Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 113: Who Licked the Cupcake?

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Ep. 113: Who Licked the Cupcake? · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word.
• 0:26
  And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hello, world. Hello. Let's talk about baby. Let's talk about you and me. We're talking purity culture.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Honestly, when you started that word, I thought the word period was coming out of your mouth. I was like, we're talking about period culture? Yeah.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Actually, I just saw a thing on Instagram that said, now this is, we've known about this for a while, but it said that a 100% of period products that were tested, like tampons and pads in the most recent study, I think last year, found that all of the period products, including the fancy organic ones, contained traces of, like, lead and arsenic and metals and etcetera. You know what? Maybe it'll take me out sooner.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I'll see the Lord.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Things will be okay. Because of one rogue tampon. Yep. One rogue tampon. And it's so frustrating because you pay so much money just to be a woman.
• 1:33
  And then you pay extra because you think, well, I need to be good to my body, so let me get this organic freaking tampon that looks like it's a female run company. I don't know. And it has nice packaging because I'm a sucker for packaging. Turns out I've got lead poisoning.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Do you know? In my wagine.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Sorry, dad.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I'm really hoping dad's
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: not listening to this one.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Mom, if you are, I'm I'm sorry. You've chosen this for yourself.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Yet again, parents, family members, this one's not for you. Feel free to skip on past this podcast. We have many, many other episodes So many. That you are welcome to listen and enjoy. But this is not for you.
• 2:19
  For the
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: rest of you, we're very glad you're here.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Yes. Welcome to the We Are More podcast. My name's Alyssa, and this is Brie.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: And we like talking about sex, baby. Today we do, apparently. Last week, we talked about spicy books. Kind of. Yeah.
• 2:36
  Kind of. Yeah. Which was quite fun and kinda goofy and a little bit lighter than some of the topics that we normally talk about. Yeah.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: This it was called a tiptoe
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: into Trauma. Yeah. So today, we're gonna talk more about, like, the the deeper parts of all of that. Don't make faces at me. What a word choice.
• 3:02
  I couldn't think of anything that wasn't
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: dirty. Listen. Alyssa and I both were in marching band. And if you know anything about marching band, it means that our minds are completely in the gutter.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: In the gutter. It's a bad time. Our poor mother. Mom, if
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: you're still listening, I'm so sorry. And I'm not a crazy person. What? I'm a crazy person. Thank you.
• 3:23
  But not in that regards. And I my mind is so thoroughly in the trash.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: If your mind is also in the trash,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: you found the right place. Join us. Join us. So, yeah, today, all of
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: our minds can be in the gutter. That's just how it's gonna be.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: In the gutter, but also, it's not just we're talking dirty. We're talking about healing from trauma.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: And if you grew up in the conservative Christian church or just like this happens in a lot of other religions and a lot of other cultures, but purity culture.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: How does that affect us later on in life Mhmm. And into adulthood and beyond?
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: So let's define that real quick, just in case you lived under a rock and didn't have to deal with this level of trauma.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Yes. Maybe you're a woodland creature.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe. So this was in The US. I'm not speaking globally necessarily, but in The US, this was a movement that came about in the eighties and nineties. The good old days. So this wasn't necessarily as big of a part of churches from my understanding, from my research.
• 4:40
  I wasn't I didn't exist pre eighties and nineties, so
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think pre eighties and nineties, they just didn't talk about anything. Very
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: possible. But it emphasized not having sex before marriage to the point that not only was it a sin, but your value was in that virginity. And it came about through things like purity rings. There was a book called True Love Waits. There was another book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
• 5:10
  And I think we've talked about that one before. People would do modesty pledges. There were purity balls, and I'm not being dirty with that one. Courtship culture became a big thing. Think, like, the Duggar family and the boy would ask the girl's father if it was okay to court her or whatever.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: A stay at home daughter movement. Yes.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh. And then abstinence only education started to become a big hot button issue at that time. So that means even in public schools, we weren't talking about safe sex. We were talking about don't have sex before marriage. We're never gonna talk about a condom or birth control.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: That's how that's what we grew up in. That was what was in our churches. That was what was in the world around us. I don't know if you remember. We did a they called it a purity retreat.
• 6:03
  We did. It was like multiple days, and we all had to
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: go stay the night at the designated chaperone parents' house.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I think because they were to make it fun.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Fun. It was not fun. We had the textbook, like a handbook to fill out. And I
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: think I'm still friends with the leader of that on Facebook. Are you really? Yeah. It was basically, yeah, days and days of sitting there being preached at about how your virginity was your only value. And there were all kinds of comparisons that we would get.
• 6:41
  Hold on. I have a list of some of the different ones that, okay, that people would give you. So one of them was, you are like a flower. Ready? Not that kind of flower.
