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#722 The Truth About Consequences with Dr Ross Greene · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers Now. Yesterday on the
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  Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast, I joined doctor Ross Green. He is
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  Speaker 1: the author of The Explosive Child and associate clinical professor
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  Speaker 1: at Harvard Medical School. We were having a great conversation
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  Speaker 1: about his CPS model, the collaborative and Proactive Solutions model
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  Speaker 1: that he outlines in his book The Explosive Child. That
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  Speaker 1: conversation continues today. Ross, thank you so much for being
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  Speaker 1: here again.
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  Speaker 2: I appreciate you invading me.
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  Speaker 1: Ross when I was working through The Explosive Child some
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  Speaker 1: time ago. Now, I came across a mathematical formula. And
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  Speaker 1: normally this is the kind of thing that would turn
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  Speaker 1: anybody off any kind of a parenting book, because hang on,
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  Speaker 1: I'm reading parenting, I'm not reading maths. This is not
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  Speaker 1: how I want to spend my Friday night. But it
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  Speaker 1: struck me as being such a profoundly important formula. I'd
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  Speaker 1: love to unpack it with you for a couple of minutes.
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  Speaker 1: Just now, you describe the formula as such, inflexibility plus
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  Speaker 1: inflexibility equals melt down. Can you talk about this in
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  Speaker 1: the context of an explosive child, or in fact, in
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  Speaker 1: the context of just I think any relationship, really the.
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  Speaker 2: Kid is already inflexible by nature. That's inflexibility number one.
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  Speaker 2: If your stance toward the kid is equally inflexible, perhaps
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  Speaker 2: in an effort to show the kid whose boss, perhaps
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  Speaker 2: in an effort to teach the kid a lesson, they'll
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  Speaker 2: never forget all these things that we think we're supposed
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  Speaker 2: to be doing as parents. So that's inflexibility number two.
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  Speaker 2: If that's your equation, then it's not going to be pretty. Now.
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  Speaker 2: The addendum to that is that doesn't mean you're a pushover.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of people take inflexibility plus inflexibility equals melt
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  Speaker 2: down to me and okay, so my kid's inflexible already,
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  Speaker 2: then I have to be perfectly flexible. Where do I
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  Speaker 2: have influence at that point? No one said that we
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  Speaker 2: are replacing your inflexibility with one hundred percent flexibility. It's
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  Speaker 2: just that the math equation still holds. If you pair
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  Speaker 2: two inflexible people with each other, it's not going to
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  Speaker 2: be pretty. That's where the problem solving process comes in.
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  Speaker 2: This is just not about being inflexible with somebody who's
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  Speaker 2: already inflexible. This is about proactively and collaboratively solving the
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  Speaker 2: problems that you are being inflexible about in the first place,
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  Speaker 2: so that there's really no inflexibility left in the equation.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk about timing here, because so often parents will say, well,
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  Speaker 1: my child's being inflexible. I know that I'm supposed to
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  Speaker 1: be flexible here, which means that we need to have
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  Speaker 1: a collaborative and productive conversation. But if we reflect on
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  Speaker 1: the high emotions equals on intelligence idea, how do how
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  Speaker 1: do you communicate with parents around the idea that we
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  Speaker 1: obviously need to find a solution really quickly because there's
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  Speaker 1: a problem right here, right now. But this isn't necessarily
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  Speaker 1: the time to sit down and try to work out
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  Speaker 1: a collaborative, proactive solution because we're going to end up
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  Speaker 1: with a meltdown. And I guess the other challenge is
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  Speaker 1: so many parents will say, but I have the right
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  Speaker 1: to be inflexible because I'm thirty years older than this
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  Speaker 1: child or forty years older than this child, and I
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  Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about. I know that I'm right.
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  Speaker 1: They need to listen to me.
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  Speaker 2: I have the right because I'm thirty years older to
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  Speaker 2: make a great big mess out of something that didn't
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  Speaker 2: have to be a great big mess in the first place.
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  Speaker 1: And yet so many parents will hold fastest to that
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  Speaker 1: right in the moment. We're so right.
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  Speaker 2: The goal of the CPS model is to get people
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  Speaker 2: out of the moment. Yeah, whatever expectation this kid is
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  Speaker 2: having difficulty meeting right now, I promise you it's not
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  Speaker 2: the first time. In fact, it's probably the fiftieth time.
