Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 164 - Beyond Hot Takes: Rethinking Dialogue and Discourse in the Photo Industry

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164 - Beyond Hot Takes: Rethinking Dialogue and Discourse in the Photo Industry · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

• 0:00
  Casey Fatchett: Hey, we're almost to the ledge.
• 0:04
  Gulden Hauer: Snug
• 0:05
  Casey Fatchett: just one more and take a rest. Hello there.
• 0:18
  Welcome to the nerd photographer podcast. I'm your host. Casey
• 0:22
  Fatchett, in addition to providing informative and
• 0:23
  entertaining photography related content, I also go on adventures
• 0:26
  with the crew of the starship Fibonacci. Right now golden hour
• 0:29
  and I are climbing up a mountain peak to meet with a local guru
• 0:33
  to get some advice on where we should go next on our journey.
• 0:36
  Gulden Hauer: Snug, snug, snug, snug, snug.
• 0:40
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I'm aware it's a difficult climb. On this
• 0:42
  episode of the podcast, I talk with photographer, educator,
• 0:45
  writer and a host of the candid frame podcast at Barry Unix
• 0:48
  perello. We discuss how conversations in the photography
• 0:52
  community are evolving, and the weight he feels as someone who
• 0:55
  has been leading a lot of those conversations over the last 25
• 0:58
  years. All that after the break,
• 1:01
  Gulden Hauer: snug, snug, snug, snug, snug, snug, snug, snug,
• 1:06
  snug, snug, snug. Listen, you
• 1:07
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• 1:10
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• 3:03
  Hello and welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
• 3:11
  host, Casey Fatchett, and I'm here today with Iberionex
• 3:15
  perello and photographer, author, teacher and podcast host
• 3:22
  of the candid frame, which I think currently has over 600
• 3:25
  episodes right now. Very nice. Thank you very much for being on
• 3:29
  the show. My pleasure. Thank you for having me on absolutely like
• 3:34
  an honor for me. And we're going to start out with the dice
• 3:37
  breaker. It's a seven. What is the best photography or business
• 3:44
  related advice you've ever received? Wow,
• 3:51
  Ibarionex Perello: that is a solid question. What is the best
• 3:54
  advice that I had be, I guess, to be just prepared, you know, I
• 4:05
  one of the photographer friends who hired me at the Huntington
• 4:08
  Library. He was all John. His name is John, and it was
• 4:15
  impressive to always see him like the day before a shoot. Be
• 4:18
  very exacting about getting all the gear prepared, because we
• 4:23
  have to photograph the gallery. Sometimes at the Huntington
• 4:26
  there's an exhibit, and so the curators want us to photograph
• 4:29
  the space so they can have a historical document of that. And
• 4:33
  even though it's fairly straightforward, he was always
• 4:36
  very exacting in terms of preparing leading up to the
• 4:39
  shoot for the next day, and that's something that I have
• 4:43
  sort of followed, because inevitably, there's some little
• 4:46
  piece of equipment that you think is in the case, and it's
• 4:49
  not in the case. And so I have sort of, I came to that sort of
• 4:55
  practice late, but I'm glad that I do it now, because I'm now
• 4:58
  very, very dutiful. Making sure that everything that I need is
• 5:02
  in the case, is in the kit, so that at the last minute, I don't
• 5:06
  forget something.
• 5:08
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those things
• 5:09
  that I do. I have, like, a checklist that I kind of go
• 5:13
  through before I do a lot of weddings. That's, like, a huge
• 5:16
  portion of my business, but it's like the day before, where I'm
• 5:18
  going through and I'm checking the batteries, how charged up
• 5:22
  are the batteries do I have? Are all of my like, memory cards
• 5:26
  formatted properly? Like, I'm not going to go out there, like,
• 5:30
  show up and like, Oh, I've got six shots left on this card. You
• 5:34
  know, those sorts of things, like going through the proper
• 5:38
  Preparation Prevents Poor Performance. And
• 5:42
  Ibarionex Perello: I also do, like, a walk through at the end,
• 5:44
  you know, all the spaces that I was shooting in, I will walk
• 5:47
  through just to make sure that something that I put down, I
• 5:50
  didn't forget. You know, a cable, a lens cap, whatever.
• 5:54
  Casey Fatchett: Well, that's when I could do better at. And I
• 5:56
  don't know if it's just my anxiety that makes me think I
• 5:58
  forgot something, because I'll get it in the car, and I'm like,
• 6:02
  on my way home, and I go, I did it last night. I had an event
• 6:04
  that was photographing last night, and I seriously took my
• 6:08
  camera bag, put it in the back of my car. Was driving out of
• 6:12
  Manhattan, and I was in the tunnel, and I was like, did I
• 6:15
  even put my bag in the car? Because I couldn't get to the
• 6:19
  back of my car for where it was parked, so I had to pull it out,
• 6:23
  and I was just kept, like, going over my head and thinking, Did I
• 6:25
  actually do that? They actually is that? And I'm like, nope. I
• 6:28
  heard the I heard the bag shift as I was driving, so I knew
• 6:31
  that, no, it's back there. I You have a very long record as both
• 6:39
  a photographer and an interviewer, Interviewer on your
• 6:43
  show. But I'm curious if there was a different path that you
• 6:48
  could have taken creatively. What would that be?
• 6:53
  Ibarionex Perello: Oh, I think fiction writer probably. Who's
• 6:56
  you
• 6:56
  Casey Fatchett: know, who's your favorite? Give me top three
• 7:00
  authors that you like, authors
• 7:03
  Ibarionex Perello: off the top of my head, James Baldwin, F
• 7:11
  Scott Fitzgerald, just because I've read The Great Gatsby. I
• 7:15
  don't know how many times it's a book that I always revisit. I
• 7:19
  don't know what it is about that book, but probably, you know,
• 7:24
  every five or seven years I pick it up, and every few books that
• 7:26
  I reread over and over again, but for some reason, I really
• 7:29
  gravitate to that book. And then lastly, will probably definitely
• 7:33
  would be Junot Diaz, just because of a shared Dominican
• 7:37
  heritage, and he was one of the first authors who whose work I
• 7:42
  looked at and I saw my life reflected in it. So, yeah, those
• 7:47
  three are the first three that come to mind.
• 7:49
  Casey Fatchett: So would you be writing, like, period fiction?
• 7:53
  Would you be like, what are what kind of fiction would you write?
• 7:55
  Ibarionex Perello: You know, I've always gravitated to
• 7:57
  speculative, speculative fiction. I've always enjoyed
• 8:00
  that like Murakami. Yeah, I really like Murakami's work,
• 8:06
  just because it's, it's our world, but just a little twist
• 8:09
  to it, I've always favorite, favorite that work just for the
• 8:12
  kind of reading where I just take pleasure in I loved Harlan
• 8:15
  Ellison. I was it was blessed enough to get to know him, and I
• 8:20
  really just had so much fun with his writing. But I've always
• 8:26
  enjoyed that, both in film and in television and in books. You
• 8:29
  know, speculative fiction, not really hard science fiction. I'm
• 8:32
  not, I'm not that guy. I'm not going to be that's me. I finally
• 8:36
  got around to reading dune several years ago, the first
• 8:39
  four novels,
• 8:40
  Casey Fatchett: those are the only ones you should read. By
• 8:42
  the way, it gets weirder and don't read anymore.
• 8:46
  Ibarionex Perello: But, you know, hard science fiction, like
• 8:48
  as I'm off and stuff like that, I just didn't get into it when I
• 8:50
  was a kid. And I think that's the that's the perfect age of,
• 8:54
  like, preteen, to get into the really hard science science
• 8:57
  fiction. And I've read it, but it's not something that really
• 9:01
  drive a lot of joy from reading. But yeah,
• 9:06
  Casey Fatchett: I was a physics kid's major before I got
• 9:10
  anything and so that, like, the science fiction stuff, like we
• 9:13
  mentioned dune. Dune was like, I've read all the novels, but
• 9:16
  like, I wish I had just stopped at the fourth one. I just wish
• 9:21
  that I would have stopped with the fourth one and like, and I
• 9:25
  find so much in those books. It's very interesting that I
• 9:27
  think could be taught, especially today. It teaches you
• 9:31
  about propaganda, economics, ecology, all these things I
• 9:38
  think that are that would be important for people to know
• 9:42
  about, but I get what you're saying, like, there's, there's,
• 9:45
  seems to be, like, almost like, a window for, like, if you're
• 9:48
  going to be really into that, like, it's, it's generally like
• 9:51
  your teenagers, like, is going to determine whether or not
• 9:54
  that's if something you're into really get stuck in.
• 9:58
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, I remember just. Being a real fan
• 10:00
  of Jack Finney, who wrote, I forget the name, the time travel
• 10:04
  novel he wrote time after time, or something like that. He wrote
• 10:09
  several signs at time travel. And always had. I always
• 10:13
  gravitated to books that explored time travel.
• 10:17
  Casey Fatchett: If I like time travel and you want to see a
• 10:19
  movie that's gonna, I don't know if you've seen it. It's called
• 10:22
  primer. Yes, I've seen it. Oh, my God, that movie is fantastic.
• 10:27
  That isn't my top 10 movies of all time. Like, because it's
• 10:30
  just like it that sits with you for a really long like, I still
• 10:33
  turn to my wife and go, like, you remember in primer and like,
• 10:40
  how long would I have to be waiting? Yeah, just the nuts.
• 10:45
  Anyway. So kind of on the same note, I'm wondering if there's
• 10:51
  you, if there's if there's been a moment, because something that
• 10:54
  I've gone through, I've been a photographer for, you know, more
• 10:58
  than 20 years, and I kind of, like find myself kind of every
• 11:02
  once in a while reevaluating and going, is this still what I want
• 11:07
  to do? Has there ever been a moment when you've wanted to
• 11:09
  pull back from photography? Or,
• 11:10
  Ibarionex Perello: yeah, there was one. There was one moment I
• 11:12
  forget exactly, think it was in my 20s or early 30s. I still was
• 11:19
  working at Nikon, so yeah, probably mid 20s, and I just
• 11:24
  felt stuck. I felt like I wasn't making any progress as a
• 11:28
  photographer. I was thinking a lot of pictures, but I felt like
• 11:31
  it just was nothing was good. And I said, I just give up. And
• 11:31
  I remember putting all my equipment in the closet, putting
• 11:31
  in the bag, and putting it back in the closet, and I think it
• 11:40
  probably sat there for six or nine months, something like
• 11:45
  that. And then one day, I was like, What the hell am I doing?
