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REWIND: Messy Exits​ · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, and welcome to uh Pittsburgh Sports Memories broadcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, as usual, I'm your co-host, Steve Wirt, with Hey, I'm Tim Hannon.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're going to talk about messy exits from the Pittsburgh sports scene.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I we didn't necessarily like limit it to just people, like not just athletes.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: There'll be some people that were just kind of involved with sports and maybe some teams that you might not think of, but definitely some messy exits here.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, some people have that exit type kind of nailed down, like Jerome Bettis or even Ben Rothelsberger or Mario Lemieux.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of had graceful exits, and then um then there's this group of uh people they they did not have such such graceful exits from the uh Pittsburgh sports scene.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um the first group, like um, this is like I will call these is a group of Steelers in one media person, I think I put in here.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um is like I call them more of the Chuck Knoll headaches.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So and later on you'll find out that there's a different coach that had his own set of headaches.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um and that first one that had like a messy exit would be uh Franco.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Frank, that would be one Franco Harris.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's there's a pretty well-known story.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um Franco had a Hall of Fame career with the Steelers.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's also like, you know, caught that pretty famous play, the uh the old Immaculate Receptions.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: He also won four Super Bowls, and uh at the end of his career, he actually had become a leading rusher.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think he was the fourth leading rusher in NFL history, and I think he was of active players at the time, he was the leading rusher because probably Walter Payton was still kind of early on in his career.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that would make this 1983 and the summer of 1983.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So well, what happened?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: How what uh exit did uh Mr.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Harris have that made it messy?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that would be he held out for more money.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And in 1983, there was no free agency, so that was uh a bad idea because they didn't want to pay people more money.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the Steelers cut him.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um what makes it even more messy was that when the reporters asked Chuck Knowle about Harris leaving, do you know how Chuck Knowle responded?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Franco who?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, instead of just like, you know, I realized like Chuck Knowle wasn't the warm and cuddliest person in the world, and you know, he just could have said, you know, maybe if he'd been asked like 20 times, I could understand.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how are you gonna get along without Franco?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: You could have given like the stock, we're just gonna worry about the people that are here, we can't worry about people that have left, we wish them the best with their future career, blah, blah, blah.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But he just I maybe just had heard enough, but um, but I guess Harris hadn't his play, like he hadn't even left Pittsburgh and signed with Seattle yet.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it was just it was just a very like cold moment to a like a very popular, and he was a popular player, they had like Franco's Italian Army, and uh he ended up signing a deal with the Seattle Seahawks.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, what was the the kind of like the aftermath of all this?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um Harris like he was probably done.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers didn't make a mistake in cutting him.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: He only played in another eight games that season with the Seahawks, and I don't think he had that very many yards.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even write down his stats.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how did it go for Chuck Knoll?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he never really made another Super Bowl.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: He kind of had a bad 80s and a little bit of the 90s, he just was kind of done.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So the Steelers, the good news is the Steelers and Franco made up after Franco had retired that past year, I guess they said.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And he's been a pretty prominent member of the Steelers.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: You'll see him around and talking to people and you know, hawking Steelers stuff.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Was that was that a big deal in your house, Tim?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Franco Who, or did your parents like, ah, cut the bum?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I think uh I what I remember and I I was pretty young, I remember people kind of being like cut the bum because you know he he was holding out for more money.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's never a popular thing in Pittsburgh, no matter who you are, or whether you deserve it or not.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and and but then at the same time the Franco Who thing, a lot of people kind of really held that against Chuck Noel.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, like we were all mad at him, but man, like he won you four Super Bowls and he was here for a dozen seasons.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're right, Stewart did make the right decision there.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, 12 seasons as a as a punishing fullback.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe he was even still playing much less, you know, demanding more money at that point.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it it seems impossible for a running back, especially one that ran like he did, to last that long.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know he supposedly ran out of bounds a lot and that extended his career, but but nevertheless, that was still a kind of a brutal era.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So but yeah, the the Franco Who thing, a lot of people were still remember that to this day.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Probably more so than the Hold Out itself.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I tell you who really held that against and didn't watch the Steelers until uh Chuck Knowle retired was my dad.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: My dad, that really ticked my dad off, and he he never watched, he hated, he was never a big pro football fan, and I think that just kind of totally soured him on it even more because he always loved college football, and that just I think that was just the cherry on the top of the Sunday for him.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And he just, yep.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: He never liked Chuck Knowle.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Never and we really we really didn't watch the Steelers until he retired and uh Coward took over.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So got that, got that for you.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the next person on this list, another person that Chuck Knowle had his uh ins and outs with, although this might be more on this person's end than Chuck's.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh that would be one Terry Bradshaw.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we've talked about Terry before a couple times on the podcast.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what what where where did Terry Bradshaw come from?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: He came from Louisiana Tech, where he was the starting, he was actually the backup quarter to the duck commander guy until that guy decided to make duck whistle calls instead of you know Phil Robertson, I think is the guy's name.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of doing that, he instead of being a quarterback, he went and made uh like millions of dollars doing that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: But Terry Bradshaw did play football and uh would go on to be a first-round draft pick and four-time Super Bowl-winning quarterback.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is he still the highest Steelers draft pick since 1970, Tim?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what number was he number one overall?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: He was number one overall, yeah.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So well, you can't get any higher than that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so what what happened?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the messy exit here.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh I remember we talked about this on another podcast.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: He had injured his elbow in training camp, but he did not tell anyone in the team.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So he had surgery actually under the assumed name Tom Brady, without the Steelers' knowledge.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think we did it in like odd, what was it probably odd stories or something like that?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or fun facts.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: We mentioned that somewhere that he yeah, he had the surgery under the name Tom Brady, which was a just a really odd coincidence.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so Bradshaw stated he did not know that that was the name that was used.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was just one of those fluke things.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another great thing that Terry Bradshaw did was he disobeyed the doctor's orders, and instead of like resting his elbow for three months, because I think he had like something similar to a Tommy John surgery, he began throwing two months, like one month.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: He just like rested it for one month and started throwing, and so it resulted in more tears to the elbow and uh it it like swelled up to like the size of a softball.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: So Terry didn't do himself any favors, and then like the Steelers really didn't know that he had done that.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so on December 10th, 1983, a game against the Jets, which I actually saw his last on YouTube, it's floating around out there.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: He actually felt a pop in his elbow while flowing his final pass.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And his final pass, ironically enough, was a 10-yard touchdown to a guy named Calvin Sweeney, the immortal Calvin Sweeney, Tim.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you had your Calvin Sweeney jersey when you were like, what, five years old in 1983?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, him and Ouija Thompson.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Those were the those were the receivers of the era.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it actually ended up being a 34-7 win for the Steelers.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um he left the game and he never could play again.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um those two touchdowns he threw would be his final NFL game.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it actually would be the final NFL game that the uh played in Shea Stadium, that it was in Shea Stadium, believe it or not.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um he finished with 212 touchdowns and 10 interceptions.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, I want I want to play five.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is an article from the New York Times.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I want to play five or six more years if my arm comes around, Bracho said.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want uh my career to end like this.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them do, but I don't want mine to.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe you shouldn't have thrown the ball.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe should have fallen the rehab instructions of a qualified surgeon.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: But hey, when you're from Louisiana, you know better, right?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh anyway, the consequences were the Steelers don't draft a quarterback named Dan Marino.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe if they knew he was hurt, he would have been more honest.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: They they would have like taken it more seriously, they wouldn't have drafted Terry Bradshaw.