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The Film the BBC Wouldn’t Air · Question Everything

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: It was April 2024, and Ramita Navai and Ben DePere
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: were reporting on Israel's attacks on hospitals and healthcare workers
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: in Gaza. The Israeli military had just completed a two-week
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: raid of the largest medical complex in Gaza, al-Shifa Hospital. Doctors, patients,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and people who were taken sheltered inside the building were killed.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: The facility was in ruins. targeting hospitals and medical personnel intentionally,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: that violates international law and it could be a war crime.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: And as the weeks went on, Israel appeared to be
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: doing this more and more. Romita and Ben are veteran journalists.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: They wanted to get a team on the ground in
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Gaza to see what was happening to healthcare facilities and
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: get it out to the world. They partner with the
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: BBC to produce an hour-long documentary film, which will give
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the story a huge audience and resources. This is Romita.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: At the time, I absolutely believed in the BBC. There
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: are great people at the BBC, and I still believe
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: in it as an organization. But I really, really believed
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: in it fully then.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: But as Ramita and Ben started to reach out to
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: people in Gaza, to local journalists who could help them
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: report there, because Israel doesn't let outside reporters in, as
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: well as to sources, to doctors, medics, and others.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: All these Palestinians told us that they thought the BBC
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: would never run our film and And we really had
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: to try and persuade them to talk to us because
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: they didn't and don't trust the BBC. And I really
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: persuaded people. You know, there was a case where I
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: got on the phone to persuade someone. We were in
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: the West Bank. And I said, listen, I'm going to
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: pass you over. And Ben spoke to him, what, 45
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: minutes an hour, telling him there was no way the
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: BBC would not run his interview.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: He was convinced the BBC never would.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: That's Ben, in case it wasn't clear.
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: And I was quite shocked he felt that way. But actually,
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: he was 100% right.
• 1:59
  Speaker 5: They all were.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: From KCRW and Placement Theory, this is Question Everything. I'm
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Brian Reid. Today, the battle to get a story told.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Two journalists bring back evidence of war crimes in Gaza.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: They've got the facts and the footage. But the BBC
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: refuses to air the film. Having your stories killed, it's
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: part of being a journalist. We kill plenty of stories here.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Sometimes because the reporting doesn't bear out. Sometimes because news
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: moves on and a story loses its relevance. Sometimes the
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: story's just not good enough. In fact, when I worked
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: at This American Life, there was a line in our
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: employee handbook that said, killing a story that's good but
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: not great is a victory. So I am a believer
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: in killing stories. But sometimes killing a story can be
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: a scandal and even immoral. That's the question raised by
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: what happened to Ramita and Ben. Stick around. for the
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: story of how two journalists fought to get their urgent
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: reporting onto one of the largest news outlets in the
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: world and lost. There's been tons of criticism of how
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: big media organizations are covering Gaza, but it's rare to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: get the chance to peel back the curtain and see
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: what exactly is happening on the inside of those organizations
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: and how political pressure is influencing the specific decisions being
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: made by people within these huge bureaucracies. Decisions about which
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: stories run, what's covered, the language that's used in stories
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: that do run, and the stories that are killed. That's
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: exactly what we get to see with this reporting by
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: our producer Sophie Kazis about the BBC.
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: Here's Sophie. I've been following how journalists have been covering
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: Gaza for a while. And one day, while scrolling on
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: social media, I came across a post from Ben about
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: the documentary he produced with Ramita. He asked, why is
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: it so difficult to make documentaries about the biggest and
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: worst assault on civilians this century? The BBC had dropped
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: their film, and I wanted to know why. What that
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: process looked like from the inside. Ben and Ramita had
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: both worked in news and documentary for decades, racking up
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: awards and accolades. Ben's a British journalist who worked at
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: top outlets, including for 10 years as news editor at
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: one of the BBC's main competitors, Channel 4. Ramita's a
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: British-Iranian journalist who's reported from over 40 countries, often in
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: hostile environments. She's a big enough deal that she appeared
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: as herself in a scene with Mandy Patinkin in an
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: episode of Homeland.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Come on, Sol, make some news. It's been three weeks.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: At least give us a sense of how it's going
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: so far.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: It's going. From what I understand, there's a nice lamb
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: kabza on the menu tonight.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, how about off the record then?
