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Discernment is Not a Solo Mission: John Lewis on Forming Christian Communities · Future Christian

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  Loren Richmond Jr (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Loren Richmond Jr (00:18) Today, Martha Tatarnic welcomes John Lewis to the show. John Lewis is the theologian at residence for the Iona Collaborative at Seminary of the Southwest, where he teaches online and in-person continuing education courses in New Testament and congregational leadership. He previously served as the seminary's director and
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  lecturer in New Testament and spirituality. John is also co-director of the St. Benedict's Workshop, a non-profit ministry he founded in 2001 to help Christian communities use scripture to practice discipleship and discernment in all areas of daily life. Lewis is the author of Discernment in the Early Church and Today and Looking for Life, the role of theoethical reasoning in Paul's religion. He holds a Doctor of Philosophy in New Testament from University of Oxford and a Master of Divinity
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  degree with honors from Virginia Theological Seminary. Prior to his ordination in the Episcopal Church, John was a trial lawyer in San Antonio, Texas. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with Lauren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. You can send us an email at loren at ResonateMediaPro.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. Your
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  support and voice mean a lot to us in making this podcast possible. Martha Tatarnic (01:55) to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic and I'm really happy today to be joined by Dr. John Lewis. Welcome, John. It's great to have you on the podcast. John Lewis (02:08) Thank you, Martha. I'm happy to be here. Martha Tatarnic (02:11) Great, well we're going to introduce you a little bit to our listeners and then we'll get into the core topic of today's
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  conversation. But maybe you can start by sharing with all of us a little bit about your faith journey, what that has looked like in the past and what that looks like today. John Lewis (02:29) be glad to. First of all, I'm a lifelong Episcopalian, which is Anglican, ⁓ but I really didn't ⁓ take that as seriously as I do now. I was socialized to succeed ⁓ autonomously in our world of meritocracy, and I accomplished that success as a trial lawyer fairly quickly. Martha Tatarnic (02:52) Hmm. John
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  Lewis (03:00) but came to realize that I really wasn't finding the peace and joy that I really anticipated that that kind of success would bring about. So, knowing not where to turn except back to church, I then began to take more seriously my life of faith. And over time that led 30 plus years ago to... a small community that helped me discern a call to ordination in the Episcopal Church. I pursued that and then yet again another small community at my seminary helped me discern a call to do
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  PhD work, which I pursued. And then the last 25 years I've been in San Antonio, Texas really teaching ⁓ and facilitating other people in the practice of small group discernment. And that's what brings me here today, was the book that I recently published to reflect on that experience with everyone. Martha Tatarnic (04:11) Okay, well just hold that thought because we are going to get into all of that in a big way, but I just have to comment on a few of the parts of your background that I can
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  definitely relate to and listeners will know I can relate to. But I'm an almost lifelong Anglican myself and I was convinced that I was going to be a lawyer until I got interrupted by a really nagging and inconvenient call to ministry, but ⁓ I'm grateful for almost every minute of it. John Lewis (04:47) That's lovely. Well, I might add that the priest in my church, when I graduated from college, tried to convince me to go to seminary and I was so headstrong in pursuing a law career that I
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  think I probably laughed in the meeting. And so he got had a good laugh 17 years later when this Martha Tatarnic (05:06) Hahaha John Lewis (05:17) turn and change of events happen. Martha Tatarnic (05:19) Yeah, God nabbed you. Yeah, yeah, I, the the piece around the meritocracy too, I just like I really keenly relate to what you said about that. I think that that yeah, there's a particular referendum that can come to John Lewis (05:21) Yeah, finally. Martha Tatarnic (05:44) those of us who
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  do succeed in that meritocracy in a particular way and realize that ⁓ that doesn't fill us either, you know? It's easy to think that it will and it doesn't necessarily. John Lewis (06:02) Well, you know, my parents really trained me for the whole time I was at home. This is what it takes to move ahead in the world and I pretty much bought into it. I had to learn from my experience that that was less good advice than I would now recognize. Martha Tatarnic (06:14) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, why
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  wouldn't you, you know? Yeah, yeah, but pretty common sense advice in lots of ways. So yeah, thank you for so candidly sharing all of that. It's lot that I connect with there. So is there a spiritual practice that you are finding particularly meaningful right now? John Lewis (06:42) Yes, it sounds like it. Thank you. Well, ⁓ you probably already have guessed the answer to that, but the last 30 years, small group spiritual discernment has been the life-giving means for me and many of the
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  people I've subsequently worked with. And so I still participate in several groups a week and they are friends in Christ, vulnerable to one another. Martha Tatarnic (06:57) Yeah. John Lewis (07:21) and I've learned many things from them ⁓ and with them. that's my essential spiritual practice. Of course, I do other things as well, but that's what I hold most dear, are those deliberations with other trusted friends. Martha Tatarnic (07:41) He he. Yeah, well, that is an excellent segue into our
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  main topic today, which as we've hinted about now in a couple of different ways, is this wonderful book that I don't think you can see on the screen because of the sunlight, but it is Discernment in the Early Church and Today, Reclaiming Paul's Vision for Formation and Community Buildings. So that is what we're going to be focusing our conversation on today. ⁓ I think that it is fair to say that you offer a really deep dive into a very theological and in a lot of ways academic and I don't mean
