Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / EBAY 'BLOOD MONEY': Pregnant Covergirl Sharon Tate murdered, her 'personal items' FOR SALE ON EBAY

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EBAY 'BLOOD MONEY': Pregnant Covergirl Sharon Tate murdered, her 'personal items' FOR SALE ON EBAY · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Charles Manson. Will he ever
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: go away? You know, I'm pretty sure he was declared dead,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: but sadly, his reign of evil goes on and his
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: minions continue his work tormenting his victims' families. I'm gonna
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: tell you how Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When you
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: heard the others come back and talking about the killings,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: what was their attitude, their demeanor toward what they had done.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I didn't hear about it from the girls until we
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: were in the desert, but they were almost like bragging.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: That's that's how I remember them telling me. It was.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: They were kind of like morbidly gleeful about it. In
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: what way? What did they say? It's just like, oh,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: and we did, you know, when we did this, and
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: we did that and did what? You know. At first,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I think one of the girls told me that they
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: they you know, they they stabbed somebody, and first, you know,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and then it became then it was fun. Morbidly gleeful.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: That is the way Manson's disciples responded to mass and murder,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: his reign of evil, now still being carried out by
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: his minions. How money online murder rebelia again. Thank you
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: for being with us, with me an all star panel
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: to break it down and put it back together again.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: LA criminal defense attorney Troy Slayton. You can find him
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: at Troy Slayton. He's with Slayton Lawyer's APC. Doctor Sherry
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Schwartz forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation at panther Mitigation
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: dot com. She's also an author of a set of books,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: most notably The Psychology of Criminal Behavior. Boy do we
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: need her? Special Guests, you're joining me right now. Longtime
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: friend and colleague. If you don't know his name, I
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: hope you never forget it, Andy Kahn. He is the
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: director of victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: You can find him at Crimestoppers dot org. And he
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: coined the phrase that I've used many many times, murder rebellia.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns now the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: That's Austin. And when you listen to what doctor Crowns
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: has to say, whether you agree with him or not,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: only ten percent of medical examiners ever achieve the title
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: of Deputy Chief medical Examiner. My longtime friend superhero Mark
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Class the founder of Class Kids Foundations. You can find
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: him at class Kids dot org. He has devoted his
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: life to seeking justice after the murder of his girl, Polly.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: But first two Elisia Stroutman, author of Restless Souls, The
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Sharon Tape Family, account of stardom, the Manson murders, and
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: a Crusade for Justice. This is Patty Ta's partner of
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: nine years. You can find her at Elisa's statement dot net. Elisa,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: take a listen to this. Charles Manson items are his
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: number one seller. Rambling prison letters, some written in code
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: with a swastik as signature, so for one hundred and
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: fifty dollars a page. There's even locks of hair from
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: killers and sketches like this one from Vampire Could Killer
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Rod Farrell and far Farrell, who told people he was
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: a five hundred year old vampire, was convicted of murdering
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: a Eustace couple in nineteen ninety six. Haller befriended Farrell
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: and even visited him in prison, but behind his financial
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: gain is loss. I miss you so much. Rat Field.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: Zaldivar's nineteen year old son Alex, was murdered last year
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: shot execution style in the head Zaldivar Fields Haller makes
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: his money off the backs of innocent victims. That's very
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: disgusting to see something like that. You know, he should
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: go find himself a real job and sell other stuff
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: online into profit off of us. You were just hearing
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Matt Grant at Wish too, what is murderabilia? And right
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: now it's rearing its ugly head because what were you're
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: learning is that for sale right now on eBay? Who's
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: doing this? Yarrant Tate's family and manson victim very distraught
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: jewelry dresses, a ring for one hundred and eighty thousand
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: dollars asking price, all claiming to be worn by Sharon Tate.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Her sister says no way straight out to Elissa Strottmann,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: author of Restless Souls, why are people still tormenting the
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: murder victims? You know, that's that's the biggest point of this, Nancy,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: is that there were more than just the victims that
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: were so brutally murdered in nine the family members and
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: friends of victims as well, and they are repeatedly, year
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: after years, over fifty years, victimized by things like this.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: You know, I can't speak to the authenticity of these items.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: But one thing really jumped out at me in the
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: hundred and eighty thousand dollars item, and it says retreat
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: from Jay sebris car after the man's learner. And the
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: important thing to know about that one statement was that
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Jay stebris car was at its fine scene, which means
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: it was evident. Now, if this was maken from this cause,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: it should have been returned to the family members, whether
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: four taps, but it should have been sent back to them.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: You know what. You're absolutely right, Alista Strautman. It sounds
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: like vultures like swooping in. If items were taken from
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: the car at the crime scene, why weren't those items
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: A turned into police or b given to the families?
