Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / Lessons learned through tough decisions with Haven’s Kitchen Founder, Alison Cayne

Transcript

Lessons learned through tough decisions with Haven’s Kitchen Founder, Alison Cayne · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

• 0:00
  This is Alison Cain for Female Startup Club. Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. I'm your host, Doona Roisin, and joining me on the show today is Ali Cain, founder of New York-based biz Haven's Kitchen.
• 0:26
  Originally a cooking school that started out in 2012, Haven's Kitchen is now helping cooks of all kinds in the kitchen with their ridiculously yummy looking, vibrant, squeezy sauces.
• 0:38
  I highly recommend jumping on the website to get a taste for what these delicious pouches look like. And as soon as you see them, I can guarantee you'll want them in your life stat. I am keeping faith that they'll make their way to a Whole Foods in London someday soon. In this episode, we're covering Ali's eight-year journey and so many lessons she's learned along the way, including the major moments she realized she would have to close down the best performing side of the business earlier this year due to the pandemic.
• 1:06
  And if you hear something in this episode that makes you sparkle, please do think about sharing it with a friend who might benefit from a listen to. This is Ali for Female Startup Club. Alison, thank you so much for joining me on the Female Startup Club podcast today. Thank you so much for having me. Very excited to talk about all this stuff.
• 1:27
  Me too. I'm so excited. We love to get started by you introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about who you are and what you're about and what your business is. Sure. Well, I try. I'm not very good at the elevator pitch because I have kind of this like long-winded introduction, but take it.
• 1:48
  My name is Allison Kane. I have a company called Haven's Kitchen. We are a CPG brand. Our first product line is a line of fresh squeezy sauces and pouches. They're cooking sauces, simmering sauces, marinades. They kind of evolved out of my first business, which was a cooking school in Manhattan, New York.
• 2:12
  in Chelsea, which I just closed because of the pandemic, but that I opened in 2012. So we like to think of ourselves as, you know, your best friend in the kitchen. And we kind of do that through classes, our cookbook, and now this, you know, product line. I love that. The best friend in the kitchen. That's so nice.
• 2:36
  I want to set the scene and go way back to when you were just getting started, you know, pre 2012. What was happening in your life that kind of led to the light bulb moment of you wanting to get into this space of cooking, of bringing people together, of community? I want to hear all about it.
• 2:54
  Well, I got married at 23 and had five children in eight years. So I had my own community at home and I was cooking a lot. And I was always really into cooking and always really into food, always hosting people. I started teaching cooking in college just to friends and friends of friends because people didn't know how to make food.
• 3:19
  soup, you know, or roasted chicken. And it was always for me just, you know, this really comfortable, happy place where I felt creative and I felt empowered. And I felt like I had, I don't know, freedom. And a lot of people had this sort of like opposite feeling about the kitchen.
• 3:38
  When my youngest son was going into nursery school, I decided to go back to get a master's degree in a program at NYU that's focused on food sustainability, food justice, food policy, and sort of food systems, and the history of trade routes, and religion and food, and gender and food, and race and ethnicity and food. Really fascinating program. Yeah.
• 4:01
  But as a part of that, I had a requirement to get an internship, which was sort of funny because I had five kids under...
• 4:11
  10, I think at that time. And I just was kind of like, is this a joke? Like, who's going to hire me? A, I haven't had like a real job, right, since I was 24. But anyway, I ended up getting the job as the head of the education station at the Union Square Green Market.
• 4:32
  So my job was basically giving school tours to everyone from three-year-olds to 18-year-olds all about farm labor practices, environmental sustainability, animal welfare, how their food choices really do impact not only their personal health and their community's health, but really the larger good.
• 4:53
  And what started happening was the people that I was teaching cooking started wanting to go on market tours. And the people that I was giving market tours to, the grownups who were with those kids on the tours, started asking me for recipes. Because they understood that they needed to start buying locally and understood that shopping at the market was good for the local economy and for the environment. But they didn't know what to do with a yam.
• 5:22
  I thought, hmm, there's something here. And, you know, like in many places around the world, there are super cooking schools that aren't culinary professional schools. They're just, you know, you visit, you go to the market, you learn how to make the regional cuisine, you have a fun day of it, you drink a bottle of wine.
• 5:41
  And that really didn't exist in New York. So I opened Haven's Kitchen in 2012. And it was just this idea to connect people with the joy of eating well and cooking and taking kind of the fear and loathing out of it.
• 5:59
  What ended up happening was because it was this beautiful old carriage house, it made a lot of sense to have a cafe in front and two stories of private event space. So the business ended up being profitable almost accidentally, like year two, because we started doing 300 private events a year. So everything from weddings to three-day corporate retreats to brand launches, book parties,
• 6:29
  And we built this incredibly, really strong community in the cafe because it was just this marvelous place that really felt like nothing New York had to offer. And of course, the heart of the business were the cooking classes that we were doing six nights a week. And it just it was just this like ecosystem ecosystem.