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  academic in, ⁓ know, like you really take seriously the original ⁓ Greek. ⁓ You really help the reader to get into the nuances of ⁓ understanding the context and the original language of Paul's writing. ⁓ So you give us that deep dive into considering Paul's writings. And at the same time, I think that you do so with the expectation that this is not just a dry academic exercise. It's not just sort of an interesting thought experiment, ⁓ that this is like critically relevant for us today. So
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  why don't we start ⁓ with that deep dive? Maybe you could just share with our listeners in this very serious consideration of Paul's life and writings, what would you say has been most overlooked about Paul or misunderstood about Paul or missed about Paul? John Lewis (09:37) Yeah, it's a great question. ⁓ First of all, think traditionally we've seen and understood Paul as what we might call today a systematic theologian who's really focused on lots of theological ideas and we construct all
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  sorts of theological ⁓ maxims by pulling out some of what he says. And I just think honestly that's almost a perversion of what he was doing. He's a pastor first and foremost who is modeling for people and teaching them how to live Jesus Christ in their ordinary lives with the expectation that living that life not only brings them new life but Martha Tatarnic (10:11) Hmm. John Lewis (10:31) They become channels of a life-giving power of God in the lives of others. And that's the essence,
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  that's the goal, I would say, of the worship structure that Paul sets up for his early churches. He wants to form people over time in the image of Jesus, and he wants to form a community of people who... ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (10:47) Hmm. John Lewis (10:57) understand that they practice the same Christlike care for one another in that community. And I am always mindful of ⁓ a point that ⁓ Christer Stendahl made. And Christer Stendahl was a Swedish bishop who was also dean of Harvard Divinity
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  School back in the 1950s and 60s. And he always made the point that ⁓ We come to understand Christianity in two sometimes two ways that are in tension with one another. Some people understand Christianity as being about a message. ⁓ Others understand it as about building and living ⁓ in communities together. And I think Paul was clearly of the second form there. He was forming communities of people. Martha Tatarnic (11:39) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (11:55) that would overcome and break down the
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  social hierarchies that often divided people. And so I think we miss that by not understanding that Pastor Paul was in the process of teaching people how to live in ways that broke down the hierarchical structure. Martha Tatarnic (12:17) Yeah, yeah, I just a few things I want to pick up about in there. ⁓ Because I think that that does come across so clearly in your writing, the way that you articulate just how deeply Paul knew the communities that he was writing to that, you know, each of his
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  letters is written to a very specific context and community within the bonds of relationship. Like he's not just writing abstract theology, he's writing to people that he knows in response to actual issues that they are living. I think that's the first piece. And the second piece that I was really struck by right from the beginning of your book is that contrast between like, is it a message that we're primarily about or is it a relationship that we're primarily about? like it's not John Lewis
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  (13:12) Yeah, that's good. Martha Tatarnic (13:13) so much about believing that ⁓ in the power of God's resurrection as knowing how that power of resurrection is living in me, like how God is actually at work in me and in us. I really appreciated that calling us back to that central good news. John Lewis (13:38) Indeed. And you know, to go one step further, I think what we miss often is the importance of the role of experience in human life. Because as you say, what Paul's really about is
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  helping people come to know and experience that life-giving power. And he's clearly persuaded, as I am, that ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (14:01) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (14:07) It's the experience of God's power that really ⁓ persuades people to entrust themselves to Christ's way of life. I can listen to wonderful sermons and always take something good from them, but what I would say is it's the experience of God's power in my life in relationship with others. Martha Tatarnic (14:18) Mm-hmm. John Lewis
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  (14:34) that persuades me to be courageous enough to live Christ's way of life, notwithstanding the pushback from lots of people around me. Martha Tatarnic (14:44) Yeah, yeah. And that makes sense and makes sense, particularly in the context of Paul's writings as well, ⁓ being a follower of Jesus came with significant risk. Like, why would you put yourself in that sort of tension with the culture around you unless there is an experience that's so compelling that you can't ignore it? ⁓ You're
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  not going to do that for an abstract idea. John Lewis (15:13) Absolutely. And you know what's really interesting, I think, in Paul's first letter to Corinth? There are clearly some people in the background who are doubting resurrection from the dead. He doesn't really get to that until near the end of the letter, but the entire letter is reminding them of how often they've experienced that life-giving power in a variety of ordinary settings. Martha Tatarnic (15:41) Yeah. John Lewis (15:42)
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  And by the time he gets to the end of the letter, he essentially says, with all those experiences of God's power, how can you doubt that resurrection after death is real? And, you know, think a lot of modern people probably have a question mark over that idea of resurrection. And I think that's where we can help one another build up the confidence. by seeing that power at work day in and day out in very ordinary and often very mundane circumstances. Martha Tatarnic (16:17) Yeah, truly, truly.
