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From sport to the cell block: who gets to be a woman? · The Front

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  Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
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  Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, November twelve, twenty twenty five. It's d day
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  Speaker 1: for the Liberal Party's net zero policy. They'll convene in
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  Speaker 1: Canberra to vote on whether to scrub the emission's reductions
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  Speaker 1: goal from their policy platform for good. Moderates who want
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  Speaker 1: to salvage the policy have threatened to quit the front bench,
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  Speaker 1: while Conservatives are eyeing a possible leadership tilt if they
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  Speaker 1: get their way. Small Australian businesses are ground zero for
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  Speaker 1: the booming illegal tobacco industry. They're being used by criminal
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  Speaker 1: gangs to smuggle tons of smokes into the country, and
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  Speaker 1: customs and freight companies could be turning a blind eye.
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  Speaker 1: That exclusive is live right now at the Australian dot
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  Speaker 1: com dot au. Tasmania has followed the Northern territories lead
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  Speaker 1: by banning transgender in mates from women's prisons. The state's
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  Speaker 1: Deputy Premier and Corrections Minister Guy Barnett says the safety
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  Speaker 1: of female prisoners is his absolute priority. Today, legislators begin
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  Speaker 1: joining judges in trying to sort through big questions of
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  Speaker 1: gender and justice. A note before we begin this episode
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  Speaker 1: mentions sexual assault and child's exploitation. You can call one
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  Speaker 1: eight hundred respect anytime if you need support. The question
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  Speaker 1: of how to deal with trans and gender diverse people
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  Speaker 1: has raised its head again. Earlier this week, The Australian
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  Speaker 1: published a story about the judge who led Australia's Family
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  Speaker 1: Court when it allowed liberalized access of puberty blockers to
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  Speaker 1: gender just dressed children. That judge, former Family Court Chief
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  Speaker 1: Justice Diana Bryant, now says it may be better for
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  Speaker 1: parliaments to step in and regulate how young people who
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  Speaker 1: are questioning their gender are treated in the health system.
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  Speaker 1: Joining me is The Australian's New South Wales editor Stephen Rice,
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  Speaker 1: who's been looking at this issue from the point of
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  Speaker 1: view of the legislators who are trying to deal with
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  Speaker 1: questions of how the law applies to trans people. Rosie,
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  Speaker 1: you're looking at what happens when trans people find themselves
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  Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system. There's a case in Tasmania
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  Speaker 1: that's triggered the story that you've written today. Tell me
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  Speaker 1: what happened first of all in that case.
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  Speaker 2: This is a pretty horrifying case in Tasmania where our
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  Speaker 2: trans identifying prisoner. So biologically male prisoner who identifies as
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  Speaker 2: a woman raped his own three year old daughter in
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  Speaker 2: front of a camera and was sent to jail for
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  Speaker 2: six years with a four year minimum. He only served
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  Speaker 2: the four years before being let out on parole. Breached
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  Speaker 2: as parole was sent back into prison, and throughout this
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  Speaker 2: time this prisoner has been demanding to be treated as
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  Speaker 2: a woman and to be placed in a woman's prison.
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  Speaker 2: Now the Tasmanian government has just made a ruling that
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  Speaker 2: the Corrections Minister of the Deputy Premier in Tasmania, Guy Barnett,
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  Speaker 2: told me that henceforth no trans women, in other words,
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  Speaker 2: no biological men would be allowed into women's prisons in Tasmania.
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  Speaker 1: This follows a case in Victoria where the Victorian Premier,
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  Speaker 1: just Into Allan, was being asked questions that clearly made
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  Speaker 1: her very uncomfortable about a father who sexually abused his
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  Speaker 1: five year old daughter and was being held in a
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  Speaker 1: Victorian prison because he now identified as a woman. You
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  Speaker 1: revealed that story in the Australian Risie. Where did that
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  Speaker 1: end up after we spoke about it on the front?
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  Speaker 1: Is that person still in a women's prison?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, as far as we know that person is still
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  Speaker 2: in a women's prison. I mean the problem here is
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  Speaker 2: just that there is actually a policy vacuum because politicians
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  Speaker 2: by and large do not want to deal with this.
