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Reducing Injuries Through Ergonomics with Catamount Consulting | Buying Local S3E56 · Buying Local Podcast

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All right. Welcome everyone to Buying
0:02
Local. I'm your host, Mike Nelson from
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5 Towers Media, joined today by none other than Alicia Turner
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from Catamount Consulting. Hi.
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Hi. Thanks for having me.
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Yeah. Thanks for jumping on.
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So we're here to talk about some of the fun things that you're
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doing with Catamount Consulting, specifically on the ergonomics
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segment of the service offerings.
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But I guess you know, before we get into that though, Alicia
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may, it might just be helpful for any of our listeners or
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readers just to kind of, you know, give a quick overview of
0:34
Catamount Consulting and what they do.
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And you know, based out of Warrensburg, NY, but obviously
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some coverage all over the kind of the the Eastern seaboard, I
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guess we could say, right so. Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, Catamount's an awesome team.
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I've been with them for a little over a year now.
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And so they provide, they do a lot.
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So we do safety training on site for companies that need that
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presence. We do mobile hearing and drug
1:00
testing, provide leadership trainings and you know, kind of
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mindset motivational things. We're getting into the keynote
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speaking where we we speak at conferences all over the
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country. And then what I do with
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Catamount is ergonomics. And so we've launched of this
1:16
more ergonomics arm wear, we're already partnered with work
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sites, we're already working with safety and with thought
1:22
processes and, and something catamount, you know, prides
1:26
itself on and we pride ourselves on as we're, we're on the kind
1:29
of the cutting edge of things, right?
1:30
So we're not trying to be reactive.
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We're trying to anticipate, we're trying to continually
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evolve and learn and apply, you know, the latest neuroscience,
1:38
you know, the latest techniques, the latest technology to what we
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do. And so we're already at these
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work sites, we're already on the ground doing safety.
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And so we've partnered together with the ergonomics component
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where I actually can go out and we have another colleague, Dr.
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Matt Jeffs, who does the same thing that I do.
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And we're able to go out and say, hey, these are risks and
1:57
kind of preemptively address some of these things or, or
2:00
input custom stretch and flex programs.
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And, and actually one of the things we do that no one else is
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doing is we're quantifying risk. And so we're actually able,
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because one of the hardest things in ergonomics is to say,
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you know, give people a number and that quantitative data,
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right? It's like this is bad and this
2:16
idea is better, but we're able to leverage some technology to
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say, hey, listen, this is a risk of X and we're going to improve
2:23
it through this intervention by X.
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And so we're able to give people some things they can take to
2:27
upper management and that they can use to justify some of our
2:30
suggestions and our intervention.
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So kind of broadly and yes, we're all over the East Coast,
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some work in the Midwest, some work up in the Northwest, all
2:39
over the country is kind of the reach of of Catamount and I'm
2:42
the headquarters of their North Carolina office here in Central
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North Carolina. Very nice.
2:47
Yeah. So, you know, I, I feel like we
2:50
should probably, well, actually before I actually ask this
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question, one of the things like as you talk about all those
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different services that Catamount offers, I think, you
3:04
know, originally, obviously they started with a lot of the safety
3:06
training like MSHA and OSHA certifications and
3:10
recertifications and trainings. And so obviously that applies to
3:14
the, you know, we'll say the blue collar world, right, as far
3:18
as contractors and mining and you know, they cover a lot of
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construction and trades. And are are you guys working
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with other fields outside of that or is that still just the
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primary focus? No, we're working with all sorts
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of I would say primarily the top ones we work with are
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construction and mining, you know, but we're branching into
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the mindset and branching into the ergonomic space.
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We're in general industry, we're in logistics, we're in
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manufacturing. And so we're really branching
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into a lot of these different places, you know, as well as
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being able to work with the white collar, you know,
3:51
workforce in mindset training and even in some of the
3:54
ergonomic space and some of the speaking things.
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So we're, I would say the heart of cat about is always going to
3:59
be the blue collar, right? It's going to be the the men and
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women who are the industry leaders, you know, the ones who
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are keeping the backbone of America built and safe and
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thriving. But we're really spreading into
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a lot of different spaces, so. OK, Yeah, because that, you
4:12
know, obviously from working with you guys, I know a little
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bit about the the ergonomics and learning more everyday.
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And so, you know, ergonomics obviously.
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Yeah, if you're in the construction field and you're,
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you know, on your feet all day and moving and different things,
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or if you're in manufacturing and you have repetitive moments
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or movements, I'm sorry. But also like, you know,
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healthcare workers that aren't really considered trades and and
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blue collar, but still they're on their feet all day.
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They're some of them, you know, some of these hospitals are
4:42
massive and they're walking miles and miles every single
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day. And that can lead to a lot of
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issues. You know what, what I was going
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to say before was, you know, we should probably put some
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definition on ergonomics, right? Just because like, you know, my,
5:00
if you weren't in it, you would hear ergonomics and you might
5:03
think like the, the Doctor Scholl's pads that you put in
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your shoes or something along those lines.
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And, and this is so much more than orthotics or, or those
5:12
kinds of things. So can you kind of just give us
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a, an overview of what you mean by ergonomics and, and, and
5:19
specifically in the workplace? Absolutely.
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I love that question because you're right, it can mean many
5:24
different things. So many different people.
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Some people here ergonomics who think of insoles, others think
5:28
it's just stretching. Other, others think it's, you
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know, I'm going to get laid off because they're going to replace
5:33
me with a robot, right? Like it, it means a lot of
5:35
things. But really at its base, all
5:37
ergonomics is, is it's the science of matching the
5:40
workplace to the worker. And so anyone, whether I'm
5:44
working remotely at my computer, it matters how I'm sitting, it
5:48
matters how I'm focusing on what I'm doing.
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Ergonomics is important to me here.
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And just like you said, the hospital worker, the CNA that's
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moving patients and having to get people out of bed and roll
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them around and walking miles and miles, it matters a ton to
5:59
them. And they may be at different
6:01
risks than a remote office worker.
6:03
But ergonomics it it's broadest is it's just matching the
6:08
workplace to the human body. And so I like to say it's like
6:12
sitting in a folding chair, like it technically holds you, right?
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It's kind of fit to the body. But a chair with armrests and a
6:19
headrests and a lumbar support and a footrest, that is an
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ergonomic chair because it's made to fit the human body
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rather than me folding myself into a folding chair, if that
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kind of makes sense. And so, and then another part of
6:31
ergonomics, this is something that Doctor Jeff says, I love
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how he's put the put words to this and had kind of as creative
6:39
framework. And we use it at Catamount.