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  Okay, well, I have kind of a chicken and egg question about the inspiration for this book. So I'm interested, was it that studying Paul led you to create this small group discernment model? Or was the small group discernment model kind of the impetus for studying Paul and writing the book? how did, which was the chicken, which was the egg? John Lewis (16:46) Yeah, that's great question and it may have two parts to the answer, but ⁓ you know, because I grew up the way I did, learning how to be
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  successful autonomously, it was the ⁓ first my spiritual director back 40 years ago, ⁓ my work with her, and then my work with a small community of discernment. Martha Tatarnic (16:51) Okay. John Lewis (17:13) for ordination and then another small community at the seminary for doing doctoral work, I finally realized that, this idea of ⁓ a small Christian community doing discernment is a real key to the life of faith. So ⁓ I pitched my PhD project as looking at Paul's theology and ethics and
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  how he built communities. So it started with my experience of the power of communal discernment. But then my first book 25 years ago was ⁓ my PhD dissertation, which was all about the practice of spiritual discernment in Paul's churches. Martha Tatarnic (17:50) Hmm. John Lewis (18:09) That was the academic, mean the truly higher level academic book. But when I got to, came back to Texas 25 years ago, to start, I came back to start a new ministry to people in the workplace. I mean that was
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  really, you know, having been a lawyer and ⁓ thinking that faith in law practice and in business practice is a good thing. Martha Tatarnic (18:25) Hmm, interesting. John Lewis (18:38) I came back to do a ministry to people in the workplace, but one of my original nonprofit board members said to me, ⁓ we don't know how to build this. Why don't you try to incarnate Paul's ministry? You've studied it in such depth. Why don't you try to incarnate Paul's ministry in what you're doing? And that was
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  the seed that was planted 25 years ago. And so, ⁓ you know, I had the immediate thought of, didn't I think of that? But you know, that just shows the role of the community in helping to call forth vocations. Anyway, so I went about that and I thought, I've just published, or I'm publishing a book on spiritual discernment. We need to make that the centerpiece for everything. So we began to gather groups of people. really invite, we didn't really gather them, we sent out invitations and people
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  began to join these groups to reflect together on how to live Christ in all sorts of ordinary contexts. And that was my understanding of Paul's deliberative communities that he built. He put disparate groups of people together to reflect on how to live Christ together. Martha Tatarnic (19:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah. John Lewis (20:06) So that was the inspiration for my ministry. 25 years later, I finally got to a point where a dear friend said to me, you're approaching retirement. Is there anything
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  else you need to do so that you can ⁓ live out the rest of your life in peace, having done what you thought you needed to do? And this book was that that one final piece that I really needed to write in order to pass on the experience of so many people over these last 25 years in recognizing the power and the importance of this practice. Martha Tatarnic (20:51) Well, I think it's pretty on the nose in a really lovely way that ⁓ the ways in which that community has shaped this project and
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  shaped that work. ⁓ that, yeah, that's kind of amazing how those different voices have obviously been so important in guiding this process and this offering. ⁓ So why don't we talk a little bit about what ⁓ what that discerning community, what those small groups actually look like and what they consist of. Why don't we start with Paul? ⁓ And maybe you can just share a little bit about the context in which discernment was taking place in Paul's communities. I'm particularly interested in the two
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  stage dinner party. I think that's a lovely title for it. ⁓ John Lewis (21:44) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (21:47) And what were some of the concrete issues that Paul and his fellow Christ followers were wrestling with? John Lewis (21:54) Sure. Well, interestingly enough, the two-stage dinner party had its roots in Greek philosophy. And Plutarch and other philosophers of Paul's era wrote about ⁓ how the dinner party, a two-stage dinner party structure, was used ⁓ to break down ⁓ hierarchical
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  differences. Martha Tatarnic (22:04) Hmm. John Lewis (22:24) and ⁓ form a partnership among the people who came together. They first shared a meal, a common meal, and then that was followed by a time of, in the culture it was followed by a time of entertainment, music, dancing, drinking, ⁓ all the activities ⁓ that would spin out from that. But the philosophers and the synagogues adapted that practice of the post meal entertainment and turned it into a time for moral conversation. And so, ⁓
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  for instance, in the philosophical schools, ⁓ after the meal, the teacher of a particular philosophy would then, ⁓ almost always he and the students would deliberate on how to live that philosophical point of view. Martha Tatarnic (23:03) Hmm. John Lewis (23:25) And that was just a common part of the culture. Paul took that and adapted it for use in these new Christ communities that he began to put together. ⁓ in fact, he even chose the name that we often recognize the word Ecclesia, ⁓ that