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Straight out to you, Andy Kahan, Director of Victims Services
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: and Advocacy, Andy, take a listen to this. It's a business.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Eric Holler says, makes him a killing one. Critics say
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: goes too far sickening. You know, I would personally like
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: to buy all that stuff. Let me burn it. Charles Manson, Yes,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: from postcards to paintings, Holler hawks murder Abelia, intimate items
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: from notorious serial killers, and rapists, While the Jacksonville entrepreneur
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: won't say how much money he's made off his website,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Serial Killers, Inc. I'm Aaron mccab. Merchandise from Ted Bundy
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: and John Wayne Gacy have sold for hundreds even thousands
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: of dollars. A Ted Bundy Christmas card and a Bible
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: owned by Elean Warnos sold for three grand apiece, and
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: this clown painting by Gacy, who was nicknamed the Killer Clown,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: is selling for twenty seven hundred. As far as profit,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I make a huge profit, and I'm proud to say
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: that it might sound cold, but I have no guilt
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: for what I do. No, it does sound cold, Andy Kahn.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Just then, Usually I have outrage when it comes to murderabilia,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: but just then I just felt stopped in my tracks
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: at this guy's total lack of empathy for a murder victims' families. Yeah.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I've dealt with Eric Deane, whose real name is Eric Holler,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: who runs the site out of his home in Jacksonville, Florida,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: for years. I've there are seven dealers throughout the country
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: that operate what we call murderabilia sites. I've been monitoring
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: these sites for over twenty years. As you well know
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: in your show that you had When we used to
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: do a lot of shows on murderabilia, eBay we used
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: to be the primary condoment. We had a two year
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: battle with eBay. eBay eventually relented and removed murder Bilia,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: though obviously that's now in contesting right now with the
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Sharon Tate items. So the dealers basically kind of like
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: exterminating cockroaches when you remove them from one site, they
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: simply set up shopping our own. So you have seven
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: dealers that operate under the alias names like Murder Museum,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: True Crime Auction House and Murder Auction, Serial Killers, Inc.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Death Merchant, and so on. It's probably one of the
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: most insidious sick industries that I've ever watched on now
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: for over twenty some odd years, my pet phrase has
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: always been, no one should be able to rob, rape,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: and murder and then turn around and make a buck
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: off of it. I'm a firm believer in free enterprise
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: and capitalism, but I think you got to draw the
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: line somewhere and from a victim's perspective, and as someone
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: who serves on the board of parents and murdered children
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: and surviving family members, on homicide. It's one of the
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: most nauseating and disgusting feelings. As Mark Classwell will certainly
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: attest you to find out the person who murdered one
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: of your loved ones now has personalized items being hawked
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: by third parties for pure profit. It's absolutely gutty and
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: it's shameful that in our country we allow this to
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: prive crime stories. With Nancy Grace, guys, we are talking
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: about the most recent incident of murder Abelia where jewelry
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: and even clothing of Charles Manson victim, the beautiful Sharon Tate,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: those items being hot for a profit on eBay. Her
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: family says they don't even belong to her. What is
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: in the mind of people talking murder rebellia? Things are
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: like serial killers toe nails, their hair, their skin scrapings,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: autopsy photos, crime scene photos. Just the morbid aspect of
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: what is being done to make a dollar is truly
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: stomach turning. Take a listen to this. And I took
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned into
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: an animal almost you know, I just completely let out
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: on that woman's back stabbing. I I didn't really have
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: any idea in my mind, but it's a real feeling.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: It's not even like getting a piece of meat. It's
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: much tougher. I had to use both hands and all
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: my strength behind it to get it in. And so
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: once they started, the feeling was so weird that I
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: just kept doing it. She was dead because I remember
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: seeing her laying bat in front of her closet, all
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: bloody on her stomach, and her head was covered so
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't see her face. I kind of wish I
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: had it because I could see what I've done. More.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Katy get the knife and the food and it wouldn't go.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I remember the man laying on the sofa, Google and
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: deep bloody Google and blew it as the free kiep
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: And then Katy and Jax when I came out of
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: that bedroom and we're taking a shower, and then after
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: that we were hungry until we went and we took
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: some cheese and milk out of the repreator. You are
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: listening to Manson disciple Leslie Van Houghton describing stabbing a
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: human how it felt, and that she was so ecstatic,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: truly reverberating with ecstasy, that she kept tearing the knife
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: down the victim's skin mark. Class you know what, Sometimes
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. And I've been
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: in court with many a pro and managed to come
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: up with arguments right then and there. But when I
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: hear that that's Leslie van Houten Manson disciple describe me
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: having milk and cheese the victor's refrigerator after she just
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: tore a knife through their skin because she liked the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: way it felt. It's just do you ever get overwhelmed?
