Latest / Flyer Magazine / How to fly for less - The Flyer Show, September 4 2025

Transcript

How to fly for less - The Flyer Show, September 4 2025 · Flyer Magazine

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Flyer Show.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Flyer Show.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: My name's Ian Siegner.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Ed Hicks.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm Dave Corderwood.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_05: Later on we'll be talking about how to fly for less.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_05: It was not a case of rain-stopped play for the LA rally.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: And the residents are revolting at Gloucestershire Airport.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_05: So you'll have noticed some changes to the start of the show.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_05: One of those is the Welcome to the Flyer Show bit of video.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_05: If you fancy doing your own, uh please record it, landscape for us.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_05: And yeah, send it in and you can start the show.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_04: Plus, we'll be celebrating a couple of birthdays.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_04: But first, I have to say a big thank you, as usual, to Sky Demon for supporting the live stream.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: And here is your tip for this week.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, I'm Rob from Sky Demon, and here's another top tip.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Our aerial photography feature makes it easy to see what an unfamiliar airfield will look like from above.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: But if you've got Google Earth installed on your device, Sky Demon also offers a 3D view that allows for more detailed exploration.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Tap the 3D button here, next to the one for aerial photography.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Google Earth will then open and take you to the view down the approach.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Here we can pan and rotate the view in full 3D to get a feel for the airfield layout and surrounding terrain.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Having an idea in advance of how a particular approach should look can add an extra layer of reassurance for that crucial end stage of the flight.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: For more information, check out our website www.skydemon.ero.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's a pretty cool tip.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: I have to say, if you need to go somewhere that you're unfamiliar with, that's a great way of prepping before you go.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean it's um Sky Demon's all about being prepared, and that is um that's a useful one.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: I guess it will help you find a grass airfield in a grassy.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_05: In a sea of grass airfields.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so we've just had a weekend with very variable weather.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_05: Should we see what uh our weather forecast uh Dr.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_05: Simon Keeling has in store for us?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, Simon Keeling here with your flying weather outlook for the week and weekend ahead, brought to you exclusively by Fly in association with weatherschool.co.uk.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for watching.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we headed for the best of the days being Friday and Saturday this week, becoming warmer and becoming drier briefly.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Although there will be some low cloud around, and Saturday does look as if it's going to become breezier.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: It then turns more mixed on Sunday, and then we head into uh rather changeable uh next week.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for Friday, as I say, things improving, high pressure building in.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: However, this is quite a moist southwesterly flow that's gonna be flowing into the country.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: It brings low cloud and mist across southern and western Ireland, western and southern coast of Wales, as well as probably southwest and central southern parts of England, maybe even western Scotland.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's these areas where at times we're gonna go marginal to non-VFR, and basis could be a thousand feet or less, a particular in coastal fog tops around 4,000 feet.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there will be breaks and there will be areas where it's completely flyable.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um but just be aware that low cloud could be affecting many areas.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, elsewhere, away from that western southern coastal areas, so we're going to be finding conditions improving through the day.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: The cloud will break basically to 4,000 feet, tops at 8,000 feet overall, not a bad day.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Saturday.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: More of a south to southeastly breeze on Saturday.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: In the east, probably 15 to 18 knots.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: In the west, maybe 20 to 25.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And again, maybe a little bit of low cloud, particularly southern and eastern parts of Ireland on this one.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, generally non-verhair because of the drizzle, but other areas generally are going to be fair, some decent spells of stoneshine around.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the southern coast of Cornwall, possibly southern coast of Devon, could again have some low cloud, but most areas are free from cloud, 4,000 foot bases, 7,000 foot tops, and warm as well.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: On to Sunday Morbix, does the fronts move their way eastwards, taking out breaks of rain with them?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Periods of hefty rain associated with the coal front, not so much the occluded front, but generally it's not very far for most of us.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Although that area between the occlusion and between the coal front may be somewhere where you can fly, but typical base is one to two thousand feet, tops 10 to 15,000 feet.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: The far east may be okay at first and probably improving across Ireland as well through the afternoon.