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Bradshaw's had mostly a love-hate relationship with the city, but mostly a hate relationship with his head coach.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I I will say this in defense of Terry Bradshaw, as we can see in this era with like Frank, the Franco Who comment, like maybe he was afraid that if he told the Steelers he was hurt, they'd be like, Well, see ya, and just cut him.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe they would have done that.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Normally, for like legendary players like that, they didn't even Chuck Knoll didn't necessarily do that.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you kind of, you know, were a loyal person and you know didn't just stick it to them.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Even the guy, you know, I don't know, they've been pretty generous to even people that have maybe not left on the greatest of terms, Terry included, they they welcomed them back, had a whole ceremony and old thing.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it feels like with Terry it's like it was a messy exit that has been messy uh ever since.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like because like you said, like Franco, it was a messy exit, but all is forgiven, and we welcome them back with open arms, and you know, a lot of people don't even think about that.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And Bradley just seems like it's just been this up and down messy thing for you know 40 years for whatever reason.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think he holds on to stuff in like you said, sometimes it's almost like he says like whoever's interviewing him, he just says whatever he thinks they want to hear.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's he's a very like has a very different kind of personality.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's like it's not that he is bipolar, but the the it's like very bipolar-ish.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's up and down.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: One second, oh I love Coach Noel and the Steelers in Pittsburgh.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Oh, I hate him, they booed me and benched me.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's that kind of stuff.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't let me sing country music and not right, right.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: You could you could put together like a string of quotes of Terry just can completely contradicting himself.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it it is what it is.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are you gonna do?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's he was a great player, and uh we won four Super Bowls because of him.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what what else can you say?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's really all you can say.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's fun to watch on TV.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean his songs weren't terrible.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he may he may he makes uh he had that that I think that was a top five hit.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: On the country charts.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So good, good for Terry.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh sticking with our Steelers theme, now this is this guy maybe I don't know if he ever gave Chuck Nolan any headaches, but he was kind of in that era, although he kind of spun it spanned the coward cower era too.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: So he was there a long time.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: That would be one Myron Cope.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: You say, Myron Cope, how did that guy ever have a messy exit?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me tell you.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't know if you've been like living under a rock or well, maybe not, it's been he's been gone like since what he died in 2008.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he's been gone a minute.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you don't know.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Myron Cope was a long broadcaster for the Pittsburgh Steelers on the radio back when people used to listen to games on the radio.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you're ever stuck in your car, you can do that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Turn on you know whatever radio station they're on nowadays.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: What's that?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: DVE still.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So he him and uh uh it was Jack Fleming and then Bill Hillgrove.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh also Myron Cope had a long print career.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: He actually wrote a lot of stuff for Sports Illustrated and the Post Gazette.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: He also um he had his own radio shows, like talk radio shows for a while on uh you know, I think it was 1250.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know about KDK, but he definitely had you know just like your standard like you know, hey Myron, what do you think of Terry Bradshaw getting hurt?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'll hang up and listen, you know, that kind of stuff.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I bet that happened.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: He used to have a show called Cope's Cabana, which was the uh post-game for the Steelers, which was just highly entertaining because he sang the song Copa Cabana by Barry Manilo.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um he had this like you know, he had these crazy phrases like okay and yoi and he invented the terrible towel, which everybody knows what that is, and he actually donates all the money from that to the Allegheny School.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so how did how did this all go awry?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it didn't really all go awry.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's that it was a messy exit.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: So he had gotten actually sick during the 2004 season.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: I remember this, he missed some of that Eagles game that year because he had fallen at home and they had to like send somebody to find him.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and he actually retired after the AFC championship game when the Steelers got blown up by the Patriots.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that was uh so he actually missed the Super Bowl win in 2005, at least broadcasting it.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the NFL, like for his years of service and like you know, being a minor celebrity, said, Now how about uh we'll give you a ceremony for the Hall of Fame?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: He he so uh they invited him to the Hall of Fame, and he now he says he didn't, but everybody who saw this says he he was.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying he showed up drunk, but he what is not in dispute is that he gave a rambling speech, and at which point, you know how the Oscars will just play you off.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they did more than that.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: They sent a guy up from like the Hall of Fame, tapped him on the shoulder, and like made him go sit down.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So um the trib actually interviewed him about it, and he said I would call it the big shot bombs at the Hall of Fame.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he actually apologized for his rambling speech.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: It went more than 10 minutes over a strict television time limit.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um he he like had received the NFL's highest broadcasting honor, the Hall of Fame's Pete Rosell Radio and Television Award.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he just said, I just felt terri horrible about what I did, Cope said.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: My behavior was stupid.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to apologize to the people who were there, the fans and the people at the Hall of Fame.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um he said it was conceit, not an extended happy hour that led to his puzzling behavior.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he had actually retired after 35 reasons.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So were there any fallout?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really think there was really any fallout from this, besides like maybe a few people that don't like him that may or may not be named Mark Madden.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um but Cope is still a legend with the fans and the media.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's just one of those things, it just kind of gets swept under the rug.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: You just kind of sh shrug your shoulders about like eh, he's the you know, the body of work was so good, and you know, we're not gonna hold like one who of uh us hasn't gotten drunk and said some stupid stuff at the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've all done that.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe not in quite the public forum that he did, but I can only I can certainly say I've shot my mouth off more than once.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So at least not in front of millions of people yet.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I uh I totally forgot about that.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like completely forgot about that.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um exactly to my point.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's to my point, is nobody votes it against though.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, that was a good that's that was a good good memory on your part for a messy exit because I I completely forgot about that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't think we talked about it in the in the 2005 Super Bowl episode that we did.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I almost put it on on the forgotten controversies.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: But do you remember there was a group of people that wanted the Steelers to bring him back just to announce Super Bowl 40?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't know that.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: That would have been I think he was too past his price.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: He started the he knew it.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: He he had said that he had told a friend of his, tell me when I'm starting to lose it, because I don't want to, you know, make embarrass myself.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Unless I'm at the Pro Hood Fall Hall of Fame.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, his friend was asleep at the wheel that night, apparently.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Grab him.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe his friend was the one who finally like went up and was like, hey, you gotta sit down, yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, it's a shame.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a shame that happened, but nobody remembers it, so it's not really that big of a deal.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, you know, he just he just he's just said he got a big head and just kind of got carried away.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it is what it is.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um so now the next group of Steeler uh messy exits will be Mike Tomlin headaches.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we all can know we'll just we won't we won't hold this one out any longer because who do you think will be A number one on this list, Tim?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um some guy that wore number eighty-four, probably.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I realize there's kind of like a 1A and a 1B in this situation, there for sure.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the 1A is is tops of the list.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and the one and number 84, I mean, there are like multiple uh cities sports memory podcasts that could put him on the same list.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's let's go through it, Tim.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Here, but let's break it down.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a guess, this is one Antonio Brown.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was selected in the sixth round.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: He was actually the 22nd out of 2027 wide receivers that were picked in the whole draft.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: So he was towards the bottom.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Gee, I wonder why.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what did he do?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: He only went on to have a Hall of Fame career as a wide receiver.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, his stats are unbelievable.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: The catches he made were like, I'm looking at some of them now.