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So it's our cope framework. So when we think of ergonomics,
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you know, we're thinking about it in the context of injuries,
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right? So it's physical, right?
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It's all about the body. And we think of ergonomic
6:51
solutions all having to do with the body, right?
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So we're really focused in on that P of cope.
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So the C in COPE stands for cognitive, our mind, our focus,
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our distraction. The O is for organizational
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ergonomics, you know, policies and procedures, things that the
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company is doing, communication. P is the physical ergonomics,
7:10
which most of us are more familiar with.
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And then E is that environmental ergonomics?
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Because it's a whole different story if I'm doing a lifting
7:17
task in a climate controlled warehouse versus in the middle
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of July, I'm driving a truck and I'm doing deliveries in Florida,
7:24
right? Or I've been in the -20° freezer
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where they're packing and stocking pallets in that kind of
7:30
a cold place, right? We're going to run into
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different things based on the environment.
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And so when we're coming in and we're doing these assessments,
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we're not just looking at the physical.
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Of course, that's part of it. And our interventions are not
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all aimed at the physical, right?
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Because what do so many of us have?
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Well, you can't see it in our pockets, these little devices
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that are taking our attention spans and eroding them.
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And so they're actually creating entire new injury categories.
7:53
The struck by object or equipment is now labeled as a
7:57
distraction injury. So that has nothing to do with
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my body or the fact that I didn't stretch and flex.
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If I'm distracted and I step out in front of a forklift or I am
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not paying attention and I stick my hand into a pinch point.
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So we're seeing a huge number of work related injuries actually
8:11
coming from cognitive issues and distraction.
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And so when we're coming in, we're looking comprehensively
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and holistically at the job to make sure we're addressing each
8:20
of those 4 ergonomic components. And you know, I'm just curious,
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how did you get into ergonomics? I mean, I know that you, you
8:28
have a little bit of training, right, A little bit of.
8:31
Yeah, so though that's a good question too, cuz it's so I am a
8:35
physical therapist by training. I had my got my doctor of
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physical therapy degree from UNC Chapel Hill.
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And you know, when I was in school, we have to do these
8:43
clinical affiliations where we get, you know, hands on on the
8:45
job training. And on my last affiliation down
8:48
in Charlotte, I was working with this excellent physical
8:50
therapist, Susan Novak, who loved ergonomics.
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And so I actually as a student went with her to an industrial
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site that one of her patients worked at.
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Cuz she's like, I need to know what you do.
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Like this is just, if you think this is an outpatient physical
9:03
therapist too of her own time, just went with him to work
9:06
because she wanted to know better how to treat.
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I mean, she's just excellent. And so I was like, wait a
9:10
minute, we can leave the clinic so we can do this.
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I didn't even know that was possible.
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And so I was able back in 2014, I had an opportunity through
9:20
Martin Marietta to be able to go out into their quarries and do
9:23
some prevention, some education and some assessments.
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And so that's what really got me into the world was number one, I
9:30
was exposed to it as a student. And then I worked in the clinic
9:33
for years and I worked with a lot of workers compensation
9:36
patients who had had, you know, their rotator cuff repair, their
9:39
total hip, total shoulder, total knee.
9:41
And I was rehabbing them back to their jobs and I started talking
9:44
to him and I was like, oh man, you know, we can't avoid like
9:47
the car accident or the acute trauma is something heavy falls
9:50
on you, right? We're going to need to to rehab
9:52
that. But there's so many of these
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chronic injuries that over time we're having micro trauma, micro
9:57
trauma, micro trauma. And one day we have the last
10:00
piece of straw and they're putting on their sock in the
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morning, right? And they hear a pop in their
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back and they have to have surgery.
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And so I was so frustrated at how I was handcuffed working
10:09
downstream with someone on back surgery #3 and I thought, if I
10:13
could have only gotten to you 20 years ago and showed you how to
10:16
do a hip hinge, if only I could have gone in and your company
10:20
could have spent $200 to raise this thing to waist tight.
10:23
So you're not bending for seven hours a day, right?
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Tiny, tiny things that would make such a huge difference.
10:28
And so when that's the opportunity came, I thought, Oh
10:30
my goodness, it was the meeting kind of my passions because I, I
10:33
got into PT because I want to help people.
10:35
I want to help people function at their best capability, their
10:39
top tier function, whether they're at work or home or
10:41
hobbies or whatever it is. And so being able to be, you
10:45
know, upstream, as I call it, you know, most traditional
10:47
physical therapy is downstream. You're, you're getting people
10:49
after they're hurt and it's just a slog uphill all the time.
10:53
Now I have the opportunity to get in to new hires the day that
10:57
they're trained that, you know, and to come in and say, hey,
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here's how you bend 18 year old guy, like here's how you
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activate your glutes. And what I'm able to do then is
11:06
40 years down the line, those people aren't going to be on
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back surgery #5 so that's kind of how I was able to get plugged
11:11
into the ergonomics world. Very cool.
11:15
It's really fascinating how much you guys with ergonomics and
11:19
just as a company in general, how focused you are on really
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focusing on being proactive and, and future forward and, and
11:28
trying to really instill ways to prevent injury, increase safety
11:36
by all these measures, you know, upstream as you're, you're
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calling it, right? Like so, so as you look at what
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you're doing with Catamount, what, how are you guys bringing
11:47
ergonomics to your clients? Like what does that look like
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right now? Yeah, so the fun thing and kind
11:53
of the hard thing about what we do is it can look so many
11:56
different ways. And so it's it's really unique.
11:59
One thing we don't do is the cookie cutter approach when I
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don't just have a package thing that I hand them or oh, here's
12:03
their stretch and flex. Here's this, here's what I would
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do because every single work site, every single job is really
12:09
going to be different. And so we have a lot of options.
12:13
One of the big things is people are wanting, you know, ergonomic
12:16
assessments to come in and say, Hey, look at these jobs.
12:19
Tell us what you think, What could we change?
12:21
And so that's one Ave. and we, this is where we use computer
12:26
vision. So kind of like an AI powered
12:28
tool to be able to do some 3D or some motion capture where we're
12:32
able to overlay a pretty cool. There's examples of it on our
12:35
website, but a little 3D skeleton that's going to turn
12:37
red, orange or yellow based on how the joints are impacted.
12:40
So we're able to assess, Hey, here's where we think the strain
12:43
is on your joints. We have a proprietary Catamount
12:47
fatigue index where they'll just get a number because so many
12:50
ergonomic assessments, you know, they say high risk and danger
12:53
and there's that nocebo language, you know, that we've
12:55
talked about before, right? Or if I believe in negative
12:58
thought, it's going to have negative outcomes, right?