• 6:54
  So basically, that metaphor was when you're a virgin, you're like a flower, and all your petals are beautiful and perfect. And if you have sex, it's like someone taking that flower and crumpling it, and it can never be the same again.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Sex outside of marriage. So every time you have sex before you're married Mhmm. You're giving away a pedo. Mhmm. Giving away a piece of yourself.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Right. And you can never get that back, and you owe it to your husband. So now you have to give him a a crumpled crappy flower, I guess. Some other versions of that exact same metaphor were, like, chewed gum. A piece of gum can't be unchewed, I guess.
• 7:44
  All of these are very gross metaphors.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: A licked cupcake. Like, you're a cupcake with beautiful frosting.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Also, can we talk about woah?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I know. All of them.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: All of them are so bad. The retreat that we went to, I remember one of my friend's moms was one of the person one of the persons? One of the people speaking. And she had a vase full of marbles, and that vase was passed around to every single person there. And they said, take a marble, take a marble, take a marble.
• 8:12
  And by the time the vase got back to the speaker, it was basically empty. And she's like, see, this is like giving away pieces of yourself, and this is all
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: you have left. You're an empty vessel. Yeah. Think about what that says. Now, I will say I don't know what the boys were having said to them because they always split you up.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Not at our retreat.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Were they not? I remember them being
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: so There was a portion that we were split up, but for some of it, we were together. Okay.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: The message is your value to your future partner, to yourself, and to God is in your virginity. And what does that say? What does that mean?
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: And I would also say it it's not just virginity. They push it even further. So they would say no kissing, no hand holding, no going on individual dates. You have to go on group dates because you can't be trusted. Right.
• 9:14
  And you yeah. You start to feel like an object rather than a person. Mhmm. And you feel like your faith is directly tied to your purity.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it creates this extreme sense of guilt that I think any of us that grew up in purity culture feel. And I've seen this all over the Internet. People talk about this a lot. Where whether you have sex before marriage or whether you don't, you feel like you're doing something wrong all the time.
• 9:45
  Mhmm. If I'm attracted to that person, that's wrong. If I hold that person's hand, that's wrong. You've got images or, like, videos and stuff of people that'll be like, oh, our first kiss was on our wedding day, and what a beautiful Christian thing that is.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Well, like, I know a lot of people, specifically women, feel this way, but like all the way leading up to marriage Mhmm. Sex is dirty and wrong. Mhmm. Dirty and wrong.
• 10:11
  Dirty and wrong. Dirty and wrong. And then all of a sudden you get married and it's supposed to be beautiful. Mhmm. And so trying to do the mental gymnastics to switch your brain Mhmm.
• 10:22
  To thinking it's now beautiful
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Is a lot. Well, one of the things that women were taught, or some of the things women were taught, were that their desires didn't matter. And that they didn't have desire to begin with. That it was non feminine, I guess Mhmm.
• 10:41
  To have any kind of sexual desire. You can't be horny. And so we learned that we didn't want sex or that we were never gonna think about it or that we wouldn't enjoy it. I actually remember in college, I was doing research for my speech class. I don't remember what the topic was.
• 11:00
  But I'm on the computer, and I happened upon this church's website. And they had a section that they had titled just for members. So of course I clicked that. And it said at the top, this is for members struggling with different things. If you're not a member, please don't read this.
• 11:17
  I read it. Okay. Absolutely. As one should. As one would.
• 11:22
  And it was written the article that I was reading was written by a woman. And she was basically talking about what a miserable inconvenience sex is with your husband. She was talking about within marriage, but she was like, you know, your dress is getting wrinkled in the corner. And this was clearly a very conservative church. But she's like, your dress is getting wrinkled in the corner, and you're thinking about this and this and blah blah blah blah blah.
• 11:46
  And it was just this whole thing about how miserable and something you just have to get through as a woman. And that's what we were taught.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: That's what we were taught to expect. And then men on the opposite side are taught that they can't control themselves. That it's expected that they will have a very strong sex drive, and that you can't even look at a woman Mhmm. Without dirty things happening to you.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting how men deal with women when they've gone through purity culture. Because you think of like, I don't know if you guys I'm sure you know who Billy Graham was. But he had a rule, a very famous rule, about women. He would never be in the same room, in the same space, alone with a woman. And the idea was like, I understand the concept, I guess.
• 12:48
  Because he didn't want anyone to accuse him of anything. He didn't want anything to look improper. I get it. I get it because he's a prominent
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: figure. Mhmm. And I'll say some doctors wanna do that same thing. Right? They never wanna be alone.
