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19. Healing Ancestral Trauma & Unseen Family Patterns with Shavasti · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Kia ora and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  I'm your host Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:26
  I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Kia ora everyone, welcome to Constellations and All That for 2025.
• 0:39
  Today I'm super excited to have my friend Shavasti here on, on Constellations and All That.
• 0:45
  Kia ora Shavasti.
• 0:48
  Thank you very much indeed.
• 0:50
  I was just, just crossing my mind that isn't technology wonderful because there you are, all seated and comfortable in your home in New Zealand, and I'm all seated and comfortable in my home in London, and the distance on the planet really could not be greater.
• 1:06
  Imagine our ancestors thinking about this because it's 7am in the morning here and it's 6pm in the evening for you.
• 1:13
  So for our ancestors to get their heads around what we're doing right now.
• 1:18
  And like all things, everything's got its plus side and also a shadow side.
• 1:22
  So I probably spend a little bit too much time on Facebook.
• 1:26
  So that's the shadow of technology, uh, but it enables me to work with people all over the world.
• 1:33
  That's in fact, that's a big part of my existence of working online with clients all over the world, which is one of my great pleasures and it keeps me out of trouble.
• 1:43
  Brilliant.
• 1:44
  Yes, it is one of the amazing advantages, isn't it?
• 1:47
  I'm going to actually invite you to introduce yourself first.
• 1:49
  I was about to jump ahead because I'm so excited.
• 1:52
  Can you tell?
• 1:54
  So I'm going to invite you to just share with the listeners and the viewers a little bit about yourself and how, whatever comes to mind for you.
• 2:02
  Okay.
• 2:02
  Well, so I work under the name Shavasti.
• 2:05
  That's the name that I prefer to be called.
• 2:08
  Although I am known for two books on family constellations, one called The Healing of Individuals, Families, and Nations, and the other called The Language of the Soul, which I think are both coming up for 17 or 18 years old now, and they were published under the name John L.
• 2:26
  Payne, which is my birth name.
• 2:28
  So, I'm a world traveler.
• 2:31
  I have given literally hundreds of Family Constellations workshops, and I believe that I've worked on every continent apart from Antarctica, in terms of giving, giving workshops.
• 2:43
  So I've given workshops in Brazil, in the United States of America, in Australia, in Thailand, and many, many different countries in Europe.
• 2:53
  So I'm a world traveler, and, um, um.
• 2:56
  I'm sure to be in the corner of the world where some of your listeners are as well, offering workshops.
• 3:01
  Yeah, yeah.
• 3:02
  And you were here last year in New Zealand also, which we were super grateful for, for our first ANSCE, first ever ANSCE, um, Constellation Intensive, so.
• 3:13
  It's really, really me and, and, um, I got involved in Family Constellation work back in 1998.
• 3:24
  Which is a long, long time ago, and I was a very reluctant participant, to be very honest.
• 3:29
  I had a friend who was studying family constellations with, with Bert Hellinger in Germany.
• 3:34
  I was living in the Netherlands at the time.
• 3:37
  And, uh, she kept on telling me about family constellations, but I'd previously done some psychodrama in an Osho center, and I really didn't like it.
• 3:45
  I didn't take the psychodrama at all.
• 3:47
  Maybe it was the style of the particular facilitator that I went to, but it, it seemed too abrasive to me.
• 3:53
  And so every time somebody told me about family constellation work, it just kept on reminding me of psychodrama.
• 3:59
  However, When I eventually did go for the first time and my friend was running one of her first workshops and she had a shortage of men and she really said, please as a favor to me, will you come to my workshop?
• 4:12
  So I agreed and I took to it like a duck to water.
• 4:16
  I thought this is it.
• 4:17
  This is what I've been looking for.
• 4:19
  Yeah.
• 4:21
  I had already been working with people as an energy healer, so I already had my own practice.
• 4:28
  I was also a tarot reader as well, back in those days, back in the 90s.
• 4:32
  And so I was looking to do something more therapeutic with people, as opposed to predictions, and the usual questions that people come to when, when you do a tarot reading, etc.
• 4:48
  And so, the first time my own family was set up in a constellation, what really struck me was how, without the story being told, the story of the family being told, it came to light.
• 5:05
  It came to light in a very touching and moving way, and I really sobbed my eyes out.