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: He had for three years, wow, geez, man.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I only went to 2019.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's been over a hundred receptions from 2000.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is that oh my gosh, that's from like 2012 to 2019.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: He had a hundred receptions every year.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's insane.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now, some of that was him.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta get my five catches and blah, blah, blah, yards.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that might be a little inflated, but that's still pretty impressive.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these aren't just like tipping the scales, like these are one of well, one year was one oh one, but 110, 129, 136.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're at a hundred pass, like 80 passes in a year is pretty good, but 100, that's impressive.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So he was really good.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for I'd say the first four or five years he was here, he was pretty quiet.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: He I mean, I don't think you heard too much from him.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, how did this all go awry?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is pretty infamous in the halls of Steeler history here.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, before the final week of the 2018 season, Brown had mostly gained for his season.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So he he was given like that week 17, Brown was giving a rest day on Wednesday.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So he didn't practice for the rest of the week for what they said was a knee injury, and then Brown was inactive for the game that Sunday.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And Tomlin actually said that benching was due to injury and lack of information.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then like reports were later that Brown had actually thrown a football at Ben Rothelsberger during the week, and also he was mad because Juju Smith Schuster was being named team NBP and not him, because that's important.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just I think they just had had enough of his act, and I think they they were out of the playoffs by then, weren't they?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think this season, Tim.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: They had to win and then have Cleveland beat Baltimore, which Cleveland almost did.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was the game where everybody we won our game, and then everybody stood around the field.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: They put the end of the Browns game on the scoreboard, and Baker Baker led them like into Baltimore territory, but then they like went out on downs or something.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was so they weren't out of the playoffs, but they were, you know, they needed sort of a little bit of a miracle.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so he really it really kind of was like a very nondescript game.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you say, Oh, the Steelers, you know, kind of cut 'em and got rid of them.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they ended up uh trading them on March 9th to the Oakland Raiders in exchange for a third.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And fifth round selection.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, prior to the Oakland deal, they wanted to trade him to the Buffalo Bills, but Brown wasn't going to Buffalo, so they couldn't trade him there.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this this guy is like there's like more mess to the already.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to get rid of him, and now he's going to tell them where he wants to go where he's going to go.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, this guy's had like I know Ryan Clark didn't like him.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um he said they were going to offer him money, and he said, if you give him money, you're going to create a monster.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh him, he said, like him and Brown almost got in the fight, and he started like saying things to Coach Lebeau, and he was like screaming at Coach LeBeau and like, don't touch me on the franchise, is what Brown said.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, Troy Paul Mulley didn't like him, and I guess it was the same incident.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Troy Paul Muller, and I I know we covered this in another podcast, I'm pretty sure.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: He got so mad at him, he said the wide receivers coach Scotty Montgomery, the receivers are live targets the rest of the period.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Which so Troy wanted to start going and like hitting Antonio Brown, like for real.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean he pissed off Troy Pole.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Ryan Clark, maybe, but Troy Paul Mollow, really.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what happened to Antonio Brown?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he after he went to Oakland, he never I don't think he he didn't play to any games for Oakland because he got in a fight with uh John Gruden and Mike Mayock over like a ton of different stuff, like a helmet and this.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then he went and he went to New England and played one week there and actually had a good week, and then he did something, like he was tweeting about something, or wasn't he harassing somebody he had a legal problem with?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so New England.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a woman.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so New England cut him.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then he went to Tampa Bay, and he actually like kind of minded his behavior finally.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he wasn't like as good as he was, but he was still good, and he caught a touchdown in the Super Bowl and got a Super Bowl ring finally with Tampa Bay.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, last year, like they needed him in a game, and like Brady told him to get in there, and like Arians told him he went nuts again and walked off the field, took off his shirt and walked off the field and said he didn't, you know, wasn't gonna play.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, according to Brown, it's everyone else's fault, right?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's out to get Mr.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Antonio Brown, like Ryan Clark, Troy Palomalo, Mike Tomlin, John Gruden, Mike Mayoch, Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, Tom Brady again, and finally Bruce Arians.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, all these people are the bad guys and just picking on poor old Antonio Brown.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's it's just such a shame because he he's the greatest receiver in the history of the team.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know Lynn Swan, John Stalwarth, Heinzward, I and there's even San Henry Holmes, there's been some great receivers.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: But he's the greatest.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: that that like just watching him play was just amazing.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: He was so consistent, he was so good in the clutch, All that stuff.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then he just like threw away.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: He still, I mean, he was getting older, but he still had several good years left in his career, and he just totally imploded.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just a sad thing.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, I I'm not even like mad at him or hate him or anything.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just sad for him, I guess.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: He like Tom Brady literally stuck his neck out twice for him, and he screwed him both times.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just a a lack of self-awareness or just a severe narcissism, or like it's just I I don't know what's wrong with the dude.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's just yeah, I hope he saved his money because he's gonna need it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: So moving onward and upward, the next the next guy on our list is uh Legarrett Blunt.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So um he was a journeyman running back, he had his best year with the Pirates, Pirates, the Patriots the year before, and um then in the offseason he signed with the Steelers for the 2014 season.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So he was like kind of a big running back, and I guess they just needed somebody to help.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: That was in the Le'Veon Bell years, yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: To help, you know, the the young Le'Veon Bell out on some carries, take some load off.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And he was big, like he was good for like the first and goals and stuff like that.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: So unfortunately, on November 17, 2014, uh Legarrett Blunt decided to uh leave the game early.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: He decided he'd had enough of his work, and he he didn't get a touch, he didn't get any carries that year, so he left before the game was ended.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um he also like got released and he only he only scored two touchdowns for the Steelers.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Apparently, like in Nashville, he dressed and left the rock locker room and headed for the team bus.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't even wait like in the locker room for the rest of the team to come in.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: At least one player thought they should leave him in Nashville.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, another quote was that Blunt had been an internal problem for at least a month for the Steelers, and sources told the Post Gazette that he's dragging down Star uh Le'Veon Bell, even though you know Bell still had some good performances with him there.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, there was some off-the-field stuff that Blunt was involved with, with Bell too.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think there was a traffic stop with like some marijuana or something.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I think they were going like 80 or 90.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't like going slow.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what were the consequences?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that season the Steelers they lost to Baltimore in the playoffs.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was criticized by teammates, they call him a cancer.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they wondered, a lot of people wondered why did he even sign with the Steelers in the first place?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because he went right back to the Patriots the next week.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually kind of funny because I've thought this for a year.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I thought this was a uh a case of tampering by the Patriots and Bill Belchak and Josh McDaniel.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Ed Bouchette, to his credit, did ask him when, because the Patriots made the Super Bowl that year.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Blunt did answer no, and he did not orchestrate his exit, and he would not answer whether the Patriots would have wanted him back before he left the Steelers.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Oh, I enjoyed my time here and they brought me back, and I'm just happy to be here.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: There was always rumors that that happened, that there was texts between him and the Patriots coaching staff, and that there was some like tampering going on, but I couldn't find that reported anywhere in the media.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um we'll just have to uh take it that you know the Steelers cut him.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, was he under instructions from you know the Patriots coaching staff to oh just you know totally be an idiot so we can get you back or not?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you put any stock in that, Tim?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not a big conspiracy theory guy.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so no, I don't put a lot of stock in it, but at the same time, if anybody was gonna pull that off, it'd be it would definitely be the Patriots.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but but yeah, I mean it you said that they lost to Baltimore in the playoffs that year.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think they did, yeah.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they did.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I'll I was gonna say I'll give you a hundred dollars if you can remember who the starting running back in that game was because Le'Veon Bell had gotten hurt and then we didn't have blood anymore.