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: The base is lifting 3,000 feet here, around a 10 to 12,000 foot top before more showers arrive in the west.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Quite breezy too, particularly in northern and western areas.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I will leave you with that for now.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to go to weatherschool.coek.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's where you can do your online pilots guide to Scootes and use the contact form to let me know that you want me to tell you as soon as the next weather school dates are announced.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever you're doing, have a great, have a safe flying weekend.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for watching.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Keep the sun shining and bye for now.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_05: So this weekend looks a bit more promising than maybe last weekend.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_05: Talking of last weekend, what were you up to last weekend?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_05: It was the rally.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_05: It was indeed.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we were all all there at various times, weren't we?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_05: We were.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_05: I went on Friday by car with Henry.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was already there and spent three days there, and you turned up on Sunday, didn't you?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was good weather on Sunday morning, but uh did go pear-shaped after lunchtime.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and uh I overall the rally was uh well uh it was definitely a success considering the forecast um that a few days ahead had been awful.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_05: Um everyone had been expecting to lose pretty much everything to rain and uh rain and wind.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um but and a whole bunch of people did cancel their slots.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think there was talk of 120 slots being cancelled on the Thursday ahead of the show.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_05: Uh but I think what that did is meant that a whole bunch of people chose to drive instead of fly in.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um so fly-in, fly-ins were low, but foot traffic at the show was was definitely higher.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_05: And there was a lot of good stuff to see.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: There was.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: It was it was it was good.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I think, you know, let's let's be honest about it.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: The weather put a bit of a dampener on it.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: There were there were significantly fewer people flying in, but there was a good number of people.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_04: All of the trade stands were sold.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, a couple of people who remarked that all of the trade stands were sold, but all of the interesting aircraft were actually BMAA aircraft.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's it's a bit of a shocker, really, isn't it?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes you go to the LAA rally and um on all the all the new and exciting aeroplanes, pretty much, I think, with the exception of one one aeroplane there, uh all the new 600 kg microlite types were um uh are under the uh under the umbrella of BMAAs.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: With the exception of one aeroplane.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_05: The A32 Vixen.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: Which which is uh 600 kg microite.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_04: 600 kg micro light, yeah, absolutely.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the only one that's done by the LAA.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's currently, yeah, the only one that's six yeah, 600 kg with them.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_05: So but otherwise there was the um there was the JMB VL3.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there was uh the Sky Leader 600, and the 400 turned up.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think that was there on Saturday.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there was also the um uh the TL stream, which was newly approved, fresh with its new UK approval.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: So there was a Groppo as well, wasn't there?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_05: The Grupo, uh yeah, the um the Grupo agent brought the Grupo G70 um in, which is shocked mission there.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: I actually prefer the nose wheel version to the tailwheel version.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_04: Ooh, that is so welcome to the live stream, which will be just Ed and I from now on.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: That is a shocker.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I just thought it looked really tough and good and helped useful, and I think uh I think you you you could fly just about as many places in the nose wheel version as the tailwheel one, and sometimes feel more confident if it's a crosswind.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think you're right.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: I think I think you're right as well.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean the whole taildriver thing is a little bit like a hairy pewter tankered.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's a Morris dancery type thing, isn't it?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh I tell you what I also I liked was the uh the Murphy Rebel, which I know is not a brand new aeroplane, but Murphy are going to make a bigger effort to uh to bring it in over here.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean they were um so they it's first time in years.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_05: I mean I remember when the Murphy agent turned up in the late 90s with the Rebel.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh but there was a UK-built rebel, uh there was a UK-built Rebel at the show, uh, and Murphy actually sent um sent one of their top guys and some staff, and uh yeah, so all the way from Chili Wack in Canada, uh, and they were there and they have a renewed enthusiasm for the aeroplane.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_05: They were saying that um uh they're actually looking at the RoTAX 916 as a power plant.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_05: So I didn't pick that.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_05: I think that would be really good.