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Off Record: Finding the Lost Girls (with Paul Holes) · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 1: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 1: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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  Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media. Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm
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  Speaker 1: Patia Eaton, I'm Hannah Smith. Today we're speaking with Paul Hols.
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  Speaker 1: You might know Paul. He has a podcast on the
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  Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media network called Buried Bones. It's a historical
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  Speaker 1: true crime podcast co hosted by Kate Winkler Dawson, and
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  Speaker 1: it is excellent.
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  Speaker 2: He is also a best selling author, television host, and
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  Speaker 2: retired cold case investigator with the Sheriff and District Attorney's
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  Speaker 2: offices in Contra Costa County, which is located in the
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  Speaker 2: Bay area of California, and he is perhaps most famous
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  Speaker 2: for his contributions to identifying the Golden State Killer.
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  Speaker 1: Today, we're going to talk with Paul about an audio
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  Speaker 1: book he released this year called Finding the Lost Girls,
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  Speaker 1: The Hunt to Solve a serial Killer's cold Cases. The
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  Speaker 1: serial killer in question is Joseph Naso. Paul worked on
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  Speaker 1: the Naso case back when he was an investigator and
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  Speaker 1: has since continued working to identify some of naso's victims
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  Speaker 1: who remain unidentified.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Paul Hols for coming on
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  Speaker 2: the show. We loved speaking with him and we think
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  Speaker 2: you'll really enjoy the episode.
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  Speaker 1: Paul, Welcome to the Knife.
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  Speaker 3: Hi, how's it going.
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  Speaker 1: It's great, Patient. I are really excited to speak with
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  Speaker 1: you today. We're so excited that you are on our podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, truly, we emailed our producer and asked and really
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  Speaker 2: thought of it as like a favor. So thank you
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  Speaker 2: for being here.
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  Speaker 3: That's my pleasure being here. Thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 1: So today we're mostly going to talk with you about
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  Speaker 1: out your audiobook, Finding the Lost Girls. But first, you know,
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  Speaker 1: for listeners who may not know your background, you're a
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  Speaker 1: former cold case investigator with the contract Costa County Sheriff's Office.
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  Speaker 1: You've worked a ton of investigations, but you know, probably
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  Speaker 1: most famously helping identify the Golden State Killer. I'm curious
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  Speaker 1: and as I was reading your book, I was really
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  Speaker 1: wanting to hear you talk a little bit more about
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  Speaker 1: how you ended up specializing in cold cases specifically, Like,
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  Speaker 1: was there a moment when you realize that this was
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  Speaker 1: the specific lane that you wanted to spend your time
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  Speaker 1: in Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: You know, what's kind of an unusual story is that
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  Speaker 3: I was originally hired with the Sheriff's office as a
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  Speaker 3: civilian forensic scientist, you know, So I was doing drug analysis,
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  Speaker 3: I was doing alcohol analysis and was bored out of
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  Speaker 3: my skull. My parents, for my twenty fifth birthday set
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  Speaker 3: me a book called Sexual Homicide Patterns and Motives. So
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  Speaker 3: imagine said, your twenty five year old son a book
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  Speaker 3: on sexual homicide, right a gift. But it turned out I,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I read that book and became fascinated with
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  Speaker 3: the serial predator. And for those that don't know, this
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  Speaker 3: is the sexual homicide text is the academic study that
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  Speaker 3: the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit did that ultimately the Netflix
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  Speaker 3: show mind Hunter was based off of, so that this
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  Speaker 3: is where the profilers are going in and interviewing these
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  Speaker 3: caught serial killers serial rapists, you know, and trying to
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  Speaker 3: figure out, you know, what makes them tick. So I
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  Speaker 3: kind of really became fascinated with that type of crime
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  Speaker 3: and that type of criminal. And as I was early
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  Speaker 3: in my career, I was just consuming content, and I
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  Speaker 3: was working for the Sheriff's lab at the time, and
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  Speaker 3: I had been promoted to a deputy sheriff criminalist position.
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  Speaker 3: So now I'm going out into the field homicides, auscer
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  Speaker 3: involved shootings, drug LFE, as you name it. I was
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  Speaker 3: out there, you know, and I was working at even
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  Speaker 3: though I was a scientist, I was doing the crime
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  Speaker 3: scene investigation, but then I was also doing the forensic
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  Speaker 3: science work, doing evidence examinations in the laboratory. And the
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  Speaker 3: lab had an incredible library, so I was just constantly
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  Speaker 3: reading books, and over in the corner was this old
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  Speaker 3: file cabinet, you know, one of the the office gray
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  Speaker 3: you know, four drawer vertical file cabinet that nobody went into.
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  Speaker 3: And I thought, what's in there? You know? So I
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  Speaker 3: start opening up the drawers, and the bottom drawer, which
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  Speaker 3: was very heavy, was just filled with Manila envelopes that
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  Speaker 3: were labeled with a red EA R and then a
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  Speaker 3: case number after that. And as I opened up each
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  Speaker 3: Manila folder, there was a case file in there, and
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  Speaker 3: it was a you know, one rape case after another. Well,
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  Speaker 3: I soon learned that that red EAR stood for East
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  Speaker 3: Area rapists, and I thought, this looks like it's an
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  Speaker 3: unsolved case. I wonder if I could potentially utilize this
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  Speaker 3: new fangled DNA technology to identify who this ysterio rapist was.
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  Speaker 3: And that was the very very first cold case that
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  Speaker 3: I actually started to pursue, and it was because it
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  Speaker 3: was a serial predator. I just was like, oh, I'm
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  Speaker 3: fascinated with serial predators. Here's this unsolved serial predator case.
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  Speaker 3: Let's see what I can do with it. Well, that
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  Speaker 3: case turned out to be the Golden State Killer case.
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  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 3: And so the very first cold case that I got
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  Speaker 3: involved with, it was ultimately twenty four years later, a
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  Speaker 3: case I helped solve back in twenty eighteen as a
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  Speaker 3: Golden State Killer. And I just started deciding that cold
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  Speaker 3: cases from my you know, looking at what was going
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  Speaker 3: on is people just didn't seem interested in them. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it's just like, why, you know, here's somebody it's either
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  Speaker 3: a missing kid or somebody who's been brutally slain and
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  Speaker 3: everything else. It's like, just because time has passed doesn't
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  Speaker 3: mean this isn't still an important case. And as I
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  Speaker 3: got more and more involved in pursuing these types of
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  Speaker 3: cases and meeting with families or even survivors of rapists,
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  Speaker 3: it's for them, even though the case was thirty years ago,
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  Speaker 3: it's like it happened yesterday. That's the unfortunate thing is
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  Speaker 3: is that law enforcement tends to address urgent public safety issues,
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  Speaker 3: but often fails to put resources on cases that have
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  Speaker 3: just kind of languished and have been forgotten.
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  Speaker 2: What kind of feedback did you get when you started
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  Speaker 2: looking through that file cabinet thinking maybe I can help here.