• 13:10
  They always wanna have some kind of accountability. Mhmm. But I think with Billy Graham, that's like the expectation now. And all men should be like Right.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Right. What that does is it makes women into objects. Mhmm. It makes women less human. You can't even be in a room with me without controlling yourself.
• 13:33
  Now, I'm not saying that was what he was saying. I think he was doing it from a sense of impropriety. Mhmm. But like, when the rest of the Christian men are like, oh, well, I'm not gonna do this because Billy Graham did it. You are so uncontrollable, which is absolutely what purity culture taught you, that you can't even stand in a room with me without having a problem.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: That's not normal. That's not a normal sex drive.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Right. The Duggars, I remember from 19 kids and counting, they had a rule that they could only do side hugs. Remember that? Yes. Which even within their family, to be fair, they're family man.
• 14:15
  True. True. But they weren't allowed to give someone of the opposite sex a full hug. Mhmm. Two armed hug.
• 14:24
  They had to do like a side hug. Mhmm. Because you can't have someone's body pressed against you.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: It's just sad. There's also you'll hear Christian men say the phrase bounce your eyes a lot. And what they're saying is basically, don't look at any woman too long. Bounce your eyes from person to person to person to person. And then that way, you won't lust after a woman because you won't have looked at her.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: I think what's really missing from purity culture is just teaching respect. Mhmm. Right from the beginning, if you believe that men and women are created equally in the image of God, that means that everybody should be treated with dignity and respect. I don't have any control over you. You don't have any control over me.
• 15:14
  You get to make your own decisions. I mean, from the beginning, if you don't think that women are equal to men, women are lesser than men Mhmm. Women were were made second, so they don't have equal value to men. There's no respect there.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And this has really far reaching consequences. I think purity culture gets defended all the time because they're like, oh, well, you don't want people to have sex before marriage, do you? And we'll get into more of that in a little bit. But that's not really the issue.
• 15:50
  Because if it was just, hey, we would prefer that you not have sex before marriage. Here's a couple of reasons why, but it doesn't it's not your intrinsic value. Then okay. That's theology. Whatever.
• 16:05
  But because of all of this, you've got studies showing that women and men have developed shame, anxiety, intimacy issues, difficulty understanding their desire or setting boundaries. Or just very simply not feeling like they're normal.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. I read some stories, and I can read some more later on on Reddit, From people who grew up thinking their stories on Reddit. And they just thought that they weren't normal Mhmm. Growing up. Because just normal puberty thoughts, normal puberty experiences, they were thinking that, oh my gosh, I have a way too overdeveloped sex drive.
• 16:48
  Mhmm. And I'm not normal. I'm normal for having these thoughts or these feelings or these things happen to my body. Mhmm. And no one to talk to about that because then they thought, if I talk to someone about this, I'm sinning.
• 17:02
  Right. Or they do talk to people and they get really bad information Mhmm. From their youth pastors or other adults in their church or their family.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Well, and because the message is abstinence only and that's just I'm sorry. Every child is not gonna do that. That's not what's gonna happen to every single kid. And so in giving them only abstinence education, they aren't learning healthy, safe practices. So that's how you end up with teen pregnancy, because somebody wasn't taught how to prevent those things.
• 17:41
  Mhmm. You know? And so out of purity culture came a rise in teen pregnancy. And you can see now in The United States, teen pregnancy has dropped drastically because most school systems now do not have abstinence only education. Mhmm.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And from the perspective of what girls are taught, that they're used pieces of gum Mhmm. Or wilted flowers or just objects in general. Mhmm. If you've already made that leap and lost your virginity and then you're hearing all this purity culture stuff, you're hearing from people that you should respect or you think you should respect, that you're a chewed up piece of gum. That you are an empty vessel.
• 18:27
  And so then what happens to you?
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: You think you're garbage. Or you think, well, I already did that. Mhmm. So might as well just blow it out of the water. Yep.
• 18:37
  You know? So then you end up with
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: not safe practices Mhmm. Or not feeling like you have control over your body. And not even knowing what words to use to create boundaries.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Because if you don't know, okay, well, is a safe person versus a not safe person. This is what I'm comfortable with with my own body. This is what I'm not comfortable with. You can't articulate those things. Mhmm.
• 19:03
  And so you do wind up in situations that maybe are not safe. Maybe are not comfortable for you. It it's bad. It's a bad time. Mhmm.
• 19:14
  And you also feel like like, let's say you do have sex before you get married, and then you almost feel like you have to apologize to your partner. I don't know if men feel like this because I feel like it's much more acceptable for boys to have sex before marriage than girls in Christian culture. But for girls, you feel like I have to apologize to you for something I did with my own body because I took something away from you. Mhmm. You should have been able to have my virginity and now you can't.
