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AIM High: Prioritising local needs in Europe with central resources · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to this first podcast series brought to you by the Association of Investment Marketers, or AIM, as we call it.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Twink Field, your host for this podcast series, director of AIM and CEO of White Marble Marketing.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: This AIM High podcast is dedicated to marketers in financial services, and we are having conversations with a range of experts talking about the industry, about products, giving practical tips as well as talking about personal development and careers.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: And today we are talking about the challenges and opportunities of marketing across Europe, which is a difficult market to get right.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm delighted to say that we couldn't find two more highly qualified people to talk about this subject.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Diana Mackay, who is MD in of the Global Distribution Solutions part of Broadbridge.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: She's hugely well known for her experience, insight, and analysis of the global funds market.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: So really excited to have her with us, as well as Pete Beckett.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: He's the global head of distribution marketing at Schroeder's and again, really highly experienced and really well-respected figure in the industry.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: So really looking forward to covering a range of topics with them today.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I should say that this podcast was recorded on the 7th of January, which hopefully gives some context to the references to events political or otherwise.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to have Pete and Diana with me today, talking about the challenges and yes, opportunities of marketing in Europe.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've had some experience when I was at Aberdeen and also working with clients, but I'm delighted to have uh two people of such caliber to really share their thoughts on the subject matter.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think the best place to start is for you each to maybe introduce yourselves and um and maybe just also just to give a bit of a feel for where you think the market is right now.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Diana.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with me.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Diana Mackay.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a managing director for Broadridge Insights, and I've really spent the last 30 years, I think, uh studying Europe, uh collecting data and trying to figure out uh what the trends are, what the direction of travel is.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um so on in that vein, um, 2019 has been uh, we always say this, a year or two halves.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And this time, the first half was pretty ropey, uh, negative sentiment throughout, um, very difficult to make any um or generate much new business at all.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: But then in the middle of the year, it all started to change, and this was a lot to do with central bank activity, more quantitative easing, more commitment to keep low interest rates.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Ums really began to blossom.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, bond funds had been booming along anyway.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but suddenly in the last couple of months, we've seen some activity in equities, which is interesting because equity markets have performed fantastically.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: They did perform fantastically last year.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think the MSCI put on 22.6%.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's the best we've seen in the last five years.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And yet nobody was investing in equities until at least the last couple of months, two or three months.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to end on a high, and that will probably roll through into the first quarter, and then it's anyone's guess.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Pete, do you want to introduce yourself and maybe make comments around that?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, my name is Pete Beckett.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm at Schroeder's, and my role is the global head of distribution marketing.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now a bit less um time on the ground than Diana.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it'll be coming up 20 years of asset management marketing experience in June.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I short I joined Schroeder's back then.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, wonderful timing, just at the peak of the um dot-com boom.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so an interesting time to join the industry.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I did six years in UK marketing there, then we went over to UBS Global Asset Management for a couple of years, um, and then returned back to Schroeder's, like a boomerang coming up 12 years ago.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um I've I came back originally as head of European marketing, so obviously quite relevant for today.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, since that time, I've also run the APAC region and also been looked after a number of central teams, and now my role is very much sort of the global distribution role.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um then following up on the question about the markets, yeah.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I totally agree with um Dinah in terms of it's been a year of two halves.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's almost been a year of three quarters and a quarter.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like the last quarter was it was a lot better um in terms of sentiment.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um it certainly doesn't feel like we're out of the woods yet, though.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there's sort of still a little bit of caution.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly we feel it, our fund managers feel it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: The um, you know, we had the Brexit deal, sorry, had the UK election um result looking good in December.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then about three days later, Boris goes and calls the 31st of December 2020 deadline, which has obviously put a bit more risk back in the market.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then our friend Donald last week, which uh last week um with the action Iran.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of geopolitical risk out there, um, but certainly um it feels a bit brighter than it did at the beginning of um 2019.