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: So they're both long in the tooth, as Ramita puts it,
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: which helped them get reluctant sources to talk to them.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: The Palestinians who were mistrustful of the BBC, the reason
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: they gave interviews ultimately was because they trusted us as individuals.
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: They started reporting on the ground a year ago, in
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: September 2024. Ramida, the lead reporter and narrator of the film,
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: and Kareem Shah, the director, went to Egypt, Israel, and
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: the occupied West Bank. And they partnered with two Palestinian
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: producers who were in Gaza, Jabba Badwan and Osama al-Ashi.
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: Jabba and Osama both worked on a previous film for
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: Ben's company, earning Jabba six awards. For this new film,
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: Jabba and Osama start going inside hospitals and interviewing doctors
• 5:46
  Speaker 5: who are working under some of the most difficult and
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: frightening conditions imaginable. There are shortages of medicine and other
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: basic supplies, not to mention fuel, food, and clean water.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: Sometimes hospital staff work in complete darkness, with bullets flying,
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: bombs falling all around them.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: We are in the theater, in the operating room. Full darkness,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: no water, no electricity. But we have a hero, surgeons,
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: in Gaza.
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: Jabba and Osama, the Palestinian producers in Gaza, are working
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: in these same conditions, risking their lives to gather the footage.
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: The team starts observing tactics that the Israeli military is
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: repeating at hospital after hospital. Here's Ramida.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: One of the first things that happens when... the Israeli
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: army sets its sights on this hospital, is that it
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: goes for the infrastructure. So solar panels will be hit.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: All the facilities containing oxygen canisters will be hit. They'll
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: go for the energy supplies. Specific wards will be hit.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: You know, maternity wards, children's wards, cancer wards. You know,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: they're very targeted. Everybody will be forced to evacuate.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: They attacked a very populated area.
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: The bodies of these children at sea, massacre, massacre.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Quadcopters and drones, armed drones, would target anyone in scrubs
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: inside the hospital.
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: And Ben and Ramida, they started getting other very disturbing tips.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: We heard that doctors were going missing. Soldiers were taking
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Palestinian doctors away from checkpoints, sometimes by name. They were
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: taken away from hospitals in Gaza. There were cases of
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: doctors being taken from operating theatres.
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: And who were you hearing that from?
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: It was a group of international workers who had been
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: working in Gaza for very many years, who had helped
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: train Gazan doctors. And they were being told by their
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: colleagues that doctors and healthcare workers were going missing.
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: So their team starts trying to verify this.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: I remember I was having a conversation with a Palestinian
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: doctor who had recently returned from Gaza to London. And
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: he had been at the Netzerim checkpoint. And he had
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: witnessed anyone in scrubs being taken aside. He was really
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: quite scared.
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: They get interviews with several doctors who describe being detained
• 8:34
  Speaker 5: by Israeli forces, some for as long as four months.
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: but none ever get charged with any crimes.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Another very clear pattern. Every single one of them was tortured.
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: Romita and Ben's team, they obtain images of black sites
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: where detainees, including doctors and healthcare workers, were held.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: These are makeshift locations where there's obviously no judicial oversight. So,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: you know, football stadiums. One was a former UN school.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Men are stripped. They're held in the open space. I mean,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: there was one man, he was too traumatized to be
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: interviewed on camera, and he'd been held at a backside
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: for three months.
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: The journalists find that some health care workers have been
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: held in detention for more than a year. Others have
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: died in detention, like orthopedic surgeon Adnan Al-Bursh. Ramita spoke
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: with a doctor who'd been detained alongside Al-Bursh.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: What did you think when you heard Adnan had died
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: in prison?
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: He says, I don't like the word died. He was murdered.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: He was killed.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: In one way or another, it was as a result
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: of torture.
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: In one way or another, it was as a result
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: of torture. Israel claims that armed Palestinian groups were using
• 10:03
  Speaker 5: the hospitals for military purposes, and that's why they targeted
• 10:07
  Speaker 5: the facilities. Hamas has denied those allegations, and the United
• 10:11
  Speaker 5: Nations found there's not enough evidence to support Israel's claims.
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: In fact, in December 2024, While Ben and Ramita were
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: working on their film, the UN released a report showing
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: Israel's attacks on the hospitals were part of a pattern
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: that they replicated across Gaza, destroying almost every hospital there.