• 19:45
  I'm sorry. Yeah. As though it's owed to them. And it it's a horrible image.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: As though I, as a woman, owe anybody else that part of myself.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: It is owed to no one. Not to my husband, not to any other partner. It's my body. And that's what purity culture really, really misses, is that bodily autonomy.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And then you end up also Alyssa and I both went to Christian colleges. And I saw so many people, so many very young people, you included, get married very quickly
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: During college, right after college. Because at the end of the day, we all know they just wanted to do the bang bang.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: If it helps that wasn't my reasoning. Good for you.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: And then ended up in divorce. Mhmm. Because you realize, hey, I don't actually know that person. Or turns out sex wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. And now I'm married to this person.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: That's the crazy thing. I had a lot of friends that got married in college. Because Christian colleges.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: We I'm I'm sure I've said this before, but the president of our college got up in a chapel sermon that he was doing. And he was like, I can't figure out why all of you aren't married. Boys, look at all these beautiful Christian girls. Blah blah blah. He's talking to, like, 18 year olds.
• 21:25
  And at the time, because I grew up in this, it didn't seem weird. Mhmm. It didn't occur to me that that was not normal.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I know we've definitely talked about this, but I thought I was so behind. So desperately behind because I was like 20. And I was like, well, if I don't find someone now, I'm never gonna get married. I'm an old maid at this point. I remember going on Tinder and just desperately, because there wasn't a lot of dating apps, just Tinder that I knew of, Desperately trying to go on dates with people because I was like, I need it.
• 22:00
  I for heaven's sakes, I'm so behind. Where's my husband? Yinka.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: But that's the result of this. If purity culture was good, if it was what God wanted, if it was doing good things and I'm specifically talking about purity culture right now. Again, we'll get into the purity part of it later, but the culture surrounding it. If it was good, it would produce good fruit. But instead, it produces women with shame and anxiety and sexual dysfunction.
• 22:39
  And quick marriages, most of which in mine and Bree's experiences, ended in divorce or miserable marriages. Or abuse. Yeah. It's not good. It turns out poorly.
• 22:57
  And so why? Why? Can we just let it go? So why? So why?
• 23:03
  And I know we talk a lot about how things are for women in these scenarios because Maria and I are women, and that's what we know. But it wasn't good for men either. It's still not good for men. Because men were portrayed as uncontrollable. So like, oh, boys just can't help themselves, which isn't a good message and it's not respectful to them either as human beings.
• 23:28
  You know
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: that song from Dua Lipa? It's boys will be boys. Mhmm. But the whole line is boys will be boys will be boys will be boys will be boys. Do you like that?
• 23:39
  But girls will be women. Mhmm. There's an expectation that, oh, boys just mature slowly compared
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: to girls. Girls just mature so much
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: more quickly. And that's not the truth. The truth is just that we have a lot more expectations that women will mature quickly.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Isn't that weird? Because that one that phrase, I feel like isn't necessarily religious. It's like a societal expectation. And people think it's just a universal truth.
• 24:12
  It's It's
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: all in how we start. Right? If you start teaching people dignity and respect, then they turn out a lot better. Mhmm.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Model it for for your kids, for other people's kids, for those around you.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: And you're talking about manifesting. Right? That's a huge thing right now. Mhmm. I'm gonna manifest a promotion for myself at work.
• 24:37
  Well, manifest destiny. Right? Whatever.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: That's not what that means. It's a bad thing.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: The manifest destiny. No. Like, if you expect that boys won't be able to control themselves, then they won't be able to control themselves. Mhmm.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Well, this turns out in pretty much one of two ways for men. They either become sexually aggressive because they're told, you might as well. You can't help it. Right? Or they become afraid of women because women are sin.
• 25:13
  Women are temptation. They're not humans. They're temptation. So they can't build friendships with women. They can't learn emotional intimacy because they can't trust that woman because she's sin.
• 25:28
  And they don't see them as full human beings.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: On top of that, they were given all this pressure too. And I think, again, many men will talk about this as like a, this is a good thing for masculine, manly men. But they were given on top of being told you're uncontrollable, They were also told that they were the leaders, that they were the most spiritual, that they were the strongest, that they were the initiators, that they were the protectors. Hello, boys. That's horrible.
• 26:01
  That's a horrible combination. Be all
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: these things, but also remember you can't control yourselves. You can barely turn your heads to breathe.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Which might be why our country is in the position that it's in. Mhmm.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: It feels like you're just like spinning in circles. Right? I'm supposed to be religiously and spiritually superior to women. But what if I don't feel that way? Or I'm supposed to be a leader.