• 11:47
  And I pulled it back out and and started making photographs
• 11:51
  again. But I think that was like the one time I ever really
• 11:56
  considered giving it up. But after a while, it's just like it
• 11:58
  just called to me. And so they dusted it off and went back out
• 12:02
  there and started making pictures.
• 12:04
  Casey Fatchett: I'm curious what made you feel like that you
• 12:06
  should put it down like it, because there's a lot of people,
• 12:08
  I think, deal with imposter syndrome, and that term gets
• 12:13
  thrown around a lot. But I mean, I still feel like sometimes when
• 12:18
  I when I like, oh man, am I really like I'll I don't know if
• 12:23
  it's my own anxiety or what it is, but I think a lot of people
• 12:26
  deal with that there's just this feeling like, am I producing
• 12:33
  work that is like, on a level with what people think that I
• 12:38
  should be producing like or that I deserve the accolade, not
• 12:45
  necessarily accolades, but like just the the positive thoughts
• 12:51
  that people send my way for my work.
• 12:54
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, I think I was largely comparing myself
• 12:56
  to other people whose work I really admired, and then just
• 13:00
  found my images just falling short of that, yeah, and really
• 13:03
  understanding why that was, and then just going out there and
• 13:06
  making lots of pictures and then continually feeling frustrated
• 13:09
  that I felt that the images were subpar, and it's just reality
• 13:14
  was I wasn't there yet. You know, I was making good
• 13:18
  pictures, but I just wasn't making pictures that were on par
• 13:21
  with that, which is really an unfair comparison, because some
• 13:24
  of the people I was comparing myself to it or been shooting
• 13:27
  for for decades, you know, professionally. And so the fact
• 13:31
  that I wasn't able to use light or create compositions that were
• 13:35
  comparable to some of the people that I was looking at, you know,
• 13:39
  I was just creating a situation where I was just doomed to fail,
• 13:45
  rather than just saying, you know, everyone starts somewhere,
• 13:48
  and I just need to shoot and practice and know that the
• 13:51
  majority of pictures that I make are not going to work, but that
• 13:55
  they're all towards, you know, all those failures are towards
• 13:59
  the goal of being able to learn from The failure, so that you
• 14:01
  can improve and be consistent, you know? And I figured that out
• 14:05
  at some point. And you know, now I completely accept the fact
• 14:10
  that the great majority of photographs that I make fall
• 14:12
  short, and that's just part of the process.
• 14:14
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that there's, it's it gets said
• 14:16
  a lot. And I mean, I just got done having a conversation with
• 14:18
  somebody on Reddit about this was, I was saying, like, Don't
• 14:21
  compare yourself to other people. I mean, it's fine to
• 14:24
  look at somebody's work and go like, Oh man, that's a great
• 14:27
  shot. And like, it's beautiful. And I would like to figure out
• 14:31
  how they took that or whatever. But don't sit there and compare
• 14:34
  yourself to where they are, either artistically or in their
• 14:37
  career, whatever. And somebody came back and was like, Oh,
• 14:41
  well, you know, I don't see why it's a problem. Like, why should
• 14:43
  I not be wishing I could, if I see somebody who does landscape
• 14:47
  photography, why shouldn't I be wishing that I could just travel
• 14:50
  all the time and and take pictures of cool landscapes? And
• 14:53
  I was like, You really haven't talked to a professional
• 14:57
  landscape photographer then, because that is. Not what
• 15:00
  they're doing, and many of them live near, or at least within
• 15:06
  driving distance of the places that they photograph most often,
• 15:11
  and they're probably only traveling. The vast majority of
• 15:14
  them are only traveling probably once or twice a year and taking
• 15:18
  a ton of photos on that trip, and that's like the red like
• 15:21
  spending the rest of their year, just like editing those photos
• 15:24
  and picking out the five or six from that that are going to be
• 15:29
  like portfolio pieces. Like, what really like, Yeah, this is
• 15:35
  understanding that everybody has a, I say, like a different
• 15:39
  journey, like some people achieve commercial success very
• 15:44
  quickly, just for whatever reason, and to, like, sit there
• 15:47
  and, like, compare yourself, like, Oh, why am I not selling
• 15:52
  as much as they do? Or booking so bad for you?
• 15:56
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, yeah. Because it's, I mean, it's just
• 15:59
  just just the very nature, because we're always learning
• 16:01
  from other people's work. It's in the photography. I think the
• 16:04
  great majority of people are, quote, unquote, self taught. You
• 16:07
  know, they don't, which means that they're not taking formal
• 16:10
  classes or things like that. So you're learning from looking at
• 16:14
  other people's work. Now, most people are educated about
• 16:17
  photography on YouTube, which is a whole different conversation,
• 16:22
  but nevertheless, you're looking at what other people are doing
• 16:26
  and emulating that, and trying to learn how those people made
• 16:29
  the photographs, so you can learn the technical aspect, and
• 16:33
  then hopefully at some point, be able to express something
• 16:35
  personal, Having learned that that technique. But you know,
• 16:42
  the trap is, you know, comparing yourself, and you're to someone
• 16:47
  who has achieved more than you, and then feeling like, somehow
• 16:50
  they're innately talented, and they possess something that you
• 16:54
  don't have, which is really not the case. It's just like, No,
• 16:57
  they just put in, they just put in the time they practiced and
• 17:01
  they, they strive for consistency. Yeah, they've,
• 17:06
  Casey Fatchett: they've built the career. It's like, it's,
• 17:08
  it's sort of the, I think, a great analogy in that that make
• 17:12
  it very easy to kind of tell people like to stop doing that.
• 17:16
  It's like, you know, I don't know, I had posted some like,
• 17:18
  What's in the bag, what's in my bag. Like, I'm going to wedding.
• 17:21
  Like, I got two camera bodies, I got all these lenses and stuff.
• 17:24
  A lot of it is for, like, redundancy, in case something
• 17:27
  breaks, because, you know, I can't, like, go out and, like,
• 17:30
  get a new lens while I'm, like, at this event. And this was, I
• 17:35
  don't know, it was probably during the pandemic. And
• 17:38
  somebody replied like, Oh man, I wish I had, like, your kit, and
• 17:43
  it's like, that's 20 years. It's 20 years. And some of those
• 17:48
  lenses I've had for like, over a decade, and like, you know,
• 17:51
  these things like that, that's 20 years of, like, building up
• 17:51
  events. Don't start like, you just started out. You've been
• 17:51
  doing this for a year. Don't think that you're gonna like,
• 17:59
  Don't and a don't put yourself in debt to like, Oh, don't. No,
• 18:02
  no. It's not worth it. It's definitely not worth it.
• 18:05
  Ibarionex Perello: And when I see young, you know, young
• 18:08
  photographers who have like, a 10 year old digital camera or
• 18:12
  even a 30 year old film camera and producing amazing results,
• 18:15
  is like, man, it's just not about the kit. Yeah, as much as
• 18:18
  you know, I like, I like new toys. Okay, I'm no different
• 18:23
  than anybody else, but I also have a healthy perspective in
• 18:26
  terms of, I don't need that to necessarily do what I need to
• 18:30
  do. And I just see so many examples of people who are
• 18:33
  working with stuff that is not the latest and the greatest, but
• 18:37
  they're producing exceptional work. And it's just like, it's,
• 18:39
  it's making the choice to do, do what you can with what you have.
• 18:43
  Yeah, so it matters, and putting in the time to go out and do it,
• 18:46
  not using it, some excuse did not make it work.
• 18:51
  Casey Fatchett: I think that that is the thing that is
• 18:54
  holding a lot of people back, is the making that excuse like,
• 18:56
  well, I don't have the gear to do. What can you do with the
• 19:01
  gear that you have? Like, get out there, take pictures, figure
• 19:05
  out what you can do, push it like that. Like, I mean, there
• 19:10
  are times when I look back at, you know, pictures that I made
• 19:16
  earlier on, and I think, you know what, I was way more
• 19:18
  innovative when I had less, because I had to be yeah,
• 19:25
  Ibarionex Perello: there's a photographer out of San
• 19:26
  Francisco, Richard coachy Hernandez. He's a
• 19:31
  photojournalist, primarily documentary photography. He
• 19:34
  teach, teaches at the Graduate School of Journalism at
• 19:37
  Berkeley, at least he did, and he had an incredible body of
• 19:42
  work on Instagram that was made just by with his phone. I mean,
• 19:46
  he had, like, he had all that other other stuff, but he just
• 19:49
  made this amazing body of work that was just about the camera
• 19:53
  and using a variety of different filters to manipulate the image
• 19:56
  and and I look at that work, and it's just, I. Astounding,
• 20:01
  astounding. And all he was using a phone. And this is, I first
• 20:05
  discovered him about over 10 years ago. So back in the day,
• 20:08
  he was using, you know, whatever generation, iPhone, yeah, time,
• 20:14
  but still didn't matter. And I look at, I look at what he did
• 20:17
  with just that, which is that phone, and it's like, there's no
• 20:22
  excuse.