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but I mean I I think it not not to be critical at all, but I think it's it's a little bit sad, is that the right it's uh indicative, I guess, is the word I'm looking for.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the the event wasn't full of new to the uh new types, whether they be to the LAA, um, so not not lots of new kits that we can go out and start building and stuff like that.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: It feels a little bit you know, the Murphy I'm really glad the Murphy stuff's happening, but the Murphy, as you say, is an old airplane.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's like a it's like a remake of an old film kind of thing rather than uh rather than a new film.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's great that it's happening, but we need we need some new stuff.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: New new types always bring enthusiasm.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to remember you'll know this.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: I I won't.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to remember what the last new type approved on as a kit was.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: The R V14, I guess.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_05: It was either the uh the certainly the last three have been the R V14, the Sling TSI, and the uh KFA Safari.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_05: Which I didn't see the Safari there.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh no, there was uh no Safari there.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's a there's the new Swiss aircraft that's coming to the UK, the Shark, all of that kind of thing.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: They're not LA kits for sure, but the the I didn't see those either.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: What's happening about the high-wing version of the sling?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's um well approval of that is moving on.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh there's a number of aircraft being built, uh primarily at I think at Top Farm, uh, which is kind of UK base for um for sl uh for Sling UK.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um certainly when I last spoke to Tim Hardy, who's the UK Sling agent, um they were making he was confident that the the high wing was progressing towards what should be a successful approval.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_05: There's still flight testing to do.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_05: But he was only ever going to say that.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I know.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, you're not gonna say, not gonna say anything otherwise.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_05: But uh, you know, he's been through the system before.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_05: He's done two uh he's done the sling two, he's done the sling four, sling TSI.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_05: So he should have a an idea of of of what's in the future for that type and has dealt with the LAA.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_05: So um yeah, and the the aircraft has a history elsewhere in the world.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: So what you can say is that the Leicester Aero Club, who basically run the event from a from an organization point of view, they were superb.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: It really was a very well-run event.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I unless I that the rally appears, you know, the rally the rally was at Leicester back in the uh very late 70s and early 80s.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_05: The return to Leicester last year was I know it was a magnificent success.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and this year, even though the weather got in the way, I think it was a great show.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_05: And I know I hope it continues because Leicester seems like a great venue for it.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I like less.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_04: I like it less if I have to drive up there.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: But do you know what I'd like to do next year?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: Cycle?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'd like to stay in an RV overnight for the whole rally.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was talking about.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_05: I think Dave has been killed by aliens.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_05: You're not gonna if I if I put a sleeping bag in the R V3, that's gonna be a really uncomfortable place to stay.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_05: But I'm guessing not that kind of RV.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, no.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: I thought I can't camp.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'd never get up in the morning, back just sees up.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, an RV, I could see that.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: It'd be nice to enjoy the event as an event rather than just going there for news, if you like.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, well, we're talking about birthdays, but um, this birthday we're thinking about is for the Robinson R22, which had its first flight 50 years ago.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and do you know who flew that first flight?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna guess it was Frank Robinson.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: You're right, Frank, who the inventor of and creator of the Robinson Helicopter Company, he had this vision of a personal helicopter which became the R-22.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, yeah, 50 years ago, he was he was the guy who made it fly.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: And since then, he's built a whole company with a full range of helicopters, the R22, the R44, the R66 turbine version, and coming up at some point in the future, the R88, bigger, wider, more utility.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: But um, the R22 was the one that started it all, and they said that if you could fly an R22, you could fly any helicopter.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: I guess you've done some helicopter training, you've got a helicopter PPL.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: I had I've got a lapsed helicopter PPL, most of which was done on an R22.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: And isn't the most difficult thing in an R22 reacting to an auto auto-lander, whatever it's called?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's a while since I've done aerodynamics of helicopters, but effectively, when you are taking off and transitioning, that's the time when you're pulling most collective and most power.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: So the blades are at their their coarsest pitch, if you like, but you haven't yet accelerated to maximum translational lift, transitional lift.