Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Do you believe? Psychic detectives share their crime fighting tales

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Do you believe? Psychic detectives share their crime fighting tales · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you
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Speaker 1: for a five part series with action information that you
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Speaker 1: can use to change your life and protect your child.
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Speaker 1: Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out
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Speaker 1: how to protect your child when you're out of the
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Speaker 1: mall or the store, or the grocery, in the parking
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Speaker 1: lot at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters, in daycare,
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Speaker 1: even online. I'd rather have that any day of the
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Speaker 1: week than a plastic toy or god forbid, a toy gun.
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Speaker 1: Join Justice Nation. Go to crime stops here dot com
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. But first this crime online
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Speaker 1: news update. I'm Robert Wilenski. You don't want a child,
1:34
Speaker 1: don't I have him? And if you caught him and
1:37
Speaker 1: you don't want him, give him up. Don't do it
1:39
Speaker 1: this way, this wrong. Neighbor's stunned to learn a father,
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Speaker 1: a former Walmart Santa Claus under arrest in Georgia after
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Speaker 1: the bodies of his two children found buried in his
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Speaker 1: backyard of his house. The kids never reported missing, gets
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Speaker 1: the lord's work. Elwen Crocker Senior, now fifty years old,
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Speaker 1: arrested after sheriff's deputy He's go to his house in Guiton, Georgia,
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Speaker 1: a suburb of Savannah, to conduct a welfare check on
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Speaker 1: his fourteen year old daughter, Mary Crocker. After questioning Crocker,
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Speaker 1: he apparently directs deputies to an area of his backyard,
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Speaker 1: where investigators find the bodies of Mary and her brother Elwyn,
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Speaker 1: who's been missing for two years. I've been doing this
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Speaker 1: forty one years and while ago Alms broke down in tears,
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Speaker 1: you're listening to longtime Effingham County sheriff Jimmy McDuffie at
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Speaker 1: a news conference, just distraught over detectives finding the two bodies.
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Speaker 1: Does that mean I just I cannot understand how you
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Speaker 1: do children with this horrible Now, police getting a tip
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Speaker 1: during a nine one one call saying Mary Crocker hadn't
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Speaker 1: been seen since October, and the tipster telling the nine
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Speaker 1: one one operator she believes the girl is dead. More
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Speaker 1: now from ABC thirteen. A tip is what led investigators
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Speaker 1: to this home, one Rosebud Place. They were told fourteen
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Speaker 1: year old Mary Crocker was missing and believed to be dead.
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Speaker 1: She hadn't been since October. Investigators questioned everyone inside the home.
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Speaker 1: Deputies say the family lied, saying Mary went to live
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Speaker 1: with her mother. When deputies returned Thursday morning, they discovered
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Speaker 1: Mary buried just feet away from her home, and her
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Speaker 1: brother's body was found nearby. Elwyn Crocker Junior hadn't been
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Speaker 1: seen since November twenty sixteen. Authorities believe he was killed
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Speaker 1: at that time, only discovered now two years later after
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Speaker 1: his death, he would have been sixteen. Neither of them
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Speaker 1: were reported missing. Deputies have charged three in connection, the
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Speaker 1: biological father, forty nine year old Elwyn Crocker, the stepmother
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Speaker 1: thirty three year old Candice Crocker, and the step grandmother,
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Speaker 1: fifty year old Kim Wright. They say the three are
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Speaker 1: being charged with concealing the death of another and cruelty
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Speaker 1: to children in the first degree. Deputies say the child
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Speaker 1: of the stepmother was found alive inside the home. He
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Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital to be checked out. And
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Speaker 1: a stunning story of two raisin burglars who make themselves
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Speaker 1: at home. They make a pot of coffee, do their laundry,
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Speaker 1: and take a shower. After breaking into a house and
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Speaker 1: can't ohio, they steal expensive stuff. Police say the couple
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Speaker 1: hanging out in the house until the homeowner comes back,
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Speaker 1: realizes what's going down and calls a relative who has
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Speaker 1: a gun. The two suspects identified as Richard Napelle, thirty
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Speaker 1: eight years old and camer Cantwell, twenty, who is reportedly homeless.
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Speaker 1: After the two allegedly steal jewelry, a computer, credit cards,
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Speaker 1: house and car keys, they load these items into their
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Speaker 1: truck and then go back inside and do the laundry,
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Speaker 1: take the shower, and make coffee. The homeowner arrives sees
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Speaker 1: the truck in her driveway, and she calls a relative
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Speaker 1: who lives nearby, who arrives with the gun before police
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Speaker 1: get there. The male suspect also has crystal meth on
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Speaker 1: him when he's arrested. The two now charged with burglary,
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Speaker 1: and he's also facing an aggravated drug possession charge. In
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Speaker 1: other news, a crazy story out on Long Island where
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Speaker 1: a couple is accused of punching a New York State
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Speaker 1: trooper and then throwing soiled underwear during a dui arrest.
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Speaker 1: Michael Nelson, thirty eight years old, pulled over on the
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Speaker 1: Southern State Parkway. Copsy he's driving under the influence of alcohol.
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Speaker 1: While he's being arrested, police say he headbuts the trooper
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Speaker 1: several times and hits the officer. His wife, Alexandra twenty
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Speaker 1: nine years old, also arrested. While these two at the
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Speaker 1: police station, the wife reportedly spits at the officers throws
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Speaker 1: her shoes and dirty underwear at them. She's charged with
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Speaker 1: attempted assault, criminal possession of a controlled substance, and disorderly conduct.
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Speaker 1: The husband charged with driving under the influence, assault, criminal
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Speaker 1: possession of a controlled substance, resisting arrest, and harassment. More
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Speaker 1: now from WABC's Sandra Bookman a bizarre story on Long Island.