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: So people aren't, do you don't think going to be rushing to release a huge amount new more budget sort of based on sort of a few few months of sort of buoyant market?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: You think everything will be pretty down pat already as to route what they're gonna be committing to and be quite cautious, you think?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're in a well, you just need to look at the results um period for the asset managers.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: You look at where the share prices are, you look at where profitability is.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a difficult couple of years.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we've been helped by, as as um Dinah mentioned, central banks have really helped markets stay up.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been good for asset managers' revenues.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: However, costs have gone up and everyone's just looking really closely at it.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um as ever, if you're in the middle of a blockbuster product period, you'll find that there'll be money, there'll be always be money to support that.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: But unless you've got a blockbuster, at the moment, I think we're really looking for more signs that the the industry's turned and the sales are really moving up before most groups will be absolutely committing too much more money to markets.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's some fundamental changes in the industry that nobody really feels they've got a good grasp on yet.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And this is coming really through MiFID2, and a complete change in the value chain where you've got um distributors now controlling the price that's being paid.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think most asset managers are very wary of price compression and that being an ongoing issue, and there's no doubt about it, passives are a real threat.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um the sales of passives last year were higher than ever before.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I did a quick calculation on equities, and if you add up all the net sales over the last 10 years of equity funds, it's net redemption.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's about 1.5 billion of outflow.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um so equities are really faring badly, and of course, equities are the big asset class, um, particularly for active managers.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of um asset managers are really having to rethink where they are going to offer value.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And at the moment, the the opportunities have seemed to lie in the thematics very clearly: alternatives, um, ESG being probably the big one.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: But if you look at active equity funds last year, out of the top 20 sectors, 15 were thematic sectors.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they're all in some way or other sort of capacity constrained.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: So having said that, the big one is global equity.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Global equity seems to be the go-to place for um most investors, and active funds are doing well there.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a pretty complex picture, really, if you're sort of looking at your marketing strategy for the region.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and actually, just as Diana was saying, that it's also um, I think one of the challenges you have is every other group's having the same conversations as well, too.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps not as much around thematics um in terms of like as individual strategies, but certainly it's an area of interest.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: But sustainability, everybody's talking about it, private assets, everybody's talking about it.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's a lot of hot money all chasing the same um strategies, and that becomes very, very challenging from a marketing perspective.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it's also making sure you stand out in what can become a very crowded market.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can think of some of our European competitors who are spending a huge amount of money across Europe um on promoting their um ESG responsible investing credentials.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so how do you compete with that?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a real challenge.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think as far as budgets are concerned, there are going to be budgets there, but it's going to be, it's not the sort of scatter gun approach of get profile out there as much as possible.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be much more targeted for most groups and targeted towards where you can really differentiate your business and your products.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you think groups are taking that much more focused approach?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how do you ultimately get it right as an asset manager looking at Europe, thinking about the different needs across the region?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: But the key is so often what we've seen is that groups are looking for quick fixes, and and the key to success in marketing in Europe and um and general business success is time.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: It takes time, and I think expectations are often too high, and that then causes um um strategies to shift and change.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So distributors don't really know what the groups that do that are really standing for.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those groups that have most success are willing to take it steady and slow and stick to their strategy, know who they are, and continue to promote that.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there's also this whole sort of central versus local debate.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And my argument would be actually it's a central and local approach because you know, in the center, we don't understand the individual nuances going from market to market.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you try and too much dictate from the center, you'll find that actually you end up with a one size doesn't fit any solutions.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas actually, if you listen from the bottom, um you know from the ground up, the people in the Spanish market, they're talking to their Spanish clients, the people in the Italian market, people speaking to the Italian market, uh, to their Italian clients.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that way you get a much, much better understanding of you look for consistencies, and if you're really lucky, everyone's pointing in the same direction at the same time.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that does happen.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've had it several times, it works, and Diana knows very well how that works.