's just natural right you know early on in my career I'd be having conversations at the project level right being a project manager I'm talking to my superintendent, talking to the field personnel this is what's going on with the project and then communicating upward the chin up the Chinek man, right?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: What the the Chinnockman on my side typically understood or heard might not be the exact same thing that they're hearing from uh the client.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it would be imperative that the client if they're really having a difficult time if there's red flags or there's challenges or there's a violation of the contract or or any condition that really means that we should get together, go direct, right?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Get get the contractor involved as quickly as possible.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you never want to delay and let it drag on and then you're talking money.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you're experiencing an issue let's talk about that issue immediately.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: All right what is a contractor going to do to prevent that issue in the future and how can we as a team resolve it together?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think the tactone delivery TTDs is huge.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes it's it's gonna be uh direct and forward or sometimes it's gonna be hey here's some of the the issues that we're experiencing and how can we resolve together it depends on on the relationship but do it as quickly as you can don't wait don't delay do you have any projects over the years that have been your favorite to uh work on I've had a couple yeah I've I've definitely had a a few I had a pipeline project that was probably one of my favorites just because I had never done anything like it before a hammering project with with utility going underneath the road so not a not a jack and more not a you know directional drill but literally hammering a pipe um through the roadway it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen when was that was that like early on in your career uh it's probably five years ago four four and a half years ago okay so not too bad um we got to experience some really cool things and now I'm in a in a position to where I don't get to manage it or or have direct involvement but getting to see the the team experience it directly is is super cool.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah well I I have one one other thing I want to talk about really quick before we jump into the last uh segment which is the lightning round so before we get into the lightning round um I did want to bring up one thing mainly because and we talked about this before we pressed record but you know we for the last year we've been partnered with Ladies in Land and uh we you know the ladies in land founder also started dudes in development so you know the guys side of things and so we are naturally a partner of dudes in development as well and so you've been involved in that organization in the Jacksonville area and I just wanted to get your um initial thoughts about you know what is the organization and then just also what's your experience been like with the organization so far.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Man I I don't have anything but good things to say about the organization uh both sides of the fence both for for the ladies and the men in the industry I got involved uh early on uh on the ladies side early 2025 and and got asked to speak at an engagement and sponsor and learn about the organization and what it was doing to benefit the women uh and it's phenomenal right mentorship and and and teaching and bringing awareness to the entirety of the industry about what is actually happening so you might you might be a developer and not know about XYZ well let's let's bridge that gap and and train and mentor and and develop the individual across uh the industry and so for me when I got tapped by Erica and and asked to to kind of lead the Jacksonville marketplace it it was a no-brainer yes for selfish reasons but more so for for the men in the industry right um I've always uh been acutely aware of of some of the gaps that exist because of the shortcomings that I had growing up and the things that I didn't get to experience.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to be you know a tool so to speak for Jacksonville for the people in the industry that uh I missed out on.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to mentor and develop and train and bring awareness to the industry and really speak life to you know the next generation of of professionals.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so love being involved was an easy yes for me.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think we just had one of our first uh meetings last month we've got our second uh meet up here at the end of June and our third early July and getting to see the men in the industry is is huge.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh building the relationships is huge and I'm I'm definitely excited to see what it brings to Jacksonville.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the big things for me and I think I've mentioned this on a prior podcast but um I'm very much opposed to like identity politics and everything like that.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember talking to Erica in the beginning and it's like when we were talking about the ladies in Landside and I said hey I'm all about like partnering on this but I need to understand the organization a little bit more and like what it's all about and everything.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we were very much in sync about it's not about getting women in the industry and giving them jobs because they're women it's about educating women to make them understand that it's these are careers that they can grow into and they basically get the knowledge and build the skills to be able to earn these positions.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same same thing on the men's side right with with dudes in development.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we talked about that and that was the understanding of it's like all right perfect.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's I'm all about that I'm all about earning the the meritocracy and earning your role whatever that role is going to be and so um I think for people listening in who are not familiar with them that's very much um how the organizations are are structured and and how they operate.