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Speaker 1: Police say a couple headbutted a state trooper and even
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Speaker 1: through a soiled underwear during a dui arrest. Stay Troopers
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Speaker 1: say they pulled that couple over this morning on the
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Speaker 1: Southern State Parkway. Police say Michael Nelson fought the state
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Speaker 1: troopers who arrested him, and when they got to the
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Speaker 1: police station, officers say his wife Alexandra spat at the
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Speaker 1: troopers and through her shoes and underwear. A couple faces
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Speaker 1: a laundry list of charges. Keep up to date on
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Speaker 1: one nine nine four nine Crime That's nine O nine
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Speaker 1: the phone live on most weekday mornings. We will let
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7:21
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I
7:35
Speaker 1: never once introduced a sidekick into court because hey, it's
7:42
Speaker 1: not hard evidence. Be the defense would cross examine those
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Speaker 1: witnesses to h E, double L and back. So in
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Speaker 1: my world as a felony prosecutor, if I can't see it,
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Speaker 1: touch it, smell it, hear it, it doesn't exist in
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Speaker 1: the world of hard evidence. And my job was to
8:03
Speaker 1: put hard evidence in front of a jury to prove
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Speaker 1: somebody needed to go to jail for the rest of
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Speaker 1: their life or worse. But then everything changed. I mean,
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Speaker 1: see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
8:19
Speaker 1: with us. What do you think about psychics and specifically
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Speaker 1: about psychic detectives, because today we have an all star
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Speaker 1: lineup of some of the most well known psychics in
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Speaker 1: the world to talk about not just does another realm exist,
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Speaker 1: but what they have done to help solve criminal cases
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Speaker 1: with me Noreen Rnare, Gil Saint, John Alison Dubois and
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Speaker 1: of course death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert, to
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Speaker 1: weigh in on the let's just say the world of
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Speaker 1: here and now and Alan Jackie Howard, We're all here
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Speaker 1: and again thank you being with us. I'll tell you,
9:02
Speaker 1: jos Got Morgans, it's you an ideal and harsh reality
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Speaker 1: and cold hard facts before I get to our ladies,
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Speaker 1: jos Got, Come on, if I tried to bring a
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Speaker 1: psychic into court, I would be laughed down the courthouse
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Speaker 1: hallway right out the front door, and I could be
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Speaker 1: looking for a job, I don't know, door to door,
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Speaker 1: back and cleaner salesperson. I guess I don't know what
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Speaker 1: I would be doing with that law degree, because there
9:25
Speaker 1: would be enough skeptics to ruin a verdict and I
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Speaker 1: could never risk that. Yeah, Nancy, Yeah, Nancy, I'm a
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Speaker 1: forensic scientist, and I concur with much of what you
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Speaker 1: had said relative to being able to not just qualify,
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Speaker 1: but quantify those things. That we see before us in
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Speaker 1: the field and in the laboratory, that sort of thing.
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Speaker 1: And it's very hard to get that exactly, but I'll
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Speaker 1: tell you what changed my mind. I'd been out of
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Speaker 1: the court courtroom for a year or two and I
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Speaker 1: got um drafted by the Larry King staff and to
10:02
Speaker 1: be not just a guest, but to be Larry's regular
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Speaker 1: guest host for about five years. And I remember one
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Speaker 1: time Larry had to go somewhere. We went live that
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Speaker 1: night on Psychic Detectives. So I started preparing for the
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Speaker 1: show and listen to this Joe Scott Morgan, mister nonbeliever.
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Speaker 1: I started reading about a Burbank woman who had never
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Speaker 1: had a psychic vision in her life, and she allegedly
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Speaker 1: has a psychic vision. And I'm putting that in quoties
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Speaker 1: that leads detectives to the body of a murder victim.
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Speaker 1: Now this is what went down. This woman, Etta Louise Smith,
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Speaker 1: out of the blue, says that she had a vision
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Speaker 1: about a body out in the middle of like a
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Speaker 1: canyon rural area, and I think, as I recall it,
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Speaker 1: that she saw white. She keeps having the vision and
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Speaker 1: it's so overwhelming. She gets members of her family to
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Speaker 1: go with her and they go driving around Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: they find the body of a beautiful young nurse. It
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Speaker 1: was two days after the nurse is very highly publicized disappearance.
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Speaker 1: As I recall it, the nurse was coming home from
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Speaker 1: work one evening. You know, they have crazy shifts at
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Speaker 1: a hospital. She's at a red light and a bunch
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Speaker 1: of guys that she didn't know drove up beside her
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Speaker 1: and they kidnapped her and ended up beating her and
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Speaker 1: dumping her body in a rural area above lake View Terraces.
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Speaker 1: About forty five minutes after, she finds the body with
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Speaker 1: her family members. They call police and the police are
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Speaker 1: there now. She is there with two of her children
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Speaker 1: and a niece and they find the body and they leave.
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Speaker 1: Police to the location in Lopez Canyon, in the middle
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Speaker 1: of a canyon, Jefe Scott. Well, the police get there
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Speaker 1: and guess what they do? They arrest her. After hours
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Speaker 1: and hours of interrogation, they arrest Eda Smith. Nancy, Let's
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Speaker 1: listen to what Eda Smith told Oprah Winfrey. Well, what
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Speaker 1: really brought it about was I was listening to a
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Speaker 1: news broadcast on a radio and the night before a
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Speaker 1: girlfriend had called me on the phone and asked me
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Speaker 1: if I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped,
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Speaker 1: and you felt what Well, what really brought it about
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Speaker 1: was I was listening to a news broadcast on a radio,
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Speaker 1: and the night before a girlfriend had called me on
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Speaker 1: the phone and asked me if I had heard about
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Speaker 1: a nurse who had been kidnapped and was missing in
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Speaker 1: our area, and I said no, I hadn't heard about it.
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Speaker 1: So that day at work. The following day, at work,
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Speaker 1: I listened to the radio and they said that they
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Speaker 1: had found the ladies vehicle on a dead end street
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Speaker 1: and that they were making a house to house search
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Speaker 1: for her. And as soon as they said a house
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Speaker 1: to house, sir, it was as if I heard someone
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Speaker 1: speaking to me says, she's not in a house. And
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Speaker 1: as soon as that thought registered, I saw exactly where
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Speaker 1: she was. It was like there was a picture in
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Speaker 1: front of me. WHOA. I didn't know the name of
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Speaker 1: the street, but I knew the area, I knew how
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Speaker 1: to get there, and I just knew. So what did
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Speaker 1: you do? Tell called police? Well, this was about three
13:20
Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon, I was at work. I'd get
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Speaker 1: off work at three thirty, and I'm arguing with myself
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Speaker 1: all the way home because when I get to a
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Speaker 1: certain intersection, I either turn right to go home, or
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Speaker 1: I can turn left and I'll be right in front
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Speaker 1: the police department. So I'm saying I should stop, and
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Speaker 1: I'm saying now I should go home. Well, when I
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Speaker 1: got to that intersection, I said, let him think I'm nuts.