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: I can't remember what they call it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so if you have an engine, if you have a sudden engine failure at that time, that's when you've got the most drag on the blades without the help of the air coming through it as well, fast enough.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: So that's when you've got to get the collective right down very quickly to a quarter of a second or something.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: I can't remember exactly what it is, but it's it's quick.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean it's it's less quick when you're in the cruise, but you still don't have forever.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's not like a jet ranger where you can go, let me just finish the crossword and kind of thing.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_05: But it's it's pretty quick.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_05: Do you think that the R22 was the right product and the right time?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_05: And we've probably got a whole generation of helicopter pilots thanks to it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: Before we move on to the next story, I should probably just say that Robinson's 50th is not the only birthday today.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_04: Today is actually Dave's birthday.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: So happy birthday, Dave.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna spare you.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna spare you the singing, I think.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's more than 50, I can tell you that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh the next story is um from Gloucester, where the residents are revolting.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um they are a nice bunch, but you'd have seen a BBC story last night.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: The residents are effectively concerned about the uh change to the Horizon Group, who are one of the pot who are the preferred bidder for the Gloucester and Cheltenham Council.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_04: They're offering more than the 25 million um that it was valued at.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_04: But Stuart Vincent, head of the family firm RGV and one of the biggest companies and employers at Gloucester, has written a letter.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_04: So just a quote from the BBC story here.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: In the letter, shared by the BBC, RGV aviation boss Stuart Vincent claimed Horizon had already hosted numerous external investors on site, seemingly with the intention of parceling and selling off parts of the airport land.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: If the land was to be sold for housing and commercial development, RGV estimates that it would be worth 400 million.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um RGV has also put on hold a significant multi-million pound investment in their own uh company and its growth and its structures because of what it sees as the uncertainty.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I think there's this we're at the due diligence phase at the moment.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it'd be fair to say there's a lack of um enthusiasm for the future and uh uh uh some deep concern for the future.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_05: I know the council did say uh when Horizon were announced as preferred bidder, uh there was talk of a 50-year covenant, wasn't there, saying um there won't be it will be aviation activity for at least 50 years, no development.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, and again and again to quote, um after naming Horizon as the preferred buyer, Gloucester City Council leader Jeremy Hilton had also said that the sale will include a strict 50-year covenant to stop developers building on the land.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, just look back to Plymouth Airport, which was sold by the council to a property development group, and it was operated as an airport for a little while, but then the property development group invoked what they called the Armageddon Clause.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, it was losing too much money and they decided to build houses on it instead.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_05: I guess, yeah.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_05: And and it's the whole we don't know what the what's actually written, what's going to be written in any transfer of ownership.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Do you not get the impression council just want the money and out?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's probably true.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: Let's be honest, there was a time when Gloucester was the best general aviation airport in the country.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um probably in Durham Lewington's day.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: It was it was just a brilliant place.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: It is not that brilliant place anymore.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_04: There are all sorts of issues.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's not an unpleasant place, but it's certainly not as good as it used to be.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe Horizon will come in and reinstate those former glory days.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: Who knows?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: Back to 80,000 plus movements, wasn't it?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: So the final story is a bit of a difficult one to tell at the moment because it's still evolving.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the fact that the the Evector Eurostar, the EV-97, one of the best and most popular microlite aircraft, um, is going through a bit of an issue.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's got an issue with uh a rose joint that's used in the aileron controls, and it basically they wear out.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, some of these aircraft are 15 years old now, so that's not surprising things to wear out.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: But it has to be replaced, and it's not an easy thing necessarily to replace, but it's been a service bulletin issued by the company that um looks after them, basically.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, that's uh Airmasters.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's a bit going on there.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: We haven't quite got to the bottom of the story yet, so we'll have to come back to that probably next week.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_04: Keep an eye on the website in the meantime.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we'll update you when we can.