• 20:22
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, you can create like, and then I'm sure
• 20:25
  you get this question all the time people, I'm thinking about
• 20:28
  buying a camera for my kid or for, you know, so and so, for
• 20:32
  their birthday or for the holidays or something. And my
• 20:36
  question is always like, well, what kind of stuff they like
• 20:39
  taking pictures of? And there's like, no, like, oh, they just
• 20:41
  kind of, like, taking pictures of everything. And I'm like,
• 20:44
  just make sure they've got a good phone camera. It's like,
• 20:46
  right now, like, like, at first, like, they can, they can do so
• 20:50
  much with that, like, especially if it's a kid. I'm like, before
• 20:53
  you go out and spend 1000s of dollars on a bunch of stuff,
• 20:58
  like, figure out what they like to take pictures of, what kind
• 21:02
  of setup would be best for like, because if they decide they want
• 21:05
  to take pictures of birds, it's gonna be totally different than
• 21:07
  pictures of like, you know, they like taking pictures of
• 21:10
  landscapes or street photography or whatever, whatever they enjoy
• 21:13
  doing. It's gonna be completely different setup. So, like, just
• 21:17
  make sure they got a good phone camera. They can figure out,
• 21:19
  like, what they want to do. And then go from there, yeah?
• 21:22
  Ibarionex Perello: And if they really, if they get to the point
• 21:24
  where they starting to get serious, go out and get a kh and
• 21:28
  buy a used camera, yes, seven, seven years old. And then when
• 21:33
  they really get into it, then they can make the investment.
• 21:36
  But you could get a nice kit with a body and a lens for like,
• 21:39
  less than 500 bucks.
• 21:41
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, they can find, yeah, I again, not a
• 21:44
  sponsor. Ke H, great for, like, I would if they want to sponsor
• 21:48
  me. Fine, go ahead, but yeah, definitely, like, that's my go
• 21:52
  to for used, yeah, there's, I have bought so much used film
• 22:00
  stuff from them. Yeah, okay, that I got back into shooting
• 22:04
  film a few years ago, and now it's becoming a habit.
• 22:11
  Ibarionex Perello: And I've got another point when I want to buy
• 22:13
  something new. Is like, okay, when we're gonna sell, right?
• 22:17
  Casey Fatchett: Seriously, yeah. What do I not need anymore?
• 22:20
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, there's a lens that I want, and I have
• 22:22
  the money to just buy it out, right? But I'm like, no, let me
• 22:26
  sell some stuff so that I don't have to go into the wallet to
• 22:29
  pay for it, yeah? Because there's some stuff that's
• 22:33
  sitting around here that I'm not using. And I said, just, just
• 22:35
  let it go and use that money to buy, buy the lens. So that's
• 22:41
  what kind of attitude now, before I add anything to the
• 22:43
  kid, is like, what can, what can I get rid of?
• 22:45
  Casey Fatchett: Oh, I mean that that there's such a, like, a
• 22:50
  photographer thing I don't want. We don't let go of our boxes. I
• 22:56
  don't doing I still have, I still have boxes from, like,
• 22:59
  cameras I threw out a bunch a few years ago. But like, I have,
• 23:04
  like, I still have, like, camera body boxes for, like, oh, yeah,
• 23:08
  that. Like, do I still have that camera? Like, I can't even
• 23:11
  remember if I sold that off, if I traded that in for something
• 23:15
  and like, I but I still have the box, like, in my basement. It's
• 23:18
  like,
• 23:18
  Ibarionex Perello: yeah, about a year half to two years ago, I
• 23:21
  got rid of all the boxes because they were just taking up so much
• 23:24
  space, right? And I was just like, holding on to them,
• 23:29
  because at some point I may sell it, right?
• 23:31
  Casey Fatchett: I might more for it. Oh, if I have the original
• 23:34
  packaging, yeah.
• 23:36
  Ibarionex Perello: And I was just like, just, let me just get
• 23:37
  rid of it. It's not gonna make that much difference. And it was
• 23:40
  just like it was just sucking air from having all those things
• 23:45
  there.
• 23:45
  Casey Fatchett: So I was in a one bedroom New York City
• 23:48
  apartment, and like when my wife and I moved to our house in New
• 23:52
  Jersey, she I was emptying out my closet because there were
• 23:58
  only two closets. We each had one closet and the whole above
• 24:03
  the rack area of my closet was full of boxes of stuff. And she
• 24:10
  was like, What is even in those I'm like, Hmm, I don't even know
• 24:13
  if there's anything. So why? Why have you taken up so much space
• 24:18
  empty boxes? So that was a big, that was a big spring cleaning
• 24:24
  of empty gear boxes.
• 24:27
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, that's pretty much automatic. Now for
• 24:29
  me, I get the kit. I get the kit, you know, take everything
• 24:32
  out of it, and then it's on the trash.
• 24:36
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I'm, I'm getting much, much better at it,
• 24:40
  like as I there was a, actually, you was using a camera body box
• 24:47
  to, like, hold up my subwoofer for a little while. And I went,
• 24:49
  and I was like, No, I gotta get something to actually, I gotta
• 24:53
  get, I gotta put something under that. Like, I can't actually
• 24:57
  leave that there. That's gotta, that's gotta that box. Go, yeah,
• 25:02
  so I'm curious. I've done a lot of interviews on this show, but
• 25:08
  you have done, you're like, again, the six hundreds,
• 25:11
  whatever has any interview that you've done fundamentally shift,
• 25:17
  shifted your view of photography or the photography community,
• 25:24
  Ibarionex Perello: I can really speak to a singular interview
• 25:26
  that that did that, but I think one of the things that has sort
• 25:32
  of developed over time, and kind of serves as a kind of a mantra
• 25:36
  for me, is that there's no singular path for making a life
• 25:40
  revolving around photography. I think early on, I felt that
• 25:44
  there was certain, there was like a real rigid outline in
• 25:48
  terms of what you needed to do in order to make a career,
• 25:52
  right? You had to do X, Y and Z in order to get there and and I
• 25:56
  quickly learned from talking to all these people that, oh,
• 25:59
  that's just a myth. You know that I talked to so many people
• 26:03
  who start in very different ways and make a career, make a life
• 26:08
  from photography that is, is not so so easily defined. They're
• 26:16
  people who, you know, they're people who make a career but
• 26:19
  never leave their nine to five job, right? And then people who
• 26:24
  make substantive work, and they're still working doing
• 26:27
  whatever their cab driver or dentist or whatever it is
• 26:29
  they're doing, and then they else, and they they basically
• 26:32
  fund their interest in photography by their by the
• 26:35
  regular gig, rather than relying on photography to be their
• 26:38
  source, primary source of income, right? And, you know,
• 26:45
  there are people who come to photography late in life, right,
• 26:49
  and are again able to create substantive bodies of work, even
• 26:56
  though they came to it in their 50s or their 60s, or sometimes
• 26:59
  even later. So it was that would that was kind of a clarity for
• 27:03
  me. It was just like, Oh, wow. You know, you can have
• 27:06
  photography be a big part of your your personal and creative
• 27:10
  life, but there's no like, approved structure that you have
• 27:18
  to adhere to in order to make that happen. So I think that's
• 27:21
  what I've taken away from my conversations with people, and
• 27:25
  it's one of the things I when I talk about the podcast. It's one
• 27:28
  of the things that I like to emphasize, especially the people
• 27:31
  who are early on in their photographic journey, where they
• 27:36
  always think in terms of black and white, what I should do,
• 27:39
  what I shouldn't do and can or can't and all that stuff. It's
• 27:42
  like, you know, it's, it's not, it's, it's not dentistry, you
• 27:48
  know, it's not brain surgery, it's photography. And you can
• 27:52
  approach it in a myriad of different ways.
• 27:55
  Casey Fatchett: I mean it, yeah, I think that it's the there's,
• 27:58
  it's those sorts of things. Like, if you hear, have to
• 28:04
  immediately start, like applying the grains of salt immediately
• 28:09
  to that advice, whatever those sorts of like, extreme you must,
• 28:15
  or you have to, or you like you can, you can't approach it this
• 28:20
  way. You can do it in any number of ways. Like you said, Gosh, I
• 28:23
  can't even remember who that photographer was. You mentioned
• 28:26
  cab driver, the guy who, there's a New York cabbie, yeah,
• 28:29
  pictures of, you know, out the window and, like, end of his,
• 28:33
  like, the his fare,
• 28:34
  Ibarionex Perello: Rodriguez is, I think he's his surname, yeah.
• 28:37
  Casey Fatchett: But, like, those photos are incredible. Just made
• 28:40
  me think of that there's Okay. So here's a question for you, do
• 28:45
  you think that that is in our sort of, I don't know, like
• 28:51
  looking at historically for photography, that now we are
• 28:57
  sort of driven by, like, social media in a lot of ways, like
• 29:00
  there's, there's a lot of, I think for people who are
• 29:03
  starting out, there's a feeling or need that I have to succeed,
• 29:12
  like on social media, to be noticed in Any way, and if I'm
• 29:19
  not getting like that recognition. Then I'm just, I'm
• 29:24
  doing it wrong. Somehow I like, I'm not, and I think that that
• 29:28
  leads to people trying to be copycats, whatever. I'm curious,
• 29:31
  like, historically, that sort of thing. Like, back in like, film,
• 29:34
  the days of film, we weren't so connected to what each other was
• 29:39
  doing.
• 29:42
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, I think that social media, what it
• 29:45
  created, was a quicker way for you to get noticed with respect
• 29:52
  to your photography, but at the same time, it didn't allow you
• 29:58
  to really. Gestate in terms of your creativity, and get to the
• 30:03
  point where you really developed as a photographer. You
• 30:07
  developed, developed your way of seeing and curating your own
• 30:09
  work, and then getting getting to the point that you were
• 30:12
  quote, unquote, ready to showcase and share your work and
• 30:16
  to sell it. Now you could take a picture and immediately post it
• 30:20
  to Instagram or to Facebook without really any, any effort
• 30:24
  for curation at all, you know, and then based on people's
• 30:28
  responses in terms of liking, that was that, was it? So I
• 30:33
  think that in terms of, you know, that's the way people sort
• 30:38
  of evaluated, quote, unquote, success, is by the number of
• 30:42
  people that got to follow them and the number of likes they
• 30:45
  could get to their images. But that doesn't necessarily
• 30:48
  translate into you being an effective visual communicator.
