Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Is She a Toxic Friend or Are You? Danielle Bayard Jackson

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Is She a Toxic Friend or Are You? Danielle Bayard Jackson · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer. Closer to truths.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Closer to each other. Even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Danielle Robay, and each week my guests and I come
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask, what if? Why not?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: And who says? So come curious. Dig deep. and join
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. We spend years
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: learning how to find a partner. We spend almost no
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: time learning how to keep a friend. Isn't that kind
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: of strange? If I asked you to name the most
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: important relationships in your life, I bet you'd start with
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: your partner, if you have one. Maybe your parents, your kids,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I wonder how many of us would say our friends.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: And yet for women, about 70% of our social network
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: is made up of other women. Our friendships shape our confidence,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: our health, our resilience, even how we respond to stress.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Researchers actually have a name for it. It's called tend
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: and befriend. When life gets hard, one of our first
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: instincts is to turn toward each other. So Here's the
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: question I've been sitting with. If friendship is one of
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the most important relationships we'll ever have, why does everyone
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: assume we should just know how to do it? No
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: one teaches us how to make friends as adults, how
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: to repair a friendship after conflict, how to tell someone
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: they hurt you, or how to be the kind of
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: friend that someone can really count on. So here's the
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: question I've been sitting with. If friendship is one of
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: the most important relationships we'll ever have, why does everyone
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: assume we should just know how to do it? This week,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: we're revisiting one of, I think, the most memorable conversations
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: we've ever had on the podcast. And it feels especially
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: timely because summer has a way of putting friendships front
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: and center. Weddings, vacations, girls trips, reunions. We're spending more
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: time with people we love, which I think also means
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: we're paying closer attention to the relationships that fill us
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: up and the ones that leave us wondering. Now, when
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: this episode first aired, A moment completely took on a
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: life of its own. I shared a story about friendship
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: that ended in betrayal. You'll hear it on the pod.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: But I also shared it on TikTok and it exploded.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: It was the first time that I really had insane
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: comments online, both on Instagram and TikTok. And it honestly
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: reminded me of something I probably should have known already.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: We're all talking about friendship. We're just not talking to
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: each other about friendship sometimes. And that's why I wanted
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: to revisit this conversation. Danielle Bayer Jackson is one of
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: the world's leading experts on female friendship. She's a friendship coach,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: a researcher, former teacher, and the best-selling author of Fighting
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: for Our Friendships. She spent years studying the science and
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: psychology behind why our friendships matter so much and why
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: they can sometimes hurt just as much as our romantic relationships.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Here's what's so interesting. She says we're only ever asking
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: two questions in friendships.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Can I love fully here? And who is going to
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: love me fully? Like I want to love and I
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: want to be loved. If it's a question about like
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: texting and she doesn't text me as much as I
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: or she didn't show up for my thing. And does she?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: You're really asking about does she love me as much
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: as I love her? You know, does she love me?
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Am I over invested in this? I mean, really, it's
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: always stripped down to trying to answer those two questions.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: So beautiful, right? Now, this conversation is about friendship, but
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: it's also about loneliness and conflict and forgiveness, boundaries, gossip, weddings,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and the courage it takes to let yourself be fully known.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: And Danielle Bayard Jackson's two questions have me rethinking the
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: question that I'm asking in this conversation. Because maybe the
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: question isn't how do I make better friends? Maybe it's
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: who are the people worth fighting for? And do they
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: know it? It's time to question everything with Danielle Bayard Jackson. Danielle,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: I've never said this before. Danielle, welcome to Pretty Smart.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, I'm so excited to be meeting you
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: and to be diving into this conversation.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Me too. Your title is Female Friendship Coach.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: You wrote in your book that people were very skeptical
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: of that at the beginning. Why were they skeptical?
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Because it's like, is that a real job? And I
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: started off as a high school teacher, and I feel
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: like that was met with a lot of reverence and respect.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: And then I was a publicist. And then that made
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: me feel like a badass. And so now being at
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: parties and people are like, what do you do? And
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: being like, oh, I'm a French. You know, I think
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: people are still skeptical because we don't see friendship itself
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  Speaker 2: as something that commands that kind of respect.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: And what did you see in high schools that you
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: thought this was such a needed thing?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I taught seniors. So I have 12th graders.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: They're about to go into the real world. But between
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: classes and after school, it's the number one thing they
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: wanted to talk about. So I kind of had like
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: a front row seat to how their issues with connection
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: and belonging directly impacted their confidence, their attendance, their mood.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: And then I left the classroom and got into public relations.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm working with these beautiful, high achieving,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: charismatic women. And it wasn't long before I found out privately,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: secretly that they're struggling with issues and their friendship with
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: other women. And that's when I was like, okay, so
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: this is a thing. And for the past six years,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: I've dedicated my career to studying what the latest research
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I love that you just started your own career. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It was born out of necessity.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. About, you know, if you Google books, at least
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: at the time that I got into it, there weren't
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: many friendship books that popped up. And of the ones
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: that came up, they were mostly for children. And it's like, okay,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: because that's how we see friendship, that surely a child
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: would need support. But if you're an adult, you should
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: have it figured out.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I definitely didn't. Did you have it figured out?
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, I'm still learning. I'm still figuring it out.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like, I guess it's kind of like
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of pressure too. Like people really expect you
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: to show up as the friend. They do.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: It's funny because sometimes even on social, people will comment like,
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: oh God, I wish I was friends with you. I'm
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: just like, oh God, don't let my real friends do that.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Because they'd be like, girl, let me tell you. So
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I'm figuring it out too. I'm a woman out here
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: in the world figuring it out too, but it is
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: helpful to look at this research and stuff because it
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: certainly informs the decisions that I make with my friends.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: So you said when you came onto the scene, there
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: weren't a ton of books. I think there's so many
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: books about romance. There's a few books. There's not very
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: many still about friendship. What do you think that says
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: about how we value it in society?
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Especially for women, it's It's something that is a big milestone, partnership,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: being partnered. And even our friends, they're well-meaning, but they're like, okay,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: so what's the update with the guy? Are we getting closer?
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: It's like all this pressure to move toward this accomplishment.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: So of course there are going to be all these
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: resources that emerge to support you on that journey. But
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I think we still see friendship as like an easy, natural,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: organic thing. And for women especially, we're like, oh, you're
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: naturally communal. Like what support do you need? Go talk
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: to your girls. But it's complicated. We know that to
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: be true. But if there's an assumption that it should
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: be natural, And that something's wrong with you. If you
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: can't get it right, then you're not going to see
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of resources emerge to support us through what
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I would argue is probably one of the most important
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: relationships you'll ever have.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Why do you say one of the most important relationships
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: you'll ever have?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, friendship should be at the heart of romantic relationships.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: So we start right there. I'm not into, you know,
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  Speaker 2: a guy liking me if I don't think he'd make
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  Speaker 2: a good friend to me, you know, because the liking fades.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: And so friendship should be at the heart of romantic relationships.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: But also, you know, for women specifically, You know, the
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: research tells us that 70% of a woman's social network
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: is other women. So to me, I'm like, well, then
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: I better figure out a way to connect with other
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: women because it's everywhere. So yeah, I think there's a
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: lot of, we have to figure out culturally to raise
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: friendship to the spot where it should be. But I
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: do see things leaning that way, more friendship content. So
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: that makes me excited.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Tell me about the data. I know you're a data girl.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: What does it say about how our friendships impact our life,
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  Speaker 1: our health, our emotions?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so- I get so excited about this because a
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: lot of times when we talk about female friendship, it's like,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: you know, here's some ways to, you know, go to brunch.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Here's some spots. And it's like, that's all fun. But
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: there's so much discourse around friendship as like a recreational
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: thing that you put in the margins of your lives.