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also you need to be very mindful in making sure actually maybe Southern Europe's looking at these strategies, northern's looking at these, and so being willing in in the centre to work with your local marketing teams, your local sales teams, and actually just appreciating that Europe is different but sat but similar.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Pete, would you would you say that you're seeing technology or sort of kind of Martech playing more of a role then in order to drive a bit more efficiency so you can be a bit more local and a bit more nuanced without sort of maybe get be having a very kind of cumbersome big marketing team that are sort of trying to do everything for everyone?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think for Schroeder's about five years ago, we made a very conscious decision of two areas we wanted to go after and change.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the first one was content, so really improving our content much more clear in terms of the audiences we're talking to, whether it be the end consumer right through to the sophisticated investor, making sure that we're we're behaving more like a publisher.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and obviously the key part of that is digital as well.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we've spent the last couple of years upgrading our systems, making sure marketing, our marketing automation platform is um is the best in market.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because yeah, that like to your point, that personalized experience, we can produce content in the centre and get it out, get this content out to our local marketing teams.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the challenges that every single asset manager will have will be around translations, you know, because as good as Google translators these days, it doesn't quite get it, particularly in our rather rather sophisticated technical way we speak.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so actually, again, it just comes back to the point you need the local people who can then take that content and you know get it out in the most efficient way to clients.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for us, digital and and the websites is hugely important, it's been a big year investment.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think allowing people to select the information they want, you know, we the the consistent message we get back from fund selectors is they want more information, but not too much.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody's perspective on that will be different.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's a certain layer of information and data that I think has to be available quickly, but they have to be able to choose which bits they want because ultimately we're moving toward away from mass market marketing towards segments of one.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, distributors want to feel that you, as Schroeder, understand their specific needs, and they like to think they're different from everybody else.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, MiFID2 is putting more pressure on them to differentiate themselves and their offering.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the more you can do to help them be, you know, to be their trusted advisor, the the closer you are to winning their hearts and minds.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So technology really is the only way of dealing with that, particularly if you work in multiple markets like Schrodas, you have to be able to have touch points that that that are very personal.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the only way to do that is using technology.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was just saying, and there's even challenges around that these days as well, too, with gatekeepers.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so in the past you could actually email all the bank advisors, whereas now actually it all needs to go through one channel.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: So even digital, you need to make sure your comms are so good that that gatekeeper is going to actually bother to get it out to their out to your um effectively the people who are talking about your product.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um it's becoming more and more tricky to get that message through.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where it also links to who you want to be, or what audience you're you're trying to get your brand to resonate with.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um the is it the end consumer, or are you only really concerned about the those gatekeepers?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the messaging is going to be quite different for each market.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for larger groups, and our view is that increasingly the ability to um uh connect with the end user is becoming more and more important because it is the end user that's going that's driving the business, or at least making it easier for the distributors to sell.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if they're they're coming into the office saying, I want a Schroeder's fund, that that that's going to make Schroeder's much more popular with the distributor.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this sort of simple um simple logic there, but but but getting that communication out to consumers is is expensive.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And for um smaller groups, unless there are boutiques with a really strong local presence, um this is really a game, I think, for the the big boys.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's also it's also potentially a bit of a minefield as well, isn't it, from a regulatory perspective?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, more and more the regulators are looking, and we all know about fair, clear, and misleading.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how do you communicate in in that way to all these different audiences across Europe and make sure that it is in that structure that people can understand without sort of heading down the advice track?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's one of the big challenges that we always find in sort of communicating with the end consumer.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've bought it bought in specialist skills, people who used to write for, you know, for instance, the telegraph to do that, but it's a different way of thinking, particularly if you've got fund managers writing.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but but in a way, I think this is the the next evolution to marketing for asset managers or for some, is are you selling specific component products for somebody else to mold into um into some kind of solution for their clients?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or or are you going to be um really building more of this solution concept?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think we are having to head, I think asset managers will have to head more in that direction, not just in terms of producing mixed asset funds, but in terms of producing model portfolios that are then passed on to uh distributors or used directly by end consumers.