Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / Magic Lessons Read-Along: Book Recap, the OG Owens Women, & the Origin of the Love Curse
Transcript
- Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books, one trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantasy theorist. Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy. Rachel: And today we are discussing magic lessons by Alice Hoffman. This is the third episode in our read-along coverage of the entire Practical Magic series as we prepare for the movie sequel, Practical Magic 2, which comes out in theaters on September 11th. Each week, we are covering a single book in the series in release order. Kate: Next week, we're briefly interrupting our coverage of the Practical Magic series to welcome LJ Claren, author of the Selvaren series on the podcast. We just completed our deep dive of book one, The Silversmith, so this will be our opportunity to ask all of our most pressing questions before the release of the incendiary on September 8th. And that also means you'll have an extra week to complete the book of magic before our final episode of the Alice Hoffman series on September 8th. Rachel: This series is intended to be a fun book club style discussion. So pour yourself a midnight margarita and enjoy. Kate: And to get the full immersive experience, you can follow us on social media where we'll be posting different prompts and interactive elements throughout the series. We always love chatting with you, so let's build our coven practical magic season. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube at Deep Trope Podcast. Rachel: So let's dive into magic lessons. Before we get into the spoiler filled portion of the episode, why don't we give a brief initial reaction for anyone who just wants to know whether or not they should read it? So Kate, what did you think? Kate: I really liked this book. I mean, so far I've been a big fan of this entire series. It's been just so much fun to read and a nice kind of departure from what we have been doing, the more traditional romantasy series. So I've been just loving it. And this one is no exception. I really it made me very excited to read the last one, too, because Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: this one was so satisfying. We got So much of the background for a lot of what happens in the first two books that we read, right? So we're seeing like all these things that we got like little snippets of in the other books. We're getting like the original background story. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that was so satisfying. We're seeing the OG, Owens women building like the foundation of what we see play out in future generations. So I loved that because, you know, we're we're kind of learning that maybe. the the Owens women that we've met already didn't have all the information. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So so that was fun to see like what was the truth, what actually happened in the beginning. and Rachel: Right. Kate: yeah, just just I'm so excited for this next one and kind of getting that full rounded picture of okay, now we have the the first Owens women. Let's catch up with the the latest Owens women and see how this kind Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: of finally plays out. What about you? Rachel: I agree. I mean, this gave me everything that I love about the romantasy books that we read. I mean, obviously, minus the Shadow Daddies, although Samuel Dias can get it. Kate: one hundred percent he can. Rachel: but it gave us like those Easter eggs that we see throughout the series leading up to this point. And it's kind of that aha moment over and over and over again throughout this entire book. There's a lot of discussion within the fandom of what order you should read these books in. And Alice Hoffman herself has said. It doesn't matter. You can read them in any order, which, you know, that's definitely the case. You could pick up this book without having read any of the others and it would still be an enjoyable read. But for the type of reader that I am and that I think you are too, having that foundation and seeing those little hints and clues that we get throughout history and where they all came from was just like a huge payoff for me. Kate: yeah. Well, and I also I I liked reading it in this order personally because Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I know a lot of people end up reading it chronologically, which again, totally valid. Again, the the Alice Hoffman herself has said, that's fine, go ahead. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: But I I liked the way that we kind of like got some hints about Rachel: Yes. Kate: the origins. I like that, you know, we are seeing these different generations, but without it it was fun to read the first two. without having all of this information. Like I said, it's really satisfying to have learned it now and to know Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: the truth of of how this all started. But I I kind of liked that we didn't have all of the information when we read the the other ones. So I I think I'm a fan of reading it in release order. Rachel: At least for the first time, I think on a reread chronologically could be very interesting as well. And maybe it would give us a different perspective that you're not getting in this order. Kate: That's true. That's true. So next time, maybe next year. I I feel like I might end Rachel: Right. Maybe next year. Kate: up reading these every year now, Rachel: And also, as I've said before, I'm just such a sucker for historical romance. And we got so many great historical details in this one. Like you can tell that Alice Hoffman does her homework. Kate: yeah. Rachel: And she gives us a lot of the context too. Like I did do like a little recap of some of the historical elements at the end, but I didn't spend much time on it because she's giving us a lot of the history in the book. Kate: Yeah. And I I just know how mu how big of a fan you are of Salem and like how much fun you've had visiting there. So I assumed Rachel: Yes. Kate: that you would love this because this is like I feel like this is a lot of the history that they teach you when you tour, you know, all the historical sites in Salem. Rachel: They do, they do. They're a lot of the a lot of the tour lessons came through in magical lessons or magical in magic lessons as well. one other thing that I really loved about this book, when I mentioned the Easter eggs and those kind of pieces that we're seeing threaded throughout the books leading up to this point. It looks like we're getting the setup for the plot of the book of magic, with the book that we see hidden at the end of this book, right? I'm Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rachel: assuming. Like, I don't know why else there would be a book hidden in a wall that she specifically says a future Owens woman would find. Kate: That's a good point. Rachel: So, you know, I'm definitely excited for a potentially a treasure hunt in the Kate: Ha ha. Rachel: next book. Kate: I wonder if the book will like speak to one of the the Owens women and like prompt her to go f yeah, Rachel: like call them like the apple pie. Kate: like yeah, like call out to them and prompt them to go find it. Rachel: That would be interesting. It's also Kate: Ha ha ha. Rachel: crazy that it was like under their fingertips the whole time. Kate: I know. Rachel: But, anyways, let's dive into our recap and analysis, because I'm sure we'll have plenty to spiral over on the next episode when it comes to the Kate: Yes. Rachel: book of magic. But before we do, a quick content warning. This episode will cover magic lessons in detail. So consider this your spoiler warning. If you haven't finished the book yet, consider pausing and coming back once you've finished it. We will also reference practical magic and the rules of magic. So again, consider yourself warned. We're two unfiltered millennials, so maybe toss on your headphones if you're with anyone easily offended. All right, Kate, would you like to start us out with a brief recap of the book? Kate: I would love to. So this story starts in 1664 in Essex County, England, when a woman named Hannah Owens discovers an abandoned baby girl in a field. The baby is wrapped in a blue blanket stitched with the name Maria. A crow, which Maria later names Cadin, settles on the baby's basket, becoming her familiar. It turns out Hannah is a practitioner of quote the