Latest / Private Lending Insights / The Baltimore DSCR Rental Loan Fraud Scheme

Transcript

The Baltimore DSCR Rental Loan Fraud Scheme · Private Lending Insights

• [00:00:00] Rocky Butani: Welcome to Private Lending Insights. I'm your host, Rocky Butani. In this episode, I interviewed Jon Hornik from Private Lender Law and the National Private Lenders Association. The topic of our discussion is the infamous Baltimore DSCR fraud scheme, which affected some of the largest lenders in private lending and may result in millions dollars in losses. [00:00:21] I feel Jon Jon a great person to talk on the subject because most of the lenders that were affected. Our NPLA members and our clients of private lender law. This topic has no doubt been discussed at NPLA meetings, which occur every two weeks. And in these meetings, some of the largest lenders in the space will share a lot of information about what they're seeing in their businesses with all the members. [00:00:44] In this interview, I asked Jon to provide an overview of the DSCR fraud scheme. We talked about the fallout from it and how it affects all the different parties involved. Funding DSCR rental loans, and we also talked about the NPLA's efforts to fight fraud and protect its members. I hope you find this episode to be insightful. [00:01:02] Here's my second interview with Jon Hornik. Jon, thank you for joining me again for this episode of Private Lending Insights. It was great to see you at the NPLA Scottsdale Conference. Your October been since then. [00:01:15] Jon Hornik: I mean, we usually have that conference later in the, the month or even in November. So, uh, Octo, October's been like, quiet so I could focus on what's going on in the space, private lender law, and all the planning for next year. [00:01:28] So it was actually, it was a, uh, like a hectic run. Up into the Scottsdale event, but now I'm enjoying the time off. I'm getting some time for golf, so, uh, pretty good. No complaints. [00:01:40] Rocky Butani: Great. It was an amazing conference. Had a great turnout. I wanna say you had around 500 to 600 people there, right? [00:01:46] Jon Hornik: That's exactly right. [00:01:48] Which, which we're, we're really happy about because we, as you know, we did our third MPLA in Austin the last couple years, and we've outgrown. The venues we were in, so we were kind of scrambling for an appropriate place. And the predecessor firm, the pit bull conference, had a conference at this, this Scottsdale venue. [00:02:09] And uh, we were like, all right, let's go back there. And it was amazing. I, we, we already signed for next year, like it was the right place. You'll laugh coming from California. Um, I thought I was doing a West coast events by going to Austin, Texas. Meanwhile, everybody came up to me, big California turn and said, thank you for finally doing an event out west. [00:02:30] And I'm like, I thought I was out west. 'cause Texas is pretty west. To our northeast guy. So it was very, it was funny, but who knew? I didn't know. Not [00:02:38] Rocky Butani: true. No. We, we in, uh, California, we consider Texas the central and, and the West has all these venues, like Vegas and Southern California and Scottsdale is definitely my favorite. [00:02:50] Jon Hornik: I didn't know Rocky. If somebody would've told me, I would've moved it earlier. I thought I was doing a West Coast event. [00:02:56] Rocky Butani: Well, and and the last time we chatted, you mentioned how you didn't like Vegas for a variety of reasons, but, but Scottsdale, I think is, uh, is kind of your perfect balance. [00:03:06] Jon Hornik: Yeah, I mean, uh, you know what, what we said was Vegas has too many distractions and I get people want to be in Vegas, but there's some people don't do as much business there as they do in a place in Scottsdale where there's not that many distractions, I feel. [00:03:20] So that's why I feel bad. Um, not bad. I feel responsible to my sponsors and attendees in order if they're paying for an event. Everybody who they want to see needs to be at the event. They can't be out at dinners or in clubs or doing other stuff or gambling. And, um, I, I think when you battle those distractions at a conference, it's very hard to throw a successful conference. [00:03:45] Rocky Butani: Good point. And the Fairmont Scottsdale is up in North Scottsdale, so it's further away from Old Town, but there's still lots of stuff to do up there. There's a lot of great restaurants nearby. And overall a great resort with lots of nice amenities. [00:03:59] Jon Hornik: I thought it was great and, and you know, we throw this golf tournament, we got to play TPC, uh, Scottsdale, where the waste management tournament is. [00:04:07] And uh, the whole thing about it was like a home run. And the, the, you know, the, the gym was good, the spa was good, the service was good. If I had one complaints, I didn't love the rooms as much. Um, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're different than what I'm used to. But other than that, I thought, I thought the venue was amazing. [00:04:26] Rocky Butani: Agreed. Well, let's get right into this discussion about fraud in