Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Nirvana's Rise From Independent Artists To Global Icons [Episode 244]

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Nirvana's Rise From Independent Artists To Global Icons [Episode 244] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Speaker 1: We're totally boomed rock and roll. I mean, I'll leave you.
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Speaker 1: You're reading. Little Hans says it's time to rock and roll.
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Speaker 2: Roll up, I totally booked. Welcome back to book don Rock,
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Speaker 2: the podcast for those about to read and rock online
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Speaker 2: at booked on rock dot com. You can find every
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Speaker 2: episode there in both audio and video. Exclusive video highlights
0:25
Speaker 2: from episodes. You got a blog there, the latest rock
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Speaker 2: book releases, and you can check out the Booked on
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Speaker 2: rockstore at booked on rock dot com. Author Robert Boyd
0:34
Speaker 2: is this episode's guest. He's the author of Before the Storm,
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Speaker 2: The formative years of America's last great band. Before the
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Speaker 2: Storm chronicles the birth of Nirvana in Aberdeen, Washington and
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Speaker 2: their early years as independent artists to worldwide superstars. The
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Speaker 2: outcome is known, but the infancy of the band and
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Speaker 2: its rise is a compelling lesson in tenacity, unity, the
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Speaker 2: love of music, and sadly tragedy. Find a playlist of
1:00
Speaker 2: Nirvana in this episode. Show notes Robert, Welcome to the podcast,
1:06
Speaker 2: So great to have you here.
1:07
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on.
1:08
Speaker 2: We got to thank our friend Celeste. She's a mutual
1:11
Speaker 2: friend who will upset this interview.
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Speaker 1: Up you we love Celeste.
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Speaker 2: Let's start with the prologue, the perfect setup to this story.
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Speaker 2: It gets into the history of Aberdeen, Washington and how
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Speaker 2: it's so important to the story of Kirk Cobain and Nirvana.
1:23
Speaker 2: In two thousand and six, the journalist Everett True wrote, quote,
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Speaker 2: Aberdeen feels lethargic, the products in the antique shops, some
1:30
Speaker 2: the place up overused, dirty, and neglected. Talk about how
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Speaker 2: Aberdeen helped to, as you write, cultivate the last great
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Speaker 2: American rock band of the twentieth century, Nirvana.
1:41
Speaker 1: Aberdeen is like the Old West, in my readings, is
1:44
Speaker 1: so far and away what you would expect an American
1:47
Speaker 1: town to be, and it was somewhat like the Old
1:50
Speaker 1: West even into the nineteen fifties. There was a As
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Speaker 1: I noted in the book, prostitution was big up until
1:58
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties and Aberdeen. But it became a lawless
2:03
Speaker 1: environment in the late eighteen hundreds when timber and the
2:09
Speaker 1: fishing industries were prominent, and that brought in laborers, gambling, prostitution,
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Speaker 1: and it was a ripple effect throughout the into the
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Speaker 1: next century. And as that calmed down and families began
2:24
Speaker 1: to matriculate into the town. Unfortunately, there was little left
2:30
Speaker 1: at that point, and that's where Kirk Cobain and his
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Speaker 1: family fall into place. They were there at the end
2:36
Speaker 1: of this Great Boom.
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Speaker 2: Chapter one gets into Kirk's childhood. There he's quoted as
2:41
Speaker 2: saying he had a happy childhood until he was eight,
2:44
Speaker 2: always smiling, loved to draw, showed his creativity at an
2:47
Speaker 2: early age. What caused the shift with Kurt after the
2:50
Speaker 2: age of eight.
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Speaker 1: It's a pretty well known story with Kirk Cobain and Nirvana,
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Speaker 1: his parents' divorce, his early childhood, as it was displayed
3:00
Speaker 1: in a documentary that came out several years ago. Montajer
3:05
Speaker 1: peck just a happy, normal child. In every video that
3:09
Speaker 1: I've seen, pretty nine years old, eight years old, he's smiling,
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Speaker 1: having a blast, and then his parents divorced when he
3:18
Speaker 1: was nine, and it pulled the rug out from underneath him.
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Speaker 1: From the research that I did, he just wanted a normal,
3:25
Speaker 1: simple family. He craved it, and when that ended, the
3:30
Speaker 1: happy child ended too, and angst followed.
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Speaker 2: There was a period when Kurt was said to be
3:37
Speaker 2: homeless as a teenager. How much of that was true,
3:39
Speaker 2: because there's a myth well I.
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Speaker 1: Think he was homeless as far as not having a
3:44
Speaker 1: stable home. There's the great story of him sleeping under
3:47
Speaker 1: the bridge. From everything that I've read, that was not
3:51
Speaker 1: the case. He may have spent some time underneath the bridge,
3:54
Speaker 1: but as far as living there, that most likely was
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Speaker 1: not the case. But after his parents worst, he did
4:01
Speaker 1: go from home to home. He lived with his mother
4:05
Speaker 1: and father multiple times. Obviously after they had separated, he
4:10
Speaker 1: lived with other family members, friends, even a teacher, But
4:15
Speaker 1: there were also times when he had few options, and
4:18
Speaker 1: as I noted in the book, he slept in the
4:20
Speaker 1: hallways of apartments so he could stay warm. So yeah,
4:25
Speaker 1: he was homeless for lack of a better term, just
4:29
Speaker 1: not having a consistent place to rest his head.
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Speaker 2: Another interesting stories regarding the very first concert he attended.
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Speaker 2: He would later say it was a black flag concert,
4:39
Speaker 2: but that wasn't true. It wasn't black flag. And I
4:43
Speaker 2: like this story because I am a fan of Van Halen,
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Speaker 2: so there's a little connection here. What was the first
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Speaker 2: concert he ever went to?
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Speaker 1: Aberdeen? Being the isolated town that it was, there was
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Speaker 1: a little opportunity for Kurt or any team to really
4:58
Speaker 1: gain a vast musical experience. So his first concert was
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Speaker 1: Sammy Hagar. Years later he would try to modify history
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Speaker 1: a bit and claim that Black Flag was his first concert,
5:11
Speaker 1: but he and some friends had traveled to Seattle I
5:15
Speaker 1: believe it was eighty three and saw Sammy Hagar and
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Speaker 1: even sported a T shirt from what I understand after
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Speaker 1: the fact, to school.