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  it's always translated in your New Testament as church. Martha Tatarnic (23:54) Right. John Lewis (23:55) But in fact, the Ecclesia was the group of people called out in a city to deliberate together on the norms and the values and how that city would live out ⁓ its common life together. So he chose a word that already was known to his Greek congregants. And he established The Lord's Supper meal, I mean obviously he's drawing on the tradition of Jesus' last meal, but it's a common meal where
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  people from rich to poor all gather to share the same food, which was actually breaking down some of the cultural barriers ⁓ between the rich and the poor. And then after the meal ended, ⁓ we know that in that Martha Tatarnic (24:28) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (24:53) cultural practice after the meal ended, the host would pass around a cup of wine that signified the end of the meal and the transition to the new second part of the meeting, part of the gathering, which would be entertainment socially,
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  but in the synagogues and in these new Christ communities, it was the time for moral deliberation. How do we live Jesus Christ in our lives? So it was a time for speaking ⁓ gently and carefully to one another about seeing where God was at work in various Christ-like actions in the community, and sometimes being careful to do it gently, but to say some of your actions are leading to ⁓ chaos and destruction in our common life. And so it was the way Martha Tatarnic (25:50) Mm-hmm. John Lewis
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  (25:52) Paul established a practice for building trust, building vulnerability, and building people into the image of Jesus Christ. So two stages of a dinner party. if you're curious about where best to look for that, if you go read 1 Corinthians chapters, really chapters 10 through 14, you see him dealing with Martha Tatarnic (26:06) You're funny. John Lewis (26:22) first issues happening at the meal and after that ⁓ issues happening in the moral conversation after the meal. It's very clear
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  when you go read those chapters you'll see that structure emerge quite naturally. ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (26:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah, isn't that interesting. So how does that translate in discerning communities that you're part of today, that you lead today? Do you structure them in a similar way? How does Paul's shape you? John Lewis (26:59) Yeah. Thank you. That's a good question. ⁓ First of all, I may sound like I'm backtracking, but we don't start with a meal. These groups we put together often were
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  people coming before work at seven o'clock in the morning or after work. ⁓ And so a meal was really ⁓ left for people to do on their own. Martha Tatarnic (27:18) Right. John Lewis (27:29) We picked up and began with the post meal deliberations about how to live faithfully in the world. And what that meant was ⁓ each time we gather, ⁓ one or two people will come and present an event that's underway in their life, ⁓ from the smallest of things to sometimes the most profound of things going on in
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  their life. The point is always you come to tell an event and get ⁓ the input of the other participants and their use of Scripture to stimulate your imagination for how Christ might come alive in you in the ⁓ event you've presented. And so once you explain to the group what's going on, Martha Tatarnic (28:13) Hmm. John Lewis (28:28) We take a period of silence and people find biblical passages that they think bear some analogy to the situation presented ⁓ by the group participant. So we go
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  around and we read the stories and the person presenting the particular scripture reading will explain, here's the connection I see to your event. and might even say, ⁓ if I was in a similar situation, this biblical passage ⁓ would shape my response this way. so ⁓ the presenter gets lots of different input on what Christ coming alive in the event in his or her life might look like. ⁓ Usually that person will then Martha Tatarnic (29:11) Right. John Lewis (29:27) go away ⁓ and come back the
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  next week or whenever something consequential has happened from how they engage the event. And will tell us the consequences of what that person chose to do, how it played out, did it bear fruit, did it not bear fruit, did it cause further conflict. And so that process with that person will start over again. Martha Tatarnic (29:54) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (29:55) What you can see happening over a period of time is our lives become intertwined. We know one another's life settings. We ⁓ are able to
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  listen more closely to people's, individuals' concerns. We know their relationships. It's just really a way we form these small communities of care by meeting weekly. with regularity. Martha Tatarnic (30:26) And so ⁓ these small group communities, are like ongoing relationships. It's not that you meet for six months or something and then disband. It's a ⁓ longer... John Lewis (30:41) It's a longer, you know, I'm going to say for most people, it's seasonal, but understanding seasonal in a long
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  arc. Because all of us have things happen in our lives where we can't go meet regularly every week for a period of time. But I can tell you right now, I have two groups that have reformed after life events. Martha Tatarnic (30:52) Right. John Lewis (31:10) ended the group a few years ago and we've now reformed these two groups. ⁓ yes, it's over time. What we do though when we have a new person join the group is to say, it a try for six weeks. And if this works for you, then please continue.