Baltimore with DSCR loans. This was a common discussion at the conference. In fact, you opened up the conference talking about this and, uh, you know, a lot of people I'm sure have heard about this Baltimore fraud case, but they don't know all the details, including myself. [00:04:45] Uh, and so I figured you'd be one of the best people to talk about the subject. [00:04:50] Jon Hornik: So, yeah, so, uh, fraud is a, as our asset class, the Business Purpose Loan, which includes RTL Real Estate Transition Loans and SVR, and in terms of its investor interest, what ended up ends up happening is, you know, fraudsters come, bad actors come and try to take their shot. [00:05:11] And, uh, Baltimore is an ex, appears to be an example of, uh, some bad actors who are trying to work the system in order to make more money than they should have from a traditional loan perspective. Um, Baltimore is a, uh, depressed place. It's not in demand. It's, it's mostly low income. And, uh, the scheme was not in RTL. [00:05:37] It was in DSCR and it was specific to DSCR cash out refinances. So for all the lenders out there, for anybody involved in the space, anytime you're putting money in a borrower's pocket on a property they purchased recently, or even a short time ago, you need to be careful. That's where anytime somebody's trying to take money out is the issue. [00:06:01] So in this case, um. There were a few bad actors who dominated the entire market. So the first problem was whatever they agreed to purchase for became the market because they had so many units there, thousands of units. So there was no longer an arm's length transaction and a between a, a, a willing buyer and willing seller where what they agreed to would've been the market price. [00:06:32] It was all related. So the acquisitions were being, were, were off in terms of the price. And then after the rehab and the stabilization was done, the renting and the values went up astronomically. So we'll give you an example, somebody. Buy a, a unit in Baltimore for $60,000, puts in a hundred thousand in improvements here at one 60, and then leases it and refinances it with a value of $300,000. [00:07:07] Okay? They've put some work in, they deserve to be reimbursed for it, but how much did the value really go up? And that was all in all of a scheme. From a simple standpoint, there is discussion that, uh, there were some appraisers who had acknowledged and they were triggered by a certain number on the appraisal to know, to raise the values. [00:07:32] But that's speculation. Um, I might add there's been no charges brought against anybody in, uh, Baltimore, and it may just, you know, it, it may not turn to be criminal. It may just turn out to be bad. Bet on a bad market. It was sizable enough that it, it raised some, some flags and we're, we're, we're addressing that, as, you know, at the NPLA level and and beyond. [00:07:59] Rocky Butani: So let's dig into the scheme a little bit more. So, these investors would buy up a lot of these houses in Baltimore, rehab them, and then they'd want to cash out their equity. So the problem was the valuations were too high and the appraisers were on it. In on it. Right. And then when they got their DSCR loans, were they just not making payments or did they just walk away from these loans? [00:08:20] So they went into foreclosure? [00:08:22] Jon Hornik: No, they'd actually make payments. But what happened was, uh, one of my understanding is one of the major investors in the space who acquired the paper took a look at the values and said, there's no way that this many units are worth this type of money in this city. I mean, it's just impossible. [00:08:42] The appreciation just was not normal. And, um, you know, sometimes when people are competing for business and they want to be, no one, no originator wants to say no to loans, especially somebody who has a thousand loans that they could throw. Your right, they, they're your partner. You want to do business with them. [00:09:01] But the, the reality is, um, somebody, you, you, you, you can't lend against false values. So, um, what eventually happened to answer your question is some of them start going into default because regardless of what everybody thinks is going on in the market, the market's definitely slower than it was. And when things slow down, it's those depressed markets, those challenged markets, those lower income markets that are always affected first. [00:09:34] That's what you're, that's what we're seeing today. The fallout from that. So, um, I don't think, um, Bal Baltimore was the biggest problem area that surfaced, but it could be applied to every problem. The area out there that are doing these DSER refinances and putting money in the, in the borrower's pocket. [00:09:59] Rocky Butani: Did the foreclosure happen because the. The lender called the loans or, or said, Hey, there's fraud on these loans, so we we're gonna foreclose on it. [00:10:09] Jon Hornik: No. Usually foreclosure is triggered by failure to pay, and then if the loans are cross defaulted, failure to pay on a pool one or a pool of loans would trigger the rest of the portfolio. [00:10:23] The