• 30:54
  In terms of the work, you might be able to develop a skill where
• 30:58
  you can get likes on Instagram, you know, and that's why you see
• 31:03
  some photographers create the same sort of style and esthetic,
• 31:07
  and all their images are pretty much exactly the same, because
• 31:12
  they, they've, they've understood the algorithm, and to
• 31:16
  some degree, that has allowed some photographers to create a
• 31:22
  niche for themselves and maybe trans it translates into a more
• 31:28
  an opportunity, either professionally as a to get work
• 31:33
  or something like that. But again, it robs the photographer
• 31:40
  of a period where they're developing, and if they get tied
• 31:45
  to, oh, I got to get likes. I got to get, you know, I got to
• 31:48
  get attention. You're creating work for that, for that purpose,
• 31:53
  for that end result, rather than creating work solely for
• 31:58
  yourself, right? And being willing to make mistakes and
• 32:02
  work on long term projects that don't give you the immediate
• 32:07
  feedback and affirmation that social media does.
• 32:13
  Casey Fatchett: I think that the way you're talking about like,
• 32:15
  not allowing yourself to like gestate and sort of like come
• 32:19
  out of the the chrysalis, and like, as a fully formed your
• 32:22
  butterfly, or whatever, like, yeah, that sort of thing is, is
• 32:27
  because you're rushing yourself, you're like, rushing for like, I
• 32:30
  have to be successful, or else it's not worth it. And I think
• 32:34
  that another thing, I mean, based on that, and something
• 32:37
  that I experienced a little bit, was not allowing myself to
• 32:41
  evolve. Like, I felt like, I, oh, I have it, and I'm getting a
• 32:46
  little bit of recognition, like, for my business, so I got to
• 32:50
  stick to this. I can't, I can't, you know, divert into another
• 32:55
  area, yeah, because I gotta, K stay here, because this is where
• 32:59
  I'm experiencing some success, like, even where I, you know, I
• 33:03
  didn't come up in like, the days of social media, but like, there
• 33:05
  was, there's sort of sense of a sense of like, okay, now I'm
• 33:09
  having people are coming to me for this type of work, and there
• 33:14
  was this, like, a feeling of like, okay, I've got to stick to
• 33:17
  this. Because if I don't, if I change it all, like, then people
• 33:20
  aren't, like, if I want to grow I can't, you know, like, divert
• 33:25
  from, from that. Yeah.
• 33:27
  Ibarionex Perello: And in terms of the particularly with wedding
• 33:29
  photography, gonna sort of make sense if you have a particular
• 33:33
  style that people are gravitating to, you know, you
• 33:38
  know, some photographers that shoot just black and white.
• 33:42
  They're photographers who, I mean, everybody does documentary
• 33:45
  style now, but I remember, but you know, back in the during the
• 33:48
  Pleistocene, where doing more traditional work, and all of a
• 33:52
  sudden, photographers started doing more footage, photo
• 33:55
  journalistic work, they really stood out. And then they, they
• 34:00
  were the odd man out in terms of that particular style, but
• 34:04
  people who really responded to it, and so they were able to
• 34:08
  create a niche that really made them very, very unique, very
• 34:15
  distinctive. And so people started gravitating to the work.
• 34:18
  But eventually the entire industry sort of skewed towards
• 34:21
  that, gravitated that way. But I think that, you know, regardless
• 34:24
  of what kind of photography you sort of favor, is like, if you
• 34:29
  do find that there's an approach or an esthetic that you like to
• 34:34
  follow for your own self, for your own gratification, that
• 34:38
  that can be marketable, you know, especially if you're
• 34:41
  trying to earn a living from it and that, I think that's all
• 34:43
  well and good, you know, sometimes you do have to define
• 34:46
  yourself in that you can't just be this, you know, this
• 34:49
  generalist people want to, kind of know they want you to. They
• 34:53
  want you in a box, yeah, which you know you may not
• 34:56
  particularly like, but when you're trying to sell your
• 34:58
  services, it makes sense. For people to kind of understand who
• 35:02
  you are and how you do it, and what you're delivering to them,
• 35:05
  and then it kind of makes sense to, you know, reproduce that
• 35:11
  work and share it in order to get more work along those lines.
• 35:15
  Casey Fatchett: I think that that's you gotta. You've got to
• 35:18
  solve a problem, whatever type of photography you're trying if
• 35:23
  you're doing it in some commercial way, you're selling
• 35:25
  it to somebody. If you're selling prints people want art
• 35:29
  on their wall, you're solving a problem by providing like that.
• 35:33
  You have to figure out what problem you're solving for
• 35:36
  people. I think for me, it was a again, the wedding photography
• 35:41
  stuff, it wasn't necessarily like it was I didn't think that
• 35:45
  I could. And when I think I had, my biggest breakthrough was
• 35:49
  realizing, like, Oh, this is the thing that I like doing most
• 35:54
  about this. And people just don't know how to formulate that
• 36:00
  into words, like my clients, and until I started asking them
• 36:04
  questions afterwards, and be like, What did you like about
• 36:07
  these photos? Why did you come to me like? And then when people
• 36:10
  like, would come to me, starting to ask them, What about my
• 36:12
  photos? Brought you here, like, made you get in touch with me,
• 36:17
  and then finding out, like, oh, I can lean more in that
• 36:20
  direction I can like, I thought I was in my groove, but I really
• 36:24
  didn't find it until I allowed myself to kind of take a bit of
• 36:29
  a turn and go deeper into it. Because I was afraid, well, if I
• 36:32
  do that, then I'm going to lose what work I have. And instead, I
• 36:35
  actually went in a direction that strengthened my business a
• 36:39
  lot more by like, allowing myself to change and and another
• 36:44
  thing I think that's sort of like parallel that is like, you
• 36:46
  don't always have to, like, if you want to do things for
• 36:48
  yourself creatively that are separate from your business,
• 36:52
  that's totally fine. You don't have to monetize it, like, you
• 36:55
  can have something that's creative that is not part of
• 36:58
  your business, and
• 36:59
  Ibarionex Perello: you don't want to create a situation where
• 37:02
  you create an approach to making pictures that you completely
• 37:05
  dislike. Yeah, it's marketable and all that other stuff. And
• 37:09
  when you when you have to go out there and shoot it, you go, oh,
• 37:11
  god damn it. I gotta go out there and do this again. You
• 37:15
  know, just I much prefer to shoot things the way I like to
• 37:19
  shoot them. And I've accepted jobs where I was I chose to
• 37:24
  shoot in a different way just because I felt that's what they
• 37:27
  were expecting me to do. Always hated those jobs. Always it was
• 37:32
  my own fault, right? Because rather saying, this is the way I
• 37:36
  do it, and you know, this is this is what I'm going to do,
• 37:40
  because this is how I feel comfortable, you know,
• 37:44
  expressing myself with the camera. But, you know,
• 37:47
  insecurity, yeah, more than anything else. So I would change
• 37:51
  it, and then they, they were more than likely happy with the
• 37:55
  results, but I sure wasn't happy with the experience.
• 37:58
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that's again, that's kind of
• 38:00
  that insecurity imposter syndrome, like, oh, is this?
• 38:03
  This is what they want. This is what they this is what they
• 38:06
  want. They don't want my, my flavor, or whatever I normally
• 38:11
  bring to this. I think it's having, like you said, having
• 38:13
  that confidence in yourself and like, this is what I this is
• 38:17
  what I do. I think that it's hard for people, especially
• 38:21
  starting out, who are just like, trying to get enough jobs, like,
• 38:26
  Oh, I gotta have enough. They say yes to jobs that don't fit
• 38:29
  their style or whatever. And coming to the earlier you can
• 38:36
  come to grips with that, like, the you're not the right person
• 38:38
  for everybody, the better off you're going to be because I
• 38:43
  said yes to jobs for sure that I was not the right photographer
• 38:46
  for and it left a bad taste in their mouth, and like, I didn't
• 38:50
  feel good about it, because I just, I just wasn't the person.
• 38:54
  And now I'm way more confident saying, like, I could take this
• 38:58
  job, I could get the paycheck, but it's not right. It's like,
• 39:03
  it's gonna, it's gonna be a pain for me. They're not gonna like
• 39:06
  it. It's gonna reflect poorly on me, like, I'm just not the
• 39:10
  person for this. Here's somebody I know who's that's who you're
• 39:12
  looking for.
• 39:14
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, and I've gotten the attitude now
• 39:16
  that I'll, I'll price it at a level. If it took a job like
• 39:19
  that, I'll price it at a place where I expect them to say no,
• 39:22
  but if they do say Yes, it'll be worth it to me, yeah, yeah.
• 39:28
  Casey Fatchett: I think for me, when I do that is like, when
• 39:31
  it's a job where they're like, No, we don't have like that much
• 39:34
  in the budget. You're like, I'm not the right person for this.
• 39:36
  It makes it a little easier for me to say no, but if they can,
• 39:39
  they can bump up the budget then, yeah, definitely make it,
• 39:43
  make it worth my while to shoot out of my comfort zone. Okay,
• 39:48
  you've been doling out some advice here. Do you ever feel
• 39:51
  like with your position in the photography industry? And I
• 39:56
  mean, you've got one of the longest running, if not the
• 39:59
  longest, consent. Negatively running podcast in, like, the
• 40:02
  photography world. I think at this point, maybe there's like
• 40:05
  one or two other ones that might
• 40:06
  Ibarionex Perello: still Yeah, I think the only other one that is
• 40:09
  continually producing is it this weekend, Martin Bailey. Martin
• 40:13
  Bailey Photography podcast. He's out of Japan. He started the
• 40:17
  year before I did, or it's like six months. Other one was tips
• 40:21
  from the top floor. But I don't know if Chris Marquart still
• 40:25
  regularly produces his show. And you know, not sure about this
• 40:28
  week in photography, they've gone in and out of production.
• 40:32
  Casey Fatchett: They've, yeah, they've had like changes over
• 40:35
  the years. But do you ever feel like pressure to be like the
• 40:39
  wise photographer giving advice.
• 40:44
  Ibarionex Perello: No, no, because it's really about the
• 40:46
  photographers and I'm interviewing, so I it's this was
• 40:50
  not really about me for the most but I'm
• 40:53
  Casey Fatchett: not talking about, like, just the show. I'm
• 40:55
  talking about like, in general.