• 5:10
  I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed through my first constellation.
• 5:14
  And so that grabbed my attention.
• 5:16
  And so then I went back, and I continued to go back, and I continued to go back.
• 5:20
  And then over the years I had mentors, and then finally I did some training with Bert Hellinger himself.
• 5:26
  And then I started to, to, to facilitate at the end of 2000, and the beginning of 2001, and here we are in 2025, and I'm still facilitating and still giving a couple of weekend workshops per month.
• 5:40
  Yeah.
• 5:41
  And we're so grateful.
• 5:42
  Thank you.
• 5:44
  But just the way you describe that.
• 5:45
  So I, those are some things that I didn't know about you, about being the energy healer.
• 5:50
  Well, maybe I did, and it's just been filed somewhere else because that's kind of the same route for myself coming into the work as well.
• 5:56
  Some people come in, um, through the energy side of things and others come in through the psychology side of things, right?
• 6:04
  People find their way, different ways.
• 6:06
  I did further develop my energy healing work.
• 6:08
  I went to the Barbara Brennan School of Healing for a couple of years.
• 6:13
  And then I did another program of shamanic healing for three years.
• 6:17
  So I did spend five years at Energy Healing School after having had a practice in energy healing.
• 6:23
  So it's been a big part of my life, Soha Shamanism.
• 6:27
  Yes, I actually did know that.
• 6:29
  I think it was just the way you described it.
• 6:31
  It was felt like a whole lot of new knowledge for me.
• 6:33
  So, um, thank you for reminding me about that.
• 6:37
  But for me, it was the same too.
• 6:39
  You know, the first time I actually experienced it, someone had been trying to, you know, Describe it to me, and it just, I couldn't fathom it, and then when I experienced it, it was like, oh, this is what I've been waiting for.
• 6:54
  Well, tell you the truth, after 25 years of working with family constellations work, I still can't fathom it.
• 7:02
  I mean, there's something about surrendering to the mystery of it.
• 7:05
  There is a little bit of a mystery of it, without making that sound too woo woo, just that certain things happen within a constellation, certain movements take place.
• 7:14
  and certain phenomena become present, um, that we have no real explanation for other than to accept it is.
• 7:23
  It certainly is.
• 7:25
  I remember the second or third Constellation workshop that I went to, I was asked to represent someone's grandfather.
• 7:33
  Again, no information was given about the grandfather.
• 7:35
  In fact, he, he was just simply pulled into the Constellation rather than being central to the story.
• 7:42
  So in the preamble before the Constellation, in terms of talking about the client's issue, etc., no information was given about the grandfather whatsoever, and I had no way of knowing it.
• 7:52
  And so I was asked by the facilitator to step in as the grandfather, and as I did so, I stood on one leg.
• 8:01
  And what was really bizarre, as much as I tried to put that leg down, because I felt very self conscious, I tried to put that leg down, and boop, it kept on coming back up, and boop, it kept on coming back up.
• 8:13
  And then the client said to the facilitator, my grandfather lost his leg in the First World War.
• 8:20
  I had no way of knowing that.
• 8:22
  No way of knowing that.
• 8:24
  And so, one of the wonderful and beautiful things about Family Constellation work is that we're not Tapping into our psychic gifts, because anyone at all.
• 8:35
  can represent in a family constellation.
• 8:37
  So you don't have to be psychically gifted.
• 8:39
  You don't even have to be particularly energetically gifted.
• 8:42
  In fact, what I find with my own clients and my own workshops, the less I say, the easier it is.
• 8:48
  The less I explain, the easier it is.
• 8:51
  Because when we start explaining how it works, we start talking about the morphogenic field, and we talk about the knowing field, etc.
• 8:58
  Then I notice that people become a little bit anxious, and then there is this expectation.
• 9:04
  They have to know how to do a particular thing.
• 9:06
  And in my observation, um, less is more.
• 9:12
  And it, and just, and the work then just remains clean.
• 9:15
  Yeah.
• 9:16
  Sometimes I have a client in the field or someone who's representing in the field now, and they're like, I don't feel anything.
• 9:25
  And then I'm just like, perfect.
• 9:27
  It's okay.
• 9:28
  It's obviously what's there.
• 9:31
  So they're starting to feel self conscious that, Oh, I'm not doing this right.