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  But we allow people to opt out if they think this is just not Martha Tatarnic (31:29) Right. John Lewis (31:40) something beneficial to me. But I can tell you in 25 years, we seldom have anyone opt out. Because after six times of doing this work, one begins to see how formative it is on the one hand, but how beneficial for dealing with all sorts of daily life issues. I mean, what we end up often saying is we do have Martha Tatarnic (31:47) right John Lewis (32:11) people who don't have as
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  many crises in their lives because they see them coming long before the fire of a crisis starts to burn. And the group helps one another recognize that kind of potential. Martha Tatarnic (32:21) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's amazing. ⁓ I was really curious and this has been sitting with me since reading your book. ⁓ So much of the discernment that seems to take place in ⁓ Paul's writings is around how this newly formed Christian community is going to be in relationship with. the political powers
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  around them. ⁓ And again, I think you do a really good job of sorting out the particular context of each of the communities, but how to get along with the Roman Empire seems to be an overarching place of concern ⁓ for obvious reasons. like, how do you see the relationship between church and politics today? ⁓ I mean, politics is a pretty live conversation in North America right now. And the relationship between church and politics is a fraught one. How does that play into the discerning
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  communities that you're part of today? John Lewis (33:33) Yeah, yeah. Well, let me just say that, ⁓ first of all, just in the last 15 months, that has become a more important issue and a more challenging issue ⁓ for obvious reasons. And ⁓ but I think what I try to communicate always is Martha Tatarnic (34:12) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (34:22) In Paul's world, he was really ⁓ trying to persuade people that following Jesus is exclusive work. And I think part of what's happened to us in the church
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  over many, well, two millennia is that we often have one foot in the world of ⁓ following Jesus and another foot in the world aligning with our cultural Martha Tatarnic (34:34) Hmm. John Lewis (34:52) norms and values and that creates a tension. And so ⁓ I think the world of politics really falls into that wider category. I'm really trying to push people to Martha Tatarnic (34:54) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (35:18) have Jesus be the focus of how they live in every context, politically included. ⁓
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  And that's more important now, I think, than ever, because there are some perverted Jesuses being ⁓ proclaimed and embodied. Martha Tatarnic (35:25) I John Lewis (35:45) creating all sorts of political conflict in our world. And so part of the beauty of these groups is we only use scripture to shape our response to a certain event presented. And while we can interpret these passages at times differently to live Jesus, Martha Tatarnic (35:49) Yeah. John Lewis (36:15) ⁓ How does Jesus come
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  alive in us? ⁓ Nevertheless, He's the only model. And I think that's really critical in helping us get through this time where ⁓ I think Christianity is being used to support many things Jesus would not recognize and not approve. And so I think it's really time for us to maybe even remember, I think it was Tertullian who said the blood of the martyrs ⁓ is the seed of the church. And I'm not suggesting that, ⁓ although I think there are some martyrs ⁓ who've given their life ⁓ to to oppose the
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  power of national rule, even recently. ⁓ But I think it's a time we have to really get clear about living Jesus. Do we believe that it's the way to a flourishing world? And we have to encourage and support one another in that process. I think that's... Martha Tatarnic (37:19) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (37:36) in a way that's in opposition to some of what the politics of the day are. Martha Tatarnic (37:41) Yeah, I, if it's okay with you, I just want to push on that a little bit more because I'm
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  Canadian and our, our religious slash political climate is in many days, many ways quite different from yours in the States. ⁓ so I am kind of asking this question as an outsider in a lot of ways. ⁓ but John Lewis (37:58) Yes. Martha Tatarnic (38:10) Like, has that made your small groups more challenging? Like, it been, has there been like some places of stickiness or discomfort as like, if you're really taking that seriously, like Jesus has something to say about every aspect of, of how we
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  live our lives, including politically, then You can't just sort of say, well, we're not going to talk about that because it just makes people upset. John Lewis (38:42) No, that's a great question. the answer is yes. Occasionally, it has been a sticky issue. On the other hand, ⁓ because of some of the longstanding relationships that have been formed in these groups, ⁓ we're able to ⁓ we're able to say to one another, this doesn't look like Jesus. Where do you see Jesus in that? And again, it's
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  all a deliberative conversation. But I think very few people in our groups have gotten ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (39:31) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (39:40) have gotten that crosswise with by embracing ⁓ what's happening in some churches and in some ⁓ Christian perspectives. Our groups, I think we keep the bonds of that peace and unity that you described earlier. Even if we vote differently, Our group focuses on what looks like Jesus and what doesn't. And holding people accountable to that standard is ⁓ not
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  that hard to do. Everyone agrees to do that. So I'm not going to tell you there's not some tension at times, there is. But we live with the tension. Martha Tatarnic (40:32) I mean, it seems remarkably valuable in times like this in a whole other way. Like when you are in such a ⁓ difficult political moment in your country, what a wonderful thing to have these places of ⁓ commitment and trust already established where you can talk about the hard things and... ⁓ you know, really serious way.