• 40:59
  Ibarionex Perello: Oh no, no. I let people know I don't know. I
• 41:02
  don't know. I don't, I don't know. I know enough right to do
• 41:08
  what I need to do, and I know, I know that I can't. I'm a good
• 41:13
  communicator in terms of being able to help people find their
• 41:17
  way photographically, you know, I'm a good editor. I can look at
• 41:21
  work and I can, I can verbalize what I'm seeing and where people
• 41:25
  can stand to improve or what their strengths are. So I don't
• 41:30
  necessarily feel like I'm some like wise Buddha, you know,
• 41:35
  spitting out all these wonderful, you know, thoughts
• 41:39
  and ideas. It's kind of like I, it's so much as a reflection of
• 41:43
  who I see myself as a photographer. I was doing a
• 41:48
  critique session with seven or eight photographers this
• 41:51
  morning, all of whom are making very amazing work, but very
• 41:56
  different from anything that I ever I created. At first I was
• 41:59
  kind of like it felt a little it felt a little daunting to be
• 42:03
  able to say, well, what can I communicate to them about their
• 42:06
  works? Is it's so different from what I was doing, but I was able
• 42:09
  to, you know, dialog with them and just give them an honest
• 42:12
  response in terms of what I was seeing as their their strengths
• 42:16
  and areas where they could improve. And it's just the fact
• 42:20
  that I've been doing this for, you know, 40 plus years, you
• 42:23
  know, I have some insights, yeah, but, you know, it's, it's
• 42:29
  just an opinion, right? Some people are going to agree with
• 42:33
  what I say. Other people are not. You go to a critique
• 42:36
  session, portfolio review, you'll get my opinion, and
• 42:39
  you'll get, you know, four or five other people's opinions,
• 42:41
  all of whom are very different, maybe even contradictory. So I
• 42:47
  always qualify when I share with people is like, this is just
• 42:50
  what I think. You know, don't, don't think of it as definitive
• 42:54
  or final. Take what you like and then just dump the rest.
• 42:59
  Casey Fatchett: Well, there are areas of photography where you
• 43:02
  still feel like you're a beginner.
• 43:06
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, yeah. I mean, when it comes to
• 43:09
  landscapes, I'm not having practice landscapes a lot, so I
• 43:14
  always find a little intimidating when I go out and
• 43:17
  and go out to make landscape pictures. But I've gotten, I've
• 43:22
  gotten better with that. But it doesn't come as easily to me as
• 43:27
  when I'm doing, like, just Street and travel photography. I
• 43:31
  mean, I just, I jack in and I'm just like, there almost
• 43:35
  immediately, if I go out and to do landscape photography, it
• 43:39
  takes me a while to get into a groove,
• 43:43
  Casey Fatchett: to feel, to feel like, yeah, you're you're in the
• 43:45
  zone. It's just like sports, it's like you feel like you're
• 43:49
  in the whenever they talk about, like, Oh, he's in the zone, like
• 43:52
  you can get there. You can get into this. I refer to it as, I
• 43:56
  was like, it's almost like a trance, like state, but it just
• 44:01
  feels like you're just, you're there, and you're just, you're
• 44:04
  you're hitting, and like, that's you can play baseball, like it's
• 44:09
  just, you can see the ball. You can really see the ball, like
• 44:12
  when you're that, that sort of being in that state.
• 44:16
  Ibarionex Perello: Oh, yeah. And with sports is it's, that's a
• 44:19
  subject matter where you need to know the sport in order to be a
• 44:22
  good sports photographer, whether you're photographing
• 44:25
  football or baseball, because it's all about anticipation. You
• 44:29
  know the team, you know the players, you know you know how
• 44:32
  they move and how they respond to different plays and so, so
• 44:35
  you can Okay, and he's likely going to be over here, it's all
• 44:38
  I have to be ready to, you know, turn the 300 millimeter lens
• 44:41
  over there for when he catches the ball, or when this guy runs
• 44:44
  to steal second or third base. You know, that's the people who
• 44:48
  are really good at that. That's what they're doing. They're
• 44:52
  anticipating just they're not just responding to the moment as
• 44:56
  it happens, because by that time it's too late, it's moving so
• 44:59
  fast. Asked that you have to be, you have to be two or three
• 45:03
  steps ahead in order to be ready for that, for that, for that
• 45:07
  moment. Well, I was, I
• 45:08
  Casey Fatchett: wasn't specifically talking about
• 45:09
  sports photography. I was talking about like being in
• 45:12
  that, like, you're talking about, like jacking in. I was
• 45:13
  talking about like being when you're playing a sport and you
• 45:16
  find yourself, like in the zone where you're just like, oh, and
• 45:19
  see everything. But you bring up something really interesting
• 45:21
  there. Because I think that that anticipation plays itself into a
• 45:27
  lot more different types of photography than just sports. I
• 45:30
  mean, like, as a wedding photographer, a lot of as you're
• 45:33
  reading people's body language, you know what's coming next, oh,
• 45:36
  this is what's gonna like they're gonna like. For me, it's
• 45:38
  a lot of like seeing like, Oh, this is the way they're gonna
• 45:40
  turn. I can tell how they're going to turn. And like, this is
• 45:44
  what's going to happen. And I want this frame here. Or, like,
• 45:47
  if you're a street photographer, like, I am not a great street
• 45:49
  photographer, but like, I know some like, I've talked to great
• 45:53
  street photographers, and I've know something. And just like,
• 45:56
  knowing how much anticipation there comes, like, Oh,
• 45:58
  somebody's going to walk into the frame. I'm waiting for
• 46:02
  someone to or, like, I see that person, and they're going to hit
• 46:06
  the shadow there and whatever. Just like being able to see all
• 46:09
  those things this is going to happen and anticipate that is
• 46:13
  like that you said. It's just like, you know, when you're you
• 46:17
  know, you a lot of that is getting into that flow state and
• 46:23
  being able to see what's coming.
• 46:26
  Yeah, because I think other than maybe still life, where you're
• 46:31
  completely in control in the studio and maybe other like food
• 46:35
  photography, for example, anticipation is not necessarily.
• 46:40
  It's not necessary, at least to my thinking, but anything
• 46:44
  involving people, or with landscapes where you know
• 46:48
  lighting is going to change and things like that, you have to
• 46:52
  sort of be prescient about what may likely happen, so that you
• 46:57
  can be prepared for it. And I think the best photographers get
• 47:01
  that, and that has nothing to do with the equipment, and it's
• 47:06
  more to do with your what you've learned about whatever the
• 47:10
  subject matter is, yeah, that becomes an essential part of
• 47:14
  your toolkit, because if you put me out to go photograph boxing.
• 47:19
  I might get lucky and get one, one decent shot, but most of
• 47:23
  it's going to be trash. Yeah, right, because I my reaction
• 47:28
  would be far too late, right? Because if someone knows a boxer
• 47:32
  and how they how they pay, how they box defensively and
• 47:36
  offensively, and they know exactly, you know, the nuances
• 47:40
  of that particular boxer, particularly both of them, they
• 47:45
  know, oh, wait, I know what's coming, right, right, and they
• 47:49
  can position themselves and be ready for that. Granted, they're
• 47:54
  shooting at 10 frames per second, but still, you know,
• 47:58
  they're still relying on some kind of knowledge about the
• 48:02
  players and the circumstances involved in order to be ready
• 48:06
  for that moment when it reveals itself. Because otherwise, you
• 48:11
  know, people could shoot with these crazy ass cameras that
• 48:15
  shoot 1520, frames per second, but then you're going to have to
• 48:20
  go through 1000s of pictures.
• 48:22
  Yeah, there's, yeah, the spray and pray and hope that you got
• 48:25
  it. But it was also like, isn't it that much more I see, like,
• 48:29
  people who do that, and they're like, I ended up with 4000
• 48:32
  photos from this shoot, or whatever it is. Like, well, you
• 48:36
  know, great. Now you can, like, sit and, like, scroll through
• 48:39
  all those. Wouldn't it be great to only have like, 300 and like
• 48:43
  that? You really framed the way that you wanted and like really
• 48:47
  got like that. You only had to, like, get five out of like those
• 48:51
  300 instead of 4000 it depends on, like, the type of work
• 48:54
  you're doing. But like, you know, those sorts of things
• 48:57
  where, like, I touch people who do, like portrait sessions, and
• 49:01
  they're like, I did a half an hour portrait session and I took
• 49:05
  500 pictures, and I'm like, why? Like, how many are you
• 49:08
  delivering like, and that's something that I think that I've
• 49:12
  come to terms with in, like, how I deliver for like, things like
• 49:15
  weddings, because there's a certain emotional quality to
• 49:19
  photos that, like some people like, I wouldn't deliver that
• 49:22
  many pictures. And I'm like, Yeah, but I know what these
• 49:26
  people mean to the couple who hired me. So there's like, more
• 49:29
  I tend to like over deliver a little bit in that sense,
• 49:33
  because I'm like, there are moments. These are all moments.