• 6:50
  of food and learning and community. And I mean, people met in our classes and then ended up getting married there. People started their political campaigns in the cafe. We launched a number of CPG brands when they were first getting started. It was a really, really fun, dynamic place to be. And then...
• 7:14
  In 2018, we launched the line of sauces really as a response to our students just saying like, we don't need meal kits. We just need a good, fresh, healthy sauce. And everything in the supermarket is in jars, in bottles, in the middle of the store, lots of preservatives, lots of salt, added sugar. And we just want the things that we're learning how to make in class. Why doesn't that exist? So we made it exist.
• 7:43
  Wow, that is so amazing. It just sounds such a special time in your life as well when you go from zero to 100 really, really quickly without kind of that even foresight necessarily to think it would be that. And I was reading something about that time in your life when you actually were looking for a different kind of space and then you stumbled across the carriage house. Can you share a little bit about that?
• 8:07
  Yeah, no, I mean, my original plan was just like a little walk up, maybe a thousand square feet, build a kitchen. You know, I didn't have, I certainly didn't have retail dreams and I didn't think I was going to be, you know, a wedding venue. But then, you know, I fell in love. It was this old carriage house. It was built in, you know, early 1800s on 17th Street. The block wasn't very...
• 8:37
  nice at that point. And it just needed love, but it was, it was like singing to me. And I walked in and I knew exactly where the kitchen would go. And I was like, of course we have coffee and scones and retail goods. And, um, then upstairs it was like, there was a living room space with me, perfect sense for a bar. And, um, it just, it just was all there. And fortunately for me,
• 9:06
  way to go because I don't know that the cooking classes in and of themselves would have been a successful business the way that this turned out to be. Totally. Yeah. And when you were in that phase, were you self-funding the business or did you have to go out and raise money to be able to get into that business?
• 9:25
  Carriage house. Yeah, no, I mean, and I think, you know, for your audience, and this is something that I don't think people talk about openly enough. I was very privileged to have the money to self fund. I did the renovations on that building. I basically took care of any difference between what we made and, you know, what we spent in year one. And I was fortunate that we were able to make a profit in year two. But that's because my family wasn't depending on this income. Yeah.
• 9:53
  I had a nest egg that I could spend, you know, if you're at least in America, you know, no bank would have funded that. Small business loans do not cover that kind of business and even other sort of more scalable businesses. They really, they need personal guarantees and a lot of covenants and they're not your go-to. And candidly, I don't think investors would have been like, this is a great idea, you know? Right. So I think, you know, talking about the money,
• 10:22
  is really important because I could not have done it had I not been willing to spend, you know, I mean, a million dollars all in myself. And that's a lot of money. Yeah, it's a lot of money. And I guess for you as well, you're really going on your intuition. You had this vision, you were super clear on it. But of course, you know, it's a risk. It's a really big risk to jump in and do that.
• 10:49
  Yeah. And I think, you know, asking friends and family to participate in your risk, that has its challenges also. So...
• 10:58
  You know, unfortunately, I think there's a lot of sort of entrepreneurship worship out there in the world. And I think everyone's like, you go, you go live your dream, but keep your day job until your dream has a little bit of traction. And then once it does, then you're in a position to raise money for it and to bring in other people. Yeah.
• 11:21
  Most people I know that have had successful businesses that didn't have the resources to fund them themselves really did stay in their day jobs until the last possible minute that they could.
• 11:36
  And I guess that's, you know, really taking a calculated risk because you're, you're tipping the scales. You're still having your regular income coming in. You've got that safety net, but then you're really hustling to see whether there's something there and see whether there's interest from outsiders, because of course it's one thing for you to be like, I would love this. And that's great. It's got to start with you. But you know, if the wider community don't want it and it's not the right fit at that time, then of course it's pretty scary. Yeah.
• 12:03
  Yeah. And I mean, there are a lot of great ideas that don't translate to great businesses. You know, I mean, that's just the reality.
• 12:11
  And there are a lot of great ideas that are just ahead of their time and people aren't quite ready, whether it's investors or consumers, they're just not ready. I happened to hit right at the right time where New Yorkers were starting to understand the connection between the food that they were eating and their well-being and the greater good and the environment. You know, things like food policy and food justice were starting to kind of come on people's radars in 2012.
• 12:38
  You know, there was there, we were post 2008. So, you know, we were in a really great time in the economy and hospitality business in general, you know, brick and mortar businesses are very challenging. So all the conditions really need to be right for them to succeed.
• 12:56
  Yeah. And I guess it also sounds like there was really nothing similar in the market in New York for people to come and have this experience and have this community. And just the visual impact of having that big, beautiful space sounds absolutely amazing. Wow. What a time. I'm sorry to hear it shut down though. Like, gosh, it's, I guess, how does it feel? What's the feeling?