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: So we saw some really lovely but expensive aircraft at the LA rally, something like the VL3, really lovely aeroplane, but they're gonna cost you know in excess of£300,000 plus VAT if you go for a full spec one.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that got us thinking, it must be a cheaper way to go flying.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we're all interested in saving a bit of money these days.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember having a conversation with you, and you said the very first thing a PPL should do, having got their PPL, is join a group.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's a cheap way to go flying.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: You can put in lots of hours, you haven't got to worry about hurrying the club school aircraft for for uh£200 an hour or whatever.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I went looking for a group and I found this absolutely superb one at Popham for a month for an overall fee of about three grand, uh, plus a month plus a monthly cost of£90 and the hourly flying cost.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'll come back to that in a minute.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: You get the choice of three aircraft.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: There's a Robin DR 400, uh that's a hundred that's a four-seater, and that comes in at£120 an hour.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's also a Robin DR221, which is a four-seat tail dragger, that comes in at£90 an hour.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: Fantastically competitive, that's great.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it's also access to something called a Vassama WA52.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: I've never heard I don't know what that is.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds like a washing machine, but uh anyway, that comes in at also£120 an hour.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, you get to fly from Popham, which is one of the most enjoyable airfields to go to.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: I have to say, I feel quite strongly about this.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: I think too many people, unfortunately, do their do their PPL, spend you know, maybe 18 months, a couple of years getting their PPL.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_04: Inevitably will rent almost inevitably rent the aircraft that they learnt to fly on and go to some of the similar places.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: Unless you transition from that into either owning your own aircraft, which is just you know quite a big hill to climb at the very beginning, or being part of a group which gives you an opportunity to learn with others and spread your wings, as it were, um, then then it's really easy for people to drop out.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: And too many people go through all of the expense and the hassle and the and the real kind of achievement of learning to fly and stop flying after a couple of years.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I think becoming part of a group is like one of the essential things that people should do and start looking for as soon as they got their PPL, if not before.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_05: It's like you say, and the nice thing about a group is you're in with other people, probably some more experience than you.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and it encourages A, you learn from other people, B, those people will probably go, hey, let's we're going to so-and-so.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_05: Why don't you tag along?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it's all those motivating forces, isn't it?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_05: And I think a group is great for that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: If you get a group right and you need to choose your members correctly, if you get a group right, you should meet them all, but you get a whole bunch of ready-made mentors for you, and it really does help broaden your horizons.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: So what if you've gone past the group stage and you're now looking for your own aircraft?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: Uh well, you can buy your buying your own aircraft needn't be really expensive.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I found a um also on AFORS, uh, there's a fabulous Jodel D9 uh BB, baby?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_05: BB.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_05: BB.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um but it's£4,000 all-near offer.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and okay, it's a single-seater, VW-powered open cockpit, but as a way to start flying and be the master of your own destiny, you turn up, the aeroplane is there anytime you want.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_05: Um that you it's you'd struggle to get a lower cost way into that.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, okay, you do have it brings with it hangarage and insurance.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but a small aeroplane like that will probably slot into a tiny space.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: I've seen a couple of um over over the last few months, seen a couple of MW aircraft, the microlites.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you can buy those for like almost almost nothing.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_05: I know there was someone at someone at the rally um who I know went to look for an MW6, and I'm sure I think he bought it, and I th I I'm sure he said it was only 500 quid.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_05: I mean there are some there are some bargain aircraft around.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_05: There are some there's some two seat microlites around for not much more money.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there was also jab I saw a Jabaroo, uh perfectly nice two seat modern aeroplane.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there was one of those, a Jabberil Jabro UL 430, 18K.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_05: It's not it's not big money.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_04: It wouldn't be the 18K I'd choose to spend, to be perfectly honest with you.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_04: But it suits some people and works for some people.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, actually, after looking through A4s, as we all do, flick flick through it, I came across a RANS S6.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Very nice aeroplane.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, well serviced, really looked well looked after, and 10 grand.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's very tempting, that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_05: This is a two-seater, isn't it?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_05: The coyote.