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  Speaker 2: And it's fun. And it is. But there's just way
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: too much research that draws a direct line between your
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: female friendship specifically. and your physical, mental, and emotional health.
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  Speaker 2: And so, you know, the first thing is that when
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: women are stressed, one of our stress responses is to
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: go and gather with other women. So many of us
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: are already familiar with the concept of fight or flight,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: But they did that study again, this time with women.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: And they found that we have other responses.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: We do? We do.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: It's called tend or befriend. So fight or flight or
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: tend or befriend. So when we're stressed, additional responses we
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: might have are to go tend to those who we
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: deem as more vulnerable and make sure they're okay. Or
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: to go and befriend and group and gather with our girls.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: And it decreases our cortisol. So that's probably why when
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: you're stressed out and you call a girlfriend, afterwards, it's
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: just like this kind of like a high, like, ah.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: because that's what we do. And so for women who
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: don't have that outlet, you might, you know, risk not
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: having that benefit. And then, you know, women, they've done
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: studies with women who are going through breast cancer and
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: the ones who have a strong, expansive social network tend
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: to have better outcomes. Let me say it like that. So,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's just so many ways where having strong
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: relationships with other women impacts other areas of your life.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I leave dinner with my friends and I feel so
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: much happier and better about life. And so is that
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: everyone or that's like predominantly female?
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, hanging out with friends, no matter who
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: you are, it's like such a mood boost, right? But
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: I think for women, it's maybe so much more satisfying
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: because it is safe and okay for us culturally to
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: share about our feelings, about our health. There's even research
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: that shows that we're more likely than men to talk
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: about mental health. work, things that are relational. So it
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: does feel very satisfying. Whereas with men, maybe in some spaces,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: they feel like they don't have the same freedom or
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: that it says, okay, so maybe y'all are going and
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: playing ball, but did you really get counsel? Did you
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: get emotional support? So it looks a little bit different.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: You mentioned you started as a high school teacher. Are
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: there things that you saw girls deal with in friendship
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: in high school that we grow out of as adults
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: or do you see too often that we actually aren't
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: growing out of those things?
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: You know, I always say, I think it's the same thing.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I've worked with teenagers and adults, like that fear of rejection,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: that fear of not belonging is the same. We might
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: hide it differently or navigate it differently. But a lot
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: of times when you don't want to initiate something or
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: reach out or tell another woman, like, okay, you seem
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: really cool. I'd love to get coffee where it feels
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: like a social risk. That's the same. And so it's
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: so funny because I made the foolish mistake of thinking
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have to deal with that when I was
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: no longer a teacher, but you know, I learned very
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: quickly that at every stage of womanhood, we're trying to
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: navigate that kind of relationship.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. Have you read Tools of Titans?
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: No.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Tim Ferriss, who's a podcaster, it's like his book.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: And he has, it's an anthology. So he has like
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: best of interviews in there. And Gabby Reese, who I
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: think was a volleyball player, talks about going first. And
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: when I read that part, it changed my whole life
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: because she says, when I walk down the street, I
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: smile first. When I'm in a new room, I say
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: hello first. And it's never bad to go first. I
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: really try and emulate that. So- That's nice to hear.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I feel like that changes the game
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: because we're often waiting for these cues that guarantee safety. Well,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: if she smiles at me first, then okay, I'm safe here.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Now I'll do it back. But it's just very reactive
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: and we have to feel more empowered to be the
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: authority figure and the author of our own friendship story.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, it sounds kind of like woo-woo,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: but it's like if you tell yourself, I am a connector.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: That's who I am. Like as an identity, then you're
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: more likely to lean into those behaviors because it's an
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: extension of who you are, as opposed to seeing as
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: behaviors that you sometimes try on in a fleeting moment
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: of confidence. It's who I am. So I'm going to text,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: whether you text back or not, you crossed my mind.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to say, oh, I'm thinking of you.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I hope you're doing okay. Because that's who I am.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: So I think that reframe is kind of helpful.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: It really is. Interesting too, because I read in your
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: book that in the past, you were, quote, unable to
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: be vulnerable in your friendships. So you were nervous about
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: being the authority. You were nervous about sharing what you
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: really felt. What does that mean? And why is vulnerability
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: so central to our female friendships?
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'm trying to figure that out too, still.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: What is that reluctance to let friends see you be
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: weak or weird or to let you see me in
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: these states and still working through that on some things.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: But self-disclosure is the glue of women's friendships, sharing and
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: having her share with you. It's how we establish and
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: negotiate trust. So if you think about it, if you're
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: starting to lean into being friends with another woman, you're
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: probably sharing a little more because you like her and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: you're trying to start a friendship. So you're sharing to
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: cue to her, I like you, I'm trying to bond
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: with you. And when you're in an established friendship and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: there starts to be mistrust, or you're like turned off
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: by something, you share less. And she notices that. I've
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: seen a lot of jokes on TikTok and stuff and
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: social media around, you know, POV, you know, when your
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: friend is slowly fading you out, it's because you start
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: to get the one word answers. And we're like, yeah, cool.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Because we share and that's how we signal closeness. And
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: whenever there's tension, we tend to withhold. And that's just
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: kind of like how that barometer of our friendship state.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: So now having, like knowing that that's something that you're
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: working on, what is your barometer? Because sometimes I'm trying
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: to share less. I feel very open bookie and I'm like,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: you know what? Maybe not all my friends need to
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: know all the things.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Like what is that line?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So this is a great point
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: because now when we think of the word vulnerability, most
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: of us do think about self-disclosure. Like if I say
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: you need to be vulnerable, like, okay, I need to
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: share something big, but I always like to differentiate, you know,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: sharing some big childhood trauma thing that might be a
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: level 10 of vulnerability. But the best way I've heard
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: vulnerability defined is like taking a risk of possible rejection
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: or So that could be with positive things too. So
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: telling another woman like, I really like you and I
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: would love to hang out might feel very risky to me.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: You know, so that's vulnerability too. So it just means like,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: am I safe to make mistakes here? That's vulnerability. Do
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: I feel safe to shine here, which is a big one?
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Is it okay for me to tell friends like, oh
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: my God, I got this opportunity? Or do I feel
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: like that would make me a target? So vulnerability is
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do or say something and I feel
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: like it could cost me. They might look at me
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: differently or misunderstand me. So in that way, can you
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: make yourself known and seen? It might not necessarily entail
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: self-disclosure directly, but just being seen as not being totally
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: put together in front of your friends. Yeah.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: I really like that. Level one through 10. Yeah. I'm
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: going to remember that one.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Friendships and conflict.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: The title of your book is called Fighting for Our Friendships.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Why is conflict so central to your book?
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Okay. So there's a lot of content on how to
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: make friends. And I love talking about it. I do.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: And, you know, we have so many life transitions that,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: you know, you're always going to be having to make friends,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: new friends, right? But I don't see as much content
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: on conflict. And when I do, it feels hyper situational. Like, okay, well,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: after this many tries, then stop calling her. Like, it's
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: very specific. But it's like, I want to take an
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: aerial view. What is that about? Like, why do we
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: fight over certain things? How do we constitute a violation?