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: But official reports, they're not as visceral and personal as
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: the documentary team's footage. Ben and Ramita are working hard
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: to get their film out as soon as possible. And
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: by that December, when the UN report comes out, they
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: have a first cut. They show it to their editor.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: Everything seems fine. They make some changes and get a
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: second cut ready. It's all very standard. The next phase
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: is script edits. They say that's when they start noticing
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: the first signs of trouble.
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: When we got into the edit, there was quite a
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: lot of pushback on some of the sharper points of
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: the journalism process.
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: Ben and Romita worked with editors, producers and other journalists,
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: plus a guy representing BBC's editorial policies. They don't want
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: to give those names because they say those people were
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: just following orders from above. We'll get into that later.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: They started saying, well, that's a very strong thing to say.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: What would Camera say about that?
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: And what would a guy called David Collier think? Camera.
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: Camera. is a media watchdog that aggressively calls out reporting
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: it deems to be anti-Israel. Same with David Collier, a
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: vocal pro-Israel critic of the BBC. Ramita and Ben were
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: shocked that their editors mentioned these names.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: And I said, well, why do we care about what
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: they think?
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: It was the first time in my 22-year career of
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: covering dozens and dozens of countries that ever in an
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: editorial meeting a lobbyist is named. or a lobby group
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: has been named. And really, I found it extraordinary that
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: the BBC were allowing pro-Israel lobby groups to influence and
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: inform their journalism.
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: Do you have any examples of those words or phrases
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: they didn't want you to use?
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Well, we fought over the word ethnic cleansing, even though
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: it was attributed to the U.N., They had an allergic
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: reaction to experts using the word genocide. There was another word.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Let me.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Forced disappearance.
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: And forced disappearance of doctors. And what did they want
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: you to say instead?
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: Missing.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, missing, missing.
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: And then they started saying, we don't really like using
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: amnesty anymore.
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: Amnesty International, the human rights group. During her reporting, Ramita
• 13:12
  Speaker 5: had interviewed an amnesty expert on Israeli black sites in Gaza.
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: Ben and Ramita say the BBC did not want them
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: to cite amnesty as a source.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: I was like, what, you don't trust them? You don't
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: trust Amnesty International? No, no, it's just easier if we
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: don't use them.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: And then ultimately, in one meeting, they said, we don't
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: view the UN as an independent organization anymore. And at
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: that moment, I said, I'm sorry, what did you say?
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: And then I Googled BBC and UN reports, and there
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: were hundreds of reports of Bangladesh, India, China, whatever. I said, well,
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: you do trust them on this. And I think what's
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: happening here is Israel doesn't trust the United Nations.
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: They also say they had to push to include Palestinian experts,
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: one of many fights in the editing room.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: The discussions and the arguments and the painful reworking of
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: the same script over and over again took time. Three
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: times as long as any other film I've ever done.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: You had to fight for every line and had to
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: justify every line. And it strained every sinew of our
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: relationship with the BBC to get there as well.
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: But for Ben, the most striking issue had to do
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: with what's called right to reply. That's giving people or
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: groups a chance to defend themselves against public criticism or
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: allegations made in reporting. In the UK, it's a legal
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: obligation under their broadcast code. But it's not unique to Britain.
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: It's standard practice in journalism. We do it for every
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: episode on this show. I've done it for this story.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: I reached out to the BBC with the details of
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: Ben and Ramita's account. And in a bit, I'll let
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: you know what they told me. I've also reviewed documentation
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: to corroborate what Ben and Ramita told me.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: Having run a national news program for 10 years, I
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: was very across when you have to use the right
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: to reply.
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: Ben knows the rules of right to reply up and down.
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: He and Ramita say they sent Israeli authorities every allegation
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: made in their film, specific questions about hospital strikes, tactics
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: used to target Palestinian doctors. And the answers they got
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: back weren't substantive or backed by evidence. It was a
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: lot of blanket statements, like this one, which essentially dismisses
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: the premise of the film. Quote, we act in full
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: accordance with international law and outright reject the allegation of
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: deliberately targeting medical facilities and medical personnel. Ben and Ramita
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: say the BBC wanted them to include rebuttals like this
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: from Israel over and over again.