nameless art, which is like herbal magic. She had previously survived Matthew Hopkins' witch hunts and is very aware of both the the necessity of her craft and the danger that it brings her. She teaches Maria herbal magic along with how to read and write, which in itself is grounds to accuse a woman of witchcraft in this time. Hannah knows that Maria is not a normal child, but rather a bloodlined witch, as indicated by her star shaped birthmark, black burning blood. And the silver that turns black in her hand. At age 10, Hannah gives Maria her own grimoire with two main rules: do as you will, but harm no one, and what you give will be returned to you threefold. Hannah continues to add spells and remedies to this grimoire over the years, preparing for a time when Maria will be on her own. One day, a battered woman named Rebecca shows up at their house, fleeing her husband Thomas Lockland. After Hannah helps Rebecca break the love potion binding her to Lockland, he and his brothers burn Hannah's cottage to the ground with her inside. As a final symbolic act of defiance against her attackers, the poisonous plants Hannah kept in her garden create noxious fumes that sickened the men who set the fire in the first place. Unfortunately, none of them died from the poison, but it seems they did suffer. Maria escapes to Rebecca's house, guided by Cadin, and finds out Rebecca is actually her birth mother. Rebecca had sent Maria away for her own safety, knowing that she was the product of an affair and would have faced the wrath of Rebecca's cruel husband. Rebecca teaches Maria advanced magic, including ten different love spells and many lessons on herbs and other useful spells, All of which Maria faithfully records in her grimoire. Maria meets her real father, a man named Robbie, that has remained in love with Rebecca all this time. He turned to crime during the plague years, and it would end up being their downfall. Rebecca brings Maria to a port and tells her she's sending her away once again. She gives Maria a wool cloak and red leather boots and sends her on a boat overseas with one big warning stay away from men for as long as you can. Love is trouble, and trouble is love. Shortly after, Rebecca and Robbie are hanged for horse theft. The Dutch ship captain secretly sells eleven year old Maria into five years of indentured servitude on Curacao. Once on Curaçao, she becomes friends with another servant named Juni and studies Brua, an African-derived form of healing, with Juni's great aunt, Adri. At 15, Maria meets John Hathorne, a Puritan magistrate from Salem. He sweeps her off her feet over five nights, gifts her a sapphire necklace and diamonds, then completely ghosts her. But surprise, Maria is pregnant. Once her servitude ends, Maria frees Juni and books passage north. She gives birth to her daughter Faith and bargains passage on a Jewish trading vessel by curing the captain's son, Samuel Dias, of breakbone fever, aka Dengue. Samuel is open, honest, and the complete opposite of Hathorne. He suspects Maria's sapphire is fake and warns her about Puritans. Hurt that Maria is still hung up on Hathorne, Samuel quickly leaves when they hit Boston. Maria tracks down Hathorne in Salem. He hides Maria and Faith in a cabin in the woods away from town and begins visiting Maria at night, but warns her not to go into town. One day she tracks him down and goes to his home. Where she discovers he's married and has a son. It also turns out the gems were indeed fake, like Samuel said. Maria ends up buying the land surrounding the cabin and works as a healer, becoming more integrated into the community. Faith also gets her own familiar, a wolf pup named Keeper. After seeing Faith out with Maria in town one day, a jealous widow named Martha Chase decides that she wants Faith for herself, having always desired a daughter. She reports Maria for witchcraft, setting off a chain of events that includes a crow hunt organized by Hathorne that gets Cadin killed, and ends with constables arresting Maria while Martha runs off with Faith to New York. Maria is imprisoned in iron cuffs that block her magic, so she's not able to free herself or find Faith. At trial, Maria is convicted using spectral evidence, and they sink her in Leech Lake tied to a weighted chair, but a lake serpent pushes her to the surface. Right before she's hanged, Samuel Dias shows up, plants a magnolia tree in her garden, and swaps the hangman's rope with one weakened by salt. From the gallows, Maria hurls a curse to the crowd. Quote, To any man who ever loves an Owens, let this curse befall you, let your fate lead to disaster, let you be broken in body and soul, and may it be that you never recover. The rope snaps, and Samuel rescues her on horseback. Though faith is nowhere to be found. Maria and Samuel settle on Maiden Lane in Manhattan. Maria spends her days searching for Faith while refusing to admit her love for Samuel because of the curse. Samuel's dying father gives Maria his gold wedding ring, telling her love is always the answer. After his father dies, Samuel proposes, but Maria turns him down and he walks away. Meanwhile, Faith is trapped with Martha for five years in Brooklyn. Martha dyes her hair black and solders iron bracelets onto her wrist to block her magic. Faith sneaks around using magic she remembered from Maria to heal local women. When Martha locks her up, Faith escapes with a peddler named Jack Finney, guided by the smell of apple pie, a trick that another Manhattan witch told Maria to bake as a beacon. Martha chases them, Falls into a marsh and dies while Faith just watches. Finney removes the iron bracelets and Faith reunites with Maria in Manhattan. The experience has left Faith traumatized and she dives into the Book of the Raven, a grimoire of dark, left-handed magic that starts taking a physical toll on her. When she finds a letter showing her deadbeat dad is actually John Hathorne, now running the Salem Witch Trials, she leaves Maria a note and heads to Salem for revenge. Following advice to quote, save a life to win one, Maria cures a minister's daughter and uses a respected physician's influence to deliver a letter to Governor Phips, convincing him to shut down the witch trials. She then makes her way to Salem to find faith. Samuel reads a letter from Maria confessing her love and follows her to Salem. While in Salem, Faith tricks her way into Hathorne's house as a servant. She serves him truth tea and a cursed meal so dark that Keeper abandons her. She reveals who she is to Hathorne but decides not to kill him. Escaping through the fields, farmers shoot Keeper and drag Faith in chains to Leech Lake. Maria finds Faith at the lake and freezes her attackers with a spell. While Samuel dives into the lake to save Faith. He gets tangled in weeds and drowns, but Maria drags him to shore and restarts his heart. Because he died and came back, the curse no longer applies to him. Hooray! Faith loses her magic as a price for using dark magic, but her palm's lifeline resets, meaning she'll live a long, ordinary life. Maria builds a grand house on Magnolia Street with a greenhouse full of medicinal and toxic plants. She adds a third rule to the grimoire fall in love whenever you can. Samuel tends the garden and tells stories to their new baby girl, Hannah Reina Dias Owens. Faith teaches at the Maria Owens School for Girls and also sneaks into Harvard lectures in men's clothes. On a snowy March day, a baby crow lands in Hannah's hand. A new familiar chooses its witch, ensuring the Owens family legacy carries on. Rachel: Amazing. Thank you, Kate. There is so much to unpack in this book. So we have two FMCs, Maria and then Faith, and two villains, John Hathorne and Martha Chase. And from the details around the magic system, the Owens family traditions and historical elements, there's a lot to discuss. So let's start with the magic lessons So in this book, we see the women that made up Maria's Coven throughout her life. From her childhood through infancy and then her travels to the new world, she meets women along the way who become her family, whether or not through blood, and they each teach her their own brand of magic, which makes up the Owens family grimoire, which we've seen throughout the rest of the books in this series. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: So first we have Hannah, Maria's adoptive mother. As you said, she's not a bloodline witch, but she's still knowledgeable in witchcraft and she teaches Maria all she knows. and she also has probably the most valuable power that we see in this book, which is she knows how to read and write. And of course she teaches Maria. This is incredibly rare for women in 1600s England and is just such an incredibly valuable skill. So I love that we see not only Maria learning it and then teaching it to Faith later, and then they start the the school together at the end of the book as well. Kate: I know. I it's always women uplifting other women, right? That's Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: a very, very strong theme in these books, and I love to see it. But like I like you mentioned, it's so rare that in fact it's suspicious, right? When Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: a woman does know how to read and write in this time. Like it's sometimes used as evidence of witchcraft. Like they had had mentioned. It's like, well Just add that to the list of of her crimes is she's too smart, so she must be a witch. Rachel: Right, right. She gives Maria her grimoire and makes it for herself with a dead frog that she found. And she teaches her that a witch's grimoire must be either burned or passed down to a bloodline relative at her death. Then we have Rebecca, Maria's birth mother. So she's red haired, strong willed, beautiful and unruly, something we definitely see in future Owens women. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: And she's also a fool for love. So even though the curse hasn't happened yet, we still see that that people make bad choices when it comes to love with or without a curse. Kate: Yeah, I mean I do think that that kind of informs what the curse becomes, right? Rachel: Mm-hmm. Right. Kate: It's it she's just kind of perpetuating for generations the bad decisions Rachel: Mm. Kate: that she makes in love. Rachel: Exactly, yes. She gifts Maria her red boots, which every witch should have. So that's one of our first little little details that we see carry through to the other books. And Rebecca, like many women in that time period, Cannot read, but she does have a grimoire where she marks her spells and potions using runes. Rebecca taught Maria the 10 love spells that we see throughout the previous books and that become really like critical to the Owens family magic and how they make their living. And it also includes the 10th spell, which is a dark spell that should not be used. At least that's what we learn honestly throughout the entire series, but especially in this book. And this is the one that we saw back. In Practical magic that doomed the girl that worked at the drugstore. And in the same way it cursed Rebecca with her abusive husband. Now, all that being said, we do see its positive effects later in the book when we see Faith use it to help Finney find love. And he and Catherine Durant are really happy together and and sh they feel really lucky that she gave them this gift. So I think it's probably more about the intent of the person using the spell than the person who casts it. Kate: I think you're right about that. I mean, it's mentioned in this book that desire can be easily mistaken for love at first. And when Maria used the tenth love potion on Lockland, thinking that she was in love with him, she realized too late that it was just lust. She wasn't actually in love with him. And I feel like that corrupted the magic. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: then I think that might also impact the result of the spell if just like if it's not based on real love, right? So that could be the same case for the drugstore lady who it seemed that she just like really wanted to fuck that guy and to take him away from, I forget if it was his wife or girlfriend, but like just take him away from from his Rachel: Yes, his wife. Mm-hmm. Kate: wife, right? So like it I don't know. It didn't seem like she was like truly, deeply in love with him. It seemed more like she just really wanted him. So again, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that intent, like you're saying, like could have corrupted how the spell. kind of manifested, because it's not based on real love. And maybe Finney really loved Catherine or, you know, just like more pure of heart. So Rachel: Yes. I will say I was tight butthole that entire scene with Kate: Ha ha Rachel: like little evil Faith Kate: Rachel's clenching. Rachel: with Faith who's like on her dark journey at this point. I was like, do Kate: I know. Rachel: not touch a hair on poor Finney's head. Kate: Well, and it's like why why couldn't we use like the ninth love spell? Why did it have to be the tenth? Rachel: I know, like I think it's supposed to be the sense that I got if you are a responsible practitioner is that you need to approach this in the same way a lot of doctors approach things. We're gonna start with the lowest dose, lowest risk, Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: and we're gonna, you know, step up as needed. Kate: Yeah, yeah. Now let's just go right into the deep end, risk be damned. Rachel: well, she really did kind of treat him as like a science experiment, which was just not very fair to him. Kate: No, poor Finney. Rachel: That being said, it worked out fine. He and Catherine Durant are happy together. Kate: It did. Rachel: So then we have Adri, who Maria meets in curacao and she teaches her her curacao cures. Aidri practices Brua, a folk magical system blending indigenous, African, diasporic, and Catholic elements. So this is something that exists in real life. And the most important thing that Aidri teaches Maria is the treatment for breakbone fever, which we will see play a very important role throughout the book. then in Massachusetts, there's Mrs. Henry, the owner of the tea shop that Maria works at when she arrives in Boston. Now, I don't think that Mrs. Henry was a witch like any of the characters that we've seen previously. I think she just used different folk remedies with ingredients from the New World. Kate: I think that is something interesting that we've seen a little bit in a few of these books so far is kind of that the the spectrum of witchcraft, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: right? Of like you have the bloodline witches, which are like at the far end of the spectrum. They have the most power. They are, you know, true witches that have some incredible powers. And then you have women like Mrs. Henry, who I would still describe as like a witch in the context of these books that we see, but she doesn't have the like inherent power. I don't know that she's able to do anything that like breaks the laws of physics or something, but sh like you said, she's just like really knowledgeable about different remedies and and things. So but it's still, you know, it I think she's still on the witch spectrum. Rachel: I think she's on the spectrum, but I don't think that she identifies as a witch. I think that she's just like, yeah, these are different Kate: No, probably not. Rachel: cures. And I think that's kind of maybe that is the spectrum, right? Scientist, witch. Either Kate: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rachel: end of the spectrum. And I think that they are on the same spectrum, even though in the last book we saw Franny really struggling with that concept at first. Kate: I know I know she did. But you know, it's it's interesting. And I I love kind of seeing that play out in history because as we know, like witches, bloodline witches like we see in these these books don't actually exist. But the other end of the spectrum 100% did, and they're the ones that were hanged for Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: witchcraft, you know? So I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: think in my mind, those are witches and that is a term of endearment. Rachel: for sure. For sure a term of endearment. Then we have Catherine Durant. This is the woman that Maria meets in Manhattan, who is also a witch, and suggests to her that she place an apple pie in her window every day or every week until Faith comes home, and that's going to lead her home. Now we learn that Catherine Durant is older than she appears, and that the women in her family have longer lifespans than regular humans. And in The Rules of Magic, which takes place in The 1960s, we meet Agnes Durant in Paris, and this is the woman who was friends with Vincent's mother and figures out the loophole to help him fake his death and start a new life outside of the curse. So Kate, I need to know. Are Catherine Durant and Agnes Durant the same person? Kate: I when I was reading