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: It's different from the way that men do. And so
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: I feel like we'd have more successful and satisfying friendships
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: if we learned how to handle conflict because it's inevitable.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: But what's so interesting to me is that we anticipate
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: conflict in every other context. Like I know I might
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: get into it with my coworkers. I know I'm probably
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: going to get into it with my boo. Okay. We're
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: going to have to talk, babe. You know, But there's
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: something about friendship where we subscribe to the idea that
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: it should be easy because we just have chemistry, especially
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: if it's with another woman. Like I should have to
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: explain it. Like you're a woman. Yeah. We have like intuition.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: You should know. So when conflict does happen, I feel
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: like it's the only context where it happens and we
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: suddenly see that conflict as evidence of, oh, we're not
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: as compatible as I thought because this is like awkward.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe we're not as close. And so we're ending friendships
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: prematurely because it's like a foreign concept to push through
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: the conflict with a friend.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: So I have certain friends who, and this is always
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: a red flag to me. They're not really my friends anymore.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Friends that always have conflict with other friends. Cause I
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: know it's coming my way. What is the line between
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: healthy and unhealthy conflict?
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah. Cause we have some
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: friends who there's always something and it's like, can you,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: can you find some kind of peace.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: In your life at To me, that's unhappiness in yourself. Oh, totally.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I mean, okay. So I like to just
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: define it like this, you know, you know, so if
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: we're in a friendship, I'm bringing my goals, my needs,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: my preferences, sensitivities to the table and you are too.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: At some point, there's going to be competing interests. At
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: some point, something I need is something you can't give.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: It's going to happen. But the difference between healthy and
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: unhealthy is, you know, if it's healthy, we're trying to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: figure out how to meet this goal together and Somebody
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: has a need we're trying to meet. Like it's constructive.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: So we're talking through it. We're taking space to figure
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: it out to think that's constructive. But as soon as
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: it's like I'm going to do things to maintain disconnection,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: what is the point? So that means the silent treatment
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: because I'm upset at you. Or being punitive, women who punish.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: You know, if she wants to do that, then I'm
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: barely going to talk to her. What's the point?
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: That's not nice.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: I'm roping in a third party. I'm telling a friend,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: but I'm not telling her like, you know, she and I,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: we can't see eye to eye, like help me out here.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: That's different. But if it's like, do you feel like
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: sometimes she gets shady? Because I feel like sometimes, what
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: is the point? So when it comes to that tension,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: what are we doing to mend it? And if it's,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: if we're doing things that only deepen the disharmony, that
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: is unproductive.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Speaking of red flags.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: So you asked your followers to weigh in with their
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: new friend, red flags. And the answer from women was
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: overwhelmingly the same.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Her talking about other people.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Gossip.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: No, what Susie says of Sally says more of Susie
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: than of Sally. No one likes a gossiper. It's bad vibes.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: And we all like have our, you know, we all
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: have our moments, right? Like I love some good tea.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Like she did what? You know, but there's something about
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: we just met or we're new and our conversation is
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: you tearing down another woman. For most of us, we're
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: taking the message of like, oh, okay, so I wouldn't
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: be safe here. What would she be saying about me?
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: You know, so it doesn't do much to help move
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: that friendship forward in a safe way.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: I'm going to keep asking you about this line because
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I think you walk it so beautifully. gossip can also
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: be bonding sometimes. Barbara Walters, who I love, everyone who
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: listens to this knows I love Barbara. She famously was like,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: loved gossip. It's one thing I differ with her on,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: probably few, but what's the line between okay gossip, bonding gossip,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: and problematic gossip?
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Deborah Tannen is a sociolinguist who looks at
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: the way women speak, the way men speak, And she
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: defines it as, are you talking about them or talking
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: against them? And that can help you see, okay, what
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: are we doing here? Because one of the top topics
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: people talk about is other people, just from like a
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: sociological standpoint. And to some degree, gossip is... is a
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: good thing. Like it came to have a negative connotation
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: that we're just like slinging this other person. But, you know,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: historically the word has come to mean something negative, but
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: it really means like we're talking about a person who's
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: not in the room to some extent. I, we have
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: to do that because it helps us establish norms. Like
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: if I come to a new job and people like, Hey,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: you know, you want to be careful with this behavior
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: because this happened. It's showing me what's acceptable here. What's not,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: who's an ally, who's a foe. So at some point
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: I need that information exchange to know. But there's a
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: difference between we're just like, oh, my God, isn't she awful?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: She is awful, right? Like, she's bad vibes. It's a
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: totally different objective, you know?
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: With someone or against somebody. Yeah.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Are you talking about or against?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Jealousy. Friendship, jealousy. You say sometimes it can be beneficial.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. Can you please tell me what you mean?
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay. So as I've learned it, the difference between
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: jealousy and envy, we'll start there. So envy requires two
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: people and jealousy involves three. So envy is I want
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: something you have. I wish that was mine. Envy. But
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: jealousy means I'm scared that something I have is going
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: to be taken away. So if we're tight friends and
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: a new girl comes and you keep talking about how
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: amazing your new coworker is. Eventually we'll be like, okay, okay,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: that's enough because I'm jealous over you. I'm jealous that
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: she might take what I already have. Envy is I
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: want what you.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Have, right?
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: But jealousy could be a good thing in terms of
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: it tends to activate friend-keeping behaviors. So it might make
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: me step up and do the things I need to
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: to keep our closeness because I feel like, whoa, this
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: might get taken from me. So now I step up.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: It can be constructive in that way. But in terms
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: of friendship envy, kind of like, oh, I'm jealous of you.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I think it could be helpful in terms of directing
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: me toward the things that i want and desire in
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: my life but as soon as it turns into i'm
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: saying things to humble you because i think you're getting
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: a little too or i'm trying to like sabotage and
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: get in the way of you achieving certain things or
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: i'm trying to tear you down either verbally or mentally
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: so i feel better right so like if you get
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: a new apartment and my brain is thinking like how
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: does she get that like she doesn't even that's where
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: it would be a problem It's.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: A huge problem.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I feel like you cannot have people around you that
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: don't want the best for you. I know it's like
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: a little evil eye.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: That's like a quality that I really don't have time for.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard because we always say, you know,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I want friendships where I can relax and be myself.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: but as soon as you feel like you're always on
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: guard and now I'm measuring what I say and what
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: I share because I don't want her to make a
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: little passive aggressive remark, or I don't want her to
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: think that I think I'm all that. It's a lot
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: of mental labor and, you know, safety is like fundamental
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: in a friendship. And so if that's not there, I mean,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: come on.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize that safety was such a big deal.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Cause I mean, safety is so core of any, like
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: it's the core of any relationship. So obviously it would be,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: but I didn't even think about This next question could
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: be maybe my biggest question of the whole interview. Okay.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Friendship expectations. So women have friendship expectations that I don't
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: see the traditional man having, for instance. birthdays, bachelorette parties,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: baby showers, celebrations of any kind, we are expected to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: show up and show out in ways that men are
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: just not socially, like the norm, right? I feel like
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I hear often that these celebrations, particularly weddings, are big
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: sources of conflict. I want to kind of go through
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: some of them with you. But overarchingly, why do you
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: think that women expect more out of friendships than men?
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because the research finds that women
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: have higher expectations of their close relationships in general. So
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: if you're a close relationship in my life, I expect
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: a lot out of you. Whether it's romantic or platonic,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: our expectations are just higher in general than men's. And
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many reasons for that. I think
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: that for a woman-to-woman friendship, it might be what we
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: said earlier about like I expect that since you're a woman,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I expect you to be able to read what I need,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: read my subtext and microexpressions, anticipate my needs. I shouldn't
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: have to articulate them. And I hear oftentimes women say
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: to me, I mean, I should not have to say that.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Like Danielle, like she should know. Like it's just like
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: crazy to us that I'd have to explain myself because
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: you should know. You're walking my exact same shoes. And
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: so I think that right there starts to create a
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: little bit of a dissatisfaction.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Is the flip side of that that if we expect more,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: do we also get more out of our friendships?