• 26:25
  But what if I don't actually like leading? Mhmm.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: All of these things, these expectations, this box that we put Christian men in and that we put Christian women in, they're impossible. They're impossible standards. And that's I think that's a big part of why we see people leaving the church en masse because they don't fit in the tiny little box. And if they don't fit in the tiny little box, we don't have a place
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: for them. We dropkick them across the field. One of the
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: things that we've seen really strongly on our social media lately, and if you don't follow us, here's a plug. You can find us at the hashtag we are more on Instagram and TikTok. But one of the things that we've seen a lot is people saying, finally found a community here with us, with this podcast, where I can exist, where a feminist Christian can exist, where an LGBTQ Christian can exist, where someone who doesn't believe in male hierarchy can exist and still have their faith.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Because you've got Christians telling you, you can't you can't be a feminist. You can't be part of the LGBTQ community. You can't be all of these things and still be a Christian. And the world, society sees what Christianity has become. And they tell you, you can't be a feminist and also be a Christian.
• 27:55
  Mhmm. There's nowhere for us to be.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Uh-oh. We're just really fighting. We're wiggling our butt to find
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: a space somewhere in the middle. But that's what's been cool about social media. And social media can be really negative too. Don't get me wrong. I got in a fight with some guy today who told me that Jesus was not loving.
• 28:17
  So that was fun.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Was that today or yesterday?
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Well, this one was last night and then again this morning. He keeps he keeps responding to me.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Just respond. Why are
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: you so obsessed with me? He also told me that Jesus never put women in leadership positions, so that was fun. Read your bible, you moron. Good times. My gosh.
• 28:36
  But beyond those people, it can also be really positive. It can bring people together that would never normally find each other.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Listen. This is called trauma bonding. And that builds the strongest friendships I've found. I'm pretty sure that builds unhealthy things.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: But Listen.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Listen. Unhealthy can be strong.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: So I think let's also talk about what purity culture did to marriage. Because it seems like it would be good for marriage, right, on
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: the surface. No. But continue. Well, that's what they told us. They told us that.
• 29:18
  Yes. They told us that. They said it's gonna make your marriage that much sweeter, that much better. It's gonna be so amazing when you finally kiss at the altar.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: I had a friend in college, and her and her sister both got married while they were in college, very young. And she her and her husband did not wait, but her sister and her sister's husband did. And I remember her crying to me one time because she's like, it was just so beautiful for them, and we didn't have that. We lost that blah blah blah, and our marriage is not gonna be as strong and on and on and All this purity culture stuff. Right?
• 29:53
  But what what does it really do? Because we were told if you wait to have sex, your marriage will be godly and perfect. If you don't, you're gonna be living in a gutter somewhere. Yeah. And cursed.
• 30:11
  Cursed. But that's not how sex works. It's just not. So you've got these couples that on their wedding night, they're both virgins. And there's so much pressure.
• 30:24
  There's so Right? Much
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: There's such an expectation. And maybe that starts from a billion years ago. Right? When men and women had to consummate their marriage in front of people Yeah. To prove that they were
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: actually millions of years ago.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Thousands.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: But the thing about sex is that the first time is rarely good. It's usually uncomfortable, even just the first time with a person, like a new person. It's uncomfortable. You don't know each other. You don't know what the other person likes or dislikes.
• 31:01
  You're awkward and uncomfortable. And my gosh, the very first time entirely, it can hurt. And also, you've just gone through a wedding. So you're exhausted. Your emotions are at ten.
• 31:14
  Mhmm. And now all of a sudden, as the woman, you're expected to perform. Mhmm. And for the men, you're expected to be gung ho, can't wait to have sex. Maybe they are.
• 31:27
  I don't know. But from the woman's perspective, I don't think it's usually very exciting. I don't think it's something they're looking forward to. And being with your partner, being with the person that you love should be something you look forward to.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: And so rather than teaching sex when you're ready, sex when you both consent, when you both agree mutually,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: and also have it be
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: your choice. Just because you're getting married Mhmm. Does not mean that you have to do this tonight. Mhmm. You do it when you're ready.
• 32:05
  Yep. And if you want to wait, that's your choice. Yeah. And if you don't want to wait, hey, that's your choice. Mhmm.
• 32:13
  Because this is your body. Yep. And you get to have your own convictions about what you think the Bible says or what have you. But that doesn't mean that God loves you any less. Mhmm.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that your marriage is gonna be cursed. That doesn't mean that you're an awful person. Purity culture continues on, though, after marriage. You'd think, okay, we don't need to be pure anymore. Right?
• 32:40
  Like, we're good. Yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: We
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: fulfilled that little covenant, Lord. But no, it keeps going. And it becomes much worse for women. Something that I wasn't aware of prior to starting the podcast and all that was something called the seventy two hour rule. Bree's heard of this because I've said it before.