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Speaker 2: The red rocker. Kurt had a fascination with all things
5:26
Speaker 2: having to do with the human body. So his first
5:28
Speaker 2: band name is really no surprise talk about his very
5:32
Speaker 2: first band. Some of the other bands he was in
5:35
Speaker 2: before forming Nirvana, there was a very short lived Creden's
5:38
Speaker 2: Clearwater Revival tribute band.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was surprised in researching the history because there
5:45
Speaker 1: were a few occasions where creedence does come up. So
5:48
Speaker 1: he had a very short lived band called the Sellouts
5:51
Speaker 1: that was with Kris Novselich and another local who drunk
5:55
Speaker 1: briefly for them, but it was short lived. But his
6:00
Speaker 1: first experience into just aggressive music was a band that
6:05
Speaker 1: he had started with Dale Krover from the Melvins called
6:10
Speaker 1: Deecal Matter, and he made a demo at his aunt's
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Speaker 1: home with Dale Grover, and he was do it yourself
6:20
Speaker 1: from day one. His aunt offered to allow him to
6:24
Speaker 1: use her electric drum kit, and he was against that.
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Speaker 1: He ended up using a empty suitcase for the percussion
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Speaker 1: parts of that particular demo, and there was.
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Speaker 2: A place called the Shack where he wrote music. This
6:37
Speaker 2: is also when his addiction to drugs begin. Talk about
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Speaker 2: the Shack and how early did drugs take hold of
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Speaker 2: Kurt again.
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Speaker 1: During his period of homelessness, he had few options, but
6:51
Speaker 1: eventually as he grew and kind of developed a social scene,
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Speaker 1: he was able to take advantage of living in home
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Speaker 1: which was basically crumbling and it was called by Kurt
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Speaker 1: and some of his friends the Shack, and it was
7:07
Speaker 1: in the Shack that he spent a lot of time
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Speaker 1: playing the guitar. But unfortunately, also he began to delve
7:14
Speaker 1: in substance use. In high school, he was always into
7:19
Speaker 1: marijuana alcohol, cutting class to acquire both, but once school
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Speaker 1: ended and living in Aberdeen with few outlets, most of
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Speaker 1: his time was spent under the influence.
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Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting because it was a friend
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Speaker 2: of his that was doing heroin and he was telling
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Speaker 2: his friend, you can't do that stuff. It's going to
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Speaker 2: kill you. And then he ended up himself doing Heroin.
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Speaker 1: That was a surprising story, and from what I understand
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Speaker 1: it was he was against Heroin for the simple fact
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Speaker 1: that he was fearful of needles. But over time, the interest,
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Speaker 1: and I think too his mental health played a big
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Speaker 1: role in throwing caution to the wind and eventually experimenting
8:01
Speaker 1: and becoming addicted to Heroin.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the self medication. You hear that often too, their
8:06
Speaker 2: fear of needles, but eventually the addiction gets so strong
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Speaker 2: that they're willing to do anything to get that high.
8:12
Speaker 2: And that's that's what happened. We'll talk about the names
8:15
Speaker 2: that Kurt and Chris went through before choosing Nirvana. One
8:17
Speaker 2: of them was skid Row.
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Speaker 1: Skid Row, I'm drawing a blank pen.
8:21
Speaker 2: It'sil something.
8:22
Speaker 1: But there were yet several names, and even.
8:27
Speaker 2: Hencil Sharpener was that one of them. I got the
8:31
Speaker 2: book here, we'll check. There was quite a few, from
8:33
Speaker 2: what I re call that they went through before they've
8:35
Speaker 2: settled on their own.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and even their first demo in January of eighty eight,
8:40
Speaker 1: they went to Reciprocal Recording. Not being Nirvana, they were
8:46
Speaker 1: one of the other names that they eventually threw out
8:50
Speaker 1: in favor of Nirvana and I think it was in
8:53
Speaker 1: maybe April of eighty eight that they settled on Nirvana.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is Throat Oyster, pen Cap Chew, that was
9:01
Speaker 2: the one. Yes Window Pane ted ed, Fred Bliss skid
9:07
Speaker 2: Row and then Nirvana. Yeah. He had an interest in Buddhism.
9:12
Speaker 2: So that's that's where Nirvana likely came from.
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Speaker 1: Right, so they say read I've read that numerous books
9:19
Speaker 1: about his even though it doesn't come up later on
9:22
Speaker 1: in his life much. But at that point there was
9:26
Speaker 1: an interest in Buddhism, which led to that title for
9:30
Speaker 1: the band that remained in place for the rest of
9:33
Speaker 1: their career.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. As defined by Websters, Nirvana is the extinction of desire, passion, illusion,
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Speaker 2: and the improical self entertainment of rest, truth and unchanging being.
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Speaker 2: So the band's first single was love Buzz. I always
9:48
Speaker 2: thought that was an original. I had no idea that
9:50
Speaker 2: that was a cover and I listened to the original.
9:53
Speaker 2: It's a band called Shocking Blue.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Shocking Blue from the late sixties. It was sa
10:00
Speaker 1: discovered accidentally by Chris NOVASOJE and Aberdeen and Aberdeen pawn
10:05
Speaker 1: Shop or a dollar bin, and he brought it to Kurt.
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Speaker 1: They modified it a bit, and it ultimately became their
10:12
Speaker 1: first single, He's.
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Speaker 2: Got that great bassline too that it's a great song.
10:17
Speaker 2: This was for sub Pop Records, which was an independent
10:20
Speaker 2: label gained fame for signing Seattle bands, with Nirvana being
10:25
Speaker 2: at the top of that list. They released Nirvana's Bleach album,
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Speaker 2: which has Blue, about a Girl, Love, Buzz, negative creep.
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Speaker 2: Those are really considered classics now in the Nirvana catalog,
10:38
Speaker 2: and About a Girl is interesting. I believe this is
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Speaker 2: the song that there was a Beatles connection, right. This
10:43
Speaker 2: is interesting when you get into Kurt's songwriting, it seemed
10:47
Speaker 2: like he had this internal battle going on where he
10:49
Speaker 2: detested pop culture, yet he couldn't help it embrace the
10:52
Speaker 2: elements of great pop that he got from listening to
10:56
Speaker 2: the Beatles. And I think you hear it in About
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Speaker 2: a Girl.