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Mark Klass, Well, I'm a little overwhelmed. I'm a little
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: overwhelmed right now. You know, Nancy, the very first time
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: I ever heard of memorabilia was when I was contacted
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: by Andy Kahan back in nineteen something, nineteen ninety something.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I had a lot of their back then. Mark, I
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: know you didn't, but according to me, I was not
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: alive then. But you know, he told me that my
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: daughter's killer had things for sale on the internet, and
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I literally lost it. I became apoplectic, I became nonfunctional,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: just realizing the fact that that this this heinous individual,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: this individual who didn't even deserve to be alive, was
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: profiteering on Paulie's death, and what he was selling were
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: drawings that he made and They were remarkably unremarkable drawings.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: There was nothing to them. They didn't even seem to
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: have a sense of the maccabb about them. But he
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: was selling them for a high price based solely on
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: the fact that he had murdered my daughter. So I
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: took that to Adam Schiff, who was a state senator
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: in California at that time, and worked with Senator Schiff
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: to craft the bill that would that would cap the
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: profits on murderabilia only to their intrinsic value, not to
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: any added on value based on the crime that prompted them.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: So I understand where Sharon Kate's sister is coming from.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I understand where her family is coming from. And it's
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: beyond the hail that all of these years later, over
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: fifty years later, they're still suffering the effects of that
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: crime because of the these third grade individuals on the
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Internet that are selling fingernail clippings or fake jewelry or
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. And it's something that should have been
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: ended long ago, but for some reason, there is not
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the wherewithal to outlaw this kind of activity once and
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: for all. I agree with MARKA one hundred percent. Why
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: is this even allowed to happen. Why is this even allowed?
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Why is this a quote unquote privilege to these killers
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: to be able to profit from their crimes. Why did
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: we let those laws go and that they continue on today?
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: And you know, Nancy to what Mark just said. You
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: know one of the descriptions in this it says, this
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: lacks dis believes the love a mother had for her
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: child as well as it's over a hundred years ago,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: clearly meant as an heirloom the charon would have passed
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: down to her children. How about her How about her parents?
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: If this is real? What about her parents? What about
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: her sisters? What about her nieces and nephew. This is
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: the type of stuff that is being taken away from
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: victims who all they have left our memories, items and photos.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: It is a disgrace that this has happened. Am I
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: hearing doctor Sherry Schwartz or at Lisa's strotman that was
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Elisa Stappin. I agree with you, and I want to
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: go back to Mark class and ask Mark when you
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: were first alerted by Andy Kahn who's with us today,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: that Polly's attack r her kidnapper, her murderer. Polly was
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: just a little girl, when he took her from a
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: spin and night party and murdered her. And that smug
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: face he had on in the courtroom at sentencing, and
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: I remember, I remember Mark Class. You tried to get
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: to him, you tried to lunch at him, and you
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: were held back. I wish to God you'd made it.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Would this piece of crap was selling drawings and they
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: relate to Polly, your girl. No, they're not drawings of Polly.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: But the only reason anybody even knows his name is
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: because he murdered Mark Class's girl, Polly, and he is
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: making money not only off drawings, but pictures of himself
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and shorts. I saw those online. I nearly gagged. How
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: is this guy able to do that? When you first
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: heard that from Andy Kott, what went through your mind? Well,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I want to be clear about this, Nancy. Outside of
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: the realization that he had actually done this to Polly,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: which took me a little while to process, this was
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I think arguably the worst moment that I've had over
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the course of the last twenty odd years. And I'm
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: not even quite sure why that is. Because we faced
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: this guy down in trial. The events that you just
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: recounted actually did happen. But when Annie told me about
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: this guy profit hering doing these things and that he
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: wasn't the only one that had included fingernail clippings, I
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: truly and really lost it. In fact, I believe that
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I was on the radio with you at one point
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: talking to one of these vendors, and I had a complete,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: end total on air meltdown. It's it's I don't know
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: why this hit me more than other things hit me,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: but it was about as close to touching evil as
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I've ever been. It's blood, money playing and simple mark
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: in the fact that you had no idea this was
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: going on, and if we had an alerted you, this
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: particular individual would be continuing to be allowed to do this.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Going back to the Manton items on eBay, you know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: eBay could take a stand very simply, and you know
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: we forced them to, you know, you know, years ago,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: to take a stand on murder bilia. eBay doesn't have
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: to allow this. They can simply say the items are