• 13:20
  Well, it's been a few months, so I'm not going to tear up when we talk about it. We were having our best year ever. We went into 2020 with more deposits for weddings and corporate events than ever.
• 13:34
  It was fairly obvious in March that we were going to be closed for some time. I think as the months wore on, it became more obvious that this was really going to be a long-term shutdown. And brick and mortar businesses are not operating at margins where we can handle a year of no revenue. It's just, no matter, it just doesn't work. That's why you see sort of like the decimation of a lot of small businesses, especially restaurants.
• 14:04
  Um, it was, we tried, you know, we were like, maybe we'll do meal kits. Maybe we'll do delivery. Maybe, you know, um, but at the end of the day, because the event space really was like the main generator of all of the income and we knew that that wasn't happening for some time. Um.
• 14:24
  It just made the most sense to close the school. Fortunately, I was able to pay everyone well. I was able to get out of my lease with just handing back the keys. It wasn't a ton of, you know, sort of Kafka-esque, nightmarish paperwork. But it was really sad because it was very abrupt and
• 14:47
  You know, it was shocking to all of us. Obviously, you know, me talking about having to let go a team of, you know, over 75 people was hard for me, but obviously harder for the people that were let go. And pretty much, you know, a really heartbreaking time. But
• 15:12
  I think that I'm happy that we did it when we did it. I think it would have just gotten worse.
• 15:18
  I think that, you know, for me personally, having the sauce business as, you know, this, this really growing business that needs my time and attention has been really fascinating. Just kind of realizing how much my brain was really in two places. And now that it's only in one, how much more effective I can be. There's a lot of really good stuff that's come out of it, but for sure, it was really, it was really painful.
• 15:48
  Yeah, gosh, it sounds like a really big decision. And obviously, like you said, it's bittersweet. There's things that are great that come out of it, but you can, I guess you can never understand how to deal with those things until they happen. And it sounds like you learn a lot in this process. I think that that's the thing about the pandemic. I think it's just a pressure test, you know, for you personally, relationships, businesses, ideas. Yeah.
• 16:13
  you know, you hear about friends that are falling in love and you hear about friends that are breaking up and, you know, people are either finding things that are getting them super locked and loaded, or they're having some real crises in their sort of, you know, personal wellbeing. And I think it's, I think of it like a house, you know, when it's, when it's built on a really firm foundation, it kind of moves when, when the winds come, but if it's not, then it's
• 16:43
  It breaks, you know, and that's okay when things break. That's okay because sometimes things are kind of held artificially up. And so the breaking is sort of the first step in the rebuilding, which, which is exciting if you can look at it that way.
• 17:00
  Yeah, that's really interesting. I like that. It's nice. Well, let's move on to talk about the source business. I want to change topics there and figure out, you know, when you were early on in building the source business, kind of what was the vision? What was it that you wanted to create? And how did that kind of get started? Yeah.
• 17:19
  Yeah. So we've always been, you know, the mission from day one has always been, there is a cook inside of you and you can feel creative and empowered. And all of those things that I was talking about, how I felt in the kitchen, you just haven't necessarily learned how you've been taught to think that this is something intuitive, that it's not.
• 17:44
  You've been sort of flooded with images of the most beautiful food and these incredible chefs. And so nothing you make is going to compare and it's just going to make you feel bad about yourself. So our job has always been, you know, the way to get someone to do something more because it's good for you and it's good for your community and good for the environment is not to say you should be cooking more, but to make it really fun and.
• 18:08
  really creative, really empowering. And so how do we make a product that makes someone feel that way? And it starts with the way that it looks and the way that it feels. The idea of squeezing a sauce is very fun. It's kind of like kindergarten experience.
• 18:28
  You feel like you're painting. You feel like I'm going to be creative. It's not about measuring out a teaspoon of this or whatever. It's about just a squeeze here and maybe a little more squeeze there. It's about the colors of the sauce. It's about the freshness and the vibrance of the flavors, which was really important to us. Obviously, we need to have a super clean label so you know that you're putting good things into you. And most of all, it's really about the way that we
• 18:57
  educate consumers on you. All you need is a cauliflower. You can roast that. We're going to help you figure out how, so that it comes out crispy and golden and delicious. And then a squeeze of sauce and you've created a beautiful meal, you know, fast, easy, you save time shopping, chopping, cleaning, but it gives you that feeling of empowerment.
• 19:20
  So that was always the mission. It shifted a little bit because it went from, we think more people should be cooking because it's so good for everything. And now it's like, well, everyone's cooking. So now how do we sort of say like, okay, we've got you. We can help you out of your rut. We can help you with cooking fatigue. You know, we can help make this more fun and exciting than I have to make dinner again. What am I going to make? All of that.