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 2014.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Atlantis Gary.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was Josh Harris, the immortal Josh Harris.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Was the le was the leading rusher in that playoff game, 25 yards, and they had signed Ben Tate off the street.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, literally, they had signed him like that week.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember the last.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: So having Blunt might have helped, although they they did get blown out.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but that that hurt not having any kind of running.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was very one-dimensional offense in that game because and and Bell had literally gotten hurt the last game of the season against Cincinnati.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: So like the week before Bell goes down, they signed Ben Tate off the street to come play a playoff game.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and then the Josh Harris was the other guy.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was just um it was like not that they had no chance, but I mean they they really were um struggling to compete.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so Blunt self-imploting that year really kind of, you know, could you could say led to the demise of the team in the playoffs eventually.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: So um next up on our Mike Tomlin headaches, people, um James Harrison.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you say James Harrison was never a headache.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, he was.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is a perfect case of I think he there is proof that he did this intentionally.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And once again, boy, what a shocker to balls the Patriots.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because this was, I think this was after the Blunt thing.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: This actually happened after the Blunt thing.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: So James Harrison, who is he?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you don't know who he is, but hey, here we go.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's one of the greatest outside linebackers to ever play for the Steelers.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: He actually made an iconic play in Super Roll 43 with that interception, returned for a touchdown.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um, when did they come to his messy exit?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was actually on his third stint with the Steelers.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: He had like gone to Cincinnati, I think, for a year, come back to the Steelers, got cut again.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where he went after.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Did he go to the Patriots that time?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: His third stint was because it early in his career he was with the Steelers and they cut him.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then he went to the Ravens and then came back to the Steelers before anybody knew who he was.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: So this is why that's why this is after Cincinnati.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is after Cincinnati and before.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um so once again, he wasn't playing much.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um Harrison, they had said was uh starting to carry on in the locker room.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: They called him a locker room cancer.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um Mike Tomlin wouldn't cut him because he was afraid he might need him due to injuries.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um according to Paul Zeiss, Dupree, Bud Dupree said Harrison would leave the stadium as soon as he found out he was inactive.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: So like as soon as he walked in, like, oh, I'm inactive, all right, going home, see you guys later.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like he wouldn't even like try.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't attend practice or meetings, and Road rarely would come in the locker room.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: And he wouldn't, I guess he wouldn't visit Ryan Chazier in the hospital either.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty much par for the course with James Harrison.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um Dupree also said at the end of the day, it's he just did a lot of stuff that really wasn't Steeler like.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's no one, no one's fault on our team why he got cut.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: He cut himself.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: He came in, he didn't want to do anything that made us better.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Harrison's side of the story for balance here.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know balanced reporting to him.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um Harrison said the breaking point came after the 27-24 loss to the Patriots, a game in which he was told during the week to be ready, I'd get a lot of playing time.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if he figured if I didn't play in the biggest game of the year, that told me I wouldn't get any more snaps.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So all that lip service you gave me before didn't matter.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: It is, of course, referring to him and Tomlin.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Harrison said he went to Steelers coach Mike Tomlin, asked to be released.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Harris's uh Tomlin then said, I have to be crazy to release you.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: What if something happens with injuries?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: So what happened was a um, you know, he ended up getting cut and he actually went to the Patriots.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um the Steelers uh lost to the amazing Blake Bortles in Jacksonville in the first round.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um Harrison did play for New England, but he lost the the Philadelphia in the Super Bowl.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um he only had one tackle in the Super Bowl.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the whole playoffs he had like two tackles, so he really he didn't do much of anything.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Neither him nor Bill Belichup could figure out the Philly special.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: So those two defensive geniuses uh didn't work, didn't see that one come in, did you guys?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that this guy will take a because it this guy is pretty known to have a pretty bad like Antonio Brown.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's actually a personal personality disorder.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: This guy's just a jerk.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean that's great, and I it works for him, and it's it he's made a career out of it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: To play this game, they should have I they should have just kept them.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: They should have just kept them.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Kept them and say, you know, when you don't come here, find them.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Just make them pay for for play for free.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that um I I I feel like that's another one kind of like Franco where people were upset about it at the time, but aren't really anymore.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if they have like the 2008 Super Bowl reunion team at some point at Stadium, he'll he'll get the biggest tier, you know.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So he's he's one of those guys where people aren't gonna hold it against him too much.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: But you're right, that was his personality, and like you said, it we all loved it when he was, you know, going after the like the Cleveland or Baltimore players, but then it's like that that that's just his personality, unfortunately.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it is what it is.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and like you could say I I can kind of see his side like you know, he was coming back, he had unretired to to so that he could be used, and they did use him for quite a few years after he retired, but by that point he was just washed and they didn't you know.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Tomlin wasn't benching him to be a jerk, Tomlin was benching him because there were other guys that were more affected.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Bud Dubris, and I figured it was on the other word just way better and at that point.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So so and the the last, but well, maybe not least, not second to last, because I I kind of did this in this order to prove a point here.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll notice it's like Mike Tomlin.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think after this, these next couple people kind of figured things out last season with how to handle these people, these type of situations, and people uh the players want to act like this.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And next is one Le'Veon Bell.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was a second round pick, he was very good.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: He made the Pro Bowl, he was like a hybrid running backslash wide receiver.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: He reminded me of Thurman Thomas.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Very Thurman Thomas-like.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um when he wasn't hurt, which he unfortunately seemed to always be in the playoffs, he was very good.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: He but he didn't show up in big games.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh definitely that one AFC championship game against New England, they really, really could have used him.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the messy exit.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um on 2018, the Steelers kept franchising him for the second straight year.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um he was still getting 14.5 million, um, but he refused to find sign the franchise tag and did not attend any team activities after the contract stalled.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um he actually that season missed the first nine regular season games and then uh did not report to the Steelers prior to the deadline.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So he missed the whole season of holding out.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um on the steel on the next year, the Steelers said they're not gonna franchise him and they made him a free agent, and he he like went and became a free agent.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: So he didn't like the franchise tag basically, and he thought he could make more as a free agent.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: So um let's see, he he had actually declined an offer for 60 million in 2017, so he earned 12.12, and he didn't have any runs that went over 20 yards, so I I he really although that was the Jets deal.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, that that was the Jets deal.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers had actually offered him 70 million over five years, so he actually got less.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's how it works out.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like he strung the Steelers along saying, Oh yeah, I'm gonna play, I'm gonna play, and he like literally missed a whole year in his career that he at least could have made what 14 million dollars that year.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, not the smartest businessman in the world.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I realize running backs don't like get a tremendous like amount of running or money or have a long career, but I mean I I think I think yeah, I read somewhere he he wanted 15 million guaranteed, and he he didn't he never quite got to that number, and that's the number he wanted.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean he didn't like the franchise tag that okay, that's a problem when the next CBA comes up, tell your unit union, I guess.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it is what it is.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: If you sign a contract, you should probably at least fall through on it.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And my God, if we all have to suffer through making between twelve and fourteen million dollars a year, uh I don't know.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Can you get by on twelve million dollars a year, Tim?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Can you scrape by, cut back, you know, fairly buy the generics, you know, go to Aldi, you know.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll say this in his defense.