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Speaker 1: That's the song, right absolutely. His aunt Mary kind of
11:01
Speaker 1: introduced him to Beatles. There's a quote in the book
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Speaker 1: that Kurt felt that he was destined to just listen
11:08
Speaker 1: to the Carpenters and seventies oriented bands such as that
11:13
Speaker 1: throughout the remainder of his life. If it wasn't for
11:15
Speaker 1: his aunt Mary. She exposed him to the Beatles, and
11:19
Speaker 1: from there it was a ripple effect. So when he
11:23
Speaker 1: was writing for the Bleach album, every song on the
11:27
Speaker 1: album is rough sludge influenced by the Melvins, but About
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Speaker 1: a Girl is a simple pop melody, and from my research,
11:36
Speaker 1: he essentially just listened to the Beatles NonStop and came
11:42
Speaker 1: up with the tone of the song, and it was
11:45
Speaker 1: ultimately the name of the song. Title of the song
11:48
Speaker 1: came from Chad Channing. He said, well, why didn't you
11:51
Speaker 1: just call it about a Girl? And Kerk Coping said, yeah, why.
11:55
Speaker 2: Not Chad Channing the original drummer, one of them or
11:59
Speaker 2: one of them because it was one from mud Honey that.
12:02
Speaker 1: There were overall seven drummers, seven when throughout, including Dave Grohl.
12:08
Speaker 1: They went through a series of drummers up until the
12:11
Speaker 1: recording of Bleach, including Dan Peters of mud.
12:15
Speaker 2: Honey Summer of nineteen ninety. Dan Peters, right, he was
12:19
Speaker 2: in there briefly.
12:20
Speaker 1: Kirk Cobain. Largely Kirk Cobain was he had become tired
12:24
Speaker 1: of Chad Channing. He wanted a harder drummer, someone who
12:27
Speaker 1: hit harder. They were great friends and from what I understand,
12:31
Speaker 1: remained great friends. Chris and Kirk, with Chad channing throughout
12:36
Speaker 1: the remainder of the band, but they just wanted a
12:39
Speaker 1: drummer that hit hard. So in the spring of nineteen ninety,
12:42
Speaker 1: Chad I was asked to leave the band and it
12:45
Speaker 1: was at a pivotal time because they had some major
12:49
Speaker 1: label interest. Bleach was selling well. They had just finished
12:53
Speaker 1: a European tour in the North American tour, so Chad
12:56
Speaker 1: left the band and they they had few options, so
13:00
Speaker 1: both Tail Kroger and Dan Peters stepped in to help out,
13:05
Speaker 1: and Dan Peters of mud Honey, even though mud Honey
13:08
Speaker 1: was on hiatus at the time, assumed that he was
13:11
Speaker 1: gonna get the role. He was going to be Nirvana's
13:14
Speaker 1: new full time drummer. But completely coincidentally, Kurt Cobain and
13:19
Speaker 1: Chris Nosouj attended a Scream show in California. Dave Grohl
13:27
Speaker 1: was the drummer Scream, a punk band out of Washington,
13:31
Speaker 1: d C. And soon after that particular show, Scream disbanded,
13:36
Speaker 1: so Dave Grole, needing a new position, was pointed in
13:42
Speaker 1: the direction of Nirvana and the rest is history Book.
13:47
Speaker 2: On Rock podcast will be back after this. They alllook
13:50
Speaker 2: his roles in the future Bride do the live show
13:56
Speaker 2: in June of eighty nine at Seattle's More Theater that
13:59
Speaker 2: really put Nirvana on map in Seattle among the music community.
14:02
Speaker 2: Can you talk about that show?
14:04
Speaker 1: In December and January of eighty eight and eighty nine,
14:08
Speaker 1: Nirvana completed recording of Bleach Subpop. Had some financial issues
14:13
Speaker 1: and they weren't able to distribute the album as fast
14:16
Speaker 1: as they would have liked, and a June release was
14:19
Speaker 1: planned at that time as well, a June show was
14:22
Speaker 1: planned at the More Theater in Seattle along with Tad
14:26
Speaker 1: and mud Honey. Nirvana opened that particular show, and at
14:30
Speaker 1: the time they were known, but not to the extent
14:32
Speaker 1: of Tad or mud Honey for that matter as well.
14:36
Speaker 1: But they, from what I understand, put on an unbelievable performance,
14:41
Speaker 1: trash their gear, and then proceeded to begin the North
14:45
Speaker 1: American legatatur into June and July of eighty nine.
14:49
Speaker 2: Steve Turner was on this podcast. He put out a
14:53
Speaker 2: great book, and I remember him saying, the speed at
14:56
Speaker 2: which Nirvana developed into this amazing band, it was almost overnight.
15:01
Speaker 2: It was amazing. They knew this was this band actually
15:05
Speaker 2: he said he was offered a job as a second guitarist,
15:09
Speaker 2: and he said no because he felt they'd be better
15:11
Speaker 2: off as a as a three piece. Did you know that?
15:14
Speaker 1: I didn't. But one of the things that I noted
15:17
Speaker 1: in the book that was very surprising to me when
15:19
Speaker 1: I read it was after Jason Everman left the band
15:24
Speaker 1: and he was briefly a touring guitarist. Ben Sheppard soau
15:28
Speaker 1: Garden's bass player, eventual bass player. He was a roady
15:31
Speaker 1: and he was considered as a second guitarist. He wasn't
15:37
Speaker 1: offered the position, but it was just it was an
15:41
Speaker 1: odd story that I had never heard much about before.
15:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to revisit the Everman story because
15:46
Speaker 2: he's fascinating too. We'll get to that, yeah. Author Robert Boyd.
15:50
Speaker 2: He's the author of Before the Storm, The Formative Years
15:52
Speaker 2: of America's Last Great Band Bleach, released in nineteen eighty nine.