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you hear that term outcome-oriented being used so much more these days.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you can understand it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you talk to your family who are not involved in the industry, and they all they know is they look at a bank account and they see, well, at the moment, about 1% if they're lucky, whereas actually what they're looking for is maybe four or five percent, something above inflation.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can deliver that in a in a model that works consistently year after year, I mean, I know it's the holy grail, but I think that's sort of what people are looking for, isn't it?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: To your point, Donna.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: But is it I guess given that in order to provide that range of solutions and outcomes, does that, to your point, make Europe more of a game really for the big boys?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh really no?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: You think there is the route for the boutiques that's I can't go down that route.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are many um very strong, mid-sized managers that have clearly got the message that they've got to deliver good service and differentiate.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they have their brands have been growing and their their sales flows have been building.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the this there is um opportunity for all sizes of business, but but not for those businesses that simply go out and say we're good at asset management.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to prove your value.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I must be, you know, I do agree with you, Diana.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you've got a great proposition, it can, you know, boutiques boutiques are decent.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And not overreach, I think sometimes.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, I I hear sometimes of boutiques looking at the region, wanting to do too much in the region.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, I think part of it is taking your time, being patient, having a long-term view, picking a couple of markets, getting that really right, and then and then broadening out.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I I you know, we certainly see maybe, dare I say, a couple of the US managers, okay, not boutique, but you know, still approaching uh Europe in a sort of one-market approach.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there are some, again, going back to the same old pitfalls, really, where it's just you know, you just end up not really landing your messaging with anybody.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it it it it needs to be even more refined than picking one or two appropriate markets.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you in Germany, you put one sales guy in Germany, they can cover Frankfurt, maybe, but Germany's a big federal market, and and you're not going to cover the whole market.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you you look at many of these markets and you need to be focused on specific channels.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, which part of that business are you really going to target your product at?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so it's not just market, it needs to be channel level, and even within each market, specific regions, I think, if if you're small.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, anybody coming to the UK or you know, sitting here in the UK ourselves, you would say you need to take that approach.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know why we think it's any different when we when we look at Germany, as you say, or sort of more broadly.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But we do see a lot of smaller US managers coming to Europe and yes, wanting to apply exactly the same approach as they they do in the US.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it it's even and down to marketing as well, um, particularly on the marketing side, it it does not work.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we look at the skills that you need in your marketers on on the ground, you know, assuming we take this sort of local and central approach.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's changed, Pete, over time in terms of um, you know, there is there needs to be a lot more understanding is around the client, around the client experience, doing this sort of much more um specific engagement, sort of one on one to your point around sort of key gatekeepers.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you think that's changed the skill sets you need on the ground to be have a more of a strategic element than perhaps we might have done before, where it'd been a bit more executionally led?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I mean I think it's probably a bit of both, if I'm honest.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um the skills of the marketing team has had to change over the years.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you went back 20 years, um, it was all about organizing events, putting adverts in paper, where do you allocate your budget?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So still a lot of that still happens today, but now going back to the point about digital and content.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: So our local marketing teams have to really understand the products, they've got to be able to translate that content, and most importantly, they actually need to be doing the analytics as well, too, and sort of speaking, looking at the data, what's selling, what's not selling, um, and working with the sales team, distributors, making sure you know we've got the right products on the shelf.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a real jack of all trades now to be a local marketing person, um, and also making sure they've got really good relationships with the centre, um, because that's going to really help them out as well, too.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the things we've found, and this this sort of comes back to the point you were making, Peter, about the level of knowledge your your marketing people have to work with.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen significant success from groups with salespeople who are really product experts.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um the sort of response we get from um uh the fund selectors is that if if you've got salespeople who can be that well informed, you don't need to draw on the fund manager time so much.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's a very efficient um use of this uh of all the resources, but that salesperson needs to be very well fed by by marketing.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's probably true.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think the role of marketer has changed a bit, and the role of the sort of salesperson has changed a bit in terms of being a more technical, sort of product specific on both sides.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, and and also, I mean, go back to your point about digital, a lot of the sales process has actually already happened with the client.