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Speaker 1: I have to stop. And it's exactly what I did.
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Speaker 1: I talked to a homicide investigator, told him exactly the area.
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Speaker 1: I said, I knew that it's on the right hand
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Speaker 1: side going up this canyon road, and that there was
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Speaker 1: a dirt path going towards this person and with a
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Speaker 1: heel behind her. He said they had not check that area,
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Speaker 1: that they would, and I said, well, you know, I
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Speaker 1: have a feeling I will also. Inside I wanted to
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Speaker 1: be wrong, but I also felt that if I didn't check,
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Speaker 1: I'd never know the truth. I'd never know if they checked,
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Speaker 1: I'd never know for sure whether I was right or wrong,
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Speaker 1: and I wanted to be wrong. I was hoping I
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Speaker 1: was really wrong. So you went there yourself, or you
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Speaker 1: went there with them? No, I went I didn't go
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Speaker 1: with them. I went home. I told my children why
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Speaker 1: I was late coming home, and they wanted to go
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Speaker 1: with me. I told him I was going. And I
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Speaker 1: feel bad about that now because at the time I
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Speaker 1: wasn't thinking properly. I wouldn't have taken the children out
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Speaker 1: to look for someone. But as he was saying, when
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Speaker 1: you get in, how old were your children? Nine? Ten? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: I took two children with me, plus a niece who
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Speaker 1: was twenty one at the time. And you found the
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Speaker 1: body ultimately, yeah, yeah, you found the Boddy and and
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Speaker 1: you were saying what Charles was saying that what when
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Speaker 1: you get close? Because I knew when we got in
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Speaker 1: the canyon, I could I could feel, I could feel
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Speaker 1: the terror. I could feel vibrations of something that wasn't normal.
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Speaker 1: I felt scared myself, you know, I could feel it
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Speaker 1: just like he since Jennifer, since her you said you
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Speaker 1: felt her absolutely. That is amazing. That is amazing. Police
15:27
Speaker 1: later arrested you because well, they said I knew too
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Speaker 1: much about it not to have been involved, because I
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Speaker 1: had described in detail where she was up this canyon
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Speaker 1: road on the side on the right side, with a
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Speaker 1: dirt path going to her and a hill behind her.
15:42
Speaker 1: I said, I had to have been there to have
15:44
Speaker 1: known that. So long story short, Joe Scott. She didn't
15:48
Speaker 1: take kindly, as you can imagine, getting arrested after hours
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Speaker 1: and hours of interrogation. She sued LAPD and she got
15:57
Speaker 1: a huge settlement from lap Now, when I read this story,
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Speaker 1: and I read several more like it, and I did
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Speaker 1: the Larry King Show that night, and I was questioning
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Speaker 1: the cops that were on the case, cops Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: police officers, and they're like, we don't understand it, but
16:15
Speaker 1: it happened in Joe Scott. We did several shows like that,
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Speaker 1: and we would have three or four cases on each show.
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Speaker 1: And I got the opportunity to talk to the sidekicks,
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Speaker 1: which I had never done before, to question the police officers,
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Speaker 1: some of the victims' families, and I walked away going, Okay,
16:35
Speaker 1: this does not make sense in my head, but it happened.
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Speaker 1: I don't It's just like you know, the telephone and
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Speaker 1: the TV and the radio and the cell phone. I
16:44
Speaker 1: don't know how it happens, but I know that it
16:47
Speaker 1: does happen. I know when I flicked the lights, which
16:49
Speaker 1: light comes on. I don't have to think about Wow,
16:51
Speaker 1: how did we harness electricity? How do we get it
16:54
Speaker 1: into the room without burning the house down? I don't
16:56
Speaker 1: think about that, but I know that it happens Joe Scott,
16:59
Speaker 1: and this appen for us in investigations. We're so pragmatic
17:03
Speaker 1: about everything, and we spend we spend so much of
17:07
Speaker 1: our time trying to cut through what is fact and
17:11
Speaker 1: what is fiction. We are lied to a lot, I think,
17:15
Speaker 1: in our field trying to get to the truth, and
17:19
Speaker 1: it's we're biased in that sense in that we assume
17:23
Speaker 1: many times that most of the people that we're talking
17:26
Speaker 1: to are trying to deceive us in something. Well, I
17:29
Speaker 1: hear what you're saying, and that may be true, and
17:31
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's not true. Your point. What I'm
17:33
Speaker 1: saying is if I can't understand it, if it's not
17:36
Speaker 1: two plus two equals four, I'm not putting in front
17:38
Speaker 1: of a jury, bam, end of story. If I can't
17:42
Speaker 1: prove it at a crime lab or I can't see
17:44
Speaker 1: it here it, taste it, touch it, or smell it,
17:47
Speaker 1: it's not in my world. Until I spoke to Edda
17:51
Speaker 1: with me right now, three of the most well known
17:54
Speaker 1: psychics literally in the World. Norine Raner del Saint John
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Speaker 1: Alison Duba First to you, Alison Duba, tell me how
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Speaker 1: you became a psychic. When did you first have any
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Speaker 1: psychic vision or experience. It started when I was really little.
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Speaker 1: I mean I was six years old and I went
18:16
Speaker 1: to the first funeral I ever attended, and it was
18:18
Speaker 1: my great grandfather's. And I came home from his funeral
18:22
Speaker 1: and my mom tucked me into bed, and I looked
18:24
Speaker 1: at the foot of my bed and he was standing
18:26
Speaker 1: there and he actually looked like he had no lines
18:29
Speaker 1: on his face, and he looked happy. And he said,
18:31
Speaker 1: tell your mom, I'm not in pain anymore and I'm
18:33
Speaker 1: still with her, because he had died of intestinal cancer,
18:35
Speaker 1: very painful death. So I got out of bed and
18:38
Speaker 1: I told my mom, Grandpa's in my room, and he says,
18:40
Speaker 1: to tell you, he's not in pain anymore and he's
18:42
Speaker 1: still with you, and she told me to go back
18:44
Speaker 1: to bed. So it was the seventies. They didn't know
18:46
Speaker 1: what to do with kids like me at the time,
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Speaker 1: So that was my first experience. You know, I'm looking
18:51
Speaker 1: at a photo of you right now, Alison Dublat, and
18:54
Speaker 1: I already know you, but I'm just looking at you.