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he he did play out his contract.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: What they were doing was your contract's up.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're gonna make you play one more year, and then we're gonna make you play one year after that.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's a ton of money for one year, but then as a running back, you get hurt or you start to wear out, and that's the end of the line, you're not gonna get a four or five-year deal after that.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So they were delaying his prime just to eke two more years out of him.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I I can see being upset about that for sure.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: But there was two two problems.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: One was like you already referenced it, Steve.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was his union that agreed to that being the roles.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: So take it up with your union, not not the Steelers.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then number two, just the way he conducted himself.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think he could have been very, very professional and because you've seen this guy's holding out, even like this this year, there was a guy for the Bears that was holding out.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you just say, hey, look, I'm you know, I've I think this is this is gonna hurt me more than help me, and here's why.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I've played out my contract, and now they want to franchise me two years ago, and I'm just not gonna do that.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love the fans, I love being here, but I'm just not gonna do that.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just wait it if they're not gonna if they're gonna franchise me, then I'll just wait it out till that's over and I'll go play somewhere else.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, no no no hard feelings.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like he could have been just all business about it.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, he did that thing where he strung them along, and his teammates were even starting to get really ticked off because they were like thinking that he was gonna be there for week one, then he wasn't.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Then it was like week five, and they're getting asked about it, and he's like, What was he doing?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh on like a jet ski in Miami or something.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like just say, just come out and say, This is what I'm gonna do, and this is why it doesn't make sense for me.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm sure there still have been a lot of fans that have been like, go, you're a football player, just play.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: But like I don't know.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't feel like people would have gotten so angry about it.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: When you're taking off your teammates, who are the people that should understand better than anybody, right?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're your brothers, they're in that with you, they have the same kind of um needs for their careers, right?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: They should be on your side.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: When your teammates are even not on your side in a contract dispute, that's when you've really screwed things up.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and the back the the rest of the story is Paul Harvey would say.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um he barely played for the Jets.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: He actually got caught cut in 2020, and the Jets paid him$28 million, and he only played in 17 games.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: It only gained like 1,300 yards.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the Jets didn't really get anything out of him.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: He went to Tampa Bay and Kansas City and did nothing there too.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if he got a did he get a Super Bowl ring either of those places?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even remember.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then he played, didn't he play for Baltimore too?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think for like one week, one or two weeks.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Steelers, on their part, had drafted James Conner, but that didn't really work out for them, mainly because the offensive line started to age out.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the Steelers eventually they cut James Connor and drafted Naj Harris.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they're on to their third replacement guy here.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully it works out, but I don't think it's gonna work out until the offensive line gets significantly better.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: You could put Jim Brown back there, and it might not matter.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So um so on to the last guy, and I think this is where Mike Tomlin has figured it out.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: He's figured out, and this is the guy that kind of proved to me that okay, Tomlin like has figured out how to handle these people, the these type of players, these type of players.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: So Melvin Ingram.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um he had a very good career as an outside linebacker with the Chargers.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: He was coming off a knee injury the season before.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: So in the offseason, the Steelers signed him to help with the defensive line and back up TJ Watt.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And they also were gonna have it was a really great idea, and it looked like it was really gonna work.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: They were gonna rotate him and TJ Watt and keep them both fresh.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, once again, I don't think this is a case where like Harrison said, Oh, they're stringing me along.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I had heard that in the media they had said that.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Steelers were right up front with this guy.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: They said, You are going to be a backup, a role player.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: So he knew what he was getting into.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the messy exit.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Ingram was actually traded to Kansas City in the middle of the season um for a Sixth round selection.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um to be, I think it was Tomlin's quote.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest with you, Melvin no longer wanted to be here.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for us, we prefer volunteers as opposed to hostages.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we believe that's a formula that really allows us to come together in ways that you can't measure.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's more a function of us and the things that we value, and less of a function of Kansas City, the things that they need or the prospects of playing them later in the season.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean that this guy, like, you know, he just started the whole locker room cancer kind of thing.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Not as bad, I think, as Harrison or like Eric Blunt.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: He just kind of said, Oh, I want to get traded or I traded.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the Tallman's credit, he said, okay, we'll trade you.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: So um, any consequences from this?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not really.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers did play him and the Chiefs in the playoffs, but Noel Vangram, he he had no effect on that game.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: The people that beat them in that game was Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelsey, and you know the other the other players on the on the Kansas City offense, uh, they got blown out 42 to 21.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was a little bit of a close game in the first half, but after the second quarter, it was pretty much over.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um that of course Tomlin now has an infamous quote: we want volunteers, not hostages.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, like I said before, I think Tomlin really figured out that, like, okay, now with the trade deadline where it is, you have to figure out like if you have one of these veteran free agents, are they going to be a team player or are they gonna be you know a problem?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're a problem, hit the bricks.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that that seems to have worked out pretty well for them last last year.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, good point.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I still there's still some skepticism in me on is it hit the bricks?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's always easier to hit the bricks when you're Melvin Ingram as opposed to I don't know, Antonio Brown in his in his prime, right?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: So so there's that.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's always been I mean that goes back to even like the coward days or the yeah, you know, if you think about like the the guys who were getting in trouble then, the Cedric Wilsons of the world that hit his girlfriend and no, we can't have that, but then Harrison James Harrison did the same thing, and it was like, well, he's just trying to take his kid to be baptized.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so so I I don't know.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess time will tell.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: But you're right, they handled that one well.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's just it's hard in sports because you have that all the time, and not all the time, I shouldn't say that, but you have that from time to time where you have players getting in trouble, and it's also hard as for us as fans to know um if somebody gets in trouble, was that just like one bad decision, or is that indicative of their personality and what they're what they're bringing to the team?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in Ingram's case, and it's sort of similar to Harrison appears before, it was more of the latter.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: They just had had enough of that, and he wasn't gonna let his team get all messed up by that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: So good for Mike Tomlin.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: So moving on from that to a to a portion of the podcast I like to call pirate incompetence.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: That'll be here, Pittsburgh Pirates.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: We could do a whole podcast called Pirate Inconfidence.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is really incompetent.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: That would be one Pat Mears.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Bump bum bum.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is like infamous on how not to run a baseball team.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was a big free agent signed by the pirates in 1999 for 15 million over four years, which doesn't sound that like that much now, but back then it was.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: So he he was really good for I think the twins for four years.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: He was a pretty good heating shortstop and not a bad fielding one either.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: But then he had one good season and he got hurt, and thing this thing just drug out for two years.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: So what happened was in the last game of exhibition, he hit a foul ball hit his hand, hit his left hand, and it damaged the bottom two fingers, making him unable to grip the bat.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, the pirates thought it was just like a sprain or a blue bruise, but it ended up being like severe damage to his hand.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, instead of like when the pirates figured out this guy couldn't come back, you've seen all the doctors, he can't come back, he can't play baseball, just give the man his money and move on with your life, right?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, nope, they fought with him for two years over because they wanted to have the insurance pay it.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who the hell cares?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Cut the guy and have the insurance fight with the insurance company.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's who you fight with, not Pat Mears.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: In that way, too, you can move on.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: You can sign another, like it was just always in limbo.