Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / 25th Hour (2002) - Spike Lee | Houselights #182

Transcript

25th Hour (2002) - Spike Lee | Houselights #182 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

• Welcome to the ned Palty. Hello everybody at home, and welcome to House Lights, House of Lee, Spike Lee in particular. Tonight we are talking about two thousand and two's twenty fifth Hour, written by David Binnioff. This was his first writing credit, and many know him as the creator and showrunner of Game of Thrones. And I am your co host, Tristan Riddell, and with me as always is John Mills and Darren Moser. And you know, guys, I just want to say that I absolutely love podcasting with you guys. You know, it just feels like it's all right, right, I fell asleep in the VIP room. What sorry, Sorry. We're a simple podcast, a basic podcast. We don't add audio stingers, Tristan. We keep it pure and simple. One hundred and eighty two episodes in. That was our first audio stinger. There you go, there you go, Uh yeah it was. And actually I know we're about to get to like the real meat and potatoes of the show, but I think that with twenty fifth hour, I want to jump in right away in honor of that stinger and say the three of us, who is Frank, who is Monty? And who is Jacob. Oh, I don't know if we I think we're all too different from that, right or is that a cop out? Is that all? That's a cop out. I'm gonna say, Tristan is Frank, I am Jacob, and you are Monty John hurtful on some level, I would say, if I had to pick, I would say, I'm Jacob, your manty and Tristan his friend. Well, we both had Tristan and Frank there am. No, you're not a Frank. No, you're not a Frank at all, you know what. I The thing is, honestly, if I were to have three people in here, I'd say that I'd be uh Kari Patrise O'Neil's character, the doorman. Tristan, I would say, most likely you're gonna be you know what, I'm gonna say that your agent Cunningham, and Darren is agent Flood. All of the I think that's the solid choice right there. I'd say that's us. We almost lost the friendship right there on that question, but we pivoted to good territory. But no lie, no lie, no lie. Agent Cunningham. I love his voice. I love how like like MANI tries to rattle him and it's just like, okay, yeah, yep, I can't repeat what he said because this is a PG thirteen podcast. That is true. That is true. That's very very true. But okay. So I really wanted to do House of Spike Lee. Like I was a big, you know, proponent of us covering House of Lye because I have missed so many of his movies, and so I wanted to do Ketch Up because I hadn't seen Do the Right Thing. I hadn't seen Malcolm X. But one big reason why I wanted to do House of Lee is because of twenty fifth Hour. I love this movie. I'm just saying it outright. I'm I'm not gonna be coy about it. I Am straight up saying I love this movie. I saw this in the theater, and the next day I went and bought the book and I had the poster. I was just like, yes, this is it. This is great. And then to the point where, like I even followed David Binioff's next screenplay, which was Troy, and that got me super excited, you know, like I just I was. I fell in love with this movie. I didn't even know this movie was a Spike Lee film when I went to go see it. I was just like Ed Norton, Phillips, Seymour, Hoffman, Barry Pepper, you know, seems like a you know, crime noir drama. Let's do it. So, now, you guys, neither of you have seen this before? Correct? True at the statements on both counts. Okay, Darren shaking his head because he's never done a podcast before. So I'm just I'm just pretending like you knew the answer already. But no, this was the first time time watching this, so and I was excited because you were excited. Now, Darren, what did you know about this movie? Like, besides like the poster, you know, like, what did you know about it? Was it? Because you could get a lot from that poster of a guy walking a dog in a tattered gets check. No, this was one where because of the number and like the title, it's one that's kind of easy to almost mistake as another movie because there's a lot of movies out there that are like, you know, twenty four or like on the Hour, Like it has elements of a lot of other titles. So I had to think about it for a moment, like had I heard of this movie? But after you know, some some mental collating. Yeah, no, I yeah, I definitely was not out watching this in two thousand and two, but a full cast, I know, all the actors, you know, it was really fun to revisit like Phillip Seymour Hoffman, you know, Rossaro Dawson, Brian Cox. So yeah, I did not know much except for I think just glancing at the you know, the byline of like you know, in the twenty five hours leading up to going to jail, you know, and I'm like, oh what and then it starts with like barking, and I'm like, what is going on? So yeah, it was definitely an unknown going in Johnny, what did you know? I know that frequently I would get this confused with Clockers because I've never seen either film, and so I was always like, which one is Harvey Harvey Kayitel and which one is Ed Norton because you know, I just didn't really pay close attention to them. And I remember the ad campaign for Clockers, and so I'm like, oh, right, Harvey Kaitel And with twenty fifth Hour, I remember hearing a lot of good press about it at the time, And it was definitely during Ed Norton's career ascendency, like this is that sweet spot for him, right there where he is at the peak of his appeal to both studios and audiences, and it always intrigued me. I always wanted to see it, and I remember also a lot of the heat around it around it at the time having to do with the fact that it dealt with post nine to eleven New York and that like that played a character in the film, so to speak. That like it was very much addressed and it was very much just straight on a cornerstone of the film. But for some reason, I just never got around to it. And it's one of those ones where again, you know, we talk about this all the time, Well, I meant to see it, but it's just been all this time, and so you know, podcast Homer comes up. It's like hooray podcasting to the Rescue again, and I get to see the film. So there you go. Speaking of the post nine to eleven ordeal, this was very purposeful on Lee's part. He very much wanted to integrate New York as it currently like was, I should say, like at that moment, as it currently is into the film. Because so many filmmakers and so many studios were shying away from it, you know, like we all remember the Spider Man commercial or the Spider Man trailer that had the twin towers where he like he caught a helicopter in the webs, and they pulled it, you know, due to sensitivity reasons that I can understand. I'm not criticizing them whatsoever. But Lee had a point that, like moving forward, so many filmmakers just didn't even want to touch it. They were just like, no, let's not remind people of it. And Spike Lee went the completely opposite direction. He's like, no, let's put this into the screenplay. Let's put it into the story. Let's make it a character itself. And because the novel The twenty fifth Hour was I think submitted to the publisher in nineteen ninety nine, it was written in ninety nine, and I can't remember if it was released in two thousand or two thousand and one, but it had nothing to do with nine to eleven, couldn't hadn't happened yet. And so I remember having that conversation with people after they saw the movie where I'm like, oh, yeah, the book had none of that in there, and this this movie, I feel like had such a great service done for it with having Benioff, who wrote the novel, also write the screenplay. And Lee was a huge champion not just for adding in the World Trade Center because he's a New York native and he wanted to, you know, kind of do like a love letter to New York, you know, post nine to eleven. But he also was a champion for Bennioff's original concepts, where like, I think in the first first couple of drafts of the screenplay, it didn't have a lot of what the novel had, Like it was kind of like a slim, down streamline version. He's like, no, no, no, no, Like you're missing this part, You're missing