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: And nice looking airplane, nicely finished.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: So now I I'm going to try and persuade people that there's a different way into flying in a lower cost way and a way that will improve your flying.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm only saying that because it's the way I got into flying, so clearly, you know, that's that's what I think is a good idea.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's gliding.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um I looked up the the local gliding club here just to kind of find out, get some prices.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_04: Annual membership,£432.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: Winch launch,£11.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_04: Instruction comes for free.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and the cost per hour, if you're flying a two-seater, so training is just under£30 quid,£29.40.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_04: A single seater,£25.80.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's that's a kind of you can get an aero tow, as in being towed up by an aircraft for between I think it's like£16 and£30, depending on which altitude you go to.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: So it really doesn't cost a lot.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: You are replacing, if you like, time for money, because you know, gliding clubs need you to be there in order to get ready and to launch the aircraft and all the rest of it.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: And you may well be given jobs and stuff like that.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_04: But over the time you learn to glide, you kind of become seasoned by absorbing all of the stuff that's going on as well.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a really low-cost way in the time in terms of cash to go and get airborne.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_04: And nothing beats a winch launch on a on a day.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, oh my word, what's going on?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_04: But no, I can highly recommend uh gliding as a way in for people who are who are looking to learn to fly for not very much cost.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_05: Have you got uh tips uh for low-cost flying?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_05: We'd love to hear from you.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_05: Uh stick them in the comments if you have, because I think it's it's important for people to know that actually there are options.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: There are other options available, whether it's microlighting or gliding or even parametering or parasending and those other kinds of which are even lower cost and and less regulated in many ways.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um so you you kind of just need to find a way in really that suits the amount of time you've got and the amount of money you've got.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_04: Only nine days left until the price of becoming a member of the Flyer Club goes up.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_04: It won't be going up a huge amount, but it will be going up.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_04: So if you want to protect yourself against that for the next year, sign up and join before the 12th of September, before midnight on the 12th of September.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_04: You will get your free landings, you'll get access to everything we produce, you'll get full access to the website, the forums, and everything else.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_04: Plus, you'll get your monthly webinar.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: And this month's coming up on next Tuesday, so Tuesday the ninth is Dr.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: Frank Vuten, who'll be giving us five lifestyle changes that we can make to help us keep flying a bit longer.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_04: So I look forward to that.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, plus, there's a whole library of them in the background that you can go and look at at any time.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_04: 24 hours a day, we're open.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_05: Plus, don't forget you'll get free landings this month of September.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_05: You can land for free at Beckles, Blackbush, Doorknock, Kingsmirror, and Kitty Hawk, where there's 50% off your landing there.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: So Just join flyer.co.uk forward slash membership.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: You know it makes sense.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: So let's have a bit of an update on new videos that you can go and watch.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: What have we got?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_05: Uh well, obviously, big video from the LAA rally.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_05: You wouldn't believe that we had so much stuff to see, but we really did.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we thought it'd last about a four or five minute video.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_05: I think it turned out to be 13.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: There's a little interview I did with James Harland uh of the We Have Ways uh podcast.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: He does with Al Murray.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's particularly relevant this month because the We Have Ways uh festival is on.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_04: So that's coming up over the next couple of weeks.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: There's a chat I had with Philippe Polman from Echelon Air at Oshkosh all about the meaning of life and aviation.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_04: Uh there's also been Skyleader 400 and uh their 50th birthday at Pobham.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: And hopefully there'll be a couple of other, well, there are a couple of others in the pipeline, so we'll get those nailed as soon as we possibly can.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_05: So obviously the big question of the week is what caught your eye?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_05: And I think, Ian, you're going first, aren't you?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: Believe it or not, it was a flying car.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: A flying car.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_04: Another flying car.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: This one's been around a while.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's called the Aleph, um, and it's under under development.