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: And what was happening was that the BBC would say, well,
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: they said they responded here.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And I said, we've already said that three times.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: We can't be saying this five times because actually that's
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: not balance.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: The balance is shifting.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: Towards the Israeli side here because you're just giving them
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: free airtime to spout whatever they want to spout.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: The extent to which the BBC would accept Israeli military
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: statements as fact, unquestioningly, in the name of right to reply.
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: The BBC considers itself the world's most trusted international news broadcaster.
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: Because it's the pursuit of truth that gives us our calling.
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: And they really lean into that in their promos.
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: The fight for truth is on.
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: Despite the branding... For years, the BBC has gotten a
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: lot of criticism, both for being too pro-Israel and for
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: being not pro-Israel enough.
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: The BBC would say, neither side trusts us, we're attacked
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: by both sides. Israel says that we are pro-Palestinian in
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: our coverage, Palestinians say we're pro-Israeli, and so therefore we
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: must be doing something right.
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: I've heard a lot of journalists say the same thing,
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: often as a source of pride. But independent researchers at
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: Glasgow and Cardiff universities looked at 20 years of BBC
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: coverage and found that the BBC consistently favoured Israeli narratives
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: over Palestinian ones.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: They have been intimidated. They have been frightened of being
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: called anti-Semitic. They have been.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: Frightened of the fear of not being balanced. And they
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: have been bullied by bosses in the news industry who
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: frankly know better. And they're doing it at a time
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: when the rate of killing and the atrocities are off
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: the scale.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: And I would say, in really simple terms, our job
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: as journalists is to tell the truth, to get the
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: truth out, and journalists are becoming too scared now to
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: do that.
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: And when you're in these meetings, you're presenting the script,
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: what relation do they have to your film?
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: Well, look, I have to say this, that the people
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: who are saying it in the room I don't think
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: they're saying it themselves. If you have these weird arguments
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: with people in a room that get very heated, then
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: you go down to the pub and they'd say, you're
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: right about absolutely everything. Of course I don't believe that,
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: but I know what I have to do to get
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: this through.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: And so I did feel for some of the people
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: who were.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: Arguing that, but it's really the dissonance between what people
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: actually personally feel and what they are being forced to
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: say and do at the BBC is just shocking. It
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: felt like these were people representing views from above. They
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: were carrying out the orders of others because they weren't
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: convinced by what they were saying.
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: I asked Ben who he's talking about when he says
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: views from above.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: That guy is Tim Davey. He was the head of
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: PR at the BBC. At the moment, the BBC is
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: not run by a journalist.
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: Tim Davey, the BBC's director general and editor-in-chief. He's been
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: at the organization since 2005 in various roles, including director
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: of marketing, communications and audiences.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: And before that, he used to be the head of
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: PR at Pepsi and is otherwise known in the industry
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: as Pepsi Boy.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: Pepsi Boy, a moniker he got because of his time
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: as VP of marketing at the soda company. As the
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: top guy at the BBC now, he's the person who
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: has to answer for criticism. He's faced questions in parliament
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: about how the network covers Gaza and met with pro-Israel
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: lobby groups, which infuriates Ben. Ben says, with Davey at
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: the top, the BBC is more concerned about PR than journalism.
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: And after months of fighting for their journalism, Ben and
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: Ramita find themselves in a showdown with the BBC over
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: their film.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Ben said, this is the maddest effing meeting of my
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: effing career.
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: That's after a break. Finally, Ben and Ramita's film, Gaza,
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: Doctors Under Attack, is slated to air. After rounds and
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: rounds of fact checks, bites over language and sources, the
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: BBC's legal and compliance reviews, plus another review from Ben's
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: own lawyer, Justin Case. The documentary is set to run
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: in February 2025. But just when Ben and Ramita think
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: it's going to be released... the BBC decides to put
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: out another film first, Gaza, How to Survive a War Zone,
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: about children living in Gaza. The BBC airs that film
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: on February 17th.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: And almost immediately, it was identified as having an omission
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: from it.
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: The omission Ben's talking about has to do with the narrator,
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: a 13-year-old boy living in Gaza. It turns out he's
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: the son of an agricultural minister in Gaza's Hamas-run government.