13:01
So we try to avoid that at all costs.
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And so when the reason that I created this was because I was
13:07
so sick of handing someone a Reba or a RULA.
13:11
And just to define for the listeners, there's some gold
13:14
standard ergonomic assessment tools.
13:16
They're from the 80s. They're not the best, but it's
13:18
what kind of the best we've got right now.
13:20
But the Reba is the rapid entire body assessment and it's scored
13:24
out of 15 points and it's based on a posture during a task.
13:27
And there's the RULA, the rapid upper limb assessment scored out
13:30
of seven. Also, it's more focused on the
13:32
upper extremity, but you're basically look at the worst
13:35
posture someone assumes during a task and you calculate the
13:38
score. OK.
13:38
So again, it's it's all posture. We don't take the C, the O or
13:41
the E into consideration. It's purely P, but it's at least
13:44
somewhere to start. But what we get is you get this
13:47
dark red, you're high risk. This is a immediate action
13:51
level. And what it does is it makes
13:52
people think my, is my job super unsafe, right?
13:56
And the companies are very not happy with me for coming in and
13:59
instilling fear. And then also, if a worker
14:02
knows, hold on a second, they know my job is high risk and
14:04
they're not doing anything right?
14:05
It just breeds, it breeds ickiness.
14:08
And then if I know that the company knows and they're not
14:10
going to do anything, a moral conundrum for me there as well.
14:14
You know, So what we came up with with the Catamount fatigue
14:17
Index is we still take the Reba, we take the RULA, we take that
14:19
Nyash lifting equation, but we factor them all in and we come
14:23
up with just a percentage and we say, hey, listen, this is your
14:26
relative risk of fatigue. Here's the main joints impacted.
14:30
So look, I looked at this task and we've got an you're an 8.6
14:32
out of 10 on the fatigue index. OK, So I'm not saying, Oh my
14:36
gosh, you're absolutely going to get a shoulder injury from this.
14:39
No, but there's going to be some fatigue and tiredness in that
14:41
shoulder. There's going to be some fatigue
14:42
in the low back. I'm coming in with this
14:44
recommendation and I can tell you it's going to reduce this
14:47
risk, this relative risk, this fatigue index by 20%, right?
14:51
So we're able, when we come into the jobs, that's what we're
14:53
giving them. So we're saying, I'm not just
14:55
slapping high risk on it and walking away.
14:57
And I'm not handing you, this is what I did way back when I got
15:00
started. I would hand them these big
15:02
thick packets with like a million ideas and just be like,
15:05
and it's so overwhelming to everybody, right?
15:07
So we're able to streamline and prioritize and say, hey, let's
15:10
take our highest fatigue areas, let's look at the cost, here's
15:13
your ROI on my recommendations, trying to those things matter.
15:17
And so we're doing that. But what I've noticed is if I
15:19
just come in and I make my recommendations and I do the
15:23
assessments, I know they're true and they're right and they're
15:25
good. And sometimes management knows,
15:28
but it does not translate to the frontline.
15:31
And So what I found that is so essential and it's something
15:33
that is in Catamount's blood is that education.
15:36
So if I come in, I'm not just coming in and saying here's how
15:39
you do it. Go bye, go do this.
15:41
I'm telling them why I'm getting in front of the workers.
15:44
If train the trainer is an option to do too, where we we
15:47
try to equip the trainers. If as much as I can get in front
15:49
of the front line workers, I'm like, hey guys, here's a picture
15:52
of your spine. Here's what happens to your disc
15:55
when you're bending all the time.
15:56
And here's why we recommend extension because to get a room
15:59
full of blue collar workers to put their hands on their hips
16:01
and lean back, it's difficult. But once they see what happens
16:04
to their disc when they do it, they're all they're all about
16:07
it, right? They're all about leaning back
16:08
because they understand the why. And so that's my huge passion.
16:12
I get excited and I talk real fast, but when I see that light
16:15
bulb come on for people and they get the why, they're going to be
16:18
all over it. They're going to do these things
16:20
because they understand the impact it's having and it
16:22
catamount we are all all about the why.
16:25
We're not just coming in and saying do this thing because I
16:28
said so or do this or do that. You know, no, we need to win
16:31
people over by motivating them and telling them about the why.
16:34
And so that that's really kind of our heart behind all of it.
16:37
But to answer your question, better trainings, ergonomic
16:41
assessments, custom stretch and flex programs, interventions,
16:45
new hire training, kind of you name it.
16:46
We're able to go from basic to a, you know, white glove type
16:49
service for an ergonomics program.
16:51
Yeah. Now I so tell me about the
16:54
stretch and flex, 'cause I know that's obviously that's
16:56
something that we've talked about quite a bit.
16:57
And I know it's something that as a company, Catamount talks
17:00
about a lot and it sounds like it's something that is
17:05
accessible. We'll say, yeah, so, so give us
17:08
give us the rundown on the stretch and flex.
17:10
Absolutely. So I love stretch and flexes and
17:15
catamounts is unique because we've done it in like a three
17:18
tiered system. So it kind of got a beginner
17:21
intermediate in advance because there's nothing worse than
17:23
you're just having to do the same exact thing every single
17:26
morning. And then it becomes habit, it
17:28
becomes routine. And so you know, theirs are
17:30
based on a lot of different, you know, yoga type poses.
17:33
We're incorporating multiple muscle groups, but what we've
17:35
also done is we've incorporated breath work to help with that
17:39
mind body connection, to help with that cognitive ergonomics
17:42
to get us focused. We've incorporated balance
17:44
because that's a huge area that's left unaddressed in
17:47
almost every safety program. Yet balance deficiencies are a
17:52
huge cause of slip strips and falls of different kinds of
17:54
injuries. And so we incorporate balance in
17:57
there as well. And so we're trying to, if I get
17:59
10 to 15 minutes with your employees in the morning, I'm
18:02
going to try to hit as many places as I can.
18:04
And we also with the stretch and flex, we're trying to do more
18:06
dynamic movements, you know, so there's a static stretch, right?
18:09
Hold for 15 seconds, hold for 15 seconds, Sure.
18:13
But if I can incorporate some active movements and you know,
18:16
do some, some neural releases, do do a median nerve glide in
18:20
there to get the nerves moving, get that brain body connection
18:24
firing, tighten the glutes, tighten my transverse abdominis,
18:27
all of those deep stabilizers, getting them activated in the
18:30
mornings. We're doing a whole lot more
18:32
than just a stretch and flex, right?