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  John Lewis (41:04) I think that's absolutely true. that's part of the reason I wanted to write the book was to say, is a practice that our churches don't know much about. And here's how important it can be in the lives of Christians. Martha Tatarnic (41:26) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (41:33) And so, yeah, absolutely. think it could be a crucial adjustment, but we both participate in hierarchical churches, and we both have a tradition of worship that follows a standard process. ⁓ Martha Tatarnic
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  (42:01) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (42:02) And so it's pretty important to figure out how do we bring this communal discernment element into that tradition. Martha Tatarnic (42:12) Yeah, so what do you think that does look like? mean, a lot of our listeners are people who are leading churches right now. ⁓ What would you want them to take away from this book? What would be some practical ways of being able to build this discernment model into our church structures? John Lewis (42:32) Well, I think
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  that depends on each church context. For 25 years, I've been associated with a large congregation in downtown San Antonio, and ⁓ we're not ever going to have a corporate worship where we take time out to deliberate with several hundred people gathered. So in that setting, Martha Tatarnic (42:59) Yeah. John Lewis (43:02) establishing these small groups has been critical. In the American, American, sorry, the United States church, ⁓ we have 60 % of our churches, however, are small churches. And
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  what I really try to emphasize to them is that, and some of my colleagues are priests in small churches, and they're experimenting with Martha Tatarnic (43:18) Right. John Lewis (43:32) putting this structure into a Sunday worship service, in lieu of a sermon, they have a small enough congregation that they can deliberate together on what does living out today's gospel or today's epistle, what does that look like embodied in your local individual context. So they're experimenting with that. I
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  think that's a potential Martha Tatarnic (43:42) That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. John Lewis (44:02) really important potential for the church because the more we ⁓ can't afford to pay full-time clergy, the more this becomes ⁓ critical for building small communities of Christians in ways that get past just thinking that worship is about coming for ⁓ Eucharist on Sunday. Martha Tatarnic (44:29) Mm hmm. Yeah, that sounds pretty transformative and it'll be interesting to see how that does
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  develop as a model for the Sunday gathering in some of those smaller communities. John Lewis (44:48) Well, I'm confident that it at least formed some churches in Paul's time that survived for centuries. so, ⁓ and I've seen it, I've seen this, you know, I've seen how it has caused small groups to thrive in doing this work in a disciplined way. So I'm confident that it has that potential. But Martha Tatarnic (45:17) Yeah, it's pretty time-tested, true. John Lewis (45:19) ⁓ It is time tested.
• 4:20
  But you know, we've got to be willing to ⁓ adopt Paul's trial and error approach to faithfulness. mean, he basically says, all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial and not all things build up individuals in the community. Martha Tatarnic (45:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Lewis (45:47) That becomes the criteria for the work that needs to be done. And I think we need to be able to say all things ought to be permissible in worship ⁓ if we're going to experiment with some things
• 4:24
  that will form people more maturely in the image of Jesus Christ. Martha Tatarnic (46:14) Yeah, amen. That is so true. That brings to mind just another question that I'm really interested to hear your experience in. In leading these different small communities, small groups, how have you found it as an on-ramp for new Christians? Is it the kind of thing that... ⁓ does tend to appeal to seekers or have you primarily been working with people who are more seasoned Christians? John Lewis (46:48)
• 4:28
  No, I think, ⁓ let me add to that, not only ⁓ it's a good on-ramp for new Christians, it's also an even better on-ramp for alienated, people who are alienated from the church and people who are part of recovery communities. Because they know the discipline structure, but they sort ⁓ of... Martha Tatarnic (47:03) ⁓ yeah, I bet. I bet. Yeah. John Lewis (47:18) long ago gave up on the church itself because it didn't incorporate their structure. These groups look very much like recovery ⁓
• 4:32
  communities. And so they, ⁓ we've had great success in bringing all those groups back closer to the church. I mean, we don't try to... Martha Tatarnic (47:30) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (47:44) evangelize from the group to have people come to particular churches. What I try to tell people is we actually form a small body of Christ for this particular process and we become a community of care just doing this process. You can worship wherever you choose or if you choose. ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (47:58) Yeah,
• 4:36
  of course. Truly. Right. But this in itself is an expression of the body of Christ. John Lewis (48:13) I think it's actually the most analogically connected example of the body of Christ to what Paul was doing. I mean, I really do. Martha Tatarnic (48:26) Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. And you can see how it would be a landing place for people who have been disaffected for one reason or another to be able to come into a place where the group norms are established, where there's ways that
• 4:40
  people commit to being with one another and where, ⁓ you know, you're engaged in just a very intentional way about how a relationship with God actually changes your life. John Lewis (49:03) Exactly. ⁓ You know the spirituality writer Parker Palmer talks about the importance of building a circle of trust and he lays out a few norms for how to go about that. And really I would say that's he's just benefiting from early Christian worship as well. But that's what that's what we do, we tell people
• 4:44
  we're going to build a circle of trust and that's why we have only a few norms but we hold fast to those norms. we're not here to fix people, we're not here to give advice, we're here to read the scriptures together and to stimulate our imaginations for how to embody Christ in a myriad of daily events. You know, it's really interesting how in one session a person can have a problem, a small problem to deal with, and the next person will come along and have a nearly life or death decision that
• 4:48
  they're wrestling with. And we always say it takes both of those kinds of engagements to build your muscle for doing this work. Martha Tatarnic (50:15) Hmm. Yeah, of course. John Lewis (50:28) And I think, I don't know about you, but when I was in seminary, I learned a lot about ethics as crisis decision making. And I think what we're trying to do in these groups is say, discernment is not crisis oriented, discernment is day in and day out. ⁓ so we just deal with life that way consistently.