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Speaker 1: And when people think of mediums or chics, they think
19:01
Speaker 1: of some crackpot dressed and I guess a gypsy outfit
19:06
Speaker 1: over a fake crystal ball in a dark room. Okay,
19:08
Speaker 1: that's that's what they think of. It couldn't if you
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Speaker 1: guys look up these three ladies, Narin, Gayl and Alison,
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Speaker 1: and I don't mean this it's an insult. They're normal.
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Speaker 1: They're regular people like you and me that have had
19:19
Speaker 1: an event in their lives that took them down the
19:22
Speaker 1: road of psychic medium. So tell me when your next
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Speaker 1: vision was or your next I don't know if I
19:29
Speaker 1: call it a vision or experience. Alison, you know I
19:32
Speaker 1: had experiences through my whole childhood. I guess when I
19:35
Speaker 1: was a teenager, when you get really turned up because
19:37
Speaker 1: of the hormones and all, I moved my bed from
19:41
Speaker 1: against the south wall over to the east wall. And
19:44
Speaker 1: my friend Barbara, who was spending the night that night,
19:46
Speaker 1: was like, would you do that for and I said, yeah,
19:49
Speaker 1: voice that I've heard my whole life told me to
19:51
Speaker 1: move the bed, and I said, so, I moved the
19:53
Speaker 1: bed because it has already saved my life once before,
19:56
Speaker 1: when I was eleven, and that night a truck drift
19:59
Speaker 1: through my bedroom wall, and if I hadn't moved the bed,
20:02
Speaker 1: barber and I would have been under the truck. So
20:05
Speaker 1: my friends always just chalked it up, so, well, that's
20:07
Speaker 1: just Allison, you know. So I thought everybody could do
20:10
Speaker 1: what I did, they just didn't talk about it like
20:12
Speaker 1: wink wink, nod nod. But it wasn't until I was
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Speaker 1: interning a homicide to be a prosecutor that I realized
20:20
Speaker 1: that other people didn't necessarily see or hear what I
20:23
Speaker 1: was seeing and hearing. And that was news to me.
20:26
Speaker 1: Also with me in addition to Alison Dubois at Alison
20:29
Speaker 1: Dubois dot com, Noreen Ranier, and Gail Saint John Norine.
20:35
Speaker 1: If it's not too intrusive again, landies, thank you to
20:38
Speaker 1: all three of you being with dus Norine. When was
20:40
Speaker 1: your first I don't know what else to call it
20:42
Speaker 1: but psychic experience. I was all grown up and I
20:46
Speaker 1: was pretty much a skeptic. I thought all psychics told
20:49
Speaker 1: client people could marrya told our handsome man and they
20:52
Speaker 1: stole chickens or something of the sort. So I was
20:54
Speaker 1: very surprised when I started meditating. I didn't believe in
20:58
Speaker 1: psychic phenomena, and I went almost immediately into a trance
21:02
Speaker 1: and gave a Winnebagel Indian who was at the table
21:05
Speaker 1: with my girlfriend, who was also skeptic nun information which
21:11
Speaker 1: hold on, I've got two skeptics and one is an
21:13
Speaker 1: ex nun. You know that just reminds me. Let me
21:15
Speaker 1: tell you, Narein, when I was a FED before I
21:17
Speaker 1: became a felony prosecutor, I was prosecuting some people with
21:21
Speaker 1: the Federal Trade Commission in the consumer protection an I
21:24
Speaker 1: trust vision and it was a weight loss product, which
21:27
Speaker 1: I knew from examining and speaking to scientists had nothing
21:30
Speaker 1: in it at all that would be at a weight loss.
21:33
Speaker 1: It's something called guar g u a R. I've never
21:36
Speaker 1: had a chance to work that into a conversation since
21:38
Speaker 1: that time, but guar kind of expands in your stomach
21:42
Speaker 1: and makes you feel full for a minute and then
21:44
Speaker 1: basically no, nothing to make you lose weight. Then I
21:48
Speaker 1: started sifting through all the letters of complaints and I
21:51
Speaker 1: found one letter from a nun that swore she lost
21:55
Speaker 1: forty pounds usually whatever it was, I don't even remember
21:57
Speaker 1: the name. Of it and I took it into my
21:59
Speaker 1: boss's office. I was holding I'm like, we're screed because
22:03
Speaker 1: this nune says this worked, and she used it for
22:06
Speaker 1: six months. And let me tell you something. You put
22:08
Speaker 1: this n up on that witness stand, it's over. Okay,
22:12
Speaker 1: we got to rethink this whole thing. So you're telling
22:15
Speaker 1: me you're sitting there with an X nun and what happened?
22:17
Speaker 1: And well she was a disbeliever and everything too. So
22:20
Speaker 1: we after Joe, after the episode, we got rid of
22:23
Speaker 1: Joan and did you believe this stuff? I said no,
22:25
Speaker 1: she must have done something to us. So we decided
22:27
Speaker 1: to meet that night. Her husband worked late. She was
22:30
Speaker 1: out of the convent now like ten years and had
22:33
Speaker 1: been in the convent for about ten years. And we
22:35
Speaker 1: started doing what the books we're talking about, we would practice.
22:38
Speaker 1: So that's how it began. And then at work, I
22:41
Speaker 1: couldn't think. I just wanted to see if it worked.