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  Speaker 2: It's far easier for them. I mean, this is a
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  Speaker 2: political minefield. It's far easier for politicians to just say, look,
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  Speaker 2: these are dealt with on a case by case basis,
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  Speaker 2: and we leave it to our prison administrators because we
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  Speaker 2: know they'll do the right thing and place these prisoners
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  Speaker 2: where they should be. That's all well and good until
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  Speaker 2: you get what we have now, which is a series
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  Speaker 2: of cases which brings that into question. You know, you
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  Speaker 2: have that terrible Victorian case that you've just mentioned, with
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  Speaker 2: the person that the courts have called Hillary Maloney who
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  Speaker 2: raped his five year old child and nevertheless is now
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  Speaker 2: in a women's prison with women who don't want that
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  Speaker 2: person to be there. These are difficult issues, but Jacentra Allen,
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  Speaker 2: the Premier of Victoria, has effectively ignored the whole affair.
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  Speaker 2: She won't buy into it. She's put everything back onto
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  Speaker 2: her corrections minister when you approach him, pushes it all
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  Speaker 2: back on her. It's, as I say, there is a
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  Speaker 2: policy vacuum here, and the same thing has now recently
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  Speaker 2: happened in South Australia, where in a series of stories
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  Speaker 2: in The Australian we revealed how several women prisoners had
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  Speaker 2: been attacked by a transgender prisoner, CHRISTA Richards, a very
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  Speaker 2: notorious transgender prisoner who was formerly a would be hit
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  Speaker 2: man and drug trafficker, a very violent man. And I've
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  Speaker 2: spoken to three different women who have been assaulted by
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  Speaker 2: Richards in jail. One of them secret well, very violently
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  Speaker 2: digitally penetrated by Richards after being forced to share a
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  Speaker 2: cell with him after complaining about it. She was left
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  Speaker 2: in that cell with this person for four days. And
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  Speaker 2: these are issues that have to be dealt with. But
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  Speaker 2: when that was made public that particular case, Pinter Malanauskus,
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  Speaker 2: the Premier of South Australia, said it was a niche issue.
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  Speaker 2: He said he hadn't really bought his mind to bear
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  Speaker 2: on it. Well, that's nonsense. He was a corrections minister
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  Speaker 2: for two years. It is just nonsense. But as I say,
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  Speaker 2: the leaders of these states just will not address these issues.
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  Speaker 2: It is too difficult for them. But it shouldn't be.
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  Speaker 2: These are things that have to be addressed because trans women,
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  Speaker 2: biological men, some of them very violent, are being placed
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  Speaker 2: in cells with very vulnerable young women.
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  Speaker 1: The vulnerability of it is a really interesting part of
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  Speaker 1: this story, isn't it, Ricey. I think you and I've
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  Speaker 1: both been around journalism enough to know that there is
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  Speaker 1: an attitude out there among many members of the public
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  Speaker 1: that if someone has committed a crime and is sentenced
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  Speaker 1: to a custodial sentence, they kind of don't want to know.
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  Speaker 1: They want them to disappear from public view and to
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  Speaker 1: be dealt with in the correction system. There's low public
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  Speaker 1: sympathy for stories about deaths in custody, or abusive conditions
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  Speaker 1: in custody, or the danger that inmates face. But do
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  Speaker 1: you think that's part of why politicians struggle to grapple
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  Speaker 1: with this, That it seems like it's kind of a
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  Speaker 1: no win for them if they're seen to be standing
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  Speaker 1: up for prisoners, no one really cares.
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  Speaker 2: I think that is part of the issue, But also
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  Speaker 2: there is this wider issue that nobody wants to be
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  Speaker 2: seen to be transphobic. Nobody wants to be seen to
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  Speaker 2: be saying that a prisoner should be treated differently because
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  Speaker 2: they are transgender. But the reality is that nobody that
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  Speaker 2: I've ever spoken to in this area is transphobic. Most
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  Speaker 2: people are incredibly sympathetic to what most transwomen most trans
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  Speaker 2: men are going through. A lot of them are very
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  Speaker 2: vulnerable people, and they need to be treated as vulnerable
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  Speaker 2: people in the prison system. But we can't care about
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  Speaker 2: them at the expense of vulnerable young women who are
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  Speaker 2: being placed in cells with very violent men.