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: That information was not in the film when it was released.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: And it becomes an absolute shitstorm in this country like
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: no other story would.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: But ministers talk about it in Parliament.
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: With Tim Davey, the BBC's director general, in the hot seat.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: It's fair to assume if the family of a senior
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: mass leader is paid that that money goes into.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: The Let's just deal with the facts.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: The independent production company, to represent them fairly, they have
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: written to us very clearly that they say no money
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: has gone to Hamas. It becomes a huge story about
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: the misreporting, even though amongst journalistic communities and about half
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: the country, the real story is that BBC's been misreporting Gaza.
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: The BBC pulls that other film. off its digital platforms,
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: and launches an internal investigation. Ben and Ramita are worried
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: that this will delay their film, again, at a time
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: when the situation in Gaza is getting worse, with Israel
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: bombing more hospitals, killing and detaining more healthcare workers. So
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: they go to the number three guy at the BBC
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: and ask him not to delay their film while this
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: other film is being investigated. His name's Jonathan Munro, the
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: global director of BBC News.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: And they immediately started saying, no, absolutely not, that's not
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: going to happen.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: This is an important film and it's a vital piece
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: of public interest journalism, is what they kept saying.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: And it'd be like, oh, great, yeah. And then we'd
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: go to the pub and have a pint of beer.
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: Those pints of beer are premature. Their film gets delayed.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Now we need another round of checks.
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: And delayed?
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, we need to... Go through the script again.
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: As they wait for final sign-off.
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: Someone's going on holiday to Yorkshire and that person's really vital.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: Or someone's at the dentist that week.
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: The BBC says the film never received final pre-broadcast sign-off.
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: But Ben and Ramita say the film was scheduled to
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: run six different times. All the while, Ramita is messaging
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: their collaborators and sources in Gaza saying, it's going to
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: run soon. I promise it's going to run soon. And
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: Romita really believed it was going to happen when she
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: says Jonathan Monroe gave them word that it would run
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: at the end of April.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: I had to go back into the recording studio to
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: do the last minute re-reads. That's when I really thought, OK,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: it's happening now. This time it's really happening.
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: And then Ben says he gets a call from Jonathan,
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: the somewhat bizarre message.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: They called us and said, we know that we've told
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: you that your film has not been delayed because of
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: the other film in the investigation. That is still the case,
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: that it wasn't delayed because of that, but it now
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: is delayed because of the investigation.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: So even though they were told that the investigation into
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: that other film was not the reason the BBC was
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: delaying their air date, from this point forward, the investigation
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: was the reason for the delay.
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: At which point we laughed, and so did half the
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: people from the BBC.
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: I emailed Jonathan for comment, and the BBC sent a
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: response on his behalf, saying they weren't going to get
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: into the details of who was involved at which stage.
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: And by the way, the investigation into the other film
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: ultimately found that while it did violate the BBC's editorial
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: guidelines by not disclosing that the narrator was the son
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: of a Hamas government official, overall, the omission did not
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: influence the content of the documentary in any way.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Ben started emailing all the bosses saying, we demand that
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: you either release our film as soon as possible, it
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: is a matter of urgency, this is an investigation into
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: war crimes, or release the film back to us.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: And really our top line on that was, this is
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: about the contributors to the film having their stories told
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: because they trusted us. You sit someone down and you
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: get them to tell the worst moments of their lives
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: when they wake up having been struck by a drone
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: and the nurse is holding the dead body of their
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: daughter they break down in tears and when you are
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: told that as a documentarian or as someone.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: In news you are really taking.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: On the most painful part of someone's life and they
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: are trusting you that you're going to tell the world
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: and that was really our point to the BBC that
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: you cannot delay this film because it contains such searing testimony.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: You don't have the right to do that because of
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: some other film.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: In the end, I stopped emailing and WhatsApping and sending
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: messages to our contributors because it was so awful having
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: to time and time again say, I'm really sorry it's
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: been delayed. How can I say, your stories have been
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: delayed because the BBC is worried about the reaction... to
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: another film that has nothing to do with you. I mean,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: it was just madness. It was just unethical and immoral.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: And also journalists found out that our film had been
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: put on hold. And so journalists started snooping around and
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: started asking questions right then.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah. The story was reported.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: The BBC gave a statement saying we would get this
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: film out as soon as possible.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: It's an important film.