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's if you expect more, you get more.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I think it's if you communicate more, you get more.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Because I think the dissatisfaction we experience is compounded by
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: the fact that we feel like we shouldn't have to
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: say it. But I mean, you're never going to transcend
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: a level of closeness that means you won't have to
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: communicate anymore. I still have to tell my friends, not demands,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: but like, hey, I think this year I want to
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: think I'm going to do a peg for my birthday.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I never do. And this year, that would be really
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: important to me. I still have to say that. I
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: can't do the whole, I mean, it's my birthday. Do
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I really have to spell that out? It's just, I mean,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: you could hold it. onto that if you want to.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: But essentially, your friends never really know, like, are we
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: low key? Are we not? Are we?
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Right, you have to communicate where you're at. Now, what
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: happens if the expectations are mismatched with what people are
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: willing to give or show up as? So for instance,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: bachelorette parties, I'm going to personalize.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, hypothetically. Yeah.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I hate bachelorette parties. And I know that's like similar
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: to admitting that you don't like dogs. So I'm scared
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: to admit this.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Dangerous territory. Very dangerous. No, I get you. But tell
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: me why. What is it that has you just so
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: turned off by them?
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. I travel a lot for work and personally. So
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: to carve out travel for a specific bachelorette feels like
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: a lot for me because I don't feel like I'm
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: getting a lot out of the experience, which I know
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: is selfish. But like, I don't like a lot of
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the common activities. You're inviting me to a spa. I'll
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: get on a plane. If you're inviting me to wear
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: a penis hat and go out till 3 a.m., I'm
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: not in. But I'm totally cool if that's your vibe.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I just don't want to be there. And I'd love
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: to show up for you in a different way.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I actually don't know if I'm navigating this well. What
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: would you say to someone like me?
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Well, first let me ask you, how do you say no?
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Like when you get that invitation, you see the itinerary,
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: how do you manage that?
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so one of my really close friends, I actually
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: went because I knew it was really important to her.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: And I was like, this, sometimes you need to give
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: in relationship. But for friends that I know don't care
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: as much about a bachelorette, I'm like, listen, this is
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: really tough for me with travel and financially. Mm-hmm. I
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: don't want to upset you. If it's very important to
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: you that I'm there, I will show up. I'd rather
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: show up for you in a different way, like if
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: we can go to dinner separately and celebrate, et cetera.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And they're usually like, I don't give a, you know?
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: And some of my friends even have said to me,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: With the invitation, they know me enough to say, I
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: know this isn't your thing, but you're obviously invited, which
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, bachelorettes can be tricky. I think
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: it's because it feels like, okay, I only get one
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: of these. And so from the perspective of the bride,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I only get one of these. This is my time.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I've been looking at examples of this for like 30 years.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: This is my turn. And like such grand expectations. But
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I was once talking to this therapist who specializes in
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: helping women during their wedding season.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Wait, what?
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Because there's so, Kara the bridal coach, shout out to her.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: But she was saying, and it was like such brilliant advice.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: She said that sometimes a bride is so fixated on
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: the vision, she loses sight of the relationships. And you
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: were trying to fit those relationships into the vision. And
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: you're going to have to do some soul searching.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Really, you're considering ending a friendship because you have a
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: friend who can't make it, can't afford it, doesn't want
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: to do certain activities that she feels like are compromising
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: for her. Now you're questioning the entire relationship. And I
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: get being disappointed. I get having the picture of all
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: my favorite girls in one spot celebrating me at the
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: same time. It's very romantic. It's a very fun idea.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: But you're going to have to call into question like, okay,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: what evidence has this woman given me over the course
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: of our friendship? that she's supportive, attentive, down for me. Okay,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: if this is inconsistent with everything else she's done, I'm
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: going to have to just be bummed and move on.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: But I'm sorry. I see too many of these conversations
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: on social that are like, well, she doesn't X, Y, Z.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: She's not a real friend. And that list is just
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: getting really long and really specific. And at the end
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: of the day, whether it's wedding, bridal party, whatever, it's
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: does the context of the history of our friendship outweigh
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: this moment where I really want something and she can't
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: make it? I mean, a little nuance, you know?
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Well, also it feels like in this day and age,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: it's got, the celebration has gotten really large. Like it's
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: one thing if you're asking everyone in that city to
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: come to dinner one night versus like travel to New
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Orleans and meet me there for three days and take
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: off a day of work and buy, you know, like
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: it's just, A lot, I think.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for the woman in that role, like
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: look at how many barriers are erected during your ask.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: So if it's commute, time off, money, I mean like
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: you have to really think through those things because they're costs.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: They are financial, whatever. I'm away from my babies for
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: three days. What are all the costs that are required
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: of friends to show up for you? And that's something
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: you got to be kind of practical.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I love the part of your book where you talk
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: about weddings. It's like, I don't like everyone needs to
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: read the book because it's just, it's so it was,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: I savored it.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying that.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: It is. I mean it to my core. It is
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: so freaking great and fun to read. Oh good.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: It really made me think. One, I want everyone to
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: read the wedding section. But the one thing that stood
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: out to me was you said a lot of friendships
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: end around that time. Why is that?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: You know, it makes me kind of like annoyed when
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: people dismiss wedding stuff as like, oh, gosh, here we
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: go with the drama. And it's like, well, yeah, because
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: this is the one time in your life you're expected
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: to put your friendships on display and to rank them.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: So maybe my whole life I've been thinking I'm like
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: your number one girl.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: And when you choose somebody else to be the maid
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: of honor, you've got me questioning everything. And I mean,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: this is client after client I've had these conversations with.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: We're talking like reasonable women who are like, she didn't
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: choose me. And I don't know if I want to
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: continue the friendship. And I don't think it's petty because
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: they're calling into question, wait a second, have I been
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: a fool? I've been thinking we're super tight. And for
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: you to select this other person makes me question my
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: place in your life. And the research does show that
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: mutual prioritization is very important for women. So if I'm
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: your number two girl, I like to feel like, you know,
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: you're my number two girl. It makes me feel good. Yes.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: And so as soon as you discover that you're like
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: number four, but you've been thinking you're number one, you're
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: trying to kind of gauge what that means. And it's
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: really hard.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Do you think wedding parties should be abolished?
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: I can't tell a woman what to do. I will
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: say I am happy to see women leaning into saying,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: you know what? I'm not going to have a bridal party.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to skip it. I'm seeing them do
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: that more. And I am hearing them report a certain
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: level of joy and freedom in making that decision.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: So speaking of this bridal party stuff, you cite a
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: study in your book that says that only half of
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: friendships are reciprocal, which I was actually very shocked by that.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: How do you not get your feelings hurt by a
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: friend that's not reciprocal? Or doesn't rank us as high
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: as you rank them?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know how you not get your feelings hurt
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: because you will get your feelings hurt. And I will say,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: you know, it's a relatively small study, but I will
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: say it matches stories women have shared with me. I'm
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: seeing it reflected in real life. And I mean, just
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: when we think about it, it can be hurtful when
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: we discover this, but your friend's lives have been constructed
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: in such a way over the course of their lifetimes
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: that perhaps you're like their number four girl. And I'm
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: saying these numbers very arbitrarily, but perhaps you don't rank
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: as high in her life as you rank her in
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: your life. Because of how her life's been designed, you
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: have to ask yourself, is it worth me letting it go?
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Because I discovered she doesn't hold me as close as
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I hold her. Now, we're not saying the respect should
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: feel respect. I feel safe with you. But if I
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: realize my girl kind of has another bestie and it
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: looks like they might be closer than she is with me,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: I could see that being kind of hurtful, but you
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: have to step back and ask yourself, hold on. If
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I call her, does she show up? Does she have
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: my back? Do we laugh when we're together? If I
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: need something, she's there. Does she teach me new things?