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  Speaker 1: Coming up is the tide turning. The story that I
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  Speaker 1: alluded to at the top of this episode about Family
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  Speaker 1: Court Justice Diana Bryant now expressing some concern about a
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  Speaker 1: ruling that she made which really changed the landscape in Australia.
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  Speaker 1: It sort of highlights one of the other questions about
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  Speaker 1: this conversation about trans people. Doesn't it that although in
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  Speaker 1: many families in Australia, people who are questioning their gender
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  Speaker 1: identity are just trying to get on with life, just
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  Speaker 1: trying to survive. Their parents are just trying to keep
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  Speaker 1: them alive, keep them happy, keep them going to school.
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  Speaker 1: And yet in situations where there's perhaps a family breakdown,
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  Speaker 1: mom and dad are breaking up, the question of how
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  Speaker 1: the child should be treated medically ends up in the
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  Speaker 1: family court and then a judge is making a decision
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  Speaker 1: about it. Are we ever going to get a good
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  Speaker 1: policy if family court judges are making decisions case by
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  Speaker 1: case that then have big implications for everyone else.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I don't think anybody envies family court judges
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  Speaker 2: who are having to make these very difficult decisions. But
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  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, they have to be
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  Speaker 2: based on the science. They have to be based on
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  Speaker 2: the best medical knowledge, and what we're discovering is that
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  Speaker 2: some so called experts are using the science very selectively.
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  Speaker 1: It's hard to probably do science about this group of people,
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  Speaker 1: isn't it. Because it's a tiny group of people who
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  Speaker 1: are identifying as gender diverse or say that they're a
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  Speaker 1: different gender to the one that they were born with.
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  Speaker 1: It's not surprising that extrapolating from their experience, which may
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  Speaker 1: well be overlaid with neurodiversity or other kinds of mental
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  Speaker 1: health situations, policy to apply to everyone. It's a very
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  Speaker 1: blunt instrument, isn't it.
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  Speaker 2: It is a very blunt instrument, And as I say,
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  Speaker 2: you wouldn't be in the shoes of some of these
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  Speaker 2: family court judges for quids. But at the end of
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  Speaker 2: the day, You can't just make these decisions on the
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  Speaker 2: basis of what the child wants. It has to be
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  Speaker 2: looked at on the basis of what the medical science
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  Speaker 2: is and what the parents are seeking for their children.
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  Speaker 1: Do you feel as though the tide is turning now? Rice?
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  Speaker 1: We've now had the Northern Territory and Tasmania say that
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  Speaker 1: men will not be allowed in women's prisons. For example,
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  Speaker 1: we've had a Family Court former Chief Justice saying her
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  Speaker 1: decision she now perhaps wouldn't make that decision again. Do
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  Speaker 1: you think things are changing?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know. They're definitely changing overseas. I mean we've
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  Speaker 2: seen big changes in places like the UK, where the
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  Speaker 2: High Court there has made the decision that there can
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  Speaker 2: only be two sexes, male and female. But in Australia,
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  Speaker 2: I think we're really grappling with a lot of fear
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  Speaker 2: among well meaning people who are afraid that they are
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  Speaker 2: going to be called transfer if they deal honestly with
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  Speaker 2: these issues, if they deal with them in even the
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  Speaker 2: most basic common sense way, they are going to be
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  Speaker 2: branded as unsympathetic, cruel haters of trans people. That's clearly
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  Speaker 2: not the case, but there is a lot of fear
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  Speaker 2: out there. And it's interesting that transgender women are now
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  Speaker 2: set to be banned from all Olympic events from next
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  Speaker 2: year by the IOC. SO sport's been another battleground where
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  Speaker 2: it's taken a long time for authorities to actually get
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  Speaker 2: to this point, but perhaps the tide is turning.
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  Speaker 1: Stephen Rice is The Australian's new South Wales editor. You
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  Speaker 1: can read all Stevens reporting on this issue, plus our
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  Speaker 1: coverage of the IOC decision and the Family Court, right
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  Speaker 1: now at the Australian dot com au