• 49:36
  And you know what? In 10 years, in 20 years, different moments
• 49:40
  are going to mean different things to them, yeah? So that's
• 49:43
  sort of like the planning ahead for me, but it's also, you know,
• 49:47
  I still am getting rid of probably two thirds of what I
• 49:50
  shoot at a wedding like,
• 49:53
  Ibarionex Perello: yeah, both wedding photographers, you know,
• 49:55
  certain things that you know are pivotal, yeah, right. You know,
• 49:58
  the first kiss, the first. Dance, so on and so forth. But
• 50:01
  they're all those they're all those non moments, right, that
• 50:06
  are absolutely critical, you know, that show the relationship
• 50:11
  of different people who are in attendance at the wedding, yeah,
• 50:15
  before, during and afterwards. And as a wedding photographer,
• 50:18
  it's your job to be able to be observant and capture those
• 50:21
  moments, because they're not aware of the importance of those
• 50:24
  moments. Yeah, you know, they're in it. But you, as a
• 50:26
  photographer, know, oh, man, this is, this
• 50:30
  Casey Fatchett: is going to be important to you. Like, you
• 50:33
  might not know it right now, but it's going to be important to
• 50:37
  you later on, yeah, and that sort of thing, like, I think
• 50:41
  that. I mean, obviously it doesn't translate exactly to
• 50:45
  other types of like photography, but there are still, like those
• 50:50
  things where you have to understand what the subject or
• 50:54
  the client, how they're going to feel about this, if you're doing
• 50:59
  it for someone else, and it's not strictly a personal project
• 51:03
  for you, how that's going to what that's going to mean to them
• 51:09
  in the long run, and it might be to like, you know, even if I've
• 51:13
  worked for publications before and like events and
• 51:16
  photojournalism and things like that, it's like, you need to
• 51:20
  know your editor and what They What's the story they're trying
• 51:25
  to tell? Right? What's even that sort of thing is like you need
• 51:29
  to know. Like, for me, the photo, the editor in the author
• 51:33
  of the story, or whatever, are my clients. Those are the people
• 51:37
  who like, I need to like, talk to them like, what's the what is
• 51:41
  this? What is the story? What story do I need to tell with my
• 51:45
  photos Exactly. So I'm curious then, like, if there was
• 51:49
  something that you could teach photographers that isn't like a
• 51:53
  technical thing, or like something you can just write in
• 51:57
  a book, if there's something that you could that is missing
• 52:01
  from most photography instruction, what would it?
• 52:05
  Ibarionex Perello: It's, it's, it's self editing. Most
• 52:07
  photographers are terrible editors of their own work. It's
• 52:11
  one of the hardest things to come to learn how to do, and I
• 52:15
  and it's certainly not discussed with all the education that's,
• 52:19
  you know, online, in terms of YouTube and blogs and things
• 52:23
  like that, there's very little attention that's given to to
• 52:27
  editing and calling, right? And I think that at some point
• 52:31
  photographers get competent enough where they're able to
• 52:34
  make good images consistently, and then they able to do that,
• 52:38
  and they're able to repeat it, and at some point they hit a
• 52:42
  wall, right? Because they make great individual photographs,
• 52:46
  but then they want to go further, and they don't know
• 52:49
  what they have to do, and and that's when the self curation
• 52:53
  has to start happening, where you're putting together bodies
• 52:57
  of work, whether it's a personal project where you're telling one
• 53:01
  particular story, or it's an amalgam of different photographs
• 53:05
  that you've collected over time of a particular subject matter
• 53:09
  or area, and then being able to put a portfolio or a zine
• 53:13
  together or something substantive that's tangible, not
• 53:17
  substantive, tangible from that work. And that part is, is
• 53:21
  something that is often missing. I have the opportunity to review
• 53:25
  a lot of people's work, either portfolio or certainly because
• 53:29
  of people who submit work for the podcast. And you know, the
• 53:33
  reasons why those people reach me is because they've gotten to
• 53:37
  the to that point where they're able to edit and curate their
• 53:41
  own work. So they, when I look at it, I get that it's more than
• 53:45
  just a collection of nice photographs that they're trying
• 53:48
  to say something with those. And that's that's the biggest hurdle
• 53:53
  for any photographer to get to that point. It's like, yes, I've
• 53:57
  got all this equipment. I learned Photoshop or Lightroom,
• 54:01
  I know how to print, I know how to do all these things. But now,
• 54:05
  what the hell do I want to say? And that's where you have to be
• 54:09
  able to look at yourself and look at your work and answer
• 54:13
  that question for yourself, because I can't answer it for
• 54:16
  you. No one else can answer that. For you, it's like, what
• 54:20
  do you what do you want to say? You've got the privilege of
• 54:24
  having access to all this equipment and all these
• 54:27
  resources, but if you want to go to that next level, you have to
• 54:31
  figure out that out, and that's where editing and curating your
• 54:35
  own work happens. But oftentimes people stop there and they get
• 54:39
  preoccupied with the next bit of kit, because they think that
• 54:43
  that's going to be the breakthrough, right? And it's
• 54:47
  like, no, it just means you got more stuff. You got more boxes
• 54:51
  in your closet. Doesn't necessarily mean that you're
• 54:54
  going to have a breakthrough, but there is this moment of of
• 54:58
  euphoria that comes from buying. That new kit, and it gets you
• 55:02
  gonna go out and shoot, and you feel like, oh, that's, that's
• 55:06
  what's missing, right? But that's, that's very short lived,
• 55:10
  yeah,
• 55:11
  Casey Fatchett: that's, it's that thing that like, Oh, I've
• 55:14
  got a new toy and, like, I, you know, and I'm gonna play with
• 55:18
  this for a little bit, then I'm gonna tired of it instead of,
• 55:22
  like, sitting I think that we experience, there's some
• 55:26
  discomfort with sitting with our own I think, I think social
• 55:30
  media has definitely impacted that attention span wise of
• 55:34
  being able to sit with your own thoughts about something, and
• 55:38
  being able to just look at this and go, What do I think of this,
• 55:42
  and examine it? And definitely a skill that I had to learn the
• 55:46
  hard way. But something I try to tell people all the time is,
• 55:51
  like, you look at your portfolio like, why are you sharing the
• 55:55
  same photo? It's not the same subject, it's not the same
• 55:58
  location, it's not but it is the same photo as this other photo.
• 56:03
  Like, when you look at it, it is really the same picture. And you
• 56:07
  need to learn to like, you know, you're saying, like, go through
• 56:11
  that and look at it. That was something that I was doing early
• 56:16
  on, that it was a breakthrough to sit there and be like, be
• 56:20
  more critical of my own work, and be and say, No, this is,
• 56:24
  yeah, this is, I need variety in here, and to show different
• 56:28
  sides of things, or show or tell this story. And by, like, just
• 56:32
  the same picture over and over again with just different in
• 56:36
  different fonts, it you're not really telling the story.
• 56:40
  Ibarionex Perello: And the thing you said about discomfort, I
• 56:42
  think that's, that's you have to embrace discomfort, you know,
• 56:48
  because people get good. I'll speak for myself. I get good at
• 56:53
  doing particular things a particular way, where I know I
• 56:56
  can make a good shot of this subject in a particular way. I
• 57:00
  can pull it out of my butt. Not a problem. But, you know, it
• 57:05
  took me a while to get to the point, right? But the problem
• 57:08
  happens is that when I'm reproducing that same say, that
• 57:12
  same picture, over and over again, and I get frustrated the
• 57:14
  fact that I'm not doing something differently, and the
• 57:17
  only thing that gets me to that new level is to introduce
• 57:20
  something that makes me a beginner again, a different
• 57:25
  subject matter. Sometimes it can be a lunch choice. It's like,
• 57:28
  okay, I'm using 35 millimeter. I'm gonna use a 24 for the next
• 57:31
  month or two, right? That's uncomfortable because I'm not as
• 57:35
  adept at using the 24 as I am with the 35 right? And that
• 57:39
  period of discomfort is going to result in a lot of bad
• 57:42
  photographs, photographs that fall short, until I kind of
• 57:44
  understand how to leverage that 24 millimeter in a way that I
• 57:48
  don't when I'm using a 35
• 57:50
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that there's a certain, even a
• 57:54
  certain sense of like, limitation is your friend
• 57:58
  creatively, yeah? Like, and we talked about this earlier with
• 58:02
  gear, but like, when I was getting back into film
• 58:06
  photography. Over the last few years, I have all these old no
• 58:11
  light meter, like, the light meter is burnt out, you know,
• 58:15
  it's all manual and, you know, like, so going out there and
• 58:20
  like, trying to figure things out in my head, and, you know,
• 58:24
  the and giving myself limitations, like, I'm only
• 58:28
  going to take this lens with me for, like, this week, whatever
• 58:33
  I'm only going to take, you know, X, you know, film stock,
• 58:37
  you Know, Like the to give me that limitation and and it broke
• 58:42
  me out of a period of, like, where I wasn't feeling creative,
• 58:46
  like I didn't have the the juice. I referred to it as the
• 58:51
  juice, like, You got to have the juice, like, there's, there's,
• 58:56
  there were no creative juices flowing. And it just felt like
• 59:00
  it wasn't there. And then by like it wasn't having an
• 59:04
  abundance of stuff or things to shoot, that brought me out of
• 59:09
  it. It was it only got out of it by like, restricting myself,
• 59:14
  yeah, and being critical on that thought process and being like,
• 59:18
  no, just do this. You can only do this, and then the rest of it
• 59:23
  is in your head.
• 59:25
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, when I travel now, I just take my x1
• 59:27
  100 with me. That's it. Read. The mistake of taking more kit
• 59:33
  with me, and all that ends up being is just heavy weight that
• 59:36
  I got carry around all over the place.
• 59:38
  Casey Fatchett: Well, okay, what lenses do you take with you?
• 59:40
  Ibarionex Perello: Is that? Well, the x1 100 has a fixed
• 59:43
  Okay, so it's equivalent of a 35 millimeter. So that just becomes
• 59:47
  it. That's just all I take. I mean, I've taken other kit with
• 59:50
  me and but I end up, you know, it's not worth the trouble of
• 59:57
  carrying all that stuff around, switching lenses. I, you know,
• 1:00:02
  walking all day, you know, and putting in 20,000 steps, and
• 1:00:07
  have this bag with four lenses. Just, I'm too old. I'm sorry,
• 1:00:13
  yeah, I just not 20 years old. I don't want to be lugging this
• 1:00:16
  big camera bag around with me, so I just have this little
• 1:00:18
  pocketable camera with me, and it gives me all that I need, you
• 1:00:23
  know? Yeah, I mean, I'd have the 7200 to be able to shoot a
• 1:00:26
  particular kind of shot, but that's okay. A lot of shots that
• 1:00:30
  I miss, you know. But for a lot of previous kids, I always
• 1:00:34
  bought the equivalent of a 7080, to 150, or something like that,
• 1:00:39
  and I didn't make that many pictures of that. I always got
• 1:00:43
  it because it felt like just in case, right? But I didn't know,
• 1:00:48
  where did I justify having any iteration of that focal length,
• 1:00:53
  any of the kits that I've had, and now I just don't even bother
• 1:00:56
  to have something like that, you know, around especially I have
• 1:00:59
  one, but you know, practically speaking, when I'm traveling,
• 1:01:02
  right? I do not use it if I have a job but an assignment, yes,
• 1:01:08
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, makes sense. But yeah, I probably
• 1:01:11
  shoot almost everything with a 35 or 50 when I'm traveling,
• 1:01:16
  like, just the that's like, probably 90% of what I'm
• 1:01:20
  photographing, but it took me again, same thing. Took me a
• 1:01:25
  long time to realize that, like, I don't need all this extra
• 1:01:29
  stuff. I just need the very basic and I'll be a lot happier
• 1:01:34
  with my life. And the same thing, I'm old. I don't need to
• 1:01:39
  be I don't need to carry a 150, to 600 with me, you know, you
• 1:01:44
  know, just in case I spot a bird that I might want to take a
• 1:01:49
  picture of.