18:33
I don't really love the term stretch and flex as we're really
18:36
doing a whole body activation from the brain to the feet,
18:40
right, for balance. And so that's what we're doing
18:42
when we come in with companies and there is kind of a standard
18:46
flow that they've used before with companies.
18:48
But what we're doing more and more is we're creating custom.
18:51
Because if I'm working with a group of office worker ladies,
18:55
right, who are mostly in their 40s to 50s, I'm going to have
18:58
them doing a very different set than if I'm with a group of
19:01
construction workers ranging from 20 to 60 that work outside
19:04
predominantly, right? So we're trying to create these
19:06
custom programs that, that are progressive.
19:09
So that's kind of our in a nutshell.
19:12
Yeah, I, you know, I'm just curious.
19:15
It's funny because I'm thinking about this and I'm like, man,
19:17
I've been on my fair share of job sites over the last 25 years
19:22
and I don't think I've ever seen any of those men or women
19:24
warming up before starting to do their job for the day.
19:28
So I is, is that kind of like what you're suggesting and
19:32
recommending though, is that when people are, are, are they
19:36
doing it before they start their shift?
19:38
Are they doing it throughout their shift?
19:40
Like how does it work from that standpoint?
19:42
Yes, yes, all of it. All.
19:46
Of it all of it. So that's another thing is I so
19:50
like you said, most job sites are doing nothing so I am never
19:53
going to say like you're only doing stretch and flex in the
19:56
mornings that's still great. But the very best thing is I
19:59
stretch for 15 minutes and then I go sit in a loader for four
20:03
hours and then I have lunch and then I get back in my loader.
20:06
Do you think my stretches from 7637 AM are doing anything right
20:10
now? No, my recommendation and this
20:13
is something else that when I come in and I do the education,
20:15
we add in these micro. Breaks where you take 60
20:19
seconds, anyone can do it. And we have you know, special
20:22
stuff for equipment operators where hey, every two hours I
20:24
want you to get out of your loader and I want you to walk
20:26
three times around it, do 3 back bends, do 3 stretches and climb
20:29
right back in it. And what that does is it's just
20:32
enough to get blood flow to these stagnant places.
20:34
It's going to turn muscles on that we're off.
20:36
And so it's, it's are the favorite PT answer.
20:39
You know, we joke is it depends, right?
20:41
But for the most part, I, I think doing it as much as
20:45
possible. If your job isn't crazy
20:47
repetitive and you're moving all differently, like you're a
20:50
mechanic, right? And you're going to be in one
20:52
position. My big thing I teach people is,
20:54
you know, we're not in a perfect world where we can stop every
20:59
awkward posture, right? Because awkward postures are a
21:01
risk factor for muscular skeletal disorder.
21:03
But what I can teach you is to reverse your posture.
21:06
So we might have the stretch influx in the morning to wake
21:08
everything up, and then we're going to do it again after
21:09
lunch. But throughout your day with
21:12
this education component, I know that if I'm in an awkward
21:15
posture where I am crouched on my knees, leaning to the left,
21:18
twisting my head to the right, and I'm working on something
21:20
that the minute I come up from that, I'm going to turn my head
21:23
to the left, right. I'm going to, I'm going to lean
21:26
the opposite direction. I'm going to stand up, I'm going
21:28
to stretch my knees out and I'm going to go into lumbar
21:30
extension. So now I'm reversing those
21:33
movements rather than just I'm going to stand up straight after
21:36
I do it, I'm actually going to go the other way to kind of
21:39
reset, get the blood flowing, get the muscle length back to
21:42
normal. Because what we see so much is,
21:45
you know, people bend and bend and bend and then they stand up
21:47
straight or they're gripping this tool.
21:49
And what happens is we move into an anaerobic environment, a lack
21:53
of oxygen when our muscle is just clenched and clenched and
21:56
clenched without a break. And so just unclenching it isn't
22:00
always enough. We actually need to move into
22:02
some extension. We need to do some contract
22:04
relaxed behavior to flush out the waste products of that
22:08
anaerobic process, get oxygen rich, blood flowing back in
22:13
there. Because what we see so much is
22:15
things like carpal tunnel, you know, some rotator cuff issues,
22:18
they're caused by prolonged deprivations are a lack of blood
22:22
flow. So the more we can keep the
22:25
blood flowing and there's many ways to do that, the better to
22:28
prevent injury. So it's, I know these are very
22:31
long answers to very short questions, but that's kind of,
22:34
you know, we're trying. And I, I try to teach people 10
22:37
different ways to skin the cat, right?
22:39
Because I'm somebody that the reason I love ergonomics.
22:42
And you know, I got to the point where I was dreading going into
22:45
the clinic every day because I'm like, it's the same thing.
22:48
It's the same thing every day. I mean, I loved it and I loved
22:50
helping people, but as I learn more about how I'm wired, I like
22:53
to bounce around from thing to thing and project to project and
22:56
have, you know, new things. So I tried to approach, you
23:01
know, jobs the same way, say, hey, if you want to kind of
23:03
bounce, here's some ways you can squeeze.
23:05
Here's a few stretches you can do, here's a few activations you
23:08
can do, here's some breathing. And it's all going to accomplish
23:11
the same thing, which is making sure my brain and body are
23:14
connected. I'm focused, I'm present where I
23:16
am. I'm not in automatic mode
23:18
mentally. I am in my, you know, the good
23:21
part of my focused brain and I've got blood flowing
23:24
throughout my whole body and I we, I teach them ways, You know,
23:27
it's going to be different for someone that operates equipment
23:29
and grips the controls that controls and sits versus
23:32
somebody who's welding and, you know, standing and holding that
23:35
that device so. Yeah, and listen for the record
23:39
on podcasts. We love long answers.
23:41
OK, well, there you go. It's your lucky day.
23:44
You know, it it, it makes my job way easier as an interviewer if
23:48
you're given long answers. So it's, it's really
23:53
interesting. The whole thing about the
23:54
stretch and flex is kind of interesting to me just because,
23:57
you know, I don't know, I don't know if it's like humans as a
24:01
species or our culture, but we're, we're so reactive and
24:05
it's usually we, we, we wait until we have a pain so awful
24:10
that we, we can't do what we normally do, like sit, like use
24:13
the example sitting in the loader.