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  Speaker 2: Were people like, yeah, go see what you can do,
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  Speaker 2: or were they sort of like was it something they
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  Speaker 2: were taking seriously?
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, it really varied based on who we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about. My coworkers had no interest at all. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it was something that I just decided that I was
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  Speaker 3: going to pursue, and I was fortunate that my supervisor
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  Speaker 3: was okay with me spending time on doing some of this.
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  Speaker 3: In fact, she had been responding out to cases back
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  Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies, and you know, I said, I'm
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  Speaker 3: interested in looking at more unsolved cases. And so there
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  Speaker 3: was a nineteen seventy eight homicide of a jogger in
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  Speaker 3: the middle of the day that she got pulled off
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  Speaker 3: the trail and was later found strangled and sexually assaulted.
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  Speaker 3: And it's a case that my supervisor had a passion
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  Speaker 3: for and so she allowed me to start pursuing that
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  Speaker 3: one as well. So I was fortunate that at least
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  Speaker 3: my immediate supervisor was supportive. But I just kind of
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  Speaker 3: did it, you know, it was really nobody was going
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  Speaker 3: to stop me from doing it. I you know, would
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  Speaker 3: just kind of if I had downtime, I would be
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  Speaker 3: working the cold cases, and I often did a lot
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  Speaker 3: of the reading of the case files at home, you know,
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  Speaker 3: just take them home and read them. So it's, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I'm working during the day and then I'm working at night.
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  Speaker 3: That's just kind of the way I rolled back then.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, going home and reading those case files and then
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  Speaker 2: falling asleep. I don't know if I could do that.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, when I was reading Michelle McNamara's book, I
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  Speaker 1: could not go to sleep after. I'd have to be like,
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  Speaker 1: let me put on some reality television for a little bit.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the moment when Michelle wrote about the time that
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  Speaker 2: he was in there and there's a mom and a
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  Speaker 2: daughter and the mom thinks maybe he's left, and then
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  Speaker 2: the daughter goes, Mommy, be quiet or something. I think
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  Speaker 2: about that constantly.
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  Speaker 3: You know. That's where when you when you are talking
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  Speaker 3: about Golden State Killer and Joseph di Angelo. There's so
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  Speaker 3: much within each case that the public has never heard,
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  Speaker 3: you know, and it's such a huge number of cases
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  Speaker 3: that he committed. When you see like Michelle's special All
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  Speaker 3: Begne in the Darker her book, or even my book
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  Speaker 3: where I do detail some of the cases, but that's
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  Speaker 3: just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the details,
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  Speaker 3: because each case stands alone. And you know, when you
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  Speaker 3: are talking if you count the Fetish burglary, you said
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  Speaker 3: Joseph t Angel was doing as Vicelia Ransack, or you're
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  Speaker 3: talking over one hundred and sixty cases, you know that
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  Speaker 3: he is named as the primary suspect in You know
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  Speaker 3: now that we've identified him, but he was also committing
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  Speaker 3: other cases that we've never tied him to.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: One of the things about that case, particularly like I
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  Speaker 2: think it was at his sentencing that I've always wondered about.
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  Speaker 2: And I don't know if you would have any insight
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  Speaker 2: here on either a general level or in his case,
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  Speaker 2: but I believe it was his daughter, maybe also his granddaughter.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if they read their statement or just
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  Speaker 2: turned in like a written statement, but they just spoke
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  Speaker 2: so highly of him, almost in a way where I
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  Speaker 2: don't know if they were then outright like refusing to
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  Speaker 2: believe it, or if they just felt like this other
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  Speaker 2: side of him deserved to be spoken about, and I
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  Speaker 2: just thought, like, how strange given the scope of his crimes.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well I have, you know, some insight. You know,
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  Speaker 3: that was a written statement that his oldest daughter turned in.
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  Speaker 3: She was living with him, her child was living there,
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  Speaker 3: so he was grandpa and so for them that for
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  Speaker 3: his kids, they saw him as dad and grandpa, you know,
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  Speaker 3: And that's where they were devastated to find out that,
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  Speaker 3: oh no, he's a serial killer. The interesting aspect with DiAngelo.
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  Speaker 3: Most people assume that these serial predators are psychopaths, and
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  Speaker 3: that's not the case. You know, some of these serial predators,
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  Speaker 3: they do have empathy, they do have emotions, and DiAngelo
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  Speaker 3: is somebody that identifies as the family man even though
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  Speaker 3: he's this horrific killer, you know, And that in part
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  Speaker 3: is one of the reasons he has never talked about
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  Speaker 3: his crimes outside of having to admit them in court
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  Speaker 3: or plead guilty to them. He to this day has
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  Speaker 3: never talked and it's because he does not want to
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  Speaker 3: further embarrass himself. In front of his daughters, in front
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  Speaker 3: of his family, because he does truly care and his
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  Speaker 3: daughters do care for him. You know. I saw his
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  Speaker 3: two younger daughters the night of the arrest out in
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  Speaker 3: a Sacramento homicide lobby and they were sobbing. They were
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  Speaker 3: just dumbfounded that how could dad be this person?
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  Speaker 1: That's so interesting? And I think that's a good transition
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  Speaker 1: into talking about Joe Naso because you mentioned in your
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  Speaker 1: book Finding the Lost Girls, and I don't know if
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  Speaker 1: this is official or you know he's been diagnosed, but
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  Speaker 1: you basically portrayed Jo Naso as like also not a sociopath, right,
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  Speaker 1: someone who is capable of empathy. So you know, this
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  Speaker 1: book follows your investigation reinvestigation into the case of the
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  Speaker 1: serial predator, serial killer Joe Naso years after his conviction.
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  Speaker 1: He was convicted, I believe, of four murders in twenty thirteen,
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  Speaker 1: but there's a lot of compelling reasons to believe that
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  Speaker 1: there were additional victims, potentially many more victims. So I
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  Speaker 1: want to ask what made you decide to relook at
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  Speaker 1: this case, you know, from maybe both an interest level,
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  Speaker 1: but also as you are looking at cold cases, is
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  Speaker 1: there something specific that makes you think this is either
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  Speaker 1: solvable or worth looking into.
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  Speaker 3: So when Joe Naso first came to light, this would
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  Speaker 3: have been two thousand and eleven, and it was during
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  Speaker 3: a parole search and his parole officer, who was a
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  Speaker 3: young parole officer had just been assigned Joe Naso up
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  Speaker 3: there in the Reno, Nevada area, you know, goes and
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  Speaker 3: does a check on his parole and you know, Naso
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  Speaker 3: is uncooperative, doesn't want this new agent inside his house.
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  Speaker 3: And the new agent, to his credit, it's like, oh no,
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  Speaker 3: I'm coming in, and then starts to see some weird stuff.
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  Speaker 1: And hadn't he been he was on parole for something
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  Speaker 1: very almost benign, like theft or something.