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: I remember for years it was like, is Pat Mears coming back?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is Pat Mears?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was so crazy that this long contract battle lasted two years.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: He in after his injury, he only got he only batted 238 in 17 home runs in 79 RBIs.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that for their 15 million, that's all they got.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Was not a lot of performance.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: It finally ended.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: They did finally pay him his money.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: I remember Jason Kendall had a shrine to Pat Mears in the locker room, like his locker.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: They actually kept his locker in the locker room.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is how stupid it was.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the bottom line, you know, the pirates are cheap and have bad ownership.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um the bottom line to every pirate story.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is it any wonder they've only had three winning seasons over the last 40 years?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it this is just stupid.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Just cut the guy and pay him his money.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Pay him his money and move on with your life.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they just refuse to do that.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: So anything to add to that silliness, Tim?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, I I I do remember the shrine and how ridiculous that was that they had a like they made a shrine to him in the locker room.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the management made them try to make them take it down, which made it worse.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a badly managed team.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that went through two general managers.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think Cam Boniface signed him, and then Dave Littlefield ended up dealing trying to clean up the mess.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So Dave Littlefield just kind of got saddled with that.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh a next person, and I don't know, maybe you'll disagree with me on this messy exit.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you won't.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um won Barry Lamar Bonds.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um he came to the Pirates in 1986 and proceeded to become one of the best baseball players in the league.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: He never really spent any time in the minors and he hit a bunch of home runs.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: He joined the 30-30 club, he had 30 home runs and 30 stolen bases, and he won a couple of gold gloves in left field.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: That was all with the Pirates.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember what he did with the Giants later.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: So in 92, uh the Pirates tried to trade him for Alejandro Peña and Keith Mitchell, but uh Jim Leland made him keep them.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: So Bonds actually stayed with the Pirates that next year and won another MVP award.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he hit 311 with 34 home runs and 103 RBIs.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's a good hitter to him.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they actually went what happened was game seven.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: We all know he couldn't throw out Francisco, or no, he couldn't throw out Sid Bream at home plate for the game-winning run.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean then the following season he signed, he left to sign a lucrative free feat-free agent contract worth a then record 43.75 million, and that's supposedly equivalent to 82.1 million in 2021.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: That was over six years.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was the largest in baseball history.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it just like with this with Bobby Oneilla and you know Barry Bonds, it just seemed like the Pirates were in disarray, which they were going to.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it just I just think the fact that you know it ended on such a sour note, that was like the exclamation point to the to that season.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the pirates stink.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like, oh, at least we won a World Series and then everybody left.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, nope, you won in the most disappointing like move ever.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's just it that that's kind of what happened.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's also like Barry Bonds is very much a jerk.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's been described as arrogant, rude, moody.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think the the paper, even the the Pittsburgh media voted him most despised pirate.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: So um he he's not he's not that well loved, but um he was a really good baseball player.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, I I do agree it was a messy exit.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and to your point, it wasn't just that he left because the same year he left, Doug Draybick left, who was our Cy Young award-winning ace pitcher.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: And no one would remember that as a messy.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people weren't happy that he left, but that was just the way things were going in baseball at that point.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it wasn't just that he left, it was that he just people were people were tired of him already by his last year because of all the antics and all the, like you said, kind of sour comments and everything else.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: But everybody was mostly willing to overlook that because he was just so talented.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then when he um and then when he couldn't throw out Sid Bream, it was like, okay, then what's the point?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: What's the point if you c you know if you can't and then he he always not only it wasn't just not throwing out Sid Bream, it was that he always choked in the playoffs every year.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so again, like what's the what's the point if if you can hit 40 home runs or whatever, but then you you get into the clutch part of the season you can't win anything for us.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was just messy, and and the fact that Bonds wasn't a likable person, even a little bit, just made that definitely didn't help.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you know, the Pirates, they haven't been competitive for 20 years after that.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: They had three good years and now they've gone back to losing all the time.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Bonds did hit 73 home runs in the season and broke Hank Aaron's record for what it's worth.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: So yep, all natural too.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: Just totally, you know what?
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you threw a spitball in the before it was illegal, does that make your strikeouts count any less?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying steroids were not illegal.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: He did not break any rules doing what he did.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that is so moving on to another guy that probably would have been better staying here.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: We'll call this the pit football section of the podcast.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that would be one Walt Harris.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we did a whole 2004 episode on it on this season, but he was hired in '97 to turn around the pit football program.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: It had only won 12 games in four seasons, Tim.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like when you say that out loud, it's like even worse than I remember.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: But he what he did do is he did turn them into a respectable team.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: They had gone to Liberty Bowl, they had beat Phillip Rivers in the Tangerine Bowl, and um, they had a good season uh against uh they'd won the Insight.com Bowl, too.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whoever insight.com is now these days, I'm not sure.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: But um they had a very magical 2004 season.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: But what had happened was in October, his um his agent had said that Pitt is not a major power, it is not one of the top 20 jobs in the country, and so you know Harris didn't like contradict those comments because I think those were Harris's thoughts.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what happened was he had not I know a lot of his players didn't like him, and the last straw I think with the fans was when he had Tyler Pauco slide to set up a field goal, and they're playing Yukon.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: It would just like started playing Division I college football like yesterday, you know.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it was not a good look.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even though he he actually ended up winning a Big East co-champions there that year, and at the end of the season, they made their first, and I think that's still their only BCS bowl.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um they they let him go.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um, they let him and he actually went to Stanford, he did get a job at Stanford.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the aftermath, um, university hired Dave Wonstadt, and he pretty much suffered the same issues as Harris.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: He was like they were always mediocre, not terrible, but they were never really able to have a breakout season.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so you know they would they would go on Pitt as a program would go on to have like another like what 20 coaches in two seasons before they finally settled on Pet Narduzy.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um Walt Harris for his part, he only lasted two seasons at Stanford.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: He was terrible there.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: His second year he only had one win.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: He's not had another head coaching job since, and he's not been anywhere as a coach at all.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: He was a Cal U, and I remember this as an offensive coordinator in 2010.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um, in an interview with Ron Cook in 2008, Harris stated that our record at Pitt is what it is.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very proud of it.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very proud of some of the other things we did there.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Our graduation rate, keeping the off-field problems to a minimum.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think Walt Harris just kind of got him back to respectability, but for whatever reason, he could just never quite put it all together, and then he kind of shot off his mouth in the press, and the university got mad at him.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: So anything uh to add to the Walt Harris messy debacle there.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think what made it messy was that he criticized the university in public, and you don't you don't see that very often.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good that's a good one.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, we did a whole episode about that, so go back and listen if you haven't, because there was a lot to that story, and it was almost it was just odd that after their best season that's that's when they let him go, but that was just kind of how things took out.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: So not definitely not a clean exit.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right, sticking with the theme of uh Pitt football coaches leaving, um uh this would be uh one Dr.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um he was born in Cooper Angus, Scotland, in 1915.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: He actually played for Pitt from 1915 to 1917, and the 1917 team was known as the fighting dentists.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that wasn't because like you get your teeth knocked out, that was because they are a bunch of dentists.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's frightening two opponents.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they do say what's the difference between a sadist and a dentist, right?