• 19:49
  The grind. Yeah, totally. I really love the pouches and that idea of squeezing it and splodging it out versus a jar. And I also feel like it feels a little bit different in terms of throwing a jar away versus throwing the pouch away. It seems a little bit different. Every time I throw a big jar away, I'm like, oh, I don't have any space, but maybe I should be keeping this.
• 20:11
  I know. Well, the thing is, again, also like at least in the U.S., you know, people think because they put something in the recycling bin that it gets recycled. You know, the truth is under 25 percent of what you put in that bin actually gets recycled. Most of it ends up in landfill. So, you know, that's our municipal systems just being really anachronistic and far behind in sort of sustainability standards. Yeah.
• 20:38
  So even if a pouch ends up in the garbage, the amount of space that it's taking in landfill is significantly less. Not only that, but the production and the shipping, right? It takes 24 trucks.
• 20:52
  to ship the equivalent of one truck of pouches, of jars. So when you think about just how thin and lightweight they are, right? The fuel used, the emissions produced, the water consumption, the food waste, it's so much better for a pouch. But we also have this great partnership with a company called TerraCycle, where free to the consumer, if you just sign up, you get an envelope, you put your pouch in, and we guarantee 100% that it's recycled.
• 21:21
  So, you know, from sort of like upstream all the way downstream, we've definitely chosen the most sustainable packaging. So we feel really good about that. Yeah, that's so cool. I love that. That's really cool. So when you went to launch to market, how were you getting the word out there? How were you finding customers and growing that side of the business? Yeah.
• 21:42
  So we were fortunate because we had such a beautiful, loyal community already. I mean, I don't know how people do it today other than just buying a ton of ads on Instagram. But we didn't buy our first ad until April 2020.
• 22:02
  We basically just told our community that we were launched. We kind of were telling them along the way, we're making this product. What do you think? What flavors do you like? Really bringing our community kind of into the process so that by the time that we were available at Whole Foods or available on Fresh Direct, they were invested. Okay.
• 22:22
  And I think one of the main things that I would sort of say, whether it's you trying to get consumers to try your product, you getting buyers to put you on the shelf, investors...
• 22:35
  You know, the person on the other side has a problem. They might not know it, but they have a need. And if you're building something to fill that need, then our job is to make it less about our product and us and more about this is for you. We've created this for you. We're answering your problem. These are your needs and we're here to fulfill them.
• 23:03
  The last several years have been very sort of like founder and brand centric. And for me, I just feel like it should be very consumer and customer centric. And so that's kind of how we've built it. You know, from the very beginning, we were asking our community what they needed, what sauces were their favorite, what, how do they cook? Why don't they cook? Why do they like to cook? What do they want to make? What do they never make? All those questions. Yeah.
• 23:29
  And we had kind of a focus group every night of the week because we had classes and we were asking our students all the time and they were involved in taste tests and all that stuff. Oh, that's so cool. Then by the time we launched in March of 18, we sold out at Fresh Direct the first day that we were on their site. I mean, literally we did a swipe up to buy and we got a new purchase order the next day and they were shocked. Similar with Whole Foods, we just had crazy velocities very early on.
• 23:58
  And then when we expanded out of the home region, we were nervous because maybe it's just our community. You know, maybe it's just people who know and love Haven's Kitchen Cooking School that are buying the sauces. But by that time, we had generated enough kind of word of mouth and enough sort of
• 24:14
  you know, that sort of sprinkle effect of people telling people, ooh, I love this product and ooh, this is something new. And I think also, you know, there's just something to be said for a hardworking package. You know, on the shelf, they really stick out. They are different from everything around them. The color of the actual product is vibrant and there. And the packaging is very simple.
• 24:41
  So I think that they were their own little billboard also. Totally. That's a nice way to describe it. For sure, their own little billboard. They do look very vibrant and very delicious when I was browsing the products. Thank you.
• 24:56
  When you were, you're talking about, you know, you wanted to tap into people's fears, people's desires to solve that real problem and figure out what their needs were. And you were talking to your community. To be clear, were you sending emails? Were you talking on Instagram? What were the ways that you were reaching your community? Right. That's a very good question. It's funny because we were doing it primarily in person. You know, we had 350 tickets a day in our cafe.
• 25:24
  So we would put out three different sauces and be like, if you fill this out, we'll give you a free coffee. Or, you know, in our classroom, we would say like, for those of you who are interested in doing a little taste test at the end of class, we'd love your opinion on the difference between this sauce and this sauce. You know, for us, consumer research was pretty easy because it was really in touch and connected.
• 25:50
  I think that one of the things I learned about it is that you can't really ask someone, what is it that you're missing in the kitchen? Because they don't really know, you know. So I think a lot of what you're doing as an early researcher in that case is trying to tease out things.