• 9:35
  Or I don't know how to, I don't know how to feel or whatever, but often it's, it's the, the perfect feedback for what's going on for that person who's being represented.
• 9:47
  Well, sometimes they're representing somebody who was numb in real life.
• 9:50
  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 9:52
  That's exactly what's happening.
• 9:53
  Yeah.
• 9:55
  So Shavasthi, tell me a little bit more about, um, your recent book.
• 10:00
  That you've, um, it's an audio book, is that correct?
• 10:04
  Yeah, which is not really that recent.
• 10:06
  It's actually, um, it's actually 10 years old.
• 10:09
  So I haven't actually created anything or written a book or done, I, I've got my YouTube videos and I've got my Instagram videos, et cetera, which are all recent and current and I currently generate them.
• 10:21
  Um, but the last piece of material that I produce is an audio book.
• 10:27
  Um, which is really an audio presentation, because I'm not sitting there reading a book, I actually just went into a studio and sat in front of a microphone, and I talked for five hours.
• 10:37
  Um, I did take one break, but basically without breaks.
• 10:42
  And so it's called Teachings from an Awakened Heart.
• 10:46
  And it really is the summary of everything that I've learned in the past 25 years of facilitating and going through my own healing process.
• 10:57
  So it's very much based upon, um, my own experience in, there's no dogma, there's no teachings, there's no the world is like this or the world is like that, but it's really about asking important And deep questions, and offering some answers to those questions, without being attached to the answers.
• 11:23
  Part of the sharing is a near death experience that I had.
• 11:27
  In 2013, I had a motorcycle accident in Thailand, which led to an incredible out of body experience.
• 11:36
  Uh, that was very transformative, um, plus also another pivotal experience moment of mine in 2007, when I was involved in an armed robbery and had a gun pointed to my head, and then a moment when a voice, a voice saved me.
• 11:53
  And so, uh, whether that was the voice of God or my spirit guides or an ancestor, I have no idea.
• 12:00
  I don't try and figure those things out, I just take them for what they are.
• 12:04
  And so there was a voice that assured me that everything was going to be okay, and then a miracle happened.
• 12:11
  A miracle literally happened.
• 12:13
  And so, in the book I talk about these two experiences as things that changed the direction of my life.
• 12:22
  And so, in South Africa, with the armed robbery, it changed the direction of my life because I suddenly knew, uh, that now was the time to go to healing school, now was the time to leave South Africa and, and go elsewhere, because certainly being in South Africa and trying to attend a school in Europe was financially not really feasible, so I really had to up sticks and move, which was not an easy thing to do because I loved my house, I loved the land that I was on.
• 12:51
  And so some sacrifices were needed.
• 12:54
  But when there's such a shocking and traumatic event, it's really difficult to stay still and stay in the same place.
• 13:03
  You have to move.
• 13:04
  And so I'm guessing the universe booted me out of South Africa and set me on a different path, a path for which I'm very, very grateful.
• 13:13
  I wouldn't change any of these events for anything.
• 13:16
  Yeah, I understand that.
• 13:17
  Yeah.
• 13:19
  So in the book I explore that, and I really take people on a journey.
• 13:25
  And some people feel very touched, some people are moved to tears when they listen to it, or they're taken into an altered state as I weave in and out teachings based upon my own experience.
• 13:41
  So not the sort of thing you could be driving a car listening to?
• 13:44
  Mmm.
• 13:46
  Some people care.
• 13:50
  Some people have . I, I, I've had emails from clients that have said that the, I listen to a portion of your, of your audio book every morning in the car on the way to work, and I'm like, okay, that's your choice.
• 14:03
  I would rather sit and listen to it.
• 14:05
  Yeah.
• 14:06
  Yeah.
• 14:06
  Mm-hmm . Oh, brilliant.
• 14:08
  Well, I look forward to that.
• 14:10
  So that audio book is available on my website.
• 14:12
  Um, I've got two websites.
• 14:14
  shavasthi.
• 14:15
  com and familyconstellations.
• 14:18
  net.
• 14:19
  So I'm pretty easy.
• 14:19
  If you just type in my name, Shavasthi, you'll find me.
• 14:22
  I'm the only one on the planet as far as I know, apart from a teenage girl in India somewhere who's called Shavasthi.