15:56
Speaker 2: It's received with critical acclaim, but it's not the commercial
16:00
Speaker 2: hit that would come with the next album. As we know,
16:03
Speaker 2: we're still at the height of the hairband era. Band
16:05
Speaker 2: like Nirvana, they've got a following, but they're not getting radio,
16:09
Speaker 2: airplay and MTV anything like that. But two years later,
16:12
Speaker 2: all of those hair bands gone thanks to never Mind
16:16
Speaker 2: released under a major label, and Nirvana becomes the biggest
16:21
Speaker 2: band in the world. They signed with Geffen, and before
16:25
Speaker 2: I want to ask you how they end up signing
16:26
Speaker 2: with Geffen, But anybody listening to this or watching this,
16:28
Speaker 2: it's old enough to recall I never have seen anything
16:32
Speaker 2: like it before or since, an album blow up like that.
16:37
Speaker 2: And I think you're around the same age as me.
16:40
Speaker 2: I was in college. This is nineteen fall of ninety one,
16:45
Speaker 2: and I remember my roommate had never Mind. The single
16:51
Speaker 2: Smells Like Teen Spirit had just come out. He was
16:54
Speaker 2: really into, like a lot of the alternative bands. He
16:56
Speaker 2: was a big Jans Addiction fan, so he was been
17:00
Speaker 2: more in the know on it. So I remember looking
17:01
Speaker 2: at it, I was like, who is this? You know, you
17:05
Speaker 2: got to hear it, and you know, really it was
17:08
Speaker 2: like within a month or two they were huge. When
17:12
Speaker 2: did you first hear Smells Like Teen Spirit? And I mean,
17:15
Speaker 2: did you experience the same thing, because that was just
17:17
Speaker 2: mind blowing.
17:18
Speaker 1: I'm actually younger I was. I was only in my
17:22
Speaker 1: early teens at the time. In ninety two, after the
17:25
Speaker 1: album was released, is when I really experienced the pull
17:30
Speaker 1: of never Mind.
17:32
Speaker 2: So they were big by the time you first heard,
17:36
Speaker 2: but you must have heard then, Oh your friends at school,
17:38
Speaker 2: you got to listen to them, Yeah.
17:39
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And I was pulled in immediately. When I
17:43
Speaker 1: wrote this book and picked the title of the book,
17:47
Speaker 1: I tried to put it out word out through social media,
17:50
Speaker 1: and people were like, the last great band like people
17:55
Speaker 1: like questioned that, and I understand that. I completely understand that.
18:00
Speaker 1: It's based on the impact culturally that you don't see
18:07
Speaker 1: anywhere since the nineties. There has been no band that
18:10
Speaker 1: I know of that has had such an impact in
18:14
Speaker 1: so many ways, clothing, culturally, in so many factors as Nirvana.
18:20
Speaker 1: That is why I picked that particular title. The music,
18:24
Speaker 1: of course, is incredible, but the impact that hasn't been
18:28
Speaker 1: seen since.
18:29
Speaker 2: There's a great story September. I just looked it up.
18:32
Speaker 2: September twenty sixth, nineteen ninety one. Nirvana is still unknown.
18:37
Speaker 2: At that time. I think they just released Smell nineteen spirit.
18:40
Speaker 2: I was going to college at Southern Connecticut State University
18:43
Speaker 2: in New Haven and they played at the Moon at
18:47
Speaker 2: the Moon and it's on YouTube. There's like fifty people
18:51
Speaker 2: there maybe one hundred. It was right down the road
18:55
Speaker 2: from where I was the dorm I was in. This
18:58
Speaker 2: is pre internet, had no idea, so maybe it was
19:01
Speaker 2: there was an ad in the paper or whatever. But
19:04
Speaker 2: that place is now a bank, I think, and it's
19:07
Speaker 2: on Dixwell Ab in New Haven. It's mind blowing to
19:10
Speaker 2: watch that because you're you're seeing a band playing in
19:14
Speaker 2: this little tiny club, I mean barely, like Chris's head
19:18
Speaker 2: is almost hitting the ceiling. It's so small. Month later,
19:22
Speaker 2: two months later, they're the entire It's amazing.
19:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, throughout that entire tour in September, late September and
19:31
Speaker 1: early October, their video was number one on MTV. They're
19:35
Speaker 1: selling hundreds of thousands of albums and they're playing in
19:39
Speaker 1: clubs the size of the basement, and they're in October
19:43
Speaker 1: and the stories in the book and in multiple books.
19:47
Speaker 1: October they played in Texas and the club is just
19:52
Speaker 1: jam packed. I mean you couldn't fit another body in.
19:56
Speaker 1: It was a that particular show that curticides to CrowdSurf
20:01
Speaker 1: and he's he gets into an altercation with a bouncer.
20:06
Speaker 1: It's a pretty well known clip, but that was how
20:09
Speaker 1: that tour was. It was just just a sweaty mess
20:13
Speaker 1: of bodies at every stop.
20:16
Speaker 2: And Geffen didn't even think it was going to be
20:18
Speaker 2: I don't I think that what was it? They had
20:20
Speaker 2: an estimated sales number, so they could not keep enough
20:26
Speaker 2: of these CDs in the record stores. They I think
20:29
Speaker 2: there was a what was that? They said they maybe
20:31
Speaker 2: expected like fifty thousand copies or something like that.
20:35
Speaker 1: There were about one hundred thousand copies printed both between
20:40
Speaker 1: the UK and US. So there was a period of
20:43
Speaker 1: time after Nevermind was released and smells like teen Spirit
20:48
Speaker 1: the video was playing every you know, fifteen minutes practically
20:54
Speaker 1: on MTV that Geffen suspended pressings on albums except never Mind.
21:00
Speaker 1: They had to catch up, and in the UK there
21:03
Speaker 1: were so few copies available if any, people were just
21:07
Speaker 1: making tapes, trading tapes amongst themselves until the album became
21:13
Speaker 1: available once again.
21:14
Speaker 2: In the absolute switch there you had bands that were
21:16
Speaker 2: playing in arenas, selling out arenas, now playing in tiny
21:21
Speaker 2: little clubs that Nirvana started out playing, and then Nirvana
21:24
Speaker 2: is now playing in the huge arenas. How did they
21:27
Speaker 2: sign with Geffen?
21:28
Speaker 1: So Subpop wanted them for a second album, and they
21:33
Speaker 1: had presented the band with a much lengthier contract than
21:37
Speaker 1: their first. Their first contract was one page fill in
21:40
Speaker 1: the blanks, and they presented a new contract thirty pages long.
21:45
Speaker 1: But they wanted to particularly Kurk Coban wanted a major label.