• 1:01:50
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, a masseuse is not in my budget. So
• 1:01:54
  Casey Fatchett: I'm curious, like, do you think that we've
• 1:01:56
  talked a lot about like your work versus, like, what you're
• 1:02:02
  doing personally? Do you think that there's some photographic
• 1:02:06
  work that's just meant for you as the photographer?
• 1:02:10
  Ibarionex Perello: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of
• 1:02:14
  personal work that I'm making that'll probably never see sort
• 1:02:17
  of the light of day. It's just very personal. My mother in law
• 1:02:22
  lived with me, with us for last three years of her life, and I
• 1:02:27
  sort of documented that whole experience. My mom is living
• 1:02:34
  with dementia right now, and I make some pictures of that. You
• 1:02:37
  know about our journey with that? And those are pictures are
• 1:02:40
  just for family. I mean, I share some of the pictures of my my
• 1:02:45
  mother in law in some of my workshops, particularly when
• 1:02:50
  it's a works, a workshop where people are using their own lives
• 1:02:54
  to create bodies of work. So I will share that there. But other
• 1:02:58
  than that, I don't share that that work. I started it with the
• 1:03:03
  intent of it being a family only thing primarily, but I use it as
• 1:03:07
  an illustration of what's possible with that kind of work
• 1:03:10
  to my students.
• 1:03:12
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that there. I think that's
• 1:03:15
  something that I think we touched on earlier, like there
• 1:03:20
  are things that you don't have to monetize or or put out in the
• 1:03:25
  world. And, I mean, I always think of Vivian Mayer, kind of
• 1:03:30
  the thoughts like she didn't develop this stuff, like all
• 1:03:35
  these photos that we see, and really, you know, in books and
• 1:03:40
  things now that she had no intention or didn't have the
• 1:03:44
  means, at times to, like develop all this stuff, but like it or
• 1:03:49
  didn't intend for it to be out in the wild.
• 1:03:53
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, and she's a really good example
• 1:03:55
  about, you know, the importance of curation, because I've seen
• 1:04:00
  some of the books that I don't think were well edited. You
• 1:04:04
  know, there's some of them, some of them, I thought that was
• 1:04:08
  pretty good, but others that weren't. And it's largely due to
• 1:04:12
  the fact that, you know, the people who are in position of
• 1:04:16
  those photographs are not the photographer, or aren't
• 1:04:20
  photographers, period, right? So it's, it's,
• 1:04:24
  Casey Fatchett: I went to the, I went to the photography exhibit
• 1:04:28
  that they had, everything was last year. I'm pretty sure it
• 1:04:32
  was last year. Whoever curated that was very good. Because,
• 1:04:36
  like, the work was really incredible. And I was, I was
• 1:04:39
  kind of blown away, like, I've always been, sort of admired her
• 1:04:44
  composition a lot, like and like, especially with the use of
• 1:04:48
  mirrors and putting herself into photos. And there was a shot
• 1:04:52
  that she took of a storefront where she managed to, like, get.
• 1:04:56
  Her camera in one mirror and her face in another one. And it was
• 1:05:01
  like, the like, but also like, compositionally, the rest of the
• 1:05:05
  shot is, like, gorgeous. I was just like, this is, this is
• 1:05:09
  really incredible. And I had never seen it in any other, any
• 1:05:13
  books, or anywhere else. So, I mean, whoever, like, pulled this
• 1:05:17
  one out. I was like, this is, this is a really, that's the
• 1:05:21
  sort of like thing where I'm like, out taking pictures for
• 1:05:25
  myself, where I'm like, Man, I wish I could. That's one of
• 1:05:29
  those. I wish I could see things sometimes like that, like I
• 1:05:33
  could see that. That's not like, I want to recreate Vivien
• 1:05:37
  Mayer's photo, but it's like to be able to see with that sort of
• 1:05:42
  eye for composition. I kind of feel like I have my eye for
• 1:05:46
  things. But there are times where I'm like, man, like, if I
• 1:05:50
  could, if that's something I could work on, like the to be
• 1:05:54
  able to just see all those disparate things all happening
• 1:05:58
  in one frame.
• 1:05:59
  Ibarionex Perello: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wish she had, you know,
• 1:06:03
  been around enough to be able to kind of discuss her practice.
• 1:06:06
  But from understand of her, it's just like, you know, she was
• 1:06:10
  working as a nanny, so most of her working hours are spent
• 1:06:14
  doing that. But you know, when she wasn't working, she was out
• 1:06:17
  making photographs, or maybe while she was going commuting
• 1:06:20
  from her home to the family's home, where she was taking care
• 1:06:23
  of them. So she was, she was Chicago, was it
• 1:06:27
  Casey Fatchett: Chicago, New York, both.
• 1:06:30
  Ibarionex Perello: Okay, yeah. But you know, the advantage she
• 1:06:32
  had is, you know, she was largely in walking cities, yeah,
• 1:06:36
  you know, she wasn't in LA, very different photographer. Had that
• 1:06:40
  been the case, but I think that, you know, she's a really good
• 1:06:44
  example of someone who wasn't, quote, unquote, a professional
• 1:06:46
  photographer, but her daily, daily dedication to the craft,
• 1:06:51
  you know. And you know, she didn't have the benefit of
• 1:06:55
  social media in terms of learning, but she had definitely
• 1:06:57
  had a lot of influences, yeah, because she that does not come
• 1:07:01
  intuitively. Yes, she had talent, right, but she was
• 1:07:06
  influenced,
• 1:07:07
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, yeah, I'm curious because I am curious.
• 1:07:11
  Has Has photography ever healed something in you because they
• 1:07:16
  were kind of like, I think of like a lot of people, when you
• 1:07:21
  talk about more personal work, and it's sort of like you're
• 1:07:26
  bringing up the like your mother in law and your mother, and
• 1:07:32
  thinking about that, those sorts of things. And if you don't want
• 1:07:38
  to talk about this, totally fine. I will edit it out. But is
• 1:07:43
  there been a, it doesn't have to be directly related to whatever
• 1:07:49
  you were photographing, but has there ever been a something that
• 1:07:54
  you worked on that really filled a hole, or, you know,
• 1:08:00
  Ibarionex Perello: yeah, I can't say any particular work, but I
• 1:08:04
  think just the the practice of photography has been a very
• 1:08:08
  positive thing for me. It's been very self affirming, because
• 1:08:13
  from the very first pictures that I made as a kid, you know,
• 1:08:18
  I discovered that the way that I see the world and way that
• 1:08:23
  manifests in the photograph could have an impact on another
• 1:08:27
  human being. And for kid who, at the time, had a really bad
• 1:08:32
  stutter, was very insecure, who felt very disconnected, the fact
• 1:08:37
  that I could create something that could elicit an emotional
• 1:08:42
  response from somebody else was incredibly affirming, and that
• 1:08:47
  my point of view mattered. So I think that's kind of been the
• 1:08:52
  through line for all the things that I do photographically, not
• 1:08:57
  only my own photographs, but with the podcast and everything.
• 1:09:02
  Is that my point of view matters, so I am awash with as
• 1:09:06
  many insecurities as everyone else out there, but that has
• 1:09:11
  always been like my my fallback, right? That regardless of the
• 1:09:16
  circumstances in my life, this is something that I know that
• 1:09:21
  reveals something special about me. It's not about me being good
• 1:09:26
  at it, right? It's just that when I do this, I know that I'm
• 1:09:31
  doing something that really expresses something about me in
• 1:09:35
  a really positive light that's free of, usually free of any
• 1:09:40
  sort of negativity or judgment. It's the one thing that if
• 1:09:45
  someone looked at my photographs and said they suck, I wouldn't.
• 1:09:50
  I would not even flinch. I go, okay, you know, just because I
• 1:09:55
  know what I'm capable, you know, I know what the work is for me,
• 1:10:00
  right? And so when someone says, we say, would say something like
• 1:10:05
  that. I. Would just like, it wouldn't matter to me, just
• 1:10:09
  because it's, it's, it's such a true, it's, it's a reflection of
• 1:10:15
  of my inner truth. I know that sounds kind of touchy feely and,
• 1:10:20
  you know, weak, grassy, you know, but you know, that's the
• 1:10:24
  part of me that I know is absolutely untarnished and true
• 1:10:29
  about me, and it comes through in my photographs. So that's
• 1:10:33
  been one thing that sort of helped me sort of navigate times
• 1:10:38
  where I'm, you know, burdened by the insecurities about other
• 1:10:43
  aspects about my life, where I'm not as confident, right? But I
• 1:10:48
  know about this one thing, I I'm I'm good. I'm not saying I'm
• 1:10:53
  good as a photographer, but I'm good personally,
• 1:10:57
  Casey Fatchett: you're good with yourself,
• 1:10:58
  Ibarionex Perello: yeah?