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: Hundreds of industry figures, including Susan Sarandon, write a letter
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: to the BBC calling for the immediate release of Ben
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: and Romita's film and accusing the BBC of political suppression.
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: By now, it's May, three months after the film was
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: initially supposed to air in February. And finally, Ben says,
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: they get called in for a meeting with Jonathan Monroe
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: and a few others. He and Romita go to the meeting.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: They turned around to me and they said, listen, there
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: is a way forward. Ramita, hear us out. And the
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: way forward is that we're going to take you off
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: as the reporter and you're going to become a subject
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: in the film. You will become a contributor to be
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: interviewed alongside Palestinians. So you can explain your journalism for
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: full transparency. And at that point, I was so shocked.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: And I remember looking at Ben and And Ben was
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: laughing because, I mean, it's such an absurd idea. And
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I said, do you realize how insulting this is? Do
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: you realize what you're asking me to do? And then
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I think they then thought that they would try to
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: appeal to my ego. So then they said, they set
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: out kind of their list of kind of news trinkets
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: to sell to me, to placate me. They said, but Romita,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: we're going to have you on all sorts of radio programs,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: they said. which, first of all, you do that anyway.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: When a film comes out, you have a whole PR
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: team that gets you on all these programs. And to
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: be honest, it's quite tiresome, right? But you have to
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: do it. It's not something I ever relished doing. So
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I was stunned that they thought that that would be
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: enough to placate me. At that point, Ben said, this
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: is the maddest effing meeting of my effing career.
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: When asked why they were suggesting this, Ben says the
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: execs in the meeting explain they're worried about narrators who
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: aren't BBC employees because of the controversy with the 13-year-old
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: narrator of the other film. So they suggest hiring an
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: actor instead of Ramita to narrate the documentary.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: I said, so you're comparing me to a child who
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: is the child of a member of the Hamas government.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: And they actually said, Ramita, we assure you, we are
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: not comparing you to a Hamas child. I'm laughing now,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: but I was really, really angry. This is the first
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: time in my career I've ever encountered this type of prejudice,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: I would call it, because there's no way if I
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: was a English white, let's say middle-aged man. I mean,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: with my level of expertise and my standing in the industry,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: there's no way they would have asked for that person
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: to become a subject in his own film. I mean,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: there's just no way.
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: They also brought up Ramita's Twitter posts, saying some appeared one-sided.
• 30:05
  Speaker 5: Ramita says the BBC had already gone through all of
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: her social media and asked her to remove some retweets
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: about human rights abuses from international organizations like Amnesty and
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: Human Rights Watch. She says the retweets didn't violate BBC policy,
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: but she agreed to remove them anyway.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: I've never been asked to un-retweet tweets about the Taliban
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: in Afghanistan. or against the Iranian regime. You know, this
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: was quite extraordinary. And I also reminded them, I knew
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: what was at play, that they were worried about the
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: optics of an Iranian woman who they presumed to be
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Muslim investigating Israeli war crimes. I knew that was happening.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And in the meeting, I reminded them that the Iranian
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: regime has called me an imperialist Zionist spy. that I've
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: spent over 20 years of my career investigating Islamist groups
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: such as ISIS and different Shia militias across the region.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: So this is absurd that all of a sudden I'm
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: seen as partial. Right at the end of the meeting,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: when Ben kept pushing them, Ben kept asking them, have
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: there been any complaints made against her?
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: No.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Ben just exploded and said, we're not changing a thing.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: By the way, there were people I'd known for, one
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: person I'd known for two decades and used to work alongside.
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: So when we were walked out of the building, the
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: person who'd been part of the meeting was apologising profusely, saying,
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, that was a really ridiculous idea and we
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: shouldn't have ever presented it.
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: So then what happened after that meeting?
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: After that meeting, I wrote a letter. I thought, right,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: first of all, I want this on record. I want
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: on record what happened in that meeting. I was so angry.
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: Ramita sends her letter all the way up the chain
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: to the top two people at the BBC, Director General
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: Tim Davey and to the CEO of News, Deborah Ternes.
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: She demands to know why the BBC would demote her
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: from reporter to interview subject. Two days later, they hear
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: from the bosses.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: It wasn't long after that letter that Ben received an
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: email saying, we agree now you can have the film back.