• 26:11
  an intuition about what your consumer needs. They're not going to be able to tell you, right? There's that old famous quote that's, I think, attributed to Henry Ford. You know, if you ask someone what kind of car they wanted, they'd say a faster horse or something like that, right? Like no one knew that they wanted a car, but they, but, you know,
• 26:32
  What you learn when you really engage with a community of people that you're trying to sell something to, and the more that you ask them just general questions, really qualitative questions about their experience in the kitchen, how they feel about cooking.
• 26:49
  Not what product would help you because they're not going to be able to answer that. But really to get an understanding of who you're speaking to and what would help them. So mostly it was in person. We did a lot of Instagram stories and a lot of polls and a lot of questions. And I DMed. I mean, I still DM hundreds of people a week.
• 27:13
  You know, and now it's like, why did you buy us? Why did you like us? Why did you decide to post about us? You know, what is it that we solved for you? Because we're still trying to figure out, is it because it's so fresh? Is it because it's gluten-free and vegan? Is it because of the pouch? You know, why? Because once you understand why people love you, then you're kind of locked and loaded and you're ready to go. And you can just...
• 27:39
  Keep following that. But if it's because you think that you know that you've made a great product and sure everyone should have this, you're not really tapping into your consumer. You're just tapping into yourself. You know? So true. So true. I feel like that was just a bit of genius you've just shared there. Well, it's fun. I mean, it's, it's really, it's fun. It's fun to learn about
• 28:05
  It's fun to learn about what you're helping people with. And I mean, I think for all of us who have packaged products, there's no better feeling to this day, no better feeling than someone on Instagram being like, I found this sauce and look at what I made and they feel like it's theirs.
• 28:23
  You know, it's not mine. It's theirs. And so if I'm going to get high on that feeling, then I want to know more. You know, what attracted you to us? Why are you buying us again? You know, again, it's very easy to get people to buy you once.
• 28:39
  You can spend a lot of money on Instagram ads, getting people to buy you once. But what really matters is the second purchase, the third purchase, the purchase where they're like, I'm getting this for five of my friends. Those are the ones that really matter. So why? You know, I enjoy it clearly.
• 29:01
  All the day long. All the day long. Was there anything that has come out of those conversations that was more unexpected that you were blind to before?
• 29:11
  I think I was surprised how many men love our product. And then I did some further research into men and cooking. And I actually think it's really fascinating. There's, there is some real research on the gender sort of difference between what men consider cooking and what women consider cooking. Yeah.
• 29:31
  And then as a rule and people who identify as men are much more comfortable saying I took pizza and I put packaged lettuce on it and then I put dressing on it and I cooked dinner.
• 29:48
  than women and traditional sort of like cooking, right? They would say, I didn't really make dinner. I just took pizza and put some lettuce on it. So men are much more comfortable being like, look what I made and much more comfortable with hacks and with products like ours that they don't feel like, why would I ever want to make this from scratch and mince all these, all of the things.
• 30:13
  herbs with olive oil. And so they're much more comfortable kind of using us and saying they made dinner, which I think is a really just sort of fascinating insight. And we're really leaning into like the men here because men are shopping more than ever. And now I think it's actually flipped in the United States that more men are doing the grocery shopping for their families than women are.
• 30:36
  That's interesting. Wow. And more men than ever are responsible for cooking. So great insight to pick up on. Yeah, it's kind of fun. And, you know, I think also the other thing that's been sort of like, I would, I wouldn't say negative, but I was surprised and unhappily. So there is still confusion about what to do with the pouches.
• 31:02
  So for many consumers, you see this squeezy pouch of chimichurri or tahini and you're like, oh, I'm going to grill a piece of chicken and I'm going to squeeze it on top and dinner done. And it's fairly intuitive. But for a lot of consumers, they're sort of like, where's the recipe? What am I supposed to do with this? How am I supposed to use this? And it's not so intuitive. Yeah.
• 31:26
  And while I'm all about, you know, we're agnostic. If you only eat meat or if you never eat meat, if you only eat gluten, if you never eat gluten, we're here for you because we can be everything, right? We can be a marinade. We can be a dressing. We can be a simmer sauce. You can cook us. You can leave us, you know, uncooked. That's a little bit too much choice for some consumers. Right.
• 31:50
  In general, they have so many choices to make during the day that choosing that last thing of what am I going to do with this pouch is actually overwhelming to some of them. And where I see it as liberating and giving you agency over your dinner, they see it as kind of encumbering.
• 32:09
  And so trying to kind of find the nice line between giving you good suggestions and giving you very easy meal solutions and also leaving freedom for you to be creative and enjoy it and do what you want. That's kind of what we're trying to figure out now as a brand.
• 32:26
  Yeah. And where that content comes into people's lives, how you reach them. Wow. That's so interesting. I love that. It sounds like a really cool journey that you're on at the moment with, um, you know, switching focus a little kind of like wrapping up one era, starting another, but also like learning all these new things, new insights, new people to target. Really cool. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm in school again.