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you know, when all all the all the fund selectors these days, they've got all the data they need.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: They've looked at the product, they've looked at everything about it, they've analysed performance, they've analysed the holding.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: So actually the job for the salesperson now is that sort of all often it's around the closing, isn't it?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, because a lot of that that preparation has been done, whether by marketing or by the operations team or whoever's producing the fact sheets, reports, etc.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a very, very different world.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I do think also there's a better recognition of the role of marketing uh as critical to success in an asset management uh business.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: In in the old days, it was get out the fact sheets.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, full stop.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Getting out the fact sheets.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's still important, but there is a recognition that there's quite a lot more to it than that.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and to your comments right at the beginning, Dana, maybe being able to talk to some of those thematics and the sort of the ESG credibility that they may have, etc., there's a much broader dialogue uh that we're we're having.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'd love to just sort of touch back on the SG, if we may, because um it's interesting, and when we talk about the investors themselves versus the gatekeepers, um I think in some markets you see a bit of a dislocation between, you know, you're having maybe 80% of your conversations about your ESG kind of credentials, but only 6% of your sales are sort of related that way.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Do we see a similar sort of situation across Europe?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it is it very nuanced in terms of how I think that's probably still the case, don't you?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: That that although the the conversation about ESG is is really very important, the actual amount of revenues coming in is still quite quite small.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, although if I recall a distribution dialogue session.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's growing.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do I recall that a number of the funds that were best selling had sustainable, whatever it meant, in the in the label?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um yes, uh, but I guess the flip side to that is that what fund is not gonna be sustainable in about two to three years' time because everyone's doing it.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's got to do it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's yeah, everyone's got to do it.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's quite topical at the moment.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we're certainly seeing good interest in it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think we've also got in the back of our minds that it's all gonna need to be at some stage soon anyway, isn't it?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I think all this has evolved from increasing complexity at the product level, increasing concern that the manager um that the managers are controlling the funds in the way that you think they should be.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um and at the same time you've got the environmental issues becoming much more loudly discussed.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um ESG, I think, is a way of asset managers, if they really embrace it properly, and and it is part of their brand, it's not just a tick box exercise.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is a way of um really and really building the the the trust credentials of groups, and so I think you have multiple layers, and you're right, you know, the conversation with almost every group we've talked to is about ESG and what they should do, and almost every group will say to us that it's embedded in the system.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: But are you articulating that in a meaningful way?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And let's not forget the little ruck that occurred at the end of last year with funds that were um coming up yeah, the greenwashing issue.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think I think you have the product level tick box exercise, but those groups that really want to make a difference need to build, need to have it well built into their brand.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's as it is a real opportunity as well, because every bit of research you look at the moment in terms of brands around this, no one's got a clear lead yet in terms of the major asset managers.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think we're all we're all we're all trying to play in that space.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: We we certainly, you know, uh making sure our credentials are out there and our messaging around this is it's it's it's very, very important.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly, it it strikes me that you know the Dutch players, for instance, have been sort of obviously leading the charge in this regard.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And certainly I've heard from a few in that market to your point, Pete, around, you know, we've got to think about what our next what the next differentiation is because well, yes, because it's gonna be everybody's brands.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so you know the world keeps on turning and all that.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um thank you both so much for such a sort of broad-ranging discussion.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I just I wondered, given that and the kind of the challenges ahead, I guess, as everybody thinks about their brands and their product and their approach to the market.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any tips for the for any marketers thinking about the region and even you know key things to not get wrong, I guess, as much as things to really kind of keep a kind of close eye on or sort of do right?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to say one word because actually you may have some comment on the Peter, and that is outsource.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: When this I love a word like that, don't sort of smell fit.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: I see it because you know it it is such a complex world now, and there are it it it you don't have to be good at everything.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think it is the very availability of many outsourcing opportunities that will allow boutiques and mid-sized groups still to be very good.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it it I think the issue is at the product level as well as um all the ancillary um activities that are necessary to deliver those products.