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: If all of that's in place, I don't know. I've
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: just found more joy in my friendships being able to
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: do that. If I sense that a friend's kind of
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: close with somebody else and it's like, oh, if when
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: we're together, we're together, then we can all partner and
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: have a good time. Can I find a way to
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: not get distracted by the closeness Olympics and instead be
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: able to enjoy what we do have?
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Tell me if you find this too in your friendships.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: I find a lot of things change seasonally. So if
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: I'm in the same sort of time of life as
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: my friend, for instance, I don't have kids yet. My
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: friends that have kids, I see them getting a little
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: closer because they're bonding over different things. And my friends
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: that are single, we're bonding. And it kind of ebbs
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: and flows. And you don't want to just throw away
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: those friendships because you're in a different season.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: I believe women's lives change more rapidly and drastically than
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: men's lives through the life cycle for a lot of
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: different reasons. But because of that, I think that there
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: are those transitional periods that make us kind of think like, wait,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I can't relate to you anymore. What's happening? Everything feels
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: so different and new. And, you know, in those times
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: we have to ask ourselves, like, like give ourselves a
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: little bit of grace because we've never had practice being
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: friends this way. You know, so I think a lot
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: of us go to like, oh my God, it's happening. Like,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I can't relate to her. She's not showing up for me. well,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: she's never had a friend with a baby before. So
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: she doesn't really know like, what do I do here?
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: What do I even ask about? Maybe she doesn't want
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: to dedicate the brain cells to asking about differences between
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: diaper cream. You know what I'm saying? So I have
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: to be like, okay, she's not going to be as
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: invested in this conversation as I am because it's not
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: her world, but she'd still demonstrates interest, but she can't relate.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: And what I found is that If you guys can
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: find a way to figure out, okay, how do we
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: want to be friends in this new stage? I mean,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: in talking about it, the way you would in a
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: romantic relationship. Again, if you sense something changing with your
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: man and be like, okay, babe, what's happening with us?
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I don't feel connected. What's going on? With the friend,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: we're like, oh, I guess this is it. Or we're
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: like trying to read subtext in her text. Like, okay, well,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: she's been acting. We're trying to decode. Same thing. Hey,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: I feel like since I've had a baby, like you
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: and I feel off. I miss you. I miss you.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: And I know things are weird, but like, I'm trying
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: to figure out how we can still like stay strong,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: you know? Like why can't we normalize doing that with
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: the friends to help her feel called in, to help
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: her feel you're top of mind for me. I'm acknowledging
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: the change. So it's not like a secret we keep
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: dancing around. It feels weird, right? What are we going
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: to do to stay connected? And the last thing I'll
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: say is something I found to take the pressure off
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: of my friends being able to keep up with my
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: changing lifestyle is having community to supplement those relationships. So
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: if I'm a new mom and I find myself growing
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: increasingly frustrated, but my friends don't get it, Maybe I
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: need to be in a mommy group where I can
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: geek out on mommy stuff and I feel seen. I
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: feel affirmed in that very specific way. And now I
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: find myself releasing friends from the expectation to have this
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: knowledge and investment. So as long as they're demonstrating care
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: and affirming that identity, like I recognize your mom, then
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: can I find a way to just– Manage expectations.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: That is so proactive and awesome. I love that idea.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Like go search for what you're looking for instead of
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: putting all of the expectations on one person.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: That's fabulous. Because we don't do that in romantic relationships either, right?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Like if you're dating someone who doesn't like golf, you're
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: not like going to necessarily make them golf.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Okay. You say we are only trying to answer the
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: same two questions when it comes to friendships. What are they?
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: So we're trying to ask, you know, Can I love
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: fully here? And who is going to love me fully?
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Like I want to love and I want to be loved. And,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: you know, we get into the details, which are important
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: because we need to know the day-to-day business of friendship.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: But essentially you're only asking those two questions ever. If
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: it's a question about like texting and she doesn't text
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: me as much as I, or she didn't show up
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: for my thing. And does she, you're really asking about,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: does she love me as much as I love her?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: you know, does she love me? Am I over-invested in this?
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, really it's always stripped down to trying to
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: answer those two questions. And I feel like keeping that
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: in mind will help us when there is conflict because
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: we get caught in those details. Essentially you need to,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: you're trying to be reassured. She cares as much as
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: I do. And I am safe to love freely here.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: It's always that. And I feel like it's just something
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: to cling to when you find yourself losing sight of like, okay, well,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: she was late two times, but, you know, or she
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: didn't respond to my story, but she is like active
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: on social, but she didn't respond. When we get into that,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: it's really because you're starting to be suspicious that she
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: doesn't love you as much as you love her or
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: that your love's being taken for granted. It's the same
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: two things. And so I would just advise any woman
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: who's feeling caught up in the ups and downs of
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: this week's scenario, if you got honest with yourself, is
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: it really about those two things? And then what can
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: you do to go and get some security? for those
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: two questions.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I love how no matter what I come at you with,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: you have a zoomed out perspective of what this relationship is.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: And it really gives people so much grace.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so glad. And you know what? Honestly, I
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: think it's because keeping it real, I've been on both sides.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: And I think the feedback that I hear from people
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: that I really appreciate the most is when people say, gosh,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: you're never really vilifying one person or the other. And
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be the girl who's like, I mean,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: I see both sides. I see both sides. But essentially
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: like yes i've been the friend who's disappointed people i've
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: been the friend who's been disappointed it's just too easy
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: to vilify the girl who didn't show up to the
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: thing or who doesn't text back or who canceled plans
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: with you to go with her man like that's annoying
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: but it's too easy to be like fake friend yeah
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: she's a fake friend she's she's a person who's going
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: to make choices that disappoint you. And you're going to
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: have to figure out, okay, is this happening so frequently
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: that I don't feel safe here? But as far as the,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: she's fake. So I'm done with her. It's just, it's just,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: it's just too easy and it's reductive.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: When I was growing up, I had really high expectations
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: of friends because I was always like 10 going on 35.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm 33 and I'm finally at the
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: level with all my friends. We all have the same
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: expectations now. But when I was younger, I wanted them
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: to be loyal. And I had very high expectations. And
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: my dad would always be like, Danielle, different friends for
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: different reasons. And I could never get it because I
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: wanted somebody to be all the things. I've grown up
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: to realize different friends for different reasons is a really
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: great mantra. When do you know when it is time
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: to release a friend? How do you know if it's,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I have a hard time, I think all women do,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: throwing away friendships, especially if there's history there. When do
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: you know it is time to let go?
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Sometimes there are the egregious obvious ones that we know of.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: If a person's constantly lying, you know, things like that.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: So it goes back to that trust and safety that
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: we talked about. If a friend is talking about you,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: like I'm nice with you, but then I'm saying things
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: to tear you down. So we know some of the
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: obvious ones, right? She does something so explicitly hurtful. You're like,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: we can't keep doing this. I think the ones that
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: feel a little more tender and gray are, okay, I
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: do love her, but I also feel like I don't
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: have the energy to put into it anymore. And I
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: think the main driving force of this friendship is the history.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: You know, so it becomes like an obligatory friendship. Like, oh,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: she's been here 20 years. I mean, it'd be messed up.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Even though I find myself not relating to her, not
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: caring to call to get the life updates anymore. I
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: just am kind of like, meh. I think those are
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: harder to figure out. And honestly, I think the first
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: sign that like maybe it should end is if you're
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: constantly wondering if you should end it. Yeah. Might be
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: one sign, you know? And then also making sure it's
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: not a matter of, you know, she held you accountable
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: for something or you're just, you guys are facing conflict.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: So being able to differentiate, is this whole thing coming
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: to a close? Or am I uncomfortable with this weird
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: season we're in of having some tension over this thing?