22:44
Speaker 1: And I was in PR and advertising, so I could
22:46
Speaker 1: bring clients too high at hotel and show them in
22:48
Speaker 1: case they wanted to rende lecture hall or something, and
22:50
Speaker 1: I would rush them to lunch and say, look, I
22:53
Speaker 1: really don't believe in this, but I'm read if you
22:55
Speaker 1: hold a person's rings or watch and you put it
22:57
Speaker 1: to your forehead, you can, and so I'd be grabbing
22:59
Speaker 1: their want to ring off the practice on people I
23:02
Speaker 1: didn't know, and it was working. Of course, I got fired,
23:05
Speaker 1: I think not a very good psyche got three months later,
23:08
Speaker 1: and so that's when I went full time, dressed like
23:10
Speaker 1: a gypsy and started in the nightclub. I was still
23:13
Speaker 1: trying to prove that this really was real, and then
23:16
Speaker 1: science got involved Duke University, a lot of testing at
23:20
Speaker 1: Ryan Research, and I still love testing my mind of
23:23
Speaker 1: what it can do. And I do still a lot
23:25
Speaker 1: of work, and I'm working a lot now in South
23:27
Speaker 1: Africa of all places. Okay, I'm just taking all of
23:31
Speaker 1: this in. Gail Saint John also with me, in addition
23:34
Speaker 1: to Alison du Bois and Mareen Renier. Gail Saint John,
23:38
Speaker 1: you and I've spoken many many times, although guys on
23:41
Speaker 1: professional level, I have not consulted with Gayl Saint John. Okay,
23:45
Speaker 1: I'm still clinging to the fact that this may not exist,
23:49
Speaker 1: even though I know that it has actually happened. Gael
23:53
Speaker 1: Saint John, I want to hear your first so called
23:57
Speaker 1: I don't know what else to call it, unless you
23:59
Speaker 1: ladies can enlighten me. Psychic experience. Um well, I vividly
24:03
Speaker 1: remember I was about four years old. My mother was
24:09
Speaker 1: outside talking to the neighbor. You know, we're talking about
24:13
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, so you can kind of picture how
24:16
Speaker 1: that is. I'm two houses down playing with the other
24:20
Speaker 1: little girl. We're used to having a great time, like
24:23
Speaker 1: you know, real little kids are doing and watching our
24:27
Speaker 1: mom's talk. And and I look up at her house
24:31
Speaker 1: and it was on fire. And I'm at an age where,
24:35
Speaker 1: you know, comprehension isn't the greatest. But so I looked down.
24:37
Speaker 1: I look up again, and the house was on fire.
24:40
Speaker 1: Now at this point, I'm scared, I'm running home. If
24:43
Speaker 1: I'm running back, you know, just quickly I glanced again,
24:45
Speaker 1: the house was not on fire. And I'm running up
24:47
Speaker 1: to my mom and I'm yelling mom, mom, and she's
24:50
Speaker 1: trying to, you know, keep me quiet for a minute,
24:52
Speaker 1: and she shuffled me into the house. I think she
24:56
Speaker 1: said something to neighbor. I think she got hurt. And
24:58
Speaker 1: we get into the house and she said, what what
25:01
Speaker 1: are you howiring about fire? I said, I saw the
25:04
Speaker 1: house on fire. I saw the neighbor's house on fire.
25:06
Speaker 1: She said, it's not on fire, and I insisted, I
25:09
Speaker 1: saw it, but I know it's gone now. She said,
25:13
Speaker 1: you like, what exactly did you see? And I said,
25:15
Speaker 1: it was burning, there was smoke, I saw people there,
25:20
Speaker 1: and then I said, then it was all gone. She said, um,
25:22
Speaker 1: she said, you know you need to not say these things.
25:26
Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, I clean, I can't say these things.
25:28
Speaker 1: And my grandmother came out of the other room she goes, ye,
25:31
Speaker 1: we don't talk about this. This has been in our family.
25:33
Speaker 1: We don't. You don't say these things. I was so
25:35
Speaker 1: confused at that point I let it go. Three days
25:38
Speaker 1: later their house burned down. And then that left me
25:41
Speaker 1: with the strangest of feelings that at such a young age,
25:44
Speaker 1: of like what if what if they? What if somebody
25:46
Speaker 1: would have And thank goodness, nobody got hurt in the fire,
25:51
Speaker 1: they all got out, But what if what if somebody
25:54
Speaker 1: had gotten hurt? And I would have been responsible because
25:57
Speaker 1: I knew I could have warned them? And I with
26:00
Speaker 1: a guilt for quite some time and trying to deal
26:03
Speaker 1: with disability and where's that line, Hi, Nancy Grace, here
26:11
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26:15
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26:19
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26:23
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26:26
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26:29
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27:11
Speaker 1: Nancy Truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy. Find the truth
27:23
Speaker 1: crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are speaking with three
27:29
Speaker 1: renowned so called psychic detectives Narene Ranier, Gail sat John
27:35
Speaker 1: Alison Dubois with me death investigator Joe Scott Morgan, Alan
27:39
Speaker 1: Duke and Jackie Howard. I want to go to Noreen Rnaer. Noreen,
27:44
Speaker 1: do you recall a particular case that you worked on.
27:49
Speaker 1: This case dealt with a victim that is last named
27:54
Speaker 1: Sullivan that was ultimately discovered dead. Um. It was a
28:00
Speaker 1: missing person case and an agent with the Montana Department
28:06
Speaker 1: of Justice. The d o J contacted you in way
28:11
Speaker 1: back after watching you on television. He was skeptical, he says,
28:15
Speaker 1: he met you, flew to Florida to meet you to
28:17
Speaker 1: see if you were the real deal. He says. He
28:21
Speaker 1: gave you no information about the unsolved case and wanted
28:25
Speaker 1: to find out if you could possibly help find a
28:29
Speaker 1: Montana State auditor Walter Sullivan. Noreene, do you recall the
28:35
Speaker 1: Sullivan case out of Montana? Oh? Yes, they do. I
28:39
Speaker 1: got a phone call from them. They had Detective uber Ubi.
28:44
Speaker 1: I had seen me on television and I wanted to
28:46
Speaker 1: know how I worked. And usually the police, because I
28:49
Speaker 1: worked all over the United States, would send me something
28:51
Speaker 1: off the victim that wouldn't interrupt their crime, like a
28:55
Speaker 1: whew or built buckle or something. And they didn't want
28:58
Speaker 1: to send the evidence had so they flew out and
29:02
Speaker 1: usually I do things over the phone, so I was
29:04
Speaker 1: surprised to see them with the camera and they videotaped
29:09
Speaker 1: the session, and they would give me no feedback. Usually
29:13
Speaker 1: on the phone, I just asked if it's a homicide
29:15
Speaker 1: or a missing person case. I don't ask for their
29:17
Speaker 1: name because the skeptics always say that we look it
29:20
Speaker 1: up and we know everything about the person. So I
29:22
Speaker 1: never know the name of the victim until I start
29:25
Speaker 1: the case. So they told me they named the victim,
29:27
Speaker 1: and I described him to make sure I was tuned in.