24:15
You know, it's like I, I'm not going to do anything about any
24:18
of this until it hurts me all day every day to be sitting in
24:21
the lower and in, in the loader and, and 'cause I got lower back
24:25
pain or 'cause my, you know, my hip flexors are tight or
24:28
whatever it is. And it's just, I do you, do you
24:32
find that, is that a challenge with what you guys do is trying
24:35
to get people to be more proactive and like, hey, don't
24:38
wait until you're sitting in the loader for 8 hours a day in
24:40
pain. Like we can just avoid that
24:42
whole situation altogether. No, that's, that's a really
24:45
great question. And yes, absolutely we run up
24:47
into that. But so a phrase that I love,
24:50
it's not mine, but like motion is lotion, right?
24:52
And we think about motion, any kind of movement, you know, your
24:56
best posture is your next posture.
24:58
The best thing you can do is move.
25:00
I try to drill these things into people's heads And yes, we do
25:03
run into that a lot where there's, there's also company
25:06
cultures of grin and bear it. This is part of it.
25:10
This is deal with it. You're, you're weak.
25:13
Are you really going to sit here and complain about pain?
25:15
Some people hide stuff. A study actually just came out
25:17
from it was a national study on musculoskeletal disorders.
25:22
I can't remember the, the name of the organization.
25:24
It's a huge thing, but 30% of people in pain at work don't
25:29
report it. That is huge.
25:32
And so the productivity, that's a big number.
25:35
So if you think about the productivity that we have no
25:38
idea that is being lost out there of 30% of people are not
25:42
reporting it. I think it's the National Safety
25:44
Council that just came out with it.
25:46
But what what happened to me is when I went out onto job sites
25:49
and this is companies that have excellent safety, there is safe
25:52
place for people to report, right?
25:53
It's not, there's no punitive stuff if you report an injury.
25:57
And I'd be out there with the safety manager and people would
25:59
come up to me and say like, my knee is killing, my shoulder's
26:02
killing me, my neck is killing me, my back is killing me.
26:04
And the safety guy's jaw is hanging.
26:05
He's like, we had no idea. And I was like, half of your
26:08
people are in agony. And they're like, what?
26:10
They'd have no clue about it, you know?
26:12
But I'm kind of the safe. And I'm like, well, I can't, I
26:15
can't assess and treat you because then we're getting into
26:17
recordable, reportable territory.
26:18
But here are some generic stretches.
26:20
So I think educating the management that hey, giving them
26:24
these numbers, telling them these facts and then having a
26:28
culture that says, you know, 'cause like I talked about
26:31
before, chronic injuries are far and above and away the most, you
26:36
know, high cause of musculoskeletals and days away
26:38
from work, work related musculoskeletal disorders,
26:40
right? Like there's the acute accidents
26:42
and then really the most of it is chronic micro trauma.
26:45
So there's something that we say, you know, in the PT world,
26:48
you are sub symptomatic. Damage is occurring, problems
26:53
are stacking up, but our bodies are phenomenal at compensation.
26:56
Okay, they it'll shift load and it'll do this and it'll do that.
27:00
But then we talked about that straw that breaks the camels
27:03
back that all of a sudden one day, 9 out of 10, I am
27:06
symptomatic. And not just symptomatic, I'm
27:08
disabled, I can't work, I cannot do my job.
27:11
And so I'm out of work. I'm in a surgery, I'm in rehab
27:14
for 6 to 8 weeks. And so nobody wants to go
27:18
through all of that. And so I think it's that
27:19
communicating upfront that, hey, listen, I'm not here to have
27:23
workers comp cases suddenly go driven through the woodwork.
27:26
But I want to encourage you guys to know this.
27:30
These are the risk factors for WMS, DS, work related
27:34
musculoskeletal disorders. These are, you know, repetition,
27:36
contact, stress, forced vibration and awkward postures.
27:39
You know, those are the physical ones.
27:41
And how can we in each of these areas educate the workforce to
27:46
reduce those risks, to be aware because shoot, I would always
27:50
tell people 75% of my job is done.
27:52
If you can look around with a fresh set of eyes and think,
27:56
huh, could we store those here? We have racks where we store
27:59
that over here. I went to this site and they had
28:01
this. Can we get that right?
28:03
I so many of my ideas come from the guys and gals that are doing
28:08
it 8/10/12 hours a day. I have such a huge respect for
28:11
the man. Just the, the work ethic and the
28:14
grit in these men and women. And I learned from them.
28:18
What have they tried? What's worked, you know, what
28:20
hasn't worked? Suggestions.
28:22
And so, you know, really being collaborative and able to come
28:25
up with solutions. And I think too, when they see
28:27
me out there, you know, I have climbed a ladder at a rock
28:31
quarry in Nova Scotia in the middle of winter.
28:34
I have been in the freezer. I've been out in the heat in
28:37
South Florida pouring sweat, carrying lumbar supports.
28:40
And but you know, I've, I've been strapped into the buddy
28:42
seat of a haul truck bouncing along.
28:44
I've, you know, I've, I've gotten out there and I think
28:46
there's some respects where I can speak there like language
28:48
and say like, I've not, I'm not just coming from an ivory tower
28:51
issuing mandates from on high of, of a perfect universe,
28:54
right? No, I've, I've done it.
28:56
I'm involved in research with the University of Florida.
28:58
We're on doing all sorts of ergonomics research and
29:00
preventing low back pain. And so I'm trying, you know, as
29:03
much as I can, I'm trying to equip myself to be able to speak
29:07
their language, but then translate it into the language
29:10
for the C-Suite and translate it into the language for the
29:13
researchers that are coming up with the the studies that are
29:15
going to affect in 10 years what we're doing right now.
29:18
And so that's kind of how we are coming at things with with
29:22
everybody. And so there are still going to
29:24
be people who don't get on board.
29:25
But that's the other reason that the employer can say, oh, well,
29:29
I don't care if you don't want to do it, you're going to do it.
29:31
And another thing I like to try is I like to have a different
29:35
person lead it every week because that forces ownership.
29:39
You have to, you know, I want them, I, I talk to them.
29:41
I want you to correct the stretches.
29:42
You know, I leave a book with descriptions.
29:45
I make sure I say, hey, if someone's having pain here,
29:47
here's modifications you can make with this stretch.
29:49
Or, you know, here's what we red flags, right?
29:52
If you ever have you do a neck movement and numbness shoots
29:54
them into your hand. Like don't, don't do that.
29:56
We're not wanting to increase pain.
29:57
But I, I've found that about having people kind of take
30:00
ownership and they tease each other and they have fun with it.
30:04
I've seen buy in from people you would have never, never thought.
30:10
And I have a exercise called the hip hinge that I would do.