• 33:00
  You may not have. But in conservative Christian circles, I was never told this, but in other circles, I've seen a lot of women talk about it, there is a seventy two hour rule where you have to have sex or perform a sexual act for your husband at least every seventy two hours. Every seventy two hours. It does not matter if you are on your period. It does not matter if you just birthed a child.
• 33:25
  It does not matter if you are terminally ill. It doesn't matter. Every seventy two hours. Because if he doesn't have a sexual release every seventy two hours, he might stray. He might look at other women.
• 33:37
  He might have sex with other women, and that will be your fault. Can I not just say, do it yourself? Hell, let's have
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: a little DIY project every seventy two hours. My gosh.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: There are many, many adult toys on the
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: market. Yeah. Yeah. At Target.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Do they have ones for
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: men at Target? I think so.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Do they? Well, there you go. Target, folks. Target.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: You don't have to go on the dirty websites. You can just go to Target.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: And won't you feel so much better about that Yeah. Walking up to the cash register?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I didn't say you had to do that. Make someone walk out to you with a coffee. I'm here for my drive up for my my coffee and my fleshlight. Mom, I'm so sorry for still listening.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: So there's that part, and there's also just general obligation sex. And we're gonna talk a little bit about Sheila Ray Gregoire. And she has done a lot of really, really great research.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: We need a name for Sheila. Like our best friend Beth, our our savior Sheila. Oh, no. That can't be it. I'll take that back.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Our sort of friend Sheila.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: No. No.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I love her. She's amazing.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Our our
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: warma.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: No. I don't think that's it. Keep thinking. Okay.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Sheila has done some really spectacular peer reviewed amazing research on purity culture, on Christianity and sex, all kinds of stuff. She's got amazing books. One of them is called She Deserves More. One of them is called The Great Sex Rescue. She also has a spectacular podcast that she does with her daughter.
• 35:31
  But one of the things that she studies is obligation sex and what that does to a woman's brain. Because I'm not talking about marital rape necessarily in this case, which is definitely happening in Christian circles because they don't think it's a real thing. But just obligation sex in general. A woman saying yes not because she wants to have sex but because she feels like she's supposed to and so she just tolerates it. That does something to you mentally.
• 36:02
  It breaks down your relationship with your partner because your relationship with your partner is transactional. It's not I want to be with you. It's I have to be with you. It's not I want to be around you. It's I have to be around you.
• 36:16
  And that does something to you. It creates additional anxiety. It creates additional depression.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Well, also, we've spent years telling women that their sex drives are nonexistent and that if you do have one, there's something a little bit off with you. Because women don't desire sex. Men do.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: And then there's less expectation. Right? Mhmm. He should have to perform for freaking you. Mhmm.
• 36:43
  Right? He should have to so sorry, mom. He should have to turn you on. Like, there should be something in it for you. It shouldn't just be like, okay.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Missionary position again, man. Yep. Ow. So Sheila surveyed 20,000 Christian women. I actually was part of this survey, which was very fun.
• 37:09
  She sent out a whole thing. It was extensive. And it was about sex, marriage, beliefs, and the teachings that we received growing up. And some of the things you can go in and read all of her stats. Follow her on Facebook.
• 37:22
  I think her page is called Bare Marriage. But just sort of a general overview. Messages that women owe men sex, so women believing that they owed their husband sex, strongly correlated with a lower marital satisfaction. So not just lower sexual satisfaction. They were less satisfied with their marriage.
• 37:42
  The whole thing. She said belief in obligation sex was associated with lower sexual satisfaction also, lower orgasm rates, sorry mom, and higher rates of sexual pain disorders. So there are pain disorders that women primarily can get, and the broader population has a much smaller percentage of women that have it than the Christian community. And she talks a lot about that. It also says that women who internalize shame based teachings about sexuality often carry that same shame into marriage.
• 38:18
  So they're still ashamed of the sex. They're still ashamed of their body, of their desire, of all of it. That doesn't end up with a good marriage. It ends up with an unhappy and sad marriage.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Because you think less of yourself, and that's never a good thing.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. So we don't have a lot of time left. And maybe this is something we can sort of preview and then go into more next week. But what does the bible say about sex? Because if you didn't catch on, we are a Christian podcast.
• 38:55
  Surprise. And the bible actually talks about sex a ton. There's a lot of sex in
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: the book. It's a sexy book. We talked about this last week.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: It's like a dark romance novel. Okay? Yeah. There's things in there.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: There's things in there. And they're not all good. Not always. Frankly, most of them are not good. Yeah.