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  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you know, he had shoplifted and then he
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  Speaker 3: had been caught selling firearms at flea markets.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so maybe I shouldn't say benign.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, you know, but relatively speaking, you know, this
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  Speaker 3: was just a low level crime versus what he actually
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  Speaker 3: was doing over the decades. Anyways, you know, the parole
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  Speaker 3: agent ends up seeing mannequins, you know, dressed up photographs
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  Speaker 3: of women. Some of these women looked either unconscious or dead,
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  Speaker 3: and they're just literally scattered around this just dumpster fire
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  Speaker 3: of a house. It was just you know, like it
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  Speaker 3: looked like a hornor house. You know, it's just horrible
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  Speaker 3: living conditions. And so this is where now you get
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  Speaker 3: Nevada dps coming out. You know, agents are coming out
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  Speaker 3: and they ultimately find what we don't refer to in
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  Speaker 3: the podcast Finding the Lost Girls, We don't talk much
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  Speaker 3: about what we in law enforcement called the rape diary.
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  Speaker 3: He literally had over one hundred entries going back to
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  Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties of women that he had sexually assaulted.
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  Speaker 3: And then there was what we called the top ten.
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  Speaker 3: He had written a list. There's no names on the list,
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  Speaker 3: but there was descriptors such as girl from Berkeley, lady
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  Speaker 3: from eight thirty nine, Levenworth, there was a girl near
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  Speaker 3: Port Costa. And this is how I got involved back
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  Speaker 3: in twenty eleven, because Port Costa was a small town
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  Speaker 3: in my jurisdiction, Contracosta County in the Bay Area. And
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  Speaker 3: then ultimately I knew of a case because I had
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  Speaker 3: compiled this knowledge of all the unsolved cases in my jurisdiction,
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  Speaker 3: and there was a nineteen seventy eight homicide of this
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  Speaker 3: Carmen Cologne, who had been working in Oakland and doing
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  Speaker 3: possibly some sex work in Oakland, and then she was
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  Speaker 3: found dumped nude off of the roadside near Port Costa,
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  Speaker 3: and ultimately that's one of the cases he was convicted of.
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  Speaker 3: So this top ten list we always knew this is
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  Speaker 3: a list of homicide victim. We convicted him of four
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  Speaker 3: of those ten, and then two others were identified and
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  Speaker 3: basically the cases were made, but he was never charged,
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  Speaker 3: So six of the ten were basically closed. But for
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  Speaker 3: me it was like unfinished business. Well who are these
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  Speaker 3: other four? And that's where the title Finding the Lost
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  Speaker 3: Girls comes into play. And so now with the financial backing,
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: now I could travel back to the Bay Area. I
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: live in Colorado now, so I could now go out
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  Speaker 3: there and start doing a bona fide investigation. And then
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: as I'm digging in, all sorts of twists and turns happened.
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  Speaker 3: Unexpected things are going on, as you probably are aware
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  Speaker 3: of if you've listened to Finding the Lost Girls.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because it's listed as an audio book.
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  Speaker 1: But as I was listening to it, I thought, this
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  Speaker 1: is a podcast. You narrate the podcast the audiobook, but
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  Speaker 1: there's also a lot of other voices. You interviewed different
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  Speaker 1: law enforcement agents, family members of some of the at
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  Speaker 1: the time, you know, unsolved homicide victims, and all of
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  Speaker 1: that is in there as well. So it very much
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  Speaker 1: sounds like a long form narrative podcast. It's super engaging
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  Speaker 1: to listen to. So do you call it an audiobook?
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  Speaker 3: Er?
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  Speaker 1: Do you call it a podcast?
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  Speaker 3: You know, I'm not even sure how I would define it.
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  Speaker 3: It's it's a format that Peter and I have done
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  Speaker 3: on other cases leading up to this to where as
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  Speaker 3: you mentioned, yeah, there's other voices, but it's also very dynamic.
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  Speaker 3: We are recording while I'm out in the field, you know,
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  Speaker 3: So we are literally at like one one case where
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  Speaker 3: a body had been recovered one of jo Naso's victims
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  Speaker 3: that he had been convicted of, and I'm there talking
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  Speaker 3: to the former chief of Investigations for da this Michael McBride,
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  Speaker 3: as we're standing on the side of the road, you know.
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  Speaker 3: So this is where the listeners actually are kind of
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  Speaker 3: sonically taken, you know, to the actual locations, and the
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  Speaker 3: listeners do like that, you know, being immersed in it,
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  Speaker 3: versus me just sitting behind a microphone. In my office.
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  Speaker 1: Definitely. It's it's much more engaging. It's great. So, okay,
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  Speaker 1: as you you know, reopen this file, which you say
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: is something like ten thousand pages, huge enormous file, and
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  Speaker 1: you're you know, looking through it and starting to look
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  Speaker 1: at these four unsolved victims who were named on this
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  Speaker 1: list of ten, but not based their names or anything
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  Speaker 1: like that or not. It's like these very cryptic descriptions
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  Speaker 1: like girl from Berkeley, right, you know, before we get
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  Speaker 1: into that aspect of it, can you tell listeners if
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  Speaker 1: they are not familiar with Joe Naso a little bit
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: about him, who he was. He's still alive, so I say,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: was what I mean like back in the seventies and
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  Speaker 1: eighties when he was active? What was his kind of emma?
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  Speaker 1: What was he doing? And where was he?
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  Speaker 3: So Joe nay, So you know, he originates out of Rochester,
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  Speaker 3: New York, and he is older. He was born in
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: the mid nineteen thirties. He's ninety one years old today.
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  Speaker 3: You know, he ends up, you know, he goes into
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  Speaker 3: the Air Force. He's overseas for a period of time,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: he's back in the United States, and then ultimately he relocates.
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  Speaker 3: He marries his wife, Judith, and they have two boys,
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  Speaker 3: two sons, and they ultimately relocate to the Oakland area
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  Speaker 3: in the Bay Area in the early nineteen sixties, and
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  Speaker 3: he ends up working as a professional photographer. And so
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  Speaker 3: this is where he ends up taking advantage of this
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  Speaker 3: job where he would approach women and you know, basically,
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  Speaker 3: I can make you a model, you know, come with me.
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  Speaker 3: Let's go to my studio, or let's go to a
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  Speaker 3: scenic location, and I'll take photographs of you, you know.