that part. Like add that in, add that in, like bulk it up, and so like he wanted more of the novel in there, which I think is sometimes rare because filmmakers don't like being tied down to a novel. They just like being inspired by novel. And so what did you guys, you know, Darren, what did you think about how it presented the World Trade Center? Now, I liked it. I mean you could instantly tell what the spotlights at the beginning of It's like, oh, that's the Mormo, that's the Tribute lights. I mean, granted, like I would have to teach my kids what that is, because they're not going to know natively what that is. But I and you know, you have the character whose apartment is overlooking ground zero like sees it right out, which I felt that was probably the best shot of being established as a just after nine to eleven type of film. I'm really glad he did, because it's kind of this time capsule, like at the time of this recording, we are decades from this event, and it's kind of hard to remember that, you know, that wound that existed there in that city as they're rebuilding as there you know, and I mean you'd mentioned Spider Man, and it made me think of, you know, the you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us. Like that was kind of going the other direction of like, let's put some you know ruhaha, of you know, New York let, which isn't bad, but this was a more adult take, a more serious take of you know, yeah, people talk about it, it just happened. It's in casual conversation. It's a fact of life. It's not a you know, but it doesn't come up unnaturally. It's not like there, you know, name dropping it for no reason. So it feels real. It feels like, oh yeah, this this happened. And so I'm I'm glad. I mean, I didn't know that that's how it was going to start off, but I'm glad it did. And like you said that, he leaned into that. I don't know if i'd personally go as far as to say is like, that's a character of the movie. But I think that being true to the time that it came out, which I will say is good. I think the moment where it crosses over and becomes a character of the movie is the apartment discussion between Frank and Jake when they're sitting there there, and I think it's used very effectively in that scene to illustrate how different they are as characters, because Jake is the one that's like, oh my god, you can't really live here, and that the EPO, you know, this seems really terrible and why would you want to be here? And then you have Barry Peppers. Frank say, bin Laden could knock down the building next door and I wouldn't care what I paid for this place. I'm not going, And that is a very real New York City sort of mindset of, Hey, I survived it, I'm not giving up my spot. This is where I live now, and this is not where I'm going to go, because I remember specifically and this was not a similar situation at all, because my friend was nothing like Frank but having the discussion with a friend of mine because as he could see, you know, the spotlights and everything. I was like, how weird is that? Like living there? Do you ever think about going? And he's like, where am I going to go? Everybody's thinking about it, Like why would I leave? It just makes sense to stay where I am unless I can't. The one thing about that conversation as well that I like that I think has aged particularly well is they address, you know, that the line, well, somebody's lying because oh, besides, it's safe to live here, and then the other person saying it can't possibly be safe to live here? What are you talking about? And then it's just resolving with you know, neither one of us is really going to budge on this one, so well, somebody's lying, and I'm like, that's a very real friend's discussion of like, you know, what nothing good comes to this conversation, so let's just understand that we don't agree. I like that you pointed out that this was a really great way. This scene was a great way of showing the disparity between the two characters. And even though you know, when you're friends with someone, you can often have a lot and sometimes you don't, like your personalities are radically different, and this is the case with Jake and Frank, Like they are two very very different people, but you can tell that they have history. And I love that that was a one shot. It was a won or it was one uninterrupted scene of them just talking and having this conversation in front of the window, and you know, Jake's making jokes about how you know, it'd be funny if he could take Doyle, and Frank's like, you're an idiot, and he's like, hey, I'm just saying it's it would be cool. You know. It's just things like that. It's just I feel like one thing that this movie does really well, and something that the book did really well, is that it showcased the characters that developed the characters in a very short amount of time. And this was like a matter of hours just a matter of hours, maybe twenty four hours, close to twenty five ish. It was I one thing that I I know noticed throughout the film and not just you know, the world Trade tren and stuff, not the Twin Towers or the or you know, like how it's a love letter to New York and everything like that, was just how remarkably different this was when you compare it to Spike Lee's previous filmography, John, did you did you notice that am I alone in that? Do you see Spike Lee in this? Where do so? Basically? Where do you see Spike Lee in this? And where where is it obvious that it's that it's Spike Lee doing something different? You know that? I like that you asked that specifically, because while I was watching the film, like I'd say, for the first forty five minutes or so, I'm sitting there saying, I don't really how is this a Spike Lee movie? Where is he right now? And then it got comfortable with itself. I feel like Lee got comfortable suddenly with leaning into certain things like Ed Norton having the argument with himself in the mirror and having his reflection go on a da tribe about everything he hates about all the different groups in New York City. I'm like, oh, there he is, there he is. And then other certain shots like an a pack when going up the stairs, or I'm sorry walking back to the table and Philip Seymour Hoffman walking back down the stairs. That our second one, our second one in one show Ladies and Gentlemen. But you know, those were the moments where Lee really asserted himself what I find interesting and I actually I'll throw the question back, but like Darren, I'd be curious to know, like, was there an incongruity about Lee bringing in his signature stuff in those moments that was jarring in any way because compared to the rest of the film, there's not really a calling card of Spike Lee in there, and then all of the sudden there's a scene where it's like, oh, okay, there he is. Like it's not integrated, you know, in the way that I would expect somebody who you know, would come to a different sort of genre. Like let's say Christopher Nolan suddenly makes a horror film, Right, I'm gonna expect it to look and feel like a Christopher Nolan movie, whereas this doesn't feel like a Spike Lee movie except for those moments. Well, I mean I was immediately put off by the fact that Agent Cunningham wasn't played by Spike Lee, because we know he loves to put himself in the story right there in the movie. No, I think you know, you hit it on both points though, like it. Yeah, those shots, especially the the you know, the cussing in the mirror scene and the dolly shots like that is his calling card right there. But yeah, it I mean, it's a bit of a of a whiplash because we went from Malcolm X in ninety two to O two. We've done ten years. That's a big jump, you know for a single director. As we're covering them in a way, Yeah, this feels like an early two thousands movie. It looks like it. It has the right kind of lighting, the kind of cameras that were used, Like we all you know, the actors, you know, we got two people from the xpant franchise who were right right there right in early two thousand. But I don't feel like it's not Spike Lee. But it did take those moments, like you said that he kind of like peeked out through the cracks, like it's a well told story. You know, he's always