• 39:14
  Actively bad.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: A lot of Christians believe that the biblical sexual ethic means that there should not be any sex before marriage. That's what most of us were taught. That's certainly how Brie and I were raised. And I think I think the broader Christian community is probably raised. But that's really not the message throughout the bible.
• 39:40
  And I'm gonna give you some examples, and then maybe we'll go into more of the verses and stuff next week because we don't have a ton of time left. But here's just a few examples for you.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: First, there's Abraham and Sarah. Abraham de Lacey. Giuseppe Casey.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: There is no mention of a wedding ceremony or anything like that, which you can say might have been cultural. But additionally, there's the whole situation where Sarah tells Abraham to sleep with her slave Hagar, and they do, and she becomes pregnant. Now you can say all of that is cultural. You certainly can. But my argument would be if god wanted his people to only have sex with their spouse only ever and only after marriage, he probably would have put that rule in place here.
• 40:29
  Right? I realize that I'm making a weird point. But the broader point is that our sexual ethic isn't really biblical.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: There's also Isaac and Rebecca. There isn't a marriage ceremony with Isaac and Rebecca. A slave goes and finds Rebecca, brings her back, and then Isaac brings her into his tent and sleeps with her. Through that, they're considered married. It says, he took Rebecca and she became his wife.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: And again, kinda like what we talked about last week, it's about claiming someone.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Right. Right.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: It's not about mutual submission and marriage.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Right. No. There's also Jacob, who married two sisters, if we remember that story. Jacob Marley. Wow.
• 41:18
  You've got a lot of references. Jacob was tricked into marrying the sister he didn't want to marry, and then eventually came back and married the sister that he wanted to marry as well. Fantastic for him. Two wives, sisters. Ew.
• 41:35
  Two wives, one husband. There is David, who is just a train wreck of a human. We did a whole episode on I think we did, like, three episodes on Bathsheba way back in the day. So feel free to go back and listen to those. I think we call her babs.
• 41:53
  You're right. We did. And David's story, it's a wreck. It's a sexual disaster, but it's in there. And he was the king, and that's how it is.
• 42:04
  There's also Ruth and Boaz. Their story is very sexual, and they are not married. I mean, eventually, I think they are, but not at the beginning. So when biblical writers condemn a sexual sin because Paul does talk about it. Jesus talks about it.
• 42:23
  There are moments in the New Testament. What are they condemning? Because it's probably not holding hands or kissing or dating or finding someone sexually attractive. They may not even be condemning sex before marriage. Instead, what they're condemning is exploitation.
• 42:44
  Tamar's situation where she was just exploited by everyone around her
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: And took control in the only way that she could. They were also condemning adultery and abuse and temple prostitution. Does it seem weird to anybody else that the phrase temple prostitution exists? That's a weird one for me. Let's go back
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: to the good old days. Temple prostitution. Temple prostitution.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: But that's the theme. Again, look back at the Greek, look back at the Aramaic. The theme is you don't own somebody else. You don't get to abuse somebody else or exploit somebody else.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: That's the problem. And I think that's the problem that the world is seeing with the church today is that it's a business.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Right? It only is after power and control and finding manipulative ways and slapping God's name on it Mhmm. To have power and control over people. And purity culture is just a way that they were doing that. Mhmm.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: No. I don't wanna take away bodily autonomy on this side of things either. The message that I think is the most important one is your body is your body. And at the end of the day, the decisions that you make for your body should be for yours alone. You get to choose.
• 44:15
  If you wanna wait till marriage, if you wanna wait till after marriage, that is okay. That is your choice. But regardless of the choice that you make, you continue to be just as valuable in God's eyes.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. You're not gum. You're not
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Tape that isn't sticky anymore. A used car.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: I wanted to read some Reddit stories because I quite enjoy hearing about other people's experiences with purity culture. There's also a lot of TikTokers that do a really great job of commenting on what other people have shared with them. Like, this is what I grew up learning about at youth group. Mhmm. Etcetera.
• 44:56
  But this one I thought was specifically funny. It said, my sexual education was like this. I was homeschooled K through 12. And when it was that time to have the talk, my mother bought a book for my father to go over with me. He skimmed it, turned beet red, threw it my way, and said, here, read this.
• 45:15
  It was heteronormative. No talk of consent. No talk of toys. Nothing that would have been well rounded and holistic. The part I remember best, subjectively speaking, is when they said that sex is like asparagus.
• 45:32
  What? I might not like it now, but I will get to like it when I'm older. Yep. Sex is like an asparagus, y'all.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Who knew? That is the weirdest metaphor I've ever heard.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Male youth leader gave us the sex talk and told the female teenage girls that their virginity was like a beautifully decorated delicious cupcake. Yep. And every time we had sex outside of marriage, it was like a guy was picking off the sprinkles and icing. So by the time we would get to our future husband, we would
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: be crumbs. It just it makes me furiously angry.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: It's not done yet. The male youth leader had sex before marriage, then went on to marry the much younger daughter of a famous pastor. Sure. She ended up leaving him once she realized that the man in his thirties groomed her into marriage as a 19 year old. Wow.