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  Speaker 3: And so that was one of his mos is that
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: he would you know, approach women and basically, you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: victimize their hopes and dreams, you know, use their hopes
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: and dreams against them in order to lure and isolate them. Now,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: there are there are many of his models that he
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: never attacked, but every now and then, you know, one
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: of these, you know, the young women, you know, would
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: go with him and that's the last moments of her life.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: So that's part of his mo or what kind of
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: way that he found his victims. He would also go
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: onto the stroll areas and pick up sex workers off
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: the stroll area and he would also try to get
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: them back either to his studio, or there's a thought
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: that he was possibly renting hotel rooms and would take
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: them into the hotel room for a photography session as
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: well as to engage in sex with the sex workers.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: And then he would kill some of these women. And
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: so in some of the cases that he was convicted of,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: the four cases he was convicted of were likely all
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: under this sex worker type of victimology. But there are
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: other victims, a notably girl from Berkeley where she wasn't
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: and he used the photography ruse to Laura and isolate her. So,
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: you know, he had different approaches just depending on where
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: he was at. One of his victims he met at
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: an Oakland a's game and you know, hey, I'm a photographer.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Here's my business card, right, And now she's seeing, you know,
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: at this time in the mid seventies, she's seeing a balding,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: you know, forty something man who's married. He had his
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: you know, his wedding band on, and he's coming off
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: as super nice and she's super comfortable and she goes
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: and meets with him, and next day she's found dead.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: One of the things that when I talk to groups
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: is the bad guy doesn't always look like the Boogeyman.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: And there's the Netflix movie on Ted Bundy that got
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: a lot of controversy because they used a very good
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: looking actor to portray Ted Bundy and it was like, no,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: you can't do that. It was like, well, no, this
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: is the reality. You know, some of these predators they're
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: good looking, they're charming, they wear suits, they're you know,
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: gainfully employed, and potential victims need to understand that. You know,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: you do have predators that are very engaging. And that
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: was Joe Naso. He's not like some big, you know, buff,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: good looking guy. He looked like your grandpa and that
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: women non threatening and he was very charming and was
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: very good at approaching women. I mean, he has so
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: many entries in his diary or his calendar on approaching
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: women for tea dances.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: What are those?
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: It's literally where you have people that are going to
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: like a dance hall and it's kind of very formal.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know if there's tea being served. I don't
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: know why that's you know, they're called tea dances. But
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: he was huge at doing that. He would approach women
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: on buses or be driving by. There's this one woman
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: who he ended up sexually assaulting in Berkeley in nineteen
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: sixty one, and he saw her waiting for a bus
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: as he's driving by. He picks her up, where do
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: you need to go? Takes her, drops her off where
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: she needed to go. The next night, he sees her
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: at the bus stop again. Now she's already got a
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: comfort with him, right because he helped her get to
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: where she needed to go, So he picks her up.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: This time, he doesn't take her where she needs to go.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: He ends up forcing drugs down her throat and raping her.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: So you know, he most certainly had the ability to
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: put women at ease. And in fact, the analyst that
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: did the work on his case she goes and testifies,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: and he represented himself at trial, and she came back
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: and said, Oh, he's such a nice guy. I was like,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: oh my gosh, he's a serial killer. You just fell
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: for his trap.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: What is this thing about people representing themselves?
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Well, this is an arcisstic personality, So this is you know,
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: he fancied himself as an attorney. You know, he had
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: done some legal work back in the nineteen seventies, He
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: had done some private investigation work. He was very litigious,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: so he was constantly in the nineteen seventies. As he's
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: killing women, he's also suing a lot of people for
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: trivial stuff. And so when he's now been arrested and
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: charged with these four murders, he's feeling, I can do
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: better than any any attorney that's going to represent me,
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: you know, And so that's what he tried to do.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: And generally when defendants represent themselves, it goes very poorly
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: for them, you know. And the judge made him have
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: some legal counsel, like an advisor there in court. But
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: Naso just basically he shot himself in the foot as
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: he's representing himself during his trial.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: When he was doing that, did he have anyone there
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: supporting him or believing in his innocence at that point.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: The only people that would have been there on his
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: behalf at this stage would have been one of his sons.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: So he had two sons. His oldest son had so
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: much potential when you look at his grades. I saw
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: his report cards, you know, and everything collected out of
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: Joe Naso's house, and looking at his son's report cards
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: going to junior college very bright. And that schizophrenia hit
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: him in his twenties and now he just really struggled
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: with that. His younger son is a banker and he's
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: the only one that I think would have supported him.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: But I don't know if he did. He was divorced
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: from his life at the point of his arrest, and
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: she testified against him. I don't think she's not there.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: I don't think he had any family in court supporting him.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm also wondering. I mean, I always hear this.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's advice or just a little
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: tip by hear because I read so much about crime.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: But it's like, never go to a second location. And
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: obviously these women that he was interacting with didn't know
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: that they were being you know, they may not have
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: been physically pulled into a car, for example, But how
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: did he convince them to go alone?
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Again, he was able to manipulate them because he put
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: them at ease, He knew how to talk to them.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: And this is where, even if they had hesitation, this
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: was their chance, their chance to be made famous, right,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: and so they often, I think, would throw caution to
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: the wind in order to take advantage of this opportunity.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: For me, this is such a kind of a I
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: don't know, horrible is the right term. It is really
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: just such a foul way that these predators manipulate their
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: victims because it is they are getting their victims excited.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: These victims are going to his studio excited, this is
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: their big break, only to end up being strangled and
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: sexually assaulted and dumped. So it is just such a
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: horrific mindset that he has, you know, to take advantage
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: of that type of kind of emotional lure, if you will.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so horrible, and it's interesting as you kind
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: of go through the case and talking about him, even
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: as you've mentioned this sort of meticulous notebook that he
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: kept of all of the women that he'd raped and
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: sexually assaulted over decades, and that he kept track of that,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: even if he didn't use identifying names that he didn't
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: in the list of ten, he was clearly keeping track
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: and that seemed important to him. But really, as you
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: mentioned with his son, his two sons, but his son
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: who was there at the trial you talk about in
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the book, a little bit of naso. Even with all
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: this evidence, obviously only four homicides were proven in court
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: at the time, and he was convicted of but he
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about it, like he didn't want
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I think he said at one point he just didn't
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: want his son to know these things about him or something. Yeah,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: what can you say about that?