done characters really well. Uh, And I love the constraint of this. It's like that last night. You know, we've heard that story before. We've heard last night before college, last night before summer, you know, last night before going to like we've seen that kind of story told. But like you guys mentioned, he gives it time to breathe on these people because if we don't care about him, if we don't spend a good forty minutes just living with them for a while, we're not going to care at the end. And we'll get to the end because that's a whole nother, you know, bit of a bit of storytelling. One thing that really stuck out to me was the cinematography, and I looked it up and it's a different cinematographer than he'd used before, and it's blaringly obvious, and I think it was a very smart decision. I have no idea if it was because of scheduling or because of X, Y and Z. I have no idea the reason why that Spike Lee chose to go with Rodrigo Prieto. I think that's how you pronounce his name, But it was I think it was a huge service to the film because it's clear that this is a different kind of Spike Lee film and he got a different kind of cinematographer, and I mean Prieto, you know he did listen listen to this. He did Eight Mile, Alexander Broke Back, Mountain, Babbel, Let's see This's Argo, Wolf of Wall Street, Silence, The Irishman, Kills of the Flower Moon Barbie. I mean, he's photographed some amazing looking films well, and I think that also what you find with him and what's interesting about it, because I agree this looks photographed very differently from the previous two Spike Lee movies. Is taking a look at this. There's an indication in his filmography that he listens to his director in terms of, hey, this is what I want. But how do you square that with the idea that this looks different from a Spike Lee movie. Is that something where Lee said, well, so long as I get these sorts of things, shoot it how you want, light it how you want, and I'll make it work. Or is this something where Lee goes to a cinematographer and says, I want to go for something different. Show me what you can do, and I would actually lean toward the idea that Lee is experimenting at this point, because I think of Summer of Sam and actually even he got Game where he starts to broaden his horizons a little bit, and I think that's reflected in here is that this is a director. What I find most interesting about this is usually with a director, you see them start and you see the seeds of how they're gonna go, and that it develops into something you go, there he is or there she is, that's that's the director. I knew they were on the way toward. Whereas with Lee, he has such a signature style to start with, it's later in his career that you start to see him start to try to break it, try to see what he can do to make it look different, to keep it interesting for himself. Yeah, this this definitely felt like a partnership to me. I mean, I mean, Spike Lee is that is the type of control freak that and I mean that in a loving way where he's control of everything that's on screen, but he's also a huge collaborator and so I feel like he you know, if he gets a new cinematography, he's not gonna nail him down and say you know, make it look like my other stuff. He's going to collaborate with Prieto to figure out what kind of look they can achieve to get that style. One thing that's really great is that I was like when I was watching twenty fifth Hours, like it was like, oh, he got a different cinematographer. Clearly he got a different editor too. Not at all. He's stuck with Barry Alexander Brown, which he's worked with a lot over the years with you know, like Malcolm x he got game do the right thing, you know, Summer of Sam and a host of others. But this as someone who spent you know, over a decade and a half primarily as an editor, I absolutely love how this movie was edited. This was subtle when it needed to be, and it snuck in tricks without you even knowinging it. Like, there were several jump cuts in this movie that most people didn't wouldn't even notice, but it's so rare to see a jump cut. Go on, note like they did jump cuts specifically to hide them. You do a jump cut normally to make it apparent you're doing a jump cut. And and one thing that kind of became a motif is that whenever somebody went in for a hug, you got to double you got to double edit. That was That was what I was going to ask you about about how you felt about that, because that definitely jumps out at you. And like I I'm of two minds of that sort of thing, Like I'm so used to it not doing that overall that it it became jarring at first to see those sorts of moments, specifically because I'm so used to being you know, that school of thought of like no, got to keep it like super tight. So you know, what is Lee trying to accomplish by leaving that in, by having that do that double cut? What does Lee accomplish in those moments? I mean, I can make a guess, but like I'm curious, like what you see him trying to say by having the double cuts. I feel like with me personally, again, this is all interpretation. I have no idea, Like, I haven't heard him talk about this. I really should listen to the commentary. I feel like I've been lazy by not listening to the commentary because he did a commentary on his own, and he did a commentary with Ed Norton just saying this out loud. I'm like why the hell haven't I done this? But to me, it feels like there's this moment when Monty is talking with his dad played by the great Brian Cox, who's in his contankerous stage as of this recording, and I'm absolutely loving it. But there's a scene where he's where he's having dinner and and MANI is talking about how he's like, He's like, yeah, man, He's like, people are just coming in putting these ideas in my head. I'm looking around and I'm like, these are my friends. I don't even know these people. He's not talking about, you know, Jake and Frank and Naturelle and everything like that. He's hugging about the drug dealers, the gangsters, the mafia that he's involved in. And so when we see those double cuts, mainly when he goes in for a hug, it's with people that he knows, people that he loves, and so it's all about that human connection that he's leaving behind that on the twenty fifth hour, he's leaving that human connection. So to me, that double cut is kind of emphasizing that because if you notice it, because the first time, I think the first time we see it happens is when he goes in and hugs Jake Phillips, Seymour Hoffman. It's not blatant, it's just kind of like a oh yeah, he kind of rewound for a few frames there, but then as we move along it gets the jump cut. I mean, I'm sorry, the double cut becomes a little bit further and further apart, where we get where we repeat more and more frames, and I think the last double cut that we see becomes a triple cut with Montt saying goodbye to Naturale, and so that entire it's almost like time is clicking by, where like he's trying to hold on to the moment and so we're seeing the moment more than once because he's trying to burn it into his brain because this is this could be the last time it ever happens for him. I like that read. I think I was probably there with it as well, but like I like hearing it back from somebody, and it's it's mainly an action technique, like that kind of rewinding of a few frames is mainly you do with like a punch in the face makes the feel bigger because you see yeah, or an explosion right a car, like when I was in when I was in school that they actually taught us about that. They're just like, yeah, if you want to, if you want to comp like, if you want to, you know, make a moment really big, like you you repeat it by a few frames just so the audience has a chance to catch up. The guy gets thrown through the window and so you know, or or the the building blows up in terminator too, and it's like, Okay, we spent sixty million dollars blowing up this building. We're gonna show a lot of it. I think there was even a Family Guy up in a demolition Man. That's the one I always think of, where they're like, show it it almost blows up the second time because they're like the biggest explosion ever. We're gonna builk it for every frame you know