• 46:30
  Yeah. That's fun. And the
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: sad thing is, like, that's not an uncommon story.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Purity culture damages those who believe in it and hides those who want to abuse it.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: This one says, at YL camp, as a high schooler, my cabin counselor had us write letters to our future husbands telling them that we were saving our gift for them. Yep. I sat there awkwardly because I'd already given away my gift. Another kid asked what to do if they no longer possessed their gift, and the counselor told her she could just write an apology letter. Ugh.
• 47:09
  I was really relieved that I still got to write a letter, and I remember sitting there writing up an apology letter in big loopy cursive. Wow.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: What does that do? What does that do to you as a kid? As a small impressionable teenager? I'm so sorry future partner that I've destroyed my entire life. Mhmm.
• 47:35
  That's not okay.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: It is not okay. And from my experience, that is so much more geared towards women. Mhmm. Men, it's expected that they will sow their wild oats. Mhmm.
• 47:48
  You know? And that they won't be able to control themselves. But for women specifically, they're told that this is all you have. Mhmm. This is your greatest gift.
• 48:00
  This is what will attract a husband. And we know based on other podcasts that we've made, your greatest value and your greatest mission is to find a husband Mhmm. And produce children.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: I saw a TikTok. And this isn't just a Christian expectation. You would hope that it would be, but because the conservative culture has really taken over in The US I don't think it's taken over, but the voices are really loud, I guess. It was this guy and he he was like doing push ups some strange reason, but the voiceover said men need to have sex with many women. Women can only have sex with one man or they're worthless.
• 48:48
  And said then something about, like, I didn't make the rules. Nature did. And that is the message. First of all, if the women can't sleep with anybody, you're sleeping with men. So I don't know what to tell you.
• 49:00
  But that's the message. You have no value. None at all. He still has value. He's not writing you an apology letter.
• 49:11
  I guarantee you, the boys at that camp were not writing apology letters. But she has to. She has to feel bad. She has to carry guilt around until she finds her partner and then have an awkward conversation. And on top of that,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: if she does have some kind of, as we all do, going through puberty and all of that, sexual interest Mhmm. She's made to think that she's not normal. Mhmm. And that what she's feeling is wrong and that only men do this. Mhmm.
• 49:47
  So there must be something wrong with her.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: As we close out, I just had to
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: have the sex talk with
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: my daughter recently because she's hit that age. It's unfortunate. It was really strange to have that talk because I think back to the messages that I was given through church and through culture and all these different things of purity. But the conversation that I had with her, first of all, explaining it, which was a bad time. But also was just saying, you get to choose what to do with your body.
• 50:19
  And I will be here. If you have questions, if you have concerns and we'll keep talking about this as you get older and need to understand more because she's young. But there wasn't a purity message there. I did not give that to her. And I won't because I'm not gonna put shame on her.
• 50:38
  I'm gonna say, you get to decide. You do. If you pray to God and God says, don't want that for you, and you decide that's what you don't want, then that's fine. But if you decide it is what you want, I will still be here. I will still love you.
• 50:53
  God will still love you, and nothing will change.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: And that was weird. It was weird to have that message, But it was the one I wanted her to have.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Which, harking back, harking, harking back to our last episode on SMOTY books. Learning what is good and normal and what is not normal, young, is good. And I'm not just talking about sex, but just in relationships in general. How you should expect to be treated Mhmm.
• 51:29
  By another person.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. That
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: is something very valuable Yeah. To learn. So that you don't travel through life just clinging on to anybody for attention Mhmm. Because you think that that's where your value is. And it's not.
• 51:45
  Your value is in God. Yeah. Your value is in yourself and your butt. Your butt? Mhmm.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: My butt's small. It doesn't have a lot of value.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Size does not equate value. Size doesn't matter. Size doesn't matter.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Let's end
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: this episode on size doesn't matter. So next week,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: we'll talk more about the New Testament and what Jesus has to say about purity, what Paul has to say about it, and what the Bible's sexual ethic really is outside of the floweriness, what the church tells you, all that stuff. So don't leave us yet. Tune into that.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Go in peace to love
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: and serve the Lord. Okay. Do that then. We hope you have just an absolutely lovely week. If you want more of us, follow us on socials,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: on TikTok and Instagram. If this was not enough, that's all you get. No more.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Alright. Well, we love you. Bye. Love you. Sorry.
• 52:47
  Bye.