29:30
Speaker 1: I forgot I think I was holding something. Of the
29:32
Speaker 1: victims did a bunch on him, and they were very
29:35
Speaker 1: bad at giving me feedback, and usually I just like
29:37
Speaker 1: to know if I'm in the right zone, you know,
29:40
Speaker 1: did he have you know, the ball here? However, I
29:42
Speaker 1: described him, but they've no feedback whatsoever. And then they
29:45
Speaker 1: gave me the projectile the bullet that he had been
29:50
Speaker 1: shot with, and then I got all sorts of new pictures.
29:54
Speaker 1: I saw three men, and I remember my head hurting terribly.
29:58
Speaker 1: I was outside of a blue building walking towards it
30:01
Speaker 1: when these men jumped me and they started hitting me,
30:03
Speaker 1: and the one in the head hurt me the most.
30:08
Speaker 1: Described there was two Mexicans and then the third man.
30:10
Speaker 1: We just have an artist. I always worked with an
30:12
Speaker 1: artist when we have homicide cases, so it helps the
30:16
Speaker 1: police with the elimination of suspects. So the artist was
30:19
Speaker 1: drawing the faces I was seen. But I remember my
30:23
Speaker 1: head hurting so badly. Even after I came out of
30:26
Speaker 1: my tramps, I was still hurting. After describing the three men,
30:30
Speaker 1: the two Mexicans and the one other older man, they
30:35
Speaker 1: just started asking me questions and then I would respond
30:37
Speaker 1: to the questions. How we was killed? You know why
30:40
Speaker 1: I was killed. I saw a lot of numbers around
30:43
Speaker 1: the victim, and he turned out that he was into
30:47
Speaker 1: finance a great deal. Don't remember everything, but they were
30:51
Speaker 1: just very pleased with what I gave them. I forgot
30:55
Speaker 1: what else they wanted to know. Oh, I had to
30:57
Speaker 1: draw things for them. They they want to know what
30:58
Speaker 1: the gun looked like, and I was trying to tell
31:00
Speaker 1: them that you had to use two hands on it,
31:03
Speaker 1: and they still couldn't understand. So I got a piece
31:05
Speaker 1: of paper and a pen and drew it and it
31:07
Speaker 1: turned out it was like a K nine. I still
31:09
Speaker 1: don't know guns, but it drew it just like it
31:12
Speaker 1: it was, so they were very happy with all the evidence. Wow.
31:16
Speaker 1: I mean I did a lot more, but I can't
31:18
Speaker 1: remember everything, and I don't feel that I ever solved crumbs.
31:22
Speaker 1: I think that I'm like, I'm a tool and if
31:25
Speaker 1: they know how to use me, right, and a lot
31:27
Speaker 1: of police don't. If they knew how to use me,
31:30
Speaker 1: and I try to write how best I work, I'm
31:34
Speaker 1: just a tool for them to get more evidence, and
31:36
Speaker 1: that's what they bring to court. Wow. Back to our skeptic.
31:41
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator and professor forensics at Jacksonville
31:46
Speaker 1: State University. Okay, Joe Scott, did you hear that? Oh yeah,
31:49
Speaker 1: I heard it. Nancy heard it loud and clear, and
31:53
Speaker 1: for all I know, it could just be a random
31:54
Speaker 1: shot in the dark. So you're gonna have to prove
31:57
Speaker 1: it to me. And I'm not buying it. I'm not much.
32:00
Speaker 1: There's too much at risk here, There's too much, Joe Scott,
32:04
Speaker 1: hold on, you know what, That's what they said the
32:06
Speaker 1: first time somebody brought up the idea of fingerprints. I'll
32:08
Speaker 1: let you chew on that for a few moments. Alison
32:11
Speaker 1: Dubois Gail Saint John Noreen Ranier with us. Alison Dubois,
32:15
Speaker 1: you also have worked on particular criminal cases. Let's talk
32:21
Speaker 1: about Jackie Hartman, and remember everybody. Alison Dubois actually worked
32:27
Speaker 1: at the Miracopa County District Attorney's Office in Arizona. In fact,
32:31
Speaker 1: one of her task was organizing crime scene photos. I
32:34
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about a particular case, Jackie Hartman,
32:38
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old. What do you recall about that case,
32:43
Speaker 1: Alison Dubois. Well, I was taken to the last place
32:46
Speaker 1: she was seeing, which was kind of like a gas
32:49
Speaker 1: station convenience store, and the first thing that I picked
32:52
Speaker 1: up was that she went willingly. So then the next
32:56
Speaker 1: piece of information that I wrote down was date rate
32:59
Speaker 1: gone wrong. She'd been missing about two weeks at this point,
33:02
Speaker 1: I said, you can hear helicopters overhead where her body is,
33:06
Speaker 1: so they're looking in the right area. I said, there's
33:09
Speaker 1: a small barbecue nearby where you have like a cook out.
33:12
Speaker 1: Her body was rolled down a hill outside the city limits.
33:15
Speaker 1: I said the cell phone tower would be how they
33:18
Speaker 1: find her, and then I let them know that they
33:20
Speaker 1: would find her body in two weeks, which they did
33:23
Speaker 1: find her body in exactly two weeks. Alison Dubois is
33:27
Speaker 1: referring to the case of Jackie Hartman, a nineteen year
33:32
Speaker 1: old nursing student. Jackie's body was found in two thousand
33:36
Speaker 1: and seven, within hours of the time Dubois said it
33:41
Speaker 1: would be found. Jackie Hartman's date on the night of
33:45
Speaker 1: her disappearance was ultimately convicted of killing the young girl,
33:52
Speaker 1: Jackie Hartman, nineteen year old nursing student. Very interesting that
33:57
Speaker 1: she tells police that this was that the victim, Jackie,
34:02
Speaker 1: went with her killer willingly that it was a date
34:05
Speaker 1: rape to find the victim through cell phone records, specifically
34:10
Speaker 1: that she would be found in two weeks. She was
34:14
Speaker 1: found thirteen days and twenty something hours from the day
34:18
Speaker 1: the moment that Allison spoke with police. I mean, it
34:23
Speaker 1: just goes on and on and on. It's what do
34:28
Speaker 1: you have to say to your critics, Alison, Um, you know,
34:33
Speaker 1: I half of my friends are cops and the county
34:36
Speaker 1: attorneys prosecutors. So I'm critical of myself. So I know
34:41
Speaker 1: what information they need that can actually be helpful and
34:44
Speaker 1: what's just fluff. You know that some psychics give and
34:48
Speaker 1: they get pulled into the emotional state of the victim.