it, I had just assumed that she was a relative of Agnes. Because I don't know, like it's it's something that I think is very much up for interpretation. I don't think it's out of the question Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: because they don't say like how long their lifespans actually are. My assumption was not that like it still sounds like they are lifespans, like they're not immortal. So I wasn't necessarily thinking that it would be hundreds of years, but Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I guess it's not out of the realm of possibility. but you know, I was thinking about what we know about Agnes and what she tells Vincent in Paris is she's just like very cagey about like how long Rachel: Mm. Kate: her family has been in Paris. She's just like, We've been here a very long time. You Rachel: Yes. Kate: know, or just a long time, you know, very vague Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: and cagey. So I can't rule it out, but that wasn't my like initial assumption. My my assumption was just that she was a relative. Maybe maybe a more recent relative than you would expect, but Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: not that they were the same person. What about you? Rachel: Well well, she can't have children. Finney says that his wife, Catherine, cannot have children, and that's why they end up adopting this little girl who finds her way to them. So that has my spidey senses tingling that it could be the same person. Kate: That's fair. I mean, we don't learn a anything else about their family of like other relatives and stuff really, right? So like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: we don't know if she had a niece or if she had, you know, other family members that do have children that would, you know, provide a lineage. Rachel: Well, right. And she says women in her family, have a long lifespan. So it implies that there's others. but Kate: Yeah. So Rachel: now it makes me want to go back to practical magic and see if there's a reference to anybody like that there and if we'll get anybody Kate: Yeah. Rachel: like that in the next book. Kate: Yeah, do we do we see another Durant? Does every generation of Owens women come upon a Durant? And is it the same? Is it the same Rachel: Right. Right. Kate: woman that has just been befriending every new generation? Rachel: Right. So those are sort of the teachers that Maria meets along the way that become part of her coven. And then there's the next generation. So first we have Faith, who was the perfect baby and a well-mannered little girl, until she was kidnapped by Martha, and the years of abuse at Martha's hand led her down a path of dark magic and revenge. And Kate, this again. Reminded me of the rules of magic and Dr. Burke Owens study of nature versus nurture. And he believed that you couldn't nurture someone's nature away, but he still tried his best and it ended tragically for their family. Martha clung so tight to faith in her attempts to eliminate her magic. And not only was she not successful, she turned her toward dark magic. If she had just let her practice magic and just live. the way that she wanted to live, she would likely have not done any harm to anybody. That's one of the first rules of magic is, you know, that whatever you put into the world will be returned threefold. And Maria is like very, very strict about that. Like she truly believes that and you she practices that the entire book. But Martha pushes Faith so hard on that she ends up pushing her onto this darker path, realizing all of her worst dreams for her. I mean, fortunately, Faith does get her redemption arc and even gets a second familiar. But I mean, she did some things that are unforgivable, and I personally will never forgive what she did to our poor keeper. Kate: Poor sweet pup. Rachel: Like it wasn't it wasn't directly her fault, but it was her fault. You know what I mean? Kate: Yeah, it was a result of her actions, so Rachel: Yeah. And then finally we have Hannah Reina Dias Owens. And I just love that Samuel and Maria not only had their happily ever after, but they even had a baby together. And I'm curious if this is the daughter that the rest of the Owens descended from. So we know from this book that the grimoire was passed down to Faith, but that doesn't necessarily mean she didn't give it to her niece at the end of her life. Kate: That's true. So I I really don't know who the r remainder of the Owens that we know descended from, but I was just trying to kind of connect some dots through like some shared traits. And we don't Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: really know that much about Hannah, right? But what we know about Faith is that obviously she had a penchant for the dark arts, and that's something that we also saw in Vincent. So Rachel: Yes. Kate: that's a connection that I'm seeing that might lean more towards. Faith being the ancestor of the future Owens that we meet, but you can't can't be sure. At li like most things in these books, it's up for interpretation. Rachel: it is interesting that we get sort of a pair of sisters in each book, right? So we have Franny and Jet, we have Sally and Gillian, and we have Kylie and Antonia, and then here we have Faith and Hannah, and one is sort of like red-haired and a little bit unruly. And then it seems like one has the darker hair and she's You know, just like sweet in many ways, right? Like Jet's kind of sweet, Sally's sweet, Hannah, again, she's just a baby, but she seems pretty sweet. and so I just I do think that's an interesting pattern as well. Kate: Yeah. Yeah, that like every generation of Owens women just creates two personalities. Rachel: Well, it's kind of like the two different sides of the same coin. Kate: But it's never present in the same person. Rachel: Right. Right. Kate: Right. Like it always gets split that way. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. And that's also sort of what has me leaning toward that they descend from Hannah, just because I think it's this idea of like ensuring that relationship between the aunts and the niece, like the aunt passing down the grimoire and having that relationship Kate: Mm. Rachel: with her niece. So it's like connecting the sisters always. But I don't know. I could be over over analyzing this one. Kate: I mean maybe we we still have a whole book left to learn more about the Owens, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: so Maybe Rachel: what the other thing was too. They also say how faith like doesn't really seem to be too interested in men. Kate: Mm, that's true. So Rachel: She's fine dressing like one, but she's not super interested in dating them. Kate: Yeah, so maybe maybe she doesn't end up having daughters of her own. Rachel: Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we'll learn it. Maybe that'll just be a mystery for us. Kate: Yeah. I mean, you know, again, I would not blame a single one of these Owens women if they decided to just quit men altogether and play for the other team, you know? Cause they have not seen they they've really seen so much trauma associated with with men. So, you know, if faith went that way, good for her. Rachel: So that's what we're asking for. Alice Hoffman, here's our request from you. Sometimes we like to ask things of our authors, and we haven't asked anything from you yet, but we've got a request. We'd like a spicy little novella about faith. riding off on her white mare and meeting the love of her life, a lovely lady. We want a spicy little sapphic novella. Kate: would be chef's kiss. Rachel: And we learn she gets her magic back at the end of her life too. So I think that there's definitely I think she definitely left the door open for for another little story here. Just saying. Kate: We can hope, we can dream, and we can ask, you know. Rachel: Mm-hmm. So let's get into the magic that we see in this book. So we see that Maria and Faith both have two very specific powers. So Maria has weather magic, and Faith has healing magic. She can also commune with animals, particularly birds and fish, and she befriends the giant eel in Leech Lake. And we're gonna talk about the eel as well because I love that Leech Lake essentially has its own Loch Ness monster. And even the way that Kate: Right. Rachel: they describe the lore of this monster and how it got there was very reminiscent of the Loch Ness monster, how they're like convinced that there's you know, I think what do they say that the the land flooded and it ended up there somehow? Whereas like the Loch Ness monster, people have drawn like tunnels of how Loch Ness connects to the ocean. This was a spiral back when the internet was new. I spent almost an entire summer researching the Loch Nest monster. Kate: Did you find it? Rachel: Not yet. Kate: Okay. There's still hope though. Rachel: Yeah. but I also love that the lake plays such a big role in this book. After we see the family swimming in it in previous books, we start to see like the real history of this lake with their family. And I mean, obviously it's a dark history, but Kate: yeah. Rachel: yeah. Kate: How many how many women are at the bottom of this lake by the time that the future Owens are swimming in it? Rachel: geez. That's a great question. Well, Kate: Oof. Rachel: there isn't a bottom. Kate: Yeah, so don't worry about it. They're just I don't know, are the women in the chairs, are they just like still falling? They're Rachel: Ha ha Kate: still sinking? man. Rachel: We also have our familiars. So first we have the crow, Cadin, and he is just such a troublemaker. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: and obviously Cadin unfortunately has a tragic end. But I wasn't super surprised. I was waiting for him to have a tragic end most of the book. Kate: I know, me too, especially with, you know, what we had learned in the first two books about crows and, you know, people hunting crows and things like that. I had just Rachel: Mm. Kate: yeah, I was I was with you. I was just waiting for it to happen and still sad when it did though. Rachel: I wasn't really thinking about it from a hunting crows perspective. I was thinking about it of like he is a troublemaker and he is going to get himself into some trouble that is not going to end well. Kate: I see. Yeah, I mean I did I did love what a little pest he was, how he would like drop Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: rocks on Hathorne's house and Rachel: Yes. Kate: like every single day, right? Like he was just relentless. That was amazing. Cause Rachel: Yes. Kate: I love a petty bitch. And Cadin is so petty and I love that. Rachel: yeah, Cadin's a cunt. In the best way. Kate: In the best way. Rachel: Then we have my favorite familiar, the wolf keeper. And honestly, this was the most tragic character in the entire series, in my opinion. He's orphaned, then captured, chained and starved, then pines after faith. for five years, and then once they're finally reunited, she turns to the dark side, and despite his better instincts, he doesn't completely abandon her, and he is murdered for it. Kate: I know. It's so tragic. And I I assume that you also were imagining Keeper looking like your pup Rhys. So I feel like maybe Rachel: Guilty as charged. Kate: I feel like maybe that made it even more tragic for you because you were like, how could they do this to my beautiful pup? Rachel: Yeah, no, Kate: But Rachel: I mean Rhys definitely is more like Cadin, but like, yes. Kate: Rhys is a petty little bitch. Rachel: He is a petty little bitch. There's a reason he's my familiar. Kate: Ha ha. Rachel: But I mean we always talk about like killing dogs is like the worst thing an author can do. Kate: the worst crime in any book. Rachel: Yes, yes. So I mean that was just heartbreaking. And then Faith, she does get her redemption arc and she gets the white mare, Holly, her second familiar. And, you know, of course, being a white mare specifically, it's just such a powerful symbol that she has completed her redemption arc. And then it all starts over again with Hannah's familiar. Baby Hannah gets her baby crow at the end of the book. I know it is cute. Kate: So cute. So cute. Rachel: So while we're speaking about magical animals, we also have to talk about those pesky little Death Watch beetles, which we've seen in every book in this series. And it plays a prominent role in this book as well. And this is the first time that we see that the beetle can be killed if someone's fate changes. Kate: Yes. So at first I was a little bit excited when I saw Samuel kill the Beetle because I was like, yay, like it's possible, you know. But then later Maria realized that, quote, Samuel hadn't stopped the Death Watch Beetle by stepping on it outside of the jail in Salem. Rather, the Beetle's death had foretold that Maria would not hang. So it's it was interesting to me that. This Death Watch Beetle, which again, before we had only seen it as just okay, it's you hear it and somebody's gonna die. Now we're realizing that it can also be kind of this like tell somebody what's gonna happen in a different way, which is that they're going to escape death, right? So apparently, if like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: the Death Watch Beetle shows itself and allows you to like find it and kill it, that might be a sign that you're going to escape death. But Rachel: Yeah. Kate: if you can't find it, right, if you're ripping up the floorboards like we've seen other Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Owens women do, you can't find it, sorry babe, you're not Rachel: Yeah. Kate: gonna escape this one. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it gives it at least more of a reason for existing, other than just like having an awful end of your life where you just know it's coming. Like at least this way it's like, maybe maybe your fate could change. So another magical element, or I guess the opposite of a magical element that we saw in this book is that iron is their kryptonite. And this is something that we saw in the rules of magic as well, when Vincent was in the psychiatric hospital and he was not able to access his magic because there was so much metal in the building. And it played a major role here as well. So it brought about Rebecca's death. It was the thing that allowed her to be killed alongside Robbie. We don't see it happen on page, but it's referenced. Kate: Right, yeah, she is like cuffed in iron shackles and it suppresses Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: her magic enough that she's not really able to do anything to stop the proceeding. Rachel: Right. So it facilitates Maria's capture. It's the thing that makes it possible for them to imprison her and also then attempt to drown her. And it's the core of Faith's abuse at the hands of Martha. when she shackles her essentially by putting those iron cuffs on her. And eventually. Faith's almost drowning as well, when she's also tossed into Leech Lake. So hoping we don't see this happen Kate: Yeah, it's brutal. Rachel: again in the series. Kate: I know, it's so dark, but Rachel: And then finally the apple pie in the window to bring Faith home. Kate: Now this was lovely because you know we love some whimsy. This Rachel: Yes. Yes. Kate: was whimsy and I loved it. I love that their beacon to find each other is something so wholesome and wonderful. Like apple pie Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: is just Rachel: Yes. We had to we had to Kate: Beautiful. It's mm. Rachel: end our list of magic on a whimsy note, because you agree, we always love whimsy. Kate: Yeah. No, this was this was lovely because I mean I love one of my favorite things to bake. And I'm not like a big baker, but one of my favorite things is an apple pie. It's Rachel: Hm. Kate: just so it's so simple, so good, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: and it smells delicious. So I c I could definitely Rachel: Smells so good. Kate: be lured somewhere by the smell of apple pie, you know. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Yes. Smells like home to me. That song is playing in my head. Kate: haha Rachel: All right. Time to talk about the love curse. So obviously, we see the whole thing in this book. We know the curse now. And again, we've spoken about how both Rebecca and Hannah have terrible experiences with love. Pre-curse. So I think that this was intentional to show that no matter what, love is always a risk. Now, Maria casting the love curse when Samuel Dias literally just showed up to proclaim his love in the most epic way and save her is such a wild move. Like I understand that she doesn't want to call down the rules of threes against herself, but at this point, she is literally about to hang and she Doesn't seem to care. That's why she's doing like such a crazy curse. I I don't know, it just seems crazy to me that she would call down this curse about upon herself and all future generations. Kate: Yeah, I mean, of all the things that we've seen kind of as a a through line from these origins to what we see in, you know, the later books, this is obviously the the one that has the biggest impact. It's brutal. Rachel: Right. Kate: And yeah, I don't really I don't know. I mean, I guess who can say what kind of mindset any one of us would be in if we were about to be hanged at the gallows. But so you know, I can I can give her a little bit of grace for the fact that Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: she was under immediate and and imminent duress, right? But Rachel: Right. Kate: still, like you said, it didn't seem like she was freaking out that much about like her situation. clearly She was having some big feelings and she let those big feelings come out in the most harmful way that Rachel: Yeah. Kate: I mean the implications of this curse are humongous. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. That being said, right, right. Kate: She's killed so many people. Like Rachel: yeah, I know. She ended up being like a way worse murderer than she probably realized. Like sh she's done Kate: I know, I know. Rachel: she only did good throughout this whole book. But only did bad throughout the rest of the book. Kate: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And yet somehow her yeah. Rachel: Or series, rest of the series. Kate: But somehow her presence like still brings comfort to the Owens women, right? Like her portrait on the wall, in Practical Magic was comforting, you know, it like brought some peace to the house. And I'm like, ladies, this woman is the reason that you Rachel: Right. Kate: are kind of fucked. But Whatever, you know. Rachel: But also the reason that they have that beautiful home and she intentionally builds Kate: Okay. Rachel: that beautiful home for them and and creates the estate so that it's only passed down throughout the family and they're not able to sell it. Kate: Yeah. Which is great, you know, generational wealth or whatever, thank you. But also generational murder curse. No thank you. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. That being said, Murder Curse didn't actually impact her in the end because Kate: How convenient though that she found a loophole. She found a loophole Rachel: They found a loophole. Kate: right away and she didn't fucking tell anybody. Rachel: Right, right. Why didn't she put that in the grimoire? Kate: Why wasn't she like, hey guys, sorry about that. I fucked up, my bad, but here's how you fix it. Rachel: Right. Ugh. Well, I guess maybe the lesson is like Like obviously nobody's going to risk death. Like if they can just not die, that's would be the best case scenario. So I guess she just assumes if they manage to die and come back, you figured it out. That being said, apparently there is a cure for the love curse in the Book of the Raven. So let's talk about the Book of the Raven. here again, like the 10th love spell, we see that something categorized as dark magic isn't necessarily completely evil. It's potentially in the eyes of the spellcaster. The cure is described as having great consequences. So it really needs to be worth the risk to take on the spell, it sounds like. Kate: Yeah. I mean, I feel like the loopholes that they've found also have great risk. Rachel: Right. Kate: Right. If you have to die to come back. I mean, the one thing I will say, with modern medicine, that risk might not be so huge. Right. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So like if they had if the the later Owens women found that loophole, maybe they would have found a been able to find a way to do that. more safely. I don't feel like there's any way to like kill yourself and and plan to come back that is fully without risk. But Rachel: Right. Kate: there's things like there's even a drug called Adenosine that is used for like heart attacks and stuff sometimes that will Rachel: Mm. Kate: basically like stop your electrical activity in the heart for a few seconds to try to restart it at a normal rhythm. So Rachel: Mm. Kate: I don't know. I mean again, modern science, modern medicine. might have been able to find ways to to make that loophole more feasible. So I'm curious what the risks are of Rachel: Right. Kate: the cure, right? Like, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: is the cure as risky as the loophole? Rachel: Right. Yeah, I'm very excited to see what this cure is Kate: Yeah. Rachel: and see if it's worth it or if there's a sacrifice involved what the sacrifice might be. Kate: Right. And is it like a cure cure? Like is it like every Owens woman will have to cure herself from the cure or from the curse? Or is it that like okay, you do it once, you have some great consequence, but then future generations are free from the curse? Rachel: I think it's that. I think it's breaking the curse. Yeah. That's the way I read it. That's Kate: Okay. Okay. So yeah. Rachel: the way I thought that she described it. Kate: So maybe it's just like one generation has to kind of fall on the sword for Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: future generations. Rachel: Yeah. Hopefully it's a really old person that's already had like a really lovely life. Kate: Yeah. That would be nice. We'll see. Rachel: Maybe Catherine Durant. Kate: my god. If she's even able to die. I mean, if she is, if Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Catherine is also Agnes and she's been alive for hundreds of years, Rachel: Yeah. Kate: I don't know. Rachel: Well then we also have the revenge curse. So in the last book, we learn that the Hathornes and the Owens were really tied together. And that they both sort of have like curses on their families. And so we see that Faith curses John Hathorne with the Bramble Bird Pie. Bramble birdbone pie. And it also has an effect on generations to come. I don't really know that we learn much about what the curse was, other than like that his name would be like doomed for generations. Kate: Yeah, I don't I don't know that we got that much detail either, but it does make sense. I mean, we learned in The Rules of Magic that Nathaniel Hawthorne Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: changed his name to try to distance himself from Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: this. So was he distancing himself from the reputation or was he literally trying to distance himself from the curse of that name? Rachel: Right. And if that's the case, just adding a W seems crazy. Like Vincent went Kate: Yeah. Rachel: and faked his own death. Maybe just change your last name entirely. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: All right, so let's talk about those romantic relationships. And starting with John Hathorne. Now, I have a hard time categorizing this as a romantic relationship because this man is a pedophile. I'm gonna just start right there. I'm gonna say it. He's a pedophile. He was in his mid 30s. Kate: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely a predator. Rachel: He is in his mid-30s when he meets 15-year-old Maria. And he took in his wife, Ruth, when she was 14. And we don't know exactly how old she was when they got married, technically, but it doesn't sound like she was much older than that. Kate: Nope. And like don't Rachel: So Kate: don't come at me tell saying, it's a different time. I understand that it was a different time, but children are children. Rachel: Well, it's a pattern. It's a pattern of behavior too. Kate: Mm. Rachel: And I also think that many men were pedophiles back then. Kate: Yes. Rachel: So while his obsession was described in a way that we would typically categorize as insta-love, I'm really not willing to call it that because I don't think that we can call it anything other than statutory rape. Kate: Correct. Rachel: And he gave Maria fake diamonds and a fake sapphire, so he was literally just like a general piece of shit. Kate: Yes. And obviously also abusive. Rachel: Right. So we don't need to spend much time on him. Let's talk about Samuel Dias, who, as we said, can get it. Kate: Yes, please. Rachel: He's hot. He's hot. He's got his cunty little earrings. He's tan, dark haired, and always wears a black leather jacket. And he's essentially a pirate. Kate: It's hot Rachel: It's hot. some tropes. She heals him. He falls first. Kate: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We get that little one horse Rachel: We'll go to the ends Kate: moment. Rachel: Yes, we get the my god, the one horse moment. Ugh will go to the ends of the earth for her. He literally brings her that magnolia tree. That is