21:50
Speaker 1: He wanted to be a rock star despite all the stories.
21:53
Speaker 1: He wanted that adulation, and there were several major labels
22:00
Speaker 1: that recording Nirvana. And actually, after I had released this book,
22:05
Speaker 1: I had corresponded with a former employee of MCA who
22:10
Speaker 1: tried to sign Nirvana to MCA, and he was very close,
22:15
Speaker 1: but ultimately Geffen won out and the dollar amount that
22:21
Speaker 1: Nirvana signed for was not substantial. But one caveat within
22:25
Speaker 1: the contract was if they sold more than half a
22:29
Speaker 1: million copies, they would earn millions. They must have been
22:34
Speaker 1: clairvoyant or something, because they sold twenty times that over time.
22:40
Speaker 2: Let's go back to Jason Evererman. I love this story.
22:43
Speaker 2: So he was in the band as the second guitarist
22:46
Speaker 2: at one point. Didn't last long, apparently Kirk thought he
22:50
Speaker 2: was too much of a showman. He eventually goes on
22:53
Speaker 2: to a career in the military. So what happened? How
22:57
Speaker 2: long was he in the band? And that's the I
22:59
Speaker 2: believe that in your book to he was too much
23:01
Speaker 2: of a showman.
23:01
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So he he financed Bleach Bleach cost a
23:06
Speaker 1: little over six hundred dollars multiple days at reciprocal recording,
23:09
Speaker 1: and he financed that after he had kind of entered
23:13
Speaker 1: Nirvana's universe. Kerk thought well, we could use a guitarist
23:17
Speaker 1: for touring, and he hit the bill. They didn't really
23:21
Speaker 1: know him well. Chad Channing did know him because they
23:24
Speaker 1: both were from Bainbridge Island, but Chris and Kurt did
23:27
Speaker 1: not know him. They quickly learned that their personalities did
23:31
Speaker 1: not mesh once the tour began in the summer of
23:34
Speaker 1: eighty nine. So they played throughout June and July made
23:39
Speaker 1: it to New York and Kurt and Chris had actually
23:43
Speaker 1: had the plan to just leave him there, that they
23:46
Speaker 1: didn't want him in the band. They just that they
23:49
Speaker 1: they wanted to just flee play in the night, and
23:53
Speaker 1: they thought better of it, but they canceled the remainder
23:56
Speaker 1: of the tour. They just could not deal with Jason
23:59
Speaker 1: never anymore. And I've seen some of the footage from
24:03
Speaker 1: shows from that summer and he is very animated on stage.
24:08
Speaker 2: Really is that on YouTube.
24:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of headbanging. I guess you know he's
24:13
Speaker 1: a metal guy. There's a few shows from that particular tour.
24:17
Speaker 1: There's one show where he actually dives off the stage.
24:22
Speaker 1: It might have been in New Jersey and he assaults
24:26
Speaker 1: someone in the crowd. So it was those type of
24:28
Speaker 1: things that they didn't fit with the Nirvana that everyone
24:32
Speaker 1: knows and would eventually know.
24:34
Speaker 2: And he's on so one track was he on one
24:37
Speaker 2: of the live albums.
24:38
Speaker 1: They added a track to a Kiss compilation and he
24:42
Speaker 1: played on that particular song that was on that compilation
24:46
Speaker 1: like a benefit for Kiss when that was released in
24:50
Speaker 1: eighty nine. So Everman, soon after he left Nirvana, landed
24:55
Speaker 1: in Soundgarden. They're bassist quit suddenly. I believe it was
24:59
Speaker 1: mid tour or right before a tour. So they took
25:03
Speaker 1: Jason Neverman on and he had the same trouble with
25:08
Speaker 1: Sound Garden that he had with Tirvana, just personalities did
25:11
Speaker 1: not mesh. He lasted just a few months. He was
25:15
Speaker 1: out of seven Garden and had very few options. He
25:20
Speaker 1: eventually made his way to New York and picked up
25:22
Speaker 1: some various jobs. I believe you work in a factory.
25:26
Speaker 1: He was a byte messenger, but he eventually signed enlisted
25:30
Speaker 1: in the military and he joined Special Forces, did a
25:35
Speaker 1: tour in Iraq, tour in Afghanistan, and was honorably discharged.
25:40
Speaker 1: So he had an incredible has had an incredible life,
25:45
Speaker 1: and in recent years has done sailing for benefits around
25:50
Speaker 1: the world, at least on the throughout the Pacific Ocean,
25:54
Speaker 1: so he has done a lot.
25:56
Speaker 2: It's a great story. But always do you Love Me?
25:58
Speaker 2: That was the kiss song they covered yes book on
26:01
Speaker 2: rock podcasts. We'll be back after this.
26:04
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a break, He'll be back.
26:08
Speaker 2: Never Mind release September of ninety one. Smells like teen
26:11
Speaker 2: Spirit released ahead of the album August of ninety one.
26:14
Speaker 2: By the fall, the album's picking up serious steam, and
26:17
Speaker 2: it's interesting to read about how Kurt's relationship with Courtney
26:19
Speaker 2: Love was advancing at a rapid pace right at the
26:22
Speaker 2: same time, and Nevermind is doing the same. How did
26:25
Speaker 2: Curt and Courtney meet and was it instinct chemistry?
26:28
Speaker 1: I think Courtney thought it was. She was beginning her
26:31
Speaker 1: own band, Hole began playing some of the same shows
26:34
Speaker 1: as Nirvana, and Courtney quickly gravitated towards Kirk. Between the
26:40
Speaker 1: release of never mind, and the end of the year
26:44
Speaker 1: they became inseparable. It was within that time period that
26:47
Speaker 1: she became pregnant, and by February of ninety two they
26:50
Speaker 1: were married. She had been in Nirvana's world for some time,
26:55
Speaker 1: but it was in the summer of ninety one fall
26:58
Speaker 1: of ninety one that she really made her presence known
27:02
Speaker 1: and things happened quickly.
27:05
Speaker 2: She moved around the country quite a bit, so at
27:07
Speaker 2: that time she was living in Seattle when she met him.
27:10
Speaker 1: I believe she was living in California, but she had
27:12
Speaker 1: been all over the map at that point in her life.