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: being contested, we're pulling them and we don't have to
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: allow this to being sold. So, you know, shame on
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: eBay for even allowing them. Yeah, how did you get
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: them to back off the first time. Andy. The first time,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: it was a two year battle. I put them through
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: the Ringer through basically a national media campaign of exposing
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: hundreds of serial killers, mass murderers, school shooters. They were
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: having items, personalized items being showed on eBay, and then
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: we were I was approached by a producer from twenty
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: twenty who wanted to do a segment and Mark is
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: on that segment as well with me. And at that
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: time we had just started crafting what we call notoriety
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: for profit laws. Most people in this country still assume
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: we have what's called Son of Sam laws, which restrict
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: a convicted balance ability to profit, but most people are
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: unaware of that. The Son of Sam laws were ruled
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court all the way back
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one in a case involving Simon and
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Schuster versus Henry Hill, who's better known as the main
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: character in the movie Good Fellaws. So Son of Sam
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: laws were struck down because most of the language dealt
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: with the issue of free speech, and as you well know, Nancy,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: most courts frown on any language refuting free speech. So
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: what I started doing was crafting laws not dealing with
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: the free speech angle, but simply the issue of profiting.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: So in other words, talk all you want, scratch, sniff, paint, doodle, whatever,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you just don't make money off of it. So at
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: that time, we had a bill filed in Texas. Mark
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: actually had a bill that ended up being passed in California.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: So about two weeks before twenty twenty was scheduled air
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: their segment, eBay sent out a news release stating they
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: will no longer allow the sale of murder Delia at
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: a respect for victims families and had the timing of
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: their news release in a twenty twenty story was merely coincidental.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: So that's how it happened. Well, how the heck did
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: it devolve into this? Because it's happening all over again.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: joining us, take a listen to our friend Matt Grant
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: at W S. H. Richard was the first guy that
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I went into business with. He was the first guy
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: that I wrote. He was the first guy that I
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: heard back from. He wanted me to sell his artwork
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: back to nineties. Did you ever get an ask for
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: a cut of it or did you ask for anything
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: in return. I can't say that these are letters from
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Charles Manson, and reading his writing is practically impossible. There's
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: a very small Manson signature right there. I think he
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: had signed it somewhere, very very small. I think I
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: can't see right my life there players are playing in.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: I think there's a signature of swastika right there. I
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: can't see because my eyes are so bad. I've got
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: better Manson signature. That's another letter of his. Yes, that's
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: another letter. I'll show you a better Manson signature. And
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: this goes from one hundred and fifty dollars just so
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: one page Charlie Manson letter. It's almost too much to
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: take in. I want you to juxtapose that to something
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I just played earlier hour cut to listen to what
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: the Manson Disciples says happened as Manson's followers tore apart,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: literally tore apart their victims. And I took the knife
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: and I started stabbing, and I turned into the animal almost,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: you know, I just completely let out on that woman's
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: bad stabbing. I didn't I didn't really have any idea
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: in my mind, but into a real feeling. It's not
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: even like getting a piece of meat. It's mentioned coffort.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I had out to doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, author
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: of psychology of criminal behavior at panther mitigation dot com,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwarts as a prose former prosecutor. It was
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: not my duty or burden to prove what is going
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: on and the mind of a killer. But let me
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: ask you, did you just hear manson disciple Leslie van
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Houghton doing Manson's bidding, literally tearing apart the victim's skin.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Help me, I have to tell you that listening to that,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: you know, and I had watched over the years their
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: parole hearings because I was interested in the process and
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: wanting to see are they going to get out? I
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: hadn't appreciated before really the utter lack of empathy. It's
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: a very different seeing the person than just listening to them.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: And it almost sounds to me, as she's talking about that,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that there is sort of a sense of pride. Listen
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: to the amount of detail that she goes into, and
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: if there's not a sense of pride, there's certainly a
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: glaring lack of empathy. Right she knows that this is
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: being recorded, She's going on and on and on about
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: these gory details. I mean down to the detail of
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: oh it was, you know, tougher than a piece of meat.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not what you would think, and then
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: we went went and ate sandwiches. This is somebody who
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: has no respect, no reverence for any whatsoever of what
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: has been done. And I want to go to Troy Slayton,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: following up on what doctor Sherry Schwartz just said forensic psychologists. Troy, A,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: there's a rhetorical question, how do you represent people like that?