• 14:30
  Yeah.
• 14:31
  Okay.
• 14:31
  Let's not get that confused then.
• 14:34
  So, for the listeners, this is one question that I do ask most of my guests, is how would you describe Family Constellations to someone that you're meeting at a social dinner or something like that and they ask you what you do?
• 14:50
  Oh, those conversations I try to avoid as much as possible.
• 14:54
  I would describe Family Constellations as being a different therapeutic approach.
• 14:59
  Rather than the focus being on how we feel about something, the focus is really on what happened.
• 15:06
  And what's important?
• 15:08
  Who's missing?
• 15:09
  Who belongs?
• 15:10
  And it's a way of looking at our entanglements with other individuals within the family system, and also any hidden loyalties that we might have.
• 15:19
  So, for example, it takes a very courageous child to be happier than their own parents.
• 15:25
  And what we often see in family consolation work, When the work comes to life and the events are placed in the constellation, such as the migration of our grandparents or the war, Second World War, or some other event, or the, the death of your grandmother's firstborn child, et cetera.
• 15:42
  Once we create the picture of that in terms of representative standing in to represent, then the feelings of the client become very, very clear.
• 15:53
  They'll say, Yes, I feel very sad for my parents.
• 15:55
  Yes, I feel guilty for having this, this, that, or the other because my mother suffers from depression or whatever it is.
• 16:03
  And so what I find, particularly in my private practice, is that I have many clients that come to me who have spent many years in psychotherapy.
• 16:12
  And the psychotherapist has never delved into the history of their family.
• 16:16
  It's all about How does that make you feel?
• 16:18
  How do you feel today?
• 16:19
  How do you feel today?
• 16:21
  And so, many people report going round in circles for a decade or more, and once they get involved in family consolation work, things become crystal clear.
• 16:34
  The causes of certain things become crystal clear, and for some people that can be overnight, but for other people, it's a process just like any other therapeutic process.
• 16:44
  That's a great, great description.
• 16:47
  And as you were sharing it, I was feeling that, that breath out as well, because there's that felt, not how you're feeling, like here, but how you, but that felt experience in the body, that somatic, it's often that breath out and you just feel that lightness in your body and yeah.
• 17:10
  You know, moving with what you've brought in now, in terms of that relief, that feeling of relief, that breath out, the amount of times that I've seen that happen when a missing person is brought into the family system, the amount of times I've seen that happen that perhaps somebody's father had a child with another woman, and when we include that child in the lineup of the siblings, everybody's like, oh, they're here.
• 17:39
  Why do I feel so different?
• 17:40
  Why do I feel relieved that they're here?
• 17:43
  And that's because the family soul cannot tolerate the exclusion of anyone.
• 17:48
  And so that relief comes when, when truth becomes visible.
• 17:55
  And what I love about family consolation work is that the truth is very simple.
• 18:00
  It's devoid of masks, it's devoid of pretenses.
• 18:04
  It just is the simple, simple, simple truth.
• 18:08
  That this sibling belongs, your father's first wife belongs, your mother's first husband belongs, and their children belong, and so no one is excluded.
• 18:23
  And so that brings great, great, great, great, great relief, and particularly when we go back to previous generations.
• 18:30
  The amount of children that died under the age of five from normal illnesses such as measles, mumps, etc. And so when we begin to include all of the lost children and the children that perhaps have not been fully mourned for, there is great relief that's felt in the system.
• 18:48
  Great relief that's felt in the system.
• 18:50
  Yes, that's actually really close to home for me too.
• 18:54
  It's a very somatic experience.
• 18:59
  Yeah.
• 19:02
  My maternal grandmother was one of eight and only one of three that survived.
• 19:09
  Right.
• 19:10
  Yeah.
• 19:10
  So that was really, yeah, really strong within me and, um, and to be able to, the grief that was never shared, you know, never released down to the family, through the family system that had a big impact on my life actually.
• 19:30
  And then well, for many generations, people have been living in survival.
• 19:35
  They've been living from, from paycheck to paycheck, wondering when the next penny is coming from.
• 19:43
  Um, wondering where the next meal is going to come from, and so they lived with a lot of tragedy, and they did not have the luxury that we have in 2025 of having many, many resources available to us.
• 19:58
  We can attend family consolation workshops, we can go to therapy, we can have healing sessions, etc. And so we live.