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: You have to be able to tell the difference. But
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: I know that it's really hard when women do arrive
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: to the conclusion of like, I think this is done
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: and knowing how to articulate that because it feels risky.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I was debating whether I was going to ask you
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: this or not on camera, but I'm going to go
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: for it. I had a friend that I've been friends
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: with since I was like 10 years old. Mm-hmm. who
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: did an egregious thing. My boyfriend, like in 2017, broke
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: up with me and we were still living together. And
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: one night he didn't come home. And I was beside myself.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I was going through, I was like Carrie in Sex
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: and the City, like going through burgers, whole apartment. I
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: was looking at everything. Couldn't find anything. He wouldn't answer
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: my calls. And this friend is always up early. And
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: I said, you know what? I'm just going to drive
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: to her house. It's like six blocks away. Because it's
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: early and I need to like climb in bed with
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: her and just like, I can't be alone. I'm freaking out.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: You're on the edge of my seat right now. So
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I drive to her apartment and she has two windows
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: beside her door. And I knock on the door, no answer.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: So I look through the window and they're on the couch.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: They're not touching, but they're on the couch together. And
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: neither of them had been answering my calls.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: So.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: I was heartbroken for a lot of reasons, right?
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: I was actually more heartbroken by her than him because, right?
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: I had no, at that point, I didn't have as
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: many expectations from him or with him. She and I
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: are still friends. I love her deeply. I do not
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: trust her the same way. And all of my other
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: friends cannot believe that we are still friends. It was
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: not a relationship I was willing to let go of.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: I still hold on to it a little bit. In
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: your expert opinion, what do you think?
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Wow. Okay. I'll say this.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: You hear the ambulance?
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like it was on cue.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: A friendship emergency.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: So I get a lot of messages that are like
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: essay style. Should I end it or not? And I
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: know this might not be satisfying, but I always say like, girl,
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I'm not here to
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: qualify your friendships. I see my role as offering things
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: for you to consider as you make that decision. But
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: to be like, yeah, based on everything you said, ends that.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? But if you have determined, hey,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: that was a weird moment. We talked about it. Something
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure. But when I look at what value
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: this offers me and the discomfort or whatever damage that
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: was done and I weigh them out, it for me
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: offers more value than it does pain or disappointment. That
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: is for you to decide. And if there was discomfort
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: and it was disruptive and you all are finding or
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: have found ways to kind of repair or mend, that's
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: your business. You know, even if your friends who love
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: you are like, let that go. If you have determined
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: it offers more value than then pain or disappointment or discomfort,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: then that is for you to decide. And if you
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: both are showing up intentionally pouring into it to grow,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: to repair whatever ruptures emerged, that is for you to decide.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt like it was not of her character.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: So I was okay. But it's, I appreciate that perspective.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: I really like that.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, and I hear that because, you know,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: I've been through something and I shared a story in
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: the book that I like deleted and put back in
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: and deleted and put back in. Cause I was like, okay,
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: I like to look like I have it together where
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: I made choices.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: I don't want to give it up. Yeah.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: That friends were like, that's not cool. And was embarrassed,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: was like mortified. And so I, that's why I say
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: I can see both sides. But what I love is
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: what you just said of like, it was so not her.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: that I was like, okay, when I look at things
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: whole picture, it's something I still want to fight for.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: And so I respect that.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Fighting for friendships. Yeah, there you go. What are behaviors
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: to adopt to become a better friend? I saw in
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: one of your TikToks, you say we should work on
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: expressing platonic desire more.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: What does that mean, platonic desire? What does that look like?
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: So we all want to feel desired, even platonically. I
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: want to know that my friends are somewhere like man,
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I miss Danielle. Like it feels good, right? But I
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: think we, I often say like even the word romance,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: if you look up the definition, it says something about like,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: you know, to delight and like curiosity. So to some extent,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: how can you have a little romance in your friendships?
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking of you. You look so pretty in this picture.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: I'm taking you out tomorrow. Like, you know, in a
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: safe and appropriate way, but how can I give myself
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: permission to actively express how much I want you in
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: my life, how much I appreciate you, Instead of doing
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: things like, oh my God, like you should know. We've
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: been friends for so long.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Yes. It is so fun to spoil your girlfriends and
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: to feel spoiled by your girlfriends. I agree. There's something
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: about that. That's very cool.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Do you have any advice for ambitious people? I feel
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: like my ambitious friends all talk about this issue. They...
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: care so deeply about their friendships because they are ambitious
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: about friendship. And they are also overwhelmed by what is
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: required to be a great friend and build whatever it
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: is they're doing.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: So I hear you saying for women who are like
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: either managers or entrepreneurs, like high achieving women and friendship,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: how do they kind of like balance that? Yeah.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it could be also for people
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: who are moms, right? Like that's a really exhausting role.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: How do you balance?
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: You know, like when you are an overworked, underpaid person,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: which so many of us are, how do you balance
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: friendship and everything you have going on? Yeah.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Okay. That's such a great question because I know so
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: many of us feel that way. Like I want to
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: be a good friend, but I don't know if I
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: have it in me. First thing I'll say is burnout
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: is real where we feel so overwhelmed and with the
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: volume of demand in our lives that we feel like
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: we don't have it to give. So I wanna start
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: there because I know women have that heart. I wanna
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: show up, but I don't think I even can. And
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: I wanna validate that. I will also say, I think
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: it's helpful to reframe what you think a good friend is.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Because if for you, it is a lot of gestures
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: and a lot of going out and a lot of,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: then you are gonna say, okay, I don't think I
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: have all that to give. And I like to think
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: that a lot of us Can increase being a good
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: friend by just like one degree by being active on
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: the things you already think about. Because a lot of us,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: we do think about our friends often or we see
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: something that comes to mind. I think being active on
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: the things you already do would be a big step.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: like a huge step and require less lift. So for example,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: if I'm in target and I see something and it
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: reminds me of her, like to snap a picture and
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: send it, I mean like really on the spot, but
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: for the person receiving it, it's such like a, Oh, like.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: You don't even have to buy it for them. Just
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: snap a photo. I love that.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, really that's it. Because again, it goes to
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: those questions of like, do you care about me? So
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: to know that today I crossed your mind or to
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: like activate a memory, which nostalgia is really powerful and
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: bonds people. So even to snap a picture of a
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: mug and be like, Oh my God, this reminds me
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: of spring break 2002. I can be like, Oh my God,
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: I know, you know? So, but just that moment, like,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: it's like, It's a reminder of like me and you
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: alone in this vault, right? Like our private little bubble.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: And so those things activate it. And then if you
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: do feel like you're coming into a season where you're
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: overwhelmed to even front load it, like I care enough
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: to tell you I'm going to be out of commission
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: for a while. So to even say like, I'm starting
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: to feel really overwhelmed with all the mom stuff. And
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: I just want you to know, like, even if I'm
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: not texting you, I'm thinking of you. And if you
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: guys go out and I can't make it, like I
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: want to be there. I just need you to know that.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, that right there is like, okay, you care
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: about me. And so, I mean, even if you don't
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: have it to give, I think telling friends, I want
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: to be there for you. It's important to me to
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: show up for you. Those conversations help people to feel safe, seen,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: and supported. It's not all the little like, Venmo her
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: $ 20 for coffee. And sometimes cinder flower. Those are really
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: cute gestures, but also it's the simple things. It's asking
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: about an update she shared with you last week. That
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: is a big one. I hear that often for women
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: is like, I don't know. I feel like she doesn't care.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Like she didn't even ask me about it. I told
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: her about it. She hasn't even asked since. I mean,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: literally being like unprompted. Hey, you mentioned that thing with
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: your dad last week, everything good. Just that you, it
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: shows me you were attentive. You care enough to ask
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: you're invested in my life. So rethink what being a
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: good friend means and how much activity hours and money
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: is associated with the image that comes to your mind.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: And can you do a little rethinking of what it
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: looks like to show up?