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: No, for sure, you know. And this is where there
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: is a similarity between Joe Naso and Joseph di'angelo the
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Golden State Killer. Where Joe Naso, I mean, he truly
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: loved his son, so he took his oldest son, the
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: one with schizophrenia, under his wings. I mean, he truly
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: cared for his son. And to this day, Joe Naso,
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: like I wanted to go talk to Joe Naso, turns
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: out that somebody else was already talking to him, so
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: I had to kind of move into a support role.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: But one of the reasons that Naso is not just saying, hey,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: here's all the cases that I've done, is because he's
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: concerned about how his sons are going to you know,
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: see him. You know. So this is where you know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Naso very much does see himself as this family man.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: As absurd as that might sound, but that's the reality
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: of the psychology behind Joe Naso. But when you look
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: at Joe Naso and I know probably most of your
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: listeners probably have never heard of Joe Naso. Joe Naso
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: is one of the most prolific serial predators ever here
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: in the United States. I mean, this guy was sexually
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: assaulting starting in the nineteen fifties, going all the way
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: up to killing at least into the mid nineteen nineties.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: You're talking over a four decade span a violent crime
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: against women, and yet hardly anybody knows about him.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: You know, when you hear numbers like that or you
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: know that amount of time for decades, it's always to me, like,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: I know that people can be really good at keeping secrets,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: and we're talking about way before you know, social media
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: and camera phones. But still I just always ask myself, like,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: did no one ever suspect anything? You know? Do you
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: have any take on that as far as Joe Naso's
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: friends relatives are concerned.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: So he ends up marrying his wife Judith either nineteen
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: fifty nine to nineteen sixty one time for him, I
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: can't remember exactly when, and they stay married up until
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy seven. And you know, there are photos in
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Joe Naso's collection of his wife Judith unconscious. He's drugged her.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: She did provide a statement that at one point she
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: woke up and there was some strange man having sex
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: with her and Joe Naso I think was probably taking
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: photos of this, you know, So she most certainly knew
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: what he was capable of, but he hid a lot
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: of what he is doing from her and would take
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: advantage when she's out of town with the kids or something.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: That's when he's out there trolling for victims. So he
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: most certainly was trying to prevent most notably his wife,
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: from knowing what he was doing. But you go back,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: I briefly talked about how he picked up the gal
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: from the bus stop in Berkeley in nineteen sixty one
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: and then shoved drugs literally is forcing drugs down her
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: throat to get her to where she is physically incapable
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: of fighting back, and then he sexually assaults her. Berkeley
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: PD investigated this case. They interviewed him, and they basically
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: told him, well, don't do that again, get out of town.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Are you kidding me? That's how pitiful law enforcement would
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: treat sexual assault. I saw it for cases in my
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: jurisdiction from the sixties into the seventies. You know, we
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: hear the term victim blaming. There was a lot of
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: that going on, and that's just unfortunate. And here Berkeley
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: had a chance to stop a very prolific serial predator
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty one, and they didn't, and he went
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: on to victimize probably more women than ninety nine percent
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: of the known serial predators in the United States.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, And I don't know if this was
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the same case, but didn't they say something to her
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: like it sounds like it was consensual or something?
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, horrible like that, right, yeah, because you know
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: she had gone you'd have the first night where you know,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: he's just a good guy, taking her from the bus
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: stop to I think it was a restaurant where her
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: boyfriend was working at the time, so he's a good guy.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: And then so the next night when he picks her up,
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: they actually go out and they have some drinks together,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: and then he says, hey, I need to go buy
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: my house. And he comes out with some tablets and
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: a glass of water and says, here take this, and
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: this is where she goes, uh no, you know, and
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: then that's where he ends up forcing the drugs down
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: her throat, which was a torridol, which is a sedative,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: to get her to where she literally physically would not
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: be able to fight back. So this is where while
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: she did have drinks with him, and so the investigators
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: are like, well, you know, you kind of brought this
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: on to yourself. No, you don't understand. It doesn't work
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: that way. You know, this does not give this guy
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: permission to sexually assault you, even though you had what
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: you would say a consensual social encounter with them earlier
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: that evening. So that's just where these investigators just completely
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: It's not even just dropping the ball. They just were
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: not even recognizing what they were dealing with, and they
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: were blaming her.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you have to imagine brushes like that
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: with law enforcement could have the effect of giving him
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: more confidence that he can get away with this kind
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: You know, well, no, absolutely, the more he succeeds, the
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: greater his confidence. Is. One of my theories is early on,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: when he starts killing, he has to dispose of the victims' bodies.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: He's probably doing a lot more to hide the bodies,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: whether it's digging shallow graves or you know, really putting
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: a lot more effort in. But as time went on.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: You see, he is now just literally dumping the victims'
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: bodies off of the sides of roads or hiking trails.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: Later in the nineties, I mean, he literally is posing
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: a body in a cemetery. So he's got the ultimate confidence.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: He's been doing this for decades and law enforcement has
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: never run across him for this type of crime. So
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: he's in many ways full of confidence. But that's also
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: where mistakes are made, you know, And then ultimately he
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: does make a mistake. He's got stuff on display inside
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: his house, and he's a parole lead, and now the
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: parole agent is seeing things that NASO probably didn't want
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: to be seen.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Fortunately that par officer went inside. I mean, my gosh.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: So when you start this podcast audiobook, when you started
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: reinvestigating this and trying to find missing cases or I
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: guess not missing persons, but unsolved homicide cases that might
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: align with these four unidentified victims on Naso's list, to
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: try to find out who these victims were and solve
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: these cases. At that point in time, you were no
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: longer a member of law enforcement officially, right, you had
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: worked on this case when you were, But then you know,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: years later, when you reopen it. You were no longer,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: so you're kind of you're mestigating this as a private citizen,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: obviously with a lot of contacts still, But how did
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: that change the way that you work to the case.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Were their differences and access or advantages and things like that.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I will tell you it's very, very frustrating no
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: longer having access to the resources that I had when
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: I was a law enforcement officer. I don't think that
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: civilian population truly appreciates the type of data that we
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: can get when we are law enforcement with the law
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: enforcement databases and so relying on public sector information whether
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: it be Google or or some paid services, it is
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: not the same. It's very frustrating. And this is where
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: fortunately I do have lots of contacts, and so I
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: will call up the phone and have a current law
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: enforcement member, you know, the former bud. Hey, this is
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: what I'm doing. Can you help me out? And there's
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: certain things law enforcement can't to do, right, and I
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: would never ask them to do something that they legally
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: can to do, but there are things that they can
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: do to help me out, and I would get that
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: type of information. But doing an investigation as a civilian
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: it is a little bit more challenging. But this is
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: where from my perspective is, I've always tried to maintain
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: my relationships within law enforcement. I don't burn bridges because
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: first I still consult with law enforcement on their unsolved cases.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: I want to continue to do that. And even though
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: I'm in this true crime space and I'm like this,
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: fighting the Lost Girls is a true crime project, I'm
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: legitimately trying to solve unsolved cases that will benefit law enforcement.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: So it is a little bit of a tap dance
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: that I have to do today. And there are some
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: agencies that are much more willing to be open with
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: me and work with me. And there's some agencies that
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: are thanks, no thanks, and the Doris Land and there's
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: not much I can do about that.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: When some agencies being less receptive. Why do you think
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: that is? You know, from the outside looking in, you
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: would think, or I would think, just be grateful for
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the help, right, like take the help.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: The philosophy is driven from the top person with that agency,
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: whether it be the elected sheriff or the police chief.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: And there are personal philosophies on cooperation. You know, It's
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: funny I sat down with She's an FBI agent that
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: is a voice in finding the lost girls. And we
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: went out and had some drinks and I was expressing
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: my frustration about some of these agencies aren't working with me.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: And she was like, Paul, you're media now, and I
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: was like, no, I'm not. As she goes your media now,
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: oh come on. And so over the years, agencies, and
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: I've had my own experience with media, there have been
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: agencies that have been burned by somebody a reporter, a journalist,
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: et cetera. And so they have a tendency to be
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: very kind of standoffish when media starts poking around. This
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: could be because of those prior bad experiences, and I've
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: seen that firsthand. I've had my own. And it's also
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: this mentality is that, well, they're just going to look
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: at the you know, the negative stuff where we had
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: missus or we did something wrong here, and they're not
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: going to highlight the good things that we're doing. It's
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: a tough thing. So for me, the media is an
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: outlet in order to be able to message to the public.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: So if you're a law enforcement agency and you have
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: a case, if you have a good relationship, you can
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: provide information that you want to get out to the
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: public in order to help benefit the case, and so
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: many agencies just don't look at it that way.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting, interesting relationship with media and law enforcement,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: especially in true crime. Yep, we've seen it work really well.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: And then there's also instances where I can totally understand
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: why a law enforcement agent would be pretty annoyed, you know,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: at how the story turns out or how they're portrayed.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: But when it does work well, I think it's really
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: cool because then we've seen so many instances of the
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: media really like helping to highlight cases and get attention
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: on them.