um. What you're speaking about is the fraud goes to, uh, buyback obligations from originators who are out there. So what happens is a lender originates a loan. He sells it to an investor to get it off his balance sheet and under, uh, MLPA or some kind of master loan purchase agreement. And in that agreement, there are reps made. [00:10:49] One of the reps is that there's no fraud and if there is fraud. That investor gets to trigger a buyback obligation to the investors. So that's where the fraud would've come into play. When markets slow, when economy slow, everything slows. So the low end of the market, they couldn't find tenants to occupy the building and they, they, they weren't selling them quick enough to keep, to keep the, the, the scheme running. [00:11:17] It just, you know, you know, the same when the tide goes down, it shows all the bad stuff on everybody. Well, that, that's what happened here. And, uh, but, um, there were, I don't think a large number of the portfolio at the time was technically in default. It was just that this valuation problem was discovered. [00:11:40] And originators were asked to repurchase the loans because they, because the investors believed the scheme I described was fraudulent, and that is a violation. Of their MLPA, the investors would claim, I didn't wanna name any names, but my understanding was there was a trade between an insurance company and a conventional bank, and a conventional bank, a very large conventional bank, took a look at this Baltimore situation and said, these values don't make sense to me. [00:12:14] And started digging it and, and, and uncovered, uh, what's going on, you know? Uh. Um, I just did a post. I'm doing these, uh, short posts, maybe you've seen them. And there's, there's one, uh, Jamie Diamond used the word, there's cockroaches in private credit, and all of these loans are so, you know, business purpose loans fall under the umbrella. [00:12:35] Private credit, it's, it's credit being extended by private companies, not conventional banks. And he said, uh, you know, they're cockroaches. Coming out and, you know, anytime you shine a light where there are cockroaches, there's never just one, right? There's always a bunch. And you see them scatter. Now, uh, uh, one of the other, uh, economists said that, uh, cockroaches are okay as long as they're not termites. [00:13:04] 'cause termites or ants eat away the foundation, right? And that's what happened in 2007. The whole entire system was broken. Um, that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is you have some, uh, bad actors who got away with maybe for some period of time, a way to take money out and they shouldn't have, and now the light's been shined on them and cockroaches scatter when the. [00:13:31] Light is shined on them. And I think that's what's happening now in our space. I think we're clamping down on it and I think, um, everybody's getting, uh, everybody's smarter from what occurred and we're gonna get better at what we do in order to protect the asset class. [00:13:45] Rocky Butani: Do you know how many lenders were victims of this fraud scheme? [00:13:49] Jon Hornik: Yes, I did. I mean, roughly, probably about a dozen. [00:13:52] Rocky Butani: And were the fraudsters getting loans from multiple DSCR lenders? [00:13:57] Jon Hornik: Yes. [00:13:58] Rocky Butani: Okay. So they'd get a portfolio loan from one lender and then they'd go to the next lender for another group of properties and so on. [00:14:04] Jon Hornik: Thousand loans is a lot. Nobody's gonna do all a thousand. [00:14:07] So they're gonna spread 'em out over, uh, a lot of the DSCR lenders in the space. [00:14:12] Rocky Butani: Makes sense. And do you know the approximate loss that was incurred by these lenders? [00:14:16] Jon Hornik: I don't listen. Speculation. I heard it was around $164 million. I'm sorry, not loss. 164 million in loans, like a loss happens when collateral is sold at the end of the day, years down the line, and you had what you owed and what you got paid back. [00:14:36] It's not gonna be nearly that number I know it was allegedly 164 million in, in, in uNPLAid principal balance of loans that were the subject of this bold divorce situation. [00:14:49] Rocky Butani: Thank you for clarifying that. I, I guess I misworded my question. [00:14:53] Jon Hornik: Well, you know, a a, a write down to zero is different than a write down to, you know, maybe if they recover a hundred and 120 million on 164, it's still a loss, but it's not 164 million. [00:15:07] Rocky Butani: How does this whole fraud scheme affect DSCR loans moving forward in terms of lenders having to do more due diligence or more underwriting to fund these loans? [00:15:18] Jon Hornik: There's a disconnect between investors demand for the business purpose, loans, specifically the DSCR, and uh, what the originators are seeing on the front end. [00:15:29] So you measure the investor's concern with something called the credit spread. The difference between the interest rate that we all know that's out there, that's based on the five year or the 10 year or the 30 year treasury, and then there's a premium, the risk amount, and