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh wow, I I shouldn't probably go to the dentist for a while after that comment.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Dr.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland um gra actually graduated from the Pitt School of Dentistry.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he actually is a doctor.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um he was he was an all-American under coach Pop Warner, and he played for Pitt.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um during uh his team his uh tenure, Pitts uh teams uh won all kinds of championships.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um they also appeared in four Rolls Bowl games, and they did turn down a bowl for the 1938 Rolls Bowl because I guess it wasn't enough money or something.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: They were named national champions uh uh several different times, but the university only recognizes uh I think five of those.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um he had a dream backfield with uh Marshall Goldberg.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um they say it rivals the four horsemen of Notre Dame.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as of 2009, his uh career coaching record is 144, 28, and 14, and that's at 812 winning percentage, and that's still the 25th best of all college football.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: So he he's really he was a really excellent coach.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's also tied for 23rd fewest games to reach 100 victories.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um just like I said, he's a very excellent coach.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what was the ass he exit?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, towards the end of this time and usual pitfast and southern, he found himself at odds with the university administration.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the chancellor gentleman named John Gabbard Bauman.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is never trust a man with three names, Tim.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Lee Harvey Azwild, Mark David Chapman.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's bad, it's trouble, right?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: John Wayne Gacy, right, right now.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: Not that they're this guy is a murderous person of any type, except for on the athletic department, figuratively.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he wanted the lesson to focus on athletics.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: So as a result, a new set of guidelines for athletics was developed which stated that the school would not recruit students to play sports.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: That might be a problem.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um the rumors of him leaving everywhere.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a New York Times article.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: I even found something in the Cornell newspaper about it.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, why the Cornell student newspaper wrote an article on it, I'm not sure, but um, they did.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so um in March of 39, Southern announced he had uh asked the university to accept his resignation, and they did.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I think he like actually I heard a story like he put the letter down and then had wanted to take it back, but he didn't.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um, there's apparently still the university has a letter from a young boy who threatened to jump off a building downtown if Dr.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: Southern did not return to coaching.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um people took pit football.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Who knew people took pit football that seriously way back when, huh, Tim?
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the two things two things are you never see today.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like one one, someone caring that much about football, and then and then two, man, talk about like a short-sighted uh athletic director.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just you know, like you look at what college football is today and all the conference realignments and the NIL deals.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Well, we're not gonna really recruit.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is an academic institution.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, that was that was very short-sighted.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what happens to pit football?
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: They go on to not be very good, surprise, surprise, until 1955.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: They hired John Mikeloson, who I think played for Dr.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he took them to the Easter Championship, and they were respectable for a while.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they would not win another championship until 1976 under Johnny Majors.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for Dr.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland, he coached a football team called the New York Dodgers, and this was the football team, not the baseball team.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then in early 1940, at the age of 53, he went to World War II.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: And he he served in the Navy and actually became a lieutenant commander in the Navy at 53.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: Unreal.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um after the war was over, he actually ended up coaching the Steelers, which we covered on the Dark Ages, and he got them to their only playoff game of that era, actually, until 1972.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know if anybody reads read or have heard of Grantlin Rice.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard of him.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's considered one of the greatest sports writers of that age.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: He described Dr.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland as Scotland's greatest football son.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, was Scotland a great football producing nation?
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but um that's an interesting way to describe him.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh unfortunately uh he met his tragic end.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: He was on a scouting trip and he found out passed out in his car in Kentucky.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: He'd actually died of a brain hemorrhage in a hospital in Cairo, Illinois.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: But um, Dr.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland, probably the greatest coach in pit football history.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's pretty hard to argue with that.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: Him and Pop Warner, Johnny Majors, I don't know, Pat Narduzzi?
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, probably not.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: But um, that's your top three or four for pit football.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I bet not a lot of people probably knew about that.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: That was definitely a very messy exit for all involved.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just man, just pit pit has such a long history of just hitting themselves in the foot.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're they're kind of like the Cleveland Browns of the collegiate ranks.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good that's a good comparison.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um moving back to the Steelers, um Bill Dudley.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um Dudley was a first-round draft pick in 1942.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: He was nicknamed Bullet Bill, and um he was only 5'10, 182 pounds, but he had won the league's rushing rushing, I guess his rookie year was 696 yards.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he actually was another guy who was part of his career.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: He left for football because of World War II.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: He was a B-25 and B-29 pilot in the Pacific, so wow.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um he returned back in 1945 because the war is over.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: We don't need people to drop bombs on Japan anymore.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he's back in the Steelers uniform and he came back and had two pretty good years.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he really liked the Roonies and stuff.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what happened was um Dr.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: Southern once again comes back to play here.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: He is now coaching the Steelers, and actually he had a really good career because he featured this single wing and it really worked for um you know Bill Dudley.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, for some reason, like I guess Sutherland was very strict disciplinarian, and Dudley kind of thought knew what he was doing.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_01: So they they had a feud and um Dudley requested a trade, and um finally the Roonies traded him.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that you know, it just he just kept like stirring stuff up and like he thought he knew better than Dr.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland, you know.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, this guy only won like a million championships at Pitt.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know the single wing was still a little antiquated probably in 1947, but it still probably worked in the NFL, obviously.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just you know, the guy just couldn't get along.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: But even after that, I mean it it well like ended up he like really liked the Steelers, and um you know his quote he gave a Quote here, the Rooney family.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: I knew Mr.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: Rooney well.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um he said, I only played there three years, but the family was so unique, and I know they still are.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's a family organization, first class, all business, no messing around.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what happened to Bulletville?
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he he ended up getting traded to Detroit and then to Washington.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: He actually made the NFL Hall of Fame in 1966.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: He actually coached and scouted for the Steelers under Keesling, and I guess that would have been the 60s, I'm thinking.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: 50s and 60s.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Steelers stunk due to losing him and Sutherland.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was another, like back then they just couldn't catch a break.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: Good old bullet bill.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: They just couldn't get along.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny, I mean, like you Le'Veon Bell, and here you have, you know, decades before that, you had a sort of a similar thing where couldn't couldn't get along with the coach and the ownership.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I I believe teammates uh reportedly his teammates also said he was kind of a locker room cancer because he was very much he he was the smartest guy in the room and made sure everybody knew he was the smartest guy in the room, one of those.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: But like yeah, like he's like contradicting the coach, and it's not like it's some rookie coach or somebody like Walt Keisling who literally doesn't know what they're doing.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, the Dr.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sutherland had won a lot of football games, so I I would kind of take his word for it.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: But um, and now last but not least, our messy exit.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe people might not say this.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I think this applies to Pittsburgh.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say Miami, Virginia Tech, and Boston College leaving the Big East, which leads to Pitt leaving a few years later.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think Pitt's like exit was as messy as these guys, but um so the Big East, uh, it was a basketball conference.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it still is, and it was basically a basketball conference that had some teams that played football.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: And one of those teams is Miami, and they're just a few years removed from winning a national championship in 2001.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: They almost won, they should have won in 2002, but unfortunately Willis McGahey got hurt early in that game, and then they got totally hosed on a questionable pass interference call.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember that, Tim.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: That was horrible.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: That was a bad call.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the messy exit, uh, Miami wants to make more money to keep up with their in-state rivals, Florida State and Florida, and they're having trouble doing that in the Big East because the Big East doesn't have a championship game.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: And also playing Temple every year in football probably doesn't help.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the ACC, for their part, was looking to expand and get a championship game for its conference.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: And here's like something totally stupid.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: The NCAA had a rule that you needed 12 members to have a conference championship game.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the whole motivation is to get a championship game.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you need 12?