• 32:50
  You know, and I will say, you know, also just closing up one era, you know, we always had a little bit of a problem with messaging. You know, even our website, we were booking weddings. We were booking cooking classes. We were selling the cookbook. We had a cafe menu that everyone needed to know about. And we also, by the way, have these sauces. You know, now we have one product.
• 33:14
  We have one message. You know, we have one thing that we're all focused on. And the messaging is so much clearer. And that's been huge for us. You know, not only for me mentally, just like kind of, as you said, sort of like clearing one part of my brain and really going all in. But for my team, for our Instagram, for our website, for our email newsletters, you know, there's nothing else to...
• 33:40
  to confuse people about what we are. And honestly, people in Birmingham, Alabama, don't care if we're a cooking school. They want to know how the chimichurri is going to help them make dinner. And so, you know, we feel like our, you know, we're doing a brand refresh right now, which is super fun experience. I would recommend it to anyone. It's,
• 34:03
  It's so much fun having actual like professionals looking at you, helping you with like strategy and then taking that strategy and launching it into design and visual. Because the package is basically right now are like our store logo from 2012 on a pouch. So we need we need some help.
• 34:26
  There's room for growth. Room for growth. But yeah, it's, you know, there's something to be said for, you know, someone, the founder of Spindrift, a guy named Bill Creelman, who's just really smart. He uses this expression, simplify to amplify.
• 34:44
  You know, really focus in on what you are, what you're selling, what your vision is, what your mission is, how you're going to tell that story, who your people are and, and lean into that and everything else just kind of clear away for now, because this will be able to get bigger. And all the other things just become a little bit noisy. Totally. I, I definitely see that. Wow. I love that. So cool.
• 35:14
  When you look back over the last eight years, almost a decade, what is it that you think has made you successful? Like, what do you attribute your success to? I would say that the key for me has been empathy. I think that I am genuinely always trying to put myself in the shoes of the people I work with.
• 35:40
  the people I'm selling my sauce to, anyone on the other side of anything from me, the more that I understand where they're coming from, how they're thinking about things, the clearer I can be in my communication
• 35:58
  you know, the more straightforward, I think, you know, I think most of the problems that happen, whether it's like between people or between companies or with service providers is not that anyone's like bad or trying to be a jerk. It's just that there's a lack of communication. Something's gotten missed. You know, it's usually, well, that wasn't in the scope of work, but we thought it was, or, you know, I didn't realize that you needed this by Friday.
• 36:28
  but I needed it by Friday. And so I think over the years, I've learned that being a nice person isn't the thing. Being a nice person is great for your friendships and for your relationships. But in terms of being a good business leader, having empathy is the key. Because then even if I'm talking to the buyer at Target, I'm not just trying to sell him my product
• 36:56
  I'm looking at him and being like, what are his needs? What does he need to do this year? What is his boss asking from him? What goal is he trying to reach? And that way I can genuinely try to fill it. You know, if I'm just like, this is amazing and you should take this product and here's how many Instagram followers we have. I'm not really looking at him or listening to him.
• 37:21
  I'm not really, you know, empathizing with his situation. He has a job. He has like a certain number he has to hit. He has a boss who's giving him pressure. All of those things. And the more that I understand about him and him as a human, not only the better I can be for him, but the truth is...
• 37:42
  you know, when things do go wrong, if I have a relationship that is built on genuine trust and genuine empathy with this human being, he will be more likely to give me a break. He'll be more likely to give me a pass, you know? So I think it's been part of my success just building a reputation and building a business. But it's also just been my success in really...
• 38:09
  understanding human behavior and making myself a better communicator. You'll never hear me say, I need this without saying when. You'll never hear me say, this is what I'd like, but not with like, this is the goal of why I would like this. And this is what done looks like to me. Because I don't want to put anyone in a position where they're anxious about giving me something that they think I need, you know, and that's just empathy.
• 38:39
  That's so cool. I love that. That's a really interesting answer. And it's also that thing of like that puts the sprinkle all over the world as well, because it creates better relationships. It creates better experiences day to day. It, someone might be hating their job and then they've actually got a really cool meeting where they're actually, you know, happy about that meeting. And then it brightens their afternoon. There's, there's a, a deep like ripple on effect from
• 39:09
  I don't care what business you're in. The world is about human beings. And human beings have relationships and human beings are complicated. We have billions of neurons. We have billions of triggers. You know, going into the world with your eyes sort of open and looking how you can make other people feel better.