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: As an example, my sheriff's office has social media account.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: I haven't looked at it in my former sheriff's office,
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: I should say, so, if they want to put something
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: out on social media to get the public's attention, they
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: might have three thousand followers. I as an individual have
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: over one hundred thousand. Right, I have such a bigger
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: voice now that I'm in this true crime world, if
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: you will, I can magnify things much bigger than what
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: they can do through their own social media, you know.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: And that's where it's just recognizing what is best for
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: whatever message you need to get out there, whether it's
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: case specific or whether it's a hey, look at you
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: know this new program we're implementing here in law enforcement.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Take advantage of the people that are going to basically
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: try to assist in whatever goals you have, case related
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: or philosophy or programs, whatever, and too many agencies just
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: bury their head in the sand and don't cooperate.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, before I got my first job in podcasting, I
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: wanted to make an audio reel and so I found
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: a cold case on Middle Tennessee. I ended up flying
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: out there interviewing people in like a little Olympus recorder.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, yeah, I had.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: No idea what I was doing. But anyway, this reminded
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: me of it because these two kids went missing and
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: they'd been missing, you know, at the time, it was
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: like they'd been missing twenty years or something. But I
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: spent so much time with law enforcement, and they were,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the agencies you're talking about who's
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: super receptive and I was no one, but they were
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: just happy someone was like gonna talk to people about it.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: And so I do credit them in that regard. And
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: basically it just showed me so much about Yeah, I mean,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: when you look back over time at how much training
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: has changed, education for law enforcement officers, just the note
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: taking capabilities now with computers like that whole sheriff's office
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: had one computer, so they weren't taking really detailed notes,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: and they certainly weren't taking these notes in real time.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: It gave me a lot of compassion when you look
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: back and say, how did this go on for so long?
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: When we're talking about law enforcement. Obviously, these Berkeley officers
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: did a terrible thing brushing off a sexual soul. So
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that that's acceptable ever. But protocol and
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: communication and the resources that we give law enforcement to
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: do better, it matters, and it goes a long way.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: Law enforcement is generally, you know, at least at what
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: I would say is at the local level, we're probably
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: usually twenty years behind in terms of you know, what
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: you see in the private sector with technology and resources.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: Some agencies are better than others, you know, and a
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: lot of it it's money. Do you have money. I
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: kind of bridged the evolution of the technology. When I
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: first started. I literally hand wrote my reports that went
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: to a secretary who typed them and then I would
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: review find mistakes, the secretary would have to retype it,
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: and then I would sign the report and then ultimately
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: that would you know, be released. And then we started
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: getting these fancy computers, you know, and I was like,
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: oh my god, that was game changing. But when you
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: start talking about cases like with Joe Naso, and you know,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: we're talking cases, you know, at least the cases that
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: you know he's done for sure, we're talking, you know,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: homicides in the nineteen seventies, but he likely probably has
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: homicides in the nineteen sixties. And now you're dealing with
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: handwritten investigative reports, right being a cold case investigator, I
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: just I've kind of developed kind of my own methods
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: and processes on how to deal with the lack of
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: digitization within these case files.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you know, I want to talk about
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: one point in the book that really stood out to me.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: You were investigating the nineteen seventy seven murder of Pamela
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: lamps In, which was an unsolved homicide, and in the
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: book there's multiple homicides that you are kind of looking
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: at and wondering if they could be victims of Joe Naso.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: But it's great because in the book you also you
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: take us through these cases and humanize these victims in
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: such a great and important way. And I really thought
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: that Pamela Lamps in section was fascinating and her case
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: at the time, there was some suspicion that perhaps she
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: had been a victim of Rodney Alcala, who was another
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: serial predator in California, who also was a photographer. And
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: as you are digging into her case and you hit
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: a bunch of roadblocks and just do a really good
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: job of talking about her family and all these unanswered questions,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: and you had a moment where you stopped and you
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: verbalized this question that really stuck with me, and you said,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: you know, why does this matter? Because let's say she
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: was killed by Rodney Alcala. Well, let's say she was
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: killed by Joe Naso. Like it's probably one or the other.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Rodney Alcala is dead, Joe Naso is alive, but he's
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: never getting out of prison. And you know her parents
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: have passed away. Believe she does have a living sibling.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: But you say, like, so, why spend so much time
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: and energy trying to know for sure? Like what is
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: the value of that. I was hoping you could kind
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: of speak about that a little bit.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Well, this kind of gets back to really understanding what
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: real crime is and the impact of real crime, you know.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: And like when I talk, when I go to let's say,
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: a crime con, I will tell the audience that I'm
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: very much in this true crime space, you know, and
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: it's okay to consume true crime, but understand that these
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: true crime stories there is a real crime behind it.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: And I've been on that front. I've seen the horrors
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: of what happens to these victims. I've seen the devastation
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: to the families. And when you see families, even if
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: it's a forty year old case, and you see families
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: that are still suffering because of the loss of their
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: loved one, you know, it's little things like I have
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: one case, nineteen seventy four case in which every Thanksgiving
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: the family still sets the table for their loved one
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: and that was killed back in nineteen seventy four. She's
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: not sitting there with them, but they still do. It
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: doesn't matter if it's four decades, like with Pama Lambson,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: you know, nineteen seventy seven case, it doesn't matter that
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: it was in nineteen seventy seven. To the family, it's
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: as if it happened yesterday. And that's something that I
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: learned just by exposure to the families. I've literally heard
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: a DNA analyst say, well, they've waited this log. They
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: can wait longer, you know, and it's like, well, no,
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: you're not somebody that's actually interacting with these families. If
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: it was your child that went missing or had been murdered,
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: you'd be wanting law enforcement to be working it until
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: you got an answer on what happened or she or
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: he is found, right, you know, And people think, well, O,
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: the guy's dead. Well I was told the Golden State
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: killer was dead, but no he wasn't. Joseph Diangel was
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: very much alive and he very much is physically capable
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: of hurting and killing somebody at this stage in his life.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't want to, you know, get into
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: I don't want to give away you know, what you
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: discover in sort of this winding road that your investigation
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: leads you on in finding the Lost girls, because I
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: think that listeners should just listen to it. It's fantastic,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: and you do come up with some answers, so at
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: least say that, which is very satisfying. One of the
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: things though, listening to your tape along the way and
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: investigating this, you make recordings of yourself as you're going
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: along the process. And maybe it's this and then heading
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: a roadblock, And what does it take to be someone
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: who sticks with a cold case and is determined to
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: solve it. And I don't know if that is different
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: from an active current case, like a recent case, but
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: it just seems like it seems like it's hard, and
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: it takes a long time, and it takes some kind
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: of internal motivation or something to do that work.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think internal motivation is spot on investigations, whether
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: it's you know, it's let's say you have a you know,
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: an active case who done an investigation. You know, those
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: typically are fast and furious initially, and then as time
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: goes on things start to slow down. So now it's
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: being motivated initially to actually, you know, roll up the
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: sleeves and do the work. But it's also very deflating.