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: The BBC was telling them they were not going to
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: run the documentary. It was a huge blow. But Ben
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: and Romita could have the rights back and hopefully air
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: it someplace else.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: And they had conditions.
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: One, the documentary could not be shown in the UK.
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: though the BBC would reserve the right to show clips
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: and to interview Romita for their news services. And two,
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: they were asked to sign what Ben called a gagging clause,
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: limiting what they could say about the film.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: I or anyone who bought the film would not be
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: able to say that it had been a BBC film,
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: even though we had been making it with the BBC
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: for a year. And also, they would not be able
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: to say that the BBC didn't run it. I just thought,
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: why would a journalist sign an NDA? Why would I
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: sign an NDA which is palpably, provably, and openly untrue?
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: In the middle of these negotiations, Ben's speaking on a
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: panel at the Sheffield Documentary Festival, and he goes public
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: about what's happening with their film. There's no recording, but
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: people wrote about it. Ben said, The BBC has utterly failed.
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: The best journalists in the world are working inside the BBC,
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: and they are being stymied and silenced. That same morning,
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: Ramida is a guest on a BBC radio show. She
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: was invited on as an expert to discuss Israel's bombings
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: in Iran that had just happened.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I was asked how Iranians are feeling about this. So
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I updated everybody on the situation and what was actually
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: happening on the ground. And then I gave my analysis
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: and I told the reporter, I said, Iranians are pretty
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: fearful because they're seeing what Israel is doing in Gaza.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: And it's killing Palestinians, it's ethnic cleansing, and it's behaving
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: like a rogue state. Something along those lines.
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: The recording of this is not available online, but we
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: found a transcript. And her precise words were that Israel had, quote,
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: become a rogue state that's committing war crimes and ethnic
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: cleansing and mass murdering Palestinians.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: And the presenter tried to correct me and said, you're
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: just giving your opinion. And so I told him, no,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: this isn't my opinion. I've been investigating this for nearly
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: a year and a half for the BBC. This is
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: based on my work.
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: Why was that a problem?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Well, good question. Why was that a problem? I was
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: giving a comment as an expert in this field, giving
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: analysis after 22 years of covering the Middle East and
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: covering Iran.
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: The next day, the BBC issues a public statement saying
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: it's dropping the film. The BBC wrote, yesterday it became
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: apparent that we have reached the end of the road
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: with these discussions. But Ben and Romita say it wasn't yesterday.
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: They'd been negotiating for weeks to get the rights to
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: their film back. The BBC statement went on to say,
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: we have come to the conclusion that broadcasting this material
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: risked creating a perception of partiality that would not meet
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: the high standards that the public rightly expect of the BBC.
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: So I want to pause on the phrase perception of partiality.
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: What are we supposed to make of that?
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: The perception of partiality, they're literally saying they care more
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: about how people perceive what's being said rather than the truth.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: That's madness.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: It shows that they can no longer recognise what partiality is.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: And it actually means that its interpretation of impartiality actually
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: obstructs the truth and constructs a different truth.
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: I sent the BBC a long list of questions after
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: my interviews with Ben and Ramita. I gave them their
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: right to reply. Questions like, did any BBC editor or
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: lawyer advise against citing Amnesty International or the UN? And
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: were the filmmakers asked to replace terms like ethnic cleansing
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: and genocide? Their spokesperson said it's not uncommon for presenters
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: to point out that genocide has a legal definition. and
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: that Director General Tim Davey was not involved in discussions
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: about language choices for the film. Many of my other
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: questions they didn't answer. Instead, they focused on Ramita's comments
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: on the BBC's radio show, writing in part that after she, quote,
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: called Israel a rogue state that's committing war crimes and
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: ethnic cleansing and mass murdering Palestinians, it was impossible for
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: the BBC to broadcast the material without risking impartiality. They
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: go on to say, quote, the BBC holds itself to
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: the highest standards of impartiality and it would never be
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: acceptable for any BBC journalist to express a personal opinion
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: in this way. We believe this is one of the
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: reasons we're the world's most trusted news provider. We were
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: left with no choice but to walk away.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: They said that they were dropping the film because of
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: my comments.
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: What did you tell the journalists in Gaza you were
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: working with, your sources in Gaza, the medical professionals whose
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: stories you were telling? What were those conversations like?