that. Producers like show it again. Yeah, shoot, and then later he's gonna remember it because it was so awesome and we're gonna play it again. Yeah. But what I was starting to say was like there was a Family Guy episode that made fun of that kind of editing where they're rebuilding a house and they're just like, you know what, we can't do this anymore. So they blow it up and they they're jumping from the explosion and it happens literally eleven times from eleven different angles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. It's It's interesting to me though, and I like because we go through this and this era of Spike Lee as a director, I think is very interesting specifically because you have you have him still leaning into social commentary, but there's almost a sense because as he's going through and I don't know if I'm like way off base with this or something like that, but what sits in my brain is the whole thing that we talked about with Malcolm X or he said, well, you know, and we're not saying I'm not saying he was wrong about this where he says a black director should direct Malcolm X because it's unique to you know, my cultural experience. I bring something extra to it. But then he is very squarely outside of that cultural experience with a movie like twenty fifth Hour or Inside Man or movies like that. So is that Lee making a statement that he is sort of like bringing something extra to this story that like by being somebody who's not like a white Irish guy who's going off to prison, but he can still bring in something that's more universal by telling it from the perspective of somebody who isn't that person. I think I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's really a one to one because well, I'm not saying it is. I'm not saying it is. I'm just not. Yeah, I know that, I know that, I really do. But like with Malcolm X, it's so inherently black, where like you need that black perspective because you need that insight into what is going Absolutely yep with twenty fifth Hour, Monty is not inherently Irish American, Like only an Irish American would know what he's going through, and only someone who is you know, has dealt drugs and going to prison. I don't think that is needed as much as it was with a black director from Malcolm X. I think what Spike Lee brought to the table that very much benefited this project is a New York City native. Absolutely. I think being an NYC native and doing a movie like this and inserting post nine to eleven imagery into it, I think if you didn't have a New York City native, it would have had a different feel to it. I think being an American like if I feel like any American could have done it, but an American who also a New Yorker could do it the best. Darren, you mentioned the mirror scene. I want to talk about that. This was like when people think about twenty fifth Hour, they think about the mirror scene. This movie didn't get a lot of good press. Oh then let me let me rephrase, let me rephrase, this movie did well ish Like it was a five million dollar budget. I think it made back either twenty three or thirty three million. Twenty four is yeah, and worldwide, that's still good in terms of budget, Like it's not like you know, Marvel money. I know, I hate saying that out loud. I want to kick my own ass by saying that out loud, but it's you know, it used to be the old axiom was double your budget and you're considered a success. And this more than double budget, but it was still criticized for not bringing in more money. Critics were kind of lukewarm on it. But as you know, we've gone on in age, like we've passed the twenty five year mark of this being out, and it's I feel like it's grown every year, Like I feel like the popularity, and Spike Lee has even commented on it. It's like that this movie has grown in popularity as it's gotten older, and one big reason is that scene. Darren, how did that scene feel to you? Did it feel like kind of like a it's its own microcosm of a movie. Did it feel like its own short film within a larger film, or did you feel like it fit? Give me your feelings on that. Yeah, I mean it's hard because I have a really I mean, the three of us have a unique take in the fact that we are purposely watching Spike Lee movies and it's the most Spikely thing in this movie is that scene. But all that aside, you know, after the initial shock of like, oh, like you said, John, there it is. There's Spike Lee right there. He's talking to himself and he's cussing out all the Burrows. But when you actually that shock kind of subsides and you actually listen to what he's saying and how he's intercutting it and you know, or showing because it's it's weird. It's like it's in you know, Morty's head, But it's also very fourth wall breaking talking right to the audience. You know, but yeah, I enjoyed it. I mean, I could see why it is the most talked about part of the movie. It's the most memorable, it's the most you know. But I don't. It didn't pull me out. It just kind of like flagged it as like a spike Lee. I didn't feel like, oh, now we're talking to the camera, like what are we doing? Because I think I'll give Lee props where he knows where to put stuff like that in. You could say the same thing for the dolly shots like those could take you out. You're like, what are we doing? Are we flying? Now? We're floating down the hallway. It's like but it it's a surreal moment. It's something beyond you know. And because it's film and you can do stuff like that, you can do double cuts and surreal dollies and things like that. So yeah, No, I like the speech. See. I think the mirror scene works well because of one specific thing and the fact that it has Monty, the real Monty quote unquote say back to the mirror at the end. No fu right, because that whole diatribe. You're the one who messed up. Well I messed up, Yes, he messed up, But Also, what I like is it's Lee acknowledging that a lot of these rants that people will go on is a way are a way of deflecting from the real problem and saying, no, you know what the problem is these you know, the people in this borough and the people over here, and these types of people and these sorts of things and manty in that moment, I think this is very key to giving the audience any sort of empathy with him is saying to himself, no, don't, don't don't lean into that's stupid. That's not why you're angry. That's not why you're in trouble. You're in trouble because of you own it. Don't try to slough it off on other people. And the thing is, that's where I think commentary like Lee's and this style is good because that's where I don't get with you going back to do the right thing. We see everybody give their diatribe about stuff, but it doesn't really coalesce the way it does in this scene where Lee is saying, this anger that somebody throws at the other is almost always anger itself, and then they manifest it outward so that they can feel better about themselves and giving Manty that wise moment to say, Noah, actually I don't hate any of those people, and I don't hate any of those things. I'm mad at me, and I'm trying to find a reason to hate everybody else so that I can let myself off the hook. I think that's very, very important. It's as important as opening the film with him saving a dog, because those two scenes really underlying that the change of heart that he's having is not false. It's not an act, it's not something born out of desperation to get out of prison. It's literally a person having a moment where they realize their own flaws. And that that's why the mirrors. I think the mirror scene stands out because of that, because it's very raw, and it's very real, and it ends with somebody having the ability to recognize the source of oseing. I think you would have had a very different interpretation of the scene if he didn't end it that way, if Monty didn't end it with, you know, no pun intended, but some real self reflection. And that was actually in one of the initial drafts of the screenplay, David Benioff didn't include the mirror scene and Lee, you know, is talking to him. It's just like, what the hell, why didn't you put this in here? It's like because it's in the book, it's verbatim, almost verbatim in the