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I love or that at
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: least resonates with me, what I'm hearing you say is
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: to say the things that are unsaid. Yeah. that is
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: really powerful.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But we've got to have the permission because we
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: do in every other place and it feels weird or
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: women are like, okay, does that look thirsty? Or it
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: feels vulnerable because if you don't know if she feels
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: the same way, does it feel very vulnerable to like
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: lean into looking in her eyes and being like, ah,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: but I mean, I just, I know I appreciate it
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: when friends are like, hey, thank you so much for yesterday.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: It's just like, I feel so connected to them.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: That is so beautiful. Okay, meeting new friends after school,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: whether it's high school, college. This is a question that
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: I get most often.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I'm always like, join a group. Join a volleyball team.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: I hate volleyball. I don't know. But like, you have
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: great advice on this. What should people do when they
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: are adults and trying to make friends?
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: That is definitely the number one question I get. And
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: I get it. But I'll say it typically comes with
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: some kind of qualifier. So people want to know, how
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: do I make friends after college, in a new city,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: as a new mom, as a divorcee? And I hope
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: that it shows us that we will always be having
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: to make new friends. So we better figure it out.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: And I like to lean into that because a lot
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: of women feel shame that they're even in that position. Oh,
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: I should already have my friend group. I'm 35. I'm...
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: Stop it. And the research tells us that we replace
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: about half of our friends every seven years, which says
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: to me that we should expect some level of pruning,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: like a natural process of people coming out and then
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: the churn bringing new people in. So we better figure
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: out how to make them because it's going to keep happening.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: When your husband dies and your kids get out the house,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're going to have to start over. So
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: there are three things I can give.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: When your husband dies and you're like, oh my God,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: I need new friends. But obviously we'll outlive them. That's
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: what it's saying. Because obviously he won't be here long.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: So you're going to need to know.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: But yeah.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Okay. So I can give you three things, right?
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: So the first I would say is to get comfortable
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: leveraging technology. And I feel like Gen Z is like
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: very open to this. And the rest of us are like,
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It doesn't make you desperate. It makes
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: you very resourceful. And so apps like Bumble for Friends,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: I know is very popular. And if you have unconventional
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: work hours, If you are in a new city and
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: you're looking for like, where's the diversity at or whatever
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: it is, I can go into this place, show what
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: I'm looking for in this particular, you know, vicinity and
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: find my people. So it kind of expedites the process
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: of finding your people. The one thing I'll say with
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: that is you need to get into real life as
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: soon as possible. So this whole we're DMing for three months,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: we're not doing that. Okay. It looks like we click.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: She has good rapport. Let's meet in real life. The
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: second thing I would say is to become a regular somewhere.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: So a lot of us like romanticize how things used
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: to be when we were in school and it was
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: so much easier. It's because we were clocking hours together
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: because I saw your face all the time. You're the option.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: So let's sit together at lunch, you know, and it
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: also lends itself to something known as the mirror exposure effect.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: And the idea is that we tend to prefer people
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: just because we're familiar. So if I see a familiar
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: face and a totally new face, I'm going to lean
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: to the one I've kind of seen before. So how
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: can you make that work in your favor? Can I
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: work from the same coffee shop every Friday at nine?
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Can I walk my dog in the same area every day,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: you know, being mindful of safety and things, but those
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: things make you a regular and it feels less intimidating
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: to be like, Hey, what's up? Cause I see your
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: face all the time.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: And the last thing I'll say is leverage the support
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: of super connectors. So you probably are one. I know
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: I'm one like where those girls were like, Oh my God,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: you should meet my friend. So-and-so that person, even if
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: you two aren't close, we probably know that.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: Girl, right?
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: That girl. And so it's just like, how can you
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: ask her, you know, send a message that says something like,
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: I'm looking to get more plugged in. And I thought
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: of you because you're always out and about and doing
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: something interesting. So I thought I would ask, do you
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: know of any events around town that you think are
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: worth checking out or any groups that you like get
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: involved in? And the The average person is happy to help.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Like that's flattering. You thought I could help you. And
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: best case scenario, you even get an invitation to be
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: a plus one. So they might say, oh yeah, oh
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: my God, I'm in a book club. You should come.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: But you can't expect to get the need met if
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: you will not make the need known.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: It's really, really well said. So good.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: Last question. You outline a specific type of friend that
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: people are going to encounter. I want a rundown of
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: these archetypes. The first is the flaky friend. Hmm. Who's she?
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: She sounds annoying.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I know because I've been her. No, the girl
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: who you, you can't really rely on her. So if
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: she says, I'll be there at 10 or if she says, okay,
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: I'll send you that link or okay. And there's a
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: party that's like, she's probably not going to. And some
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: people see it's quirky and they're like, I'm not bothered
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: by it. But others are very bothered by it because
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: it feels like she doesn't care. It feels disrespectful of
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: her time. You have your time. And so it's something
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: you have to negotiate because sometimes again, we'll be like, oh, well,
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: she bailed on lunch. So I don't know. I'm just
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: done with her. Have I ever said, girl, I love
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: spending time with you. And when you cancel, like it
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: messes up the rest of my day. Like I carved
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: out time to make this happen. You know, you can negotiate.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: But if she hears that and is still like, well,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Like that's just who I am, who I am.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Then you would have to figure out if that's something
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: you can work with.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: The clingy friend. Yes. Who's she?
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: The clingy friend. We all know that friend. You know,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: she wants more than you can give it feels. It
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: feels like the scales are imbalanced. You might experience this
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: as a lot of text messages, a lot of bids
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: for attention, more than you, like faster than you can
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: keep up with. She may express, you know, jealousy over
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: seeing you hang out with other girls instead of her.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Things like that. They make you feel a little suffocated
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: and overwhelmed. You know, I know people are very familiar
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: with attachment styles. it's either that you're experiencing her as
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: clingy because she is very anxious and eager or because
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: you're avoidant. So it feels clingy to you because you
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: only want to talk like once every three months. And
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: she's like, can I talk to you like once a week?
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: You know, so again, negotiating is the key. So how
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: can I tell her, you know, not that she's too
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: much because we want to be careful about causing other
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: women complexes and damaging them in the process. So I'm
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: going to be careful over you. I'm not going to
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: tell you you're too much, but I might say, hey,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: I prefer to catch up on weekends. So I'm probably
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: not going to be good with like the daily text messages.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: What day works for you? Like a Saturday or Sunday.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: So you want to communicate your own limitations.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Correct. Instead of like, you just do too much or like,
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: it's like a little too much for me. You know,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: it gives people like, so to say like, hey, I'm
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: a little more low key with check-ins. They're not as
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: frequent for me. That's like, kind of like my sweet spot.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: So do you just want to meet up, you know,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: every other weekends, you know, or if she sees you
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: with other friends and it's like, oh, I thought you
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: were busy, but you're here. Yeah, no, when I say
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: I'm busy, I mean like, you know, it's important to
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: me that I see all my friends and I'm trying
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: to rotate everybody in and spend family time. And so
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: that probably won't let us do like back-to-back weekends, but
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: I definitely want to see that movie with you that
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: we're talking about. Oh my God. Can we please go
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: next month? Because I can't wait to see it with you.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a term that someone taught me called
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: light and bright.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Ooh.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: And I try and harness that and you do it
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: so much. Cause you're, what you're saying is like, say
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: it all with a positive spin.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: Like just say that movie. I really want to see
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: that with you.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: You know, light and bright.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Okay. The last one is the negative friend. Yes. Who's she?