• 4:52
  Martha Tatarnic (50:39) Right. Mm-hmm. yeah, that makes a lot of sense. you know, we do believe in a God who is invested in all of the nooks and crannies of our lives, not just sort of the big mountaintop moments or the pits of despair, but all of it. Like, that is pretty key to our Christian understanding. John Lewis (51:20) Yes, and God is a God of creation, always creating new life in all sorts of situations, big and small. And the more people come to realize that, the more their faith
• 4:56
  really matters to them. Martha Tatarnic (51:33) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and I think it has a multiplying effect. think that when you start paying attention to how God shows up, then you notice how God shows up. And I think that's kind of built into that premise that you said that you need the small things that people are sharing as much as the big things, because all of it is tuned into building up those muscles of being able to discern. John Lewis (52:04) I've people are from time to time
• 5:00
  when we talk about it's both the big and the small things people say well yeah we worship a God who knows every hair on our head why would we not why would we not want to talk about the small things as well as the big things it's important Martha Tatarnic (52:23) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I have just one more question. It's a bit of a right turn ⁓ before we conclude and go into our closing questions. But I do feel like your book should come with a bit of a disclaimer, which is that reading it
• 5:04
  might make you want to call your travel agent and book a trip to do some traveling. John Lewis (52:48) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (52:51) ⁓ because you do structure the book around an actual pilgrimage to the places where Paul was forming Christian community. ⁓ And again, I thought that that just really brought to life the particular context in which Paul is writing each of these letters. But ⁓ what would you think are the most revelatory insights for pilgrims in, like you have actually led these?
• 5:08
  trips, I assume from the book. John Lewis (53:21) Yeah, to Greece and Turkey and, yeah, and Israel, sure. Martha Tatarnic (53:25) Yeah, so what do you think has been most impactful about coming closer to the writings of Paul or just being formed as a Christ follower today? John Lewis (53:39) Well, first of all, hearing scripture read in situ at the actual sites being discussed in a text is transformative in its own way. Because people come away with ⁓ an entirely different imagination for
• 5:12
  the setting. And nothing can change what you think after you've sat on the Martha Tatarnic (53:52) Yeah, truly. John Lewis (54:07) the hillside of the Mount of Beatitudes overlooking the Sea of Galilee and realizing that probably the smaller context than what you might have in your mind ⁓ from not having that experience. our pilgrims, I think, to a person will say they never hear or read scripture the same way again without imagining ⁓ settings. Martha Tatarnic (54:23) Mm-hmm. I think that's
• 5:16
  true. John Lewis (54:38) ⁓ I also think though that ⁓ in going to some of the ancient synagogues, I mean the one at Capernaum on the Sea of Galilee comes to mind, and the way it's built ⁓ in a square with benches around the outer edge, much like a monastic community today would be built, it gives them ⁓ a clear picture of the after-dinner deliberations that I've been talking about. Because you sit in a, at one another and ⁓ deliberating about how to live. So you can't go to one of those
• 5:20
  synagogues and hear us read some scripture passages and then talk about that without forever being changed into knowing that those deliberations were central in the synagogue and in the early churches. Martha Tatarnic (55:07) Right, yeah. John Lewis (55:34) I also think ⁓ in the way the book is structured, you've already commented on this, but I think ⁓ Being a pilgrim as a reader, joining a community imaginatively as Paul's letter is read, I think you really come away realizing he is giving
• 5:24
  them pastoral input to Christian formation. I mean, that's really what every one of these letters is about. It's about addressing contextual issues in that setting, in that city, in those people. Martha Tatarnic (56:02) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (56:14) all of which are different from every other setting. And part of what I think pilgrims take away from going to Greece or Turkey or Israel, when you are there and you see how all these different cultures come together, clash sometimes, but live cheek
• 5:28
  to jowl, ⁓ you come away realizing that ⁓ Our challenges are like their challenges, but you see them through the lens of having been there and walking in the footsteps of Paul or Jesus ⁓ really helps you to hear how they responded to some of same issues we have today. Martha Tatarnic (57:05) Yeah, yeah, truly. Well, I think that you've given people lots of incentive to pick up this book and to explore ⁓ your offerings in it. It's called Discernment in the Early Church. And today we're going to
• 5:32
  take a quick break and we'll come back for some closing questions. Welcome back to Future Christian. I am here with Dr. John Lewis and we're going to have some closing questions. So we do always tell our guests that you can take these questions as seriously as you want. So that also means you can take them as irreverently as you want. It's up to you. ⁓ John, if you were Pope for a day, how would you spend those 24 hours? John Lewis (57:43) Ha ha ha ha ha. ⁓ how would I spend those 24? Martha
• 5:36
  Tatarnic (57:54) What would be your priorities? John Lewis (57:55) My priority would be ⁓ mandating that every church incorporate some practice of communal discernment in their regular worship. Now, how would I spend my 24 hours accomplishing that? I think what I would want to do is go place to place to place to place to help people experience that for themselves and know how important it is. That's totally impractical, obviously. Martha Tatarnic (58:26) Yeah, well, you know what, like, you