30:13
It's like a sciatic nerve glide where I'd have people squat in a
30:15
hinge with their hands out in front of them.
30:17
So they all started calling it the Harley rider, you know, And
30:20
so they would have so much they like get in your Harley stands
30:23
and they'd be hysterical and they'd be laughing.
30:25
And you know, what it does too, is it starts off the day with
30:29
camaraderie. It starts off the day with a
30:32
focus on safety. Even if you're not saying it,
30:34
the very fact that the company has set aside time, carved it
30:37
out to give you guys time to do these warmups.
30:39
And then what it also does is it fosters a sense of community
30:42
because a lot of time, you know, you go to work and you're,
30:45
you're off to your separate workstations, right?
30:47
Equipment operators and the, the guys inside the plant might
30:50
never intermingle, right? Or the guys that are in, in the
30:53
distribution center, right, they're going to go to their
30:55
part and the other guys are going to go to packaging and
30:57
some are in shipping. So it brings everybody together.
31:00
And that's another really cool thing is, you know, the more
31:02
that we can foster that community and that
31:04
communication, it, it has an impact on the culture.
31:07
And that's an intangible that is worth its weight in gold, right?
31:11
To have a safety culture and a high morale and an organization
31:14
and a stretch and flex program is something that does raise
31:18
morale. It just does.
31:20
Yeah, that it, it's well, and I, I, I have to assume that there's
31:24
a, you know, of course these are these are all businesses.
31:27
And so the bottom line is, is always, you know, in our mind's
31:31
eye as far as what we're doing and what we're having team
31:34
members doing. And I have to assume that there
31:37
is a way for you guys to show like, hey, here's what workers
31:42
comp and employee injury and these things cost you.
31:46
And yes, there is a cost associated with paying your team
31:50
members to do these stretch. And you know, like, I just think
31:53
about like, yeah, I've got 10 employees doing this.
31:55
They're making 25 bucks an hour. That means I'm paying 250 bucks
31:59
an hour for people to to, to stretch and flex.
32:02
But on the other side of it, there's a really a cost savings
32:05
as well as it's just good for your employees so that you know,
32:09
you want to take care of your team.
32:10
Is it, is that fair? Is, I mean, is there a, is there
32:12
a way for you guys to be able to show that benefit?
32:15
Yeah, absolutely. And that you can get, we can get
32:17
into the weeds with it too. But you know, with an injury,
32:19
there's direct costs and then there's indirect costs.
32:22
So the direct costs are really easy to calculate, right.
32:24
What are the actual scans and doctor's visits and you know,
32:28
time away from work and you know, the sickness and absence
32:31
leave pay, all those things are the direct cost.
32:33
But then the indirect costs are having to train someone else,
32:36
right? And a loss of productivity and a
32:38
decrease in morale. And you know, all there's, they
32:40
say that, you know, indirect costs are often 200% or 250% of
32:45
direct cost. So one number that's staggering.
32:47
And this is true. One muscle strain on average has
32:52
a direct and indirect cost of $21,000.
32:56
This is a strain, like a back strain, right?
32:58
This isn't surgery. This isn't, but like one strain
33:01
is what that's what it adds up to.
33:03
So that's a really easy number to come in and say hello.
33:06
If doing this program can prevent one back sprain, your
33:10
ROI is automatically, you know, 400% or whatever, you know,
33:14
whatever. It depends on what we're coming
33:15
in to do. But that's also how we calculate
33:18
and we're giving people, hey, this is going to be your return
33:20
on investment. Like the actual hard numbers and
33:25
one thing that we've run into and this is probably the worst
33:29
companies that I've had a relationship with are, you know,
33:33
a lot of times like more middle management brings me in, right,
33:35
like AEH and S or safety manager HR, that kind of thing.
33:39
They see they're they are intimate with the front lines.
33:42
A lot of them came from the front lines.
33:44
So they know what these guys and gals are doing every single day.
33:47
So they bring me in and we create these programs, but then
33:49
we've got the upper management who is unfortunately very
33:53
removed from the day-to-day. They're staring at the red,
33:55
they're staring at the black. That's all they can see.
33:58
You know, So there was one company I worked for who it was
34:02
just atrocious what was going on.
34:03
They were having 46% turnover. They were paying $17 million a
34:09
year in new hire training, right?
34:11
And they were just hemorrhaging and then that then they were
34:13
having injuries just, and they had, unfortunately, they were
34:16
set up to be so successful. There were so many good and
34:19
possible things. And so they brought me in and I,
34:21
I spent a long time, I came in and did a full observation and I
34:24
said, hey, you guys, I could put this program together for you.
34:27
And we'd roll it out over the course of the next 18 months,
34:30
you know, and I think it had like a $35,000 price tag.
34:33
But this is a plant with 1700 employees, right?
34:34
This was a massive, massive undertaking.
34:37
And it was also an 8 hour drive away from me.
34:40
So I was like, listen, I will come in and we will.
34:42
And we addressed every barrier. We were going to do everything
34:45
and they were writing $17 million checks and I was like,
34:48
we will spread out 35 grand over a year and a half to do this for
34:52
you. And they're like too expensive
34:54
now, you know, So they are so disconnected.
34:57
And I knew what the results would have because one thing is
35:00
when I, when they bring me in to walk around and just do like a
35:04
tour, people are like, who is that?
35:06
Who's that Lady? What's she doing?
35:07
And I'm like, hi, I introduce myself and this is nothing
35:09
punitive. I'm here.
35:10
They brought me in as an ergonomic specialist to come in
35:12
and try to make your job safer. You should see people's faces.
35:17
I mean, I love it. I they're like, are you serious?
35:19
They would pay to bring you in and there's gratitude.
35:22
And so I kid you not, there was, this is, this isn't that same
35:25
facility I was describing to you.
35:27
I was there for like 2 days. It was so big.
35:29
I would try to tour multiple shifts.
35:31
And I had walked by this area that was just like really
35:33
cluttered. It was a trip hazard.
35:34
It wasn't good. You know, I was taking pictures
35:36
all over the place. And when I came back the next
35:38
day, they flagged me down and they said, hey, we look, we
35:41
clean this up and we reorganized this whole area to make it
35:43
ergonomically safer. This was me on a tour.
35:46
So that just shows the power of bringing somebody in and saying,
35:51
hey, we're caring about this and we're putting eyes on this.