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: When I would run into a roadblock, it's like I
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: thought I had I was onto something and that ends
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: up just petering out. And I know, like from Golden
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: State Killer or for other cases, is that those are
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: naturally going to happen, and I've learned, Okay, I just
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: need to kind of recalibrate, reassess, and then develop a
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: plan to move forward. But it takes an emotional and
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: psychological amount of effort in order to kind of Okay,
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: I got to get through this and hope. And that's
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: what you're driven by, is hope that this next investigative
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: thrust is actually going to be successful. And that is
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: what homicide investigation is, as you fail over and over
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: until you succeed, and you just have to be able
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: to survive that failure without just cratering yourself.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. In the audiobook podcast, you know how much bourbon
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: was consumed during the durn In this podcast I loved
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: because it's not like you're writing it all in the
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: moment you know it's over. I don't know how long months,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: years that you're doing this, and so you have these
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: moments where you'll go into your study and pour yourself
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: a bourbon and think about the case. But I wondered
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: what it was for you personally, like almost like an
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: obsession or something with the need to solve these cases.
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Finding the Lost Girls took two and
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: a half years, right. Most of that was the investigative part,
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: and then there was some working with the producer at
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: the end kind of stitch the episodes together, you know,
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: for the storytelling aspect. But part of the project was
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: to let the listeners into sort of my mindset at
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: various points in time, and that was where I would
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: do diary entries, whether I be here in my office
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: or at home, or I'm actually out in the Bay
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: Area I just met with somebody and would would sit
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: down and record those entries kind of in the raw.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: And yeah, there was a you know shipload at Bourbon
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: that was consumed in this process to be frank, you know.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, I'm a very private person,
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: and so this was kind of a new thing for me,
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: is that on the fly during the moment, I'm now
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: having to kind of express myself in these diary entries
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: so people can kind of understand this is sort of
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: the impact that this case is having on me in
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: the moment. So that's I think part of the experience
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: of Finding the Lost Girls, because sometimes it's not am
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: I succeeding or failing at the investigation. I'm now visualizing
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: as I find out more about what happened to that
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: victim and the last moments of her life, and now
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: having to let the listeners know, oh my god, this
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: is horrific what he did to her. That's just the
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: reality of you know, when you work these cases and
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: you're looking at it from the victim's perspective as she's
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: being strangled and sexually assaulted and killed, and then you're
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: having to go into the offender's mind, why is he
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: doing this? What is he experiencing? You know, as he's
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: tightening his grip around her neck. You have to look
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: at it from both sides, and that takes a toll,
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: you know, And that's where the Bourbon comes in.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: And I imagine you have to answer a lot of
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: difficult questions because you're in contact with these families looking
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: for an answers. And do you find that they want
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: to know more about what happened or do they ever
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: then learn and regret knowing those details that then, of
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: course they can't ever unlearn.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: It's very individual in terms of what they want. I
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: would say a majority of family members they want an answer.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: There are some that I've experienced that they're going, we
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: don't want to know anymore. We've moved past that in
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: our life. And then there are others that they go,
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: I want to know everything. It really is individual as
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: to what each family member or survivor wants out of
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: the knowledge of case. I will tell you with Golden
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: State Killer, even with the strongest survivors, they were re
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: traumatized once they knew who their rapist was. They kind
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: of shrunk away from kind of they're not going to court.
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: They're they're not hearing all the details. They don't want that.
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: And others, once they kind of got over that shock
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: of that re trauma, they're like, I want to know more.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: I want to sit in court and look at him
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: and stare him down. And so it is. It's very individual.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: What a traumatizing for sure, but what a strange experience
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: to then see him there as this old man.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, and of course he he pretended,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: you know, you know, to be this you know, frail
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: old guy in a wheelchair, and everybody saw through that.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: You know, he was like.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: Doing pull ups in his cell or something like that.
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he's doing jumping jacks, he's climbing, you know,
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: on the the bed and and video the da Anne
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: Marie Schubert, after the core process was done, she made
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: sure the sheriff released the videos of di'angelo and how
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: physically capable he was. We knew it, you know, under surveillance.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: We saw him working in his yard. We saw him
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: working on his car. He was driving his motorcycle at
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: over one hundred miles an hour through residential streets. The
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: guy in his you know, at the time, I think
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: it was in his early seventies when he was arrested.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: He was a very physically fit seventy year old. Even
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: though he was heavier, he was on the heavier side,
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: but he still was very physically capable. That's just part
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: of the story with Golden State Killer. There's so much
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: on that case. It's crazy.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: There was a moment where he blamed it on Jeffrey, right,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: this like alter ego situation. What do we know about that?
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: Well, I was there, so Joseph Deangel when he was
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: in the interview room. The Sack homicide sergeant went in
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: there to do the initial part of the interview and
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: Deangel never talked, never engaged during the interview, and then
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: every now and then the sacks arget left and DiAngelo
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: would sit there and start muttering to himself, talking to himself,
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: and it was very faint, you know. So I've got
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: headphones on and I'm listening to him, and I'm not
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: able to make out exactly what he's saying, but I
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: could hear some things about him saying things to the effect, well,
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: he made me do this, right, And I was like, oh,
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: come on, he's now try to set up a mental
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: illness defense, right, kind of an insanity defense, And that's
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: what I think he was trying to do there. DeAngelo
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: is the ultimate tactician, and so when he's in that
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: interview room, he is just listening to the homicide sergeant
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: asking questions and he's trying to discern what do they
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: have on me, you know, and he's trying to figure
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: out how am I going to limit the impact of
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: this on me? And that was part of what he
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: was doing when he's doing is muttering, and it sounds
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: almost like David Berkowitz, you know, son of Sam and
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: the German shepherd that was talking to him or whatever
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: it was. You know, there's some dog. Deangel was kind
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: of trying to do the same thing. Kenneth Bionkei Hillside
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: Strangler also try to do that. You know, he had
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: trying to come up with multiple personalities and it was
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: a different personality that was actually the killer. And D'Angel
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: showing up in courked in a wheelchair. That's all part
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: of this ploy to be a sympathetic character.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: So we think Jeffrey was just fake made up.
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely fake made up for sure.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: You know, I have a question for you that I've
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: asked a few people this now and never gotten a
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: real answer. And maybe it's because we don't know, but
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: I would be curious about your take on it. We
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: hear about a lot of serial predators, whether they're serial
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: rapists or murderers, from like the nineteen seventies, eighties and
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: this period of time and probably before we had this
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: huge jump in technology of now everyone has a phone
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: in their pocket and there's cameras everywhere, cameras on cars
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: now And as far as you're aware, has there been
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: a decline of serial killers with the increase of surveillance
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: and technology or is it just happening in a different way.
