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Scripture Shouldn't Be Used To Justify Abuse - Matthew 20:25–28 and Ezekiel 34:2–4 · If Bibles Could Talk

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So think about this for a second. What happens when
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  Speaker 1: the exact words that are meant to heal you are
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  Speaker 1: actually weaponized to keep you trapped?
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  Speaker 2: It's a terrifying thought, honestly.
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  Speaker 1: It really is. So welcome to today's deep dive. We
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: are so glad you are here with us. Today, we
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  Speaker 1: are unpacking a compiled set of notes and historical texts
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  Speaker 1: that explore a really highly sensitive, but just fascinating, absolutely
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  Speaker 1: crucial topic. Right.
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  Speaker 2: And that topic is the danger of using scripture to
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  Speaker 2: justify abuse.
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  Speaker 1: Exactly. Right. And our mission for this deep dive is
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  Speaker 1: to really look at how these sacred texts are sometimes
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  Speaker 1: distorted in religious environments.
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  Speaker 2: Because the goal of that distortion is usually to silence
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  Speaker 2: victims and protect power.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Spot on.
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  Speaker 1: And we want to see what a closer look at
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  Speaker 1: the actual text reveals about authority, submission, and forgiveness. So, okay,
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  Speaker 1: let's unpack this. Because the core conflict presented in these
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  Speaker 1: sources is just heartbreaking.
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  Speaker 2: It really is. I mean, you have people in deep
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  Speaker 2: pain being told to submit or forgive or just remain silent.
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  Speaker 1: While they are actively experiencing violence or intimidation or manipulation. Right.
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  Speaker 2: And before we go any further, we need to establish
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  Speaker 2: the foundation of the sources we're looking at. They argue
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  Speaker 2: that the problem is not Scripture itself.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, that's an important distinction.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's key. The texts aren't inherently abusive. The issue
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  Speaker 2: is the deliberate distortion of the text to protect someone's power.
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  Speaker 1: Which is such a wild psychological mechanism when you think
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  Speaker 1: about it. It's almost like a computer virus that disguises
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  Speaker 1: itself as a system update.
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  Speaker 2: That is a really good way to look at it.
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  Speaker 1: Right. It bypasses your common sense because it's using the
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  Speaker 1: voice of something you already trust. In this case, God
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  Speaker 1: or a spiritual leader.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. And to understand how this power gets abused... We
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  Speaker 2: actually have to start by looking at how these sources
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  Speaker 2: define spiritual authority in the first place.
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  Speaker 1: Right, because the baseline definition is kind of a shock,
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  Speaker 1: sociologically speaking.
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  Speaker 2: It totally is. So if we look at the New Testament,
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  Speaker 2: specifically Matthew chapter 20, verses 25 through 28, there's this
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  Speaker 2: really revealing moment.
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  Speaker 1: This is where Jesus is talking to his disciples, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they are basically having an argument about who
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  Speaker 2: gets to be the greatest, who gets the most status.
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  Speaker 1: Which is just such a classic human power struggle.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, completely. But Jesus uses that dispute to point out
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  Speaker 2: a massive contrast. He basically tells them, look, the rulers
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  Speaker 2: among the Gentiles, so the Roman authorities, they exercise authority
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  Speaker 2: by dominating people.
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  Speaker 1: They lord it over everyone beneath them.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. But then he says, for his followers, that pattern
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  Speaker 2: is forbidden. Greatness in this new kingdom has to be
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  Speaker 2: connected to service.
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  Speaker 1: It's a totally inverted pyramid. It is.
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  Speaker 2: And he uses himself as the ultimate metric. He says
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  Speaker 2: the son of man came not to be served, but
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  Speaker 2: to serve and to give his life as a ransom.
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  Speaker 1: So, I mean, it sounds like biblical leadership is meant
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  Speaker 1: to be less like a corporate CEO hoarding power and
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  Speaker 1: more like a lifeguard whose entire job and authority exists
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  Speaker 1: solely to protect and serve the swimmers.
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  Speaker 2: That is a perfect analogy. And, you know, what's fascinating here.
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  Speaker 2: is how directly this challenges anyone who believes spiritual authority
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  Speaker 2: gives them permission to dominate others.
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  Speaker 1: Right, because if you're dominating, you're not serving.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. Christian leadership fundamentally is just not an opportunity to
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  Speaker 2: exploit people. And we see this repeated in Mark chapter
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  Speaker 2: 10 and also in 1 Peter chapter 5 verses 2
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  Speaker 2: and 3.
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  Speaker 1: What does Peter say there?
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  Speaker 2: He specifically instructs church elders to shepherd willingly and absolutely
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  Speaker 2: not domineer over their flock.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, but we know human nature, right? So since the
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  Speaker 1: New Testament so clearly defines leadership as service, what happens
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  Speaker 1: when leaders inevitably use their position just for themselves?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the sources pivot here to a really stark warning
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  Speaker 2: from the Old Testament.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. Let's get into that.