book. That way, it like the only thing that that Lee added was the nine to eleven stuff. But he asked Benioff, like, why why didn't you add this in? He said, He's like, well, I you know, I don't. Oh, you know, like I just didn't know how it would be cinematic. And he said He's like literally says, let me worry about making stuff cinematic, right, you put you write it in, I'll make it cinematic. And Benioff said, it's like, obviously Edward Norton and Spike Lee made it crazy cinematic. And that scene really spoke to me. And I loved everything that you said, John about like how it's all this outward hatred, all this outward excuses, and then all of a sudden it turns inward where it's just like no, no, no. And this could be easily misinterpreted as hate mongering or fear mongering, but this in itself is like a love letter to New York Like New Yorkers are going to watch this and shake their heads and laugh. And even the people who are getting ostracized or made fun of are going to shake their heads and laugh because they realized that, like, these stereotypes exist and some people use them for hatred, but at the same time Lee is showcasing them as stereotypes for hatred but also showing love across the boroughs that like at the end of the movie, like they have this kind of redemption arc where it's just like, this is why we're here, this is why we're all Americans, because we're all different and we all have different proclivities and you know, eccentricities and everything like that. And this was actually one of those things like in the early days of the Internet in two thousand and two, like I actually downloaded this off of Kazah or LimeWire or anything. Later the file finished and you were so happy. Yeah, and I had this, I had this actually memorized, which I don't know what this is about me, I swear I'm not. So you could repeat it whatever you wanted. Yeah, like I could thrown out of parties and then and get kicked out, But no, it was it was one of those things where I just like I just thought it was such a brilliantly written monologue that I wanted to memorize it, like when I was getting into theater and you know, and everything like that, and so I just it was just one of those things where it's not like I actually believe those things are had was filled with hate. I just thought it was so powerful that it was so interested in how it was made and how it was performed. And Ed Norton was my favorite actor of all time at that time, and uh, it was yeah. I just I just remember, like when I was reading the book, I was just like, holy crap, it's it's it's totally in there, like like that's that's verbatim there. Yeah. I like the fact you mentioned that that, you know, the monologue and the theatrical thing, and that's That's also another thing that I think is worth worth approaching is in more recent times, people are in the in the films that I've been encountering, are unwilling to have scenes like this, in the sense that audiences seem to have gone to a place where they they feel that even their abborren care. I mean, remember and Frank calls us out several times in the movie. This guy's success is built on the back of people who had addictions, and you know, everything he has in his life is because he was victimizing a large swath of the population, right, Like, so don't don't romanticize this guy too much. But it's like a you know, honestly, this monologue. Now, I'm not gonna wait into the dangerous territory of saying it's equal to or anything like that, but it's reminiscent. I think of a Mammot type monologue where you have to let the character be bad and abhorrent, otherwise the redemption means nothing or even if you're not going to redeem the character, Okay, the character is terrible, Right, that's the character. Right? Does Frank ever go on a redemption arc? In this Frank is just as big a crook, if not larger a crook than Manty. But he never gets his mirror moment or anything like that. And he has a couple of disgusting monologues as well. So am I gonna fault the you know, Barry Pepper or the film for for doing no, That's who the character is. And so I think it's important to call that out because calling it out as you know, I'll coin this, you know, registered trademark or whatever. It's the mamm at moment, it's Ricky Roma in the bar in Gary Glenn Ross talking to the Jonathan Price character, and if you really break down what he's saying, it's like, h this is not cool. But in that moment, you're like, Oh, I believe this guy. I'm there with him and I know what's happening and what's going on in his brain. Thank you for that moment. So, you know, the highest praise I could possibly give the Mirror moment is that it feels like mammon, you know. Speaking of Barry Pepper, one thing that I really liked about his character is that, like, you have all this bravado throughout the entire film, and then when he's fate with Monty, because he's criticizing Monty in the entire time, talking about how he's screwed up. He's clearly he's either going to go to prison and die, he's gonna kill himself, he's gonna run, you know, it doesn't matter. Like he's you know, like you said, John, like he's built his wealth on the backs of people's addiction. You know, like he's it's just going off and totally off on Monty. But the moment he's confronted with Monty, he becomes no, man, I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna be there when you get out. We're gonna be cool. We'll start a bar together. You know, it's gonna be fine. You know, like it's we all know that person. And on top of that, the moment that he's called to be the bad guy and deliver the punishment, Monty's asking him, treat me the way you feel I deserve to be treated like That's what that scene really is is he's saying, treat me the way I know you feel about me. And this moment in time, we find out that Frank is a paper tiger. He can't do it, he can't commit to it, and so he's able to have these diatribes from a place of safety when there's no repercussion, there's no consequence of his hatred. And I think that's an interesting, you know sort of thing as well. Now you know and he we see I applaud Lee for giving us that moment where he's he's sitting there at the water as Monty's driving off and we get a moment with Frank where we feel like he's having a moment with himself where he's like, oh who am I? Who am I? Really right now? And that's you know, you know, I think Jake gets that too, but from an even more uncomfortable angle. But you know, well, and the dynamic of the three guys is really interesting. And this is just just my perception, but I get the feeling that you know Edward Norton and you know Barry Well, I guess she she's their their their characters, so Mani and Frank, you know where it's it's firmly established that they've known each other since like third grade, like they've been lifelong friends, you know, all of that. I feel like Jacob Phillip Seymour Hoffin's character was friends with Morty and then is like tangentially friends with Frank kind of like how you know, sometimes when you start to merge, this is just a vibe like obviously they the three have hung out together, like they know each other. But I think when it began it was e merging of two friend groups because I never got the sense that like Jacob and friend and Frank would normally hang out if Morty wasn't in the picture, Manty. Sorry. If Monty was not in the picture, they would not cross paths. So that was just an interesting dynamic to see because we all have friendships like that, like different circles that sometimes overlap sometimes, don't you know, when we make them overlap when one of us is going to prison. It's really weird awkward. But I'm trying, I'm trying to remember. It's been a while since I've read the book, but I think I think it was the three of them all went to school together, and it was a very I mean, that might have been in the book, but I personally didn't get that vibe from I'm not saying that. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying that. You know, you could totally get that vibe from it. That's a totally valid interpretation. But one thing that I appreciated is how there's, like in friendship, sometimes there's this echelon of superiority or like a pecking order. Monty is clearly on the top, and he's about to leave, so there's kind of a vacuum in this moment. Yeah, and that like it goes Monty, Frank, and then Jake and we all have that Monty natural Frank, Well, I'm not really, I'm really. I mean, I know three of them. You know, I would say with the three of them, and you know I'll cop to it. I know, I know full well like how the Ven diagrams work in my own life, and I think anybody who says it doesn't work this way is completely full of hot air. But I'd say it's more that, like, you know, if Monty is a circle, then you have the Ven diagram of Frank and Jake coming in and the only place they intersect is Morty. Right. That's why I think that last moment with with Morty and Monty. Sorry god, folks, it's Darren's fault. That last moment where Frank and Uh and Jake are at the waterfront is really interesting, I think because these two guys have to figure out how to relate to each other because Monty is the glue. He's what they have in common. And Darren think, I think you're right. These two guys, I don't think become friends without Monty, So Monty leaving becomes it becomes weird for them. They have to learn how to relate to each other and decide if they're going to relate to each other in the same way now that Monty has gone yeah no. It just is a well done and you know, this movie didn't have to go into that dynamic between the friendships. It could have been siloed and it's like, oh, I got my friend who I grew up with, and I got my friend that I kind of met in college later on, and I got my friend that is dealing drugs. But because he then diagrammed them and move them all together, it's just really fascinating to watch them play out. I mean, I love I love Philip seymore Hoffman in this. It makes me miss him. It makes me miss the movie because I think he has the harder role of acting as as Jacob, because you're playing this not a flat character, but he's you know, he's a square, he's a teacher, he's you know, that's a harder thing to portray than the cool guy in the room and the lead and the cop and that you know, you're playing this in between moment and you're kind of having a little bit of an arc. You know, it's it's it's interesting. I can see why you would take the role because it's an interesting role and I don't know who besides Philip seymour Hoffin could could pull it off in this era. So as we're as we're getting close to the end here, we are getting to two big things about the movie too, Like because this this movie has a climb. This movie has a fantastic climax and a great ending. And the climax is, of course, I need you to make me ugly. And there's so many things going on in this movie because like they tease it, like, you know, like conversation, like when they're in the Blue Light Naturel and Mary are dancing, you know, at the club with DJ Dusk, and you have Barry and Monty Monty you know, like you know, talking in that hallway and he says he's like, I need you to do something for me, and we're all wondering what the hell he's talking about? What is Frank? What does Monty want Frank to do for him? And then we get to that moment. It's it's Lee did such a great job of building this up because it's like the music is top tier in this movie. This is some of the best cinematic music I heard up until that point. Love it so dearly, so dearly, and you know, like they're they're at the they're at the water that the tug bow to everything slow. You know, they get to the arch. You know he ties up Doyle. We find out why he tied up Doyle later on. Everything's quiet, everything's serene, and then boom, extreme close up on Monty. I need you to make me ugly, and then the camera goes steady camp a shaky cam handheld, and the energy is just going. It's just going. And I want to know what you guys thought of that that scene. Did you feel like it was a good build? Do you feel like it was earned? How do you think about the exit? John? What did you think of the execution of that scene. I think the execution of the scene was very good in terms of the build to it. I think that it felt more sudden than probably Lee wanted it to. And I think it's I think it's can you give me twenty seven hours, guys, I can do it twenty seven I can stretch it out. By that, I mean is that he has the discussion in the club and it sort of drops and it's because they're they're juggling so many different storylines, not the least of which is, you know, Hoffman's Jake misinterpreting some things and doing some stuff. It's sort of like yeek, right, all of us are like just glossed over it, like we don't need to talk about that, right. Well, it's an it's an interesting thing in and of itself because I think that we could do like a whole hour just talking about how Jake is the square. But then he's around these two guys where like they give all this energy of like, well, you'd be in such a square four. Like it's a typical sort of thing where it's like you have two guys who are or are full of bluster and talking about, ah, you know, it's no big deal, and then like you do the thing that they say is no big deal, and then you're and then like they're like oh oh no, no, no, no, no, no, you know, like I'm just screwing with you. Man. You shouldn't have done that, right, you know. It's sort of like there's a joke meme going around where like it's the phone call after the Jedi Temple and Palpatine's like, what kids, No, I didn't say do anything to the kids. What are you talking about? Right? But you know, I think that the scene itself works really really well. It makes sense once you take a second and you're like, oh, that's what they were talking about in the club. But I think there are so many different threads that the movie is dealing with that I would have been in favor of maybe in just even a juxtaposition of some different things, or maybe even a flash suddenly of the discussion in the club, to give the audience a little more visual cue that this moment deals specifically with that moment, you know. But all that to say, I think that the way that it was handled in that moment was really was Darren, what are your thoughts on that scene? Yeah? I mean I just want to say sound design, like the way they music and then cut to like nothing but not sound, not even the sound of their fighting, but like the park sound. So you just hear birds and a little bit of street noise and it's so oh surreal, but it's not taking you out of it. It's it's heightening the moment. And then you get the I'm sorry, and you just that's like breaks you because it's like you're seeing through not that he's a bully. Frank's not a bully, but you see through the tough guy and that's the guy behind it who just had to punch his friend, his like best friend, and man, It's like I love it when writers and directors make characters do tough things like and seeing where they come on the other side of that is really interesting. But yeah, the sound design of this was like it should have won something for like best five minutes of sound Design. Completely agree. It jumps out. I think that you know, we're talking about like, you know, Lee messing around a little bit with his style and all of those sorts of things. I think that that sound design moment is probably one of the most mature sound design moments that I of the movies of Lee that I've seen. It's it's incredibly mature, and it really gives the impact. But I think what also and what also works really well and you calling out Frank not being a bully and we see him emotionally affected. I think that even drills down to the core of you see somebody who is friends with someone and you're like, what what gives? Like who are these guys? And I think that you realize in that moment Monty knows. That's who Frank is. That's who Monty is friends with. He knows the rest of it is bluster and bluff and survival. To speak to what the mob boss says, we do what we need to do to survive. If Frank is not that abhorrent character, there's no way he survives in the in the trading floor. He cannot be soft. But Monty knows a deep down that's who he really is, is somebody who's full of human love and motion and doesn't want to be that way. And so in a sense, when we're friends with someone, even when