• 20:04
  In a very privileged generation, in a very, very privileged generation, where we have so many resources open and available to us.
• 20:13
  And so, isn't it?
• 20:15
  Our generations, we have the task of mourning for that which has never been mourned for.
• 20:25
  That's a great way to put it.
• 20:27
  Because it's, it feels like it's, our ancestors wouldn't have felt safe to have been able to open up to the grief.
• 20:35
  Right, right.
• 20:36
  Like you say, they're in survival mode.
• 20:39
  They're in survival mode.
• 20:41
  And they, you know, it wasn't as if they could take a few days off work.
• 20:45
  And in previous generations, people would were lucky if they got a Sunday off.
• 20:53
  And some people didn't even get all of Sunday, they just got a few hours on Sunday off in order to go to church.
• 20:59
  That's true.
• 21:00
  Yeah.
• 21:01
  And I still, I do see that for some people who are, who aren't there yet, to be able to look at their, whatever's there that they're entangled with.
• 21:10
  I'm just thinking of a couple of people in particular around me at the moment that haven't been able to stop, given themselves the chance to stop and have a look.
• 21:19
  And it just feels like it's a continual loop, like they're just go, go, go, go, go.
• 21:24
  Well, the important thing to, to realize is that none of us are islands.
• 21:29
  We never have been islands.
• 21:31
  You know those Russian dolls?
• 21:33
  I think they're called babushkas.
• 21:34
  And if we lift it, there's somebody else inside.
• 21:36
  And if we lift that, there's somebody else inside.
• 21:39
  So our mother and our father and our grandparents literally live inside us.
• 21:44
  And so we can see that through epigenetics as well in terms of what we inherit and, and mental and emotional and hormonal conditions that get passed on from generation to generation.
• 21:58
  And all of these feelings of the unprocessed trauma get passed down as well.
• 22:02
  And we are the generation that have the freedom.
• 22:06
  You know, we can either say, this is a burden to me.
• 22:10
  I have to do a family constellation work in order to clear up the mess of my family.
• 22:15
  That's one way of looking at it.
• 22:17
  The other thing is to say, this is an absolute privilege.
• 22:20
  I have the privilege and freedom to do this that no previous generation has had before.
• 22:25
  Yes, I just feel like a real honour.
• 22:28
  Absolutely.
• 22:30
  And you're taking your work all around the world.
• 22:34
  Got your wings in Europe.
• 22:36
  I know that this year you're going to Greece and Bulgaria, Australia.
• 22:42
  Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Australia, Bali, Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia.
• 22:49
  I'm going to Egypt next week.
• 22:51
  Um, the week afterwards I'm going to Cyprus.
• 22:54
  Um, I'm a travel bunny.
• 22:57
  Yeah.
• 22:59
  Fantastic.
• 23:01
  It's so great.
• 23:02
  So on average, I give two workshops per month, two, three day workshops per month, basically 10 or 11 months per year.
• 23:10
  I do that.
• 23:11
  So I normally take off time at Christmas time, and I take the odd week off here and there as well, and I travel to see friends, uh, or spend a few days in the countryside with a friend in a cottage or something like that.
• 23:24
  So I do do some self care.
• 23:26
  But travel has been a big part of my life.
• 23:27
  Travel has been a part of my life.
• 23:29
  I took my first flight when I was six months old.
• 23:32
  So I've lived in several different countries across the world.
• 23:36
  I've lived in Australia, went to high school in Australia, went to school in Singapore when I was a child as well.
• 23:42
  I've lived in the Netherlands, was born in Germany.
• 23:45
  I have one English parent and one Gibraltarian parent.
• 23:49
  So this internationalism has just very much been a flavor of my life, and I just don't know it any other way.
• 23:57
  And I'm constantly planning to move, as my friends always know, where are you moving to now?
• 24:03
  You know, because I'll see a documentary on TV about some town somewhere on the other side of the planet, and I'll go, Oh, I'd like to go there.
• 24:10
  I'd like to live there for a year or something like that.
• 24:13
  So I'm always, I'm always planning to, I've been in London for nine years now, and every other month I'm planning to leave, but it hasn't happened yet.
• 24:26
  Oh, that's funny.
• 24:28
  Yeah.
• 24:28
  A little bit gypsy like.