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: Well, with the journalists, they're trying to stay alive. They're
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: trying to feed their families. They're trying to move to
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: safety all the time.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Osama and Jabba, two producers, they weren't surprised. They just
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: shrugged it off. This is what they always thought would
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: happen anyway. So I was working up to this moment
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: of like, I'm so sorry. And yeah, there's no reaction.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: They just weren't surprised. One of them who was sending
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: me messages last night, who's in Gaza City right now, Osama,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: who's really living in fear of his life. He thinks
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: he's going to die. So yeah, so me texting them,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: telling them, oh, I'm really sorry. I don't know if
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: the BBC is going to run it. I don't, you know,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: at this point, like who gives a shit? That was
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: their reaction.
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: And their sources? Some were really angry. Others, like one doctor,
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: just said, told you so.
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: The mistrust of the BBC in Gaza is now sort
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: of absolute.
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: After seven months of battling the BBC, Ben and Ramita
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: did get the rights to their film back, in full.
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: They did not sign the gag clause. And on July 2nd,
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: Their film aired in the UK, not by the BBC,
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: but by its competitor, Channel 4, where Ben had worked
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: as news editor for a decade and where Ramida had
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: spent much of her career. It's also available internationally through
• 39:29
  Speaker 5: Mehdi Hassan's new outlet, Zateo.com. That's where I watched it.
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: Ben says they haven't received a single claim of inaccuracy
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: or complaint. How did you feel when the film finally aired?
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: We went round to Ben's house to watch it. It
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: was quite emotional, wasn't it, Ben? Yeah.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: And do you know what? The best thing was it
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: was actually a good film.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: When all you've been doing is fighting about the subject
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: of the film rather than the substance. Ultimately, it went
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: out in the right place, I suppose. But I would
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: have loved that film to go out on the BBC
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: and the BBC.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: Should have run it.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: And somehow the BBC has tangled itself up and it
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: will hang its head in shame.
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: You both co-wrote a piece about this whole experience for
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: The Observer, and you ended by writing, as news and
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: current affairs journalists, we do not want to be on
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: the right side of history. We want to be on
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: the right side of now. I'm wondering if you could
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: tell me what that means to you.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: That's Ben's brilliant line.
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: Thanks for me, sis. That's quite nice of you to
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: A lot of people use that phrase quite glibly now,
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: I think. To say you're on the right side of
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: history means that history will decide whether this is a
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: terrible thing.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: You know it's a terrible thing because you can see it.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: And so I.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: Just found it an annoying phrase because this isn't a
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: film we've made for people to watch in the future
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: and say, oh, you were right.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: It's a film for people to say, my God, this
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: is happening.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I also think we will look back in horror at
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: how we have covered this.
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: When Ben and Ramita started making their film, around 500
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: healthcare workers had already been killed in Gaza. By the
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: time the film came out, six months later than it
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: was originally meant to, that number had risen to over 1,500.
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: Today it's over 1,600. And there's not a single fully
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: operational hospital in all of Gaza.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: That's Sophie Kazis, one of the producers of Question Everything.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: After Ben and Ramita's documentary was axed, more than 100
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: BBC employees signed an open letter to management decrying the
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: decision and saying they'd witnessed bias in favor of Israel
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: in the newsroom. They wrote, all too often it is
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: felt that the BBC has been performing PR for the
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Israeli government and military. You can read the BBC's full
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: statement they sent to us over at our Substack, questioneverything.substack.com,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: where I give you a look behind the curtain of
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: our reporting and editorial discussions here on the show. Subscribe.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: A friendly reminder to please rate and review Question Everything.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Share it with a friend. These things truly help us grow.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Today's episode was produced by Sophie Kazis with help from
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: our Associate Coordinating Producer, Emily Meltair. It was edited by
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Managing Editor, Kevin Sullivan. Marisa Robertson-Texter was our Fact Checker
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: for this week. The rest of our team includes producer
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Zach St. Louis and contributing editor Jen Kinney. Our sound designer,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Brendan Baker, mixed this week's show. Matt McGinley composed our music.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Our executive producers are me, Brian Reed, and Robin Simeon.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seipel, Tejal Ajmera, Natalie Hill,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: and Jennifer Farrow. We'll see you next Thursday.