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: It's happening in a different way now in terms of
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: total numbers. I mean We've never known the full extent
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: of how many serial predators are out there at any
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: given point in time. There's always been estimates, but those
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: estimates are crude at best. I can say, like in
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: the Bay Area, there was a very obvious evolution in
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: terms of how the predators operated. One of the phrases
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: that I always say is, you know, predators go to
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: where the prey is at right, So you think about
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: let's say the nineteen sixties, this is where you have
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: so many people that are hitchhiking, and then you have
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: an ed kemper who's picking up college aged girls who
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: are hitchhiking. He wasn't unique. This was a very very
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: common thing. Because you have a victim that is voluntarily
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: getting into your car that you have no connection to.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: Law enforcement's not going to be able to in the
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixties tie you to a hitchhiker that was on
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: the side of the road. So this was a built
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: in victim pool that predators took advantage of. Well, eventually
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: people started to understand it is dangerous to hitchhike, particularly
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: for women. You don't see women alone hitch hiking once
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: you start getting into the seventies. Now what you do
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: see is this is where you have somebody like a DiAngelo,
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: somebody who's willing to break into a house. Houses back
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: then did not have security systems. Many of them did
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: not have dead bolts, right, So this was something which
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: the predators were utilizing the house as a way to
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: isolate their victims, and it was the victim's own house
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: that they were breaking into. Once they're inside the house
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: and they have control over the victim, you don't have
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: any witnesses being able to peer into the house. You
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: control the victim's ability to yell out or to scream.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: Now you can control the ability of ear witnesses in
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: the surrounding area. But as time went on, this is
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: where now security systems started to be installed in houses,
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: dead boats were installed in houses. It became harder to
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: get into these houses safely for the predator. And then
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: of course you fast forward to where now you have
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: the persistence of surveillance videos everywhere in a neighborhood. We
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: have you know, law license plate readers, you know, distributed
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: it throughout any given town or city, smart devices with
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: location services or Wi Fi connections. There's so many ways
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: that now an offender has to think well, I can't
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: do this, this, and this, because that's the way they
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: can find me. The online space is probably the most
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: dangerous space to run across a predator today, and that's
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: whether you know your female, your male, or you are
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: a kid. Of course, you still have predators that are
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: finding victims in the physical space, but the online space
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: is where a majority of them are. And you know,
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: who knows how many are out there, but there are
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: a lot. And there's probably a lot of victims that
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: have just disappeared and never been reported missing because of
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: their own victimology.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there was that case I guess maybe it
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: was a year or two ago now, that a teenage
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: girl in Arizona just left in the middle of the
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: night and then walked into a little police station in
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Montana at eighteen wanting to be taken off the missing
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: person's list. And then the man that she'd been living
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: with was arrested for having all kinds of CEESAM on
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: his phone and computer child texabues material and he yeah,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: he's in jail now or present, and she's finally back home.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: But I just think, like, wow, she was online.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: In law enforcement, we see this every single day. You know,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: we have our i CAAC Task Force Internet Crimes against
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: Children and I was over the Sexual Assault unit when
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: I was at the DA's office. So I had the
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: sexual assaults investigators from the DA's office that were part
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: of ICAC, and then they would come in with what
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: we call an OP order, you know, operations plan, and
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: it's like, yep, you know, we got this guy got
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: his IP address. He's you know, sending se sam you know,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: back and forth with this underage kid. Well, actually it
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: was an investigator that was posing as an underage kid.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: You know. Now the guy is saying, hey, can we
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: meet up? And so now it's it's go and kick
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: that guy's door. And it's a principle to a school.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: It's a minister, it is an emergency room doctor, you know,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: and it's all the time. This is not a rare event.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: This is a very very common type of EVENSE that
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: is occurring. It's the online space and where it's occurring,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: you know, and that's with the underage but it's also
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: occurring with adults.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: Wow, oh god.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Well, just to wrap up Finding the Lost Girls, which
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: everyone should go listen to on audible, was there anything
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: that you know, we didn't talk about that. You wanted
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: to mention about Joe Naso or any of the women
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: that were his victims that comes to mind, It's okay
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: if not, I just like to give the opportunity to
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: say anything that we skipped over.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: No, I just you know, I think for people when
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: they're listening to Finding the Lost Girls, you know, I
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: initially set out to try to identify the for remaining
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: victims off of this list of ten. It turns out
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: there's a lot more than just for and so there's
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: almost a two be continued aspect to this. And even
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: though I think that there are some good answers and
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: good conclusions and finding the Lost Girls, it's a huge
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: case and it's a case that people need to pay
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: more attention to than what they have up to this point.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: And are you still working on it.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: I'm not working on it at this moment in time,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: but there's a chance that I will be revisiting it
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: in the future.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Okay. I know that you have so many projects going
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: all the time. Not even to mention your wonderful podcast
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson as your co host,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: which is also on exactly Right Media is there any
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: of the other projects that you're really excited about that
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: you wanted to clue our listeners into.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I just dug into the death of Marilyn Monroe,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: you know, and that was something that aired on Fox.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: I'm waiting to hear if they're going to want to
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: do more of these kind of call it celebrity crime scenes,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: you know. So that's a possibility. I'm going to be
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: working with Peter McDonald again for some other audible projects
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: that will be in the vein of Finding the Lost Girls,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: you know. So that's where I'm kind of tabling Joe
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: Nasel now. But there's kind of similar things, similar cases
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: that I will be doing moving forward. There's a couple
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: other TV shows that we're currently negotiating on and one
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: of them will be an active investigation, but a very
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: different type of case than what I typically get involved with.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: And that right now is just the production company is
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: just trying to find a home, you know, a network
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: for it. And there's potentially another TV show that could
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: become a series which I would be helping law enforcement
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: with unsolved cases. So right now, I've got a lot
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: of balls up in the air, and I'm just waiting
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: to see you know what happens.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, very exciting. I know at least one person
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: and who's obsessed with Marilyn Monroe, who I'm going to
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: immediately tell about this episode. You said it's on Fox.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: Where can we watch it?
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: So now it initially aired on Fox and now it's
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: available on Hulu I believe. So they just have to
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: look there and it's called Celebrity Crime Scenes Death of
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: Marilyn Monroe.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, Paul, this has been such a pleasure. Thank
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: you so much for joining us on The Knife, and
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: we hope to maybe meet you in person in the
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: studio one day.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: I'd love it. Yeah, we'll go out and have some
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: bourbon together. How's that?
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be awesome.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: I did make a note if ever we need to
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: get Paul Holes a gift. He likes a urban.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It was just so great to
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: speak with you.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: Oh it's been fun. Thanks for having me.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: If you have a story for us, we would love
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: the Knife podcast or a Blue Sky at Night podcast.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Pasha Eeny.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.