• 39:30
  And knowing that like the way that you communicate with them will have an impact on their day and that they'll go home and that will have an impact on their partner and their family and the next person on the phone with them, just being aware of that power. I think, you know, I don't know if it's karma or if it's juju or what it is, but I definitely, I want to go through the world that way. I never want to be the source of someone's
• 39:59
  pit in their stomach or tightness in their chest. I've had enough of that in my life. I certainly don't want to be that for anybody else. Totally. Absolutely. What advice do you have for women who have a big idea and want to launch their own business? I do think it goes back to sort of the early discussion. I think, you know, I am all about
• 40:24
  go you and follow your passion. I know that I did. And I would never tell anyone not to. But I think that you have to balance that with reality. And I think you have to understand the market that you're entering, the consumer that you're approaching. I have a podcast about building consumer brands. And I talk a lot about this like phantom black bean cookie.
• 40:51
  For some reason, I use it in all of my discussions as like the example. You could have the most delicious cookie in the world. It could be the healthiest cookie in the world. It could have every adaptogen on the planet and literally make you smarter and glow. If it's next to a cookie that is, you know, $3 and yours is $30, it's not going to sell.
• 41:17
  It's not going to work for a supermarket buyer. You might be able to get people on the internet to buy it, but there will be a cap at how much they will want to buy that. So you have to be aware of what's around you. I think a lot of people are like, this is my dream. And I've been told that I need to single-mindedly follow my dream.
• 41:39
  I think that that's really faulty advice. Because I think if you single-mindedly follow your dream without looking around you at who else is doing something, what the market is like, what people can tolerate, where is this going to go in the store? How are you going to market this?
• 41:55
  How much is it going to cost to make this, right? That cookie could have gross margins of 4%. That means that you will constantly be on the hunt for fundraising. That means that you, at the end of your business, when and if it sells, will own under 5%. Do you want to work for the next 10 years to own 3% of something, right? That sells for, let's say, best case scenario, $100 million.
• 42:23
  Right. It's so these are just, you know, there are, I remember when I was opening the cooking school, there are just some rules about retail restaurants, especially. And,
• 42:34
  Your annual sales should be more than 10 times your monthly rent, right? So when you are first getting into it, you're like 10 times, like what other costs are there, right? Like, oh, it's going to be fine. It'll be fine if it's, but it's not fine because all of these things happen. You have labor, you have insurance, the toilet breaks, you know, whatever, right?
• 42:57
  There are some rules that it can be 2020 or it can be 1914. And like the rules are the same, you know? And then there's everything else that's changed. All of those variables, you know, how you reach your target consumer is totally different now than it was even two years ago. Certainly different than it was five or 10 years ago. But building a business with like bad gross margins, that's never going to be a good idea. Yeah.
• 43:25
  And you can't sort of assume that the margins are just going to magically get better as you get bigger, which is a very faulty assumption that a lot of people make. Well, with scale, I'll go from 20% gross margins to 60. That's not how it happens. You know, so I think...
• 43:43
  My advice is follow your dream, but in so doing, do as much research as you can. Understand everything that there is to know, not only about your product, your competition, the market size, the way that people in that market consume, the dynamics of that market. What happens to that market in a recession? What happens when we come out of a recession? There's so much you can do just on Google, just on your desk while you're
• 44:13
  learn as much as possible. And that'd be my advice. Totally. Basically be like really financially literate and really know your numbers and have everything super clear before you jump in. Yeah. You know, look at, look beyond the branding because there are a lot of companies out there, especially when you're scrolling on Instagram, they look amazing. They look like they're killing it, quote unquote, right?
• 44:38
  But there's a lot going on behind the brand, right? There's actual business. And if you're not building a fundamentally strong business, and again, margins for every category are different. So for me, having 40% gross margin as a fresh refrigerated brand is great. If I were a beauty brand, it'd be terrible, right? So it's different. But learning those things, and those are things you can easily research.
• 45:08
  Totally. Thanks. Yeah, that's great advice. I love that. Okay, we're up to the six quick questions part of the episode. Question number one is what's your why? My why is to make people feel great when they're making a meal. Love that. Simple. I love it. Question number two is what's been the number one marketing moment that's made your business pop?
• 45:38
  I have to say, it might be because it's so recent, but we started doing Instacart ads in August. And we saw some of our stores triple in volume almost immediately. It was just like a flip of a switch. And boom, all of a sudden, just selling a lot of sauce at a certain number of retailers.
• 46:00
  What's an Instacart ad? Instacart is a grocery store delivery platform. So it basically, it's a massive business now that's got a lot of funding, but it is the delivery mechanism that a bunch of grocery stores use around the country that don't have their own.
• 46:22
  So in the middle of a pandemic, when people are not going into the supermarket and they're not milling around when they do go into the supermarket and they're not like tootling around and, oh, look at those pouches. I think I'll buy those. But they're on their computers buying groceries from their local grocery store through Instacart. We now have search word ads. So we come up if you type
• 46:45
  miso or sauce. And that has really been massive for us. So anyone in America that has a product that isn't doing Instacart ads, I would seriously do them. Yeah. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Question number three is where do you hang out to get smarter? What are you reading? What do you listen to? Who are you chatting with? Well, right now I'm reading a book called Cast.