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not uh you know one of these other organizations that you might see that is doing things different to that to where it's just it's about the identity of the of the group.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah well said and and I think what's so cool to see is is just the the education focus and the focused on the individual versus a social aspect or a social organization.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: So uh hats off to Erica and what she's built and the opportunity that she's presented to me and many other uh ambassadors that get to lead the marketplaces around the country and um it's phenomenal.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Agree.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: So for those of you listening in on the the guys out there there's uh be on the lookout for some of these chapters opening up around the country um over time you can you can connect with that and I'm not even sure if there's a dudes in development website out there but in development.com yes sir okay there you go so you guys can check that out out there and uh see if there's a chapter coming to you sometime soon and and get involved with that but with that said let's go ahead and shift into the last segment which is the lightning round so I've got five questions for you all related to your experience uh first one what's one thing every project needs more of oh my god I don't I've never had that question um what does it need more of more wisdom I think more wisdom there's there's been a lot of projects that I've had the opportunity to be involved in and I saw that there was inexperience across the board in all positions and levels and and I think the awareness that brought to me was hey it's it's crucial that we fill that gap uh and that void that we're currently experiencing in the industry with wisdom right we still need to have authority that has the wisdom and understanding of what's being done why it's being done so that it can be done correctly in the future so making sure that we're not uh gonna fill the gap with uneducation, inexperience and green horns that could be that could be disastrous.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like when we talked about earlier with your first experience of kind of just being thrown thrown in and trying to figure things out but it's less about you still want people to be thrown in and figure things out but you've got to have the structure there so that the mentors with that experience are going to be involved to a certain degree to make sure that uh that wisdom and knowledge is there.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely absolutely perfect.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: All right second one what's the biggest mistake that you see often made during pre-construction?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Lack of communication or the assumption or presumption that everything is is hunky dory and good to go.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the biggest problems are the ones that you don't talk about and you're not aware of uh again kind of talking about the expectation conversation right it's really easy to sit there and and and give the lowest dollar value uh as a contractor right if that's what the owner wants they want the lowest dollar value we're gonna we're gonna make our our proposal appear low but are we really digging into the details and seeing it that it's apples to apples or it's not so um we need to be cautious and and and aware of that for sure.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: All right I got to dig into that a little bit more because the uh one one thing that made me think of is you know you get you can get such a wide range of bids from different companies and sometimes when you get those really low ones I've heard some horror stories of companies you know bidding really low but then there's a lot of nickel and diming that happens throughout the project with uh I think like the change orders and things that have to happen and next thing you know they bid really low to get the job but at the end of it they ended up paying more than what some of the other bids were from some of the other contractors.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do you as a developer how do you look out for that or how do you make sure that they're the bid is real and that it includes everything.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I oh man love great topic love that you asked this ask the questions right we're in an industry that there's a there's a lot of respect and people are people have integrity and there's a lot of respect for people to have the integrity.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also and it's sad that we we're we're in an industry that we we do see this from time to time where there is no integrity.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: People are going to do the wrong thing and they want to get the job for the wrong reasons right they're gonna get it low they're gonna cut corners and and we need to have integrity in this industry and make sure that we don't cut corners.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we do that?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: Price it the right way and I hate to say it uh developers you got to ask the questions to make sure that each contractor is pricing it the right way unsuitable soils and strippings what are we doing with unsuitables and soils and strippings is the contractor adding value and and reading the geotechnical report and seeing yeah strippings are not suitable they have to be exported off site or disposed of the right way.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard and seen contractors put unsuitables and strippings in places that are not meant for unsuitables and strippings and that's an integrity issue.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a huge problem but it also it causes concerns and issues with the development at a at a future point in time.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the other things that you experience is is just you know lack of scope or missing scope.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: We can easily exclude pricing on things that you're maybe not aware of all right like proof rolling or you know pond lining we're gonna take this out not include this.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can have the appearance of being low but do you really have all the parts and pieces that is fully required for the scope of services and it might not be to anybody's demise or or or ill intention it could just be that we're not having the conversation you know in in the contractor's mind they're gonna price as low as they can with as little as they can uh and then another contractor comes in and says we're gonna add as much value and price everything and and now that you have a huge disparity between the high number and the low number but there's also a huge scope gap and nobody's talking about that.