34:50
Speaker 1: I try to go through the killer myself instead of
34:53
Speaker 1: the victim. But for people who don't believe, it's not
34:57
Speaker 1: it really doesn't change my life if they don't believe,
35:00
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, at the end of the day,
35:02
Speaker 1: we all die, and everybody finds out that there's life
35:04
Speaker 1: after death and that you know, what we're doing to
35:07
Speaker 1: help to help the police when they hit a wall.
35:10
Speaker 1: We're just a last resort. We don't want to be
35:12
Speaker 1: their first choice of weapon. It's a lot of work
35:16
Speaker 1: for us, and it takes an emotional toll on us.
35:18
Speaker 1: I've never charged to work a case because I've been
35:21
Speaker 1: so blessed in life. It's just kind of how I've
35:23
Speaker 1: given back. But that's just personally how I've approached it. So,
35:27
Speaker 1: you know, as far as working cases, there was no
35:29
Speaker 1: monetary gain. And I guess one could say, well, you
35:32
Speaker 1: got a television show about it about you because of
35:35
Speaker 1: it and you did well, and I would argue that, well,
35:38
Speaker 1: then you're just proving that I'm a psychic, because then
35:41
Speaker 1: I knew I was going to become rich off of
35:44
Speaker 1: working cases, you know, So they can't have it both ways,
35:47
Speaker 1: and usually skeptics like to argue it so that no
35:51
Speaker 1: matter what we say or what we do, it's never
35:53
Speaker 1: going to be enough evidence or impressive enough. And so
35:56
Speaker 1: for those people, I don't really I don't bother with me.
36:00
Speaker 1: Noreene Renare, Gil's Saint John, Alison Dubois, Joseph Scott Morgan,
36:05
Speaker 1: death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University,
36:10
Speaker 1: My buddy Alan joining me from LA and Jackie Howard
36:13
Speaker 1: here in the studio. Joe Scott Morgan, you're chopping at
36:16
Speaker 1: the bit way in Joe Scott, Yeah, I gotta tell you.
36:19
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned fingerprints a moment ago as somebody said, hey,
36:23
Speaker 1: you know, you know we can't use these. You're right,
36:26
Speaker 1: you can't use them because it can't be quantified and
36:30
Speaker 1: it can't be proved. You have to be able to
36:31
Speaker 1: replicate this over and over and over using the same test.
36:35
Speaker 1: And that's how we validate things in forensic science, in
36:38
Speaker 1: science in general. You know that as a former prosecutor.
36:41
Speaker 1: Now I want to speak with Gil Saint John, who
36:44
Speaker 1: is a renowned psychic, and she was actually drawn to
36:48
Speaker 1: the spot where little Kelley Anthony's body was found months
36:53
Speaker 1: before the body was found and even has video to
36:56
Speaker 1: prove it. She came forward to say she was not
36:59
Speaker 1: surprised Kelly was found in the woods off Suburban Drive,
37:02
Speaker 1: that she had been in that area and drawn to
37:05
Speaker 1: that area months before. Gail Saint John and her search
37:09
Speaker 1: team is so called the Body Hunters, went to Orlando
37:13
Speaker 1: to search for Kelly, and on their very first day
37:16
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, she leads them on a blind drive
37:20
Speaker 1: to this spot. Gail Saint John, can you even explain
37:24
Speaker 1: what's going on in your mind when you have this
37:27
Speaker 1: sort of experience? You know, I'm not sure that there's
37:30
Speaker 1: anything in a sense that you could say is totally
37:33
Speaker 1: going on, except for it's almost your sort of trance
37:38
Speaker 1: like semitrance. You're hearing, you're feeling things from the other
37:44
Speaker 1: side as well as you're Obviously, if you're driving, you
37:47
Speaker 1: have to be very conscious and aware of your driving.
37:50
Speaker 1: But it's something I've always done, is that blind drive.
37:53
Speaker 1: I get to an area and I go to where
37:54
Speaker 1: the person was last seen, and then I pick up
37:57
Speaker 1: on what happened, how I get to their body, and
38:01
Speaker 1: I just allow myself to drive where the feeling gets stronger.
38:07
Speaker 1: If you've ever played that hot and cold game when
38:09
Speaker 1: you were a kid. Yes, that's what it feels like. Really,
38:13
Speaker 1: I'm going left left, Nope, nope, not losing the feeling movement,
38:16
Speaker 1: feeling go the other direction, Yep, yep, it's getting stronger
38:19
Speaker 1: going this way, and you follow. Yeah, what can you
38:22
Speaker 1: tell me about Stephen Hoff? Stepan Hoff was a person
38:29
Speaker 1: that they suspected he had left suicide and had left
38:34
Speaker 1: a note. They had had searchers out several times looking
38:38
Speaker 1: for him. He's been missing around eight weeks at the
38:43
Speaker 1: time that our team was called out. Now, this was
38:48
Speaker 1: a team case, so you have to tread lightly on
38:52
Speaker 1: this because you're going out as a canine handler called
38:55
Speaker 1: out by police. Sort of a conflict of interest with
38:59
Speaker 1: the two. They don't they don't see the psychic and
39:02
Speaker 1: they don't know that I'm psychic. They don't have any
39:05
Speaker 1: information on this. They're calling us out to do a search.
39:08
Speaker 1: They don't even know if he's in this area, and
39:09
Speaker 1: it's a very large preserve area. And we get out there.