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  Speaker 2: So in the book of Ezekiel, chapter 34, God directly
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  Speaker 2: confronts the leaders, the shepherds of Israel. And it is
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  Speaker 2: a brutal indictment.
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  Speaker 1: Because they were doing the exact opposite of serving, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Instead of caring for the flock, the text says
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  Speaker 2: they were just feeding themselves. They neglected the weak, they
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  Speaker 2: failed to heal the sick, and they didn't seek the lost.
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  Speaker 1: They were just treating the people like commodities. Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: But in verses 10 through 16, God declares that he
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  Speaker 2: will hold these shepherds accountable. He says he's going to
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  Speaker 2: step in and care for the sheep himself.
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  Speaker 1: Man. So here's where it gets really interesting. Do people
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  Speaker 1: sometimes automatically assume a leader has God's approval just because
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  Speaker 1: of their religious title? Completely missing the fact that God
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  Speaker 1: fiercely critiques bad leaders in these very texts.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, all the time. It is one of the most
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  Speaker 2: common psychological traps in religious environments. We just assume the
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  Speaker 2: title equals divine endorsement.
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  Speaker 1: Right. Like, he's a pastor, so God must be okay
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  Speaker 1: with whatever he's doing.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. But these texts completely shatter that assumption. And Jesus
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  Speaker 2: actually gives us a metric for this in Matthew chapter 7.
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  Speaker 1: Is that the part about the false prophets?
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Verses 15 through 20. He warns about false prophets
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  Speaker 2: and says you will recognize them by their fruit.
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  Speaker 1: So not by their charisma or their degrees or their followers. Right.
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  Speaker 2: By the actual tangible results of their actions. Are they
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  Speaker 2: producing healing and service or fear and domination?
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  Speaker 1: Which is such a practical way to evaluate someone.
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  Speaker 2: It really is. And we see Jesus apply this in
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  Speaker 2: Matthew 23, where he publicly confronts the religious leaders of
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  Speaker 2: his day. He calls them out for imposing heavy burdens
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  Speaker 2: on people while totally neglecting justice and mercy.
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  Speaker 1: So the big takeaway there is that occupying a religious
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  Speaker 1: leadership position does not equal automatic divine approval.
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  Speaker 2: Not at all. If anything, it invites stricter accountability.
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  Speaker 1: OK, so that covers the public institutional side of things.
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  Speaker 1: But we have to talk about what happens behind closed doors, right?
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  Speaker 1: Because this distortion of power doesn't just happen in megachurches. No.
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  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the sources explicitly highlight how this happens in marriages
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  Speaker 2: and family dynamics, too.
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  Speaker 1: And that's where the isolation makes it so much more dangerous.
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  Speaker 1: So let's look at the clear instructions the texts actually
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  Speaker 1: give for these relationships, because it's a lot.
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  Speaker 2: It is a lot, and it's very specific.
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  Speaker 1: Right. Like Ephesians chapter 5, verses 21 through 33, it
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  Speaker 1: frames marriage around mutual responsibility and sacrificial love.
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  Speaker 2: It specifically says husbands are to love their wives as
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  Speaker 2: Christ loved the church. And we just established that Christ's
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  Speaker 2: model was sacrifice, not domination.
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  Speaker 1: Exactly. And then Colossians 3 verse 19 explicitly forbids harshness.
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  Speaker 1: Ephesians 6 warns fathers not to provoke their children. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Which was a huge deal in the ancient Roman world
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  Speaker 2: where fathers had absolute control.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Totally countercultural. Right. And then 1 Peter 3 commands
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  Speaker 1: husbands to treat their wives with understanding and honor. But
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  Speaker 1: despite all of this, we constantly hear stories where abusers
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  Speaker 1: take the concept of submission from these exact texts and
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  Speaker 1: use it as a weapon.
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  Speaker 2: They absolutely do. It's done by cherry picking one verse
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  Speaker 2: and ignoring everything else.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, when abusers use these verses to demand unchecked obedience,
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  Speaker 1: it's like reading the terms and conditions of a contract,
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  Speaker 1: but intentionally crossing out the entire section that outlines the
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  Speaker 1: company's obligations to the consumer.
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  Speaker 2: That is exactly how it works. They demand all the benefits.
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  Speaker 2: and ignore all the responsibilities. But if we connect this
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  Speaker 2: to the bigger picture, submission just cannot honestly be separated
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  Speaker 2: from the rest of Scripture.
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  Speaker 1: Because the overarching framework doesn't allow for it. Right.
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  Speaker 2: None of these texts give anyone permission to commit violence
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  Speaker 2: or sexual abuse or coercion or cruelty. In fact, Malachi
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  Speaker 2: chapter 2 verses 14 through 16 addresses this head on.
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  Speaker 1: What does Malachi say?