• 1:10:59
  Casey Fatchett: So I after all of these hundreds of
• 1:11:02
  conversations that you've had with other photographers and
• 1:11:06
  decades in the business, what conversations do you think we're
• 1:11:11
  missing right now, like in the photography community, what
• 1:11:15
  should all of us be talking about? What kind of
• 1:11:18
  conversations should younger photographers be having with
• 1:11:23
  themselves each other does? Like, is there anything that
• 1:11:27
  stands out to you?
• 1:11:29
  Ibarionex Perello: And it's, you know, the big question, and
• 1:11:32
  largely not getting addressed even on my own show, which
• 1:11:36
  hopefully I can have conversations like that going in
• 1:11:39
  the future is like, but is largely, where are we going in
• 1:11:43
  terms of an industry? You know, it's really, really hard. I
• 1:11:48
  mean, I came up in the age, the waning age of the magazines,
• 1:11:52
  right, editorial, photography, and in all the magazines I ever
• 1:11:56
  wrote for gone, you know, and people don't, you know, don't
• 1:12:00
  have a relationship with magazines as they did in the
• 1:12:04
  past, right? And that used to be an outlet for photographers to
• 1:12:09
  be able to, you know, get work discovered, and get
• 1:12:12
  opportunities that would blossom into, you know, commercial and
• 1:12:17
  editorial work and maybe even fine artwork. And it's like when
• 1:12:21
  people want to make a life as a photographer. Do they? What are
• 1:12:25
  they? What do they do? And much of it is especially in that
• 1:12:30
  genre has revolved about, you know, being video producers. You
• 1:12:34
  know, content makers hate that word, you know, but you have to
• 1:12:38
  be adept at creating video and still that just it becomes an
• 1:12:43
  essential requirement for you to be able to make a living as a
• 1:12:47
  photographer and be diversifying your skill set. But, man, video
• 1:12:52
  is such a involves so much time and resources far more than just
• 1:12:56
  being a still photographer, but for people who are sort of
• 1:13:00
  dedicated to just doing still work. Man, it's a challenge and
• 1:13:04
  and it's hard, especially right now. I was just talking to a
• 1:13:09
  photographer who makes, makes her and has made, historically,
• 1:13:13
  made her living doing photography promotion and
• 1:13:16
  television. And since the covid and since the strike. Man, it's
• 1:13:21
  been, it's been hard for those people to get, to get gigs, and
• 1:13:25
  it's like, what do you do? Right?
• 1:13:28
  Casey Fatchett: Right? And now with like production, I'm sorry
• 1:13:33
  that prompt jockeys AI, and all the other stuff going on like
• 1:13:38
  that, will be, be, this is a big I was an actor, so it's a big
• 1:13:43
  thing in in the acting community, is like, you know,
• 1:13:47
  you have to, they were trying to, like, take people's images
• 1:13:53
  and and be able to, like, full body scan them and create new
• 1:13:58
  characters from them, or use their voice, which is something
• 1:14:01
  I used to do a lot of voiceovers, and people were
• 1:14:03
  like, Oh, they're like, in the new contracts, they were trying
• 1:14:06
  to do you do during the strike. They were like, the studios
• 1:14:09
  wanted to be able to, like, if you did your voice for like, a
• 1:14:13
  show, that they could take that recording, feed it into AI, and
• 1:14:20
  create a whole other thing and not pay you right? It's like, so
• 1:14:25
  they're paying me for one episode, and like my character
• 1:14:28
  or whatever could be in hundreds of more episodes of this show in
• 1:14:34
  perpetuity, and all you're doing is like prompting it for, you
• 1:14:41
  know, forever. And it's like, that sort of, that sort of
• 1:14:44
  feeling of, like, you know, AI in general, for like, I mean,
• 1:14:48
  this the slop is, the slop is real for individual world. And
• 1:14:56
  it's, I don't know, I'm hoping there's gonna be a backlash. Can
• 1:14:59
  say. That doesn't talk about what you're finding ways
• 1:15:02
  through. I think there's also, like, we talk about print.
• 1:15:05
  There's, there's so much out there that is like, pay to play,
• 1:15:10
  like, the tricks these to younger or less experienced
• 1:15:14
  photographers, like, oh, you can. We'll print you in our
• 1:15:17
  magazine. You just gotta pay us 500 bucks, you know. You get a
• 1:15:21
  Yeah, and you'd be surprised, like, it happens in vogue and
• 1:15:24
  like it there's, like, there's a big thing, like Vogue Europe, I
• 1:15:31
  think they were having, like, whole people, like whole
• 1:15:34
  editorials. They were paying like, six or $7,000 to, like,
• 1:15:39
  have a whole, like, shoot published and, yeah, it just
• 1:15:47
  like, you know, because thinking of it as most people were
• 1:15:49
  thinking of it as advertising, but also it gives you a whole
• 1:15:52
  different level of clout. And saying, Well, I was published in
• 1:15:56
  vogue, as opposed to saying, I was published in Joe schmoes,
• 1:16:00
  you know, magazine, where he just takes, you know, 500 bucks
• 1:16:04
  from people and prints their photos, which is, like, a big
• 1:16:09
  thing in, like, the modeling industry now, like they, you
• 1:16:11
  know, they photograph, like, they have guys, like,
• 1:16:15
  photographing these models, and they're like, oh, you know, you
• 1:16:17
  pay us X amount of money that they're Paying the model or
• 1:16:20
  whatever, and they're just printing these magazines, like
• 1:16:23
  one off magazines,
• 1:16:26
  Ibarionex Perello: yeah, and on the rights, the rights grabs,
• 1:16:29
  you know, all these clients are, you know, trying to claim
• 1:16:32
  ownership of the copyright, which, you know, secondary usage
• 1:16:37
  of the images were, at one point, a way that photographers
• 1:16:40
  made, made a living. You license the stock, or, yeah, you're
• 1:16:44
  licensing the images to other publications or books like that.
• 1:16:47
  And now with these, these clients saying, No, we own the
• 1:16:50
  we own the copyright, you get paid the one time fee. You lose
• 1:16:53
  your copyright, and we can use it anywhere we want, and
• 1:16:57
  infinitum. And it's just like,
• 1:17:01
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, like, it's one of those conversations I
• 1:17:04
  have with younger photographers. But like, you know, you have to
• 1:17:08
  think about what you if you want to do this as a business, if you
• 1:17:12
  want to do this as something you just enjoy or like, what is the
• 1:17:17
  like you have to have? I'm not saying you have to have the end
• 1:17:19
  goal figured out, but you kind of have to figure out, like,
• 1:17:22
  what you really want to get out of it in the short term, what's
• 1:17:28
  your five year plan, or whatever, like you want to call
• 1:17:30
  it. But in that way, you need to figure out how to direct your
• 1:17:34
  energy. Yeah, it's because it it's not easy. Out there
• 1:17:39
  Ibarionex Perello: There are easier ways to make money.
• 1:17:48
  Casey Fatchett: Tired of juggling multiple programs to
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  Unknown: Hey, and now for my favorite part of the show,
• 1:20:23
  what's that? Say? Useless information. This is always death.
• 1:20:31
  Casey Fatchett: How much money do you think that during the
• 1:20:35
  height of his cartel's power, Pablo Escobar was spending on
• 1:20:41
  rubber bands per week, per week,
• 1:20:45
  Ibarionex Perello: per week. I'll say like 40 grand. No, it's
• 1:20:50
  2500 per week. Just Oh, per week per week per week, 20. Oh, my
• 1:20:58
  God, on rubber bands to hold the money. It's also estimated that
• 1:21:07
  they lost over $2 billion to rats. Oh, just eating the money.
• 1:21:14
  Oh, my God,
• 1:21:16
  Casey Fatchett: it's crazy. It is insanity. It's absolute
• 1:21:22
  insanity. I how you feel about that, butit kind of leaves me stunned.
• 1:21:31
  Ibarionex Perello: I'm just grateful I don't have that kind
• 1:21:33
  of rat problem. Yeah, me either.
• 1:21:35
  Casey Fatchett: Ibarionex. Thank you so much for being on the
• 1:21:38
  show. It's an honor. Where can people find you and your show?
• 1:21:44
  Ibarionex Perello: They can follow me at the candid frame,
• 1:21:46
  calm there. I have links for that's my photographic website.
• 1:21:51
  My links to Instagram workshops that I'm having. I also have a
• 1:21:55
  substack, just Google, substack, Ebody and x and you'll find me.
• 1:22:00
  And, yeah, yeah. So hopefully be people not familiar with the
• 1:22:04
  show, they'll check it out. Definitely. We're listening 2006
• 1:22:08
  so got a lot of conversations, including a conversation with
• 1:22:12
  Martin Parr, who we lost last week.
• 1:22:14
  Casey Fatchett: I was gonna just listen to that. Recently, I
• 1:22:17
  actually met Martin a few we worked concurrently for a
• 1:22:22
  publication for a little while, and like, just remembering
• 1:22:27
  conversations that I had with him. Yeah, it's a great episode,
• 1:22:31
  by the way, people should go check it out. I'll include those
• 1:22:34
  links in the Episode Notes. Again. Thank you so much for
• 1:22:39
  spending some time with me. My pleasure,
• 1:22:49
  and we are back. My deepest thanks to Iberian ex Perillo for
• 1:22:53
  being on the show. You can find his links in the Episode Notes.
• 1:22:58
  Be sure to follow along with him and tell us what you think about
• 1:23:03
  this show. What do you think of it? Was it informative, helpful?
• 1:23:08
  Just fun to listen to leave us a review and let us know you can
• 1:23:12
  also follow along with us on the socials at the nerdy photo.
• 1:23:17
  That's at the nerdy photo, no dots, underscores or dashes on
• 1:23:21
  Instagram, threads, blue sky, Tiktok and read it, and we are
• 1:23:26
  finally at the top of the mountain and there's nobody
• 1:23:30
  here. Snuck I see there's a note says on my lunch break back in
• 1:23:35
  an hour.
• 1:23:39
  Okay, then I guess, I guess we wait until Next time everybody
• 1:23:43
  stay safe and stay nerdy.
• 1:24:02
  Better. Get better. Get better. Listen, you.