that's called the spread. And you've heard the term that spreads are blowing out or spreads are wide, that's when an investor needs to be paid a ton of money above the interest rate to take the risk on the asset class. [00:16:02] So the latest securitizations in the DSER space for Business Purpose Loans, the spreads have been real tight, 140, 150 basis points. The investors seem to be unfazed. By what's happened in terms of their demand for the product. Now, the originators, which is where we run the National Private Lending Association, are dialed into this and they're taking it very seriously. [00:16:27] One of our, our, our largest and closest clients had re-upped. Their evaluation process on each of their DSCR loans in these type of markets to make sure that the secondary evaluations are done in an objective manner in order to tie in and verify the appraisals on the front end. So, and, and I compliment this company, they'll re remain nameless because I don't wanna bring anybody's name into this, but they're doing their job because they know they're preserving their business. [00:16:58] They wanna underwrite good paper. They want their investors to have, continue to have faith in what they're doing. And so that influence in the space is obvious. On the NPLA level, we're coming up with a best practice valuation method. We're gonna call it the NPLA method, which is now being circulated to investors, uh, outside, uh, all investors to get their comments. [00:17:23] And then we're gonna take it to the rating agency. Recommend that this process be used instead of an alternative process. 'cause we believe the alternative process that's being used today is not identifying these type of problems. Um, the secondary process in effect today, uh, is really rubber stamping the original appraised value. [00:17:47] And if the appraiser's in on the scam, you, the, uh, no one can be protected. So we've come up with a different method. I compliment the NPLA leadership. People are invested, but they know they're protecting their businesses, their livelihoods, and, uh, we're gonna self-correct this problem ourselves. Um, so that's the first thing we're doing, that all the originators are involved. [00:18:11] And in, and at the NPLA meeting, it was, it was, it was the most talked about topic. [00:18:16] Rocky Butani: I'm sure by now all the institutional investors that buy this paper know about this fraud case. All the lenders, uh, that originate DSCR loans know about this case, and there needs to be some new standards with, uh, with underwriting DSCR loans and maybe, uh, doing a a second valuation. [00:18:37] Is there a standard process for that moving forward? Or what are some of the other, uh, what are some of the lenders around the country doing to address this moving forward? [00:18:46] Jon Hornik: I think the method needs to be adopted, ultimately signed off by the, the originators of the, the original originators of the DSCR loans, the bigger guys, right? [00:18:58] Then you take it up to the investors and you get a bunch of the investors to go, that works, and then you go to the rating agency and go, we want you to rate the loans that use this method better. Then those that don't, which means they're, let say these loans that have used the NPLA method of valuation are less risky and therefore cost, you should pay less to the investors as a result by using this method. [00:19:33] Ultimately, that's where you want to be. That's a very hard place to get to from the rating agencies, but we have. Uh, the NPLA has grown in terms of its influence, in terms of its support, in terms of its recognition, and we're committed to doing this because it has to get done. I mean, it, this is, this has to be, this cannot, this isn't one of those things like, oops, it didn't work because we're fighting for, we're all in the same livelihood, right? [00:20:03] We're all there. Like, this has to work. So that's what we're, we're pushing for. [00:20:08] Rocky Butani: And for the lenders out there that don't originate DSCR loans and they only do fix and flip or rehab to rent or any, anything short term RTL loans, how does this affect those lenders? [00:20:22] Jon Hornik: RTL um, is not subject to this Baltimore fraud. [00:20:27] Okay. Uh, it is not, um, it, it, it is not at risk the same way the DSCR product is, but, uh. Listen, it's just a matter of time before somebody goes back to the RTL lenders and try something else. So this is, you know, you gotta stay awake and engaged because the, the stuff isn't just limited to a bad actors aren't limited to one product. [00:20:50] They, they try every scheme possible to put money in their pocket when it's inappropriate. So they need to stay awake and stay on it and listen. 