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: Some of us know her very well.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: And it can come in different forms. Negative in terms
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: of Okay, everything sucks in my life all the time.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: It can be negative in terms of being really critical
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: of your choices. She always has something to say and
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: you didn't ask. And she's telling you like how it
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: doesn't measure up. So that negativity we can experience in
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of different ways. This is so tricky because
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons we value our friendship so much
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: is because we do have a space to be like,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: oh my God, the world, the patriarchy. And you have
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: somebody who's like, oh my God, I know. And one
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: of the benefits of friendship is I have somebody to
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: take my troubles to. The thing though, is that if
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: we expect that your friend should be your therapist, I
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: know some people say she is my therapist. I get it.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: But they're not though. And I can help you through
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: some things, but you cannot expect me to have the
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: skills and availability of a therapist. It's not fair to me.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: I'm your friend, not your counselor. And so we have
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: to manage that. And then finally, I'll say, you know,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: the Gottmans who are like relationship OGs, you know, they
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: often say that successful relationships have a positivity to negativity
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: ratio of five to one. So for every negative interaction,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: you need like five positives to override it just because
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: of how much we weigh in. negative interactions. So if
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: you took a, if you got in a helicopter and
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: looked out, you know, over your friendship landscape, how many
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: of the last 10 interactions were negative? That's all I'm saying.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that with a friend. I
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: was like, I'm always drained when I leave this phone call.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: And I was like, at first I thought, well, I
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: think I'm providing more value than I'm getting in this relationship.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: I don't really like looking at friendships that way. And
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: I think what I really felt was the five to one.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: So I like that.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like we're here because it is a totally elective
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: relationship at the end of the day. You're not a
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: person I signed a government contract to marry. You're not
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: my child. Like I'm choosing to be here. So yes,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: use me when you need me, you know, for something
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: hard and to go through hardship with you. But it's
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: got to have some degree of fun and pleasure and lightness.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: That's why we're friends. You know, it brings joy and
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: pleasure to my life as well. And so it's just easy.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: It's really easy to kind of co-ruminate and to talk
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: about our boss sucks. Like if we're work besties. Yeah.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: But at some point somebody needs to say, okay, let's
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: give ourselves 10 minutes and then like, let's go get
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: ice cream because I'm so over talking about it. You know,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: it's not dismissive. It's sometimes light and bright.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: That's right. Okay, rapid fire, Danielle. What is your favorite
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: activity to do solo?
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: Read. Love that. You were meant to.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: Be on this podcast. Your favorite activity to do with friends?
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, sit on the back patio and run our mouths.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: We don't have to go anywhere. We don't have to
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: like give a big tip to servers. We can just
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: like sit, run our mouths in a low key space.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: And that's just like, that's my favorite thing.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: Me too. I want to be on someone's couch.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: Yes. Love that.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: You're in Florida, so you could be on a backpack. Okay.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: A routine habit that keeps you sane.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: I like to journal in the mornings. I know that's
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: not like revolutionary, but it does work for me. It
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: works to wake up, to pray, to spend some alone time,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: and to just kind of get those first thoughts out
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: has been really helpful.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Your book dedication. I'm obsessed with book dedications. I feel
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: like this is your first book. There's a lot of like,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: who and what do I dedicate this to? How did
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: you come up with yours?
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so mine was, you know, to all the girls
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: I've loved before, because the book is about fighting for
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: it when you have something good. And I know... that
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: there are friendships that I ended prematurely because I didn't
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: know better or because I was stubborn or unequipped to
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: like have hard conversations. And so sometimes, you know, I,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: you know, have thought about them in terms of like
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: the one that got away friendship wise. And so this
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: book is everything that I've learned and just kind of
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: like my dedication to the girls that could have maybe
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: still been in my life if I knew better.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Why'd you get emotional when you said that? Did you
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: think about someone in particular?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I just, you know, I think I have to
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: do the work in my brain to say, you know what?
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: I learned lessons from it and I can grow and
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: apply that moving forward. And I do think I have
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: current friends who would say, Danielle's a good friend, but
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: it's because I've been a bad one. So of course
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: I'm learning. And now I'm like, okay, I got this.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: But it's because I've been stubborn or I've been a
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: chameleon or I've been too sassy, too hard, too cold.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: I've been all those things. And so sometimes I feel
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: like it's kind of like the ghost of Christmas past
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: when you're like, or ghost of Christmas future. So I
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm telling women like, trust me, if you
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: continue to be hard or cold or you don't get
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: your self-esteem together and so you tolerate mistreatment, all those
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: things are going to cost you healthy, satisfying friendships. And
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: so at the heart of all of this is like
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: doing your own self-work so that you can be in
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: good relationships. And I'm glad that I'm figuring it out.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: But it has cost me some along the way.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: As somebody who had a hard time with vulnerability in
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: the past, thank you for sharing that and for being
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: so vulnerable. I thought your whole book was very vulnerable.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: Not just your own stories, but how you wrote it.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Because I feel emotional now. Every girl... that reads this
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: book will take a look in the mirror and think
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: about all the girls that they've loved before. And all
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: the girls they will still love in the future. And
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: friendships are really tricky and beautiful and all of the things.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: And I just think you're going to help a lot
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: of people with this book.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, I appreciate you so much. That is my prayer
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: always is that for the woman who's holding it, I
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: can't say that this will be the book that solves
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: all your problems, but I really do hope that it
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: helps you confront some things and it helps you to
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: more freely love other women and that it brings healing
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: to women who need, you know, some encouragement. So that's,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: that's the prayer always.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: Okay. My last three questions that I ask everybody, a
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: book you read that changed your life, something you think
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: everybody should read.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Ooh, there is a book called the relationship principles of Jesus.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: And it's just nice to see these people, portraits of, okay,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: how did he talk to people? How did he forgive?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: How did he share truth? And it is definitely life-changing.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: I'll also say the book Platonic by Dr. Marissa Franco
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: is like crazy awesome. And I think everybody should read it.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give you these 52 questions if you
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: can pick one randomly.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: Okay. I knew this was coming. This one says, what
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: do you want to be known for?
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like that one for you.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Theory on brand. I would say I want to be
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: known for helping people see friendship differently. I think that's
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: my most flattering compliment is when people say like, wow,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: I never thought about it that way. That makes me
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: feel really good. So I hope to bring that experience
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: to women through the book.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Danielle, what's the smartest decision you've ever made?
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think for me personally, I think having children,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: which was very, a very conscious choice. Do we want
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: to do this? And it's brought a lot of joy
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: to my life. And I'm so glad we made that decision.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: When did you do it for the first time?
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: I think I was like 31 at the time. So
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: my children are now five and two and it's just
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: really cool. And I'm, you know, I'm learning a lot
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: of things. through them, that they are their own people
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: and they have their own personalities and interests. And I'm
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: just learning a lot by watching them every day. So
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: I'm really glad that we linked to the parenthood because
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: it's taught me a lot and shaped me as a woman.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: I have to give you a hug. This was my
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: favorite conversation in so long.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: Really? Yes. Oh my gosh.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Thank you so much.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: You know what time it is. Today's a good day
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: to have a good day. I'll see you next week.