35:53
They're they're taking their own initiative to make something
35:56
safer. And they created a great
35:57
solution. And I was like, Yep, that is
36:00
amazing. And now we've not only we're not
36:02
just reducing it, we've eliminated there is no more slip
36:04
and trip hazard because you've gotten these things up off the
36:06
floor. You know, So what I have found
36:08
is it's absolutely crucial to have that white to Gray to blue
36:13
collar communication stream open because if these guys know what
36:18
these guys are doing and this one can effectively go back and
36:20
forth, we're going to have so much greater success in it.
36:24
And what we've found is by using some of these numbers because
36:28
that's what speaks, right? That's the common language we
36:30
all share are the numbers are those hard data?
36:33
So when we can come in and show them, hey, this is what your
36:36
risk is. These this is what is happening.
36:39
And I'm coming in and I'm making a, this would cost $750 to buy
36:43
this little thing, but it will reduce your risk by 80%.
36:46
You know, then they're way more likely to say, holy moly, OK,
36:50
and have those numbers in front of them.
36:51
And they're not perfect, but it, it really does bridge some of
36:55
those communication barriers and gaps between, you know, that the
36:58
people who are on the front lines, the people who aren't.
37:01
Yeah, I know we're getting short on time, but I, you had
37:05
mentioned breath work before and I'm a real geek for breath work.
37:10
And I know that it I know that you guys are kind of bringing it
37:14
in into a few different areas of Catamount.
37:17
But it, it obviously you know, that mind body connection, it
37:20
plays directly in with what you're doing with ergonomics.
37:23
And I'm just, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting because I
37:26
know I saw Scott and Stacy do a talk the other day and they were
37:31
talking about breath work. And it was in my mind, I was
37:35
like, uh oh, they're, they're going to the woo side of things
37:38
here, you know, and they're talking about breath work, you
37:41
know, and I was like, I wonder how this is going to be received
37:43
by this crew. And it was, it was cool because
37:47
like I saw a lot of people start taking notes and like be very
37:50
interested in the breath, breath work side of things, which is
37:53
very refreshing to, to see and to, to witness.
37:58
Tell me a little bit about how you guys are bringing that in
38:01
and, and kind of making it more, you know, real world.
38:05
Like, you know, like up up until the last few years, I feel like
38:09
breath work was something that only people at yoga studios and
38:11
that burned a lot of incense really talked about.
38:14
And, you know, now it's, it's becoming more and more relevant.
38:18
The military's adopting things like box breathing.
38:21
You know, there's a lot more science and studies coming out
38:24
about about breathwork, so give me a little bit about how you
38:28
guys are implementing that and how you're getting it to be
38:30
accepted. I think is interesting as well.
38:33
No, absolutely. And you're very right.
38:35
And it has always been woo and it's really about how we frame
38:38
it. And so framing it as this is
38:41
neuroscience, right? So, I mean, different crowds,
38:44
we're going to frame it differently.
38:45
You know, one thing we we've joked about is, you know, when
38:47
you're in these blue collar, you're not wanting to talk
38:50
about, well, the breath and the the connection of your butt.
38:53
No, but. Hey this.
38:54
This is the thing done in martial arts, right?
38:57
This is the way to control. This is the way to harness,
38:59
increase strength. This is the way to kind of
39:02
hijack the brain systems. And it's a biohack, right?
39:05
Or a neurohack. People really respond to those
39:08
kind of things and it when we talk about how we connect a
39:11
distraction to being run over or, or having these injuries and
39:15
we say, you know, everyone can relate to smartphones and
39:18
everyone can relate to degraded attention spans and Ding, Ding,
39:21
Ding, right. So when we say, hey, what this
39:23
does is we have an automatic, you know, kind of that robot
39:27
part of our brain. And then we have our salient
39:29
part of our brain where we're we're present and we're focused
39:31
and we're grounded and breath work is a vehicle to get us out
39:34
of 1 into the other. Or we've actually have studies
39:37
where pain is reduced when we do this box breathing.
39:41
We're actually able to reduce anxiety, we're able to bring our
39:45
blood pressure down by doing some of these things.
39:49
And so communicating again, not just how we breathe, but why,
39:53
What is it doing in our mind? What is it doing in our body and
39:56
how does it tie in exact? Why would a loader operator care
40:00
whatsoever? But if he's been to the doctor
40:02
and he's got a 2 pack a day habit and four mountain Dews a
40:05
day and they've been talking to him about his blood pressure,
40:07
you know, we're going to be able to say, hey, OK, well we need to
40:10
stop that. We need to get some better
40:11
vending machines and we need to address cardiovascular fitness,
40:14
which we do all of that, but at the same time.
40:16
Hey, do you get stressed? You know, is this a stressful
40:19
work environment? And do you find yourself making
40:21
decisions you wouldn't ordinarily make or, or
40:24
forgetting things? Here's a way to prevent that.
40:26
And when I say I just have people, I say, hey, just try it.
40:29
Would you just try it one time for me?
40:30
And people are like, oh, I feel better, I feel calmer.
40:34
And so I think experience always beats an explanation, it beats
40:39
education. So making it experiential,
40:42
having them feel it, having them experience it, you know, that's
40:45
worth me talking for two hours, right?
40:47
If we can just all do it together.
40:48
So that's kind of, that's at least my approach.
40:50
I know Scott and Stacy might have a little bit of a
40:52
different, you know, how they approach it with more of the
40:54
mindset mastery and the leadership type skills.
40:56
But that's how I tie it into the the cognitive.
41:00
We tie it into the organizational by making us do
41:02
it as a group. It's of course physical by its
41:04
very nature. And then we're going to do it a
41:05
little different based on the environment we're in.
41:08
Amazing. I love it.
41:09
Yeah, I, I think, I don't think I mean, I know that like breath
41:15
work is it's like the it's how you hack your nervous system,
41:18
right. Exactly.
41:20
So many different things just by breathing in a different way
41:23
that can give you a benefit depending on the situation,
41:26
whether you're trying to excite your nervous system or calm it
41:28
down or, you know, it's, there's a lot of cool, cool things about
41:32
breathing that I just feel like most people don't know.
41:35
And about, you know, the fact that every time you inhale, your
41:38
heart rate increases. Every time you exhale, your
41:40
heart rate decreases. And just those two things, you
41:43
can modify them to have real effect on your, on your
41:45
Physiology. It's really cool stuff.
41:47
So it is really cool. And not only that, but one of
41:50
the big things I hammer in I, I like to talk about breath work,
41:53
but also how are you breathing? So one of the things I do every
41:57
single time I do an education course is I tell people, put one
41:59
hand on your chest and one hand on your belly and I want you to
42:01
take a deep breath for me. And then they do it.