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you can see on the screen it looks uh looks kind of strange um and funky, but they've just got permission to start some FAA trials.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_04: They've had huge amounts of money put into it, and it's it's uh it it it's kind of intense to drive along, and then you can get you don't need any verteballs or anything else because it'll it will just land on the road again, according to some of the promotional videos.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's got something like$850 million worth of pre-orders.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: You can go on their website now and you can order one yourself of the Alpha model.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I think there's like um, I think there's the the initial price just to kind of register your place is something like 500 bucks.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: And then if you want a kind of like slightly better position in the queue, it's$1,500.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_04: So they appear to have$850 million worth of$500 or$1,500, which is an awful lot of people.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it kind of struck my it kind of caught my eye because the the kind of whole flying car thing seems to have been a fascination since since the since the very early days.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: I was kind of looking to see see when it when it goes back to and even even as far as 1901, believe it or not.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_05: How could there be that was like two years before the Wright brothers, wasn't it?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it it was two years before the Wright Brothers, and and the consensus amongst historians is that uh this is a guy called Gustav Whitehead that uh his his number 21, as it were, didn't achieve sustained self-powered flight, which is why we're celebrating the Wright brothers as opposed to Gustav, I guess.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um there was an autoplane in 1917.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_04: There was a guy called Konstantinos Vlashos who built a trifubian vehicle with a circular wing that was being demoed and it caught fire and and badly injured him, so that didn't really make it.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: There were some autogres and all sorts of other things, you know.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right up to the there's a long history of flying cars, up to and including things like the Terrafugia, which you remember take taking, you know, had a big stand at Oshkosh.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_04: Oskosh, yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um now owned by Geely, who owned Volvo, I believe.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: If people have been trying to crack this particular nut since 1901 or or whatever you believe, you kind of think you go, well, it's either really hard to crack or impossible to crack, or there's not actually that much really it's it's a nut no one wants to crack.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_05: No one wants what's inside the nut once they've cracked it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_05: Even though it's a perennial question, isn't it?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_05: People go, where's my flying car?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's there's some serious people put some serious money into this project, and I'm pretty sure that all of those serious people are cleverer than I am and richer than I am.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so I just I just keep looking at stuff like that and go, what is it that I'm missing?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: Why am I not seeing this?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: Why haven't I sold my house and invested in this?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_04: In flying cars.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_04: They are starting flight testing pretty soon.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um and they're it they're talking about certification and sales in 2025, which seems a little bit ambitious given that it's um September.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_05: I think that might be the most ambitious certification deadline we've ever heard in the history of certification deadlines.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: But isn't the problem with a flying car is that it yet you end up with a with something which isn't a very good aeroplane and isn't it?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_05: This is one of those things where the more you talk about it, the more my brain goes I'm overwhelmed with implausibility.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I you know, if this was an interview for their head of marketing, then they would definitely not give me the job.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's that that company in in Holland at uh Netherlands that's been developing the PAL V?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: The PAL V, that's right.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that's uh they've ended up with basically auto gyro, which is uh a re a reasonable compromise, if you like, but it's still not a very good car on the road because you've got all this apparatus stuck to the roof, which makes the weight of the car quite high, which doesn't give it great handling on the road.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh well, it's me next.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and I went for something that's so enormous it's difficult for it not to catch your eye.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, it's this, it's the uh it's a DC-3 on amphibious floats.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, you're hearing that right, amphibious floats.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it's a recreation of a World War II uh US Army Air Corps project.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_05: Uh uh and it was put together by a guy called uh Richard Folsom.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_05: Uh he acquired a DC-3 and some enormous Edo 28,000 floats.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_05: Uh essentially they're scaled-up floats that you would normally see on a Cessna 185, but actually the floats are probably bigger than a Cessna 185.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_05: Um, Folsom was the founder of Folsom's Air Service in Grenville, uh, uh a major seaplane operation on Moorhead Lake.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, they have a fantastic uh international seaplane fly in there every September.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_05: It's just coming up now.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_05: And this is, I happen to see a post by uh Dave Hirschman.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_05: He's there, he's uh AOP US guy, and he's there, and they're-I think they're hoping to see this monster fly.