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, the it is possible to use um external sources for for those activities that where you don't have the skills.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know any good companies?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh let me think.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so my my advice for um for marketers as well, I think probably the big one would be relationships, relationships, relationships.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's very it's it's it's it's easy.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's not easy, but it's obvious you need to build relationships with the marketing people in the different offices.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, what can be so equally as important, if not more important, is build those relationships with the local salespeople, build it with the country heads as well too, because then you're actually getting a much, much better picture of what's going on the ground in terms of sales, they're talking to the clients, they can relate that back to you.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I guess, I guess it's making sure you're not being so center-only or centre first to use a Donald Trump sort of isn't.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but relationships will be a key message.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I guess I guess also now I can do a sales pitch for you, Dina.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Just make sure you're keeping up abreast of what's going on in the market.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the sales sense is so important, you know, and you need to you can spot those trends, you know, there's there's future flows data as well, too.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: So just make make sure you're keeping up to speed with what's going on in your markets and build those relationships with the with the local teams.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Take them out for a servaser or a beer or whatever.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: So whilst we're uh we're on a roll, I've got you in a room.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, perhaps you guys, um, having done a few tips for marketers, maybe you could also point to best practice.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: What do you see in the market as the best practice in in the region?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Diana?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: There is no one group that has it all right, that's for sure.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh different groups do different things extremely well.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a number of dimensions here.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: One is speed to market with information, and I think most groups pretty much understand what's needed there.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: The boutiques will be able to get their fact sheets out in a week, larger groups will not, but but there is an understanding.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so most groups are pretty efficient, but this is what um everybody continues to ask for faster turnaround of information.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's also detail um and and how much information to give.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And this particularly is portfolio um constituents, you know, what what's going into your portfolio, what changes are being made, and how quickly are you communicating that.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think there are a number of groups that have got one or two things really um really well done, they and and they have become differentiators.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll give you some examples.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's no doubt that JP Morgan's market book, I can never remember the name, but Guide to Markets, is a fabulous tool and one that fund selectors absolutely love.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it it what it does is it connects the whole sales message with what's going on in the markets.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very, very effective.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think MNG's um Bon Vigilante blog has been very effective.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think um the work that you've been doing at Schroeder's just on the website and the communications, the consumer communications or the consumer research that you've been doing is a great educational tool.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, Global and Vista Study.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Every the beauty of that is that it it gives you an opportunity to build so many stories throughout the year.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's a it is a massive exercise.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so each group will be will have little things that they that that that they they have built that is is unique to them.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say to other marketers, don't try and do the same.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Find your own thing.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: You need to find your own thing that that that uh resonates with what you're trying to achieve and with the client base you're trying to pitch to.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Diana.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: The checks in the mail.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um what would I say?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I th I think in terms of you know the best practices is the groups who also look at market research and look at it country by country and as a regional level and work out what other groups are doing well in other markets.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's a lot that can be learned from that.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um go back to my earlier points about the digital platform.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got to have best and best in um market for that as well, too.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: It just it just totally changes the way you operate.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also a funny one as well, too, is learning from other industries.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Where um, you know, we are a bit behind the eight ball in the asset management one.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're we're sort of we're we're doing our best to catch up, but actually, there's a lot you can learn from like the tech industry.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and indeed at Alfred NAPAC, we've just hired someone who um about a year ago who uh who had a background in in digital as opposed to asset management.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, and the amount of knowledge that she can bring into the all into the organization is amazing and different way of thinking about things.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: That gives everybody a lot to research and look into, and uh, thank you very much again for your time and your insights and thoughts.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.