• 47:11
  It's one of the best books I've ever read in my life. It's about sort of the caste system in America and how...
• 47:23
  Race has been used to sort of designate human beings as lesser human beings and how systemized and sort of conscious that was. It compares the American caste system with the Indian caste system, which is much more familiar to people. And of course, Nazi Germany, which had a short-lived but very powerful, very sad caste system of itself.
• 47:52
  So it's beautifully written. It's also really, I think, important reading right now as America is having sort of a reckoning with our race problem. It's definitely opening my eyes to a lot of things that I, you know, as a privileged white woman, didn't necessarily know or see. So that's been fascinating. On the business side, I'm reading this book. It's called...
• 48:19
  who solve your number one problem. It's about hiring and finding the right people for your team. We are going to be growing our team. I am very nervous to hire because I love my team so much and we're so close. But it gives a really good framework for that process and for really vetting people well and for going through it and not hopefully making a hiring mistake, which is hard to undo.
• 48:47
  Totally. They both sound super interesting. I'm going to link them in the show notes of this episode for anyone who wants to listen. Great. Well, read or listen to. Question number four is how do you win the day? And that's around your AM and PM rituals that keep you feeling happy and motivated and successful. So I start every morning with a eucalyptus shower. I have eucalyptus
• 49:13
  You know, I don't know how to, what this word is, but I'm gesturing, but like, the oil into the shower. I let it get steamy and I get in and I immediately feel like I'm at a spa, even though I'm home. Usually I take a walk with my dog. I try to get some vitamin D. I have a rower that I just kind of put down and I row for 25, 30 minutes, try to get, you know,
• 49:40
  some heart rate going. That's my morning. At night, I like to take a bath and read. It just helps. I take an Epsom salt bath. I usually, a friend of mine has a really great skincare line. It's called Gold, G-O-L-D-E. And she makes a really great mask. And I put the mask on and I get in the tub and I read. Yeah.
• 50:05
  Trinity, right? Trinity, yeah. She's been on the show. I love her. Yes, she's wonderful. She's a good friend. And I love that green mask. Like I love playing with it in my hands and putting it on. I do cook dinner every night. But mostly those are, you know, those are how I roll.
• 50:27
  Yeah, totally. I actually do the same morning shower thing, but with the lavender oil, like really calms me down and just is like, well, not that I need calming, but for me, that is just the best smell. I love lavender oil so much. That's how I feel about eucalyptus. And it makes me just feel like clean and happy, you know? Totally. Absolutely. I'm going to give it a try. Question number five is if you only had a thousand
• 51:00
  I think I would divide it among the team and call it a day. If we only had a thousand dollars, I would be like, thank you. I love you. We're not spending any more money. You guys can just take this and go buy some drinks. This is it. Thank you. Bye. Yeah, this is it. Perfect. And last question, question number six is how do you deal with failure? Hmm.
• 51:28
  Well, um, I mean, if I'm being totally honest, I get into bed. I like probably most women, uh,
• 51:38
  Don't... My first reaction isn't their problem, their loss, huge mistake. It's what did I do wrong? Where did I say the wrong thing? How could I have done this differently? Maybe I'm not totally worthy. What am I doing in this business anyway? Who do I think I am? So honestly, that happens. The time that that happens has gotten shorter and shorter as I've gotten older and older, thank goodness. But after...
• 52:06
  that sort of like licking my wounds, I start to look at the facts. And I think that that's what I've been taught to do by very smart mental health professionals. The facts are, I've raised this amount of money. The facts are, I've grown my business 10 times since the last round of funding. The facts are, I have a team that works really hard that respects me. The facts are, we have a great product. And it's just, you're not going to get yourself out of a mental
• 52:36
  real with another mental real. You're going to get yourself out of the mental real by looking at the hardcore facts. And I have them written now in the notes section of my computer so that when I don't remember them, I can read them to myself. And that usually gets me out of bed.
• 52:59
  That's really clever. Really, really clever. Sometimes you have to remind yourself because you know that when your amygdala is all fired up and you're feeling sad, you're not going to get to resources that you need in your own mind. So you need to kind of write to yourself. I know you're going to have a downtime. That's okay. And here's what I'm going to tell you for when you're in that downtime. Self to self.
• 53:25
  Love it. Totally love it. Wow. Allie, thank you so much for taking the time to share so much wisdom and learning and just all the good things. I've so loved this chat and I feel like I really learned a lot. So thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. I think what you're doing is amazing. We need more people saying like brass tacks, not like I remember when I built this thing and now I'm, you know,
• 53:51
  at the top of the mountain. So thank you so much for making this resource available to women founders. It's really important.
• 54:02
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 54:26
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 54:49
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.
• 55:06
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 55:30
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 55:53
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.