'cause they will tweak their internal method valuation methods as a result of what we come up with. As a solution to this Baltimore, uh, situation. [00:21:10] Rocky Butani: So the RTL lenders did have some participation in this process because those investors had to acquire the properties and rehab them. [00:21:20] So they were most likely getting, uh, a fix and flip loan [00:21:24] Jon Hornik: or using cash or we're, we're not sure. That's where we know that it was purchased at a inexpensive price, rehabbed with some money. Reevaluated at a ridiculously high level and then leased out to support that higher level, and then it was refinanced, sold and refinanced and cash was put in the borrowers buying. [00:21:48] Rocky Butani: Do you think that DSCR lenders are gonna start scrutinizing How much? The borrower invested on the rehab loan where they, they, maybe there's some borrowers out there that can find lenders to fund a hundred percent of the project costs where they're not putting any money down. They have no skin in the game, but they've, they've got a, a rehab loan to increase the value and then they try to get a cash out, refinance the SCR loan. [00:22:14] Do you think the DSCR lenders are gonna look at that and say, Hey, we're not gonna lent you? 'cause you didn't put any money into the steal. [00:22:20] Jon Hornik: Yeah. It depends on how, listen, how bad the lender wants the business. Right? And, and, and how you look at equity, um, as a fundamental underwriting tool. Having the borrower put skin in the game is always the smartest way to keep their attention and to know they're exposed. [00:22:37] Right? When they're borrow, when they're borrowing a hundred percent, what do they care? They'll take their shot. Um, I don't believe, um. That it's a requirement for a lot of lenders out there, for the borrower to put in money on A-D-S-E-R refinance after they've completed a successful RTL loan. Right? [00:22:58] There's not, it's not important. It's not important. Some, it may be, I know on acquisition of the property, the, uh, lender wa the, uh, RTL lender wants to see skin in the game. 15, 20, 20 5%. Now, can that come from a second mortgage? Um, some lenders look away from that. Can that come from a MES loan? Some lenders look away that way. [00:23:21] Remember, it's a balancing act between closing deals and staying in business and protecting yourself. If there are lenders out there, RTL lenders who are advancing a hundred percent, and that's your competition. You gotta figure out a way to do business too. So it's, it's, it's like threading a needle sometimes for these, for these lenders. [00:23:44] Rocky Butani: Yeah, that's a good point. There's hardly any lenders out there that offer a hundred percent financing. And maybe there is a small percentage of lenders in that Northeast or Mid-Atlantic market that, uh, do lend locally and, and fund a hundred percent of the deal. [00:23:58] Jon Hornik: I think borrowers, um. Like lenders, first of all, let's, let's dial back. [00:24:04] 'cause money comes top down, right? It comes from investors to originators, to from originators to borrowers. So right now investors are looking at their loans before they're buying them from the originators and asking questions, how did you get to this value? Why do you think it's gonna be worth more than this? [00:24:26] This is a new trend. This used to be on a, on a programmatic basis, an originator close, a pool of loans. The investor buys them all, and we move on. Never did the investor start going through the portfolio and go, Hey, 1, 2, 3, sheep side bay. I want to talk to you about this loan. I mean, it's, it's, to get that call from an investor six months ago was, was unheard of. [00:24:51] Today it's becoming more common, which means that the originators need to be able to answer the call. With intelligent answers, and that means they need to understand the files better. So they're going back to the, your question, the borrowers more, tell me why you think it's worth this much. Tell me why, how much money you put in. [00:25:12] Show me where the money came from, yada, yada, yada. So, so it, it comes top to bottom, but it's definitely more scrutiny to prove out real equity and real value on deals. And there's been in quite some time. [00:25:27] Rocky Butani: Besides this Baltimore DSCR fraud case, has there been any other fraud schemes that have been prevalent in 2025? [00:25:35] Jon Hornik: So, uh, prior to Linda Delore, we close 2000 loans a month. We see one every week. You know, somebody trying to sneak one by, uh, a bigger one. A big one that's been going on now is you've heard of people trying to steal properties from people. So, so a latest one, a very wealthy area in New Jersey. A home worth $20 million, no debt was brought to a lender and said, I only want to borrow a million and a half dollars. [00:26:03] I am gonna put it on here. It's in my name. What happened was a fraudulent deed was filed from the existing owner, which was in an A limited liability company, transferring it to a new LLC Ford signatures. It was fine. They went to an A lender and they had a LOI that said they were gonna give 'em a loan. [00:26:25] They showed me. The deed and the LOI to a new lender and the new lender would go, my God, a million and a half on a $20 $20 million. That's a no brainer. No problem, I'll do it. The only problem is that new lender knew the owner of the house and knew he didn't need a million and a half dollars and actually flagged the problem, and it ended up so the stealing of properties on high value