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Who cares?
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: Who cares how you decide?
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, it's got to be fair, you know.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was just dumb.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was a dumb rule, and that's really what part of the reason, unless they're using it as an excuse for all this, just to you know, realign and make more money.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: But if this is like the motivator, it's it's the dumbest thing ever.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, maybe this is just an excuse for the teams to hunt money.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the NCAA created this mess.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: And let me digress and say, when I say the NCAA, it's easy to say like they're like the FBI or the IRS or the NSA, you know, like some shadowy government agency.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know who makes up and runs the NCAA?
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: Who?
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: That would be college presidents.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the college presidents, the people that run the colleges can't figure this out.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: These guys have PhDs and can't figure this out.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or don't want to figure this out.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't know.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they just, you know, these are supposedly the smartest people in their society, and they can't run a football con uh football league.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Good job, you know.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh just the conference championship games were born at the Division II level in the 80s, and then they ended up, you know, going up to the SEC because they wanted to have a super conference.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So when they had invited South Carolina, Arkansas, so that's kind of how this all got rolling.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And this stupid rule about 12 football members, but actually was re-in it was actually revoked in 2016 so the Big 12 could have its championship game with only 10.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how important that stupid rule was.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the ACC, they had actually studied expansion for more than 18 months, and the teams they originally wanted were Miami, Syracuse, and Boston College.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: But they it didn't happen because Virginia's president see once again, this is the people who really run thing.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_01: He was pressured by state because the Virginia people wanted Virginia Tech, not who was at Syracuse, because then you would have a Virginia Virginia Tech game.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess Virginia Tech, and Virginia Tech I think ended up suing, but dropped it because they got let in.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the teams ultimately invited were Miami, Virginia Tech, and Boston College.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it's just it was a joke.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I remember being really ticked off about this at the time because everybody was like, oh, the big E sucks, the biggie sucks, and then it's like, oh, we suck so much, you want all our teams, you know?
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just it was just really was a money, a money thing, and that that's really happened.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you can blame Donna Shalela.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think she was in the Clinton administration and then found a nice cussy job as president of Miami, or though she thought.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: She'd get wrapped up in all this mess.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But so the ACC gets his 12 teams eventually and gets his conference game.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so eventually this starts the ball rolling till Pitt leaves in 2011.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Pitt's is a little more like more smooth because there had been more going on.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: They just paid an extra 5 million.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_01: They actually paid extra money to leave early.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So and it's funny, here's a quote.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's a guy in Louisville when Pitt left in 2011, he said, Oh, Mark Nordenberg has violated the trust of the rest of the conference members and called the matter slippery.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what the punchline to all that is?
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Louisville joined the ACC in 2014.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm offended by all this, sir.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, can I join?
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the worst, I think this is like the worst.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like WVU got left out and now has to play Texas, Tech, and Lubbock.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because that's that's like a natural rival for West Virginia.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, so what's the big fallout from this?
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Miami has basically gone into oblivion.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they have they won an ACC championship.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they I don't even know if they've been in the ACC championship game.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even sure they won an ACC championship.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know Virginia Tech has been in a couple ACC championship games.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think they won one.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Pitt finally did win its ACC conference championship in 2021.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, the mess we're in now is Pitt beat WVU in 2008 and the infamous 13-9.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: That kind of put the nail in the coffin for the Big East.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then more alignment has rehappened because of all this.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that this like has led to more and more messy exits.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, USC and UCLA are in the Big Ten, and Texas and Oklahoma have moved the SEC.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_01: What if we could go back in our time machine and go to 2003?
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I walked up to you in 2003, Tim, and I said, in 2022, USC and UCLA will be in the Big Ten, and Texas and Oklahoma will be in the SEC.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: What would you have done?
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_01: You would have laughed.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_00: The whole thing's I I don't get it.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't understand how it's good for any of the fans.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But people just chug along.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, yay.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's USC is gonna play Penn State every year.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not the worst part.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: College football sucks, and it's because of the university presidents, and they just could never figure out how to come up with a regular season schedule and a postseason, and also how to share all the money so that you could have a competitive and compelling games that fans want to see.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it really isn't that hard.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So now you have Pitt playing North Carolina and Duke in football.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're going to have UCLA play Indiana.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds like a great basketball game, doesn't it, Tim?
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Guess what?
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna play in football.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Who the hell cares about that game?
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think the people from UCLA or Indiana care about that game.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the problem, is that they always said, oh, we have the most meaningful regular season.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are you sure about that?
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because I guarantee you that game's gonna happen at some point in the near future, or USC versus Northwestern, or Purdue versus UCLA, or you know, any Iowa, even Iowa and USC.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, come on.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be the it'd be the equivalent of like, I don't know, if all the if if the the NFC East like pillage teams from the AFC South or something, right?
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it it you're right, it should have just been one big organized conference, or conference, one big organized sport, and the conferences just should have been regional.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's how they were.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: That makes the most sense because like Pitt and West Virginia could both have five wins, but that game means something because it's a rivalry.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and the and and the Big Ten used to be, you know, like this region of schools that were kind of all in that like rust belt area.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what happens when Maryland has to go to LA to play USC or UCR?
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_00: But they will because it just it again, it like you said, it should have just been it was it was an easy enough thing to do.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_00: No one ever bothered to do it, and now it's just everybody for themselves, and they're hyper focused on which conference has the most revenue and how can we oh no, now we're third.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_00: ACC is now third, so now what either either the ACC has to pillage schools or they're gonna be pillaged, and it's like, man, what a what a oh I I just it's really, really hard to care anymore.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it just it's like like my dad said that years ago, like when Pitts started playing Duke in North Carolina or like who else do they play?
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like Georgia Tech, no offense.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who cares?
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Who cares about any of those games?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure there's gonna be Pac-10 fans, you know, UCLA fans that are gonna say the same thing.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I have to play, you know, pick because it's either gonna be Rutgers or Maryland or Indiana or Purdue.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_01: That that's that's your four, you're gonna have to play one of those four teams.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean it they've ruined the sport, and only the way that like and these are supposedly the smartest people in the country, and you can't even run a football conference.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: It like a football league, it really isn't that hard.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_01: It really, really isn't.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's enough of me soapboxing.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if there's any messy exits I forgot, uh check us out on Facebook and Twitter.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, please uh like and follow us uh so we can get more uh people listening.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so me and Tim don't have our messy exit from our own podcast here.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But thanks for listening.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we appreciate everybody uh listening and uh have a great one.