• 24:31
  Yeah, very much, very much gypsy like.
• 24:33
  Well, I can blame my parents for that because we moved every three years when I was a kid.
• 24:37
  Oh.
• 24:38
  And it's a comfortable thing for you, right?
• 24:42
  Yeah, it's a very comfortable thing for me.
• 24:45
  I'm glad that I finally made it to New Zealand and thank you for the invitation there.
• 24:49
  Oh, it was such a pleasure.
• 24:51
  We had such a good time and the powerful sharings that you gifted us.
• 24:57
  Yeah, we'll be forever grateful for that.
• 25:02
  Thank you.
• 25:03
  Thank you.
• 25:04
  And, uh, we had a lot of laughs and learnt lots of things along the way too, so, yeah.
• 25:11
  I look forward to you coming back to New Zealand sometime in the future.
• 25:14
  I very much look forward to coming back, and so I'm going to be very close, um, at the end of the year in Australia, just across, across a little bit of water from you.
• 25:23
  Um, but unfortunately things don't work out this time, Coordinator.
• 25:27
  They wouldn't end up this time, no, but you know what happens around the corner, right?
• 25:31
  But you're going to be in Mexico whilst I'm there, and so, um, that didn't work out, you know.
• 25:37
  Yeah, so, what I love about the privilege of travelling the world and teaching is that I get to work in different cultures.
• 25:46
  Mm hmm.
• 25:47
  Mm hmm.
• 25:49
  And so what I've learnt is that everyone And every culture is completely different, and everyone and every culture is exactly the same.
• 26:00
  There's a basic need to be heard, to be seen, to be respected, to be held in safety, and to be loved.
• 26:12
  That never changes, and that doesn't matter whether I'm in London, or India, or Bulgaria, or Cyprus, or Australia, or New Zealand.
• 26:24
  Those ingredients never shift.
• 26:26
  They never change.
• 26:28
  So I've never come across a culture or a country where people don't need those basic things.
• 26:34
  That is the basic requirement.
• 26:36
  That is the basic requirement.
• 26:39
  And I know that every person that walks through that door onto one of my workshops, on one level or another, is saying, please just hold me.
• 26:51
  And that's my job.
• 26:53
  That's my job.
• 26:55
  That is my job, and so part of my job is simply to love people, to be in that place of stillness and peace.
• 27:08
  And to respond to that deeper request of please just hold me.
• 27:13
  Not every client is aware that they have that deeper request of please just hold me.
• 27:17
  Sometimes there are some layers there that can seem quite chaotic and they've got too many questions, et cetera.
• 27:23
  But deep down, I know that.
• 27:25
  And that is what I try to reach with each individual client by addressing that.
• 27:31
  Unspoken, but very palpable need of please just hold me, and it's really important for us as facilitators to, to recognize it, recognize it in ourselves, and recognize it in the other, because healing really takes place when two, two hearts connect, and so my heart can only connect with my client's heart if I, if, if I am present to what is within me.
• 28:02
  If I'm totally unaware of myself in that moment, then I cannot be aware of the other person.
• 28:09
  And so it really is about two hearts meeting, and that's when healing takes place.
• 28:14
  And so really, for facilitators, the focus really needs to be on loving presence, rather than technical proficiency, on loving focus, rather than technical proficiency, because constellations have a way of sorting themselves out.
• 28:36
  And with loving guidance we can come to a resolution, with loving guidance we can come to a resolution.
• 28:43
  That's so beautiful, in such an eloquent way to put it.
• 28:50
  So this is also gives you a bit of a flavor of what I'm talking about in terms of my audio book, Teachings from Awakened Heart.
• 28:59
  Basically talk about what I know and what I think I know and what we know evolves over time.
• 29:05
  I think about the two books that I wrote on family constellation work some 17, 18 years ago.
• 29:13
  And I know for a fact that there would be that there are several things that I would say differently nowadays.
• 29:20
  Yeah.
• 29:21
  Because I'm not who I was 17 years ago, and hopefully not.
• 29:29
  And what is the point of being on this path of transformation and healing if we remain the same for 17 years?
• 29:36
  Mm hmm.
• 29:37
  That's right.
• 29:37
  There will be some basic fundamentals that might be the same or slightly nuanced, um, but hopefully we, we change and we're able to look in the mirror and be honest with ourselves and transform and, um, transmute something.