they have those things that make other people uncomfortable or they why are you friends with that guy, you can say, hey, you don't know him like I do. Right, he's he's not so bad. And they'll never get that moment. Nobody outside of those three people will ever get that moment, like like I don't want this, but I kind of in my own internal mind picture like a cut back to them, like meeting in third grade at recess, like, hey, you want to be my friend, and they're like innocent in their children like and then like again, I don't want that. We don't need that inner cut in this scene, but I feel like it's implied that he's like, hey, you want to be my friend, best friends forever, ride or die. Like that's the kind of friendship they have. And this is the truest test to that friendship is this moment under the arch m you know, speaking of you know, everything you guys have said, I agree with. I love this scene dearly, and I love you know, we end, we virtually end on that wide shot of Jacob lifting Manty back up, and you know, we have to imagine what they said to each other. We have to imagine what Monty said. And it was clear that Monty hit Jake just to rile up Frank. Like that was the tipping point for Frank, because Frank kept saying like no, no, no, I'm not going to do this. Let's go get some breakfast. It's okay. But the moment that he went after Jake, Frank unleashed. It's almost like they gave each other permission to do this because they hurt. Because he hurt Jake. And you know, in that moment when we have the wide and the silhouettes, you know, like you imagine that Monty is talking to Jake saying I'm sorry. You know, I only did that just to get Frank to hit me, like I didn't want to hit you and everything like that. I think it's even one sided. I think Jake is straight up saying it's okay, it's okay, it's okay, like he knows, Yeah, he doesn't have to ask for apologies, he's just already forgiving him from the get go. And then we said, the last time these guys are going to see each other, Yeah, I mean yeah, most likely, most likely, and like we see Monte like Robin Frank's back, you know, like telling him it's okay, and it's just it's such a beautiful moment. I want to tell you guys. When I saw this in the theater, I was this was two thousand and two, and so I was sixteen at the time when I saw this in the theater. And I saw this with my buddy Ben, who I've been friends with since two you know, two thousand and two thousand on something like that. And after this scene happened, I started not feeling I was like, oh wow, I started getting woozy and lightheaded, and so I I, you know, I go to Ben and I said, I was like man, I'm sorry, I got I gotta I gotta go to the bathroom. And so I get up and I'm like, the room is spinning. And so I go to the bathroom and I am white as a sheet. I put my hand on the mirror. My head gets hot, and I'm like, what is going on with me? This movie affected me on a physical level. I still to this day have no idea what I was going through. But in that moment when I realized like I was white as a sheet, my head got hot and I had my hand on the mirror, I was like, I'm missing the movie. That all of a sudden, the blood rushed back to my head and I sprinted back to the movie and I felt fine. It was so weird, but it was the most physically visceral reaction I've ever had to a motion picture. Was that scene something connected with me in that moment, Something pushed me over the edge, and I still to this day have no idea what it was. Now, John, I want to know, as we round third here, do you think he turned left? I was going to say that I applaud the film for leaving us wondering at the end, for being the war shark test. It would have been way too easy for this or that to break one way or the other. I am going to say that this is my first time watching, and this is not something I say lightly, and this is not a cop out. But the interpretation I walked away with, and I know I'll have a different interpretation if I ever revisit this film, which I probably will, is that he died in the car ride. Is that the trauma of being hit and his head hitting the pavement and all, and you know, rejecting medical treatment and all of the or anything at all. I think that Monty was dying and he dies in the car ride to prison. I think that's a valid interpretation, valid interpretation. That's not a cop out at all. Darren, what do you think did he turn left? Did he go to prison? Whatever? I don't think he turned I think the kind of person we've been told he is and shown he is is I've taken accountability, and accountability is you go to jail, you've been sentenced, You're like I. I never got a sense that this was someone who was about to run. Like through the entire movie, it was all about owning up to like it. It sucks like this turn in his life is not enjoyable or pleasant, and and he's lamenting the future he's losing. But I think at its core, you know, you know, besides dealing drugs, but like I feel like this character is a straight shooter and he's like or that the specter of however his dad sugarcoats it, like the specter of living in fear for the rest of your life. I think he he he had already made his choice when he had him him that he was gonna go. I think he would have run before the arch if he was gonna run. But I also like your interpretation, John, of you know, even more surreal of he Like even that last shot of us seeing him, I'm trying to remember, now did we see him blink or is he just staring out the window? Is he is he passed already at that point. My interpretation like this, See John, you didn't give a compout. I think it's a very valid reason. Mine is a cop out. It doesn't matter. His story ends not there, sir, No, No, let me finish. His story ends there, whether he runs, whether he dies, whether he goes to prison, it doesn't matter. His story ends there. Like that, That's that's the twenty fifth hour. That's that's the story. So it's I feel like this and big and ambiguity is much more satisfying than say Inception. You know, like because like when Inception ended and the you know, like the top was about to topple over but then it didn't, everybody kind of goes, ah, come on, come on. But with this kind of ending, you're like, okay, okay, you know you you you relish in it. Shots fired? Oh really that was a shot fired. You don't remember us covering Inception one hundred and something episodes ago. I don't, well, I know that we did. Oh I don't remember. Oh, mister, mister, I can't remember a conversation from yesterday. I can't remember something from one hundred and fifty three episodes ago. Who has the better memory, Tristan? Come on, So twenty two Christopher Nold a inception here on House Lights. Everyone should go back and listen to it and see if I bust John's Paul's all right, So before I make Darren go first and give us our rating, where do you see Lance Reddick in this motion picture? John? This is there's there's an obvious answer, and it would be easy to go with this obvious answer. But I have a feeling that your obvious answer is replacing Isaiah Whitlock junior agent Flood, who's also from the Wire, but he was obviously cast for the fact that he could say a certain word a certain way that he did in the Wire, and like Lee leaned into that, it was just like everything, like I just saw like a little dollar sign go up every time he said it, where it's like you want me to say it again? Now? Of the two, which one was the main agent, because that would be Isaiah Whitlock, Okay, Isaiah Whitlock. So I would have said that it would have been a delightful moment to And I actually have a cop out one that nobody would like, which is Tony Siragusa. But I wouldn't replace him because I think he did a good job as Kostya, and given the fact that it's you know, Russian Ukrainian Mob, would have been odd to have Lance Reddick there. So as much as I love what he did with the role, I probably would have replaced Michael Gennett agent Cunningham so that I could have had I would have had two Wire actors playing with each other and it would have been pretty fantastic in my opinion, as much as I love Michael Gennett and his interpretation of Agent Cunningham, that's where I would have put of Lance Reddick. But