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  Speaker 2: Why we are still dealing with it in the heat
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  Speaker 2: of the moment when it is entirely preble is probably
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  Speaker 2: because we haven't yet made a list of all of
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  Speaker 2: the expectations the kid is having difficulty meeting and prioritize
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  Speaker 2: that list, so we know the unsolved problems we're trying
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  Speaker 2: to solve right now, and we know the ones that
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  Speaker 2: we're trying to put on hold right now. The first
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  Speaker 2: edition of The Explosive Child was mostly about solving problems
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  Speaker 2: in the heat of the moment. Every addition since then
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  Speaker 2: has been about solving problems proactively, which simply means making
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  Speaker 2: your list of every single expectation your child is having
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  Speaker 2: difficulty meeting reliably whether they can meet it sometimes and
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  Speaker 2: not others it's still an unsolved problem. Deciding which two
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  Speaker 2: or three you're going to start working on first, and
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  Speaker 2: starting to solve those problems proactively, not just collaboratively. In
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  Speaker 2: the CPS model as well as in other places, we
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  Speaker 2: would call that get out in front of it. If
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  Speaker 2: you don't get out in front of it, you're going
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  Speaker 2: to be behind the eight ball every single time and saying, well,
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  Speaker 2: what am I supposed to do? I've got time pressure,
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  Speaker 2: I'm in the heat of the moment. That is not
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  Speaker 2: a given. You make your list, You're not going to
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  Speaker 2: be in the heat of the moment anymore. As we
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  Speaker 2: frequently say to the parents we work with, I'm going
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  Speaker 2: to get you out of the heat of the moment,
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  Speaker 2: but you need your list first.
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  Speaker 1: At which point you then sit down with your child
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  Speaker 1: and you ask them what's up. You seem to be
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  Speaker 1: having difficulty to go back to the language, you seem
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  Speaker 1: to be having difficulty here, what's up? And then you
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  Speaker 1: work through that collaborative conversation where you explore their world,
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  Speaker 1: make sure that they understand what the expectations and the
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  Speaker 1: limits are, and then work on solutions together that are
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  Speaker 1: satisfactory for both parties. To the extent that you can.
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  Speaker 2: You got it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, beautiful Ross. One more big question that I think
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  Speaker 1: every parent will want to hear an answer to. You
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  Speaker 1: have an entire chapter devoted to the truth about consequences.
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  Speaker 1: This is the favorite topic of mine and I love
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  Speaker 1: talking about it, but I love the way that you
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  Speaker 1: articulate the ideas in this chapter. Would you just help
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  Speaker 1: parents to get a sense of what the truth really
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  Speaker 1: is about consequences and how they impact on a child's
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  Speaker 1: ability to either be flexible and adaptible and to tolerate
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  Speaker 1: frustration well, and all the things that we've talked about,
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  Speaker 1: the emotion regulation and so on. What's the truth about consequences?
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  Speaker 2: The truth about consequences is that they're overrated and we
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  Speaker 2: rely on them much too heavily. There's other aspects of
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  Speaker 2: parenting that are far more important than consequences. But the
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  Speaker 2: bottom line is, consequences are behavior modification strategies. What you're
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  Speaker 2: consequencing our behaviors you don't like, and you're rewarding the
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  Speaker 2: behaviors you do like, and you're punishing the behaviors you
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  Speaker 2: don't like. Just one problem with that. There's a problem
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  Speaker 2: that's causing that behavior. There's an expectation your child is
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  Speaker 2: having difficulty meeting that's causing that behavior. Concerning behaviors don't
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  Speaker 2: occur out of the blue. They occur when a kid
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  Speaker 2: is having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. And the truth
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  Speaker 2: about consequences is that they do not solve any problems.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm quite convinced that they don't teach the skills
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  Speaker 2: that these kids are found to be lacking. And so
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  Speaker 2: that's why I'm saying that they're overrated. Yes, rewarding, rewarding,
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  Speaker 2: and punishing. Behavior modification, what is known as parent management training,
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  Speaker 2: is an evidence based approach. It's evidence based for modifying behavior.
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  Speaker 2: That's what consequences are good at. And I was trained
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  Speaker 2: in consequences early in my career. That's how I was trained.
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  Speaker 2: But they don't solve the problems that are causing that behavior.
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  Speaker 2: So evidence based though they might be, here's what I say.
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  Speaker 2: We can no longer be satisfied with merely improving a
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  Speaker 2: kid's behavior. If the problems that are causing that behavior
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  Speaker 2: remain unsolved, it's not enough. And the best news is this,
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  Speaker 2: if we solve the problem that's causing the behavior collaboratively
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  Speaker 2: and proactively, not only is the problem solved, the behaviors
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  Speaker 2: that were being caused by that problem subside. We've all
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  Speaker 2: heard the cliche behavior is communication. All concerning behavior communicates
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  Speaker 2: is that there's an expectation the kid is having difficulty meeting.
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  Speaker 2: Once that problem is solved, the need for concerning behavior
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  Speaker 2: is gone and the need for consequencing the behavior is gone.