39:16
Speaker 1: On that case, I run my canine. I got some
39:19
Speaker 1: information off of my canine. If people don't understand, there's
39:23
Speaker 1: a lot to run a canine. You just don't turn
39:24
Speaker 1: your dog loose and go hey, yeah, you got to
39:27
Speaker 1: understand scent theory and how it all works. He gave
39:30
Speaker 1: me some signs in an area that I was told
39:33
Speaker 1: to go over into, and I had two other backup
39:37
Speaker 1: handlers with me, and he kind of told me a
39:41
Speaker 1: story in what he was doing, but my feelings were
39:46
Speaker 1: overriding some of this. Now by this time, the park
39:49
Speaker 1: is getting very busy with people walking on trails and thinking, okay,
39:54
Speaker 1: let's think about logics here. I'm gonna turn a canine loose.
39:57
Speaker 1: We've got people walking in this area over here and
40:01
Speaker 1: they're walking dogs. It's gonna be a problem. It's gonna
40:05
Speaker 1: be a problem. So what finally happened We turned and
40:08
Speaker 1: looked at the two girls with me, and they sort
40:11
Speaker 1: of kind of knew that I did some psychic stuff.
40:13
Speaker 1: But listen, we're all about knines right there. You know
40:15
Speaker 1: that that's that's the bottom line. So and I said,
40:19
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put my dog up, and said what I said, Yeah,
40:22
Speaker 1: I want to put my dog off. I want to
40:23
Speaker 1: walk around on foot over here. Okay, So we looked
40:26
Speaker 1: at the canine up and I went walking around, and
40:31
Speaker 1: I knew, you know, I said, I gonna turn this on.
40:34
Speaker 1: This has got to happen. I gotta, you know, nip
40:37
Speaker 1: this in the bud right now. We gotta find this guy.
40:40
Speaker 1: I just turned it on. I said, I don't know
40:42
Speaker 1: what to you know, I'm not even gonna say anything
40:44
Speaker 1: to my my backup handlers. I just turned it on,
40:48
Speaker 1: went with my feelings, began walking, going in different places,
40:52
Speaker 1: and they're running behind me, going, Gael, what's going on?
40:54
Speaker 1: What's going what are you doing? What? Slow down? I couldn't.
40:58
Speaker 1: I couldn't slow down by that poet. It was so
41:01
Speaker 1: strong the poll. I just went and kept walking him.
41:04
Speaker 1: I can't hold back what happened. I walked right up
41:08
Speaker 1: on his body, walked right up on him. Okay, guys,
41:12
Speaker 1: Narene Wir, Gail Saint John, Alison Dubois, Alison Dubois, could
41:18
Speaker 1: you tell me? You told me your first experience, but
41:21
Speaker 1: what was your most powerful psychic experience? Um? I heard
41:25
Speaker 1: a voice say, your dad's gonna die at sixty seven
41:28
Speaker 1: of a massive heart attack. So I sent my dad
41:31
Speaker 1: to all the heart specialists trying to intervene and save him.
41:37
Speaker 1: And he had been a professional ballroom dancer for fifty years.
41:41
Speaker 1: He was in good shape and he died at sixty
41:43
Speaker 1: seven of a massive heart attack. And I think that
41:46
Speaker 1: one was probably the most profound because it was my father. Wow,
41:50
Speaker 1: you're really hitting a nerve. Lost my dad and I
41:53
Speaker 1: just miss him so much. Narene Er, what was your
41:59
Speaker 1: most powerful psychic experience? Uh? Mine was, of course my
42:05
Speaker 1: police work. For the first five years, all I did
42:08
Speaker 1: was homicide because I'm really bad with left and right
42:11
Speaker 1: and I can get lost in a kmart, so I
42:13
Speaker 1: never tried to find people. I just told everybody I'm homicide. Well, uh,
42:19
Speaker 1: FBI agent's life that knew about my work contact me,
42:23
Speaker 1: and her brother was missing in an airplane. H And
42:26
Speaker 1: at first I want to do it, Okay, say no,
42:28
Speaker 1: I don't do that, And then finally actually brought me
42:30
Speaker 1: some stuff that he had touched, a wallet and a
42:33
Speaker 1: coined thing, and I did the case, and I gave
42:37
Speaker 1: launch situde and latitude and the initials of the cities,
42:41
Speaker 1: and they found in the plane that it hadn't it
42:44
Speaker 1: was in a plane, of course, and hadn't exploded. And
42:46
Speaker 1: I remember visually seeing somebody carrying something in places under
42:51
Speaker 1: a tree, uh and then walking away and then I
42:54
Speaker 1: opened my eyes and said, no, you just want him
42:56
Speaker 1: to be alive. I'm not doing this anymore. And when
42:58
Speaker 1: they found the airplane, it was a hit. This woman
43:01
Speaker 1: sitting under a tree like somebody had carried her there,
43:03
Speaker 1: and her brother had walked several yards away. But that
43:06
Speaker 1: was my most because I'd never had been into missing
43:09
Speaker 1: people and it was a whole whole new and I'm
43:12
Speaker 1: really good at it now. Wow, Gail Saint John, you
43:15
Speaker 1: told me how you initially realized that you had this
43:19
Speaker 1: extrasensory perception. What was your most profound, your most powerful,
43:24
Speaker 1: I guess psychic experience or vision. I really got to say.
43:27
Speaker 1: It concerned my grandmother. She was living with us at
43:32
Speaker 1: the time, and two days prior to her passing, I
43:38
Speaker 1: was told about it, and it was a semi dream state,
43:42
Speaker 1: but I was very conscious of what was going on,
43:45
Speaker 1: I think because at the time I was I was
43:47
Speaker 1: fourteen years old. I really fought it and it was
43:50
Speaker 1: painful and I want to ignore it. And two days
43:53
Speaker 1: later she passed away. And that's very powerful and painful,
43:58
Speaker 1: and so many things all at the same time with me.
44:01
Speaker 1: Renowned psychics, so called psychic detectives Narene Rnair, Gil Saint John,
44:07
Speaker 1: Alison Dubois and skeptic Joseph Scott Morgan. Ladies, thank you
44:13
Speaker 1: for sharing with us. You know, Joe Scott, I guess
44:16
Speaker 1: you and I will continue putting forth hard evidence as
44:20
Speaker 1: we call it, but it's very hard to put on
44:22
Speaker 1: blinders and try to ignore the stories that have been
44:26
Speaker 1: factually corroborated from Alison Dubois, Gail Saint John, and Narene Rner,
44:35
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime Stories signing up, goodbye friend,