• 5:40
  can start with 24 hours and then maybe go from there. John Lewis (58:32) Yes, and that's essentially what Paul did. He paid a few personal visits to places, but he stayed in touch by letters. And we have communication by email today or text that's so easy. I I do a lot of, I'm sure you do too, lot of your pastoral care through emails and texts. And so you're present always when people need you to be present. Martha Tatarnic (58:43) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true. All right, well, I
• 5:44
  think that's a great plan for when you're Pope. ⁓ Is there a theologian or historical Christian figure who you would want to meet, bring back to life? I mean, there's obviously an obvious answer here, but maybe you want to go off script. John Lewis (59:06) Ha ha ha. Well, yes, of course, I would love to meet Jesus and Paul and have conversations. A bit more contemporary figure that I really would love to meet is Albert Schweitzer. Most people know him as a Nobel Peace Prize winner from being
• 5:48
  a doctor in Africa for 50 or 60 years. But most people don't realize that ⁓ in his 20s and 30s, he was probably, if not the foremost, one of the foremost New Testament scholars of the ⁓ early 20th century. And ⁓ he gave up all of, wrote two books that are still ⁓ important today, one about the historical Jesus and one about ⁓ Paul the Apostle, but he gave up all of that to follow the call to put himself in the service of people rather than being a scholar. And I just have a heart for what he
• 5:52
  did. I probably don't have nearly the courage to do what he did, but I just think he's someone that I would just love to have a long conversation with. Martha Tatarnic (1:00:29) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great answer. Thank you. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? John Lewis (1:00:54) the breakdown of relationships and the exercise of coercive power. And again, I mean, I'm speaking in my US setting, but I think it's a worldwide, a worldwide challenge.
• 5:56
  The use of coercive power to accomplish personal or national desires. And maybe the third, I think, Martha Tatarnic (1:01:11) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (1:01:24) our time might be remembered, at least in the history of Christianity, as a new incarnation or a new way of perverting Jesus by Christians to achieve power over others. Martha Tatarnic (1:01:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah. And again, I feel like all of that points exactly to why the offering of this book and your writing is so critical right now. John
• 6:00
  Lewis (1:01:54) Thank you. I agree with that. Yes. Thank you. Martha Tatarnic (1:01:56) Yes. So probably connected to that last question, what are your hopes for the future of Christianity? John Lewis (1:02:05) Well, what I would hope for is a reclaiming of an emphasis on formation in the image of Christ, which, as I said, I think was Paul's, that was his primary goal. And, you know, I think we have beautiful ways to worship and praise God, but I think we have minimized Martha Tatarnic
• 6:04
  (1:02:22) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (1:02:35) the ability to ⁓ glorify God in the way we live Jesus in the world. And so my hope for Christianity is to reclaim formation as central. I ⁓ think we could also benefit from reclaiming the importance of building relationships of care in our church communities. care... ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (1:03:00) Mm-hmm. John Lewis (1:03:03) in all the ways that Jesus cared for people. ⁓ So, you know, my hope is we can do that. And I think this time of conflict hopefully
• 6:08
  will cause us to reflect and say, where have we gone off track in our formation in churches? And what can we do to bring that back into focus? Martha Tatarnic (1:03:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well said. Okay, finally, where can ⁓ people find out more about you? Where can they get this book, Discernment in the Early Church, and Today? John Lewis (1:03:45) Well, you ⁓ can get the book through any local bookstore. They can order it for you. Church Publishing ⁓ is the publishing arm of the Episcopal Church
• 6:12
  in the U.S. You can get it through Church Publishing. I should say you can also get it on Amazon, although that's resort if you don't have a local bookstore to support. ⁓ You can... Martha Tatarnic (1:04:09) Mm. John Lewis (1:04:12) learn a bit more about this practice and me and my close colleague, we've authored an article entitled, Enacting Scripture Together, which is part of a larger book called Anglican Enactments of Scripture, which is forthcoming soon from Bloomsbury Publishing. And
• 6:16
  that, I think, Martha Tatarnic (1:04:37) So good. John Lewis (1:04:41) Most people would find it in that an interesting, well, interesting book, but our articles, the only one I know about right now. ⁓ But you'll you can learn more about what we've been talking about. But also you can if you go to the ⁓ Iona Collaborative ⁓ at Seminary of the Southwest website, you can see a whole lot of my work and that of my colleague. that has found its way into a large national ⁓ formation project called
• 6:20
  the Iona Collaborative. And you can get to that by going to ionasw.edu. ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (1:05:29) Okay, well we can put that in the show notes as well for people. That's great. Okay, well thank you so much for our conversation today. Thank you so much for this book and for this offering. I think that there's just so much here for us to be considering in our churches, in our communities, in our leadership today. And again, it does feel particularly ⁓ critical at this juncture. just some
• 6:24
  pretty holy timing I would say in terms of the book's release. So we always end with the word of peace. John, may Christ's peace be with you. John Lewis (1:05:57) Excuse me. and with you as well and thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.