42:04
So I see this a lot and I say, hey, if you felt your shoulders
42:09
go up towards your ears when you take the breath, what you're
42:11
doing is you're not. Your diaphragm is compromised
42:15
and you are breathing with secondary muscles because you
42:16
know this mic after you complete a run.
42:18
And we need to get air in and out of those lungs.
42:20
We need to get oxygen in and out fast.
42:22
We've got our scalenes, we've got our upper trapezius, we've
42:24
got these accessory muscles that elevate our first ribbon.
42:28
We get that air in and out because our our bodies need it.
42:31
But what happens is when we sit and we collapse, I know you guys
42:34
can't really see, but our diaphragm runs underneath our
42:36
rib cage and when we put pressure on a muscle, it tells
42:40
it to turn off. You know, so just like you ever
42:43
get a crazy muscle spasm and our instinct is to squeeze it, our
42:47
instinct is to grab it and put pressure into it.
42:49
So I tease people a lot. Now, this isn't directly related
42:52
to breath, but we're not built to sit.
42:54
Our bodies were not designed to sit in a chair all day long.
42:58
We were designed to kind of squat and we were designed to
43:01
run and to walk, but not to sit like we do.
43:03
So our glutes are arguably the most important muscles that
43:08
protect our low backs. So right now, what are your
43:12
glutes and my glutes hearing? They're hearing turn off, turn
43:15
off, turn off, turn off. So when I go to stand up and
43:18
lift something, I'm going to be recruiting my low back muscles.
43:21
I'm going to be recruiting my hamstrings.
43:22
My glutes are OK. So I teach people, Yeah, I call
43:26
it dead butt syndrome, right? To make people don't laugh.
43:28
It's not a real thing. But so many of us can't isolate
43:31
our glutes. So for the diaphragm, it's the
43:33
same thing. When I sit in a caved forward
43:35
position all day and I'm not doing anything ever to activate
43:38
my diaphragm muscle, I'm not able to get up under there.
43:40
I don't know how to do it with my fingers.
43:42
I don't know how to do activations with my hands.
43:44
And I'm breathing all day long like this.
43:47
And So what that leads to is a rounding of the upper back that
43:50
leads to that forward head posture.
43:51
It leads to tightness through the traps and upper back.
43:54
It leads to more of a rounding of that thoracic spine.
43:56
And then guess what? My diaphragm is hearing even
43:58
more of turn off, turn off, turn off.
44:00
So it's this vicious cycle. So I am all, if you can't tell,
44:04
I'm all about extension and reversing and opening those
44:07
things up. But we get people and there's
44:09
exercises that I take them through.
44:10
But when you take a deep breath in, this hand should not move.
44:14
It should be, it should be my belly expanding 360° as a
44:20
diaphragmatic breath and that is going to increase the quality of
44:24
each breath. It's going to conserve energy in
44:26
my body and I'm going to be more productive at work just based on
44:30
the way I change my breathing. So those are the other things we
44:33
can talk to people about it. I forgot to mention that a
44:35
minute ago that we are increasing productivity.
44:38
If I take 15 minutes to stretch in the morning, we're actually
44:41
having a workforce that's probably being an hour's worth
44:44
more productive right throughout the day.
44:45
So we're actually seeing an increased impact.
44:48
But unfortunately we can't quantify those are intangibles.
44:50
But when people are feeling better and they're not having
44:53
30% of your crew is in hidden pain, we're going to see better
44:57
work. OK.
44:57
So that's kind of that's kind of how I I like the breath work
45:01
that I start with the found because what I found is most
45:04
people aren't breathing right, let alone we need to head into
45:08
the breath work. So I like to do that
45:09
foundational. How are you taking a breath
45:11
first? Yeah.
45:12
Or they're holding their breath. Or they're holding their breath.
45:15
Or they're holding their. Oh my God, I had so many people.
45:17
I know I talked about this and, and I'll and in the
45:20
conversation, I'll watch them do it.
45:21
They start holding their breath. I'm like, do you realize you're
45:23
not even breathing right now? But people do it.
45:26
They don't even know they're not breathing.
45:27
They're just holding their breath.
45:29
Absolutely. And then again, that's bringing
45:30
awareness to it. They're gonna be like, wait, I'm
45:32
doing what? Right.
45:33
And then we could get into the conversation about what's your
45:35
resting tongue posture and what's the straight, Are you a
45:37
mouth breather? Are you snoring?
45:38
Cuz all of those things are gonna have an impact on all of
45:41
it. So.
45:42
Yeah. Tape the mouth, breathe through
45:44
the nose, Activate. Different mouth tape.
45:46
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know.
45:48
We don't want to get we. Don't want to get too crazy, but
45:52
then your workers won't complain if you tape all their mouths
45:55
shut. Either I can't I can't wear
45:56
mouth tape my beard. It it just doesn't it doesn't
46:00
doesn't work doesn't work. I see you can just.
46:03
Shave like a an Oval. How funny would that be?
46:06
I would look ridiculous, but it would be all for the mouth tape.
46:09
I'm doing it for the breath work guys.
46:10
That's right. You're you're, you're practicing
46:13
what you preach. Alicia, I, I don't want to keep
46:17
you on here all day, so I, I really appreciate your time
46:20
coming on, especially with such short notice.
46:22
If people want to learn more about you, about Catamount,
46:25
about how they you guys are helping companies, where can
46:28
they find you? Our website's probably the best
46:31
place to go. Has explanations for everything
46:32
we do. It's
46:33
www.catamountconsultingllc.com so that's probably the quickest,
46:38
easiest way it links you to. Our Facebook and.
46:40
Instagram. And you got, yeah, you got the
46:42
socials going on, the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the Linkedins,
46:45
all the stuff. So, well, thank you so much for
46:47
joining and coming on and and talking to us about ergonomics.
46:51
Really appreciate it. Absolutely appreciate you having
46:53
me. Yeah, absolutely, of course.
46:56
Thanks everybody for listening. You know, check us out buying
46:58
local dot US is our media site. You can find all of our news
47:01
articles, our podcasts, check out our other podcasts.
47:05
We have, of course, Blue Collar Startup, which is one of our
47:08
more popular podcasts. We also got a newer podcast with
47:11
Steven Zabala from Green Fork and that is called Food for
47:15
Thought. Definitely check that out.
47:16
That focuses a lot on health and Wellness, a lot of the kind of
47:18
stuff that we're talking about today.
47:20
And of course, Apple, Spotify, Rumble and YouTube is where you
47:24
can watch and listen to all of our episodes.
47:26
So thanks everybody for listening and you'll hear from
47:28
us next week.