assets. [00:26:52] What's going on? And people, you have to be aware of that. People worry about their identity being stolen. They have to worry about their properties being stolen as well. [00:27:00] Rocky Butani: And what can real estate investors do to protect themselves? And also the lenders, how do they catch this fraud? [00:27:06] Jon Hornik: Having debt on your property helps you, right? [00:27:08] Like having any loan or some kind of financing, because that's of record and a transfer, they're gonna be notified. So, and also nobody's gonna lend against the property if there's a senior debt on it of any amount, unless it's a secondary lender and somebody who's kind of in on the scheme. So that's a, you have to, uh, check your records. [00:27:29] You could run title searches periodically, make sure thi things weren't stu, you know, you call any title company and, and run a title search and see who's the owner. And you just have to be aware. You can't, you know. There are a lot of fraudsters out there today, and we have to be careful and we have to stay aware, especially with where technology and AI is more and more is gonna be happening [00:27:50] Rocky Butani: at the Scottsdale conference. [00:27:52] I remember you mentioned on stage, you talked about this bad actors list that the NPLA is going to make available to, uh, all the members. Tell us a little bit more about that. [00:28:03] Jon Hornik: So all the investors out there have internally. Bad actors, people who they won't give loans to. And, um, we wanna share that information With the private lending space, all originators should know which individuals or entities that investors have flagged as not worthy of extending credit to. [00:28:28] They don't necessarily need to know why. They just need to know that a major investor has said no to doing a loan with Rocky Tani. And it's up to them if they want to give you a loan or it's up to them how much of a loan or how much scrutiny they want to do to you. So the purpose of the NPLA Watch list database is we are collecting from major institutional investors. [00:28:53] Everybody's lists we're consolidating into a searchable database, and NPLA members will have access to this database to be able to search names or entities that they're doing business with to see. F an institutional grade investor has made a decision not to extend that person's credit. [00:29:15] Rocky Butani: That sounds like a great benefit to your members. [00:29:17] Has that already been formed? Is it in existence right now? [00:29:21] Jon Hornik: Yeah, so we're in the, uh, final state. We're, we're, our deadline is to roll it out this month. We have investors signed up already to provide the data. Uh, we're finishing the technology now. Uh, I'm told it's done. I have to, we have to test it for a couple days and so we're confident it's gonna be rolled out in the next two weeks and, uh, made available. [00:29:42] It'll be a, uh, a growing database over time. So we will add investors to it and give them access. We really want people to come together and share it this way. Um, you, again, you're not gonna get information on why an individual or what he did. You will just know that an institutional great investor will not extend them credit. [00:30:05] Now, you could call us and we could reach out to the investor and say, Hey, do you wanna have a discussion about it? If you're an originator, is it something worth you want to give color on? If they say, no, the answer's no. Take what you want, but at least you're going into the loan as an originator with eyes open. [00:30:22] This person's been flagged, do what you will after that. But I think it's gonna be a valuable tool, and I'm proud that the NPLA was able to, to pull it together from all these different resources, both from an originator standpoint and most importantly from an investor to get an investor buyin. [00:30:40] Rocky Butani: Love it. [00:30:40] Well, thank you for sharing all your insights about the Baltimore DSCR fraud case. Everything that the NPLA is doing to fight it. [00:30:48] Jon Hornik: Listen, it's my pleasure. It's, um, listen, we're, we're I invested in this space, uh, I love what I do and, um, any way we can make it better, we're committed to doing that. [00:30:58] Rocky Butani: Great. [00:30:59] Thank you for your time and look forward to seeing you at the next conference in Miami, [00:31:03] Jon Hornik: March. March, Miami. No, better place. Good seeing you, Rocky. Be good. [00:31:07] Rocky Butani: You too. Thanks again. And that's a wrap for this episode of Private Lending Insights. Follow Jon Hornik on LinkedIn to see frequent updates about what's happening in private lending, originations and capital markets. [00:31:19] Also follow NPLA uh, on LinkedIn and visit NPLA online.com to learn more about the National Private Lenders Association and their various conferences that they host. They have three per year that they host. The next one is in Miami in March, 2026, and it's their largest one. I am planning to attend that Miami conference and looking forward to it. [00:31:41] That's all for now. Thanks for tuning in and listening all the way to the end.