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: But I know you're not going to give me a
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: straight answer on that. But b you're the LA criminal
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: defense attorney. How do people still get away with profiting
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: of murders like that? Including Sharon Tates Her sister has
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: been thrown into the abyss an emotional abyss by clothing
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: purportedly belonging to her sister, Sharon Tate, pregnant at the
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: time she was murdered, clothing now on sale on eBay
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: and jewelry purporting to belong to her. How are they
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: still getting away with it? Troy well Nancy. Several states
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: have taken action, including Texas, California, New Jersey, Michigan, Utah
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: banning the sale of the so called murderabilia, and so
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the states have taken action. Several years ago, there was
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: an attempt in Congress. Senators Conran and Klobuchar tried to
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: pass a bill that would have banned this on a
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: federal level. Unfortunately that attempt failed. And you have to
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: be very careful in crafting something like this because the
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: ACLU is working hard to fight against any type of
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: prior restraint. Okay, well stop right there. The American Civil
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Liberties Union, they are defied for your constitutional and God
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: given liberties to sell a serial killer's toe, nails and
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: skin scrapings. They really they believe that no matter who
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: you are, whether you're a crime victim or the perpetrator
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: of horrific, heinous acts, that you have the same constitutional rights.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: And there are even some prisoners who will go so
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: far as to melt M and m's and use paint
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: brushes created by their own human hair to paint and
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: sell their artwork out of the prison in a choice.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: So it's just such a pleasure talking to you. I
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: didn't know that, but that's something for me to tuck
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: away and never think about again. Doctor Kendall, Crown's Deputy
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Chief Medical examer and Travis County, Texas. That's Austin. What
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: is she talking about when she is describing stabbing the
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: victim in the back and then ripping ripping the knife
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: down the victim's back, and she said that it was difficult, difficult?
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: What was she was she tearing through muscle? What was
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: she doing? So when you stab someone, it only takes
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: about three pounds of pressure to get through the skin
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: surface to get to the organs. So what it sounds
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: like she's describing is she's probably tearing through the cartilage
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: or the ribs that are along the back, and that
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: would actually make it difficult once you insert the knife
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: to move it because of the bones or the or
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the ribs. So what it sounds like she's describing as
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: pulling it through bone or having to basically hack her
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: way through the bone to continue pulling. You know, Nancy,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: if I can just comment real quickly on that Van Houghton, Sorry,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: go ahead, dear. I released that tape about two years
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: ago for one reason and one reason only. That tape
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: was done at the time that Leslie Van Houghton was
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: switching attorney her post attorney was fired. So this is
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the second half of the class. So we're talking all
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: the way back in nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy. That
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: was her description of the lobby aso murders. Today she
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: takes that same thing and she saft so fick while
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I was doing this, and everything sounded very benign about
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: what she was doing. This is the reality of what
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: these people do. And I think it speaks to why
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: murder abilia is so readily kind of expected in our society.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Unless she's been victimized. It is because people suget how
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: horrible and brutal these murders books and it's people could
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: be reminded of that more often, maybe they wouldn't want
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: to buy these items. What she was speaking to were
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: her own feelings back then that she says, you know,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: I didn't feel this, and I didn't feel that, and
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: I just barely stabbed her after she was dead, and
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: you know this, and that they asked the blood was
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: still running out of the Lobbyancea's body. They ramsacked the closet,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: they took clothing, they took other items from the house itself,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: which for all we know, could end up on a
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: murderabilia site, you know, and now nobody remembers the bootality
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: of this, and that's why that tap is so important.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Let's go back and remember what happened on those tonight.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about what Sharon Tate's sister is going
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: through right now. And I've often described mark class to
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: you and Andy Cohn when asked about the murder of
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: my fiance, Keith. What I haven't really talked about as
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: much is what happened in the courtroom when I was
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: a witness. I remember coming down off the witness stand.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: It was two levels of steps up way up by
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the judge, and coming down I glanced over at the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: States Council table and saw evidence, including the shirt Keith
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: had been wearing that morning when he went to work.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: It was a denim shirt, except now it was covered
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: in dried blood, and there were other items there. That's