• 29:54
  I offer what I know right now.
• 29:56
  this is what I know right now.
• 29:59
  And I tend to talk about what I absolutely know to be true.
• 30:04
  And with the stuff that I don't absolutely know to be true, but I suspect might be true, I generally tend to say, well, I'm not sure.
• 30:14
  I don't know.
• 30:14
  I have no qualms saying, I just don't know.
• 30:19
  Even in front of a large group of A hundred people who might be hanging off every word that I say, just to say, I don't know.
• 30:29
  I don't know.
• 30:32
  When people ask me about, um, whether certain things are ancestral or come from a past life, I just shrug my shoulders and say, I don't know.
• 30:44
  Reincarnation was certainly a very strong belief I had back in the 1990s and the early 2000s.
• 30:50
  It's no longer a strong belief, but I don't dismiss it.
• 30:54
  Yeah.
• 30:54
  But I just don't know.
• 30:58
  What I mean is, I don't know it absolutely for certain, and therefore I don't talk about it with any sense of certainty.
• 31:06
  I used to talk about it with a strong sense of certainty, because it was a strong belief that I had.
• 31:13
  And what I've learned, particularly when I look at religion, particularly when I look at, um, Politics that strong beliefs can get us into a lot of trouble.
• 31:24
  Yes.
• 31:25
  And they can cause a lot of pain and a lot of hurt and a lot of D damage is done on the back of a strong belief in something.
• 31:33
  My God is better than your God.
• 31:35
  Mm-hmm . God says there's, God says that.
• 31:39
  And so we must be very wary of strong beliefs.
• 31:42
  We must be very wary of creating dogma no matter where we are.
• 31:48
  As long as the heart is leading, we're pretty safe.
• 31:52
  Absolutely.
• 31:55
  With an awakened heart.
• 31:57
  Indeed.
• 31:57
  Or, or an awakening heart.
• 31:59
  It's not a, not a complete job.
• 32:02
  Yeah.
• 32:02
  It's true.
• 32:03
  Yeah.
• 32:03
  It's a little bit like that onion, isn't it?
• 32:06
  Yes.
• 32:08
  So, when and how did you get involved in family constellations?
• 32:13
  I have no idea.
• 32:14
  Do we have time for this?
• 32:15
  I'm just, I'm just, yeah, we have time together.
• 32:18
  Myself, I got involved in it when my father, um, began his cancer journey.
• 32:26
  And, uh, it was, I was already working as an energy healer and I would go down to Wellington.
• 32:33
  So I'm in the top of the North Island and I'd go down to the bottom of the North Island and to different places.
• 32:40
  spots around New Zealand, but it was this particular weekend I went down there and my dad had just been, had just had an operation.
• 32:47
  They were going to see if they could cut, cut the cancer out of his lungs.
• 32:51
  And they just closed him up and said, I'll go home and get your things in order.
• 32:56
  And, um, and my dad, part of our journey together was he was really good at triggering me with things.
• 33:02
  And, uh, something that happened directly after that.
• 33:06
  Really, really triggered me.
• 33:07
  So I went down to this weekend experience, we call it a on a marai in New Zealand.
• 33:15
  And um, there was a family constellation facilitator, Mark Johnson from Seattle, and he was talking about the work and sharing about it.
• 33:24
  And, um, I could already, what year was this?
• 33:28
  Oh, about 2010.
• 33:34
  Oh, okay.
• 33:34
  Around there.
• 33:35
  Okay.
• 33:35
  Yeah.
• 33:35
  Okay.
• 33:36
  Somewhere around there.
• 33:36
  Well, that's a good 15 years ago.
• 33:39
  Yep.
• 33:39
  And he was just like, you know, who wants to sit in the hot seat?
• 33:42
  And my hand went up without me even knowing.
• 33:44
  I kind of got a bit of a fright when I realized my hand was up because my inner child was, was rising up.
• 33:50
  Terrified that my dad would die and I would never have known if we, if he even loved me because there was no connection.
• 33:58
  We lived in the same household, but there was just, there was no connection.
• 34:02
  So that was my first experience.
• 34:05
  And being able to see.
• 34:07
  Sitting on the outside and being able to see my father and mother in the field, there's representatives, this huge weight that lifted off me.