27:16
Speaker 1: Their lives were very similar. They had a toxic relationship,
27:20
Speaker 1: but they were very similar people in that they came
27:23
Speaker 1: from broken homes. They struggled with addiction, antisocial personalities. But
27:29
Speaker 1: where Courtney was very animated, Kurt was far from that,
27:35
Speaker 1: and I think that's what eventually created some strain in
27:40
Speaker 1: their relationship in Nirvana as a whole.
27:43
Speaker 2: She lived in the UK for a while and her father.
27:46
Speaker 2: This is a while so her father was a roadie
27:48
Speaker 2: for the Grateful Debt. You can see her on the
27:51
Speaker 2: back of one of Grateful Dead's albums. There's a picture
27:54
Speaker 2: of all of the family of Gravel Dead members and
27:58
Speaker 2: Courtney loves their little baby. Do you know about that? Yeah,
28:01
Speaker 2: I'm sure right.
28:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the late nineties, there was a documentary that
28:04
Speaker 1: was a release called Kurt and Courtney. It was controversial
28:08
Speaker 1: and her father's interviewed in the documentary.
28:11
Speaker 2: And yeah, they did not get along.
28:14
Speaker 1: No, no, not at all, And I don't think they
28:17
Speaker 1: ever mended their relationship.
28:19
Speaker 2: He just passed away like a year or two ago, right, Yeah, Yeah,
28:23
Speaker 2: it's the album. God, I always try try pronouncing this
28:27
Speaker 2: one a oxo mack soa. That's the Grateful Dead album.
28:31
Speaker 2: And I think it's on the inside sleeve or on
28:32
Speaker 2: the back is where you could see Courtney love it's
28:37
Speaker 2: a little kid. What was the recording process like for Nevermind?
28:39
Speaker 2: Because you read about a couple of interesting things in
28:41
Speaker 2: the book. They always had to have a jam session
28:45
Speaker 2: before recording, and Kurt this is fascinating didn't come up
28:49
Speaker 2: with lyrics till a lot of the songs until the
28:51
Speaker 2: last minute. But it starts to talk without the jam session,
28:54
Speaker 2: right they had. That was a thing that there was
28:56
Speaker 2: a routine for them.
28:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really thrived during jam sessions. They typically would
29:03
Speaker 1: begin sessions or practices in general jamming and a lot
29:07
Speaker 1: of songs. The infancy of songs began during those jams.
29:12
Speaker 1: The album was recorded in California in Los Angeles, and
29:16
Speaker 1: they spent less than a month recording the album, and
29:20
Speaker 1: typically would spend an entire afternoon recording, jamming, recording, and
29:25
Speaker 1: then leaving the studio and heading down to event's beech.
29:29
Speaker 1: Kristovasalich later said that, you know, it was some of
29:33
Speaker 1: the best times of his life because things obviously got
29:37
Speaker 1: pretty crazy soon after.
29:39
Speaker 2: You talk about a great movie, idea, that would be
29:41
Speaker 2: a great movie, that period of time before they blow up.
29:45
Speaker 2: What that was like for the guys, because yeah, I
29:48
Speaker 2: remember Chris talking about that. Just it was like a
29:52
Speaker 2: time of innocence. They still had aspirations. Obviously, Kurt, like
29:56
Speaker 2: you said, he wanted to break into the big time,
29:59
Speaker 2: but certainly didn't expect it to be as as huge
30:02
Speaker 2: as it became, and really too much for him to handle,
30:06
Speaker 2: too much for anybody to handle, really, that kind of fame,
30:09
Speaker 2: it really was. But that that short period of time
30:13
Speaker 2: there where it was just them and the music. I
30:16
Speaker 2: would love to see a movie on that and his
30:18
Speaker 2: popular Popular's never Mind is the story of the follow
30:22
Speaker 2: up and sadly last Nirvana studio album in Utero from
30:25
Speaker 2: ninety three. That may be even more interesting because here
30:29
Speaker 2: now Kurt's trying to get rid of all these fans
30:33
Speaker 2: that like he used to say, like he'd be looking
30:35
Speaker 2: out in the audience and he'd see the guy who
30:38
Speaker 2: was the quarterback of the football team wearing his letter jackets,
30:40
Speaker 2: like this is the guy that would beat the shit
30:41
Speaker 2: out of me in high school. Now he's my fan.
30:44
Speaker 2: Now he's my number one fan. It's bizarre. So he
30:47
Speaker 2: wanted to distance himself from that. It still didn't work, though,
30:50
Speaker 2: because people ended up buying that that album droves, you know.
30:54
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. Christovslich described it as a litmus test for
30:58
Speaker 1: their fans. They wanted the pure Nirvana fan, they wanted
31:03
Speaker 1: within Utero. They they wanted to distance themselves from the
31:08
Speaker 1: fake listener. I think Intero is their masterpiece. It hits
31:13
Speaker 1: all all the areas for me, all the buttons. It's
31:16
Speaker 1: just amazing. And to think that they made that album
31:19
Speaker 1: in such a time of turmoil, it's amazing.
31:24
Speaker 2: What's that lyric in the opening track, serve of the
31:26
Speaker 2: servants or teenage.
31:27
Speaker 1: Angst teenage anks is paid off well now on board
31:30
Speaker 1: and old.
31:31
Speaker 2: Wow. I mean that's the first I think the literally
31:35
Speaker 2: the first line.
31:36
Speaker 1: In the entire first line in the album.
31:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about where it was recorded because it was
31:41
Speaker 2: chosen specifically to keep the press away, and also the producer,
31:45
Speaker 2: who sadly just passed away, Steve Albini, took a flat fee, so.
31:50
Speaker 1: Again they wanted to distance there themselves from the fake fan.
31:54
Speaker 1: They picked Steve Albini as the producer because he could
31:59
Speaker 1: get that hard sound while sounding pure at the same time.
32:05
Speaker 1: He took a flat fee. He was definitely a man
32:07
Speaker 1: of principle, even though it's a sizable sum. I believe
32:11
Speaker 1: he took one hundred thousand dollars. It might have been more,
32:15
Speaker 1: but he lost millions and royalties. They picked PAKADRM Studios
32:21
Speaker 1: in now you're really testing my memory. I forget the town,
32:27
Speaker 1: but packader was in the middle of nowhere again here
32:30
Speaker 1: we go.
32:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, Minnesota can fall Minnesota.
32:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was February in Minnesota, snow everywhere. Packaderam
32:40
Speaker 1: was a studio, but it was also it had living quarters,
32:43
Speaker 1: so they spent two weeks together with Albini and another
32:49
Speaker 1: engineer Courtney eventually showed up as well. They they picked
32:54
Speaker 1: this isolated area for a number of reasons, to distance
32:57
Speaker 1: themselves from the press, but also, unfortunately, to limit Kurt's
33:02
Speaker 1: risk of relapse. He was at a time where his
33:06
Speaker 1: addiction was really out of control. I don't know if
33:09
Speaker 1: they were successful in limiting his use in that environment,
33:13
Speaker 1: but everything that I've read about those two weeks approximate
33:17
Speaker 1: two weeks in at Paty Durham it was a great time.
33:22
Speaker 1: I would love to see some footage. There's very little.
33:25
Speaker 1: There's some photos, but every photo there smile and having
33:29
Speaker 1: a blast. It's really crazy again to think of the
33:33
Speaker 1: turmoil going on with them in their private lives as
33:37
Speaker 1: a band, but during those two weeks, they just pulled
33:41
Speaker 1: it all together and made a epic masterpiece.
33:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the middle of nowhere. So now I'm thinking
33:46
Speaker 2: of speaking of photos, there's that photo of Kurt where
33:49
Speaker 2: he's wearing what he's wearing a hat. It's like somebody
33:51
Speaker 2: out of the movie Fargo. It's like it's a winter hat.
33:56
Speaker 1: Is that?
33:57
Speaker 2: What is? Because he was in Minnesota? Was he wearing
33:59
Speaker 2: it there? You know what I'm talking about? Okay, I
34:03
Speaker 2: gotta maybe I'll send it to you by by email
34:05
Speaker 2: so you can. But I don't even know what you
34:07
Speaker 2: call it. But you know, like like the movie Fargo,
34:10
Speaker 2: where like the flaps come down and cover the ears
34:12
Speaker 2: and it's like a big wool you know, big wool
34:15
Speaker 2: thing on top of it almost looks like a raccoon. Yeah, yeah,
34:20
Speaker 2: I wonder if that's what you know, that's where it
34:23
Speaker 2: came from. Uh oh. The other thing is funny is
34:25
Speaker 2: the name that Steve Albani had the nickname for Courtney.
34:28
Speaker 1: Love Psycho hooseby Psycho.
34:32
Speaker 2: Now why did he collar that?
34:34
Speaker 1: Well? Those are two very strong personalities Albini and Corney Love.
34:40
Speaker 1: It was completely expected that they would but he wanted
34:44
Speaker 1: an environment of stability to make a good band. Again.
34:47
Speaker 1: He was a man of principle and he did not
34:51
Speaker 1: want the drama. And that's all Courtney Pratt was drama.
34:55
Speaker 2: I'd love to get some film footage of that going down,
34:58
Speaker 2: Steve alban Oh, yeah, out of here. Yeah. April eighth,
35:02
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four, the news that kurtkle Baine was dead.
35:04
Speaker 2: I remember where I was. Where were you when you
35:07
Speaker 2: heard the news of his suicide and it went through
35:09
Speaker 2: your mind when you.
35:10
Speaker 1: Heard it again. I was still a teenager at the time,
35:13
Speaker 1: but it was hugely impactful. That was my band, like
35:18
Speaker 1: the Beatles to others, and how Leon's John Lennon's death
35:23
Speaker 1: was impactful. Freddie Mercury's death was impactful for Queen fans.
35:28
Speaker 1: I was a Nirvana fan. I was hugely impacted. The
35:33
Speaker 1: music industry changed, it was never the same, and there
35:38
Speaker 1: were bands that came along obviously influenced by Nirvana, Silverchair Bush,
35:44
Speaker 1: you know, all those nineties alternative post grunge bands. But
35:50
Speaker 1: the uniqueness of Nirvana it was rare. It became rare,
35:57
Speaker 1: scarce and hasn't been seen sense.
36:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just genuine and I never heard anything
36:03
Speaker 2: with a mix of raw, just a sound overall production
36:07
Speaker 2: of it, raw, the sound of the guitars, raw, but
36:11
Speaker 2: yet undeniably catchy, I guess, for lack of a better word,
36:16
Speaker 2: but it just it's something you go back to again
36:19
Speaker 2: and again and again. It's like I was just telling
36:20
Speaker 2: you before we started recording, I was listening to a
36:23
Speaker 2: bunch of Nirvana this morning on my way to work,
36:26
Speaker 2: bunch of Nirvana on my way home from work, and
36:29
Speaker 2: just all of these songs that I know instantly. I
36:32
Speaker 2: know the lyrics and the riffs. I think Kurtz underrated
36:36
Speaker 2: as a guitarist. I know those were fans of the
36:39
Speaker 2: eighties guitar and I'm a Van Halen fan, so I'm
36:42
Speaker 2: a fan of those guitarists that technically, you know, technically proficient.
36:47
Speaker 2: But the riffs that he came up with, the melodies,
36:50
Speaker 2: the way he constructed a song, there's like nothing I
36:54
Speaker 2: ever heard before since.
36:55
Speaker 1: I've heard Nirvana described as basically a mix of Black
36:59
Speaker 1: Satabeth and the Beatles, and I think that that's pretty accurate.
37:03
Speaker 1: That is just a perfect combination of pop, metal, sludge
37:10
Speaker 1: at everything.
37:11
Speaker 2: If you're of a certain age, like I was nineteen twenty,
37:15
Speaker 2: you were a teenager at the time, you got that
37:16
Speaker 2: angst in you, that that the frustration of being a
37:20
Speaker 2: teenager and late teens, early twenties, it was like that.
37:23
Speaker 2: Just the sound of it too, because there was the
37:26
Speaker 2: funny things like what is he saying? Like smells like
37:28
Speaker 2: teen spirit they had My brother had the cassette single
37:31
Speaker 2: and it had the lyrics on it, so then you
37:32
Speaker 2: could actually read it because nobody knew what the hell
37:34
Speaker 2: he was saying. But you didn't even need to know
37:38
Speaker 2: what he was saying, really just to feel what was
37:40
Speaker 2: coming out of him. Like you could connect with that
37:43
Speaker 2: frustration and the angst that that he was feeling a
37:46
Speaker 2: lot of people felt, and a lot of people that
37:50
Speaker 2: I was wonder them. You're not the most popular kid,
37:52
Speaker 2: you know. Kirk Kurt was that guy like you could
37:54
Speaker 2: relate to that. He just kind of championed that whole movement.