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it took four years uh for uh for Richard to make this dream of DC three on floats work, uh, because once he'd acquired the aeroplane and the floats, you needed all the hardware, and that was a big thing.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_05: But they got it flying in 1990.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_05: Uh they flew it for 10 years, went to a whole bunch of air shows, uh, and then it stopped flying in 2004.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and then the family, it's only until recently the family went, hey, you know, we've got all this stuff lying around, let's make it happen again.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so the DC three on floats is a thing.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's a massive thing, too.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's 20,000 pounds empty weight.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: Um, unfortunately, when you put floats that big on a DC three, it doesn't go very fast.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it's only cruise speed is 150 knots.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but they reckon it's going to be the star of the international seaplane uh flying uh uh on Moorhead Lake this weekend.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um so uh that is a little more useful load is.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_05: No.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: But it's not very much, but it's not as anywhere near DC three's useful load.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_05: No, no, and it's this particular DC three is um it's what they call it, I think it's a UC-53, which is one of the airliner variants, um, which has a slightly lighter airframe and lighter engine.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_05: So it was a good good starting point for a Clane DC three, you know, when you have that idea.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but yeah, no, I think that I the the floats, floats are monsters.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um that's gonna be a big it's a big addition to a DC3.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_05: The good news is when you're taxiing round, it's so enormous you can't crash into stuff because it just goes over the top of everything.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: So well I saw something completely different.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: I I saw that an old chum of uh Flyer, Paul Dye, is starting a new column, if you like, for uh avbrief.com.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's uh that's the uh US rival tough flyer, Topco.uk.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, they uh Paul is an old friend, he wrote uh our flight test of the Subsonics jet and then later went on to build one of his own.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I I've always hankered after a little subsonics jet.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_05: You know, people people laugh at them because they are so tiny and impractical, but where else can you go?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I'm gonna get a kit plane in a box, kit plane jet in a box and build it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, yep.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it I mean it's not cheap.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think you can go and buy one of those.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_05: Not anymore.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_05: But it was at one point.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but work out quite so well.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_05: To be fair to sub to Sonyx, they m they've made a guaranteed if you buy the kit, you will get flying.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_05: So um interestingly, when we ran the flight test about the Subsonics Bank in 2016, I spoke to Francis Donaldson and said, uh, who was then the chief technical officer of uh of LAA and said, could we have this here?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_05: And he said, you know, I would love this.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so if you've got a favourite of all those picks, tell us in the comments.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, events, what's coming up?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: There's the ordinary flying from Friday through to Sunday.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: Over in France, Blah, there's the Micro Lite flying.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's uh Kitty Hawk flying at uh down near Lewis this weekend.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's always a good one.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um at Glenforza, the Mole Tail Dragger flying.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: The at Bobbin, the Cornwall LAA Strut flying.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's a busy weekend, there's one coming up.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: Some are flying, it's a bit late.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: Some are flying at North Coast.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Things happen different up there.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: And uh all the way up in uh Buccane, Buckon, alongside Airfield, uh, there's a flying and open day there as well.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: And also uh there's A Open Members Day at Old Warden on Saturday, which I'm flying along to, hopefully, if the weather's suitable.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_05: Hope you enjoyed this week's flyer show.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_05: And don't forget, if you want to send us your videos to help introduce the show, then uh there's more information in the uh video description.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: And don't forget, please like, comment, and subscribe.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Fly safely.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_05: Bye.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_05: Bye.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_04: Three, two, one.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_05: What are we saying?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the flyer show.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_05: Is that all?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_04: Two, one, okay.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to the flyer show.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_04: To the flyer show.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Join the Flyer Club today and save hundreds of pounds with your free landing vouchers.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Watch insightful monthly webinars from our group of aviation experts and access all the online content on flyer.co.uk.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: From just five pounds per month, you can meet new people, fly more, and become a better pilot.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Join today at flyer.co.uk slash membership.