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Face value they see the low number they see the high number and they exclude the high number and we we need to we need to do a better job of having those conversations understanding why and not just level it on quantities.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a that's an easy way to get in trouble if we look at an SOV breakout from a contractor and compare it to another contractor yeah we can probably have similar quantities and you can probably see the dollar differences well most people I feel are looking at it and saying no it's just the dollars that are different.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: No it's the scope the scope is going to be the huge issue.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: The dollars are pointing to the issue and the scope but let's have the conversation about why it's so different.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well I'm glad you explained that and I I think it's one of those things where yeah you don't you don't always get you don't always get bids that come back that are apples to apples.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean they're they're just not they don't include the same the same thing.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah makes sense.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: All right uh third one what's a red flag you immediately pay attention to on a project lack of design uh or or design conflicts so is the geotechnical report in direct conflict with the plans the product plans um is page one of the plans drastically different than page two are some of some of the details uh misleading right it's a huge red flag we didn't do our due diligence review but not only that if if you as a developer owner telling me that this is this is our final bidding um bid for this one we're gonna go to contract but as a contractor we can clearly see this is probably 60-90% you you need to put some more effort into this because if you contract on this you're gonna have complications later on and change orders and things of that nature.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: So red flag resolve the issue with some of the discrepancies do some more due diligence review the plans better make sure that all the documents align and and aren't in conflict with one another.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Alright fourth one what's the best lesson the field has ever taught you this might be from the early days.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah probably I I think I talk talked on this in another podcast but it still holds true is you don't know what you don't know.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: You might have the presumption that you know how something's put in but when you go out there and actually see it put in or feel it and do it yourself, you're gonna have a completely different understanding of of the effort that it takes to go and do the work or how it's getting performed.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: So from the field's perspective you don't know what you don't know and boy have I had some rude awakenings uh thinking I I knew oh it's gonna take X amount of time to go and do this and cost this amount but then I go out in the field and I see that the conditions are different and it's wet and soupy and you got to do dewatering and it's it's hard work and there's there's no shortcut to hard work.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta do the work.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't know what you don't know and until you figure out what you don't know ask the questions.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Constantly be curious and inquisitive yeah I think the ignorance that we have that we look back on in prior you know the prior years of our life and we look back and you you just sit there and you're like man I can't believe I did that or I can't believe I thought that or I can't believe it's just amazing how ignorant we are like even even at this moment in time and probably five years I'll look back at this moment in time and think about how ignorant I was about something because you're just constantly evolving and growing and stuff and there's just yeah you don't know you don't know.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's just uh yeah all right let's see last one here what's the best piece of advice you've ever received in your career best piece of advice kind of going back to that don't you don't know if you don't know never stop growing there's there's never the doors will never open for you unless you come knocking so uh ask questions seek wise counsel continue to learn uh because those that stop learning get left behind be eager to learn you know slow to speak quick to listen because you wanna you want to be that person at the table that doesn't necessarily know everything but you're gonna suck up the information learn and be able to resolve a problem later down the road.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: All right well that brings us to a close here what's the uh best way for people to connect with you and also learn more about your company yeah go online to uh pettycoachschmidt.com uh or you can connect with me on LinkedIn Charles Toffrey uh on LinkedIn alternatively uh go on dudesanddevelopment.com uh in the circle community with dudes and development I've got my profile there and I've got my email and cell phone number on there so we'd love to connect uh would love to meet you and have a conversation build a relationship right at the end of the day we're here to do that and would love to meet you and and understand what you guys do.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: And don't mess up his last name like I did you've heard it now multiple times pronounced the right way.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah don't don't mess it up.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well I if you guys look in the description for this episode there will be a link there to the show notes page and on the show notes page will be all the links that were just mentioned by Charles there.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: So check that out connect with Charles uh check out dudes in development and check out Peticoach and uh yeah again really appreciate you hopping on here and if you guys are not already subscribed please click that button we'd love to have you back for the next one otherwise we will talk to you all next week thanks Robin