• 34:17
  Because as a, in my child, uh, my inner child was just totally taking everything on board thinking it was all my fault.
• 34:25
  And being able to see that, what was behind it, between mum and dad.
• 34:31
  And just being able to leave it with them was such a big relief.
• 34:36
  Huge relief.
• 34:37
  Yeah.
• 34:37
  And I got to spend another couple of years with Dad, and we got to really solidify our relationship.
• 34:44
  So that was beautiful.
• 34:46
  You know, one of the, that's, that's very nice, Tracy.
• 34:49
  Thank you very much for that sharing.
• 34:51
  You've highlighted one of the great prizes of Family Constellation work.
• 34:56
  We can never undervalue coming to peace with our parents.
• 35:00
  Mm hmm.
• 35:03
  You know, whenever I meet somebody that's constantly raging at the world, and we've all met people who are constantly raging at the world.
• 35:10
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:11
  Then we absolutely know that they are not at peace with one or both of their parents.
• 35:18
  Because when we're, when we're not at peace with our parents, we find other things that are wrong in the world.
• 35:23
  And when we come to peace with our parents, it's not that we ignore injustice and things like that.
• 35:28
  Of course, there are things to get annoyed about and things to get angry about and things to protest about, etc. That will always continue.
• 35:36
  We no longer live with the constant angst.
• 35:40
  We can look at things for what they are.
• 35:42
  I don't like this political event.
• 35:44
  I'm going to protest against this political event, as opposed to living with this constant cycle of anger and frustration.
• 35:52
  Big, big, big difference.
• 35:56
  Absolutely.
• 35:57
  So it's been, it's been wonderful to, to connect with you.
• 36:01
  Do you have any final questions for me, Tracy?
• 36:04
  I know that you have, you have quite a bit of information on YouTube.
• 36:08
  Be here.
• 36:09
  She already shared that you've got a couple of websites, and if people want to find you on Facebook, you also have a community.
• 36:16
  Is that correct?
• 36:16
  Yeah, I do.
• 36:17
  Uh, Family Constellations International is a Facebook group, so that's on Facebook, and I think I've got about 4, 000 members there.
• 36:25
  Basically, anything you want to know about me, just type in my name, Shabasti, S H A V A S T I, on Google, and you will find me.
• 36:33
  If you go to YouTube and type in Shabasti, I've got more than 60 videos for you to listen to as well.
• 36:39
  Yeah.
• 36:40
  So grateful for you and your resources.
• 36:43
  Yeah.
• 36:43
  And I've shared with you before, but I'll share with the listeners, you know, Shavasti's books were some of the pivotal things for me in the beginning of my journey.
• 36:52
  And I'm, I remember reaching out to you.
• 36:55
  You probably don't remember this many, many years ago saying, I would love for you to come to New Zealand one day.
• 37:01
  Um, that planting that.
• 37:03
  So it happened.
• 37:04
  Yeah.
• 37:05
  It happened.
• 37:06
  Yes.
• 37:07
  So it happened.
• 37:08
  Well, I'm going to hold you to a second visit to New Zealand, because I look very much looking forward to come.
• 37:15
  And maybe I can do it two or three workshops back to back if there are enough people and stuff like that and make it a visit.
• 37:23
  That would be wonderful, wonderful.
• 37:26
  Very, it was a very wonderful journey for me.
• 37:29
  It was an honor to be invited, although it's probably the longest flight of my life.
• 37:36
  But it was very comfortable, as you do know.
• 37:38
  It was a very comfortable flight.
• 37:40
  So, yeah.
• 37:41
  Well, thank you for constantly supporting my work.
• 37:44
  Thank you for being one of my greatest fans.
• 37:48
  You're welcome.
• 37:49
  It's a pleasure.
• 37:49
  I look, I look forward to connecting with you again, Tracey.
• 37:52
  Thank you.
• 37:52
  Thank you so much.
• 37:54
  Thank you for being here and sharing your wisdom and yeah, it's always a delight.
• 37:59
  Thank you for listening.
• 38:01
  Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 38:05
  You'll find me at Tracey.
• 38:08
  Cartwright.
• 38:09
  That's Tracey with no E. dot Cartwright and or head over to my website tracycartwright.
• 38:16
  co. nz and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 38:21
  So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.