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the one I remember. I can only imagine what Sharon Tate,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: pregnant when she was murdered, sister is going through if
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: someone if I found out someone was trying to sell
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: that shirt or sell autopsy photos of Keith. It's just
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: what Elissa Strotman, author of author of Usseless souls just
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: said it seemingly only matters to us crime victims. But
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I think any thinking or would not want this. I mean,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Mark Class just say verbalizing what Sharon Tate's sister must
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: be going through when she allows herself to think about it,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: It's got to be excruciating. And you have gone through this,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Mark Class, well, I have indend it's everything that was
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: described Nancy. Like I said, it was the worst possible
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: moment outside of learning about Paulie's death itself. But in
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: defensive I don't want to say in defensive, but the
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Sharon Tate's family became instrumental in creating victims' rights in
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: the United States. They really barely existed. Her mother, Doris Tate,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: spent years after that crime in bed in almost a
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: comatose state. But at some point she decided that she
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: needed to do something to memorialize her daughter as something
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: more than just the Hollywood curiosity, and she started to
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: pound the pavements in Sacramento, and she created the Dorist
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Hate Act. She really became one of the very first
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: victims advocates in the United States, and her actions spawned
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: a great movement that for some period of time protected
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: crime victims. Unfortunately, then the Internet came around and everything changed.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. The evil of Charles Manson
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: is still being carried out by his dominions. Manson is
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: the biggest wheeler in Yeah, just the Devil's hinchman. And
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: it's amazing to me this is still happening. Um, you
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: know what, take a listen again. Let's get real. I
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: don't want to even hear Charlie Manson's voice, So let's
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: listen to Leslie Mannahut and his chief disciple and our
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: cut number three. This but a mood of it, had
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: no sense behind it. We were all almost fascinated by
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: this thought of killing me. It had to be done,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: and really doing was to saw that I had to
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: be done. Me and Katy and See and Clem. We
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: all went out that night. We went driving around, couldn't
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: find any place, and I was tired, and so we
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: went to sleep. When I woke up, I heard Charlie
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: talking into Sadie and he said, they think it's a
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: robbery to die up, Just go on, and I got
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the wallets, just making quick and easy. So we went in.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: You know the woman, She turned around and what are
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: you guys doing here. She was really kind, just gonna
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: take your money. We was forced to go the women
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: google and pretty hood on her because all of a
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: sudden she jumped up, she got the lamp and I
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: put her back. What was happening to Leo? And we
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: kept moving. We w all right, and then Katy tried
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: to bold and then I send it describing the martyrs
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: wiping out multiple victims and then taking their stuff, and
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: that evil is going on right now, Andy Khan, because
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: the victims items purportedly are still being sold on e Bay.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: He swore they weren't gonna let this happen anymore, but
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: they are. Andy, what are some of the items you
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: have seen? I mentioned I think it was Rocindez Ramirez,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: just his toe nails, Yeah he had, Yeah, he had
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: foot scrapings that they were being sold. That was I
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: actually came up with a top ten lost just because
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: it was The items that I was seeing were just
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: s tell me, probably the worst items that I've seen.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I can't, I guess I could. I'll describe it as
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: bodily fluid from a Massachusetts school shooter that was placed
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: on a magazine. Carver, a dealer actually went to where
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: James Burger Junior, an African American man who most people
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: remember the victim and the Jasper dragging death a murdered
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Billya dealer went to the site where he was dragged
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: to death on a highway and scooped up rocks and pavement.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Then he had the audacity to go to Bird's grave site.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: He has pictures scooping up dirt and then posting them
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: up for sale on Bird's gray site. That was about
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: as revolting as it can get. I have, you know,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: I have items, and the reason I purchase a lot
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: of items mainly because most people don't believe this industry exists.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: So I thought, you know, what would be prudent for
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: me to get items? So when I do lectures, when
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I speak to elected officials, I can actually show them
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: that this industry isn't burgeoning and it's thriving. I have
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: a California fingernail serial killers fingernail clippings, pieces of clothing
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: or shirts. Clime scenes photos are really big in vogue
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: right now, and actually Facebook allows a dealer to post
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: crime scene photos up for sale. Manson was the biggest
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: wheeler and dealer. He actually had CDs. He recorded from
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: his prison cell and he sent them to a company