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  Speaker 1: I love the way you articulate that. I've come under
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  Speaker 1: fire from some people who have very strong opinions about
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  Speaker 1: how we should be dealing with children and the consequences
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  Speaker 1: that they need to face for saying quite explicitly, I
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  Speaker 1: have to the personal goal, and it's something that I
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  Speaker 1: encourage the parents that I work with to have as
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  Speaker 1: a goal to never get my children in trouble. My
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  Speaker 1: goal is to not get them in trouble. I don't
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  Speaker 1: want to be punishing them. I don't want to be
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  Speaker 1: bribing them. I don't want to be sticking them in
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  Speaker 1: their room. I don't want to be threatening them. My
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  Speaker 1: goal is to never get them in trouble. And some
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  Speaker 1: people will misinterpret that as me becoming permissive laisse fair,
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  Speaker 1: letting the children have no rules to whatever they want.
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  Speaker 1: But to the contrary consistent with what you've described. When
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  Speaker 1: I see that we've got a challenge or a problem
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  Speaker 1: or a difficulty in our home, that becomes now an
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  Speaker 1: opportunity for connection. It becomes an opportunity for communication, It
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  Speaker 1: becomes an opportunity for flexibility and adaptability and development of
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  Speaker 1: frustration tolerance and emotion regulation and ultimately problem solving. And
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  Speaker 1: if we solve those problems effectively, we never need to
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  Speaker 1: get anyone in trouble in our home ever. And it
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  Speaker 1: feels amazing to not be getting the kids in trouble.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the ultimate for me, it's the ultimate goal.
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  Speaker 1: Don't get the kids in trouble, just work solutions when
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  Speaker 1: problems arise.
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  Speaker 2: This paradigm that if you're not consequencing you must be
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  Speaker 2: being passive and permissive is absolute total bs. You have
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  Speaker 2: lots of options besides consequencing. They don't make you passive,
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  Speaker 2: they don't make you permissive. In my opinion, punishing a kid,
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  Speaker 2: at least on the surface of it, is a heck
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  Speaker 2: of a lot easier than solving a problem with a kid.
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  Speaker 2: It's harder over the long haul because you're solving nothing
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  Speaker 2: by consequencing the kid, but it's not hard to say
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  Speaker 2: to a kid, you just lost TV for a week.
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  Speaker 2: Look how easy that was. Right, Sitting down with a
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  Speaker 2: kid to solve a problem much more difficult. But only
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  Speaker 2: one of those two things is actually going to solve
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  Speaker 2: the problem.
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  Speaker 1: Russ. Your book is The Explosive Child revised and updated
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  Speaker 1: and you approach for understanding and pairing easily frustrated chronically
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  Speaker 1: inflexible children. People can get that online wherever they want.
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  Speaker 1: You provide loads of resources for parents who have rigid
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  Speaker 1: and inflexible children, explosive children, children who don't regulate particularly well.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that your resources are absolutely worth shouting
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  Speaker 1: from the rooftops. If people want to learn more about
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  Speaker 1: what you do and how your work can help their family,
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  Speaker 1: where should they be visiting? Where would you send them?
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  Speaker 2: Lives Indebalance dot org l ivees in the Balance dot
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  Speaker 2: org Lives in the Balance is the nonprofit that I've
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  Speaker 2: founded in two thousand and nine, and the first goal
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  Speaker 2: of me founding Lives in the Balance was to provide
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  Speaker 2: all kinds of free resources to people who wanted to
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  Speaker 2: learn more about this model without them necessarily having to
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  Speaker 2: buy a book. So the website is better than it's
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  Speaker 2: ever been. More resources than there have ever been. We're
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  Speaker 2: constantly adding to it. It's their waiting for people and
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  Speaker 2: lives Inndebalance dot org works just as well on the
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  Speaker 2: internet in our Sustralia as it does here in the
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  Speaker 2: United States.
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  Speaker 1: Lives Inthebalance dot org. We will link to that in
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  Speaker 1: the show notes. Also a quick plug. It's very very
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  Speaker 1: early days, but we were chatting before I press the
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  Speaker 1: record button. You're heading to Australia. I'm sure people will
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  Speaker 1: be excited to hear that limited information at the moment.
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  Speaker 1: But if people follow you on Facebook or check your website,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure that come. Did you say it was September?
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  Speaker 2: September, I'll be in Australia for three weeks and like
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  Speaker 2: eight or ten different cities.
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  Speaker 1: Wonderful. Well, I'm looking forward to catching up with you
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  Speaker 1: in personal and you when you show up here on
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  Speaker 1: our shores. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Ross, thanks for having me on.
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  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: more information about what we've talked about today, check the
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  Speaker 1: show notes or Lives inthebalance dot org and as always
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  Speaker 1: a whole lot of great info to help make your
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  Speaker 1: family happier is also available at happy families dot com
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  Speaker 1: dot au