crazy. Kate: Loved that the way that he describes seeing the Magnolia tree and being like brought to tears by how beautiful it is. And so he just had to bring it to her. Like he had Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: to share this majestic, beautiful thing with the love of his life. And then knowing that like that's the origin of Magnolia Street, just swooning. I'm swooning. Rachel: And he literally keeps bringing them to her. Like he goes and brings her all these exotic trees, but then when they establish their home on Magnolia Street, he keeps bringing more Magnolia trees so they line the whole street. So brings her little treats. We love that. I Kate: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Rachel: wouldn't even call them little treats. They're very complicated to travel that far. Kate: Yeah, especially in that time. Rachel: Ugh yeah, so Samuel Dias we love and then speaking of little treats, he hit the real diamonds in the puppet he made for Faith, which I get that he knew Maria would take care of this doll because he told her to, but hiding diamonds in a literal children's toy seems like a wild. Kate: Right, 'cause yeah, Maria might take care of this doll, but even like a parent's best efforts does not always stop a toy from being Rachel: Right. Kate: like just absolutely thrown into the abyss and never to be found again. Rachel: Right. And then the last little little treat is also he gets her a real sapphire. And that's her sapphire necklace that she always wears and that eventually franny pawns. Kate: Yep. Yep. Rachel: But hopefully we maybe find it again. I'm hoping. Fingers crossed. Kate: I'm hoping so too. Like I said, I hope that it comes back to them. but yeah, I was I was waiting for her to get an actual sapphire. Cause as soon as we learned that the shit that Hathorne gave her was fake, what did they call it? It was like a paste or s like it it was made out of some Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: kind of paste. I was like, okay, well, so clearly that's not the family heirloom that's been passed down. So Rachel: Right. Kate: when is she gonna get her real sapphire? Rachel: Well, and it's interesting too because she sees all of this in the mirror, right? And this kind of goes back to the question of fate and what you can prophecy, what you can change. And she did see her future. She saw a man who gave her diamonds and a sapphire, but she misinterpreted it. Kate: That's right. Rachel: Alright, Kate, I have a little bit of a game for us. A little bit of a game kind of conversation. So we're gonna do a stoplight game with the daddies in this episode. Kate: Let's do it. Rachel: all right, let's start let's start while we're on the topic of Samuel Dias. Why don't we start with our green light? Samuel Dias literally died to stay with his stepdaughter, and he quit his demanding job to stay at home with his baby and all the other things that we listed as well. Green light. Kate: A glaring green light. Bright, luminescent, beautiful green light. Rachel: I would also add Abraham Dias to this list. Kate: think you're right. I would agree with that. He was a little sweetie pie. Rachel: Yes, and he was such a romantic that he literally managed to send his son back from death for Maria. Like he says he saw his dad's in the garden sitting in his chair and he's like, Get back there, she's waiting for you. Kate: Yeah. Get your girl. I loved it. Rachel: And he liked to tell good stories, and he liked an evening port, and that sounds like a really nice life. Kate: Yeah, a lovely like a lovely granddad kind of character. Rachel: Yeah. What do you think, Finney? Green light on Finney? Kate: I would say so. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I mean there's really no like there were there were no issues that I really had with him. I mean I didn't feel as strongly about him as Samuel, obviously, but I think we can still Rachel: Right, right. But I mean Kate: give him a green light. Rachel: yeah, he saved Faith. I think he definitely has the sort of father figure role for her. Like Maria even goes to him to try and find her 'cause she recognizes that he knows Faith better than better than anybody. I mean Kate: I know. And then his relationship with Catherine Rachel: Yeah. Kate: seems very wholesome and happy. Rachel: Yeah. Yellow light. I think Robbie is a yellow light. So he's described very similarly to Vincent. Dark haired, silver-eyed, stunning. women just immediately fall in love with him. He's obviously sort of morally gray. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: stealing, stealing from people to really like make ends meet and a little bit of like a con man. And not the best father figure. That being said, I'm not entirely sure that he was aware of Maria. It doesn't sound like Rebecca made him aware of her existence until they all ran away together. Kate: That's true. Rachel: So, you know, a little bit torn there. but it does say that the two of them were so wrapped up in one another that their relationship didn't have room for another person. So that's like terrible Kate: Mm. Rachel: parenting right there. Kate: Yes. Rachel: and then he sells Maria into indentured servitude to secure her journey to the new world, which again, I feel like this is a yellow. Light decision. What are your thoughts on this decision? Kate: Yeah. So yeah, I mean it's like obviously it's not great. certainly could have been nice if he was able to find a way to get her a passage that did not involve her, you know, basically kidnapped and and Rachel: Right. Kate: sold into to Yeah, indentured servitude is just a brutal existence, right? Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So, especially because what she was still like eleven at that time. Something like that. Yeah. So Rachel: She was a child, yeah. Yeah, she was a child. Kate: yeah, so brutal, right? I I don't know, is that maybe like an orange? Is there an orange light? Because I feel like I'm like that that decision, it's like, yes, I know that he was. thinking like that was the only option that he had to get her, you know, this this passage to this place that they thought that she would be safer, whatever. But unless he was getting some kind of information from Rebecca, like through her site, that was saying like, no, she'll be okay. Like she'll get through this. If he d if he had that kind of reassurance, maybe I could understand it more. But if he had no idea whether she would be safe or not, and he just like sells his child and puts her on a boat and then is like, it's for your safety, that would be Rachel: Right. Kate: that would be kind of red light for me. But but we know that Rebecca has the sight, right? So maybe she assured him that Maria would be fine. Rachel: I mean, we we see this a lot in history. People were desperate to come to the new world and made that decision. I mean, it's kind of the same way that like we all have mortgages. Like we can't afford a house in cash. Gotta figure out a way to do it. Right. And that was really like the best option for a lot of people. That being said, with Robbie, he was literally a robber. I don't understand why he couldn't figure out a way to make enough money. To get her across the ocean. Kate: I know. I know. Especially because Rachel: Yeah. Kate: he was gonna die for his crimes anyway. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: So, you know, why just do like one big heist, get the money, and then you're gonna die anyway. Rachel: Right. Right. Right. I mean, it was not safe for her in England. She needed to leave. And maybe his thought was like Kate: Yeah. Rachel: it would not be safe for her while he was there doing heist as as you put it. All right. And then our red light, obviously John Hathorne. It's worth noting that his poor treatment of faith, combined with the trauma she experienced at Martha's hands, really led her down a dark path that eventually led to her losing her magic. he also treated his other children pretty poorly as well. Like they were all terrified of him. And I think that this was really common with parents back then, especially the Puritans, that you know, the children had to keep their eyes down and not not Like speak in his presence essentially, but Red light. Kate: yeah. And then, you know, the abuse that Maria faced at his hands of him keeping her as his dirty little secret in the, you know, cabin in the woods. You know, he was happy to go and sleep with her at night and then go be his holier than thou Puritan self in town and Rachel: Right. Kate: So just a total piece of shit. I do not have any patience for a hypocrite. Rachel: Right. Kate: Zero patience, and he, like many deeply religious men, is a huge hypocrite. Rachel: Garbage. Absolutely trash. Kate: Garbage. Rachel: Let's touch on the history lessons briefly. This entire book is a history lesson, but I did want to just touch on a few key elements. So, indentured servitude, as I said, this was a very common practice for securing passage to America, where someone would work unpaid for a determined amount of time, typically like three to seven years, once they arrived in the colonies. So they had to kind of work off their debt and then they were free to live their life. Triangular trade. So we mentioned this on last week's episode that the Hathorne family made their wealth primarily from the triangular trade. And so it was very fitting that John Hathorne actually met Maria in Curacao, which was a primary transit hub and like a major slave market. And I think it's worth mentioning that while northern merchants like the Hathornes like to tout their moral superiority for not owning slaves, they still benefited greatly from slavery since they were purchasing their wares from slave owners. So they were essentially outsourcing their slaves to warmer weather regions. It's not that they were actually morally superior. They literally just didn't have the nice weather to grow the crops that they were purchasing and selling. Kate: Right. Again, I will not suffer a hypocrite. Rachel: Ha ha Kate: it's just so frustrating to see things like that of yeah, like you just didn't want to get your hands dirty, but you wanted to have all the benefits of it. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then finally, breakbone fever. This is the historical name for dengue fever, which is spread by mosquitoes, as Maria told us. And so that's what we see that Samuel Dias has, and that the little girl Annike, who Maria cures, and that's how she makes the deal to send the letter that eventually ends the Salem witch trials. so this is a very important. Element of the book because by Maria learning from Adri, the cure, or at least the treatment for it, she's able to save so many people, even beyond Samuel and Annike. She's able to save all these women in Salem. And Tawa Tawa Leaf, which is mentioned in the book, I had to look it up. And this is actually a folk remedy for dengue fever. So this is a real thing. Kate: I love that. Rachel: Mm-hmm. And then I mean, there are just so many historical elements that we could touch on. I could do probably an entire series on the Salem witch trials. But as I said, I think the book did a good job of giving us a lot of the historical details throughout the book. and as always, go to Salem, do the tours. You'll learn so much there. Alright, family lures and traditions. So we loved in this series that we're learning so much that we sort of get clues about throughout the rest of the book, or little elements that we see are sort of passed down through the generations. And we get like the origins in this book. So let's chat through them. Bloodline witches have witches marks. Now I don't think we saw this in the previous books. It's an important element of this book. I don't think we saw it in the previous books, but it does make me want to do a reread to see if there were any odd birthmarks described on any of these women. Kate: Yes, same. I was like, what do you mean that's a identifying trait of a bloodline witch? Like we haven't seen that yet, but maybe Rachel: Right. Kate: we have. Rachel: Yeah. Courage tea came from Hannah originally. The red boots came from Rebecca. At least Maria got hers from Rebecca. So who knows, Rebecca, did she start it? Did other people have them before her? The chocolate tipsy cake was Samuel's mom's recipe. So I know that we've been talking about potentially trying to make a chocolate tipsy cake. Apparently we're gonna need to look into Portuguese cakes for the recipes that we want to try. Spanish and Portuguese cakes. I'm not sure if it's more of a Spanish recipe or a Portuguese recipe. Kate: Yeah, I would love to because they also describe that like one piece of this cake could get you tipsy. So the name really is Rachel: Yes. Kate: very appropriate. because I don't know, like when you think of a like a rum cake or something, I'm like, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I feel like you would have to eat a decent amount of the the average rum cake to feel the effects of the rum, but apparently Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: this one it's soaked. Rachel: Yeah, no, I need to taste it. Kate: You will get drunk if you have more than one piece. Rachel: I need to taste it. As someone who likes to put Bailey's on her ice cream, this is like right up my alley. Kate: This is perfect for you. Yeah. I know what I'm making for your birthday next year. Rachel: The toads. So we talked about all the toads around Magnolia Street. And it's hinted that perhaps they were there because of the grimoire, which is kept in the greenhouse on Magnolia Street, and which we see was made from toadskin. And then Magnolia Street, as we mentioned, the trees came from Samuel and are a token of his love for Maria. The blue stones that line the path to the house. So these blue stones play an important role in practical magic because they're part of the cure for the Jimmy problem. we first see them line the path to Hannah's house, which is in England, but then Maria actually sources them from Leech Lake for her home. So I don't know what these blue stones are, but they exist in both places. And then finally the lilacs at the front door. Maria plants them both at her home in Manhattan as well as in Salem. All right, it's a lot to cover. Again, just like the last book, we probably could have done a multi-episode series on this book. but wanted to focus on what we thought were some of the most important elements. Alice Hoffman really knows how to pack a punch with every sentence. This woman wastes no words Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: and there's just so much to talk about. We could talk about these books forever. Kate: I know. I like I said, I loved how we did get a lot of answers to some of the kind of hints that we had gotten throughout. I mean, the the story that we thought we knew of Maria was like kind of the truth, but also not fully the truth, you know, like so getting all of those extra details was great, but there's still a lot that was left up to our interpretation, you know, as always. I feel like Alice Hoffman is never going to fully give us the Rachel: I know. Kate: exact picture. She's always going to leave things up to the reader's interpretation. So we did get some satisfaction here. We did get some answers and I loved that. But we still have these questions that maybe we'll get some answers in the last book, but maybe we're just never going to know for sure. And we're just going to have to come up with our our own interpretations. But Rachel: Yeah. Kate: it just I'm so excited to catch up to what's basically like present day in this last Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: book, right? Like the the modern Owens women and see how this thing comes full circle. Rachel: I agree. I can't wait to see how this whole thing ends. And it feels like there are some potentially open doors if we want like a little novella or a little side quest. but I feel like we're gonna get everything kind of wrapped up with a neat little bow, at least hopefully. Hopefully, when it comes to the love curse. But I guess we'll see. Yeah. Kate: Fingers crossed. Yeah. Rachel: Well, we hope you enjoyed our discussion of magic lessons. Join us next week for our interview with LJ Claren, author of The Silversmith, and then we'll wrap up our Practical Magic series on September 8th with the Book of Magic, which has recently been re-released as Practical Magic 2. as we've mentioned, the Practical Magic 2 movie is based on that book. So we are going to be fully prepared to go see Practical Magic 2 when it comes out in theaters on September 11th. Kate: And if you enjoyed yourself, please subscribe and share with a friend or ideally all of your friends on social media. One of the biggest ways that you can support this podcast is by writing a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. We're still a new podcast, and reviews go such a long way in helping us to reach a wider audience. Rachel: All right, see you next week. Kate: Bye.