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: called Hight Devil Records, who actually on the market put
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: out three Manson CDs to be sold sell dust from
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: someone who was in there. You name, anything that can
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: be attached to a high profile killer can and will
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: be sold on the market. You know, Nancy, I'm not
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: sure if you've heard of the Hunted museum that is
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: in Las Vegas. And I bring this up because this
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: guy has taken everything from serial killers to victims. Sharon
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Tate's wedding dress is in this place that he bought
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: some an auction. Other items from Sharon Tator in this
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: place items that belong to Manson. So this isn't just
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: on the internet. This is like one of the biggest
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: attractions in Las Vegas is just basically murderabilia museum. On
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: top of that, the same man that owns that museum
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: actually purchased the La Bianca House for one reason and
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: one reason only. He planned to turn it into a
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: murderabilia museum. And the only reason he didn't do that
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: is because he was turned down for zoning house and
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: facts on the market. This isn't just this is pandemic
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: to the point take a listen to Steve Burgion w
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: lk Ynis Louisville. You could even shop by category cannibals,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: gay killers, satanic killers, and school shooters. There are also
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: other sites selling murderabilia where you can buy serial killer
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: trading cards, Dalmer calendar, rare footage of the Dalmer trial
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: and his TV appearances. Damer eight some of his seventeen victims.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: This would be a subject role consideration hearings for Charles
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Online you can buy copies of Charles manson parole hearings.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Manson had his own Family of Killers. Artwork of John
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Gaycy sells for thousands of dollars. He was known as
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: the killer clown to Danda Sherry Schwartz forhensic psychologist. You
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: can find her at panthermitigation dot com. The killers themselves
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: are the devil. But who are these people sell memorabilia?
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: What's going on in their minds? These are individuals, Nancy,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: who on some level are con artists. They may not
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: be like the con artists that approach you on the
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: street and try to scam you, but they use similar
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: techniques to draw people in to buy these things, and
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: they don't care about the impact. One of your guests
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: earlier said that one of these sellers has absolutely no
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: problem whatsoever with what he's doing. He doesn't feel guilty
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: about it at all. And he's making a killing on it.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: He's profiting on this. And so these are individuals to
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: sell their wares or you know, these items that they
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: come up with. They use emotional appeals to draw people in. So,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: for example, one of the items that's on sale on
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: eBay that supposedly belong to Sharontate the dress, there's an
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: emotional appeal in there. It's somebody saying, oh, I'm nine.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: The seller is saying, I'm ninety three years old, and
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: this belonged to my late son. This was part of
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: his collection. And I'm just trying to recoup costs, you know.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: And I don't really know very much about this industry.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get rich. Well, but of course
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: you are, because why are you selling this? And even worse,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: why are you trying to profit on a family's trauma,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: you know, And so these are these are really it's
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: very infidious, as one of your guests said earlier, because
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: it's subtle and because to the average person who looks
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: at this, you know, they might do an eye roll
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: and say, oh, well, maybe it's for real, maybe it's not,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: and who would spend so much money on that silly thing.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: But really all you have to do is listen to
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Mark Class say, you know, I had a meltdown when
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: I found out my daughter's killer was selling these things.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: That's a trauma response. And really can act with this
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: idea that when you are feeding into this and you're
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: buying these items, and you are perpetuating this type of
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: a business, you're actually perpetuating the victims families trauma. And
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: the Tate family has been dealing with this for fifty
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: two years, Nancy, fifty two years, and not just a
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Tate family, but others. Mark Class, I want to end
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: with you why Yeah, Well, the selling, trading, even existence
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: of this, this murder rebelia is nothing more than a
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: total and complete revictimization of the families that are involved
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: on the murder end of of of these transactions. Every
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: time I see or hear about one of these things,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: it makes my blood boil. Um Andy knows about this.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: I've talked to him many times about this. He's a
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: true champion in trying to eliminate this horrible stuff, but
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: unfortunately it continues to exist. And as long as we
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: continue as we're doing now to coddle these prisoners and
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: have organizations like the ACLU stand up for their rights,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I'm afraid that this is going to be perpetuated time
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: and time again, and it's unfortunate for everybody involved. Nancy
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Grace scrib story signing off good Bye, s