what I what I thought the easy answer would have been was Uncle Nikolai, like make Lance the mob right, which which would have been so fantastic. And I mean the thing is, I would have been fine with it, like you know, color blind casting like that. That's fine, just put the best actor in there, what cares. But I know that audiences would have been like, wa, see I put I was. I put him as agent, as agent Flood, as the lead agent. But I will say that in a caveat of you have to rewrite the role. And I know that's a bit like like he cannot deliver those same lines. He is giving it the uh say less is more and make them fill in the gaps as they sweat it out under your gaze. That that has to be the lance Reddic we're getting, not the oh look what's here in the in the cushion, Haha, I got you. It's like no, no, no, no, no, like we give it the full lance Retic treatment, not the I know I got you like he knows he got him, he knows he has him, and he's taking him in, but he's doing it the silent cop technique. So I will say that caveat by the way, just as a parenthetical. As we're talking about casting and everything. I had no idea Patrise O'Neill was in this movie, and he is one of my favorite comics of all time, and God rest him. He died back in twenty eleven and it hurt. I loved Patrise O'Neil. He was always hysterically funny to me, and to see him in this film was such a treat from my perspective because like as soon as I saw him, I perked up. I was like, oh, yes, yes, Patersea's in this movie. Like I was so happy to see him again because it's been so many years, and I just wanted to throw that out there that like that was a type of cameo where it's like if you know who he is, that was a great scene because it was like, yes, Patrise O'Neil, I love them. So it's so funny because you see like the some other people come up to Monty and they're like, man, it's just okay. Just keep your head down. You'll be all right. You know, seven years you can do it in your sleep. And Patris O'Neil's just like seven years man, that ain't no joke. Yep, yeah to the pep talk, but yeah, keep your eyes opening, your mouth shut. It's like you got me stressing. Yeah, So, Darren, how what's your star rating for this film? So I'm going to give it a four? It I was at first thinking kind of middle of the road, like a three, but I was almost leaning that way because it felt small. It feels kind of like a like a film festival movie, like not in a small, grandiose way, but like and the more I thought about, the more I realized it wasn't small. It was simple. It was simply telling this last day of this man's life. And I was initially attributing that to you know, not like oh, big budget big Picture. I mean, it's only five million, but still. I then I needed to kind of step back and be like, no, the the performances that Lee is pulling out of this movie, and you know, the scenes that we're all talking about, the you know, the the bittersweet ending that is an ending. That isn't an ending. Uh, you know, it's really great to see this direction with Lee because it makes me not that you know, Malcolm X, you know, didn't make me want to watch more TV movies, but this makes me like interested in exploring more of his filmography because it shows a director that is versatile, that has a lot to offer, that uh you know, loves his city, that loves these character moments. So yeah, I'm going to give it a solid four. Maybe not by the poster, you know, but you got me covered on that, Tristan John. You know, I was wrestling with my rating coming into the discussion, But there are things about it that I truly love. The things where I have issue are papered over by the ending. That seems like a very dismissive way to say it, but like a strong ending can forgive a lot of sins. Brian Cox's monologue at the end as they're driving is phenomenal. I believe in God's Kingdom, you know, I just beautiful absolutely gutted me while I was watching it. The scene in the park where he gets Frank to beat him up, wow, so so amazing. The mirror scene stands out. There are a couple of things where I wish Monty had been more present, if they had found a way to have him be there for certain conversations. I think that the Anna Paquin storyline, it's important in the sense that it shows Jacob's failings, that he's not this paragon of perfection the way that the other two make him out to be, and also that their influence on him drags him down from where he should be right. I think there were a couple of clunky moments with Rosario Dawson where I don't really feel the chemistry between her and Norton effectively and their meat their meat cute. I think that there were a couple of flashback moments where I was able to peg that one is flashback immediately because his facial hair looked different. But then there are a couple of other moments where I'm like, this flashback feels like what's going on here? And I think in Malcolm XA were also some similar sort of struggles. But in terms of that ending, I think the ending lifts it greatly. So I wound up with a four point five. I think that on a rewatch, it could either go up or it could go down, but I think the score is great. I think the soundtrack choices are great. I think that the characterizations are just believable and amazing. So four point five from me. There's so much about this film that I love, and there's so much behind the scenes information that I didn't even get to talk about that just sometimes it's I marvel at the product that we got because the Toby McGuire purchased the rights to this book before it was even released, because he got a hold of the manuscript before it was published, and he got the film rights to it because he wanted to play Monty good Lord. I'm so glad that we didn't get a Toby McGuire led Twenty fifth Hour because that movie would have been horrible. He would have been horribly suited for that role. Garbage, But kudos to him. He had the opportunity to be Spider Man in two thousand and two, so I think he made the right choice. The universe has a way of, you know, working itself out. And there was one little tidbit that I absolutely love is that Ed Norton did a Red Dragon before he did this. In order to get this picture made. He used every single dollar made from Red Dragon to invest in this picture, and he wanted to be Monty so bad that, like, on the first day that David Benioff met ed Norton, Norton had his hair slicked back in Monty's style and he had a widow's peak. And Benioff didn't write that into the screenplay, but it was in the book. And he goes up to Norton, he said, he's like, oh, hey, you have a windows peak just like Manty. And he's like, yeah, I know, it's fake. He's like, I did this specifically because you know, I wanted to be like Monty as much as possible. And I feel like that that widow's peak is so characteristic, Like it's it's so the character. I have a hard time picturing Manty without a widows peak. And it's something so small, as something so simple, but it just shows the dedication that Norton brought to the role that I absolutely love. There's not a single thing I would change about this movie. I love this movie. I love ever before, every performance, every character, the music, the editing, everything about it. This is a five star film for me. This is this was a top ten film of mine for a very long time. I know I'm shocking both of you, right now you both are beside yourselves and the audiences as well. But this is this was a top ten film for me for a very long time. I don't know if it's still top ten. I have to reevaluate that internally, spiritually, ecumenically. But watch those director commentaries first. There you go, I do, I do. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that like tomorrow, Mara on my phone and listen to it. But yeah, the five stars for me. Thank you guys so much for this great conversation and allowing me to talk about twenty fifth hour because I've been wanting to do it for years. Darren, what are we doing next week on house Lights? That is hosted at the nerd party dot com. That's right, next week we still have even more Spike Lee, jumping almost another decade to twenty ten's Black Clansmen. Here on house Lights, Join the Revolution, Join the net Party.