38:00
Speaker 2: He would be fifty eight. I mean, that's what's crazy.
38:03
Speaker 2: This February. He'd be fifty eight. And you give some
38:05
Speaker 2: statistics in the book that showed just how popular they
38:09
Speaker 2: still are, thirty million listeners per month on Spotify. Four
38:13
Speaker 2: of the top ten songs played on mainstream rock radio
38:16
Speaker 2: are from Nirvana, Smells Like Teen Spirit, Come as You
38:19
Speaker 2: Are in Bloom, and Withium all from Nevermind. Seventy five
38:23
Speaker 2: million albums sold worldwide. And you know what was another
38:25
Speaker 2: cool thing like with smells Like Teen Spirit, So he
38:28
Speaker 2: was he was taking from the music that was like that,
38:31
Speaker 2: the Smells Like Teen Spirit riff. He even said, it's
38:34
Speaker 2: more than a feeling from Boston. So he's taking these
38:37
Speaker 2: riffs and creating something completely unique. It sounds nothing like
38:44
Speaker 2: anything that came before now there was I mean, punk
38:47
Speaker 2: rock had already been there and all. I get that,
38:49
Speaker 2: but it was just this combination again like that, that's
38:52
Speaker 2: perfect Black Sabbath and the Beatles. What do you think
38:55
Speaker 2: he'd be doing today if he was still with us?
38:59
Speaker 2: Would he have has gone solo come back to Nirvana?
39:02
Speaker 2: Because I think about this all the time. It was
39:04
Speaker 2: just it's like Hendrix, he just was not around long enough.
39:08
Speaker 2: Twenty seven years old.
39:10
Speaker 1: I think Nirvana was on the way on their way
39:12
Speaker 1: out in the spring of ninety four. In hindsight, there
39:17
Speaker 1: was just so much turmoil, largely because of his addiction.
39:20
Speaker 1: The last time he and Kris Novasalach ever saw each
39:24
Speaker 1: other was in the Seattle Airport. Christ was driving making
39:29
Speaker 1: an attempt to bring him to get him into rehab,
39:32
Speaker 1: and they had a vicious argument, and that was the
39:34
Speaker 1: last time he saw him. I think that just speaks
39:37
Speaker 1: to just again the turmoil, the craziness in the Nirvana universe.
39:44
Speaker 1: And I think Kurt made it pretty clear in a
39:46
Speaker 1: number of ways that he wanted to try new things.
39:48
Speaker 1: He had gotten very close with Michael Stipe in ninety four,
39:52
Speaker 1: and there was some discussion about the two of them
39:55
Speaker 1: recording together. So I think he would have gravitated towards
39:59
Speaker 1: like a folk acoustic solo career, but we'll never know.
40:04
Speaker 2: I think that too. But I also wonder enough time
40:07
Speaker 2: past would he have gotten back with the guys and
40:11
Speaker 2: did another run with Nirvana, because I think he would have,
40:15
Speaker 2: you know, if he had enough time away from all
40:17
Speaker 2: that craziness. You know, give another like ten years and
40:20
Speaker 2: you know, two thousand and four we get, you get
40:23
Speaker 2: the Nirvana reunion.
40:24
Speaker 1: I mean, and Kris Novasalitch had a genuine brotherhood, Like, yeah,
40:31
Speaker 1: all the footage I've seen, they they had something special.
40:36
Speaker 1: Dave was a perfect addition Nirvana and was one of
40:42
Speaker 1: the guys, but it was Chris and Kurt's band. When
40:47
Speaker 1: I watch interviews with Chris nova Salitch overtime since her past, like,
40:53
Speaker 1: he's not the same like he It had such an
40:56
Speaker 1: impact on him. He's a different person.
41:00
Speaker 2: He left music entirely. He got into politics, didn't.
41:03
Speaker 1: He He's a huge into politics. Yeah, he tried some
41:08
Speaker 1: musical ventures, but obviously nothing would compete with where he
41:12
Speaker 1: had been.
41:13
Speaker 2: Thankfully, there's four studio albums right because there's Bleach in Sesticide.
41:18
Speaker 1: Inceesticide was a population album. Yeah, that was from eighty
41:24
Speaker 1: seven to ninety two. That was every studio session rarities
41:29
Speaker 1: B sides that was put together in December of ninety
41:34
Speaker 1: two to basically capitalize on their capitalized keep the audience
41:39
Speaker 1: at Bay until a proper studio album could come out,
41:42
Speaker 1: which was eventually in utero.
41:45
Speaker 2: Booked on rock podcast We'll be back after.
41:48
Speaker 1: This, come out, Come out wherever you.
41:50
Speaker 2: Are before the store on the formative years of America's
41:55
Speaker 2: last great band. It's out now. You can find it
41:57
Speaker 2: wherever books are sold, and where can people find you online?
42:01
Speaker 1: Robert Well, I do have an Instagram page dedicated to
42:04
Speaker 1: this book, but also just as a basically a celebration
42:08
Speaker 1: of the band. I use the account to get the
42:11
Speaker 1: book out there, but I also use it to just
42:14
Speaker 1: kind of celebrate the impact Nirvana had. It's Nirvana Underscore
42:18
Speaker 1: before Underscore, the Underscore Storm put a.
42:21
Speaker 2: Link in the show notes if there was one song
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Speaker 2: that you would choose to introduce somebody to Nirvana that
42:28
Speaker 2: never listened to them before, that would be like the
42:29
Speaker 2: perfect gateway song. What would it be?
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Speaker 1: I've always been a sucker for dive. It's on its
42:35
Speaker 1: side yes, and it just it's perfect. It's just I
42:40
Speaker 1: never get tired of it. Lithium as well, but everyone
42:44
Speaker 1: knows lithium, but dive to me is just it just
42:48
Speaker 1: picks me up every time I hear it.
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Speaker 2: Robert Boyd, thanks man.
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Speaker 1: Thank you very much. That's it. It's in the books.