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  Speaker 2: It basically says that covenant relationships must never involve betrayal
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  Speaker 2: or violence. That is a central concern to God in
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  Speaker 2: that text.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. Okay. The New Testament defines love pretty strictly too.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. 1 Corinthians 13 describes love as patient and kind.
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  Speaker 2: It specifically says love is not arrogant, it is not rude,
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  Speaker 2: and it is not self-seeking.
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  Speaker 1: So if an environment is arrogant, rude, and coercive, it
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  Speaker 1: literally fails the biblical definition of love. Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. And if an authority figure demands that you stay
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  Speaker 2: in that kind of environment, or worse, cover it up,
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  Speaker 2: the text actually gives you an out. Oh, really?
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  Speaker 1: Where's that?
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  Speaker 2: In Acts 5, verse 29, the apostles are being ordered
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  Speaker 2: by authorities to do something wrong, and they declare that
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  Speaker 2: they must obey God rather than human beings.
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  Speaker 1: So if a human authority demands that you endure abuse,
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  Speaker 1: which violates God's character, that authority has voided its own jurisdictions.
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  Speaker 2: That is exactly what the sources argue. And furthermore, Proverbs 31,
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  Speaker 2: verses 8 and 9 actively commands people to speak up
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  Speaker 2: and defend the rights of the vulnerable.
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  Speaker 1: So the mandate is protection, not silent endurance. But that
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  Speaker 1: brings us to the final and maybe the trickiest hurdle,
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  Speaker 1: which is the weaponization of forgiveness. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: This is often the ultimate trap used to keep victims
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  Speaker 2: in dangerous environments.
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  Speaker 1: Because if submission doesn't work, the abuser will say, well...
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  Speaker 1: If you're a good Christian, you have to forgive me,
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  Speaker 1: meaning everything goes back to normal and there are no consequences. Right.
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  Speaker 2: It's used as a reset button for the cycle of abuse.
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  Speaker 1: But the sources acknowledge that forgiveness is obviously a core
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  Speaker 1: part of Christianity. So how do they reconcile that?
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  Speaker 2: They explicitly state that forgiveness must never be manipulated into
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  Speaker 2: a demand that victims remain in danger. They highlight Romans
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  Speaker 2: chapter 12, verse 18.
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  Speaker 1: What does that one say?
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  Speaker 2: It says to live at peace with everyone. But it
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  Speaker 2: adds a crucial qualifier. If it is possible, as far
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  Speaker 2: as it depends on you.
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  Speaker 1: If it is possible. That implies that sometimes it just isn't.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. It encourages peace, but it does not command someone
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  Speaker 2: to tolerate ongoing abuse.
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  Speaker 1: So what does this all mean for a victim today?
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  Speaker 1: Does the text allow a person to internally forgive someone,
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  Speaker 1: like let go of the bitterness while practically maintaining their
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  Speaker 1: distance and maybe even calling the police?
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  Speaker 2: This raises an important question, and the answer is absolutely yes.
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  Speaker 2: According to the sources, you can fully forgive someone internally
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  Speaker 2: while simultaneously seeking protection.
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  Speaker 1: That is so important.
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  Speaker 2: It is. You can keep your distance, change the locks,
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  Speaker 2: and hold the offender completely accountable to the authorities. Forgiveness
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  Speaker 2: is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so bringing this all together, the ultimate takeaway we
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  Speaker 1: are getting from distilling all these sources is that Scripture
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  Speaker 1: should never, ever be turned into a weapon against the
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  Speaker 1: very people it calls believers to love and protect.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that is the core message. Spiritual authority is a
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  Speaker 2: responsibility to serve. It is absolutely not permission to control
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  Speaker 2: or intimidate.
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  Speaker 1: And the sources leave us with a really powerful reflection
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  Speaker 1: question for everyone listening, right?
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  Speaker 2: They do. The question is, are we interpreting scripture in
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  Speaker 2: a way that reflects the character of Christ? Or are
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  Speaker 2: we using selected verses to protect people who refuse to
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  Speaker 2: practice what they preach?
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  Speaker 1: Man, that is a heavy question, but it's one we
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  Speaker 1: all need to be asking. And that brings me to
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  Speaker 1: a final thought for you, our listeners, to kind of
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  Speaker 1: mull over as we wrap up today.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the thought?
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  Speaker 1: Well, if the absolute core of these texts is actually
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  Speaker 1: about fiercely protecting the vulnerable from exploitation, how might taking
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  Speaker 1: these verses seriously change the way a community reacts the
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  Speaker 1: next time in abuse allegation services?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, that changes everything.
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  Speaker 1: Right. I mean, how can we actively foster environments that
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: spot the fruit of bad shepherds Before the harm is
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  Speaker 1: ever done. Something to really think about. Thank you so
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  Speaker 1: much for joining us on this deep dive.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Thank you for being here.
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  Speaker 1: Keep digging deeper and we'll catch you next time.